Latest / The Brewery Underground Podcast | Craft Beer Interviews, Reviews and Beer Travel / Great Lakes Brewing Company Part 1 - (Re-Release of Episode 47)

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Great Lakes Brewing Company Part 1 - (Re-Release of Episode 47) · The Brewery Underground Podcast | Craft Beer Interviews, Reviews and Beer Travel

• 0:10
  Back on the Brewery Underground podcast today and I think we
• 0:14
  have a great episode coming up. And hey, Scott Taron, you are
• 0:18
  you feeling pretty great today? Feeling great dude.
• 0:22
  This is, We've been looking forward to this one for a for a
• 0:24
  little bit and we have some friends in the Cleveland area
• 0:28
  who are very excited about this one too.
• 0:30
  So I think this one's going to get a little bit of attention
• 0:32
  for us. It's going to be a great episode
• 0:35
  because we have on today Michael Williams, who is the company
• 0:40
  educator, historian, archivist and advanced cicerone for Great
• 0:46
  Lakes Brewing in Cleveland, OH. Michael, welcome in.
• 0:50
  How are you? I'm great.
• 0:52
  Thanks, Steve. Thanks, Scott.
• 0:53
  Thanks for having me. It's a pleasure to be here.
• 0:55
  Yes. Sir, thank you for being.
• 0:56
  Here it is gonna be great. I can.
• 0:58
  Yeah. I see the theme we're building
• 1:00
  right now. Yeah.
• 1:03
  Did we get your title right? Everything at.
• 1:06
  The Yeah, you know, I've got a marketing title, but for this
• 1:13
  kind of stuff, I like to focus on the Cicerone and, and the
• 1:16
  historian and all that stuff too.
• 1:18
  I, I, I got a hybrid role at the brewery.
• 1:20
  I'd kind of do it all. So depending who I'm talking to,
• 1:23
  I've all the other titles are made-up the stuff I, all the
• 1:25
  stuff I sent you is made-up titles, so.
• 1:27
  But that's what I want to be called so.
• 1:30
  When I saw historian on there, I was like hell yeah.
• 1:33
  Because you guys have, we'll get to that.
• 1:34
  But you guys have some history there.
• 1:37
  The city, the building, the whole thing.
• 1:38
  We'll get into all that. So that's this is going to be
• 1:40
  perfect. Yeah, we love it.
• 1:43
  I was just wondering how you fit all that on a business card?
• 1:47
  Just it's just the marketing title and the advances around
• 1:50
  because. I hear ya.
• 1:51
  All right, that's the big, that's the big time stuff right
• 1:53
  there. There you.
• 1:54
  Go. Well be before we before we
• 1:57
  toast our beer, we have to thank you officially for the beer
• 2:01
  because you sent us some beer. You sent both of us the Midwest
• 2:05
  IPA, the Vivacious, the Juicy Vivacious, the Christmas Ale,
• 2:12
  the Cran Orange Wheat and the Dortmunder Gold.
• 2:16
  So we appreciate that. And I, I am starting off today.
• 2:20
  I am actually starting with the Dortmunder Gold Lager.
• 2:25
  Beautiful. That's a great place to start.
• 2:28
  Yes, cheers thank you for that and I have got because I I
• 2:31
  couldn't wait any longer. I was telling you earlier that
• 2:34
  I've been looking at this thing for almost a week in the fridge
• 2:36
  and I've had to skip past it. So the juicy vibacies, which is
• 2:39
  9.5% and I've had vibacious, I know how good that is.
• 2:43
  So this is going to be just as good.
• 2:46
  Yeah, I'm, I'm drinking Midwest. All right, Yeah.
• 2:51
  I was, I was looking on my untapped app the other day and
• 2:56
  I've had I've had some Great Lakes and I've raided Great
• 2:58
  Lakes. I the last time I had the gold
• 3:01
  lager was like 2020. So it's been a couple of years
• 3:04
  and I'm drinking it now and it's pretty good so.
• 3:07
  Beautiful looking forward. To see what are you?
• 3:09
  What are you drinking yours out of?
• 3:11
  Oh, yeah, the vivacious glass that was given to me by Keith
• 3:16
  and Elizabeth, our friends in the beer community in Cleveland,
• 3:20
  OH because they've sent us some some beer before.
• 3:23
  And yeah, so yeah, definitely you, you got the same thing,
• 3:27
  right? Yeah, I got the same thing.
• 3:29
  And we're not just sucking up because you sent us beer.
• 3:31
  We had these glasses. Right, I know.
• 3:33
  We do, we do love the beer, so this is makes it even more
• 3:37
  special that you're on with us. Warm my heart when I, when I saw
• 3:40
  the glass, yeah. And the fact that you guys are
• 3:42
  like, all right, like, you know, Vibacious is the new one too.
• 3:46
  And you're like, oh, big vibacious.
• 3:48
  Yes, we're doing it, yeah. Oh, it's, it's, it's killer.
• 3:51
  And everybody that's had it, like we've had it with from them
• 3:53
  and, and, and they're big fans of it up there.
• 3:55
  And every time we get it, we're like, yes, thank you very much.
• 3:58
  Beautiful and Vibacious is one of those that that I actually
• 4:01
  have on here that I was going to get to at some point during the
• 4:05
  podcast. But I'll just say it here, and
• 4:06
  I've said it on other podcasts as well, over this past year or
• 4:10
  so, I've become more of an IPA guy, and Vibacious is actually
• 4:14
  one of the ones that really has made me go yeah, now I'm
• 4:18
  starting to. Understand, but there we go.
• 4:20
  So. Really.
• 4:21
  Seriously, you know, I it's a, it's a great IPA and I've
• 4:27
  enjoyed it. And then the other one that you
• 4:29
  get the juicy one, I'm I'm sure I'm probably going to have that
• 4:32
  in the next couple of days. So.
• 4:33
  Oh yeah, yeah. What's?
• 4:34
  What's another reason that that vibacious is so lovely is it's
• 4:38
  what it's 9 plus I don't know if I don't remember if it's 9 or 9
• 4:41
  1/2 there and it's man, it does not drink like it.
• 4:44
  It it absolutely does not. Yeah, it's it.
• 4:46
  The regular Vibacious is 9. Juicy's got a little boost up to
• 4:49
  95, but they're both. I mean, if you do the IBU thing,
• 4:54
  they're both pretty low in the 40s, so very that's and that's
• 4:59
  all by design, my friend. All by design, yeah.
• 5:02
  All part of the master plan. Yeah.
• 5:06
  Of all the beer that you that that that Great Lakes serves
• 5:09
  out, do you have a personal favorite?
• 5:11
  Is there one that you go man, if if, if you hold a gun to my
• 5:15
  head, this is the one I'm saying I like the most.
• 5:18
  OK, Well, if there's the gun to the head, then I have to
• 5:20
  actually answer it because I was going to give the, you know,
• 5:25
  change of seasonal, all that stuff.
• 5:28
  Like I can say right now without a doubt.
