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The Real Reason You Feel Stuck, Burnt Out, and Unfulfilled · Mork Unfiltered

• speaker-0: HR always has had a stigma of being people that fired people. speaker-1: Most companies have actually decreased the amount of investment in leadership development and in developing talent. speaker-0: There's always going to be some level of percentage that you have ownership and accountability for. speaker-1: vast majority of people think they know themselves well and actually fift only fifteen percent of people. speaker-0: And when I took that leap, I would be remiss if I didn't say I was freaking myself out. speaker-1: What's the most foundational skill in leadership that most people miss? Welcome back to Mork Unfiltered Folks. You know, every company has someone who holds it all together. And it's not the CEO and it's not the head of sales, it's oftentimes the person nobody sees coming. Today's guests never planned a career in human resources. A single conversation with a stranger changed everything. She spent nearly two decades at one of the world's top professional services firm and then walked away. Well that followed was a series of moves that, while they may have looked messy from the outside, They actually led her to the role that she was always meant to have, leading people through one of the most complex integrations imaginable at one of the most world's most prestigious electronic brands. Along the way, she pushed through a polish that most organizations won't even talk about. And she did it with a leadership philosophy her grandmother gave her in a single sentence. This is Mork Unfiltered, and this is Gabby Bador. Welcome to the show, Gabby. speaker-0: Hello, thank you so much. I appreciate being here. speaker-1: You're so welcome. We're really, really happy to have you. So, you know, one of the things I'm always very curious about is how people end up kind of like in the place that they're at. Right. And so it sounds like you never really intended to get into human resources. Tell us a little bit how you ended up there. speaker-0: think honestly it's just because I like to talk and I'm personable. And so throughout school, I always worked and it was always in a people interfacing role. And lo and behold, when I was working as a cashier in my junior to senior year in college, I was one of the highest grossing cashier lanes. People would come and just buy a potato because they wanted to have a conversation. And I think when I look back at that, it's the listening aspect. Sometimes people just want to be heard. And it's over Silly things. But regardless, I met this customer. ⁓ this gentleman had said, ⁓ you would be great at human resources because I could see that you're dealing with people that are complaining, some people that are happy. Have you ever thought about it? And genuinely I didn't. I was a communications major and just thought I would go into media. Right. So, like a long story short, was introduced to his wife and started as an intern at the time Coopers and Librand, ⁓ doing tax grunt work, you know, checking people's expenses. Like this isn't Fun. This takes me away from people. But it inner it started changing because I was interacting with having to have conversations that were tough to say even to partners that we can't allow this expense to go through. We're going to have to omit this. And sometimes you realize that you can't take things personally. So that evolved once I graduated into a human resource role, recruiting for the Midwest universities, and was shipped out to Chicago, which has been my dream. I was there for 10 years and That opened up a world of opportunity for an awesome company, which I still believe is awesome in brass ring. I'm very loyal to that brand, but It opened up opportunity for other people facing roles. So it started in HR and recruitment, then went into learning and development leadership roles, chief of staff roles, and to which point then I landed the Washington Metro lead role for HR. And certainly when I look back at my journey, I never thought I would want to be or even know really what encompassed an HR because back then you always thought it was about firing people. And it's so much more. So much more than that. What speaker-1: What do you think most people get wrong about human resources? ⁓ the speaker-0: They're just process oriented, that they're just processors. I do believe that that's what we were years ago. ⁓ that we were hiring, firing, processing people to start, you know, with the organization, pushing paperwork, ⁓ but it wasn't fun. And HR always has had a stigma of being people that fired people until you're able to establish a different level of respect and relationship in some organizations where HR is truly a partner and has a seat at the table. It's a different lens of HR. speaker-1: What's been the most interesting lens for you at HR like what 'cause L HR is so multifaceted, right? There's so many different areas to it. You know, there there there's perks, there's benefits, there's labor relations, there's you know, there's leadership and development, right? What what's the area that you've most enjoyed in Hawaii? speaker-0: I most enjoy, which is probably very odd to say, having the difficult conversations where people can't and don't take a step back to look inward first. I think for me that challenge is trying to get through the employee or the person, if you will, that genuinely comes out at it comes out of the conversation first by pointing fingers or saying, I can't believe this happened to me. And for me, it's being able to recalibrate that view to say, okay, let's take a step back. Let's try to understand how we got here. And let's also come to the table understanding that there's always going to be some level of percentage that you have ownership and accountability for. So let's at least agree to that because it's not always 100% someone else or a situation. It's it's found us. And so the one part that I do enjoy is having those conversations where there is a light at the end of that meeting that says, you know, I didn't look at it from that perspective or I didn't even take it in that view. It's being able to provide a genuine perspective that wasn't even on the table. But I have a little asterisk to that because I genuinely believe that if you're not respected for what you're doing in your role, especially in a human interaction role. I don't believe people will give you that time of day much the less the opportunity to have a conversation to level set with them. I do believe it needs to come from a place and from an individual that they want to hear from, that they trust what they're that what they're hearing, rather than it being a level of what's in the book on page sixty-two, paragraph three, this is how you handle a conversation when someone is challenged. speaker-1: What what what are the what are the requisites you think in terms of skills and abilities to be good, you know, and to have a good career and and and human resource human resources? speaker-0: You know, people always say when I ask, especially during interviews, you know, why is it that you want to go into HR? And the common answer is, ⁓ I just love working and talking to people. Well, it's wonderful that you do, right? But there's so many facets to that is, you know, HR has an element of you need to be fair, even under the most, you know, uncomfortable circumstances. It's not always fun. And I think what makes a human resource professional respected, heard. you know, is you need to listen. And I think a lot of that even is a lack of leaders, right? At times when I provide that informal coaching to leaders is from an outside in a conversation, like, but you're not listening. You need to listen, allow the individual to have the conversation. But a lot of times we just hear, but that means you're not digesting what's being discussed. And so listening is a really huge skill set that sometimes it, you know, it may be deemed as