Latest / China Considered / From Tiananmen to Hong Kong: Generations of Resistance with Rowena He | China Considered | Hoover Institution

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From Tiananmen to Hong Kong: Generations of Resistance with Rowena He | China Considered | Hoover Institution · China Considered

• 0:07
  - Welcome to China.
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  Considered a podcast that brings fresh insight
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  and informed discussion to one
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  of the most consequential issues of our time,
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  how China's changing and changing the world.
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  I'm Liz Economy, Hargrove senior fellow
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  and co-director of the program on the us, China,
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  and the world at the Hoover Institution at
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  Stanford University.
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  Today, I'm delighted to welcome Dr. Rowena He.
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  She's my colleague here at the Hoover Institution
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  and one of the world's leading scholars on human
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  rights issues in China.
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  She's also the author of the acclaimed 2014 book,
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  Tiananmen Exiles, voices of the Struggle
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  for Democracy in China, which was also named as one
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  of the Asia Society's top five China books.
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  Welcome, Ruen. It's great to have you with us.
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  - Thank you so much, Liz, for the opportunity
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  to speak on China.
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  Consider, I've been listening to this for so long,
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  so finally, I'm glad to be part of this.
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  - Well, it's, it's really just a great pleasure
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  for us to have you on.
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  So let me start by taking you quite a number
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  of years back to 1989 to the spring in Guandong,
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  where you were still a high school student,
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  but ended up participating in the sort of demonstrations,
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  the political demonstrations that had spread across China.
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  And you wrote at the time,
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  or you've written, I shouldn't say at the time,
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  but you've written since then that you took
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  to the streets not because of hatred and despair be, but
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  because of love and hope.
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  Can you talk a little bit about what you meant
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  and what you felt at that moment
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  and what propelled you actually to go and demonstrate?
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  - Yeah, that's a great question, Lisa.
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  I, I, I think that
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  that sentiment was not just shared by myself.
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  I think it was shared not only even in the,
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  among the gentleman generation,
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  but among many other peoples.
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  Later I realized that we, you know, my, my generation is
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  what people now call the Chaman generation.
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  We were born during, towards the end
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  of ma cultural revolution, and,
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  and we grew up in Don's open and reform.
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  So that was a time of searching, opening,
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  and of course, we were told that that was, you know, we,
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  we were going to have a different China opening up and,
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  and things like that.
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  So, and even those songs that we sang in the old times,
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  like Glory belongs to the generation of the 1980s.
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  So we were still materially deprived.
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  I, I still remember, we barely have any, like, for example,
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  as a young girl, I barely have any, when I was a kid,
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  there was no those like stuffed
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  animals that, things like that.
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  And I, I really wanted to have those when I saw it
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  from my neighbor's family and, and not like nice jazz
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  and that kind of thing, but people's
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  faces were full of hope.
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  We, we sensed that we were,
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  and later I, I organized a gentleman conference at Harvard,
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  and many of the journalists at the conference when they
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  started, they would say that we would not forget the spring
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  of 1989 and via, or class of 1989.
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  So I think that sentiment
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  of idealism was widely shared.
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  And even as a high school student, we felt that way.
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  - So when you went to the demonstrations, I mean,
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  were you thinking about economic opportunity
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  or were you thinking about political openness?
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  I mean, again, sort of, I'm just trying to understand
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  what motivated you at the moment.
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  - Yeah, we, we grew up
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  with this revolutionary stories in our old time that we,
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  we think that we could make a difference.
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  We could contribute to the country.
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  We, we could make China a better place.
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  And the theme of sacrifice
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  and idealism was throughout our education of those,
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  you know, revolutionary movies and, and, and stories.
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  And, and at the same time, China was opening up, right?
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  So we, we learned these ideas about liberty and democracy.
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  I think, of course now I can articulate very clearly,
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  but at that time I, I don't think
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  that it was very clear in my mind.
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  And of course, as a scholar now, I, I could
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  I know understand
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  that even in the 1980s there was all these tensions
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  between the left and the right
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  and also this crack down your spiritual,
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  anti spiritual pollution, anti spiritual liberalization.
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  So all these campaigns going on as well.
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  So it's not like a, a clear cut, right? Opening up.
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  And, and,
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  and for those of us who grew up in the 1980s, we,
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  we knew nothing about the democracy war, 1979, right?