• 5:31
  And it's not like I'm, I'm one of our marketing guys and I help
• 5:35
  the sales team and I do the FaceTime stuff and all that.
• 5:38
  But I really do love Midwest IPA.
• 5:42
  So I'm sure we'll get to at some point.
• 5:45
  That's the current fave. And then if you want to do like
• 5:48
  the long term, like grand scheme of thing, I've probably had more
• 5:56
  Oktoberfest than anything else over the years.
• 5:59
  So like Midwest is newer, of course, it just came out this
• 6:02
  year. It's got 12 years of Oktoberfest
• 6:05
  drinking to catch up to. So yeah, our Oktoberfest is,
• 6:10
  it's just, it's just either the perfect lager, multi, all that
• 6:15
  stuff. It's that's got to be my overall
• 6:18
  favorite. So I gave you 2.
• 6:20
  So maybe I maybe I'm maybe I'm done.
• 6:22
  Yeah. Well.
• 6:22
  You're talking my language. I just posted A blog, yes,
• 6:25
  yesterday on basically kind of my tribute to Oktoberfest
• 6:31
  season, which is starting to wind down and all the, the
• 6:34
  different offerings that I had this Oktoberfest.
• 6:37
  Unfortunately, I didn't have Great Lakes, so that's gonna
• 6:39
  have to be on my my bucket list. Bucket list for next year.
• 6:43
  Yeah, and the and the year and the year to come.
• 6:45
  But hey, wanna ask you, how long have you been Great Lakes?
• 6:50
  Sure. Yeah.
• 6:51
  So I, I have been at Great Lakes for a relatively short amount of
• 6:57
  time. I've been there for 12 years.
• 6:58
  So OK compared so, and I say that because of course the
• 7:03
  brewery is 36 years old and we have people at Great Lakes
• 7:08
  who've been there for I think at least 33 plus years.
• 7:13
  I got a couple of bartenders that are well over 30 years,
• 7:16
  Brewmasters, 28 years, I think first year for 26 years.
• 7:21
  So I tease myself because 12 years is a long time, right?
• 7:25
  But a Great Lakes, man, I don't know.
• 7:27
  It's it's not actually that long.
• 7:31
  So it's amazing. It's a blink of an eye. 2012 I
• 7:34
  was bussing tables while I was looking for teaching jobs at
• 7:40
  local high schools. And then next thing I know I'm,
• 7:44
  I'm doing the beard, the beard teaching thing in 2024.
• 7:49
  So it's pretty cool. It's like it's that perfect meld
• 7:52
  you found, you reckon a brew, but you wanted to teach and it
• 7:55
  just worked out that the two things just came together.
• 7:58
  It did, yeah. And I was my high school is
• 8:00
  actually, if you're, are you guys familiar with the
• 8:03
  neighborhood that Great Lakes is in the brew pub and all that.
• 8:07
  I've been up to Cleveland, so you guys aren't that far from
• 8:10
  the actual, you know, the, the, the Great Lakes area up near by
• 8:16
  where the the ballpark is and all that.
• 8:18
  So. In that general.
• 8:19
  Region. Yeah, I've been in that general
• 8:21
  region, yeah. So right across, yeah, we're
• 8:22
  right across the the river from downtown and there's one of the
• 8:26
  big all boys high schools is right on the other side of the
• 8:30
  street from the brewery. So I actually spent a year
• 8:33
  working there kind of helping them out and I went to the pub
• 8:37
  like twice a week and then I needed a job and they're like,
• 8:39
  OK, just come here on this side. So.
• 8:43
  It's it's like it was meant to be.
• 8:45
  Yeah, it's fun how that worked out.
• 8:46
  And then basically my, my whole trajectory, I started doing, you
• 8:52
  know, I started serving tables and I was a craft beer fan and
• 8:55
  all that. I was, I mean, in 20.
• 8:59
  What? Oh my goodness.
• 9:01
  Math younger 20s at the time. So I was kind of like exploring
• 9:06
  all the more full flavored styles that were out there, Yeti
• 9:10
  from Great Divide, Maharaja from Avery, all that stuff.
• 9:13
  So classics, 20 tons classics. And once I was serving, I was
• 9:18
  like, I can probably figure out a role at Great Lakes is for one
• 9:21
  of the one of the wonderful things about Great Lakes is that
• 9:24
  we are we may we probably seem big, right guys like we seem
• 9:29
  like we're a big brewery. Yeah, and maybe compared to the
• 9:34
  other, you know, 9500 of the other breweries in the country
• 9:37
  were big, but we're still a small family run company.
• 9:41
  We're still, we're still owned by the Co founders, Pat and Dan
• 9:44
  Conway. So there's room to kind of
• 9:46
  create your own role if you're if you show you're passionate
• 9:48
  and you have a certain skill set and there's a need, right.
• 9:51
  So I did public tours for a couple years and then a couple
• 9:56
  people who worked, who did training at the brewery, they
• 10:01
  all had different jobs too. You know, there's like a Brewer
• 10:03
  who did some training, there is one of my fellow tour guides who
• 10:07
  kind of did some of this stuff and they all left.
• 10:09
  So I'm like, I'll just do all that myself.
• 10:12
  And I basically basically made this role and then I picked up
• 10:15
  other stuff as the years have gone on.
• 10:17
  So some marketing stuff, I write some blogs as well.
• 10:22
  I try to channel my educational passion, you know, through oh,
• 10:27
  I'm going to be writing a pastry style blog coming up.
• 10:29
  So go because we got one of those now and I go out and help
• 10:36
  the sales team with stuff. So Oh, like like the beer
• 10:40
  dinner. I just the beer dinner I did on
• 10:41
  Tuesday we were talking about before the show started.
• 10:43
  So so that's kind of my trajectory how I got to where I
• 10:46
  am pretty cool. I'm.
• 10:49
  I'm curious, you know, I was doing a little research a couple
• 10:52
  days ago, but there's I wanted to ask you this question instead
• 10:57
  of like saying this is what I found online.
• 11:00
  You all are you all do have a ranking of where you rank as far
• 11:04
  as like the breweries across the country.
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  Where? Where is it recognized that you
• 11:10
  all stand of where you rank in the country of breweries?
• 11:14
  Yeah. So like if you the the list that
• 11:16
  most people, well for my world at least the people referred to
• 11:20
  as that Brewers Association list and that's like the our trade
• 11:23
  org or a Trade Organization. So according to that and that's,
• 11:27
  you know, the criteria, you're a small independent brewery.
• 11:30
  Again, small a relative term, right.
• 11:34
  We're not one of the large, you know, international conglomerate
• 11:39
  type breweries and all that. So we're small and we're still
• 11:42
  independent, so owned by the original founders and all that
• 11:44
  kind of thing. So we were 17 on that list last
• 11:49
  year. And there's really not that many
• 11:52
  brewing companies outside of what's recognized as craft.
• 11:55
  So, well, they're starting to become a few more, but so we're
• 12:00
  still in the top thirty overall breweries in the United States.
• 12:03
  Did I see again that scale, that scales like this?
