Latest / The Bechdel Cast / The Chronicles of Narnia: The Lion, The Witch, and the Wardrobe (2005)

Transcript

The Chronicles of Narnia: The Lion, The Witch, and the Wardrobe (2005) · The Bechdel Cast

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: On the doecast.
• 0:02
  Speaker 2: The questions asked if movies have women and them, are
• 0:05
  Speaker 2: all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands or do they
• 0:08
  Speaker 2: have individualism? It's the patriarchy Zephy and Beast start changing
• 0:13
  Speaker 2: it with the Bechdel Cast.
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: Caitlyn, Yes, Asla, you got it. Uh, do not cite
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: the Deep podcast to me, which I was there when
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: it was recorded. Mm hmmm, I wrote that one down.
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: Thank you, thank you. Actually we should pause because I'm
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: assuming the listener is applauding.
• 0:35
  Speaker 3: Yeah, like uplorious laughter.
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: I'm like Cynthia Arrivo.
• 0:40
  Speaker 3: Glorious get it, it's a lion.
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: Yes'm I'm doing. I'm doing what Cynthia Arriva does at
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: the end of the Wizard and I it literally pause
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: for applause, assuming that everyone is cheering and she's right,
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: and so am I.
• 0:53
  Speaker 3: Yeah, thank you, applause, applause, clap, clap, clap, and now
• 0:58
  Speaker 3: calm down, everyone, settle down.
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: Easy, easy, plot incoming. Welcome to the Bechdel Cast.
• 1:05
  Speaker 3: My name is Jamie, my name is Caitlin, and this
• 1:09
  Speaker 3: is our the Chronicles of Narnia, The Lion, the Witch,
• 1:14
  Speaker 3: and the Wardrobe episode.
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: Get ready because we're all going to become Christians today,
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: We're going to become lion fearing whatever. So this is
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: our podcast where we take a look at your favorite
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: movies using an intersectional feminist lens and the Bechdel Test
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: as a jumping off point. But Kitlin, what the hell
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: is that? I'll tell you what. C. S. Lewis wouldn't
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: give a rats ass, But let's let the people know.
• 1:42
  Speaker 3: Sure, it is a media metric created by our best
• 1:46
  Speaker 3: friend in the whole wide world, Alison Bechdel. There are
• 1:49
  Speaker 3: many versions of the test. The one that we use
• 1:52
  Speaker 3: is do two characters of a marginalized gender have names?
• 1:57
  Speaker 3: Do they speak to each other? And is their conversation
• 2:00
  Speaker 3: about something other than a man or a male lion?
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: Exactly? Yes, Liam Neeson lion, and we'll talk about Lion Nissan,
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: we'll talk about Lion Nison. Is that anything was very
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: impactful to me. It's so funny when I was trying
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: to think of what is another I feel like we've
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: talked about it recently. A movie that's trying to make
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: you religious but then just ends up making you horny.
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: Because that is my experience of this movie. This movie
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: I did not successfully make me believe in like the Bible,
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: but it did successfully make me horny. I'm trying it'll
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: come to me. But there's another like important movie text
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: to me that is ultimately trying to be like Jesus
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: is real, right, and you're just sort of like, oh,
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: I was I mean, was it Jesus Christ Superstar? Oh? Yes, okay, Yeah,
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: it is like something that you're like, oh, I'm supposed
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: to be thinking about the Bible, but I'm actually just
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: thinking about having sex with Judas kind of the opposite
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: intent of the intended effect. Sure, sure, anyways, this is
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: our Chronicles of Narnia episode. If you are a member
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: of our Patreon aka Matreon, and you should be yes,
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: this is a This is a quick plug. Five dollars
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: a month gets you two bonus episodes at the Metical
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: Cast a month on a theme of yours or sometimes
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: are choosing depending on the month. There's over almost two
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: hundred episodes of backlog, so if you have if there's
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: a movie we haven't covered on the main feed, there
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: is a really good chance we have covered it over
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: on the matred And it's a very fun community. We've
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: been doing it forever and yeah, it's the holiday season,
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: give a gift to yourself, give a gift to someone else.
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: But so we this the genesis of this episode.
• 3:44
  Speaker 3: Hmm, yeah, exactly, that's that's a part of the Bible.
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, holding for applause once again.
• 3:50
  Speaker 3: Yeah again, Calm down, Calm down, everybody.
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: Okay, Okay, more revelations in coming, folks. Okay, I'm gonna
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: tap up pretty soon, because I really know.
• 4:03
  Speaker 3: I was like, can I name another book of the Bible? No?
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: I can't, Copeter, No.
• 4:10
  Speaker 3: John, John? Is there a John in there?
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: There is? There's definitely a John. Yeah. Name It's like whatever,
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: It's just like names of the Bible. It's like calling
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: role in a second grade classroom in like nineteen ninety five. Basically. Yeah, anyways,
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: what we're Oh, so this began over on the matread.
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: We were thinking of some wintery holiday coded movies that
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: we haven't covered over the years, and Narnia. There was
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: just such a ridiculous appetite for this movie that we
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: were like, we got to bring it to the people.
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: Much like the Word of Christ, we need to bring
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: it to the people.
• 4:42
  Speaker 3: Yeah, we're missionaries in that way. We are, we're podcast missionaries.
• 4:47
  Speaker 3: Oh god, you know what I bet that there are
• 4:49
  Speaker 3: people who say that with complete sincerity.
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well we'll get we'll get into it. I listened.
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: I had to listen to a lot of Christian podcasts
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: to prepare for this, oh my, and some were actually
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: very helpful in any case. So this started on the Matreon.
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: So we're we're covering this here, but we are just
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: to close the loop on the plug covering two other
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: holiday classics over on the Matreon that our community really
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: wanted to hear about. Those being The Family Stone Rip
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: Diane Keaton and Black Christmas Rip. I have to assume
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: a good chunk of that cast is a pretty old movie.
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: It was made in the seventies. So yeah, but two
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: movies that I don't know, Like, we've been talking about
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: this a lot as we approach our ten year anniversary.
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: There's a lot of movies that you would think we
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: would have covered by now, but but we haven't, and
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: we're having a great time. This movie included indeed, Caitlin,
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: what is your history with this movie? And also just
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: the Narnia Expanded Universe.
• 5:48
  Speaker 3: Sure. So at my house growing up, we had the
• 5:52
  Speaker 3: box set of all of the c s. Lewis Narnia books.
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: Same same is the one that you have at your apartment,
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: your childhood copy, because I think I had the same set.
• 6:04
  Speaker 3: It is not my childhood copy. I don't know where
• 6:07
  Speaker 3: or when I acquired this, but there is a little
• 6:10
  Speaker 3: price tag on it that says eighty cents damn. So
• 6:14
  Speaker 3: I think this must have been, like.
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: That's the going price for the word of Christ. Brutal, brutal.
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: This is the one with like the little like aerials
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: shot of like.
• 6:22
  Speaker 3: Mister Tumnus, right, yeah, and he's got his little umbrella
• 6:25
  Speaker 3: and his packages. Yeah. I think this was maybe purchased
• 6:30
  Speaker 3: at a yard sale or something for eighties. I don't
• 6:33
  Speaker 3: know why it.
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: Only cost eighty cents salesrep, but that, like whatever, that
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: was my childhood I had the box set. I don't
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: know I have that, but for some reason, I think
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: it was a street book. I have all seven in
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: a paperback with Tilda Swinton on the cover, and so
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: that was what I used for prep and it felt
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: good nice. Yeah.
• 6:53
  Speaker 3: So I did read the line The Witch and the
• 6:54
  Speaker 3: Wardrobe when I was a kid, I don't remember what age,
• 6:59
  Speaker 3: and then the the only other book in the series
• 7:03
  Speaker 3: that I read was Prince Caspian, and I remember liking
• 7:08
  Speaker 3: it more than I liked The Lion, The Witch and
• 7:10
  Speaker 3: the Wardrobe. Really yeah, but I couldn't tell you a
• 7:13
  Speaker 3: single thing about it. I have no idea what it
• 7:16
  Speaker 3: was about. I can tell you I was just like,
• 7:18
  Speaker 3: I think I like this more than the other one.
• 7:20
  Speaker 3: It is more like adventury, I feel like it is. Yeah,
• 7:24
  Speaker 3: Prince Caspian is good.
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: I don't know. I wanted to so for listeners, just
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: for context, like this whatever. I mean, like we're not apologizing.
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: This is people right there, like doctoral feces on C. S.
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: Lewis and these books. There are so many things we
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: could have done to prepare for this, and we just
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: you know, it's a weekly show. We weren't able to
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: do all of it. I wish I had had time
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: to rewatch because I'm honestly not sure if I've seen
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: Prince Caspian. I know I've seen Voyage of the Dawn
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: Treader because maybe Will Poulter is in that. Oh Andy, Yeah,
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: this was just a series that made me very as
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: a kid. So, okay, so you read you read two of.
• 8:03
  Speaker 3: The books, Yes, but I remembered The Lion, the Witch
• 8:06
  Speaker 3: and the Wardrobe and its whole narrative far better because
• 8:10
  Speaker 3: I think it just like the cultural osmosis of this
• 8:13
  Speaker 3: story is like just way more in the zeitgeist. Sure,
• 8:17
  Speaker 3: so I was pretty familiar with the story going into
• 8:23
  Speaker 3: watching this movie the two thousand and five adaptation. What
• 8:28
  Speaker 3: I had never seen, and I don't think had ever
• 8:31
  Speaker 3: even knew existed was the nineteen eighty eight BBC Mini series.
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: I am so curious why this was the route. This
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: was your this was your over the top prep route.
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: What drew you to this series?
• 8:44
  Speaker 3: I'll tell you why. Okay, the comments on the Matreon
• 8:48
  Speaker 3: poll when it was clear that this movie was like
• 8:52
  Speaker 3: winning by a large margin.
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, to the point where we were like, we can't
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: even pay all this. It feels wrong.
• 8:58
  Speaker 3: Right right a lot of people and the comments were like, well,
• 9:01
  Speaker 3: you also have to talk about the nineteen eighty eight
• 9:03
  Speaker 3: BBC mini series, And I was like, what, I had
• 9:06
  Speaker 3: no idea that was even a thing because I grew
• 9:09
  Speaker 3: up in America. God damn it, I'm not watching BBC.
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: None of my business.
• 9:16
  Speaker 3: And so I took it upon myself to watch this
• 9:20
  Speaker 3: BBC adaptation and I had the time of my life. Really,
• 9:25
  Speaker 3: this damn thing. The costumes. It I would say, it's
• 9:28
  Speaker 3: not like good, but it's so it's can'ty, it's ridiculous.
• 9:34
  Speaker 3: The effects are horrible, the costumes are horrible.
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: Every clip you sent me more baffling than the last.
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: I do want to watch this because it sounds like
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: it just it just is like, you know, we have
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: forty dollars, let's see what we can do.
• 9:48
  Speaker 3: It seems simultaneously very low budget and very high budget
• 9:51
  Speaker 3: because they're like the costumes and the sets seemed expensive.
• 9:56
  Speaker 3: But then also the camera does not move. They put
• 10:00
  Speaker 3: the camera in one place and then they never like
• 10:03
  Speaker 3: there are no dolly shots, there's no crane shots, there's
• 10:06
  Speaker 3: no like maybe a pan or a tilt here and there,
• 10:09
  Speaker 3: but it's just like this stationary camera and then stuff
• 10:13
  Speaker 3: happens in front of it.
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: Huh.
• 10:14
  Speaker 3: Anyway, So as I was watching that, I was simultaneously
• 10:19
  Speaker 3: rereading the book. Yeah, so I would like read a
• 10:23
  Speaker 3: few chapters of the book and then watch the like
• 10:26
  Speaker 3: corresponding episode of the mini series to prep for this,
• 10:29
  Speaker 3: And I did that about ten days ago and whatever.
• 10:33
  Speaker 3: I'll say a few more things maybe about the BBC adaptation,
• 10:37
  Speaker 3: but it's a very very loyal adaptation. It's basically identical
• 10:42
  Speaker 3: story beats. Most of the dialogue from the BBC version
• 10:46
  Speaker 3: is directly like word for word, lifted from the book.
• 10:49
  Speaker 3: So it's a very, very very faithful adaptation. But anyway,
• 10:53
  Speaker 3: so I'm jumping all over the place. I read the
• 10:56
  Speaker 3: book as a kid. I saw this movie, the two
• 11:00
  Speaker 3: thousand and five adaptation, around the time it came out,
• 11:03
  Speaker 3: I think, probably in theaters.
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: Okay. I was like, that's.
• 11:07
  Speaker 3: Fun, but it's no Lord of the Rings.
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: So well, which and these these two writers are very connected.
• 11:14
  Speaker 3: They're BFFs.
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: Yes, the boys they're and they're always bitching at each
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: other about something or other. Did you know that C. S.
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: Lewis is the basis for Oh my god, what is
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: the Lord of the Rings? Tree character tree tree Beard,
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: tree Beard? That's C. S.
• 11:29
  Speaker 3: Lewis. Oh fun, okay, yeah, And Gerard Telking's like, look,
• 11:34
  Speaker 3: I think you're annoying.
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: You're loud at annoying. This is you. You're a tree.
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: And he's like, oh, that's pretty awesome. King. Yeah.
• 11:40
  Speaker 3: Anyway, so the movie I thought was fine. The main
• 11:43
  Speaker 3: thing I remembered was Tilda Swinton.
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: Which oh so impactful.
• 11:48
  Speaker 3: Tell me about it. Yeah, so I saw the movie
• 11:51
  Speaker 3: once around the time it came out. I watched it
• 11:53
  Speaker 3: again with our friend Bryant last year around the holiday season,
• 11:58
  Speaker 3: and then I watched it again twice to prep for
• 12:01
  Speaker 3: this episode. So that is my CS Lewis Narnia experience.
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: Awesome. What about yours, Genie? So I believe I was Hmm,
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: I read all the books. I had the books as
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: a kid. I have like a very strong memory. I
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: think it would have been before the movie came out,
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: maybe even in anticipation of the movie, either right before
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: or right after. I'm pretty sure before though, we would
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: go up to Maine to see my grandma, and I
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: really felt the need to hide from my family as
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: much as possible. And this was a big deal for
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: me because when we went up to Maine to visit
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: my grandma, I could have my own room that had
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: a door, and at my house I had my own room,
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: but it didn't have a door, and so any level
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: of privacy, I would go into a room, bring a
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: bajillion books with me, close the door, lock it, and
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: really just come out for food. And it was my
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: My family really did not like this quality helped me,
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: but but I you know, I didn't. I didn't want
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: to hang. I wanted to read. I remember there was
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: just like a trip where I locked myself in that
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: room and I read. Also had Narnia books.
• 13:14
  Speaker 3: Wow.
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I had the time of my life doing it.
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: I'm sure I missed out on some really beautiful family memories.
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: We'll never know, but I remember reading all of them.
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: I definitely like language and the wardrobe the best. I
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: don't have a really like descent, and and they're a
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: couple that I'm like, this one is boring. I read
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: through some of the synopsis just like jogged my memory.