easy, but it's not because you can zone out. ⁓ you're not catching everything. But listening is a is a huge deal when it comes to having to connect with people and getting some messages across. speaker-1: It's it's so true. I mean, what you say to most people listening to this podcast, it might sound obvious, right? People would be like, ⁓ yeah, of course I need to listen. But then, you know, you've probably read all the all the all the ⁓ all the psychology out out there about, you know, the the different levels of listening between one, two and three and what that means and active listening. You know, for the sake of the audience, ⁓ Gabby, how how if I wanted to become a better listener, what do I need to do? speaker-0: I think it's okay sometimes to just have, how do I call it? ⁓ for some people it's uncomfortable silence, is being able to pause and digest what the individual is saying, but also so that you can understand what they're saying. Not what you think they're saying, but what you genuinely understand of what they're saying. It's a it's a completely different roadmap. And sometimes there is a great deal of talking over, there's a great deal of interjecting, there's a great deal of combating healthily with what they're saying rather than just listening. listening and having the opportunity for pause to even collect your thoughts on how you want to respond or more importantly, how to digest what it is that they're speaking to you about. I think silence sometimes is a great virtue so that you can actually understand what's going on in front of you. speaker-1: Agree a hundred percent. I mean, I think one of the things that I some found so powerful about silence, I call it the power of the pause, is that nature abhors a vacuum, right? And so oftentimes you'll find that when you don't say anything, the person interjects and will say something. And they'll and they'll and they'll often give you more information sometimes than they intended to. Correct. But it's it's interesting because you know, we live in a world where things are moving so fast and and people are so easily distracted. speaker-0: Yes. speaker-1: One of the questions I would have is, you know, listening requires patience and it requires time. So how do we get people to slow down and actually invest the time in properly listening? speaker-0: Well, geez, I think it comes to outcomes. And you said patience. Sometimes I don't have the best patience either. So I'll put that out there. Yes. And so at times when it comes to those conversations where we're going on and on and we're going in circles or we're belaboring the topic, it's okay, let's just regroup here. This is what I heard you saying. This is what we want the outcome to be. Right. Am I missing something? Right. And at times it's if someone would know how to read the room, which many times people do, don't get me wrong. Mm-hmm. It's like, okay, this is a cue. I need to tighten up my my conversation because I'm rehashing something that we've already solved. So I think how you go about that is exactly that is sometimes you need to just because either the patience runs out, you're under a time crunch, you're trying to assist and you're trying to find an outcome that at least when the individual leaves your office, there's at least a plan of attack, or we have to regroup later. ⁓ I I think a lot of times though is driving what the outcome needs to look like. speaker-1: In your experience, what's one thing you wish more leaders and executives did that would save you a lot of headaches in terms of the role that you have in HR? And speaker-0: A loaded question. For me, I don't want to even beat a dead horse talking about listening. I mean, certainly it's extremely important. I think sometimes it's understanding other people's perspectives without imposing your own. So that sometimes if we have to do it a different way, it could at times yield a better outcome. And sometimes it doesn't. But trust is a big deal, right? And so I think with leaders that I see across the board, I mean. All ridiculously intelligent, smart business strategists. I I mean just they're just very impressionable. And I think because we do move fast, high stress environment, you have to be agile, you're going a mile a minute. At times I think it would be wonderful to see leaders be a bit more invested in the the leaders that they're cultivating. And sometimes that amounts to more time. It amounts to maybe stepping aside with how you would want to handle a certain situation. But allowing your successor to do it differently and having it be okay. So I think at times it's holding on to control a little bit too much and letting that control go. speaker-1: Yeah. It's it's so hard for some people. I mean in the work that I do, I do this diagnostic where I try and identify the person's like six core hijackers. And and because this is what happens is people get hijacked, right? And ⁓ and you know, it's funny because one of the hijackers that's very common, especially among, you know, ⁓ pretty successful senior executives, is the perfectionist. It's like they have to have things done in a very specific way. Yes. And they have to control every step of the process. Yeah. ⁓ and sometimes you see that in in younger managers that are less experienced. Sometimes you see that in older, typically male managers that have like always done it the same way. It's it's challenging. But I found that once you expose people to their hijackers and once they are aware of them, that you can then call them out more often and that you'll be like, All right, you know, is this really what you want me to do? Or are you getting hijacked by your perfectionist? And then people go like, ⁓ damn, maybe I'm getting hijacked. speaker-0: Completely. And I think that's where disengagement begins, right? Where the leader doesn't have malintent. It's more also a control or sometimes I also see insecurities when it gets to a certain level where you do have a successor that probably can surpass you, which I think is very complementary to some extent. But when we have other behaviors that come into play, it's very difficult for that individual to feel as though they have a stake in the game. And when they don't, that's your first form of disengagement, where it's a, okay, I've tried different perspectives, I've tried different approaches, I've certainly proven that my way at times can yield very profitable results. But because I can't get it to the person that I need it from the most, which is kind of that parent that you always want to hear, I'm proud of you. You start then looking at other opportunities where you will obtain that. And I think that's also something that cultivates into, you know, high turnover. ⁓ speaker-1: Absolutely. Switching gears now for a second, you know, you you spent, you know, nearly I think two decades at at PWC, right? Yes. ⁓ and definitely very, very, you know, venerable institution, very well regarded, very prestigious. Sure. Why why leave all of a sudden after two decades there? speaker-0: I get this question all the time. And it's made me think a great deal. So in the moment, and obviously it evolved into I had just done a TV show for a year, I was trying to ⁓ do something a bit creative on how do we can increase our our morale scores in the Washington Metro market and it was a wonderful experience. And after a while I started seeing my peers leaving, going to boutique companies, going to Google, the big name companies. And you know, back then, which sounds like I'm dating myself, I'm truly young. I mean at spirit. I'm at le I'm only like and so back then speaker-1: I I am too, Gabby. There there's no there's no white barrier here at all. speaker-0: No, not I call her mine. Exactly. So back then it was all about longevity. It's you don't job hop, you don't skip around. Interesting longevity is what's gonna open those doors. And all of a sudden when I started seeing my peers or even leaders that I respected, that I I appreciated working with them, working for