• 12:06
  Yeah. Are you considered like regional
• 12:09
  brewery? Is that what I saw based on the
• 12:11
  volume that you produce? Yeah, we fit into the regional
• 12:14
  categories. So they go, Oh my goodness, I
• 12:19
  want to say it's, it's like 50. So you know, measuring in
• 12:22
  Barrelidge on the production side, we we are at like 130,000
• 12:30
  barrels on average to be a regional, it's like 15,000,
• 12:34
  something like that. Everything above that is pretty
• 12:36
  much, if I'm not mistaken, is would be considered a regional
• 12:41
  brewery. So it might be something higher
• 12:43
  than that, but I'm pretty sure that's the limit.
• 12:46
  You know, it's like below that. It's like brew pub, nano brewery
• 12:49
  and things like that, Yeah. But still consider you guys
• 12:53
  still at large brewery, especially from the outside
• 12:55
  looking at them, you guys make a lot of beer you.
• 12:57
  Make a lot of different beer. Oh, yeah.
• 12:59
  And it's all it's all relative to what you're thinking about.
• 13:01
  Yeah. Again, compared to most of the
• 13:03
  brewery, like most breweries where you guys are in Tennessee,
• 13:06
  like yes, we are, we are much larger than they are, yes.
• 13:10
  Yeah. I just drive by.
• 13:12
  I drive by the the AB plant in Columbus that I'm like, that's a
• 13:15
  big brewery right there. That's a different thing all
• 13:20
  together, isn't it? Yeah, it is.
• 13:22
  Yeah. Well, you said, you know, we're
• 13:23
  in Nashville, you know, you're in Cleveland, but we know
• 13:26
  there's people that, you know, listen to this podcast
• 13:28
  throughout the country. And one of the things that I've,
• 13:31
  you know, you, I think Scott and I both, we were talking about
• 13:34
  this a couple days ago when we were discussing this podcast was
• 13:38
  like, there's so much history with your brewery, Great Lakes.
• 13:43
  You guys opened as a brew pub and a microbrewery in 1988.
• 13:48
  If I'm not mistaken, it was the first one in Ohio.
• 13:51
  Is that right? Yes, when, when we opened, we
• 13:54
  were definitely first in Cleveland.
• 13:55
  I'm pretty sure we were the first in Ohio too.
• 13:57
  So last in Cleveland proper, we had a brewery operating until
• 14:03
  1984 that closed down. And of course the dark ages
• 14:07
  couple years there, there was there was no beer being brewed
• 14:10
  in town. And I believe that that brewery
• 14:12
  was really like a Philly brewery's outpost up here.
• 14:15
  So we're definitely the ones who brought beer, true Cleveland
• 14:21
  beer brewing back after kind of the dark ages ended there.
• 14:26
  So and the brothers, yeah, Pat and Dan, like they were regular
• 14:32
  guys. You guys probably know the
• 14:35
  stories of some of the others, right?
• 14:37
  Like your Larry Bells and Ken Grossman's and so on, home
• 14:41
  Brewers and all that. But Pat and Dan just really
• 14:44
  appreciated beer, loved it, traveled to Europe like many
• 14:48
  others did and experienced the traditional beer styles over
• 14:50
  there and just wanted to bring that experience to their
• 14:54
  hometown of Cleveland. So they're from the near West
• 14:56
  side of town. So they opened up that little
• 14:59
  brew you mentioned the brew pub. That's where we started.
• 15:03
  And again, it's it's in that Ohio City neighborhood down
• 15:07
  again stone's throw away from from downtown Cleveland.
• 15:12
  And that's where everything was brewed and served for the first
• 15:15
  six years. So from 88 to 92, we were just
• 15:18
  brew pub. You are drinking one of our
• 15:22
  first 2 beers, the Dortmunder Gold.
• 15:26
  LE and S Amber lager was the other one.
• 15:30
  So our first brewmaster was his name is Stain Johnson.
• 15:34
  So very German. German surprise surprise.
• 15:38
  We got some German stuff. I mean you know LE and S is
• 15:40
  Vienna, but that's for all tons and purposes German style logger
• 15:43
  there so. Right.
• 15:45
  You know what I mean? Let's not get to.
• 15:46
  Technically there is no. Region.
• 15:47
  Yeah, sure. It's the region.
• 15:49
  It's the region, yeah. It's the same techniques and all
• 15:51
  that. So you're right and we kind of
• 15:54
  grew from there, so, but it's really cool families listen out
• 15:58
  there. If you're close to Cleveland or
• 15:59
  whatever the we still operate from the pub today.
• 16:04
  That original system is still used for some public exclusive
• 16:07
  beers that you won't find outside the walls of the pub,
• 16:10
  which is tougher as a larger craft Brewer.
• 16:12
  That's tougher for us to do the small batch stuff, you know, so
• 16:17
  wonderful locally sourced food. We got some farmland right
• 16:20
  around the corner in the neighborhood that we source
• 16:22
  produce from all that kind of stuff.
• 16:25
  But yeah, we were the first to kind of like, led the charge in
• 16:30
  Ohio and like, even really throughout the region.
• 16:32
  You guys are so close in Tennessee.
• 16:34
  You're. Yeah.
• 16:35
  Yeah. Part of.
• 16:38
  Your building Some more history for your building though.
• 16:39
  Isn't your building currently kind of fused together from
• 16:43
  other previous buildings like market Tavern and there was a
• 16:47
  like a feed and seed or something at one point?
• 16:49
  Don't you sit on all that land now.
• 16:52
  We do, yeah. So it's it's a really charming
• 16:54
  little space. So like the buildings down there
• 16:56
  in the neighborhood are 19th century.
• 17:00
  That's when a lot of German and Irish immigrants would have been
• 17:05
  crossing the Atlantic, coming to the New World for, you know, a
• 17:08
  fresh start and all that. So Ohio City, the neighborhood
• 17:12
  in Cleveland where the brewery's located was one of the areas
• 17:17
  where a lot of those immigrants settled.
• 17:19
  And so at that time when the buildings that comprise our pub
• 17:23
  were, were built, there were roughly 10 breweries in the
• 17:27
  neighborhood, which is very cool.
• 17:30
  We're actually in, I'm sure we'll get to the, I don't want
• 17:32
  to jump at it too far, but the, the production facility itself
• 17:35
  is in an actual brewery building from that time.
• 17:39
  But then the, the pub is comprised of three buildings.
• 17:43
  They were separate and of course separate businesses in the past.
• 17:46
  And then the brothers, they occupied 2 of them at 1st and
• 17:51
  add the third one later on. So you mentioned the Market
• 17:55
  Tavern. That's where our main, main tap
• 17:57
  room is. There's this beautiful old
• 18:01
  school tiger mahogany bar in there that dates back to the
• 18:05
  turn of you know, the turn of the century, right, the last
• 18:09
  one. Yep, not this one.
• 18:12
  It's still easy to say that phrase.
• 18:14
  So nineteen O 1 and that was basically a famous watering hole
• 18:18
  in Cleveland throughout its history.