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: I like, you know, I'm I'm kind of like I
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: like the ones with the Pevinc's in it and the
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: ones without. When it when we start to stray away
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: from the Pevinc's, I'm maybe not as interested.
• 13:47
  Speaker 3: But it took me forever to realize that that's their
• 13:49
  Speaker 3: last name. I was like what, and then it yeah,
• 13:52
  Speaker 3: it's the four kids, right.
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, when it's not the four kids, And like
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: you get into there's like a character named Jill Pole
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: who comes in at some point. There's a character named
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: Polly there's used to scrub that's a little bl polter
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: character that's their cousin. Okay, so there's like this whole
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: expanded universe of kids because there are like Narnia, I
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: don't know whatever, we'll talk about it. Because Narnia has
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: deep ties into like Christian storytelling and biblical storytelling, which
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: I don't think I was really aware of when I
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: was reading them.
• 14:25
  Speaker 3: I definitely was not.
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: I think maybe after the movie came out. So when
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: the movie came out, I was twelve and anything would
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: make me horny, and so I I think I never
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: I'm so surprised I haven't brought it up before. Maybe
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: I did years ago or something. But my two like
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: important horny posters I had as a kid were the
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: Alfred Molina Spiderman two poster duh, easy of course. But
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: I also had the Chronicles of Narnia poster with the
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: big as land on top. And I would kiss Asa
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: before I would go to bed. But it wasn't it
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: wasn't a sexual thing. It was like I just respec
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: to him so much. I don't know what it was.
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: I would kiss the poster before mead. That's all I
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: can say.
• 15:05
  Speaker 3: Incredible.
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: Uh, Yeah, I had a crush on basically everyone in
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: this movie. Even though it's kind of boring, it is
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: like a very viby, like you're asleep kind of but
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: you're also awake. I would kiss Aslan. I kind of
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: had a crush on Edmund, even though he's a menace
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: to society.
• 15:21
  Speaker 3: Oh this little shit.
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: Definitely had a crush on Telda Swinton and definitely had
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: a crush on James McAvoy, mister Tumnus. I was like,
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: I was all in on James McAvoy, mister Tumnus. I
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: was like, what if I was the little angenue that
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: met mister Tumnus And then he was like, you want
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: to be my best friend? Like it was, I know
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: I'm not alone there. I know I'm not alone there.
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: Do not contact me if you feel similarly, but you
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: know you were seen.
• 15:50
  Speaker 3: Sure.
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: So yeah, I had a crush on everyone in the movie.
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: Really liked it. But then I guess it's like I
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: think of this movie series as like the first movie
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: was really big, and then the second ones I like,
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: I don't even think I saw the second ones in theaters.
• 16:03
  Speaker 3: Yeah, they like diminishing returns on the sequels, and.
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: Then they didn't finish. I mean, and now I'm very
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: curious because Greta Gerwig is making a huge Narnia movie
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: that's gonna come out next year. Yeah, and you know
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: I'll be there. I'll be there. I'm curious what she
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: does with it. I don't think you can really top
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: James McAvoy, mister Tumnus, but I invited her to try.
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: I invited her to try, and so for for my
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: prep for this, I revisited the movie. I had reread
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: the book last year, but I went more in on
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: the UH symbolism side and the C. S Lewis lore side,
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: so we can sort of talk through it a little bit.
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: I feel there's again C. S Lewis, there's just like
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: so much stuff written about him, and with a short
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: amount of time. It's actually weirdly hard to research because
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: a lot of the sources you find are very Christian
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: and so they're is like an extreme tilt to the
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: way his work is presented. So it's hard to find
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: what I would consider to be like slightly more objective sources.
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: But I did my best.
• 17:10
  Speaker 3: Sure. C.
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: S Lewis, I'll tell you what a weird man. A
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: weird weird man. It's hard for And also, like listeners,
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: if you have. You know, there's been many biographies written
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: of him, so these are just broad strokes. My takeaway
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: was that he is prejudiced in many of the ways
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: you would expect for someone born in eighteen ninety nine,
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: but not in all of the ways you would expect.
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: I think that the main things are and they're also
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: you know, prejudices that bear out in Christianity where there's
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: like something called like the C. S. Lewis Foundation or whatever,
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: like it's a Christian organization where they're still trying to
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: figure out whether they're accepting gay people or not, like
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: that kind of like religious homophobia. Like, yeah, that does
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: feel present. And as we'll talk about, his views on
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: women fluctuate throughout his life in a way that is
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: kind of interesting, okay. And then there's just some fun
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: facts that I was like, hmm, can I tell you
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: by CS Lewis fact that really I was like, what's
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: going on there?
• 18:17
  Speaker 3: Please? Okay.
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: So his mother passed away when he was quite young.
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: I think he was like ten eleven something like that.
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: Then he because he was born in eighteen ninety nine,
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: he of course is drafted into World War One, makes
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: friends with this guy named Patty and Patty and him
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: make a pact, and Patty is like, if I die
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: in World War One, will you make sure that my
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: mother is taken care of? And C. S Lewis is like, ah, yeah,
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: I don't have a mom. Like that's really nice. Then unfortunately,
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: rip Patty, Patty dies at war, and then C. S
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: Lewis enters a three decade long romantic relationship with Patty's mom.
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: Patty's mom. It's it's a it's a lot going on.
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: It's like yeah, and and kind of what I was
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: enjoying as I because I watched a like whatever, like
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: any biography on C. S Lewis, I read a lot
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: about his life, and really, no one knows the right
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: way to frame this because it's so weird where it's
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: like they're two consentic adults, but it feels pretty fucking weird.
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: But anyways, he he was twenty one, she was forty six,
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: and they were together until her death. Wow, so he
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: just was hooking up with his friend. But I'm just like,
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: certainly that was not what Patty had in mind.
• 19:45
  Speaker 3: But he's not what he meant when he said, take
• 19:47
  Speaker 3: care of my mom?
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: Are we? Yeah? Take care of her?
• 19:51
  Speaker 3: Come on, wink.
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: I just don't you know, I is it? You know,
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: I guess he's not around to complain, but I it
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: was like kind of disrespectful to Patty to be like,
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: I'll take care of your mom already. Whatever. You know.
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: It seems like they were happy. And then later in
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: his life C. S. Lewis he got married again. Oh yeah.
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: The other work of C. S. Lewis that I've read
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: that I actually really liked was he wrote this very
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: short book after his his wife. But he was never
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: married to Patty's mom. They just had a thing for
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: thirty years. And then he did get married not too long,
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: like when he was older, to this woman that a
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: lot of people were like, is that That's why? I
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: was like, he kind of got cooler as he got older.
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: He married divorced Jewish American woman, which basically everyone in
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: his life was like, you can't do that, and he's like,
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: watch me, but you're so Christian, right right? And then
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: like he was like a hardcore Christian and yet I mean,
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: like many Christians, was very lucy goosey of like what
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: applied to him and what didn't sure, But in ways
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: that seemed mainly I mean, whatever we'll get into He
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: is certainly guilty of a fair amount of misogyny, but
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: in this marriage, it seemed like it was very happy
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: and that she was I don't know, like it seemed
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: really lovely. And he wrote a book when she died
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: pretty suddenly and is called a Grief Observed, and it's
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: very similar to like Joan Didion's like The Year of
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: Magical Thinking, like very written like in real time after
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: losing his spouse. And I just think it's really beautiful.
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: So if you're in grief mode, I would recommend it.
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: But yeah, weird guy, we'll talk more about him. That
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: was so I kind of went into the Lewis zone.
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: I mean it sounds like you had more fun.
• 21:35
  Speaker 3: Honestly, yeah, I did none of that, So thank you
• 21:38
  Speaker 3: for doing that research. I really just watched that BBC
• 21:41
  Speaker 3: mini series and laughed my ass off anytime mister Beaver.
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: Was on screen.
• 21:47
  Speaker 3: He's still big, he's human size, souse, it's a human
• 21:52
  Speaker 3: in a beaver costume, just waddling around being like I
• 21:56
  Speaker 3: found them.
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: I've found the Sons Adam and the daughters of Eve.
• 22:01
  Speaker 3: And you're just like, what is going on?
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: God? What a gift? But a gift. Well, let's take
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: a quick break and we'll come back with the recap.
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: And we're back, okay.
• 22:22
  Speaker 3: Here is the recap of the line, The Witch and
• 22:26
  Speaker 3: the Wardrobe two thousand and five. It is World War two.
• 22:32
  Speaker 3: So four children, Peter, Susan, Edmund and Lucy are sent
• 22:39
  Speaker 3: from London during the Blitz to safety in the English
• 22:45
  Speaker 3: countryside to stay with a distant relative called the Professor,
• 22:52
  Speaker 3: who lives in this huge, old downton abby ass mansion,
• 23:00
  Speaker 3: and the children start to settle in. Peter is the eldest,
• 23:06
  Speaker 3: so he's like, you know, the responsible leader of the group.
• 23:10
  Speaker 3: Lucy is the youngest, so she's the baby. She wants
• 23:14
  Speaker 3: to play games all the time.
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: Lucy is a legend. I love Lucy.
• 23:19
  Speaker 3: Wow, you love Lucy?
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: I wow, no one's ever said that before. I love Lucy.
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: I also just remembered I loved the actress who played her.
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: I just follows her on Instagram the other day. She's thriving,
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: she's like bisexual icon, winning like theater awards in London.
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: She's killing it nice. But little Georgie Henley, Oh, I
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: loved her. Her and her little Bob. Come on, she's cute.
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: She's so cute.
• 23:46
  Speaker 3: Then there's Edmund, the second youngest.
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: Who is now basically like a what I always forget
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: the like the names of the British Conservative Party. He's
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: basically he that actor Scandar Keynes is now like an
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: advisor for English Conservatives. Oooh yeah, kind of a bummer.
• 24:07
  Speaker 3: Well, I mean, based on his character of Edmund, I know,
• 24:11
  Speaker 3: it was all very surprised because it.
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: Was all there. I know, he's canonically aligned with fascism always.
• 24:17
  Speaker 3: Oh yeah, yeah, Edmund is a little shit. That's his
• 24:22
  Speaker 3: main character trait. And then Susan is there too.
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: Oh I that's not nice to Susan.
• 24:30
  Speaker 3: I mean, it's not okay, it's not a reflection of
• 24:33
  Speaker 3: how I feel about Susan. I like Susan, but I
• 24:35
  Speaker 3: feel like the story is just like and she's here
• 24:39
  Speaker 3: as well.
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: I do agree. I feel like if you like Susan,
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: you kind of need to like build some headcanon for
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: her because also, and we'll talk about this, she gets
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: written out of later books in a pretty pointed way,
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: which we can we can talk about after we talk
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: about the movie. Damn.
• 24:55
  Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, So those are the kids One Rainy Day.
• 24:59
  Speaker 3: Lucy's a just they play hide and seek, and she
• 25:02
  Speaker 3: wanders into a mysterious spare room or spare oom with
• 25:08
  Speaker 3: nothing inside but a large wardrobe. She goes inside the
• 25:12
  Speaker 3: wardrobe and it's full of these like fur coats as
• 25:16
  Speaker 3: well as an entire country.
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: Shames McAvoy topless. I'm like elbowing against the back of
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: any cabinet as a twelve year old, being like, where
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: is he at? Where's the at? But he was never
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: in there.
• 25:29
  Speaker 3: So this wardrobe is this like portal to this alternate
• 25:35
  Speaker 3: dimension fantasy realm called Narnia.
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: It's so awesome. It's right up there with like the
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: entry into Oz for me of like entering another world
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: and feeling so like practical and so magical, and it's
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: just it's just beautiful. I love It's great. I love
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: this shit right, It's so well done. And it's especially
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: because like pretty soon after you're like entering kind of
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: like Uncanny Valley Marvel territory. But it's like it's just
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: so pretty. I love it.
• 26:06
  Speaker 3: And it's very cold and snowy and everything is snow covered,
• 26:11
  Speaker 3: and there's a lamp post that's like the landmark that
• 26:15
  Speaker 3: lets you know that, oh, you're near the entrance of
• 26:18
  Speaker 3: the Wardrobe.
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: Which legend has it, Oh that these whatever J R.
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: Tolkien and C. S Lewis best best friends, like jar R.
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: Tolkien is one of the main motivating factors for C. S.
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: Lewis to become a Christian because C. S. Lewis didn't
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: become a Christian in a meaningful way until his thirties.
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: But he was just hanging out with his boy JR. R.
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: Y and Jarr got him into it. But I guess
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: that whatever j R. R. Tolkien was like, I bet you
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: couldn't make something like an innocuous object feel really magical.
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: And that's where the lamp post comes from. Huh okay, yeah,
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: and guess what he did it? He did it and
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: he made feminist iconost and feminist icon mister Tumdus.
• 27:09
  Speaker 3: Right, because the first being that Lucy encounters in Narnia
• 27:15
  Speaker 3: is a fawn named Tumnus. And he's like, oh my gosh,
• 27:22
  Speaker 3: are you a daughter of Eve? A human child? And
• 27:26
  Speaker 3: she's like, yeah, bitch, what do you mean? And he's like, wow,
• 27:30
  Speaker 3: I've never seen a human before. Why don't you come
• 27:32
  Speaker 3: to my house for tea? So Lucy goes to Tumnus's house.
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: He's but well, he says, he does not really say tea.
• 27:40
  Speaker 3: Though.
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: He gets this little girl to come to his house
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: by being like, I've got it. I got pounds and
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: pounds of sardines at my house.
• 27:48
  Speaker 3: Like right, He's like, there's toast and cake and maybe
• 27:53
  Speaker 3: if you're good, I'll bust out the sardines, as if
• 27:56
  Speaker 3: that's like a selling point.
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: And then Lucy validates it. She's like, well, if you've
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: got sardines, I was like wow, I like this is
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: like I.
• 28:04
  Speaker 3: Don't understand what's going on in the UK A British
• 28:07
  Speaker 3: children loved sardines.
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: Wow, the one way to lure a child. A stranger
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: luring a child into his home with the promise of sardines.
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: You're like, sure, Wow, I guess I guess it was
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: you know, economic downturn. You know it was hard and
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: I do. We'll talk about this, but I did appreciate.
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: I mean, this is like more I feel like it's
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: it's in the book, but it's more like thoroughly grounded.
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: In the movie of like the children are you know,
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: displaced and you know they're separated from their mom and
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: it's really sad.
• 28:41
  Speaker 3: There's a scene at the beginning of this movie where
• 28:44
  Speaker 3: their mom takes them to a train station that kind
• 28:48
  Speaker 3: of looks like Paddington Station, and she puts these tags
• 28:51
  Speaker 3: on them that basically say, like here's the train stop
• 28:56
  Speaker 3: that these kids are supposed to get off at, and
• 28:58
  Speaker 3: here's their names, and like who's so supposed to come
• 29:00
  Speaker 3: and collect them? I think is like probably generally the
• 29:03
  Speaker 3: information that was on these And it's very similar to
• 29:07
  Speaker 3: in Paddington when Aunt Lucy puts the tag on him
• 29:11
  Speaker 3: and it says, please look after this bear, and then
• 29:13
  Speaker 3: he shows up at the train station in London.