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  The sentence of the dissident.
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  And likewise, after Ian
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  and many of the younger generation,
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  they knew nothing about the struggles of my generation.
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  So that generational discontinuity was very obvious.
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  But at that time, when I took to the street, I, I,
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  I felt a sense of hope, right?
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  We, we were still using that long lived thing in China.
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  In China, right? Long lived,
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  because the full is long lived Chairman Mao,
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  and long sudden we were shouting long lived lip democracy,
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  long lived freedom, right?
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  So, so that, that was the, the kind
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  of sentiments we felt in 1989 when I got to Hong Kong.
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  Later I met many of the, my colleagues
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  of my generation in Hong Kong,
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  and I was surprised to, to find out
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  that they felt exactly the same,
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  that they felt China was helpful.
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  And even when I was teaching at Harvard,
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  my mentors like Professor Robert Fargo, they were,
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  I think they were all sharing with me in 1989.
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  They really thought, this is the, this is the turning point.
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  So it's multi-generational.
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  - Yeah. So obviously there was the, the crackdown in 1989,
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  and then you were in college in the early 1990s.
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  So what was your thinking then around, you know,
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  what had transpired in 1989
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  and how did that shape, you know,
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  what you eventually ended up doing?
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  So did like, again, sort of what was, when did you realize
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  that the Tiananmen experience, or you weren't in Tiananmen,
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  but in Guandong nonetheless, the whole sort of set
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  of demonstrations, when did you realize
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  that this experience would ultimately come
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  to define your life's work?
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  I,
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  - That's, that's another great question.
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  I, I often think about that
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  and people even ask me if I regret it for doing this,
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  because now that with all the personal
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  and professional prices that I'm, I'm paying
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  for studying the topic.
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  I think even as early as 1989 that the day
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  after the massacre, I went back to my high school.
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  I was wearing a black arm, bang,
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  the Chinese way of mourning.
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  And I, I, my, my teacher came over and,
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  and told me that I have to remove that,
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  otherwise, no one can put protect me from now on.
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  No one can protect from now on.
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  And I, I think that was a moment it stick in my mind.
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  And al I also thought about my father's and his friends.
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  When Ma died, he closed all the doors and windows
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  and they were drinking wine.
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  They seemed so happy.
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  And the next morning when they took me
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  to the puppet memorial, they were so sad
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  and everybody was crying.
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  And as a little girl, I was confused
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  by the adult contrasting facial expression.
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  And then that moment actually reminding me, so we were
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  so sad in private after the massacre,
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  but outside it was celebration of a crackdown
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  of a counter-revolution, right?
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  It was a celebration.
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  So, and I, I removed the black arm bank
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  and I, I I, I think that
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  for two generations we were not allowed
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  to express the basic human feelings of sorrow and joy.
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  I I think that was very profound in retrospect in many years
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  later, of course, very soon, I, I shut up, right?
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  So I, I stopped talking about it
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  because I didn't want to go to jail.
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  I didn't want to be expelled from school.
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  I still want to be a go to college.
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  So I think like many of my generation in 1989,
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  and of course my father's generation too, we learned
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  to lie in order to survive.
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  So that was on the back of my mind.
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  And when I was in college starting, I, I should say that
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  organizations like Lot Voice of America,
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  I remember the first anniversary of Ian Leman,
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  I was in my dorm,
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  or the girls, you know, not everyone knew about Ian men,
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  not everyone knew what what had happened.
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  And, but a few of us,
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  we were holding the tiny little radio in our hands with,
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  even with all the interference of the signal,
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  we were listening to VOA and Voice of America.
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  And then we realize, oh my God,
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  like the word is still remembering.
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  Because we kept wonder like, do people know
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  what happened to us?
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  Are they, are they still carrying on? Are we being dropped?
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  Right? So those are the questions when you were in darkness,
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  you wanted to know, and, and,
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  and those were the only like light we saw in darkness
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  that kept me going
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  and make me realize that we were not alone.
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  And of course, after college
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  to this jump fast, fast forward, right?
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  So after, when, you know, after 1992, you know, sudden tour
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  and, and it's all about you, you keep your mouth shut, you,
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  you make money any way you like, you'll be successful.
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  So I was very successful in the banking
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  and financial industry for few years.
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  I, I started to make a lot of money
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  and I, I started
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  to live a much better life than my intellectual parents.