• 18:20
  So and it still is still is 1 today famed the fame story.
• 18:26
  If you guys saw this already or not, but is so the reason why
• 18:31
  the Amber Lager is named for Eliot Ness is because he was
• 18:36
  actually a frequent patron of that bar, the Market Street
• 18:41
  Tavern. And we inherited the legend that
• 18:45
  alien has of course, famed for Bustin, Capone, prohibition, all
• 18:48
  that stuff. The legend that we received from
• 18:52
  the previous proprietors that Ness may have been shot at in
• 18:56
  the Tavern because some people hated his guts, right?
• 19:00
  So it makes sense. They of course have no way to
• 19:04
  prove that the bullet holes are linked to him in any way other
• 19:08
  than we know he probably would not have been shooting.
• 19:11
  We know that because Pat and Dan, the Co owners, their
• 19:15
  grandmother was his stenographer.
• 19:19
  No. So there's a very direct
• 19:21
  connection, and I'm sure she heard some crazy stuff.
• 19:25
  Yeah, the Mother, Mother, mother.
• 19:27
  Yeah. So, but direct relation to the
• 19:29
  Conways. And she said that Nest did not
• 19:33
  carry a gun off duty, so he didn't shoot.
• 19:35
  But people, people going to the pub and I still see this all the
• 19:38
  time. When I was a server, I certainly
• 19:40
  saw it all the time. People walk in and you kind of
• 19:42
  see them. I know they're talking about the
• 19:46
  bullet holes and then they get a beer and it's just, it's great.
• 19:49
  It works out. Are they so?
• 19:50
  Are they, are they marked like on the wall or you just kind of
• 19:53
  got to find them or is there like a Oh yeah.
• 19:55
  There's a little a little bang flag.
• 19:57
  It's a little red flag that just says bang.
• 19:59
  So oh that is so cool. And you know, I have to say,
• 20:03
  because I probably have been drinking Midwest or I'm sorry,
• 20:06
  Midwest. Well, I'm drinking Midwest, of
• 20:08
  course, but Great Lakes, I'm going to say maybe 10 years.
• 20:11
  And it, it's funny when you mentioned the Elliot Ness,
• 20:15
  because I'm pretty sure it's either that or the Edmund
• 20:18
  Fitzgerald were the first two that I ever had that I bought in
• 20:22
  hand when I was in Ohio. And even the names of them, I
• 20:25
  was like, I've got to try these just for the names alone, you
• 20:29
  know, I mean, obviously, you know, you're gonna try a
• 20:31
  different beer. And I'd heard about Great Lakes
• 20:33
  and I got hooked. I got hooked on those.
• 20:36
  And so after that, it's, it's been, it's been a great time
• 20:40
  trying some of the other beers and the offerings that I'm able
• 20:43
  to get when I get, you know, usually up in Ohio and get some
• 20:45
  of those. Yeah, Yep.
• 20:47
  That's is another one of the OGSI mean that's oh, that guy is
• 20:51
  solid as rock. That's when it comes to metals.
• 20:54
  That's our most awarded beer. So it's won five medals at at
• 20:57
  Great American Beer Fest. So the most most awarded Porter
• 21:00
  in the United States. No big deal.
• 21:02
  Yeah, it's a beautiful. Thing like.
• 21:04
  That yeah, no big deal. Yeah, it's fine.
• 21:07
  So but those are like, and those beers are like Elliot Ness, the
• 21:11
  dorm under you're drinking Evan Fitzgerald.
• 21:14
  Those are the that was what craft beer was all about when we
• 21:16
  started right in the 80s. Like we were kind of making this
• 21:21
  stuff up. It was like, well, we don't want
• 21:23
  to do the regular light loggers and stuff.
• 21:26
  Ironically enough, we now make a light logger, but that's a whole
• 21:29
  other thing, you know, full the full circle nature of all this.
• 21:34
  But it was all about making our own takes on classic European
• 21:39
  styles. So those, you know, a dorm under
• 21:41
  style logger, Vienna style logger, robust Porter and so on,
• 21:46
  kind of what we built ourselves on for the 1st 30 plus years.
• 21:50
  And it's still what, you know, most people know for us today.
• 21:52
  But then we have all the cool, you know, you guys are tasting
• 21:55
  some of the flashy new stuff that we've been putting out in
• 21:58
  recent years. And that's what's part of what I
• 22:01
  love about what we do at Great Lakes is that we've kept the
• 22:09
  tradition and the history while still also being creative,
• 22:16
  innovative and providing, you know, beers for people to enjoy
• 22:20
  the next 30 years from now as well.
• 22:22
  So I think it's really cool about what we do.
• 22:25
  I think that was going to be one of my questions really.
• 22:27
  Like we've talked about this so much on this podcast.
• 22:31
  We've talked to brewery owners around here of like and, and
• 22:35
  ones that have been around for as long as you all have.
• 22:38
  Like you start out in the beginning and you're doing this
• 22:40
  core, and then how do you go about keeping up with all the
• 22:44
  changes? And we know right now there are
• 22:46
  so many different changes in the craft beer industry.
• 22:48
  It's not just about craft beer anymore.
• 22:51
  Yeah, it's, it's not easy, especially like, you know, for
• 22:56
  us when we had so much success with a certain approach for a
• 23:01
  long time, figuring out how to pivot and then do the new thing.
• 23:07
  It definitely took a couple years for us to really nail that
• 23:09
  and get it down. We thankfully, I think we've
• 23:11
  been doing a really good job in recent years and I think we did
• 23:14
  a solid job before. But we do traditional styles for
• 23:18
  so long and you know, we, all of our beer is packaged in bottles
• 23:23
  until 2020 for all intensive purposes, because that's what
• 23:27
  you did in the 80s and the 90s. But all of a sudden in 2015, oh,
• 23:31
  everyone wants cans now. It's like what, yeah, where do,
• 23:35
  where do we put a canning line and all that stuff?
• 23:37
  So it took a little bit of time, but there's some leadership
• 23:42
  stuff. Basically, you know, the Conways
• 23:44
  are the the owners, but they've hired in, in, in executives to
• 23:48
  like help steer the ship and all that.
• 23:50
  And basically, you know, there's a certain point where it's like,
• 23:54
  OK, we got to try some of this new stuff and we went in with a
• 23:58
  hazy IPAA couple years ago, Haze Craft.
• 24:01
  And I mean, that was big for us. I know hazy Ipas are like, of
• 24:05
  course, but it's like when you kind of cut your teeth on
• 24:08
  loggers and malt for beers and stuff like that, pivoting to
• 24:13
  something like a hazy IPA was a little bit of a switch.
• 24:15
  So and then we tried some stuff and some stuff worked and some
• 24:19
  stuff didn't, but we kind of were able to get to the point
• 24:23
  where OK, sebaceous Midwest. We've kind of refined process.
• 24:30
  We did bring on a fellow named Steven Powells, who he was the
• 24:34
  brewmaster at Blvd. You guys know Blvd. from Kansas
• 24:38
  City. So he was brewmaster there for
• 24:40
  20 years. He he Hank 7, they're famous
• 24:46
  Saison. That's him.