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: There really are kind of like four little bears being
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: shipped out to the country.
• 29:19
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's just it's sort of like the opposite journey,
• 29:22
  Speaker 3: but it's the same sentiment as far as like these
• 29:26
  Speaker 3: small children are displaced. Yeah, they're refugees and they're like
• 29:31
  Speaker 3: seeking safety they ah.
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it really made me think more this time again. Like,
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: I don't know, I think if we have recorded this
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: episode ten years ago, I would have been extremely hostile
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: to the concept of faith as it's presented within these books.
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: But I don't know, I don't know, if it's just
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: I'm older, whatever it is, But like I do. I
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: did kind of appreciate it more this time around, where
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: it's like the grounding of like these kids are displaced
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: from their family, their refugees, and they're like kind of
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: looking for something to feel grounded in and believe in,
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: and so in the context of that, you're like, yeah,
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: it makes sense. True.
• 30:08
  Speaker 3: So mister Tumnus is like, Lucy, I've got sardines at
• 30:12
  Speaker 3: my house, come on over, and she's like, you bet
• 30:15
  Speaker 3: UK listeners.
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: Would this work on you there?
• 30:19
  Speaker 3: Yeah? Let us know please, And she's like, hell, yeah,
• 30:23
  Speaker 3: I'll do that. So she goes to his house and
• 30:25
  Speaker 3: eventually Tumness confesses that he is in the employ of
• 30:31
  Speaker 3: someone named the White Witch, who is an evil woman
• 30:35
  Speaker 3: who has taken control of Narnia. She's the one who
• 30:38
  Speaker 3: makes it always winter but never Christmas ugh, and she
• 30:42
  Speaker 3: had instructed Tumness to kidnap any humans he finds, And
• 30:47
  Speaker 3: Tumness reveals that he is actively kidnapping Lucy, but he's
• 30:53
  Speaker 3: had a change of heart and so he helps her
• 30:56
  Speaker 3: get back home through the wardrobe back into the house.
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: It's really sweet and I feel like is a great
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: sort of foregrounding of what I think Susan I agree
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: with you. Is like not a very well rounded out
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: or thought through character, but I really liked how like
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: Lucy from the very beginning is like I don't know,
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: like she's she is effective. She was like, no, you
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: can't kidnap me. Look at me. I'm so cute. And
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: then he's like, damn, you're right, you're right, you gotta go.
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: Like that scene was great.
• 31:29
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and then he's crying and she's like, here's my handkerchief,
• 31:32
  Speaker 3: like you need this more than I do, and their
• 31:34
  Speaker 3: besties and their besties from that moment fourth it's true.
• 31:38
  Speaker 3: So Lucy enters back through the wardrobe into the spare
• 31:41
  Speaker 3: room and discovers that even though hours have passed in Narnia,
• 31:45
  Speaker 3: no time has passed in like her world. And when
• 31:51
  Speaker 3: Lucy tells her siblings about Narnia, they don't believe her,
• 31:56
  Speaker 3: and Edmund especially is a shit about it, but they
• 32:00
  Speaker 3: like give her the benefit of the doubt. They investigate
• 32:03
  Speaker 3: the wardrobe, but when they, you know, open it up,
• 32:06
  Speaker 3: it just seems like a normal wardrobe. One night, a
• 32:10
  Speaker 3: short time later, a very determined Lucy goes into the
• 32:14
  Speaker 3: wardrobe again. Edmund sees her and follows her, and this
• 32:20
  Speaker 3: time Narnia is back. It's there in the wardrobe, and
• 32:25
  Speaker 3: we stay with Edmund as he starts to explore Narnia,
• 32:29
  Speaker 3: and who does he immediately encounter but the White Witch herself.
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: Literally Satan inserts Evan walks in and immediately a tried
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: look and it's his vibes. It's I'm just saying, Lucy
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: does not immediately attract Satan, right, Yeah.
• 32:47
  Speaker 3: But Edmund is Judas or something, and.
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: So well, this is well we'll talk about it. Like there,
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: I think a lot of people are like trying to
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: figure out the one to one of Narnia and person
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: he has Lewis He's like, no, it's not one. Yeah,
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: there's like definitely like Aslan is like obviously Jesus, and
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: the White Witch is definitely Satan Codd but like outside
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: of that, there's not a ton of one to one.
• 33:15
  Speaker 3: Right, So we meet the White Witch played by Tilda Swinton,
• 33:20
  Speaker 3: and it's a white woman with dreadlocks. So we're like,
• 33:24
  Speaker 3: we're like, beware.
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: That's that's the truth. That is true. That's the kind
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: of a universal indicator of maybe do not trust. Yeah,
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: it is incredible to me that this is how an
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: entire generation of children learned who till this Swinton was?
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: I mean, this is absolutely how I learned who till
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: the Swinton was. Sure, it's like right up there with
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: like Antonio Banderas and spy kids with like an incredible
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: way to introduce a child to an iconic actor. M
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: so good. Yeah, I love those. Yeah. Perfect.
• 33:55
  Speaker 3: The Witch tells Edmund that she's the Queen of Narnia,
• 33:59
  Speaker 3: and she gives him some magical Turkish delight, which puts
• 34:04
  Speaker 3: him under a spell, which basically makes him even more
• 34:08
  Speaker 3: shitty than he already is.
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but it's like, arguably it didn't take a lot, right.
• 34:14
  Speaker 3: Yeah, And she tells Edmund to bring his siblings to her.
• 34:19
  Speaker 3: If he does, she might make him Prince of Narnia,
• 34:23
  Speaker 3: so he agrees. She leaves, and then Lucy shows up.
• 34:28
  Speaker 3: She's been visiting with mister Tumnus again, and Lucy is
• 34:33
  Speaker 3: delighted because now Edmund can vouch for Narnia existing to
• 34:37
  Speaker 3: Peter and Susan. But when the time comes, Edmund betrays
• 34:42
  Speaker 3: Lucy and says that she's making it all up.
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: Oh he's dirty for this. I hate. If there's one
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: bitch I hate, it's Edmund Pevensey. I hate that little asshole.
• 34:54
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and I kind of like, due to reasons we'll
• 34:56
  Speaker 3: talk about, I kind of love Peter because Peter's like
• 34:59
  Speaker 3: fuck Edmund.
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: Peter's t Lucy.
• 35:02
  Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, And so Lucy is devastated by this, and
• 35:06
  Speaker 3: Peter and Susan go to the Professor, who, by the way,
• 35:10
  Speaker 3: is played by Jim Broadbent, who plays Paddington. Wow, so
• 35:16
  Speaker 3: similarities keep piling up.
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: He's really great, and his character I don't remember. I
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: don't know, like if you countered this, but his character whatever,
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: there's a whole like Langwich and the Wardrobe is the
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: first book published in this series, but it's the second
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: canonically in the series when it's all written.
• 35:34
  Speaker 3: Out in like chronology. Yeah.
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so like story wise, the what's his name? What's
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: the Jim Bradbent character's name?
• 35:44
  Speaker 3: Professor?
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: I don't even know if he has a more specific name.
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: He definitely does, because oh, professor Kirk, Professor Kirk. If
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: I did my research correctly, in the first book in
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: the Chronicles of Narnia series, he is a boy in
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: that book and like whatever, something something. I think there's
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: an apple tree and with the wood from the apple tree,
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: they make the wardrobe, so he like went to Narnia
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: as a child, and the wardrobe has access to Narnia
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: because it's made from Narnian wood or whatever. So when
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: he's like he he haha, tell me more about it,
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: it's because he's been to Narnia.
• 36:25
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's that's heavily implied in this movie.
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: But unfortunately, for my money, one of the more boring books.
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: I'm like, I don't need like tree Lore. I'm not
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: worried about where it came from. I made tree Beard
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: any day Lewis, I don't remember. I just like struggle
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: with fantasy. There's too many details. It's too hard for me.
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: But I don't remember, Like what is the vibe of
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: tree Beard? Is it like passive aggressive to be like
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: your tree Beard or is it kind of like nice?
• 36:56
  Speaker 3: He I think is a generally liked character, but he
• 37:01
  Speaker 3: talks really slowly because he's a tree. Therefore I find
• 37:06
  Speaker 3: him kind of boring.
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: Okay, because the C. C. S. Lewis was like, from
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: what I could tell, was known to be like really
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: loud and yappy. Oh but I don't know. Anyways, there's a.
• 37:19
  Speaker 3: Part in Two Towers when tree Beard rallies a bunch
• 37:23
  Speaker 3: of other trees or ents rather, and they're like, oh
• 37:26
  Speaker 3: my god, let's go kill Sarmon and then they attack
• 37:29
  Speaker 3: Eisengarde and destroy it and it's this really great sequence.
• 37:33
  Speaker 3: Yeah remember that, Jamie.
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: No I was like, yeah, so, okay, I'm sorry. I
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: just double checked my my stars the one wiki to
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: rule them all, which says yes. Treebeard's deep, booming voice
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: was directly inspired by C. S. Lewis's. Tolkien reportedly told
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: Neville Coghill, god, that's a British name, that he modeled
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: Treebeard's voice off of the booming voice of C. S. Lewis,
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: including the rum mannerisms, and that like it. I guess C.
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: Has Lewis had a wide gate. Men are so weird. Anyways,
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: let's go back to Okay, back to the story I'm Born,
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: So Peter and Susan, because Lucy is so insistent that
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: Narnia is real.
• 38:20
  Speaker 3: Yeah, Peter and Susan go to the professor to be like,
• 38:23
  Speaker 3: what do you think is going on? And the Professor's
• 38:25
  Speaker 3: just like, hey, maybe tried believing your sister, you little shits. Oh,
• 38:30
  Speaker 3: And they're like, oh, I guess yeah.
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: He's like, apologize, apologize, now bitch.
• 38:37
  Speaker 3: Then one day the kids accidentally break some shit in
• 38:40
  Speaker 3: the house and they have to run away from Ms McCready,
• 38:44
  Speaker 3: who works for the professor, and they all end up
• 38:47
  Speaker 3: in the spare room and they hide in the wardrobe,
• 38:50
  Speaker 3: and sure enough they all wind up in Narnia, and
• 38:54
  Speaker 3: Peter and Susan are like, oh my god, so sorry,
• 38:57
  Speaker 3: Lucy that we did not believe you. You were so
• 39:01
  Speaker 3: true all along.
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: And then Peter's like, Edmund, you're a little asshole, piece
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: of your piece of shit, and and he's right, He's right.
• 39:11
  Speaker 3: So then they all head to mister Tumnus's house, only
• 39:14
  Speaker 3: to discover that he has been abducted by the White
• 39:18
  Speaker 3: Witch's Wolf Police Force for fratenizing with humans aka Lucy.
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: I do feel like there's like a little bit of uh,
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: you know, real life fascism commentary going on here. I
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: particularly liked the line of like, I don't know, every
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: kid has the moment realizing this, they're like, she'll we
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: called the police. No, the police are doing this, and
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: they're like, oh, so we have to do something a
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: bat at, yes.
• 39:45
  Speaker 3: Yes, So the siblings decide to try to help Tumnus,
• 39:51
  Speaker 3: but they're not sure what to do until mister Beaver
• 39:56
  Speaker 3: shows up. Your favorite, your favorite I do like mister Beaver.
• 40:01
  Speaker 3: He brings them to his house where he lives with
• 40:05
  Speaker 3: his wife, Missus Beaver. And what does she do well,
• 40:10
  Speaker 3: She cooks them dinner. Women be cooking, even beaver women.
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: Even beaver women. To be fair, you know, C. S
• 40:19
  Speaker 1: Lewis was kind of dating his mom, so it's kind
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: of like it's C. S. Lewis's views on women. And
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: I'm not saying that they're excusable. I'm just saying that
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: they're they're they're very particular because he's fucking Patty's mom
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: while he's writing this book, and you're just like whatever
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: they took in, I guess during World War Two they
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: the two of them took in refugees, which I'm sure
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: had some influence on this story. And there are stories
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: of like, you know, like young people who passed through
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: the house kind of in like a boarding house capacity
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: that were like he was really lovely and yeah they
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: had something, who knows, and they were together. They were together,
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: all right. I forget where that was going, but yeah,
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: I was like, it is like it is very you know,
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: gender essentialist for him to be like women be cooking.
• 41:08
  Speaker 1: But I'm like, is he just thinking like mommy's be cooking?
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: Are all women mommies? To him? Oh no, we don't know.
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: Which is still misogynous, but you know, just food for that.
• 41:18
  Speaker 3: And speaking of food, they all sit down to missus
• 41:20
  Speaker 3: Beaver's fish and chips. It's no sardines, but I mean
• 41:25
  Speaker 3: I was, I was hungry.
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: I was like fish. Oh, I love I love some
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: fish and chips.
• 41:30
  Speaker 3: So during the dinner, mister Beaver tells the kids about Aslan,
• 41:36
  Speaker 3: a lion who is the rightful king of the land.
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: He literally is like, while I've got you here, I'd
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: like to tell you about my one and only Lord, Lord,
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: say Jesus Christ, You're like, oh no, I knew. I
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: knew that the food's never really free.
• 41:50
  Speaker 3: You know, it comes at a price. Aslan has been
• 41:54
  Speaker 3: gone for many generations, but word has it that he's
• 41:58
  Speaker 3: on his way back to Narnia to set things right.
• 42:02
  Speaker 3: Mister Beaver also tells them about a prophecy that when
• 42:06
  Speaker 3: two sons of Adam and two daughters of Eve, the
• 42:10
  Speaker 3: two genders according to C. S. Lewis, sit on thrones
• 42:16
  Speaker 3: at the Castle care paravel that will defeat the White
• 42:22
  Speaker 3: Witch and restore peace to Narnia. So it's speculated that
• 42:28
  Speaker 3: these four siblings are who the prophecy is about. Then Peter, Susan,
• 42:33
  Speaker 3: and Lucy discover that Edmund has snuck out and abandoned
• 42:38
  Speaker 3: them at some point during dinner, and he's heading to
• 42:42
  Speaker 3: the White Witch's castle. And the only thing that really
• 42:46
  Speaker 3: can save any of them now is Aslan. So mister
• 42:51
  Speaker 3: and Missus Beaver and the three remaining siblings set off
• 42:56
  Speaker 3: toward Aslan. And this is where things start to slightly
• 43:02
  Speaker 3: depart from the book a little bit in that there's
• 43:05
  Speaker 3: like some more.
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: Like an added action sequence. Ye kind of yeah, it's
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: I wouldn't say it's thrilling. It feels very like studio notes,
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: like we need.
• 43:16
  Speaker 3: We need a big action set piece right here.
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: I'm not mad about it, but yeah, yeah.
• 43:21
  Speaker 3: So they set off and they're being chased by wolves.
• 43:26
  Speaker 3: The wolf police acab includes these wolf.
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: Cops, includes the Michael Madsen Wolf.
• 43:34
  Speaker 3: Or whatever, the voice actors.
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: The voice actors. It's kind of funky, yeah, mister Fox
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: Rupert Everett.
• 43:42
  Speaker 3: Didn't know, yes of Shrek two fame?