them, I was thinking, ⁓ my gosh, maybe I should be doing the same thing. And so I started exploring. speaker-1: It's just the lighting. speaker-0: And I decided, well, you also get to a certain point in certain organizations that you flatline. There's essentially nothing there for you to move up unless someone moves on, gets promoted. And so for me, I was definitely career driven where I wanted more. And at that time I thought, you know what, let's make the leap. And of course I've had had numerous conversations with mentors at the time. That it said if you don't do it now, it wouldn't make real sense to do it later. Right. And so I took that leap and I thought to myself, all right, I'm gonna take time off. ⁓ I'll do some consulting on the side for purposes of what the need may be in HR. And when I took that leap, I would be remiss if I didn't say I was freaking myself out. Because after a week, I thought, ⁓ my gosh, did I did I have a lapse in my mental judgment? Like what was I thinking? There's definite fear that was there. Not that I hadn't thought through it. It was more reality, hits you in the face. And it's like, okay, so what are you gonna do now? And my goal was not to settle. If I had taken this leap, I was gonna take the time to ensure that I was gonna align myself that had more purpose in what I was going to be doing. So still in HR, but in different aspects and different facets, different industries that I would try. And so then became my leapfrogging, you know, on average a year in in different organizations. That certainly landed me here when I was, you know, tapped on the shoulder. And what drove it drove that decision was okay, here's an organization that is growing, that, you know, is is facing a challenge as far as how do we make ourselves more enriched, more fruitful from the people perspective. Like do we put in performance management programs, et cetera? So for me, my leap was I want to do what everybody else was doing. And I probably was also a little naive thinking it was just gonna be easy. I I mean. I was certainly blessed that had a good brand that doors open, don't get me wrong, but you know, I there was definitely elements and moments of did you make the right decision? And, you know, looking back, I absolutely did. I think sometimes our best decisions come when we don't let fear drive us. Certainly not saying don't do that when you don't have anything to your name, because you certainly need a livelihood. ⁓ but it's it's been a very growing journey for me. And I th I still believe it's a journey. I d certainly haven't stopped learning, but it was definitely something looking back, I was also told, you know, when I was interviewing is why didn't you leave after five or six years? And now the trend, or not the trend, I shouldn't say that, but the numbers show that people don't stay anymore twenty, thirty years in an organization. It's, you know, that usually that five to eight year mark and they're ready to move on. But, you know, twenty years ago was much different. speaker-1: You know, it's interesting because your your career is like is unusual from the perspective that, you know, you spend a long time at PwC. Then you have these three stints in different organizations where, like you said, you're there like around a year. And then now you've been, I think, six plus years in the in in your current company. ⁓ one of the things I'm curious about is I've been reading a number of books, you know, around career change, you know, and I've read books like, you know, Design Your Life by Bill Burnett, you know, and and and you know, there's another fantastic book by Virginia Ivara on on kind of like work transitions and and and you know, finding the right thing. What was what what what do you think was the biggest learning for you as you transitioned through these different companies to finally get to the position that you're in now where you've you've been there longer and it's been more stable? What what what did you learn along the way about yourself and around And also finding like what the right fit is for you. 'Cause I think a lot of people struggle with this. I've struggled with it too. After I left Google, you know, I tried a startup, didn't go anywhere. Then I went to one startup after four months I was out. Then I went to another you know, it's like and you're like it's like trying on a different pair of socks, right? What speaker-0: What did what did you think? speaker-1: Stocks is boring. That's a guy thing. Susie's definitely not sexier, so I guess. speaker-0: You know, I I think for me, and it and certainly it it takes that time and the confidence, right? Is to not settle. And I'm I've I I think my legacy too, I would always want to be known for be driven by integrity. I think integrity is huge. Personal wise, professional wise, is that you stand, you know, by the truth or by your truth, especially in HR. There's really no great areas in some ways. For me, the biggest lesson is that I need to be a part of an organization. That aligns with the core values that they have posted on the walls. And a lot of times those posters are not what you see that are being exercised. And that's really difficult for me. Also, I need to work in an environment where I respect the individuals that I support. Right. So even being a CHRO, I'm still serving my internal clients. Our teams are serving the internal clients that are out there. speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: you know, connecting with cl with our clients. And so if they're happy internally, they're certainly going to be showing their best to our clients. And so for me, it's the respect of so much w who I report to, what I do to ensure that it has impact and knowing that those posters on the wall is something that I can stand by because we do exercise those values every day. And I think through my journey, I've realized it was okay to step outside my comfort zone, learn different industries, some of which I probably wouldn't want to touch again, and others that I thought were fascinating. And here I am in an environment six years in where I've grown exponentially thinking, ⁓ geez, you know, what can I bring here that I learned at PwC that could be of an asset? And I certainly know that I've done that. And also Realizing that sometimes the things that spoke to you don't speak to you anymore. And so for the things that brought me fulfillment, I'm not saying that they don't, but they're taking a second seat, a back seat. And so if I were to take that next leap, which I'm sure will be there, I just hope that I land in an environment where now the stress, the long hours, you know, doing litigations, whatever the case may be. is for the greater good where, for example, my wish, let's say would be, ⁓ my gosh, it would be phenomenal if I could go work at Make a Wish Foundation or I could work at St. Jude's or, you know, go work at the ASPCA. It would have to be mission driven, where I know that my work is for the greater good of impact that is changing lives, you know, senior people. And so I think for me, if I were to make a decision, it would have to be more now aligned with Where do I want to make more of an impact? speaker-1: It sounds like from what you're saying, 'cause you you you you you've said a number of things that I thought was very interesting there. On the one hand, I've heard you say, you know, it helps enormously when your personal values are aligned with the values of the organization. speaker-0: Yes. Right. speaker-1: And on the other hand, the other thing I heard you say is over time, the things that are important to us change. Right. Like probably ten years ago, working for Make a Wish Foundation was not important to you. And it was probably not on your radar. Right. So so over time, you know, one of the things that I found fascinating is people's values seem to change over time. A young person might be like, I want the beamer and I want the house and I want the, you know, and I want to be on CNBC. And, you know, the