• 24:48
  He's done so many other things. I believe he also.
• 24:51
  So I actually I was talking about this in the training I did
• 24:53
  earlier. He invented their Cezanne.
• 24:56
  He also invented their Salter. So he was able to, which is
• 25:00
  quirk. It's it's I think one of the
• 25:02
  bigger craft salters. So we brought him on and he was
• 25:05
  able to we already had a really great brewing team.
• 25:08
  He was kind of able to elevate the team even further to like
• 25:12
  really nail these contemporary styles like like IPA has been
• 25:16
  around for a while, but like the way that these Ipas drink is
• 25:19
  different from how Ipas drank 20 years ago.
• 25:23
  And then it's, it's, it's a lot of data-driven stuff these days.
• 25:29
  So on the the sales and marketing side, you know, in the
• 25:33
  past, and this is everybody in 20 in the twenty 10s, early 20
• 25:37
  tens, it was like, oh, well, this did well in the pub.
• 25:40
  Let's try it. You know, let's, let's send it
• 25:42
  out to market. Cool.
• 25:43
  And like, unfortunately people don't care about Doppelbach that
• 25:48
  much. You know what I mean?
• 25:49
  Like they, they do in the pub, they'll have a Doppelbach in the
• 25:52
  pub, but like they didn't buy the four pack of the Doppelbock
• 25:56
  all that much. So we, you know, I mean, it's,
• 26:00
  it's, it can kind of sound a little lame or whatever, but
• 26:03
  it's just, we started looking at actual trends, data-driven
• 26:07
  stuff. And what's nice is that these
• 26:11
  beers that we've come out with in recent years have the same
• 26:16
  kind of hallmark Great Lakes balance and drinkability.
• 26:20
  They still feel like Great Lakes.
• 26:23
  They kind of look like Great Lakes, like the the Midwest IPA.
• 26:27
  You know, it's there's no story behind this, there's no
• 26:30
  character on there, but it's still kind of has the general
• 26:32
  feel of a Great Lakes beer and all that.
• 26:37
  So again, that's part of what I really love about what we're
• 26:39
  doing is like, yeah, we're like for new, these new products that
• 26:41
  we've come out with, it's data-driven stuff using new
• 26:44
  techniques and all that. But it's still has that same
• 26:47
  through line for us as a brewery.
• 26:49
  I just, and I just wonder it there is as much pressure on you
• 26:53
  guys because you've been around say a lot longer than the guy
• 26:56
  down the street that maybe he's only been around for five years
• 26:59
  to really evolve and change because people are used to what
• 27:03
  they want to get. Oh yeah, at Great Lakes.
• 27:06
  So how do you, how do you balance that?
• 27:08
  Or do you do you feel like you have to balance?
• 27:10
  That yeah, it's tough because we have, we're, we are very lucky
• 27:14
  that we have those day one fans that are still with us, you
• 27:17
  know, and that's 36 years. It's a long time of, of
• 27:23
  following. And you know, I would say the
• 27:25
  biggest, it's OK, not no problem bringing this up.
• 27:28
  One of our long time brands, Burning River Pale Ale, we did
• 27:32
  actually discontinue that beer a couple years ago because it's a
• 27:37
  lovely beer. It's a good old classic American
• 27:39
  pale ale, Cascade hops, some crystal ball in there and all
• 27:43
  that. But and people in the pub who
• 27:46
  have been coming to us for over 3 decades drink that beer all
• 27:49
  the time. But it just wasn't, it didn't
• 27:52
  have the I in front of it. It was just AP.
• 27:55
  It's just a pale ale. It wasn't an IPA, right?
• 27:59
  So no, but it's in series. It's a different flavor profile
• 28:03
  and all that too. So we, we do have to make some
• 28:06
  tough choices every once in a while.
• 28:08
  That was probably the toughest one we've had to make in recent
• 28:11
  memory. One of your kids.
• 28:12
  But if it's something you, you, you had for a long time, you're
• 28:14
  really partial to it and you didn't, you don't want to let it
• 28:16
  go. 100%, yeah. Yeah.
• 28:19
  But then it's like, well, we got to, you know, start trying to
• 28:21
  stay in business here, too at the same time.
• 28:23
  Exactly, Yeah. And Burning River was was was
• 28:25
  suffering for a while. So we really don't want to let
• 28:28
  it go. But it's one of those things you
• 28:30
  just got to do, but then you got to do.
• 28:32
  And I think this is where, OK, so because we have that long
• 28:36
  track record and the brand loyalty and all that stuff, this
• 28:41
  is where kind of the education and communication piece comes in
• 28:44
  big time. You know, So when we have to do
• 28:47
  stuff like that, balancing tradition while remaining
• 28:51
  relevant, that's where, you know, explain to people why we
• 28:55
  have to make certain decisions is so important.
• 28:57
  And, you know, having people like me going out and talking
• 29:00
  and our sales guys. And it even goes to stuff in
• 29:04
  like social media, the newsletter and all that stuff,
• 29:09
  all the and of course in our pub, you know, when people come
• 29:13
  to us and interact with us, it's and I'm.
• 29:17
  Sure. You got people that say, what do
• 29:18
  you mean you're discontinuing that one?
• 29:19
  We love that one. I go.
• 29:20
  It would be probably, yeah, I know you do, but not enough
• 29:24
  people do. Exactly.
• 29:25
  Yeah. And how do you say that?
• 29:27
  Right. How do you say that to people?
• 29:28
  You just, you can't, it's you can't really do it.
• 29:31
  But that is the reality, right? That's the reality.
• 29:34
  So yeah. And it would be nice.
• 29:36
  The biggest, like one of the biggest things is you mentioned
• 29:38
  like the new guys who are around, like there's a lot of
• 29:43
  beer out there and we would love to have 25 beers out there in
• 29:47
  the marketplace. But it's just it's not possible
• 29:50
  to maintain that and especially to maintain quality.
• 29:53
  So like, you know, you think about a beer that can we do a
• 29:57
  small batch or whatever, and then you have a six pack that
• 30:00
  sits on the shelf for far too long because there's just too
• 30:04
  much to manage, you know what I mean?
• 30:06
  So yeah. I have a question.
• 30:09
  Good question. Sorry, I was, I was talking, I
• 30:12
  was talking with the guys before this.
• 30:14
  This is the for the listeners, this is the end of a, a three
• 30:17
  day, a three day, a three day marathon for me right here.
• 30:22
  But we're doing it. We're doing it.
• 30:23
  Yeah, you're good, You're good. They're.
• 30:25
  Probably starting running together for.
• 30:26
  You and my 5 month old baby is right on the other side of the
• 30:29
  door, so yeah. I got a question cuz the West
• 30:33
  Coast IPA, Yeah, actually it's the Midwest IPA, right?
• 30:38
  It's not West Coast, it's the Midwest IPA.
• 30:40
  But that's a good lead in right there.
• 30:42
  Yeah, yeah. So my question is kind of is,
• 30:47
  that's, is that you feel like that's more than just a name.