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: Yes, Well, because this movie we have how could we
• 43:49
  Speaker 1: have gotten this far into it. Directed by Andrew Adamson,
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: the director of Shrek, Shrek two, Yeah, And can I
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: just say yes, that's range is range? That is range.
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: Shrek two comes out the year before this. I would
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: never in a million years guess this is the same guy.
• 44:08
  Speaker 3: I know. Yeah, where are the fart jokes in Narnia?
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: I think, you know? And the restraint there was strength
• 44:15
  Speaker 1: he shows. And I don't know what, I'm curious. Maybe
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: it's like one of those things where it's like he
• 44:21
  Speaker 1: just has so much money he does. He's like, whatever
• 44:23
  Speaker 1: Shrek residuals, you know, will feed my family for centuries.
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: But he really like does so he does Shrek, Shrek two, yeah,
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: and then all three chronicles and no directs the first
• 44:34
  Speaker 1: two Chronicles in Narnia movies, and then in twenty twelve
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: directs a movie called Mister Pip starring Hugh Laurie. I'm saying,
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: you're like, hmm, okay, that's none of my business. And
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: then a cert Di Silay movie, and that's kind of it.
• 44:50
  Speaker 1: And that's like kind of it. I think it seems
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: like he kind of produces.
• 44:53
  Speaker 3: It's too yeah, producing, because he produces other Shrek properties
• 44:59
  Speaker 3: such as the Puss in Boots movies and the other
• 45:03
  Speaker 3: Shrek movies.
• 45:04
  Speaker 1: I would be curious at like how involved he actually
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: is in those though, or if it's just sort of
• 45:10
  Speaker 1: like he's mister Shrek, so he's got to get a
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: credit on everything, Shrek Forever, right, Shrek Forever after you
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: can even say whoa which he mysteriously actually does not
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: have a credit on. No, he is the EP on
• 45:22
  Speaker 1: Shrek Forever after? Oh is he? Yeah? Oh yes it is? Yes,
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: I am okay, Yeah, shout out Andrew Adamson. Yeah, we
• 45:29
  Speaker 1: were not familiar with your game and then we were
• 45:32
  Speaker 1: and then you kind of stop directing stuff.
• 45:34
  Speaker 3: So well more men should stop directing stuff. So I'm
• 45:37
  Speaker 3: not mad about it.
• 45:38
  Speaker 1: I'm not mad about it. I'm just saying the range
• 45:40
  Speaker 1: Shrek two two thousand and four Chronicles and Arria two
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: thousand and five, it's impressive.
• 45:43
  Speaker 3: It is it is. And yeah, there's a Rupert Everett
• 45:48
  Speaker 3: voiced Fox character in this movie that I think is
• 45:54
  Speaker 3: a complete edition, not in the book at all.
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: And kind of like for what, like I wasn't really
• 46:01
  Speaker 1: sure what this yeah, because I didn't remember if I
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: went through like a list of changes but like you're
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: sort of like, why, I don't know. I never want
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: a movie to have more CG animals.
• 46:14
  Speaker 3: So right, right, yeah, but I do want movies to
• 46:17
  Speaker 3: have more rupert everet.
• 46:19
  Speaker 1: So it's a toss up. It's complicated. Oh you know
• 46:22
  Speaker 1: what we need to talk about, and this is like
• 46:24
  Speaker 1: there's obviously there's not time right now. But Sarah Marshall
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: was visiting this weekend and I forget how we watch
• 46:32
  Speaker 1: We got to this. But are you aware of the
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: movie mister Wrong? No, okay, I was not aware of
• 46:38
  Speaker 1: it either. Is a rom com from nineteen ninety six
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: during Ellen DeGeneres pre coming out.
• 46:44
  Speaker 3: Oh right, this one, okay, I with Bill Pullman. I
• 46:47
  Speaker 3: know the poster, but I've never seen the movie.
• 46:50
  Speaker 1: Genuinely, one of the more unhinged things I've ever seen.
• 46:52
  Speaker 1: I think we should cover it on the Matreon at
• 46:54
  Speaker 1: some point because people like absolutely hated it, and it's
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: time and I'm not saying it's good. I am saying
• 47:02
  Speaker 1: I never knew what was gonna happen. Like I was
• 47:05
  Speaker 1: on the edge of my seat. You will not believe
• 47:08
  Speaker 1: the list of things that happen in the movie, mister Wrong. Okay.
• 47:13
  Speaker 1: The least of which is Ellen degenerous peek Ellen Right, Well,
• 47:17
  Speaker 1: like I guess, like the first phase of Ellen pre
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: talk show. She made two million dollars to be in
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: that movie, and she does accidentally look into the camera twice.
• 47:30
  Speaker 1: Incredible ten out of ten on the rampometer. But you know,
• 47:33
  Speaker 1: someday it would be interesting to cover on the Bechdel
• 47:35
  Speaker 1: Cast because Bill Pullman is giving one of the weirdest
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: performances I think I've ever seen.
• 47:39
  Speaker 3: Whoa Okay, listeners, really do you want that? Do you
• 47:43
  Speaker 3: want us to talk about mister wrong?
• 47:45
  Speaker 1: We will because yeah, I mean you we could, we could.
• 47:49
  Speaker 1: I would watch it again. Okay, yeah, all right. Anyways,
• 47:53
  Speaker 1: back to the chronicles.
• 47:56
  Speaker 3: Okay, so most of the siblings are trying to get
• 48:00
  Speaker 3: their way to Aslan and they're being chased by the wolves. Meanwhile,
• 48:05
  Speaker 3: Edmund shows up at the Witch's castle and she's pissed
• 48:08
  Speaker 3: that he came alone since he was supposed to bring
• 48:11
  Speaker 3: his siblings, and she's about to kill him or maybe
• 48:14
  Speaker 3: turn him into stone because she loves doing that.
• 48:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, she kind of like it feels like you have
• 48:19
  Speaker 1: like a weird James McAvoy, like han solo carbonite guy.
• 48:23
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and Edmund's like, no, wait, the beaver mentioned something
• 48:27
  Speaker 3: about Aslan, So now the Witch knows that Aslan is
• 48:32
  Speaker 3: coming back to Narnia and she really does not like this,
• 48:36
  Speaker 3: so she takes Edmund to go looking for the others
• 48:40
  Speaker 3: so that she can kill them to prevent the prophecy
• 48:44
  Speaker 3: from coming true. And Edmund is finally starting to realize
• 48:49
  Speaker 3: that maybe the White Witch is not very nice and
• 48:51
  Speaker 3: that maybe he shouldn't align himself with fascism.
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: He's a bit dense, isn't he, it it, and really,
• 48:58
  Speaker 1: like many before him, and you know, I'm sure that
• 49:01
  Speaker 1: this is commentary of some sort. He really only starts
• 49:04
  Speaker 1: to be like, maybe I shouldn't do this when it
• 49:05
  Speaker 1: starts to affect him personally. It is when he's thrown
• 49:08
  Speaker 1: in jail that he's like, wait, maybe I don't like this, right? Yes.
• 49:14
  Speaker 3: Meanwhile, the children and the beavers, they're still like journeying
• 49:18
  Speaker 3: toward the stone table, which is like Asland headquarters. The
• 49:23
  Speaker 3: Witch catches up with them in her sleigh. But wait
• 49:27
  Speaker 3: a minute, it's not the Witch. It's Santa Claus.
• 49:31
  Speaker 1: I always forget that Santa is in this movie. It
• 49:34
  Speaker 1: is so weird that Santa is in this movie. I
• 49:38
  Speaker 1: like it, but you're like, why is Santa in the movie.
• 49:43
  Speaker 1: I mean Santa knows God? Like what do you mean? Well,
• 49:47
  Speaker 1: Santa feels kind of I think if Santa's kind of
• 49:49
  Speaker 1: his own thing, he's a secular guy. But no, not here,
• 49:52
  Speaker 1: Santa knows Jesus. He's like, Santa's like Jesus has returned,
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: Like I don't know's I see that scene and I'm
• 50:00
  Speaker 1: sure why not? And and he gives them weapons. He's like,
• 50:04
  Speaker 1: Merry Christmas, bitch, you're going to war. And then he's like, yeah, weird.
• 50:10
  Speaker 3: He gives Lucy a little dagger and some magic healing juice.
• 50:17
  Speaker 1: Because women be healing, not fighting, as we will see
• 50:20
  Speaker 1: m M.
• 50:21
  Speaker 3: He gives Susan a bow and arrow as well as
• 50:26
  Speaker 3: a horn, which is meant to like communicate with others,
• 50:30
  Speaker 3: because the burden of communications on women.
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: Women be communicating, women be witnessing the crucifixion. Like I
• 50:39
  Speaker 1: got lost after a while of like what women be doing.
• 50:41
  Speaker 1: But yeah, yeah, Peter gets a big soul. He's a
• 50:46
  Speaker 1: fifteen year old boy a lethal weapon, and he's like,
• 50:49
  Speaker 1: I just again, you're like things you're not used to
• 50:51
  Speaker 1: seeing Santa doing is that what happened in that movie
• 50:54
  Speaker 1: Red One? We don't know?
• 50:56
  Speaker 3: Well I do know because I saw it.
• 50:58
  Speaker 1: Oh because oh I forgot you were the one. You
• 51:01
  Speaker 1: were the one person who saw it. I really I
• 51:04
  Speaker 1: that maybe maybe I'll maybe I'll watch it this year
• 51:07
  Speaker 1: if it's free, because I like those polar Bears were
• 51:11
  Speaker 1: They're so jagged. Not that that's a selling point. I
• 51:14
  Speaker 1: guess I made it sound like I gotta see because.
• 51:17
  Speaker 3: I don't really remember what happened in that movie. I
• 51:22
  Speaker 3: think that I do remember not liking it. So Lucy
• 51:25
  Speaker 3: Losing it right, I should watch it? How bad could
• 51:28
  Speaker 3: it be, Lucy Lose? I think in it, I remember
• 51:31
  Speaker 3: the Rock is in it. The Rock is well, yeah,
• 51:34
  Speaker 3: he'll do he'll do anything. True.
• 51:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah okay.
• 51:37
  Speaker 3: So also Santa Claus is presence, his p R E
• 51:43
  Speaker 3: s E n ce, not his not his like gifts.
• 51:47
  Speaker 3: Hold for a clause again, Calm down, everybody.
• 51:52
  Speaker 1: Sorry, we've been doing this for a while. Not anyone
• 51:54
  Speaker 1: could do that.
• 51:56
  Speaker 3: His presence in Narnia means that things are starting to change,
• 51:59
  Speaker 3: because before there was never Christmas, but now there's Christmas.
• 52:03
  Speaker 3: And we also see the snow and ice starting to thaw.
• 52:08
  Speaker 3: And melt away, and then there's this whole actiony set
• 52:12
  Speaker 3: piece of the siblings trying to cross a river as
• 52:18
  Speaker 3: the ice is breaking because it's melting and the wolves
• 52:21
  Speaker 3: are chasing them. But then they escape and they make
• 52:24
  Speaker 3: it to the Stone Table, where Aslan has assembled an
• 52:29
  Speaker 3: army of like centaurs and shit. Aslan comes out, and
• 52:35
  Speaker 3: of course he is the lion king, and he takes
• 52:40
  Speaker 3: Peter aside, and they gaze upon the land and he's
• 52:44
  Speaker 3: basically like, Simba, my son. Everything the light touches will
• 52:49
  Speaker 3: be yours.
• 52:50
  Speaker 1: It's true. And you're like and I and and like,
• 52:54
  Speaker 1: you know, twenty years later, the cgi isn't great. Liam
• 52:56
  Speaker 1: Neeson does elect to just use his neson Lion Neeson
• 53:02
  Speaker 1: is using really just his speaking voice. Like, yes, Grant
• 53:06
  Speaker 1: was in the kitchen when I was watching the movie
• 53:08
  Speaker 1: and didn't even need to look. He's like, I didn't
• 53:10
  Speaker 1: know Liam Neeson was in this movie. I was like, well, yeah,
• 53:12
  Speaker 1: I guess he's not really acting. He's just talking. But
• 53:16
  Speaker 1: I don't know what it was. Something about that damn lion,
• 53:19
  Speaker 1: something about that damn lion. I just you wanted to
• 53:21
  Speaker 1: kiss him every night. I didn't just want to I did. Yeah,
• 53:29
  Speaker 1: no accounting for it.
• 53:31
  Speaker 3: Look, no judgment.
• 53:33
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 53:33
  Speaker 3: So they're all hanging out now at the Stone Table.
• 53:37
  Speaker 3: Then the wolf cops show up and they're about to
• 53:41
  Speaker 3: attack Lucy and Susan, but then Peter saves them and
• 53:45
  Speaker 3: he kills one of the wolves with his sword, and
• 53:49
  Speaker 3: so now he's a man or something.
• 53:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it gets pretty gender essentialist in the back in
• 53:57
  Speaker 1: the back half.
• 53:58
  Speaker 3: Yes me. Meanwhile, the White Witch is gathering an army
• 54:03
  Speaker 3: of her own, and she's also making her way to
• 54:06
  Speaker 3: the Stone Table. But before she gets there, a few
• 54:09
  Speaker 3: of Aslan's soldiers appear rescue Edmund and bring him back
• 54:15
  Speaker 3: to the others, and Aslan is basically like, don't worry Edmund,
• 54:21
  Speaker 3: you don't need to apologize, and kids, you just have
• 54:25
  Speaker 3: to forgive your brother for what he did.
• 54:28
  Speaker 1: Right, And I mean, look, I guess if you're the
• 54:33
  Speaker 1: other Pevincy's what are you gonna do. You can't really
• 54:36
  Speaker 1: kill your eleven year old brother.
• 54:39
  Speaker 3: You can't kill him, but you can, I don't know,
• 54:41
  Speaker 3: hold him somewhat accountable for yes, I mean, I.
• 54:45
  Speaker 1: Be trading them. I think at this point it gets
• 54:48
  Speaker 1: tricky because we're like stuck in the Christianity of it all,
• 54:51
  Speaker 1: where it's like, Okay, you know, he's been forgiven, like
• 54:55
  Speaker 1: Jesus has forgiven him, and we have to do the
• 54:58
  Speaker 1: christ like thing and be like right, even though it's like, yeah,
• 55:01
  Speaker 1: he should be at least demoted. I'm not advocating that
• 55:04
  Speaker 1: we kill the kid, but like, you know, he should
• 55:08
  Speaker 1: feel he should. This is not the kind of kid
• 55:11
  Speaker 1: that I feel like learns a lesson from being shown
• 55:13
  Speaker 1: grace and forgiveness by everyone. But you know whatever, right, Yeah.
• 55:18
  Speaker 3: So, then the four children prepare for the impending battle
• 55:23
  Speaker 3: with the Witch in her army. She shows up to
• 55:27
  Speaker 3: be like, according to the laws of Narnia something something
• 55:31
  Speaker 3: deep magic, any trader belongs to me, so Edmund is
• 55:36
  Speaker 3: my property.
• 55:37
  Speaker 1: Well, and then he says, do not cite the deep
• 55:40
  Speaker 1: magic to me, which I was there when it was written,
• 55:43
  Speaker 1: and it's like it is kind of iconic. I love
• 55:46
  Speaker 1: that line. It's pretty it's pretty sick. Yeah he he
• 55:49
  Speaker 1: kind of, you know, he really showed her.