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  But I think on the back of my mind that, that
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  that backless in 1989 on the day of the massacre,
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  when when overnight, right?
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  You, you, you, you saw your peers being slapped, it,
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  the blood crack down.
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  It, it was not something you can easily get rid of.
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  So then I, I, I tried to leave
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  and I didn't know what, how to,
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  but when Canada has this immigration policy,
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  and then I apply, and then I,
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  I basically carry two suitcases as a new immigrant to Canada
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  with nothing but hope.
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  And that's how I, I, I studied my, my first, you know,
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  few years of immigration life,
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  and I later, I tried to apply for graduate school and, and,
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  and I think that, okay, MBA, right?
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  I could make a lot of money.
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  And that's what everybody was telling me.
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  And it was tempting, right?
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  As a new immigrant, I worked so many jobs.
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  I can't even remember day jobs,
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  night jobs, seven days a week.
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  But, but, but I think that that idea that I want
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  to speak out and, and, and tell and,
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  and to, to, to get justice, it's very, it's very raw
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  inside me, not now I can articulate.
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  So that's why I, I applied for graduate school
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  and then I started my master and PhD.
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  I, I focus on chinamen.
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  - So I'm just curious, when you were a banker in, in China,
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  did you have a circle of friends of, of, you know,
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  probably friends, not merely acquaintances
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  or people in your family that still discussed Chien?
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  I mean, you mentioned, you know, sort
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  of holding onto the radio when you were in college,
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  but, you know, was, did you just talk,
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  just shut down about what had happened?
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  Or was there still an ongoing quiet conversation
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  among the people that you trusted?
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  - Yes, always.
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  I think on the surface, like Tianmen seemed to be so remote,
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  especially during the writing China period, right?
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  You witness all of this too, in,
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  in all your publications list.
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  You talk about it eloquently.
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  But I, I think that at that time, we, we still,
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  every anniversary, for example, I would be hiding in some
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  of my friends, pray some of them from Beijing, some
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  of them from other provinces,
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  and then they would pull out the things they hide,
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  they hit under their bed, right?
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  That's something from the square.
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  And they will share stories.
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  And, and we, we never lost,
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  we were lighting candles secretly of, and,
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  and that's also why the candlelights in Victoria,
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  part in China, in Hong Kong were so important to us
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  because no matter
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  what the government told us, we tell what they said.
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  We knew that in Hong Kong, there were hundreds
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  and thousands of people that filled up the six
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  of soccer film every year, every single year, men
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  and women, kids
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  and older people, whoever they are,
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  they would just be there on time.
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  That was a, a, a commitment for truth
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  and justice for the victims.
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  So we, we like candles all the time, secretly every year.
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  And there were discussions and,
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  and about, of course, there was a, a, a, a time of despair.
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  So later I became very critical of Chinese intellectuals
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  of the silence for a long time.
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  And thinking that why did people do more?
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  Why, why can't we just speak?
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  How, why can't we just do more?
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  But, but of course, later we can talk,
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  we can share about my experience in Hong Kong,
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  I IAnd. Right? Or maybe
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  - You began to appreciate why they didn't, right?
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  Yes. But, but let's, but let's go to Hong Kong
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  because in 2019, you know,
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  right when the pro-democracy protests were occurring,
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  you took a job teaching at the Chinese University
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  of, of Hong Kong.
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  And I'm, I'm curious, a why did you decide to take
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  that position, right?
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  Leave the sort of safety and the ease of Canada
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  and the United States and move to Hong Kong,
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  and what were your students like, right?
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  And did they see parallels between 2019
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  and what they were doing in 1989?
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  So did they draw that connection,
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  or did you help them draw that connection?
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  - Hmm. Yeah. So I, I love the questions.
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  So, and I, I, I actually was
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  offered the position in 2018
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  because when I was in Hong Kong, I was questioned by some
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  of the pro Beijing people that,
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  because later they even crucify me in the one way,
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  a newspaper saying that I was sent by the American
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  government to poison the minds of the Hong Kong students
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  during the, the, the regions
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  and unprecedented social movement.
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  And I, I actually got the offer 2018,
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  but I was accepted as a fellow at IAS Institute
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  for French Studies at Princeton.
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  So I, I decided that I would finish the fellowship,
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  and I know that people, I wanted to be like,
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  what people thought about me as being courageous
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  and go to Hong Kong and decided to go to Hong Kong.