person that's been doing this for twenty five years is like, You been there, done that, been on C and CNBC. You know, I just want a car that runs and I don't want all the headaches that come with like the three house. What can people do to better figure out, A, figure out what their values are? Because I think a lot of people, if you go into a room and ask, hey, you know, write down what your top five values are, I think you challenge a hell of a lot of people to get me on three. So what can people do to better understand what their values are? And then the second part of the equation is kind of like, how can they figure out? Whether the values that they have, the things that are important to them are actually aligned with the organization that they're looking at or speaker-0: So yeah, so I think there's a a multitude of ways of approaching that. I think evolution is a big deal and staying true to self. I mean, yes, we hear authenticity all the time. I get that, but what does that really mean? You know, for me, I always go back to, you know, the movie Runaway Bride, which I know sounds so comical with Julia Roberts, and now I forget his name too, but Richard Gere, sorry. And so the movie, sure, it it's it's funny. But there's something poignant there when people have talked to me about gosh, Gabby, I just don't what to do. I don't know what I like anymore. And and so I go back to that scene where, yes, she's constantly running away from the altar. And there's a point to my story here. And at the end, you know, Richard Gere is essentially saying, You don't even know what's what eggs you like. You just like what you like based on who you're dating, who you're married to. You don't even know what you like. And you know, she always wanted to be into designer. And so she took the time away to essentially put six different versions of eggs in front of her. And that was the beginning of her journey, where she's like, ⁓ yeah, I don't like sunny side up eggs, I like scrambled eggs and hard. And so while some people may laugh at that, I think there's a lot of meaning behind that is where do you as an Fulfilled, your passion is not speaking to you. You feel as though where you're working is just a check in the box. You're not getting the reciprocity of what you're putting forth because your cup is empty. And we hear that a lot too. But there's so much truth behind that. When your work or life separating work feels heavy and you feel that you're not fulfilled, that I think to me is a wake-up call to say, okay, let me even go back to a list of What do I enjoy? What is important to me? Because you're absolutely right. Those things change throughout time. And if we continue to ignore it or we just coast, then I feel as though even at work, you're ignoring some of the things that are probably speaking to you to say it's time to move on and moving on to something of a greater good that would fulfill you. People ask me all the time, you know, Gabby, if you were to go back to any job, what would you go back to? I said I would go back to being a cashier at the supermarket. Screw you know, scanning scan absolutely. And people always laugh when I say that. And to me, it's simpleton. It's I got my fulfillment talking to a myriad of different people. Yes, dealing with irate customers that wanted a refund because their eggs were cracked. But to me, the greatest fulfillment was making someone's day, even when someone was coming through your line, you know, coming out of a funeral. And I know that sounds so superficial. But I always go back to it's the simple things. So if the simple things of coming into work and doing your job carry a greater weight than if you were to be at home and be just as happy, there's a problem somewhere. And so I think a lot of times we just don't take care of ourselves to look at all the little red flags that have been kind of, you know, perking up a little bit. And when we do, I I do believe that self reflection is very important to anyone, quite frankly, when things have shifted. speaker-1: Fascinating that you say that. It's you know, I'm ⁓ I'm flying off to ⁓ to ⁓ Antiwa, Guatemala this weekend to to the Volcano Summit, which is a big tech summit that happens every year there. And I've been going for a couple of years. And this year, ⁓ the topic that I'm giving a keynote on is the most dangerous person in the room is you. And the whole topic is around self-awareness. And it's around, you know, you know, you've probably read the research from Tasa Urich, ⁓ you know, talking about how, you know. speaker-0: Unreal. speaker-1: The vast majority of people think they know themselves well and actually fifty only fifteen percent of people do, according to her research and her team. If you were to give advice to a person on what should they do to know themselves better in an effort to choose the right career or right job or right company, what do you tell that person? speaker-0: Right away I say to those individuals is what are you comparing yourself to? What what are you what what is your barometer here? I mean, are you measuring against what, you know, respectfully, what your parents want, what your friends want? You know, I just recently had a conversation here too of you know, an individual wanting to be promoted. You know, my friends have all these jobs and I'm I just I'm not I'm just an associate. And I said, Well, why would you allow that to define you? 'Cause you're doing great here. You're successful and you have a a great roadmap in front of you. I think sometimes people are very fearful. And I say this for myself in my journey when I was younger, like yesterday, is that you're afraid of being true to yourself. I think there's sometimes, ⁓ there's a sign, the lights went out, but sometimes I believe that we're afraid of being our true selves because we're not of we're afraid of it being not approved, not people not liking it. So if you want to go and you know and you spent all these years in college and you got this master's and it's in government and you decide to go work in a completely different industry. It's okay to do that. It's okay to be judged by other people, but I give you courage for making that decision because ultimately you're going to be happy. And I think it's very difficult for people, one, to have self-reflection. Because they're, I believe, fearful of what they truly want to do versus what they probably should be doing. So true. I think there's a disparity there. speaker-1: So that's that's so true. I ⁓ I had a person on the show ⁓ yesterday, ⁓ the episode hasn't come yeah out yet, ⁓ another CHRO. Okay. And his father had been a petroleum engineer. And so he became a petroleum engineer and he did that job for eleven years and absolutely hated it. And yet, you know, that's the path so many people take, right? Is they're like, Well, my dad did this, my uncle did this, my grandpa did this. It seems like the logical thing to do. I'm not really sure how to figure out this whole career thing. So I'll just jump on that wagon and as long as it pays the rent, I'm fine. And I it the feeling I get now is especially young people are starting to rethink this a lot more. They're starting to to challenge this a lot more. But of course, that that that then begs to the next question, which is okay, well, if you're not going to go down this predetermined route, how do you figure out what the other career options are? And some of the research that I've been seeing is very interesting because the conventional wisdom will be like, well, you have to do a lot of Deep work and you have to do a lot of self-reflection and you have to read a lot and go to seminars and do a lot of self-assessments and do disk and do Hogan and do you know Myers Briggs and all that stuff, right? Yeah. To death. But then other people will be like, well, the problem is that leads to paralysis analysis because you overanalyze yourself and then you stay stuck there and you don't take any action. And so those those people, the unconventional people, will