• 55:52
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Then Aslan and the Witch have a private meeting
• 55:57
  Speaker 3: where some negotiation is made in which Edmund is spared
• 56:03
  Speaker 3: and no longer belongs to the Witch, but in exchange
• 56:07
  Speaker 3: for what we don't yet know, but we find out
• 56:10
  Speaker 3: soon when that night, Susan and Lucy can't sleep, so
• 56:15
  Speaker 3: they leave their tent and see Aslan headed somewhere, so
• 56:19
  Speaker 3: they join him for a while, but then he has
• 56:21
  Speaker 3: to go on alone, and Susan and Lucy watch from
• 56:25
  Speaker 3: afar as he goes to the Stone Table, where he
• 56:29
  Speaker 3: is awaited by the Witch and her minions, who tie
• 56:35
  Speaker 3: Aslan up, They taunt him, they shave him, and then
• 56:39
  Speaker 3: the Witch kills him because apparently he had bargained to
• 56:43
  Speaker 3: save Edmund's life by agreeing to give his own. So
• 56:48
  Speaker 3: he dies, and then the Witch and her army leave.
• 56:53
  Speaker 3: Susan and Lucy approach Aslan's body. They're devastated. They're crying.
• 56:58
  Speaker 3: There's mice doing through the ropes, blah blah blah whatever.
• 57:03
  Speaker 3: They then send word via the trees to their brothers
• 57:08
  Speaker 3: that Aslan is dead. So now Peter has to lead
• 57:11
  Speaker 3: Aslan's army to war with the Witch, who shows up
• 57:16
  Speaker 3: on the battlefield looking like a lion herself.
• 57:21
  Speaker 1: Really great outfit, really great outfit. I don't really care
• 57:25
  Speaker 1: about battle scenes in general. It's just not my culture.
• 57:31
  Speaker 1: Same goes for the Lord of the Rings movies. I
• 57:34
  Speaker 1: do feel like this movie was kind of marketed as
• 57:37
  Speaker 1: Lord of the Rings Junior for sure, which and I
• 57:40
  Speaker 1: think kind of the books were as well, which is
• 57:42
  Speaker 1: really funny that these two guys knew each other very well,
• 57:44
  Speaker 1: and that j R. R. Tolkien was sort of like,
• 57:47
  Speaker 1: why do you write books for kids? You fucking lose her, you.
• 57:51
  Speaker 3: Know, even though The Hobbit his first book was for kids.
• 57:55
  Speaker 1: It just sounds like Jerr R. Tolkien was. I don't
• 57:57
  Speaker 1: know very much about them, and again, someone that people
• 58:00
  Speaker 1: write doctoral thesis on, so what do I know?
• 58:03
  Speaker 3: But it seems like he had kind of a streak
• 58:06
  Speaker 3: of pettiness, very British pettiness to him.
• 58:09
  Speaker 1: That seems kind of fun.
• 58:11
  Speaker 3: We love men being bitchy to each other.
• 58:13
  Speaker 1: So and it seems like these two were. Really they
• 58:16
  Speaker 1: were like both converting each other to various religions and
• 58:20
  Speaker 1: huge bitches like they were. It was a rich text
• 58:23
  Speaker 1: between them. But anyways, I like this battle scene more
• 58:27
  Speaker 1: than I like other battle scenes. I don't know, I
• 58:31
  Speaker 1: just wish that Susan and Lucy were allowed to participate
• 58:34
  Speaker 1: in it because it seems like the it seems like
• 58:35
  Speaker 1: the Witch is the only woman on the battlefield question.
• 58:38
  Speaker 1: I think so really bizarre that the one woman invited
• 58:42
  Speaker 1: is Satan, which feels pointed right right right.
• 58:46
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Also, this battle scene, which is like a paragraph
• 58:52
  Speaker 3: in the book, yeah, gets extended into this long sequence
• 58:57
  Speaker 3: in the movie because it comes out in the wake
• 59:00
  Speaker 3: of the Lord of the Rings movies. So every movie
• 59:03
  Speaker 3: like this needed a hashtag epic battle.
• 59:07
  Speaker 1: Which does manage to make this children's movie two and
• 59:10
  Speaker 1: a half hours long, which is like pretty.
• 59:12
  Speaker 3: And also really violent. Like the violence in this battle
• 59:16
  Speaker 3: scene is It's not bloody necessarily, but you feel the IMpower.
• 59:21
  Speaker 1: All war as hell. I kind of liked that though.
• 59:24
  Speaker 1: I feel like even as a kid, you're just like,
• 59:26
  Speaker 1: damn that. I don't know, but I also saw the
• 59:29
  Speaker 1: Lord of the Rings movies by that time, so maybe
• 59:32
  Speaker 1: it feels felt less. But yeah, it definitely didn't feel
• 59:35
  Speaker 1: like Battle Junior. It was pretty gory for kids.
• 59:38
  Speaker 3: It was graphic.
• 59:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah.
• 59:41
  Speaker 3: Okay. So meanwhile, the girls are not allowed to be
• 59:45
  Speaker 3: in the battle, so they have stayed with Aslan's body
• 59:48
  Speaker 3: all night, and then they finally start to leave, and
• 59:52
  Speaker 3: as they do, they hear this thunderous crack and they
• 59:57
  Speaker 3: look up and see that Aslan's body is gone and
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 3: the stone table is split in half, and then a
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 3: resurrected Jesus I mean Aslan appears and explains that the
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 3: Deep Magic says that if a willing victim who has
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 3: committed no treachery is killed in a trader's stead, then
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 3: death can be undone.
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 1: And you're like, oh, cool, he knew that hacking no
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 1: one else did.
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 3: So really convenient for this specific story.
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 1: I think for stuff like this, this is where and
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 1: this is like, you know, we won't get into it
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 1: because it's like so pedantic and weird, But there are
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 1: certain even though like this book is these where, these
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 1: books in general are pretty massively popular in many Christian circles,
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 1: there are still hardcore people that are like, Jesus would
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 1: never be a lion, that's pagan. And the fact that
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 1: they say deep magic, even the word magic, oh makes
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 1: some you know, like super hyper religious people like lose
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 1: their mind. I'm like, he made Jesus into a lion,
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 1: that is net good for your project? You would chill out.
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 3: M mm hmmm true. Yeah, Okay. So then Aslan takes
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 3: the sisters to the Witch's castle, where she has a
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 3: whole courtyard full of beings that she has turned to stone,
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 3: including Tumness, and then Aslan breathes his hot lion breath
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 3: on them and that brings them back to life.
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, kind of fun.
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 3: And then back on the battlefield, the Witch is turning
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 3: all of the good guys to stone with her wand
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 3: so Edmund destroys the wand but then she stabs Edmund,
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 3: so he's dying. Then Aslan shows up with everyone that
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 3: he had brought back from being stone, and then Aslan
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 3: attacks and kills the Witch in what should be like
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 3: the big climax of the movie, but it feels very
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 3: very anti climax.
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 1: Which is wild because the like you're saying, the build
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 1: up is massive, yeah, and then the yeah, the big kill,
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 1: You're like like, oh, blanket, you ad miss it. But
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 1: you know Edmund got stabbed, so.
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 3: Right, and he's dying. So Lucy gives him some of
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 3: her magic healing potion that Santa Claus gave her, which
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 3: is a ridiculous sentence to say, amazing, and then he
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 3: is absolutely fine now because this story is obsessed with
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 3: bringing people back from the.
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 1: Dead or near dead.
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 3: Then the four siblings are crowned the Kings and Queens
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 3: of Narnia at the Castle of care paravel just like
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 3: the prophecy foretold, and peace is restored to Narnia, and
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 3: then Aslan focks off to somewhere else because he's God
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 3: or Jesus or something and he's got other things to do, but.
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 1: He'll be back one day, just like they're always telling us.
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 1: And I like how mister Tumnus is sort of tasked
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 1: with having to explain that. He's like, yeah, you know, Jesus,
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 1: He's just kind of like, we don't know, maybe we'll
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 1: see him, maybe we want m m. And then he's like,
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 1: all right, do you want any more sardines or whatever?
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 1: And then we get that little moment with with Jim
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 1: Bradbent where he's like he he maybe you'll go back someday.
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 3: Oh yes. So the last beat here, or the last
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 3: few beats here, are that the siblings rule over Narnia
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 3: for a couple decades. They become adults and one day
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 3: they're out hunting in the woods and they happen upon
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 3: the lamp post near the entrance to Narnia and they're like, hmm,
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 3: that's kind of familiar, what's all this? And then they
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 3: go and they find the coats and the next thing
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 3: they know, they're tumbling out of the wardrobe. Except they're
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 3: back to being children and no time has passed. So
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 3: imagine like growing into adulthood, living this whole life as
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 3: like whatever, like imperial.
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 1: Ass like yeah, but yeah, just like living being in Narnia,
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 1: living out an entire fantasy. It is interesting that they
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 1: make that detail because again, like we'll get into it,
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 1: but like Susan later stops going in Narnia, h And
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 1: I'm sort of like, well, yeah, I mean like possible
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 1: that she's over it. She sounds like she's really put
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 1: in a lot of time there. Yeah, but they make
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 1: it out to be this big well we'll talk about it,
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 1: but they make it out to be this big thing.
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 1: I'm like, you know what, You're allowed to move on.
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 3: Sure, but yeah, it's just so weird that like they
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 3: grow into adulthood, they're like in their thirties maybe, and
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 3: then they revert back to childhood.
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and they're like, oh, why, my dad, it's still
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 1: World War two?
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 3: Like yeah, because like no time has passed. So they're
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 3: still at the professor's house and the professor comes in
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 3: and says basically welcome back from Narnia. Did you have
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 3: a nice time? Because he's been there too, is.
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 1: What it's implied. The end, the end.
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 3: So let's take another quick break and then we'll come
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 3: back to discuss.
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 1: And we're back, all right, Where do we start? I
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 1: feel like we've started. I mean, we've like touched on
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 1: a lot of my bigger notes, like story wise for this,
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 1: which is that like I don't know, like it's not
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 1: as bad as it could be. I guess for a
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 1: movie that's like pretty faithfully adapting a book from nineteen fifty.
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 1: But I mean I think that the big sort of
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 1: sweeping things going on here are it falls down like
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 1: very very very traditional gender lines. Yes, gender lion, you
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 1: might even say, I guess with the except the White Witch,
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 1: there's like a little more going on there, but not
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 1: necessarily in a positive way. But if we're talking about
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 1: the kids, I'm sort of of two minds about it
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 1: right where it's like I was surprised that the girls
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 1: were doing as much as they were for a book
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 1: of this age. But there are those broad like they
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 1: are not allowed to go to battle. They are sort
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 1: of tasked with the emotional burdens of I read that
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 1: like Susan and Lucy in the like religious read of
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 1: this book, you know, are supposed to almost like represent
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 1: Mary Magdalen of like witnessing the death of Christ and
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 1: then like having to and then witnessing his resurrection. I
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 1: don't know, I don't know maybe but anyways, you know,
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 1: I think the big thing is they don't get to
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 1: go to war. Susan's character I thought was very kind
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 1: of She's constantly golden for like thinking too hard. Yeah,
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 1: where you know Peter, I mean Peter and Susan. It's like,
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 1: in some ways it's like just an antagonistic sibling relationship.
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 1: They're the two eldest. There is a moment that I
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 1: couldn't even tell how intended it was, but towards the
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 1: beginning when the kids are being put on the train,
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 1: where their mom is referring to Peter as a man
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 1: and saying to like look out for everyone, and Susan
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 1: is referred to as a girl, and it seems to
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 1: kind of bother her, Like I think that she wants
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 1: to take more of a leadership role. Maybe this is
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 1: me Headcandon yet, but like it seems like she wants
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 1: to take more of a leadership role that Peter has
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 1: been given as like quote unquote the man of the house,
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 1: which I do think it is intentional. He clearly is
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 1: struggling with like he wants to fight in a war
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 1: like his father, right, and like that is presented pretty unambiguously.
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 1: I don't think that there's a lot of thought into it,
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 1: but like, you know, it makes sense that he then
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 1: is very quick to enlist in the Narnia War or
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 1: whatever because he wants to be like Daddy.
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 3: He's like, oh, well, Santa Claus gave me a sword,
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 3: so I have to use it.
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 1: But I will say I don't think that this movie
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 1: boils down to being like fathers and sons like you
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 1: would expect. True, it is kind of like about Jesus
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 1: and a bunch of kids, Yeah, lions and children, and
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 1: I think there is I think of the four kids,
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 1: Lucy is sort of the most memorable, and also I
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 1: think in the world of the books because she becomes
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 1: the protagonist of three out of the seven books and
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 1: the other kids sort of fall by the way side.
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 1: A star is born twenty eighteen, but whatever, just keeping
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 1: it focused on this, I like that Lucy is the
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 1: kid who discovers Narnia, who sticks to her guns about
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 1: it exists, and that her siblings, with the exception of Edmund,
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 1: who we hate, apologize to her and you know, like
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 1: see her worth and value throughout. So I don't know,
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 1: I mean, I think the big thing for me is
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 1: Susan being underwritten and the girls are not allowed to
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 1: participate in the big action piece. But that's more of
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 1: a criticism of the movie than the book, because the
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 1: book is like, the battle scenes are so short.
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 3: Right, The movie takes a lot of liberties with the
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 3: battle scenes, so it easily could have made adjustments to
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 3: be more inclusive of the girls, but it doesn't. And
• 1:09:34
  Speaker 3: this is like, this is what like most of my
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 3: notes are about. So yeah, I'll just kind of give
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 3: my little spiel here. Where As we've said, this movie
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 3: is a fairly faithful adaptation with a few exceptions. As
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 3: far as the script seems to add a few, like again,
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 3: actiony set pieces, it heightens tension. It generally just makes
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 3: the story more cinematic and like an action y so
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 3: for example, like the part where the wolves are chasing them,
• 1:10:07
  Speaker 3: the set piece at the river.
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 1: Like all the clunky CGI stuff feels like it's expanded added.
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, because those beats are in the book. But
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 3: like in the book, the wolves are following them, but
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 3: they never really get that close to the children, Like
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 3: on their journey to the Stone Table, the kids do
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 3: have to cross the river, but in the book it's
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 3: not like the ice is breaking apart, the wolves aren't there,
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 3: Lucy doesn't almost drown. So there's these like.
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 1: You can see it few changes. It's so like kind
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 1: of funny where it's like this movie is so clearly
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 1: in conversation with the very successful Lord at the Rings
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 1: movies that just came out totally. Yeah.
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 3: Absolutely, And then again, as we alluded to earlier, like
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 3: I'd imagine that one of the reasons that the battle
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 3: scene is so expanded upon for this movie is to
• 1:10:59
  Speaker 3: sort of like capitalize on the success of.
• 1:11:01
  Speaker 1: The Lord of the Rings movies, which, like the Lord
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 1: of the Rings movies, you know, kind of famously include
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 1: women in battle scenes in key moments include one woman. Look,
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 1: I'm not saying it's great. I actually do think in general,
• 1:11:16
  Speaker 1: Chronicles and Narnia does pretty squarely better on just including
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 1: women in the story for sure than Lord of the
• 1:11:25
  Speaker 1: Rings for sure.