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  But that was not a, a clear position.
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  I was actually terrified.
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  So I, I can, I can tell you why I went to Hong Kong.
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  It was more personal.
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  My, I, I grew up with my grandmother.
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  When my parents were sent away
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  during the cultural revolution, they were in the mountains.
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  And so I was very close with my grandmother
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  and all those, I, when I started it.
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  And I think the most difficult thing was not about,
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  you know, rising China, no funding opportunities,
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  no conference opportunities,
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  and people try to stay away from you sometimes
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  because they didn't want to get into trouble
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  and they didn't want, need the money
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  from the Chinese students.
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  So all those are familiar with,
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  but for me, the most difficult thing has always been
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  that Vietnam, I could not be able to, I I did,
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  I couldn't just like other people go home and go home.
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  Ah, so I missed my grandmother so badly.
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  And before six or five, seven years
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  before she died, I got a chance to see her when I went
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  for conference in Hong Kong.
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  And she has been in her sick bath and, and,
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  and I, the, the final time I talked to her,
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  that was six years before she died, I, I make her promise me
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  to leave on and continue
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  and wait for me to go home and come back.
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  And I said, I would come back to see you.
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  I, I touch her at the time.
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  I, I said that I would come back and, and,
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  and she was in her sick bag.
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  She was very sick for six, almost seven years.
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  And, and everyone was saying, I,
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  we don't understand why you were mother, hold on.
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  Like it make, they didn't put any, any machine on her,
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  but she just whole un un until she passed away on
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  that year 20 s,
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  16 or 17, I couldn't remember then that was the year that I,
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  I, I, I, but before Thanksgiving,
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  and that was the only time if you asked me that,
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  I regretted for doing Ian.
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  I I wanted to be closer to home.
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  And I was even thinking that if I'm too far away from home,
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  she would never be able to find me again in the middle
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  of nowhere in the United States.
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  So then I applied for the position in Hong Kong
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  on the Chinese Christmas Eve, and I was so homesick.
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  So that was my long story, my, my personal reason to decide
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  to go back to Hong Kong.
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  It just so happened 2019, and of course
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  before I went, I signed a power attorney
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  before I got on the plane at, at Princeton new airport,
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  and I sent it to Jerry Cohen,
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  and I saw jury as my lawyer if anything happened,
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  if I got disappear, if they said I committed suicide, that's
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  what happened to all the human rights lawyers, as you know.
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  And if I do a, a TV confession saying that, you know,
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  everything I did was a lie, all of those,
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  then that's not true.
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  And I said, I would like to have help from jury
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  to get legal help.
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  So signing that thing, and then I sent it out,
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  and then I went to the airport with my suitcases,
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  and that was my, my pre Hong Kong.
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  And of course, the moment I arrived,
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  it was the unprecedented social movement on the ground.
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  And the first day I arrived, the first week I arrived,
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  my students knocked at my door
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  and they said, professor Hu, we have a,
• 17:46
  a gathering on campus talking about
• 17:48
  what historians history person, that's how they come
• 17:52
  before the Hong Kong history majors.
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  Would you join us?
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  I, I, I hesitated for a minute, Liz,
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  because, you know, I, I wasn't sure what's gonna happen,
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  and I, I, I just feel that I'm both an insider and outsider.
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  But, but immediately my 1989 row itself came
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  up and feel that I need to support this young people
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  for the same ideal that we had in 1989.
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  So, so we started, we, we started the,
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  the long journey in the, in the, the three years.
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  So we, you know, we, they very often, they came
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  to my apartment, right?
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  They were, we, we eat together.
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  They were sitting on my apartment floor
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  until 3:00 AM 4:00 AM in the morning.
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  And if they go for protest in the early days, I,
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  I set up a WhatsApp
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  because when I got to Hong Kong,
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  I didn't have any social media.
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  And my students said, if you call us
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  and text us, we, we, no one would call you back.
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  We use WhatsApp. And, and, and later they use signal.
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  So I, I make sure everyone got home before I, I went to bed.
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  So that was, that was the, the, the kind
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  of connection that we built.
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  And to answer your question about comparison
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  of 19 89, 20 19, we did not just compare
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  1989, we went beyond, right?