say, like, well, actually finding the right career. is more a question of experimentation. It's going out and it's trying a lot of different things, realizing a lot of it's not going to work out, trying to figure out what you like about that job or that career, what you hate about it, going out trying something else and then trying, trying, trying until you figure it out. And I'm wondering if there isn't maybe a middle ground where you need some level of self reflection and analysis to at least have a baseline and then go out and try stuff. And I don't know how that lengths to you, but speaker-0: You know, honestly, there's also an aspect here too where there's a lot of scapegoating, right? Where ⁓ I wasn't given the opportunity. And I'm I'm not dismissing any of that because, you know, a lot of that is true. I understand Exactly. Thank you for for filling that in. Exactly how I exactly how I feel is stop for a minute, right? Because you're in charge of you. speaker-1: Arnold hijabber. speaker-0: So it's not about putting out the right energy. It's about doing the homework. It's about doing the work. You know, I I can say for for my life example, you know, there was ⁓ a cousin in the family, super smart, wonderful, you know, worked at a re retail store, had all these masters. And it's like, ⁓ they're not hiring me. I'm like, ⁓ well, how many applications have you done? Well, I mean, just one. I don't have time. I'm like, ⁓ okay. So If this is where you want to be, the excuses to me, anybody knows excuses don't really lend itself really well in my band camp because after a while, you're wasting a lot of time on focusing on why you didn't do something versus you need to go do something. And so there's a balance there. So yes, self-reflection is key, but I'm also a huge proponent of, you know, go go get a coach, go talk to a therapist. Mental health is a big deal. Sometimes we stand in our own way because we overthink. Too much and we put all these pressures on ourselves. So for me, I I think it's go to a confidant that you trust, that you respect. I would think someone that's also been equally, you know, successful, someone who's faced adversity, someone that's not your cookie cutter individual that has a great storyboard, you know, go talk about your thoughts. And sometimes just talking through it, that light does go off. I I definitely err on the side of always challenging yourself. You know, excuses and taking that accountability piece is very important to me. The excuses tend to be on the wayside. speaker-1: I agree with you a hundred percent. I mean, I was working with a client, you know, who was you know, one of his one of his one of his hijackers was basically kind of like, you know, this escape artist who, you know, avoids problems, right? Okay. And and on top of that, he was an introvert, right? He was like an I INM TP or something like that. Right. And so one of the things I started playing back to him is like, well, you're an introvert. So to start, you don't like being around a lot of people because that tires you, right? But you know that you need to be around people to actually find new job opportunities. But then makes you uncomfortable, right? So your hijacker will be like, no, no, we're uncomfortable. And you know, we're actually much more comfortable at home reading a book on the subject. The problem is reading a book is not going to get you a job opportunity. Correct. Right. And and so when I when I helped him make the connection on how these patterns were working together, and I said the only thing that is going to solve this is you taking action and joining certain groups and joining trade groups and meeting different people in different kinds of jobs to see what they like and what they don't like. speaker-0: Rects. speaker-1: And thinking about the times you've been happiest and trying to tie that all together, then all of a sudden that person started to make progress. And like, you know, four months later, his life completely transformed because he got out of his shell. He met a lot of people, he uncovered some opportunities, you know, he had an opportunity to try something that was relatively risk free for the organization and for him. And fast forward two months later, they made him a job offer and he's never been happier. But if he had stayed at home spamming resumes on Indeed, sure. Right. Or and and reading books, he would have gotten nowhere. He might know himself well, but he would have gotten nowhere. Okay. Super interesting. I want to switch gears to leadership a second, because that's the other big component which we're all wrestling with. You know, wha w when you think of kind of leadership today, you know, you when you and I first met, you you talked to me about a line that your grandmother gave you. Tell tell us more about that and how that ties to leadership and and and how important it is. speaker-0: You know, there's so many when you said that also in the intro, I'm like, ⁓ my God, which line did I give him? Because there were so many with my grandmother being, you know, an Italian family, it was always about doing the job and doing it well, regardless, right? But for her, there was a few things. One of the things that she would always say to me is, you know, don't forget that tomorrow is always going to be better than today. So always try to be better the the following day, right? Yeah. And the other one, which I know is a conglomerate, but still it's like don't put off what you can do today for tomorrow. Those things that she shared, you know, came from an individual that probably worked harder than all of us put together, right? And coming up in the depression and, you know, living off the land. And it's not sitting in an office. Not that I'm not that I'm saying anything's wrong with that, but there's a different perspective on how she grew up in her lifetime until she was ninety, being an immigrant to this country. And For her, hard work was a given and there was no excuses. There was no latitude. It's you have a job, no matter what it is, you need to do it at a hundred and ten percent. And for me, there was always there was never a we're proud of you growing up, right? But their actions showed whether they were talking to someone to, you know, to say, ⁓ this is my granddaughter, this is what she does, and it's wonderful. And I think when it comes to leadership, you have to be humble. And that's something else that she taught too is you know, when you come from nothing. Anything that you have is rich. Anything. Bread at the table. Bread at the table was huge. She would always say, Whoever has teeth don't have bread, and whoever has bread doesn't have teeth. And I know it loses translation, you know, because it's an Italian, but in a leadership role, you need to stay grounded. You need to stay humble. You are where you are because you've achieved it by hard work. But you also can't forget where you came from. So that you're worried about cultivating followers than you are cultivating other leaders. And when we as leaders cannot stay grounded, cannot stay humble, cannot focus on enriching other people that are trying to strive to be at your level and leading by example, then it's very difficult to be a holistic leader where you're respected. And I think to me that speaks volumes for leadership that I respect versus leadership, let's say that Not that I don't respect, but that I don't align with. You know, you you you have leaders that speak about really making it people driven and they you can see it in their actions. They're involved, they're engaged, they wanna get front and center, they wanna make phone calls, and then you have leaders that say it, but are the farthest from understanding the DNA of the organization. It's it's a little bit of speaker-1: One of things that I'm I'm so curious about is, you know, when I when I talk to people who work in talent development, you know, who who who work with you know our teams in in a number of companies. And you've seen this over the last couple