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 3: But in this movie, not in the battle. Actually, as
• 1:11:31
  Speaker 3: we've been talking about, so again, there's the big battle
• 1:11:34
  Speaker 3: at the end. And as I'm like rewatching this movie,
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 3: you know, through the beachdal Lens for the first time,
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 3: and I've just reread the book, I'm like, Okay, maybe
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 3: this adaptation is going to give the girls more of
• 1:11:48
  Speaker 3: a chance to participate in the battle, especially after Santa
• 1:11:52
  Speaker 3: Claus gives them their gifts, because what happens here every
• 1:11:56
  Speaker 3: time we.
• 1:11:56
  Speaker 1: Say Santa Claus, I'm just like, right, And Santa Claus
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 1: is in.
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 3: The Santa Claus is in the movie as a character.
• 1:12:05
  Speaker 1: He's warmongering Santa Claus like Mary, He's a merry Christmas,
• 1:12:12
  Speaker 1: go kill a guy, like.
• 1:12:14
  Speaker 3: It's yeah wow. So so in the book, Santa Claus
• 1:12:20
  Speaker 3: gives Lucy the dagger and Susan the bow and arrow,
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 3: and then he says, hopefully you don't have to use
• 1:12:28
  Speaker 3: these battles are ugly when women fight.
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 1: And this is a C. S. Lewis to get into C. S.
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 1: Lewis's attitude towards women very briefly, like there's to say
• 1:12:42
  Speaker 1: he's better than talking on gender isn't really saying very much, right,
• 1:12:48
  Speaker 1: But there are you know, throughout the Narnia series there
• 1:12:50
  Speaker 1: are a series of women protagonists, not just I mean
• 1:12:54
  Speaker 1: Lucy Pevensey is a major protagonist throughout. There's also oh gosh,
• 1:13:02
  Speaker 1: let me see if I can find the names of
• 1:13:04
  Speaker 1: these characters. But there's like no fewer than I think
• 1:13:08
  Speaker 1: three to four of the books where there are young
• 1:13:12
  Speaker 1: women at the front of the story. However, C. S.
• 1:13:18
  Speaker 1: Lewis himself for a great chunk of his life and career,
• 1:13:24
  Speaker 1: while it seems like, you know, on a one to
• 1:13:26
  Speaker 1: one basis, he was like not like out and out
• 1:13:30
  Speaker 1: like fuck all women, but very of his time where
• 1:13:33
  Speaker 1: the big thing with him was he was a professor
• 1:13:35
  Speaker 1: at Oxford and then Cambridge because British and he was
• 1:13:41
  Speaker 1: very against women going to I think it was Cambridge,
• 1:13:45
  Speaker 1: which it seems like, again it's so hard because there's
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 1: a people who are very invested in caping for him,
• 1:13:51
  Speaker 1: So this might be an overly generous read. It seems
• 1:13:54
  Speaker 1: like as he got older, and particularly once he married
• 1:13:57
  Speaker 1: a really cool woman, his views on gender evolved towards
• 1:14:04
  Speaker 1: the end of his life. But I think like for
• 1:14:06
  Speaker 1: most of his career he you know, tolerated women but
• 1:14:11
  Speaker 1: wasn't an ally, let's say, but did I don't know, sure,
• 1:14:15
  Speaker 1: it's tricky anyways, that's all right. Yeah.
• 1:14:18
  Speaker 3: So in the book, Santa Claus is like, battles are
• 1:14:23
  Speaker 3: ugly when women fight. In the movie, this line gets
• 1:14:26
  Speaker 3: changed to Santa Claus simply saying battles are ugly affairs.
• 1:14:32
  Speaker 3: So this gendered language is removed from the movie adaptation.
• 1:14:37
  Speaker 3: So I'm wondering, okay, like if the movie is gonna
• 1:14:40
  Speaker 3: lean into the action and the fighting and we've sort
• 1:14:44
  Speaker 3: of removed this gendered line of Santa Claus is, will
• 1:14:48
  Speaker 3: the sisters be allowed to participate as much as the brothers,
• 1:14:52
  Speaker 3: especially because they've been given weapons. But the answer, as
• 1:14:56
  Speaker 3: we keep saying, is still no.
• 1:14:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:14:59
  Speaker 3: I mean I get why Lucy because she's so young,
• 1:15:03
  Speaker 3: I understand why she would not be put in the
• 1:15:05
  Speaker 3: middle of battle. But Susan seems to be pretty close
• 1:15:10
  Speaker 3: in age to Peter. She has a bow and arrow.
• 1:15:13
  Speaker 3: I think she uses it one time to kill Deep
• 1:15:16
  Speaker 3: Roy's character.
• 1:15:17
  Speaker 1: I think that that is Yeah, it felt very like
• 1:15:20
  Speaker 1: that old school, like that mcsweeze article we used to
• 1:15:23
  Speaker 1: quote a lot where it's like she gets to do
• 1:15:25
  Speaker 1: one thing. Yep, I because you just read the book.
• 1:15:28
  Speaker 1: I reread the I don't remember the specifics here does
• 1:15:32
  Speaker 1: she get to use the weapon because it felt almost
• 1:15:36
  Speaker 1: like like, let's have her train with the Like we
• 1:15:40
  Speaker 1: see her training with the weapon. She very intentionally is like,
• 1:15:43
  Speaker 1: I have to go practice, yes, so that she can
• 1:15:46
  Speaker 1: use it once at the end of the movie. But
• 1:15:48
  Speaker 1: I was like kind of frustrated. I think for the
• 1:15:50
  Speaker 1: same reason of like, the movie is setting it up
• 1:15:54
  Speaker 1: so that they're.
• 1:15:54
  Speaker 3: Involved, right, because also Lucy like flings her dagger at
• 1:15:59
  Speaker 3: the target like during the targer practice thing, and then
• 1:16:02
  Speaker 3: hits a bull's eye, And first of all, I'm like,
• 1:16:04
  Speaker 3: I mean, maybe she's a child protist gee at the
• 1:16:07
  Speaker 3: dagger throwing, but like she's also seven years old, So
• 1:16:11
  Speaker 3: are we sure about that?
• 1:16:12
  Speaker 1: I'm well, I'm willing to suspend my displate that Diva
• 1:16:15
  Speaker 1: can do anything to me.
• 1:16:16
  Speaker 3: Well, okay, sure, but yeah, it is. It is setting
• 1:16:19
  Speaker 3: it up because again, they're training, they're practicing with their weapons.
• 1:16:23
  Speaker 3: It seems like they're gonna participate, but pretty much not. Yeah,
• 1:16:27
  Speaker 3: the moment when Susan does use her bow and arrow
• 1:16:30
  Speaker 3: to kill the deep Roy character, it is to save Edmund,
• 1:16:36
  Speaker 3: So we do see you know, a girl saving a boy.
• 1:16:41
  Speaker 3: So that's something.
• 1:16:43
  Speaker 1: Again, it's it's like more than you might expect, but
• 1:16:48
  Speaker 1: still not a lot, is sort of what it came
• 1:16:51
  Speaker 1: down to.
• 1:16:53
  Speaker 3: And then also so it does take Edmund a while
• 1:16:56
  Speaker 3: to join in the battle. He's sort of like standing
• 1:17:00
  Speaker 3: way off in the back in the distance with the
• 1:17:04
  Speaker 3: beavers and with what appears to be women's centaurs.
• 1:17:10
  Speaker 1: The women's centaurs. I noticed this.
• 1:17:15
  Speaker 3: Okay, so the man's centaurs they're fighting in the battle
• 1:17:18
  Speaker 3: on the front lines. The women's centaurs apparently are not
• 1:17:22
  Speaker 3: allowed to fight on the front lines. Like we're basically
• 1:17:28
  Speaker 3: not doing anything. One of them fires a bow and arrow,
• 1:17:32
  Speaker 3: the arrow turns into a bird that turns into fire,
• 1:17:37
  Speaker 3: and then like creates that sort of like fire blockade thing.
• 1:17:40
  Speaker 1: It's frustrating. I feel like this is very emblematic of
• 1:17:45
  Speaker 1: the two thousands of Like clearly these productions are aware
• 1:17:50
  Speaker 1: enough of feminism women in general that they're willing to
• 1:17:55
  Speaker 1: add these sort of like bread crummy kind of of things.
• 1:18:01
  Speaker 1: Susan gets to do something once a woman centaur does
• 1:18:04
  Speaker 1: one thing, and it's like, okay, so you know what
• 1:18:06
  Speaker 1: you're doing, Like obviously we know that but it's just
• 1:18:10
  Speaker 1: frustrating to see movies of this era, I mean and
• 1:18:13
  Speaker 1: movies and this era. I mean, this continues for years
• 1:18:17
  Speaker 1: and years and years, like this continues throughout the like
• 1:18:19
  Speaker 1: Avengers franchise. But it's just it's so irritating to see.
• 1:18:24
  Speaker 1: I didn't even pick up on the woman's centaur moment,
• 1:18:28
  Speaker 1: which is like you're like sure, but it's like it's
• 1:18:31
  Speaker 1: I don't know. Sometimes I'm like, it's almost worse than nothing.
• 1:18:33
  Speaker 3: The women centaurs are like relegated to the to being
• 1:18:37
  Speaker 3: way in the back with a literal child, and the
• 1:18:41
  Speaker 3: beavers like basically the people who can't fight for shit.
• 1:18:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but I mean yeah, I was like, do I
• 1:18:48
  Speaker 1: want like Lucy, you know, out there with a with
• 1:18:51
  Speaker 1: a glock? No? No, so, but yeah, Susan, I mean Susan.
• 1:18:55
  Speaker 1: It just again they give you the little bread crummy moment,
• 1:18:59
  Speaker 1: but you don't really get the full you know, what
• 1:19:02
  Speaker 1: our character deserves and what it seems like the movie
• 1:19:04
  Speaker 1: is building up to, and so what I've seen a
• 1:19:07
  Speaker 1: lot in a lot of the Christian reads of this
• 1:19:09
  Speaker 1: movie that it is thought to be by some a
• 1:19:14
  Speaker 1: showing of deference and respect to the girls that they
• 1:19:20
  Speaker 1: are the ones that Aslan trusts to witness, like he
• 1:19:24
  Speaker 1: chooses them to witness this and to witness his resurrection
• 1:19:29
  Speaker 1: versus the boys. It almost feels like whatever if we're
• 1:19:33
  Speaker 1: going with the allegorical read that C. S. Lewis kind
• 1:19:35
  Speaker 1: of waffles on over the years that he's favoring Mary
• 1:19:39
  Speaker 1: Magdalen over the Disciples. Again, I'm like, not whatever, that's
• 1:19:46
  Speaker 1: just there's that. But I do think like if we're
• 1:19:49
  Speaker 1: reworking like this movie, like you're saying, takes a lot
• 1:19:52
  Speaker 1: of liberties, expands on a lot of stuff, just jush
• 1:19:55
  Speaker 1: the timeline and have them be able to be present
• 1:19:57
  Speaker 1: at the battle Aslan's whatever behind them whatever. That's like,
• 1:20:00
  Speaker 1: it's it's Narnia.
• 1:20:02
  Speaker 3: Just make it up right, Like Aslan shows up with
• 1:20:05
  Speaker 3: the sisters and the rest of the army and then
• 1:20:09
  Speaker 3: and then that's when the battle maybe really kicks off,
• 1:20:11
  Speaker 3: Like right, not that hard to do.
• 1:20:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but I'm going to talk a little bit more
• 1:20:17
  Speaker 1: about Susan if it's okay, Yeah, please, So canonically, there's
• 1:20:21
  Speaker 1: a whole thing around Susan that a later generation of
• 1:20:25
  Speaker 1: fantasy writers, they all have something to say about Susan.
• 1:20:30
  Speaker 1: Pevensey and two of them are now deeply disgraced because
• 1:20:34
  Speaker 1: it's Neil Gayman and JK. Rowling. But Susan Pevensey. So
• 1:20:38
  Speaker 1: she is in let me be completely sure, she is
• 1:20:45
  Speaker 1: in The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe, and then
• 1:20:47
  Speaker 1: she's in little bits of the other books. She's in
• 1:20:53
  Speaker 1: all of Prince Caspian. She is basically written out of
• 1:20:57
  Speaker 1: Voyage of the Dawn Treader. She has little parts in
• 1:21:00
  Speaker 1: The Horse and His Boy. But so in the Last Battle,
• 1:21:04
  Speaker 1: one of the Narnian books, we are given a reason
• 1:21:08
  Speaker 1: why Susan is no longer present. So Narnia, I don't
• 1:21:11
  Speaker 1: know it works. I think it's easiest to explain in
• 1:21:15
  Speaker 1: like polar express logic, where you like whatever, the kid
• 1:21:19
  Speaker 1: can hear the bell if they believe in Santa. If
• 1:21:21
  Speaker 1: they don't believe, they can't. So the way that Narnia
• 1:21:24
  Speaker 1: appears to work is that kids go to Narnia to
• 1:21:29
  Speaker 1: learn that Jesus is awesome, and then after a while
• 1:21:34
  Speaker 1: you're no longer able to access Narnia. I wasn't able
• 1:21:38
  Speaker 1: to find like a consistent reason why this is. C. S.
• 1:21:41
  Speaker 1: Lewis explains it, and because he had all these fan letters,
• 1:21:44
  Speaker 1: he would write He explains it at some points as like,
• 1:21:47
  Speaker 1: when you understand the importance of Aslan in Narnia, then
• 1:21:51
  Speaker 1: you can understand the importance of Jesus in the regular world,
• 1:21:54
  Speaker 1: and you don't need to go to Narnia anymore. But
• 1:21:57
  Speaker 1: the way he talks about Susan is this is how
• 1:22:02
  Speaker 1: Susan is talked about in the Last Battle. She's being
• 1:22:05
  Speaker 1: talked about by another young woman, Jill Poll. So they
• 1:22:10
  Speaker 1: frame it as if Susan has had a spiritual downfall
• 1:22:14
  Speaker 1: in a way a lot of people read as misogynists,
• 1:22:16
  Speaker 1: and I agree, okay, quote Oh Susan, said Jill. She's
• 1:22:20
  Speaker 1: interested in nothing nowadays except nylons and lipsticks and invitations.
• 1:22:25
  Speaker 1: She always was a jolly sight too, keen on being
• 1:22:27
  Speaker 1: grown up. Grown up indeed, said the lady Polly, I
• 1:22:30
  Speaker 1: wish she would grow up. She wasted all her school
• 1:22:32
  Speaker 1: time wanting to be the age she is now, and
• 1:22:34
  Speaker 1: now she'll waste all the rest of her life trying
• 1:22:36
  Speaker 1: to stay that age. Her whole idea is to race
• 1:22:38
  Speaker 1: onto the silliest time of one's life as quick as
• 1:22:40
  Speaker 1: she can, and then stop there as long as she can.
• 1:22:43
  Speaker 1: So wow, I know, like basically they're like, oh, she
• 1:22:47
  Speaker 1: came of age and now she's into silly woman stuff, right.