• 30:50
  You know, you've got and I and I just said like a West Coast IPA
• 30:53
  and you've got East Coast IPA and people kind of know what
• 30:55
  those are, right? Is there a true Midwest IPA?
• 30:58
  Are you guys kind of like this is what the theme should be or
• 31:01
  we're kind of creating one or was there one that you're just
• 31:03
  you're staying true to? A little bit of both.
• 31:06
  So we would argue that this is like the contemporary expression
• 31:11
  of it. I would absolutely tip our caps
• 31:16
  to like A2 hearted, you know, Bells 2 hearted.
• 31:19
  Yeah, that's that beer has been around since I think since the
• 31:22
  80s, maybe the early 90s. And it's, you know, kind of
• 31:27
  similar construction, not really a a ton of malt, but there's a
• 31:32
  malt backbone there. Not super bitter like the West
• 31:36
  Coast hop expression. So is there's inspiration from
• 31:40
  that approach. But this is kind of a fresh take
• 31:44
  on the whole thing for from us. So then of course, 2 Hard's a
• 31:48
  classic and it's a Cicero and I tip my cap to it.
• 31:50
  It's it's a classic, but so I'm honestly surprised from from the
• 31:58
  more marketing side. I was like, oh man, no one's
• 32:00
  really like owned the name Midwest IPA and we can't own you
• 32:03
  can't trade market, you know what I mean?
• 32:05
  But it's like, no one's doing this already like, so we can
• 32:08
  just do it. OK, that's great.
• 32:10
  Cool, you know. It's almost his own brand,
• 32:12
  right? I mean.
• 32:13
  It's like a windows. It's almost.
• 32:14
  His own brand it. Was like a salivatory Day 1
• 32:16
  then. Yeah, like why do we just call
• 32:18
  it Midwest? Oh, wow.
• 32:20
  Yeah. But you know, for us, so the
• 32:23
  West Coast thing is salient because West Coast IPA is of
• 32:27
  course, that's the predecessor to what just General American
• 32:32
  IPA becomes, right. So like your Two Hearts and
• 32:35
  other brands like that are basically just, we call them
• 32:39
  American IPA today, but a lot of them have roots going back to
• 32:43
  the West Coast style. And then you got the Hazies,
• 32:46
  which are originally New England IPA, which that's obviously a
• 32:50
  big break from the IPA brewing tradition because it's totally
• 32:53
  different in appearance and mouthfeel.
• 32:55
  It's a hot profile that's going on flavor wise.
• 32:58
  So what Midwest is, is you take the best of the West Coast and
• 33:04
  you take the best of the New England and you kind of, oh,
• 33:09
  where do you end up when you go from those two areas?
• 33:12
  Oh my goodness. Right there, right there in the
• 33:14
  middle in the Midwest. So So what Midwest IPA is all
• 33:18
  about is on the West Coast side. I can.
• 33:25
  Is there a video for this? By the way, do you guys post a
• 33:27
  video or is this just the audio? We have a video that we're
• 33:30
  trying to do some more video within the course of what we do.
• 33:33
  So yes. So if the viewers can end up
• 33:37
  seeing this Midwest IPA is appearance wise, let me top that
• 33:44
  off. There we go. 2 fingers, right?
• 33:46
  One or two fingers clarity wise, it's got it.
• 33:49
  So this is not a New New England style turbid, you know, juice
• 33:54
  bombing or anything like that. It's got the clarity of a West
• 33:56
  Coast and then it's kind of got the snappy body of a West Coast
• 34:01
  a little bit leaner. You know, if you're thinking in
• 34:04
  terms of like finishing gravity for the homebrewers out there,
• 34:08
  probably would be a little bit on the lower end, so not as much
• 34:10
  residual sugar leftover and all that.
• 34:13
  But what it doesn't have, like a lot of traditional West Coast
• 34:16
  have is that big bite of bitterness.
• 34:18
  So think of your palette wreckers and ruinations of your
• 34:23
  100 plus IB us, that whole phase that we went through in craft
• 34:26
  beer. This is not that.
• 34:29
  So 45 IB us is what we list. So testing right around there in
• 34:33
  the lab. So what that does it's it's just
• 34:37
  enough bitterness where it makes this beer.
• 34:41
  You kind of want to come back for that second or third and 4th
• 34:44
  sip of it enhances the drinkability, but it's a low
• 34:49
  enough level of bitterness that it's not going to off put
• 34:52
  someone who typically doesn't enjoy IPA.
• 34:55
  So that's the West Coast side. And then when it comes to the
• 34:58
  New England side, it's got it does again, it doesn't have that
• 35:02
  hazy appearance that in New England does.
• 35:06
  It doesn't have that fuller body that the New Englands can have
• 35:09
  sometimes, but it does have the low again, the low bitterness.
• 35:12
  So you again, two sides of the same coin going on right now.
• 35:15
  And it's got a lot more of the, when it comes to the hop, the
• 35:19
  actual hop flavor profile, it's got a little bit of both.
• 35:23
  So it's got there's Cascade in here.
• 35:25
  So that's your classic kind of like Sierra Nevada pale whale
• 35:28
  hop. And then I, I joke about this
• 35:31
  and it's just kind of funny, vivacious and Midwest.
• 35:34
  I think they've been our most successful Ipas and they both
• 35:37
  have Citra hops in them. So and like beautiful, but Citra
• 35:41
  in there. Good to go.
• 35:44
  Absolutely, yeah. We got a winner, we got a couple
• 35:47
  of winners. Yeah, there we go.
• 35:49
  So yeah. When I, and I said this earlier,
• 35:51
  I mean when I had the vivacious, it was probably about a month or
• 35:55
  two ago. And I've tried some other Ipas
• 35:59
  this year and I feel like I'm graduating a little bit.
• 36:01
  Michael. I'm like, yay, beautiful.
• 36:03
  Cuz if you had asked me like 2 years ago what I think about
• 36:06
  Ipas, I'm like, yeah, I'm more going to loggers and yeah, some
• 36:11
  other things. So I'm really glad that I've
• 36:14
  been able to graduate a little bit to the.
• 36:16
  IPA Steve, was it the What aspect of Ipas did you not enjoy
• 36:21
  in the past? You know, I'm gonna say a lot of
• 36:24
  them were the West Coast Ipas. OK, It's you think it's the you
• 36:28
  think it's the bitterness factor.
• 36:30
  Yeah, probably that, Yeah, I think so.
• 36:31
  And that makes sense, you know, from the if you just think about
• 36:35
  how we're wired, like bitterness is something that kind of
• 36:37
  signals that something could be harmful to us.
• 36:39
  So like, it should be no surprise that a lot of people
• 36:43
  didn't enjoy IPA that much until recent years.
• 36:46
  And the hazies kind of like the hazies ended up being a signal
• 36:51
  to like the rest of us, Like, oh, if, if we just not make them
• 36:56
  bitter, then people will like them more.