of years. Some companies who are in that space really struggle. A lot of leaders in different organizations will always tell you people are our most important asset. They will say that. But then the data shows us that on average. Most companies have actually decreased the amount of investment in leadership development and in developing Tala. What are we doing wrong? speaker-0: It's a numbers game. And I smirk at that, right? Because I don't believe that many times where organizations are struggling that they do put people first. Well, what does that look like? Are you investing in their learning? Are you providing flexibility or things that speak to them? Right. Are you enhancing your healthcare benefits? Are you enhancing ⁓ you know a career longevity versus ⁓ you know, a ⁓ revolving door? And so I do believe organizations that have it sound. are shown in their people through the career longevity. But when a organization says it, but is driven more more, which is important, don't get me wrong, but profitability and revenue and making sure we're hitting our numbers, well what's what what what story do you want? Do you want the success story and you have a revolving door of people and then you have reviews that show that you're not about people? Or would you rather have the success equally also with retention of your talent, of the people that can speak to, ⁓ it's a great company. I've been there for five years. They treat people great. It's not just lip service. You know, the the best marketing is the free marketing coming from individuals that either have worked in your organization or continue to work in your organization. And it's really, really difficult to attack that rhetoric that's out there when it does say, like, ⁓ you you know, you say it's all about people, but you know, you You riffed me after three months after you told me that my job would not be impacted, you know, or you told me that you won this work and we didn't win this work. It there's a lot of things that sometimes the the rhetoric there shows that it's garbage in and garbage out versus no we value where we start, which is with our people. speaker-1: You the the the the challenge, just playing devil's advocate, right? I saw this a lot in Latin America. I was I was in Latin America for six years running, you know, of all things a leadership development company, which I always joked. If you can sell leadership development in Latin America, you can sell ice to the to to to the Eskimos and and sand to the Saudis. What what you know, if if you're if you're if you're trying to convince a CFO, right, or whoever owns the budget on the ROI of leadership development, how do you do that? speaker-0: Look at how much it costs you to hire people or terminate people. That's the thing that they miss, right? At times, and not they. But that's what I think at times is missed, excuse me, is the leadership development is important because the ROI is that you don't have to go out and rehire and spend another thirty or fifty thousand every time you're losing someone, you're spending money to get someone back. Or a person back. You know, if you're not looking in leadership development to ensuring that they're mitigating risk and having accountability and having compassion, which they don't compete with one another, is you're retaining that severance package that you have to send out because you're trying to mitigate risk against the organization. And it's not to say that you carry dead weight. Absolutely not. But instead of doing that, what are we doing to invest in the people that are giving you the most potential of the organization versus looking at it from the perspective that the rate of return is going to be minimal? Are you looking at the expense that it takes in order to go back out and recruit and onboard this individual? It's really good. That's gonna cost you, you know, forty on average they say it's about thirty eight thousand dollars. So where where's your win? Is not investing in the people or costing more to have to replace every turnover that you're losing in the organization? speaker-1: I think that's a that's a wonderful point, Gabby, because I have run into so many companies. I was talking to a company ⁓ just last week out in California, very successful company, you know, successful company that nobody's ever heard of. And and and and that's a different story. But but one of the things that they were talking about was very interesting, is they had very high rotation in sales. Okay. Very high. And of course there's a like you said, there's a cost to hiring each one of those salespeople. Right. But then there's a cost when they leave. There's like the loss of knowledge, the loss of momentum without account, the impact on the rest of the team. And ⁓ and they don't invest anything in in in development. Right. And so what have you seen in terms of what the data says on if you look at let's take, you know, employees twenty to thirty years old, and that's probably too wide a range, but you know, let's take, I don't know, twenty five to thirty year olds. How important is growth and development for those people when choosing one employer versus another or choosing to stay at a company versus going somewhere speaker-0: I I think the definitions have changed significantly. I I would think several years ago or many years ago it showed that people were investing in their four ⁓ one K, meaning the twenty five to thirty year olds, you know, saving for a rainy day. Yeah. ⁓ making sure that they had, you know, a a job and they would do anything even if they hated it. They wanted to show that they were committed. Yeah. Now when you look at those when you look at those statistics, it shows we're not gonna wait for a rainy day, we're gonna go on that golf trip for two weeks and we're gonna go to Turks and Caicos now. We're not going to wait because we don't know if we can get there because stats show that once you retire within five years, God forbid, many people are no longer with us. And so it's shifted. And the shift is, sure, I want career growth, but guess what? I want flexibility. I want to be able to ⁓ work from home. I want to have tuition reimbursement. What about that unlimited vacation time policy? Because we're working anyway. There's so many things that have shifted that now that's currency. They may not see it in their bottom line, but what they do get is Well, I'm able to go to the Bahamas, but I can work from there. Nobody cares because I'm getting my job done. And yeah, that four hundred one K is important, but no, I I'm gonna invest in my in my present rather than investing in my future. So for them, sure, growth is important as long as it's also in alignment with I'm gonna get rich in the process, right? My livelihood's gonna go up. But I also want my livelihood to represent the kind of life I want to live with the flexibility of working. So for them the investments and I believe the reasons speak a heck of a lot differently than they did, you know, ten to fifteen years ago. Okay. speaker-1: What when you think about leadership, I mean leadership, you know, this ability to influence others and kind of like bring them along in the pursuit of a common goal, right? To simplify a little bit the definition. There's so many abilities that we need to be good leaders, right? We talked about one of them, which was, you know, active listening. What's the most foundational skill in leadership that most people miss in your experience? speaker-0: Are you how are you being creative with solving? I think the one thing that drives me crazy is we're solving the same thing the same way we did 10 years ago. So how are we advancing in our leadership style and how we approach the problems, how we solve the problems, even if they've worked? But how about we recalibrate because maybe we can solve it and it can actually generate a big a bigger yield? And so I think we're too comfortable. I think leaders have to constantly challenge being uncomfortable. I think leaders stand out when