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  We, we studied A PRC history,
• 19:11
  we looked at the Yana ratification campaign,
• 19:14
  we look at the anti-racist campaign,
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  we look at the cultural revolution,
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  and I said that this is exactly the same regime
• 19:20
  that you are doing life right now, right now.
• 19:23
  So I think that actually that kind of interactions and, and,
• 19:27
  and the, the, the sharings and,
• 19:29
  and communications was crucial when the students were
• 19:34
  making decisions, especially during the campus,
• 19:37
  standoff happened to place in my campus when the police was
• 19:41
  outside and whether they should leave or not.
• 19:43
  And they, they told me, actually, I remember they told me,
• 19:46
  marina, don't come back.
• 19:47
  We are determined. We are ready to die.
• 19:50
  And then I said, you're not ready. You are not going to die.
• 19:53
  So I carry my, my, my harry backpack
• 19:56
  with like a meatball, instant noodles and waters.
• 20:01
  And at that time, all this,
• 20:02
  all the rows were already been banned.
• 20:03
  And I, I walked the highway actually
• 20:06
  because there was no more car allowed.
• 20:08
  And I walked all the highway, I walked back
• 20:11
  and they were crying, and I was crying
• 20:13
  after hours of walking when I finally get together
• 20:15
  with the students and, and they said, we are ready to die.
• 20:19
  We are going to sacrifice like the students in 1989.
• 20:23
  And I said that I, I I, I gave my life for justice
• 20:28
  for the tam mothers, and I still cannot get it.
• 20:31
  What do you want me to tell your dad
• 20:33
  and your mom tomorrow if any of you die?
• 20:37
  And, and we started to cry together.
• 20:39
  But, but I still think about those moments
• 20:41
  that we study in classrooms,
• 20:43
  and we talk about the anti-racist campaign,
• 20:46
  people really to survive.
• 20:47
  And we are going to all live together
• 20:50
  and we are going to do more than just die today.
• 20:53
  So, so there were many of those stories.
• 20:55
  Lisa, I can go on and on.
• 20:57
  - So, Rina, I'm, I'm curious, as, as you were speaking,
• 21:00
  I was thinking to myself, like,
• 21:02
  how did you think it would all turn out?
• 21:05
  I mean, you'd had the experience of 1989.
• 21:07
  You were clearly both inspired by your students,
• 21:12
  but also concerned, very concerned for their welfare.
• 21:16
  Did you see a potential positive outcome from these
• 21:20
  protests different from what happened in 1989?
• 21:25
  Or did you always have a sort of shadow of foreboding,
• 21:28
  you know, over, over your head?
• 21:31
  - Yeah, I talked to my students about this in
• 21:33
  the first class.
• 21:34
  I, I, I taught in Hong Kong.
• 21:37
  So that was a class boycott week,
• 21:40
  and they were not supposed to come to class.
• 21:42
  - Wait, that was your first week? Yes.
• 21:44
  The class boycott? Yes, yes,
• 21:46
  - Yes.
• 21:47
  That's my first class in Hong Kong.
• 21:48
  And I talk about what you asked me in that class,
• 21:52
  and of course, I, I I, I try not to be imposing.
• 21:55
  So first of all, I joined it event on, on my campus,
• 21:59
  and then I told my students, I fully understand
• 22:02
  what you've been through and how you're feeling.
• 22:03
  Now. I support, I understand that you want
• 22:06
  to have a class boycott class week,
• 22:08
  and I hope that you boycott class, but not boycott learning.
• 22:13
  I still think that it's important that you come to our class
• 22:16
  so that you know what you're dealing with.
• 22:19
  And to my surprise, not only my student came, many
• 22:23
  of the alumni came, we didn't have enough seats
• 22:26
  and chairs in my classroom.
• 22:27
  They have to go to another classroom to grab the chairs.
• 22:30
  That was the class boycott week.
• 22:32
  And, and I started to share with them my experience.
• 22:35
  And I, I think all my students can testify.
• 22:38
  I said that if things continue very soon,
• 22:43
  we would not be able to do what we are doing now.
• 22:46
  We would lose our space and,
• 22:48
  and the crackdown would come in,
• 22:50
  and they have every reason to come in
• 22:52
  and to destroy Hong Kong.
• 22:54
  And that's what I said. So yes, the answer is, I I,
• 22:57
  I anticipated this from day one.