• 1:22:52
  Speaker 1: And the argument against that is that like, oh, well,
• 1:22:55
  Speaker 1: he's just writing about kids growing up and becoming interested
• 1:22:58
  Speaker 1: in adult things. But I think I think that what
• 1:23:00
  Speaker 1: chafes with that is Peter eventually can't go to in Narnia either,
• 1:23:04
  Speaker 1: and it's not framed that way even remotely. Edmund can
• 1:23:07
  Speaker 1: eventually not go to Narnia, like all of the kids
• 1:23:09
  Speaker 1: age out of Narnia at some point, which doesn't really
• 1:23:13
  Speaker 1: make sense because like you're saying their maturity levels like
• 1:23:15
  Speaker 1: all over the place, right, But anyways, it's been like
• 1:23:20
  Speaker 1: something that's been sort of talked about for seventy seventy
• 1:23:23
  Speaker 1: five years now about like it's generally thought that Susan
• 1:23:26
  Speaker 1: is done dirty in the books in general, because she's
• 1:23:28
  Speaker 1: underwritten to begin with, and then he just writes her
• 1:23:32
  Speaker 1: out over time, being like oh she's like too silly,
• 1:23:35
  Speaker 1: she likes lipstick too much, so she's actually not welcome
• 1:23:39
  Speaker 1: in Christ's kingdom anymore. You're just like, oh, I don't
• 1:23:44
  Speaker 1: love it.
• 1:23:44
  Speaker 3: I mean the way that like teen girls are the
• 1:23:47
  Speaker 3: recipients of so much vitriol for what they like, what
• 1:23:51
  Speaker 3: they're interested in speaking very generally here. But and it's
• 1:23:56
  Speaker 3: just like, well, that's just because the critics are old men,
• 1:24:01
  Speaker 3: are C.
• 1:24:02
  Speaker 1: S Lewis? Okay, So I have a quote from C.
• 1:24:04
  Speaker 1: S Lewis that kind of confirms this. Misogynists raid of it?
• 1:24:08
  Speaker 1: He says, Okay, so this is from a letter he
• 1:24:11
  Speaker 1: wrote to a child because there were kids write again,
• 1:24:15
  Speaker 1: being like, where's Susan? I miss Susan? And he says, quote,
• 1:24:20
  Speaker 1: the books don't tell us what happened to Susan. She
• 1:24:22
  Speaker 1: is left alive in this world at the end, having
• 1:24:24
  Speaker 1: by then turned into a rather silly, conceited young woman.
• 1:24:27
  Speaker 1: But there's plenty of time for her to mend, and
• 1:24:29
  Speaker 1: perhaps she will get to Aslan's country in the end
• 1:24:32
  Speaker 1: in her own way. So you're just like, you know,
• 1:24:36
  Speaker 1: his explanations really do sort of bear out the worst
• 1:24:39
  Speaker 1: faith reading of that choice, and it sucks. Justice for Susan,
• 1:24:47
  Speaker 1: Justice for goddamn Susan. Yeah, Lucy, it doesn't seem like,
• 1:24:51
  Speaker 1: you know, she is sort of dealt quite as bad
• 1:24:55
  Speaker 1: a hand as Susan. But it's also I think just
• 1:24:56
  Speaker 1: because she's younger, and clearly C. S Lewis has a
• 1:24:59
  Speaker 1: bone to pick with like young women coming of age.
• 1:25:03
  Speaker 3: I don't know, Well, he never saw it happen because
• 1:25:05
  Speaker 3: he went off to war and then he met true
• 1:25:08
  Speaker 3: he actually never met Patty's mother, who was forty seven
• 1:25:11
  Speaker 3: in her mid forties.
• 1:25:13
  Speaker 1: That is so true. I like, this is so much
• 1:25:16
  Speaker 1: of C. S. Lewis's stuff. You're just like can be
• 1:25:19
  Speaker 1: kind of reduced to like this. You know, take everything
• 1:25:23
  Speaker 1: he says with a grown of salt because he had
• 1:25:25
  Speaker 1: like absurd mommy issues, which brings me to the Witch.
• 1:25:30
  Speaker 1: Let's talk about the Witch. Yes, please, mommy.
• 1:25:33
  Speaker 3: I like her, I like, I mean, I don't like
• 1:25:34
  Speaker 3: her politics, I don't like her fascism, but I like
• 1:25:38
  Speaker 3: when she's played by Tilda Swinton. She's also a pretty
• 1:25:43
  Speaker 3: fun character in the BBC adaptation, Oh yeah, tell me,
• 1:25:47
  Speaker 3: I didn't write down the actor who plays her. The
• 1:25:51
  Speaker 3: costume is pretty wild and she's giving quite a performance.
• 1:25:56
  Speaker 3: It is like full camp. She's screaming all the time.
• 1:26:00
  Speaker 3: She's so mean and I love it.
• 1:26:04
  Speaker 1: I love it. I mean till this written, she's perfect
• 1:26:07
  Speaker 1: in this movie. Yeah, she's so good. She's so scary.
• 1:26:10
  Speaker 1: I love a good female villain. I know that that
• 1:26:13
  Speaker 1: comes with a lot of baggage. And I think it's
• 1:26:17
  Speaker 1: worth pointing out that, you know, in a world where
• 1:26:22
  Speaker 1: women characters are pretty sparse, all of the sympathetic characters
• 1:26:27
  Speaker 1: we meet in this world, with the exception of Missus Beaver,
• 1:26:30
  Speaker 1: are men. Jesus Aslan is a man. Mister Tumnus is
• 1:26:34
  Speaker 1: a man. Mister. You know, all of most the actively
• 1:26:37
  Speaker 1: kind characters we meet in this world are pretty much
• 1:26:39
  Speaker 1: all men. And the woman we know the best is Satan,
• 1:26:45
  Speaker 1: but she is also so Cundy, and like, it's not
• 1:26:51
  Speaker 1: like I was, like, I wish this character was played
• 1:26:53
  Speaker 1: by a man, because I don't. I guess what would
• 1:26:55
  Speaker 1: have been cool is to have, like like so many time,
• 1:27:00
  Speaker 1: a second woman who was allowed to do something other
• 1:27:03
  Speaker 1: than cook or like respond to men.
• 1:27:06
  Speaker 3: Especially because so many members of Aslan's army are mythological
• 1:27:15
  Speaker 3: creatures and in this world maybe patriarchy doesn't exist. Why
• 1:27:20
  Speaker 3: not have the woman centaurs? Like there's like a general
• 1:27:26
  Speaker 3: it seems of Aslan's army who is a man centaur.
• 1:27:32
  Speaker 3: Why not have that be a woman centaur? Why not
• 1:27:35
  Speaker 3: be But like all of the soldiers in the army
• 1:27:39
  Speaker 3: seem to be like male coded, which again bonds and
• 1:27:42
  Speaker 3: centaurs and stuff.
• 1:27:43
  Speaker 1: Does seem like something I mean, I think particularly in
• 1:27:46
  Speaker 1: The Horse and His Boy, not the book you would
• 1:27:50
  Speaker 1: expect to have some light feminist themes, but there is
• 1:27:56
  Speaker 1: a character named Erevus in that book who flee, who
• 1:28:01
  Speaker 1: runs away from home to escape an arranged marriage, then
• 1:28:05
  Speaker 1: sort of becomes this warrior, which is kind of cool,
• 1:28:09
  Speaker 1: except the fact that the culture she's fleeing is sort
• 1:28:13
  Speaker 1: of a veiled version of Islam, So it is c.
• 1:28:17
  Speaker 1: S lewis being islamophobic, Yeah, Islamophobic while trying to be feminist.
• 1:28:23
  Speaker 1: So it's just like it's a mess. It's all a mess.
• 1:28:27
  Speaker 1: I'm sure that there are Narnia books where there are
• 1:28:30
  Speaker 1: more women in this world, at least more than appear
• 1:28:33
  Speaker 1: to be in Lord of the Rings world. But regardless,
• 1:28:37
  Speaker 1: it's like, this is the iconic one and the woman
• 1:28:39
  Speaker 1: we know best is Satan and you know, objectively not ideal,
• 1:28:45
  Speaker 1: but I also am like, she's so good, She's so.
• 1:28:49
  Speaker 3: Good, she's great, very reclaimable character, I think, And yes,
• 1:28:54
  Speaker 3: as far as adult women go. And then the two sisters,
• 1:28:58
  Speaker 3: they're children, but they are very active participants in this story,
• 1:29:01
  Speaker 3: more so Lucy than Susan, as we've discussed. But I
• 1:29:05
  Speaker 3: do appreciate that there's a component of this story which
• 1:29:08
  Speaker 3: is Lucy dealing with her siblings not believing her about Narnia.
• 1:29:16
  Speaker 3: And you can presume it's because Lucy is both a
• 1:29:20
  Speaker 3: girl and the youngest, because there's a long history of
• 1:29:25
  Speaker 3: people not believing women and girls and people not believing
• 1:29:31
  Speaker 3: children when they disclose something or have to like say
• 1:29:37
  Speaker 3: like this thing happened to me, absolutely, because you can
• 1:29:40
  Speaker 3: imagine that if Peter was the first person to discover Narnia,
• 1:29:44
  Speaker 3: he'd be like, hey, younger siblings, come with me on
• 1:29:49
  Speaker 3: an adventure. They'd be like, awesome, sounds great and definitely
• 1:29:52
  Speaker 3: sounds real. Right because it's Lucy, she's a little girl,
• 1:29:57
  Speaker 3: They're like, pishposh, there's no way that's true. And then
• 1:30:01
  Speaker 3: to the professor's defense, he is like, you maybe should
• 1:30:06
  Speaker 3: believe your sister. Let's logic through this.
• 1:30:09
  Speaker 1: Let's take what she's saying seriously. Like, take what she's
• 1:30:11
  Speaker 1: saying seriously. I also like the scene. It's a very
• 1:30:14
  Speaker 1: short scene, but I liked the scene between Lucy and
• 1:30:18
  Speaker 1: Susan about growing up. I thought that that was very sweet.
• 1:30:22
  Speaker 1: It reminded me of like a lot of my cousins
• 1:30:24
  Speaker 1: where it's right before they like spend time with Aslin
• 1:30:28
  Speaker 1: and then Aslin dies, all very back to back to back,
• 1:30:31
  Speaker 1: but there's a brief Bechdel cast passing exchange between the
• 1:30:35
  Speaker 1: two of them that basically boils down to like Susan
• 1:30:40
  Speaker 1: being like, oh, I'm sorry, like we don't hang out
• 1:30:42
  Speaker 1: as much and because but it's more like a reference
• 1:30:44
  Speaker 1: to their difference in age and maturity, and Lucy kind
• 1:30:48
  Speaker 1: of pokes at Susan and is like, well, it's because
• 1:30:50
  Speaker 1: you're so boring now in the way that your you know,
• 1:30:52
  Speaker 1: elder siblings seem boring when they're interested in other things
• 1:30:56
  Speaker 1: in you. And I just thought it was a very
• 1:30:58
  Speaker 1: sweet moment. And again it is not much, but I
• 1:31:04
  Speaker 1: did appreciate that, you know, like in general, you do
• 1:31:07
  Speaker 1: get moments between sibling pairs in a way that I
• 1:31:11
  Speaker 1: think shows more thought than you would maybe expect, like
• 1:31:15
  Speaker 1: and I liked having that that the movie takes a
• 1:31:18
  Speaker 1: moment to be like, what is Lucy's relationship with her
• 1:31:22
  Speaker 1: older sister in the same way that and I think,
• 1:31:24
  Speaker 1: especially with Lucy, you have a very clear idea of
• 1:31:27
  Speaker 1: like what the distinct relationships are. I think between kind
• 1:31:31
  Speaker 1: of all the siblings, because Susan and Peter have the
• 1:31:34
  Speaker 1: sort of like eldest thing going where they both think
• 1:31:38
  Speaker 1: they're hot shit and think their sibling sucks, which feels
• 1:31:42
  Speaker 1: you know that scans right. Lucy and Edmund have their
• 1:31:46
  Speaker 1: like Edmund sucks. Everyone kind of hates Edmund. That's everyone's
• 1:31:49
  Speaker 1: relationship to Edmund is like we you know our parents.
• 1:31:53
  Speaker 1: You know, something happened at the baby factory.
• 1:31:56
  Speaker 3: Well, there's a there's a reference in the book that's
• 1:31:58
  Speaker 3: not in the movie toward the very end of the
• 1:32:02
  Speaker 3: book that and again it's been like it's been too
• 1:32:07
  Speaker 3: many days have passed since I've read it, so basically
• 1:32:09
  Speaker 3: eighty four years. It's seeping out of my memory. But
• 1:32:12
  Speaker 3: the idea is that apparently something happened at school with Edmund.
• 1:32:18
  Speaker 3: We're not sure if maybe he was the victim of
• 1:32:21
  Speaker 3: bullying or something like that, but basically there was some
• 1:32:24
  Speaker 3: experience that he had at school that kind of that
• 1:32:27
  Speaker 3: was the catalyst for him to behave the way that
• 1:32:31
  Speaker 3: we see him behaving. Oh interesting, Okay throughout the like
• 1:32:35
  Speaker 3: first like two thirds of the story.
• 1:32:39
  Speaker 1: Okay, well, that's actually like helpful to just have it
• 1:32:42
  Speaker 1: even contextualize a little bit.
• 1:32:45
  Speaker 3: It's literally like one sentence, but yeah, there is that
• 1:32:48
  Speaker 3: little bit of context. The movie doesn't include that, which
• 1:32:52
  Speaker 3: I understand why, Like it might have been like clunky
• 1:32:54
  Speaker 3: to include, right, But we just don't really know why,
• 1:32:58
  Speaker 3: at least according to the movie, why Edmund is the
• 1:33:01
  Speaker 3: way he is.
• 1:33:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, he's just like sometimes kids are little shits.
• 1:33:06
  Speaker 1: But yeah, I mean I think again, like I did
• 1:33:09
  Speaker 1: appreciate that whatever, all of the sibling pairings have a
• 1:33:14
  Speaker 1: distinct dynamic more or less, but unfortunately, I think it
• 1:33:18
  Speaker 1: is Susan who kind of gets the I always thought
• 1:33:21
  Speaker 1: of like Susan and Peter as like they were boring
• 1:33:24
  Speaker 1: to me. But Susan you get the least out of
• 1:33:26
  Speaker 1: out of them. Yeah.
• 1:33:30
  Speaker 3: The nineteen eighty eight BBC mini series, I've already said
• 1:33:33
  Speaker 3: most of what I wanted to say about it, but
• 1:33:35
  Speaker 3: I was, like, I did spend three hours of my
• 1:33:38
  Speaker 3: one human life watching it, so the last things I'll
• 1:33:43
  Speaker 3: say about it. The episodes are directed by a woman, Okay,
• 1:33:49
  Speaker 3: Marilyn Fox, a TV producer, writer and director who mostly
• 1:33:55
  Speaker 3: worked on BBC programming specific to like like Chill's programming
• 1:34:01
  Speaker 3: from the nineteen sixties to the nineties, so she had
• 1:34:06
  Speaker 3: a pretty prolific career. And yeah, she directed all the
• 1:34:10
  Speaker 3: episodes of this mini series. Again, lots of goofy effects
• 1:34:15
  Speaker 3: and costumes. There's also a part where, so the part
• 1:34:19
  Speaker 3: of the story where Edmund has left the Beaver House
• 1:34:23
  Speaker 3: and is making his way to the Witch's palace. In
• 1:34:27
  Speaker 3: the book, he's having an inner monologue, which is tricky
• 1:34:31
  Speaker 3: to put on screen. And sure, you know, some writers
• 1:34:36
  Speaker 3: might have had Edmund just kind of talking to himself.