they're distinct amongst themselves first, but then that distinction transcends into a bigger, a bigger element for the organization that you have a leader that's a trendsetter. So even if a leader has been in their role for 10 or 20 years, they're staying above the trends, they're staying ahead of the trends, excuse me. They're solving differently. They're making a mark because they're not going by the book. And what did work 10 years ago is not going to work now. So I believe leaders can make a mark with how they solve. And also what's driving them is you're not cookie cutter. And if you if you stay in that cookie cutter spot, I'm not saying it's not safe, but you're going to be outled in a sense because those that stay above the industry standards or how they solve definitely make a different mark than those that are just, you know, coasting with what it looks like to lead. Lead doesn't always mean also follow me, right? Lead means come alongside of me and let's do this together. Right. And I think that's a mess at times too. speaker-1: Yeah, it's that's a super interesting point because we often fall into this assumption that leading is, you know, getting people to kind of do what you want, right? ⁓ you know, like I'm leading and I'm convincing you to like help me and lighten the load and do your part, right? When in reality, you know, one of the things that we see in the most successful organizations, I remember this when I was at Google, one of the things that most impressed me at Google was how anybody, regardless of, you know, race, color, Age level, you know, experience could step up to a leadership capability. And we would see very young people, sometimes, you know, fresh out of graduate school, yes, step up and lead projects where you're like, they don't have the experience. Like, how are they going to figure this out? And the answer was always like, they're smart, they're hardworking, they'll figure it out. And maybe they'll make some mistakes along the way. But there was one of the things that enabled us to do so much so quickly with a small team was this idea of just empowering smart people even if they don't know and they don't have the experience because they're hungry and they're smart and they're humble, you know, to your point about humility and they're gonna figure it out somehow. Right. And and ⁓ so many organizations would be like, ⁓ no, you know, he's only been here five years and, you know, to be able to do this kind of work, he needs to be here seven and a half years and needs to have done, you know, XYZ trainings. speaker-0: Gas. I don't I don't follow that realm. And that's one of the things through the interviews that I disclosed, you know, someone asked, like, you know, how how quickly do you promote or what's your career progression look like? I said, I don't go by timeline. I go by performance. And so if you've proven yourself in a year, I will promote you. I I don't do this one to three or three years, you know, ⁓ you've been three years, you've perfected it. No, no. I go on merit of what have you earned. And it's interesting because as long as you're resourceful, there's a lot of things many of us don't know. But if you're interested, if you're a curious person, if you're one that wants to solve, you're you're you're going to find the answer. And I think that will always make the mark in being a good leader is you don't settle. Yeah. speaker-1: ⁓ you know, I I don't know if you've read Patrick Lancioni, but you know, he he he talks about, you know, in his book, The Ideal Team Player, he says hungry, humble, smart, but smart from an EQ point of view, not from an IQ point of view. And I love that because th that that's how that's how we looked at it at Google, you know, when I ran my own company afterwards, you know, we we had to figure out how we were gonna hire people and that that was the focus. It was hungry, humble and smart. Yeah, I mean I realize that we only have a couple of minutes left and I would be remiss in not speaker-0: Yes. speaker-1: dealing with the elephant in the room because this topic comes up so much and and and and I love discussing it with human resource people, which obviously is AI and its impact on the workplace, on culture, on the changing nature of our jobs and on leadership. And and I'd and I'd love to know your perspective on AI and leadership. I mean in in a world where everybody now has access to information and and has a PhD level expert in their hands for just about anything. How do you believe leadership is changing and and and what abilities do we now need to be leaders that maybe we didn't need as much before? speaker-0: Yes, you know, AI can provide the answers. I think AI is wonderful with efficiency, all the good things we all talk about for AI, right? I think when it comes to leadership or even primarily even an HR, AI is great to be informed with, you know, how you're making your decisions. But in other words, educate yourself on the type of decisions, but they can't be the human aspect. to make those decisions. You can't have AI make the decisions for you. You can utilize it to inform you. But you know, for me, it's a double edged sword because it's it's AI working with you, not working against you, but AI can't take the place of thinking as a human. And I think for leaders, it's great to utilize it to your advantage of understanding like how do I solve this or how should I go about this or you know, we're up against this client To get different perspective, although it's not always accurate, but primarily from some part it is. But you cannot utilize AI to remove the human decision-making process because then you're truly allowing a quote unquote robotic aspect to solve for the greater good of where a human needs to take place. And I think that's when it becomes disingenuous. ⁓ doesn't exist, then how do you know how to operate if you can't make your own decisions? And I think that's something that AI I hope doesn't get abused by because then we do lose the aspect of the human interaction. It it it I digress for one second because I I did want to bring this up if it came up, but I don't know if it's, you know, something that's prevalent, but there's a commercial by Chase Bank that I'm using a lot in my examples. And in the commercial, it This individual is going, is getting ready in the morning and his toothbrush, you know, the the the robot, the AI robot that's there isn't giving him the toothbrush. And he goes to get, you know, Starbucks or some type of coffee and he's like, you know, black and no sugar. And the robot's giving him coffee and a whole bunch of sugar. And so then it slips to, you know, Chase Bank and it says, you know, it we're we're coming back to you because we want the human connection. And it's all about them opening more pop up banks so that you can walk in and have a conversation. with a human. And so I I think it goes back to that human connection. It cannot replace the human connection. And with leadership, if you replace it, I think you have lost any aspect you have of moving the people equation forward if it's going to be replaced with, you know, essentially superficial thought profit thought thought process. Yeah. speaker-1: It's it's it's interesting that you say that. You know, they they were Google published a paper at the end of last year, Project Dora. And they they studied, you know, thousands of of developers using artificial intelligence and a and a and they found a couple of key things that they found were very interesting. The first that they found is that the high performing teams did significantly better. Like their their level, you know, their productivity was just supercharged with AI. They found that the medium kind of performing teams, you know, they they they improved quite a lot ⁓ because they were coming from a lower base. But then they found that the teams that had like leadership issues, toxic cultures, that, you know, AI just it was like pouring gasoline on a fire. It just like amplified all the problems. It