• 23:00
  I, I think in 1989, if you want to make a comparison,
• 23:03
  the students like us, we were very naive.
• 23:06
  We thought we were children of the CCP,
• 23:09
  and they're not going to crackdown.
• 23:11
  Even though we knew about the, the, the 1976 when joined,
• 23:14
  I die and the crackdown and,
• 23:16
  and the sue like April 5th
• 23:21
  crackdown in Tiananmen Square.
• 23:22
  But we, we still did not anticipate any of those,
• 23:26
  like June 4th, right?
• 23:29
  A hundred thousand Army soldiers.
• 23:31
  It with 80 47
• 23:33
  and tanks firing on, on announced surveillance.
• 23:37
  Right? So, so, so, but in 19
• 23:40
  and in 2019, I, I think that that was the same thing, right?
• 23:45
  So we were naive,
• 23:46
  and then the student in Hong Kong, they never had any,
• 23:48
  any illusion of the CCP.
• 23:50
  However, they were also naive in their own way, meaning
• 23:54
  they have the strategy about destroying Hong Kong.
• 23:57
  They think that, okay, Hong Kong is so important
• 23:59
  as economic, as center, right?
• 24:01
  So if we destroy Hong Kong, it,
• 24:03
  Hong Kong destroyed the CCP would be very upset.
• 24:06
  They they would, they would. That's what they care.
• 24:08
  So that's the capitalist kids in Hong Kong.
• 24:10
  That's their upbringing. That's
• 24:11
  what they thought is important.
• 24:13
  But, but I think by the end of the day,
• 24:15
  the C CCP only care about one thing that's maintaining power
• 24:19
  and keeping their power.
• 24:20
  It really doesn't matter whether you are loyal kids or,
• 24:23
  or you, you, you, you have a, a economic center. So,
• 24:27
  - Right.
• 24:28
  I, I, I think that's a really important point.
• 24:30
  I, I think it was a mistake.
• 24:32
  I, I believe that the US government also made somehow when,
• 24:36
  you know, they passed the Hong Kong Human Rights
• 24:38
  and Democracy Act in Congress, which, you know,
• 24:41
  was well intentioned, right?
• 24:42
  Basically saying that if the, you know, CCP cracked down
• 24:48
  in Hong Kong, that Hong Kong would lose its special
• 24:50
  economic status.
• 24:52
  I think that's just a fundamental misunderstanding
• 24:54
  as you suggest of what the priority really is
• 24:57
  for the Chinese Communist Party.
• 25:00
  It's not to have Hong Kong, you know, serve
• 25:02
  as an economic model
• 25:03
  of the Hong Kong stock exchange or anything like that.
• 25:06
  It's about political control, right?
• 25:09
  And ensuring that Hong Kong is politically aligned
• 25:12
  with the interests of the mainland. Yes,
• 25:16
  - It was very difficult to be on the ground when you are,
• 25:20
  you, you are a human being when you are a teacher,
• 25:22
  when you're a historian, and when history's in motion,
• 25:26
  and then you watch everything, you know, going through,
• 25:28
  you want to show your support
• 25:29
  and understanding to the,
• 25:30
  to the younger generation of course.
• 25:32
  And not trying to just tell them that, oh,
• 25:34
  what you're doing is useless.
• 25:35
  Right? So, but it's also very,
• 25:37
  and I also try to tell my students, I said, no matter
• 25:40
  what the bottom line is, even
• 25:42
  after the imposing of the national security law, I said,
• 25:45
  I would not censor myself in my classroom.
• 25:48
  There was a reporting system already,
• 25:49
  and there was all of those.
• 25:51
  So I still try to calculate that kind
• 25:53
  of community engagement and, and,
• 25:55
  and trust that actually we, we continue up to today,
• 25:59
  and I was attacked.
• 26:00
  I was being criticized.
• 26:02
  And at one point, you, you saw this not only, you know,
• 26:05
  in many other countries now, nowadays, right?
• 26:07
  The deeply divided the society.
• 26:09
  So the, the, the radical on both sides, people brutalize
• 26:12
  and radicalize each other,
• 26:13
  and there was no more conversation.
• 26:15
  So I insisted that if you come to my classroom,
• 26:18
  like from Taiwan, from Hong Kong, from mainland,
• 26:20
  from anywhere, let's sit down and talk.