• 1:34:39
  Speaker 3: Some maybe would have included his inner monologue as voiceovers.
• 1:34:45
  Speaker 3: The two thousand and five movie kind of doesn't really
• 1:34:48
  Speaker 3: do anything. It just shows him walking without any sort
• 1:34:51
  Speaker 3: of indication that he's having thoughts or feelings. The nineteen
• 1:34:56
  Speaker 3: eighty eight adaptation chooses to do the worst option of
• 1:35:01
  Speaker 3: them all, which is to have Edmund talk to an
• 1:35:06
  Speaker 3: imaginary hologram of himself.
• 1:35:09
  Speaker 1: Okay, that's awesome.
• 1:35:12
  Speaker 3: It's visually really bizarre and hilarious. This happens multiple times,
• 1:35:17
  Speaker 3: and so that's that. Aslan is an animatronic who talks
• 1:35:24
  Speaker 3: a lot, but his lips don't move. His head is
• 1:35:27
  Speaker 3: just sort of like nodding up and down.
• 1:35:31
  Speaker 1: I kind of watch this.
• 1:35:32
  Speaker 3: Also he can fly the part where he is resurrected
• 1:35:37
  Speaker 3: and then he takes Susan and Lucy to the Witch's castle.
• 1:35:39
  Speaker 3: He flies them there in the BBC version, So pretty
• 1:35:45
  Speaker 3: pretty cool stuff.
• 1:35:46
  Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, yeah, I can't wait to watch it.
• 1:35:51
  Speaker 1: This sounds like the perfect I have a fever thing
• 1:35:53
  Speaker 1: to watch. Absolutely amazing. Yeah, I guess the last thing
• 1:35:57
  Speaker 1: there are four creditive writers on this movie is a woman,
• 1:36:00
  Speaker 1: so there you go, and Peacock and Peacock cool name.
• 1:36:06
  Speaker 1: She's got some other credits. But other than that, we
• 1:36:09
  Speaker 1: are really dealing with a pretty heavily male production team.
• 1:36:13
  Speaker 1: All things considered, I think what this boils down to
• 1:36:16
  Speaker 1: for me is it's like it is ultimately soft Christian
• 1:36:19
  Speaker 1: prop Baganda. But but I will say that it is
• 1:36:25
  Speaker 1: ignorable to me anyways. Like I don't know, it's not
• 1:36:29
  Speaker 1: so aggressive that you can't enjoy it. I do feel like,
• 1:36:33
  Speaker 1: I mean, Jesus Lion, it's pretty unignorable. But I do
• 1:36:38
  Speaker 1: feel like this is a take it or leave it
• 1:36:40
  Speaker 1: kind of movie, and I'm leaving it, but you know, respectfully, Sure,
• 1:36:45
  Speaker 1: I don't know. I still I think probably some of
• 1:36:48
  Speaker 1: it's nostalgia, but I still have a lot of affection
• 1:36:51
  Speaker 1: for this movie, and it is worth saying extremely white,
• 1:36:56
  Speaker 1: so so absurdly white.
• 1:36:59
  Speaker 3: I think the BBC version might be better about being
• 1:37:03
  Speaker 3: more inclusive in its casting choices. It's all like background
• 1:37:08
  Speaker 3: characters and like fonds and stuff. But like, yeah, between
• 1:37:14
  Speaker 3: the two thousand and five movie and the BBC mini series,
• 1:37:17
  Speaker 3: neither adaptation has any meaningful diversity in the cast.
• 1:37:22
  Speaker 1: And that I'm hopeful, and I guess looking forward to
• 1:37:26
  Speaker 1: the Greta Gerwig interpretation, I hope it is a more
• 1:37:29
  Speaker 1: inclusive interpretation. And it seems like, you know, having a
• 1:37:33
  Speaker 1: woman at the Helm of Narnia. Hopefully we get coherent Susan.
• 1:37:39
  Speaker 1: Here's to maybe a coherent Susan next year.
• 1:37:41
  Speaker 3: Yes, indeed, i'd imagine that Greta Gerwig's adaptation she's doing
• 1:37:47
  Speaker 3: Is she doing another line the Witch and the wardrobe?
• 1:37:49
  Speaker 3: Is she?
• 1:37:49
  Speaker 1: What does she?
• 1:37:50
  Speaker 3: This is like I don't know enough about this.
• 1:37:53
  Speaker 1: I don't know. I just know it's been in production
• 1:37:55
  Speaker 1: forever and the first one is coming out in theaters
• 1:37:57
  Speaker 1: next year. Okay, I believe she's doing it in chronological order,
• 1:38:01
  Speaker 1: not publishing order though, so I think she's not starting
• 1:38:05
  Speaker 1: with Lion Witch in the wardrobe. Okay, but we'll see.
• 1:38:08
  Speaker 1: I mean, we'll see, we'll see next year. I'm like,
• 1:38:10
  Speaker 1: I will, I'll see anything she releases, Like I'm not
• 1:38:15
  Speaker 1: excited for her adaptation of this the way that I
• 1:38:17
  Speaker 1: was excited to see her adaptation of Little Women Her Barbie,
• 1:38:20
  Speaker 1: but you know, hopefully it's amazing. We'll see, we will see.
• 1:38:25
  Speaker 1: It passes the Bechdel test. It definitely does, not extensively.
• 1:38:28
  Speaker 1: But even that scene we were just talking about with
• 1:38:32
  Speaker 1: Susan and Lucy, that entire scene where they're talking about
• 1:38:34
  Speaker 1: their relationship and their relationship to growing up, I feel
• 1:38:37
  Speaker 1: like it is. Actually it is very plot relevant and
• 1:38:40
  Speaker 1: a very sweet moment. And I'm sure that there is
• 1:38:42
  Speaker 1: a pass with one of the two and the white
• 1:38:45
  Speaker 1: Witch and but their mother at the beginning. There's a
• 1:38:49
  Speaker 1: few passes as well. So not extensive, but it does pass.
• 1:38:57
  Speaker 1: I'm giving it to them. But what about the most
• 1:38:59
  Speaker 1: important metric in this world?
• 1:39:01
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that would be, of course, the Bechdel cast nipple scale,
• 1:39:05
  Speaker 3: where we rate the movie on a scale of zero
• 1:39:08
  Speaker 3: to five nipples based on examining the movie through an
• 1:39:12
  Speaker 3: intersectional feminist lens.
• 1:39:13
  Speaker 1: And I will give this movie like I think like.
• 1:39:19
  Speaker 3: One and a half that feels free. Yeah, maybe two
• 1:39:24
  Speaker 3: again i'm feeling in the generous holiday spirit, but probably yeah,
• 1:39:29
  Speaker 3: probably only one and a half, mostly because this movie
• 1:39:32
  Speaker 3: had the opportunity. And again, if we're gonna like meet
• 1:39:36
  Speaker 3: the movie where it is, which we don't have to do,
• 1:39:39
  Speaker 3: but let's for argument's sake, say, Okay, this is a
• 1:39:42
  Speaker 3: movie that's coming out in two thousand and five. It's
• 1:39:44
  Speaker 3: coming out after the success of the Lord of the
• 1:39:48
  Speaker 3: Rings movies, which had lots of battle things, So we're
• 1:39:52
  Speaker 3: gonna expand the battle sequence of the Narnia movie, and
• 1:39:56
  Speaker 3: therefore there are opportunities to take liberties with how inclusive
• 1:40:01
  Speaker 3: the story is with especially the older the elder sister
• 1:40:06
  Speaker 3: Susan with her bow and arrow, and can she do
• 1:40:10
  Speaker 3: some stuff? If this is going to be like a
• 1:40:13
  Speaker 3: baddly actiony movie.
• 1:40:15
  Speaker 1: And it feels like we're stuck in like Princess Leah Land,
• 1:40:18
  Speaker 1: where it's like she can do one stuff and then
• 1:40:20
  Speaker 1: she and then and then we're cutting her off.
• 1:40:22
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, even Princess Leah does more stuff than
• 1:40:25
  Speaker 3: Susan gets to do in this one movie at least.
• 1:40:27
  Speaker 3: But so, yeah, I there were opportunities that were squandered.
• 1:40:34
  Speaker 3: But again, if we are going to compare this to
• 1:40:37
  Speaker 3: the Lord of the Rings trilogy, which basically which has
• 1:40:44
  Speaker 3: like fewer women in far fewer narratively significant roles, and
• 1:40:49
  Speaker 3: in the movie adaptation of those, there were like female
• 1:40:53
  Speaker 3: characters who were drawn out of the like appendices and
• 1:40:58
  Speaker 3: like other material that J. R. Tolkien had written that
• 1:41:02
  Speaker 3: weren't even in like the source material of like the
• 1:41:05
  Speaker 3: Lord of the Rings books, Like I think Arwin it
• 1:41:08
  Speaker 3: was that barely in the books things were that dire,
• 1:41:11
  Speaker 3: like it.
• 1:41:11
  Speaker 1: Was, it was that right.
• 1:41:14
  Speaker 3: So this movie, in this story in general, is doing
• 1:41:17
  Speaker 3: better than that. The bar is low. And you know,
• 1:41:21
  Speaker 3: as we've talked about in past episodes, fantasy, at least
• 1:41:26
  Speaker 3: the fantasy that gets adapted to film in Hollywood is
• 1:41:33
  Speaker 3: quite male driven, very white, very like Anglo Saxon.
• 1:41:40
  Speaker 1: Which vibes Yeah, which is improved, but not by as
• 1:41:44
  Speaker 1: much as you would hope over time.
• 1:41:46
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 1:41:47
  Speaker 1: Also, I'm just so sick of big tent pole fantasy movies.
• 1:41:50
  Speaker 1: I'm like, how about we make them about no One?
• 1:41:52
  Speaker 1: I'm so bored. But yeah, that said, yeah, i think
• 1:41:57
  Speaker 1: I'm going to meet you at two. Taking into considerations.
• 1:42:03
  Speaker 1: It's time because I think for a fantasy series, it's
• 1:42:07
  Speaker 1: doing better than most other fantasy series of its time.
• 1:42:11
  Speaker 1: So I'll give it a little edge for that reason.
• 1:42:15
  Speaker 1: And I just really love Lucy and the White Witch.
• 1:42:21
  Speaker 1: Even though there are fewer women characters in this movie
• 1:42:24
  Speaker 1: than male characters, I do think that the women in
• 1:42:27
  Speaker 1: general are the more memorable and more iconic. And I agree.
• 1:42:32
  Speaker 3: So I'm sort of like Asla, I'm bored the White Witch.
• 1:42:36
  Speaker 3: I'm engaged the White Witch.
• 1:42:38
  Speaker 1: I Yeah, she's She's the one that stands the test
• 1:42:41
  Speaker 1: of time, you know. And that's coming from someone who
• 1:42:45
  Speaker 1: used to move Aslan before bed right right. The White
• 1:42:49
  Speaker 1: Witch takes it regardless. So I'm gonna give it to nipples.
• 1:42:53
  Speaker 1: Who are you giving your nipples to?
• 1:42:55
  Speaker 3: I'll give it to as well. Merry Christmas everyone, and
• 1:43:00
  Speaker 3: I'll give it to one to Tilda Swinton and one
• 1:43:05
  Speaker 3: to Andrew Adamson's Shrek and Shrek two.
• 1:43:09
  Speaker 1: I was gonna say an argument to bump it down
• 1:43:11
  Speaker 1: to one and a half is that we know Andrew
• 1:43:14
  Speaker 1: Adamson can make a feminist masterpiece. He just made Shrek two,
• 1:43:17
  Speaker 1: so there is that You're like, we know the bar
• 1:43:21
  Speaker 1: for Andrew Adamson feminist masterpiece is relatively high, but I'll
• 1:43:25
  Speaker 1: stick with two. I'm gonna give one to Lucy. I'm
• 1:43:27
  Speaker 1: gonna give one to Warlord Santa.
• 1:43:30
  Speaker 3: Oh oh yeah, wow.
• 1:43:33
  Speaker 1: Never forgets so funny that Santa sin is. Apparently j R. R.
• 1:43:36
  Speaker 1: Tolkien was also like your joke, you're a flop? Why
• 1:43:38
  Speaker 1: is Santa in your book? Which is very funny?
• 1:43:42
  Speaker 3: All right, incredible.
• 1:43:44
  Speaker 1: Well, there you go, listeners, nine years after you started
• 1:43:47
  Speaker 1: asking for it, there's our Chronicles of Nardia episode. We
• 1:43:50
  Speaker 1: hope you enjoyed it, and you can find us in
• 1:43:54
  Speaker 1: all the normal places. You can find us mostly on Instagram,
• 1:43:57
  Speaker 1: on social media, and you can find us, as we
• 1:44:00
  Speaker 1: said at the beginning of the episode, on the Patreon
• 1:44:03
  Speaker 1: aka Matreon, which is how we were able to figure
• 1:44:05
  Speaker 1: out how badly everyone wanted this episode. But if you
• 1:44:08
  Speaker 1: want to head over there for additional holiday episodes, we
• 1:44:12
  Speaker 1: covered the family Stone and Black Christmas, another popular request, indeed,
• 1:44:19
  Speaker 1: And with that, Happy holidays, Happy Holidays. Here's a sword,
• 1:44:26
  Speaker 1: Go kill someone young one.
• 1:44:28
  Speaker 3: Bye bye bye.
• 1:44:32
  Speaker 1: The Bechdel Cast is a production of iHeartMedia, hosted and
• 1:44:36
  Speaker 1: produced by me Jamie Loftus and.
• 1:44:38
  Speaker 3: Me Caitlyn Dorante. The podcast is also produced by Sophie
• 1:44:42
  Speaker 3: Lichtermann and.
• 1:44:43
  Speaker 1: Edited by Caitlyn Durrante. Ever Heard of Them?
• 1:44:46
  Speaker 3: That's Me? And our logo and merch and all of
• 1:44:49
  Speaker 3: our artwork in fact, are designed by Jamie Loftus, Ever
• 1:44:53
  Speaker 3: heard of her?
• 1:44:54
  Speaker 1: Oh My God? And our theme song, by the way,
• 1:44:57
  Speaker 1: was composed by Mike Kaplan.
• 1:44:59
  Speaker 3: With vocals by Katharine Voskrosynski.
• 1:45:01
  Speaker 1: Iconic and especial thanks to the one and only Aristotle Ascevedo.
• 1:45:06
  Speaker 3: For more information about the podcast, please visit Linktree Slash
• 1:45:10
  Speaker 3: Spectelcast