• 36:58
  So And then we did that and surprise, surprise, there was a
• 37:02
  little bit more of a mass appeal for stuff so.
• 37:04
  And, and the fun thing is we sometimes Scott and I will talk
• 37:07
  about this on the podcast and then when we're out with
• 37:09
  friends, we talk about this as well.
• 37:11
  It's like as you, if you drink more different craft beer over
• 37:15
  the years, if you, if you go back and you look at, you know,
• 37:18
  your ratings may maybe on, on Taft or something.
• 37:22
  I'm always pleased when I go OK, compared to what?
• 37:25
  I like this three years ago. I like this a heck of a lot
• 37:28
  more. It's very rare that I go in and
• 37:30
  go man, I don't like this at all now compared to this.
• 37:34
  Yeah, yeah. And that's the beauty of
• 37:36
  Untapped. I know, I know there in the
• 37:38
  industry, there's some haters out there on Untapped and all
• 37:40
  that stuff. But yeah, and there are, there
• 37:42
  are the, there are the problems of, you know, great Pilsner 2.5
• 37:46
  caps. Or whatever.
• 37:47
  But you know, it's, it's the ignorance of the people checking
• 37:50
  them in, yes. But I love the.
• 37:53
  Scott, talk to the man about on tap because you you, you have
• 37:56
  you're very. Oh my God, I do a lot on tap.
• 38:00
  Yeah, but we've we've learned a lot by talking to Brewers that
• 38:03
  we didn't know going into it that Brewers for the most part.
• 38:06
  How you doing tap and for the very reason you just said yeah,
• 38:09
  or was like, yeah, two point O on this this IPA that you know,
• 38:13
  averages 4 1/2 because they don't like Ipas.
• 38:16
  OK, it's not for you, man. So right for you guys, there
• 38:20
  should be a way you could like, I don't know, take those out
• 38:24
  somehow or not let them. That's why I just rate all my
• 38:26
  beers of five, so to see if it's out, yeah.
• 38:29
  You're bringing up the other ones.
• 38:33
  Yeah, I know. It's, it's, it's, you know, it's
• 38:35
  all, it's all in good fun. And, and in the end, the beauty
• 38:38
  of, of that is that there are thousands of ratings.
• 38:40
  It's, it's going to average out, you know what I mean?
• 38:43
  So. It is.
• 38:44
  We love it. We as as we've talked to more
• 38:47
  Brewers and we realize that aspect.
• 38:50
  I would never give anything anyway a bad rating because I
• 38:52
  didn't like the style, but I'm certainly a lot more conscious
• 38:55
  of it. Even going into it be OK,
• 38:58
  somebody made and I will look at the overall average.
• 39:00
  It doesn't necessarily say that's what I'm going to give
• 39:02
  it, but take that with a grain of salt, right.
• 39:05
  If I'm giving something A2 and it's a 4 1/2 again, I'm wrong
• 39:09
  because there's something wrong. I might not like it.
• 39:12
  That's OK, But it's not a it's not a two at the same time.
• 39:16
  So it's kind of understanding wouldn't have this supposed to
• 39:19
  be for and what it? Is exactly and you know it for
• 39:23
  us who are passionate about beer work in the industry and stuff,
• 39:25
  and we're like, how come people don't get it?
• 39:27
  And it's like they're just drinking beer, you know what I
• 39:30
  mean? Like, yeah, most people, most
• 39:33
  people like have this much capacity in.
• 39:37
  Their brains. For that.
• 39:39
  And that's OK, that's perfectly fine.
• 39:41
  So yeah. It's like social media, like
• 39:42
  it's like any other social media for people.
• 39:43
  They just, they just get on there to do where they want to
• 39:45
  say where they want to and you know, no repercussions or
• 39:48
  whatever, just move on to something else.
• 39:50
  It's they don't put a lot of importance into it.
• 39:52
  And I, I want to know, I want to know, Michael, what your rating
• 39:55
  system is like. What do you consider if you see,
• 39:58
  if you see and, and there's no, there's no bad answer here.
• 40:02
  What do you what do you look at? If you're saying on tapped and
• 40:05
  let's say somebody raiding a Great Lakes beer and they're
• 40:08
  rating it, I don't know, what do you what do you go, Oh my gosh,
• 40:12
  is it that you know, what's what's your criteria?
• 40:15
  So, you know, there are a couple of different, a couple of
• 40:21
  different scales here. First of all, for me personally,
• 40:23
  I still use it all the time. I love having the history and
• 40:26
  the log of stuff I've had. And I'm just a nerd.
• 40:29
  I just like using it and you know, toasting my friends and
• 40:33
  all that stuff. When it comes to what we see,
• 40:35
  I'll hop on there every once in a while and just see.
• 40:37
  Especially when a new beer comes out.
• 40:39
  So vibacious Midwest, any of the new others when Christmas sale
• 40:43
  comes out, see what the comments are.
• 40:45
  All that stuff, especially in the early comments.
• 40:49
  I honestly, I don't like, I don't pay attention to the
• 40:52
  ratings that much because they pretty much are going to be what
• 40:55
  they are. Like if it's a double IPA, it's
• 40:58
  going to be about a four for us. If it's a regular IPA, it's
• 41:01
  going to end up being a 3.7. Like it just it just ends up
• 41:04
  being roughly that, you know what I mean?
• 41:07
  But the comments are what is that's what I'm looking for.
• 41:11
  And I know as I say that it's a charge thing because there's
• 41:15
  obviously the, the wild comments, but you see certain
• 41:19
  feedback of like, say for Midwest, like, oh, super, it's
• 41:25
  got good hop character, but super approachable, super
• 41:28
  drinkable. You know, it's like, yes, that's
• 41:29
  what we were going for, you know, So when you see enough
• 41:32
  people say that it's like, OK, we got it, you know, and it, it
• 41:35
  really can be a good tool. It's again, it's easy for
• 41:38
  crotchety Brewers to be like untapped and all that.
• 41:40
  But you can see out there, especially for us when we are a
• 41:45
  regional Brewer and a lot of our business is driven by 6 pack
• 41:51
  sales in grocery stores in states that are two borders away
• 41:55
  from us. You know, it's a great way to
• 41:58
  get some data to be like, OK, we what we and obviously we've got
• 42:02
  the sales metrics and all that stuff too.
• 42:04
  But then on the marketing side, we can get that verification of
• 42:06
  like people are enjoying this, it's doing what we want it to
• 42:10
  do. So does that kind of make sense
• 42:12
  to you guys? Yeah, for sure.
• 42:15
  Just don't look at it too much, yeah?
• 42:17
  And I like this, I like you that you said you like the comments
• 42:20
  kind of more than the than the, the rating.
• 42:23
  But when you look at a rating, what do you think if someone
• 42:25
  gives you a A35 or A375, what do you guys consider you would
• 42:30
  consider a good rating for your beer?
• 42:32
  You see somebody check something out, anything over a certain
• 42:35
  amount. Yeah.
• 42:36
  I mean, I think yeah, the 3.5 is a standard once, yeah, 3.5 is
• 42:42
  the 2.5, right? Like 3.5 is average.