didn't fix the problems, it amplified the existing problems in in in those teams. And to your point, the the other interesting finding that they had was that AI was very good at you know, research, answering answering super questions, certain questions, automating certain tasks, doing things for us. But that oftentimes where teams most failed was when they delegated the judgment piece to AI. Yes. Right? Which is exactly what you just said. When you start having AI make your decisions for you, that's when you start to have a problem because it never has all the context and it doesn't have the gut feeling. speaker-0: An HR. Exactly. An HR. And there I go, cutting you off with my passion. It's because an HR, it can't be driven by an algorithm. It it cannot take place for that empathy, that you know, the the context of which it is. And so when when if you're driving HR an algorithm, you're going to fail. And I don't think it's AI versus human. I think it's AI working alongside a human. I I think it's a it's a mixture. It's not one versus the other, but you also I I would be mortified if HR turned into AI. I the algorithm piece. That I've read is so true. It's how do you use that to really be the empathetic, the compassionate, being able to pull context, you know, it's too risky. It's way too risky in my mind anyway. It's it is speaker-1: Is you know, that said, you know, I'll I'll play devil's advocate there again because one of the experiments that I've done that was very interesting is, you know, I built a custom GPT inside Chat GPT and I told it I told it to coach me as if it was Tony Robbins. And then I uploaded a whole bunch of Tony Robbins books and materials to this thing to give it tons and tons of context. Okay. And what I've started doing over the last year and a half, roughly, is I journal every day. I write things that are happening in my world. And I started taking those journal entries and uploading it into that GPT. And it has been remarkable how well this thing has gotten to know me. I've also uploaded, you know, all my personality tests, you know, my my my my discs and my Myers Briggs and my hijack reassessment, my value. And so what I found is the more context you give it. speaker-0: Wow. speaker-1: the better it becomes and where it's very good is it's very good at like pulling back data over time. Like, you know, on September 16th, you did this and you said this, this, and this. And that actually goes completely against your values and blah. So there are there are things where it just has an uncanny ability to see me, you know, for the person that I am and and call my my my BS, right? That's so you it's been it's been fascinating to see it evolve and grow. Absolutely. speaker-0: Absolutely. speaker-1: ⁓ but then yeah, it it it will never have all the context. So, you know, I've I've I've found that, you know, it's sometimes it'll be like, No, you shouldn't do this or you know, you shouldn't have this person on the podcast because of X, Y, and Z and then I'll have the person on the podcast and and I'll go back and I'll like show the transcript and be like, ⁓ yeah, yeah, you're right. I totally missed that. I didn't think about this angle. Right. It's like, okay. speaker-0: So the one thing that you just mentioned, you know, you uploaded all this and and and certainly it's been obviously the very eye o eye-opening, which is awesome. The question I have though is do you ever feel maybe that's part of my fear too, is where you start to lose a sense of self where you're not thinking the way you normally think, right? Or you have a an AI prompt helping you solidify how you're thinking versus years ago when AI wasn't around, you had to figure it out essentially. on your own in in some regards. And so don't get me wrong, I love AI. AI helps a lot. So I'm not here to tell you anything different. But in my mind it's like, do I, especially as you get older, again, going back to I'm only twenty one, but like when I'm in my fifties and sixties, right, is am I not staying stimulated? And being mentally strong by forcing myself to think differently or solve differently without having an arm that's gonna give you the answer, even though I prompt it. It's well, I wonder how would how how would I have solved it if I didn't have that? Would it would it make me think harder differently? And I think because I value, I think a leve a level of ⁓ I don't know, I guess staying true to self is how much do I want to allow AI to become a second person in me? versus a consultant in me, if that makes sense. speaker-1: That's a great point. It's a great point. And look, I I don't claim to have the answer. I think ⁓ understood. I think, you know, there was a professor who did some who did a a study that was published earlier this year. Okay. He's a graduate graduate business school professor and he did an analysis on his class because he was worried that the students were doing exactly that. They were using AI to solve the problems. And so he came up with a rule which was basically solve the problem first without AI. And then take your solution and feed it to AI and see the different perspectives that it gives you. And I that really resonated with me because I think there is the risk in an economy where we're trying to go so fast and get so many things done that we're just like, well, I'll just have AI figure it out. AI will be the answer. So I could move on to this other thing, which I is more interesting for me. So so so like what I've started to do is I is I have started to intentionally in certain cases check myself and be like, all right. And I don't want to do this work, but I'm gonna try and figure out the answer first. I'm gonna have I'm gonna like hypothesize my answer first, then I'm gonna feed it, you know, whatever claw it or child GPT. Sure. And and I'm gonna see like, you know, am I missing something? Is there a different angle? But you know, it requires it requires a level of discipline and and intellectual curiosity, which not which not everybody has. speaker-0: Agreed. And the patience. And sometimes that's over. speaker-1: The patience. Yeah. Gabby, you know, we're we're coming up at the top of the hour. You know, we we always finish off the show with our lightning round of questions. It's three quick questions, three quick answers, then we'll close out. So ⁓ so are you ready for the lightning round? All right, let's do it. So question number one for you is if you could have any superpower, what would you choose? speaker-0: Ready. would love to bring healing to the world. speaker-1: All right. Okay. Healing to the world of the people. ⁓ question number two. If you could have dinner with anyone in history, alive or dead, who would you choose? speaker-0: My grandmother. Okay. speaker-1: And our final question is if you had to give advice to a young person looking for a career of meaning and purpose, what would you tell them? speaker-0: Please stay true to self and continue to drive. Yes. speaker-1: Very cool. Very cool. Gabby, ⁓ it's been a really great episode. Thank you so much for being on the show. Thank you for your your really insightful, you know, comments, for sharing your career trajectory with us, for talking about leadership, for talking about, you know, the uncertain road of of career progression, because I think this is something that's really top of mind to a lot of people. It's been super interesting. And ⁓ and folks, you know, if if you've learned anything this in this episode, if you found anything interesting. speaker-0: We enjoyed it. speaker-1: Leave us some feedback in the comments. Ask some questions. Leave us a like. Share this with somebody who could benefit from the episode. And don't forget to subscribe to the show, which is dropping new episodes every single Thursday, you know, around 5 a.m. Eastern Standard Time. And ⁓ that's it from us here at Mork Unfiltered. We will see you on the next episode. Thank you for tuning in. Thank you so much, Gami, for being here. speaker-0: Thank you, appreciate it.