• 42:47
  Yeah, you're with the 80% like 80 or something.
• 42:50
  Average good, right? So it's not not average in the
• 42:53
  sense of it's it's just like this is a good solid craft beer.
• 42:55
  That's what I would look for. 3.7 is like, OK, we're like
• 42:59
  we're getting there 4% four. This is like, but then it's
• 43:04
  tough too because it depends on the style, right?
• 43:06
  So like again, like I kind of mentioned before, if it's a
• 43:08
  double IPAI need a 4/2, yes, yeah, if it's a standard IPA,
• 43:17
  that would be good, like 3.9, you know what I mean?
• 43:20
  Yeah. Yeah, like my go to now is used
• 43:22
  to be and I'm I'm a subscriber now or insider, whatever they
• 43:26
  call it, so I can read it in intense and for a long time I
• 43:29
  didn't do it. I didn't think it made any
• 43:31
  sense. But but to me now it does.
• 43:33
  I'll start if if a good if a beer is just really good, above
• 43:36
  average solid, just sit down and drink it.
• 43:39
  I'm starting at a 3/8. Yeah, it used to be a 3/5 for
• 43:42
  me. I have a three eight like that's
• 43:43
  OK, that's on the higher. Three, that's a good, that's a,
• 43:46
  that's a good, like baseline right there.
• 43:47
  Yeah, yeah. Relative to what people
• 43:49
  realistically do, yeah. Yeah, I'm going 3-8 and then I
• 43:52
  got it. It's almost like 3-8 and I'm
• 43:55
  adding points for this or I'm taking away points for that, you
• 43:57
  know, kind of thing. If you're just something off
• 43:59
  about it or something that's exceptional.
• 44:01
  You know, I'm like, if I get to a four and above, man, we're in
• 44:04
  another category. I love it and we're going how
• 44:06
  far can we take this thing? Yep.
• 44:09
  And I appreciate you guys put the thought into it.
• 44:11
  That's good. Yeah.
• 44:12
  Yeah, cuz it's really easy to just throw something up there
• 44:14
  and then move on. But we need reviewers like you
• 44:19
  guys out there to balance everything.
• 44:22
  That's the name. I do have a couple of, I do have
• 44:24
  a couple of like point twos and two fights, but that's like
• 44:27
  Schlitz malt liquor and. Yeah.
• 44:29
  Yeah, 8 ball and old. English and fun, Yeah.
• 44:33
  Hey, dude, for their style, they're pretty good.
• 44:35
  OK, Yeah. But they don't care about that.
• 44:38
  I'm sure they don't care about the tattoo.
• 44:39
  They. Don't care, they probably want a
• 44:41
  low rating, yeah. Let's buy the stuff from the low
• 44:45
  end of the scale, yeah? And so leading up, leading up to
• 44:48
  this conversation real quick, Scott.
• 44:51
  And so when I went on my untapped app about a day ago or
• 44:58
  so, when I was looking at what I had and this Dortmund no longer,
• 45:03
  I had rated the 3.75 back in 2020.
• 45:07
  I believe I have evolved because I would probably rate this
• 45:10
  between a four and a 4.25. Nice.
• 45:13
  Yeah. So I'm glad I've graduated a
• 45:15
  little bit more. We're gonna need to see the
• 45:17
  proof on your untapped. I will.
• 45:19
  I will be rating it after this episode, yeah.
• 45:22
  I like it. You can check it.
• 45:23
  Screenshot that. Let's go.
• 45:25
  Yeah. Screenshot.
• 45:25
  I will do it. Dude.
• 45:26
  I'll go back. I'll look at the check
• 45:28
  insurance. I'll look at all.
• 45:29
  I'll find you. Yeah.
• 45:31
  National Leon there so. Yeah, I know my.
• 45:33
  I know my untapped. There we go hey you guys, we did
• 45:37
  like, I don't know, it could be you and Elsa, it could be I know
• 45:41
  on the production side, like they've been doing some
• 45:45
  adjustments to make the beer even better, like continuous
• 45:48
  improvement mentality and all that.
• 45:49
  So Dorm Wonder is potentially the beer I've noticed at the
• 45:54
  most on it, just like we adjusted the pH in the sparge
• 46:01
  basically for, you know, the brewing stuff.
• 46:04
  So it lowered the pH just a little bit, which gave a little
• 46:08
  bit more of a snappy. I'm using Snappy a lot today.
• 46:11
  Yeah, I liked it, but a crisper or you could say crisper Dorm
• 46:16
  under is a fuller logger, you know, compared to most of the
• 46:19
  other loggers out there. It's still of course a logger.
• 46:21
  So it's relatively drinkable. But for a long time, that beer
• 46:27
  for me, and I guess it could be partially me too, they had like
• 46:31
  this more roundness to it and everything like this is good.
• 46:34
  Like, and then the past probably year or so I've been drinking,
• 46:38
  it's like, yeah, it's just like that much crisper.
• 46:43
  Like the malt is there, but it's not heavy.
• 46:46
  The flavors there, but the heft isn't there.
• 46:48
  And like I'm getting a little bit more of the hot presents.
• 46:50
  So maybe it's a little brew process too.
• 46:53
  It's earning, is it? It's earning the 4.25.
• 46:55
  Yeah. Well.
• 46:56
  That's awesome that you say that because you're around it like
• 46:58
  you were literally around this beer all the time.
• 47:00
  And, you know, if I go like Stacy, you know, if you haven't
• 47:02
  had it in four years and you go back and maybe, you know, you
• 47:06
  might not know the beer got better.
• 47:07
  Maybe it's just I'd like loggers more than I did before my
• 47:10
  palate's changed or something. But just for you to hear you say
• 47:12
  that is maybe there's something to that as well, that hey, the
• 47:15
  beer actually did get better. And I will admit I don't, I
• 47:19
  don't typically go back to see and research have they changed
• 47:23
  the beer? But it is something that as you
• 47:25
  just brought up, I kind of wonder, you know, I mean, has it
• 47:28
  changed a little bit over in the last four years since I had it?
• 47:31
  So that's a really good point. It's mostly proud.
• 47:34
  We don't, and we don't do a ton of wholesale, you know, recipe
• 47:37
  change, recipe changes if you will, but how can we make the
• 47:41
  beer a little bit better? So just little tweaks, a little
• 47:43
  bit tweaks in the process. So it's the same beer.
• 47:46
  Yeah. It's just a better version of
• 47:48
  the same beer. Yeah, you just tweak just a
• 47:50
  thing here or there can make just, you know, a slight
• 47:53
  difference that you could tell the difference.
• 47:55
  Exactly. So we're we're proud of that.
• 47:58
  That concludes part one of our episode with Michael Williams,
• 48:01
  who is the historian, archivist and advanced Cicerone at Great
• 48:06
  Lake Brewing Company in Cleveland, OH.
• 48:09
  Part 2 will be up soon for Scott Turon.
• 48:12
  I'm Steve Sullivan, and this has been the Group Underground
• 48:16
  podcast.