• 26:23
  And if you cannot talk, come to my house, come
• 26:26
  to my apartment, let's sit and talk
• 26:28
  and rebuild that kind of communities through many
• 26:32
  of the activities.
• 26:33
  We went to the Tianmen Museum and,
• 26:36
  and we, we just chat in the evenings,
• 26:38
  and sometimes I even, I just, we have the,
• 26:41
  we call it the girls nights, right?
• 26:42
  So we only if the girls, we, we sit on the floor
• 26:45
  and talking about, and then the maintenance students started
• 26:48
  to share that when they share what they learn in my class
• 26:51
  with their boyfriend in, in China,
• 26:53
  and then they say, oh, you should drop her class, you know,
• 26:55
  she's trying to brainwash you and that kind of thing.
• 26:57
  And so, so that was beyond just a teaching
• 27:01
  inside the classroom.
• 27:02
  So it is, we lived through the history, right?
• 27:06
  When there's, for example, when the statue of the goddess
• 27:08
  of Democracy, that was a copy right?
• 27:14
  In, in, at entrance of my university.
• 27:16
  So in 1989, I watch on tv, right?
• 27:20
  How the tank came in and,
• 27:22
  and crashed that in Tiananmen Square, right?
• 27:24
  So that's my generation's longing for,
• 27:28
  for we want to have something.
• 27:29
  The United States have this, the Statue of Liberty.
• 27:32
  And then we had, we have this statue of the goddess
• 27:34
  of democracy, and they crash it once when I
• 27:37
  was 17 years old.
• 27:39
  And then when I was in middle aged woman in,
• 27:42
  at my own campus in front of my eyes, they took it away.
• 27:46
  2021.
• 27:47
  So, so, so when that happened, when, when he, you, you,
• 27:51
  I'm supposed to be a historian, I'm supposed
• 27:53
  to document history, and,
• 27:55
  and when you watch his history being erased in front
• 27:58
  of your face when you watched your students were so scared.
• 28:01
  And then I have to eventually,
• 28:02
  before I left, I I, I, I strapped
• 28:04
  and burned all their final papers before I left.
• 28:08
  And, and so many students came as a team to help me
• 28:11
  to destroy the papers.
• 28:13
  It it's very painful to go through all of this, but,
• 28:17
  but that give me, even, make me even more determined
• 28:20
  to keep the history and the memory alive.
• 28:23
  - Yeah. So in 2023,
• 28:29
  Hong Kong authorities denied you, your visa renewal
• 28:33
  and the Chinese University
• 28:35
  of Hong Kong terminated your contract.
• 28:37
  Did this come as a surprise to you,
• 28:39
  or were you fully expecting it?
• 28:41
  I mean, to be completely frank, I am surprised
• 28:45
  that the Chinese University of Hong Kong lets you in in 2019
• 28:49
  to begin with at some level, right?
• 28:52
  But, but were you surprised at this moment,
• 28:54
  or did you, did you know that this was coming?
• 28:57
  - I even in 2019,
• 29:01
  you were not the only person who was surprised.
• 29:04
  Right? I was surprised myself
• 29:05
  because I remember going to campers to give that talk,
• 29:10
  and I was wondering, should I pretend
• 29:12
  to be someone else when I, my, all my work was out there.
• 29:17
  So I remember I was talking to all my mentors at that time,
• 29:20
  and they said, maybe you should just give a, you know,
• 29:22
  a talk not about your work.
• 29:24
  And, and I said that, like, how can you,
• 29:26
  how is it going to work?
• 29:28
  But yes, 2023.
• 29:31
  So I, I knew that was coming because
• 29:34
  before I left Hong Kong
• 29:36
  for the National Humanities Center Fellowship, I was not
• 29:40
  given a renew visa to go back.
• 29:46
  And I actually was told that I could not leave Hong Kong.
• 29:49
  That was when I was terrified. Wow. 2022.
• 29:55
  Yeah. At least I can openly talk about so many
• 29:57
  of these things now.
• 29:58
  But for many years I was so scared, you know, that I,
• 30:01
  I checked just like everyone else, right?
• 30:03
  So I try not to talk about,
• 30:06
  especially this kind of personal thing.
• 30:08
  So I was told that I could not leave Hong Kong
• 30:11
  - Yeah.
• 30:12
  - Without a new visa. So that was the most terrifying thing.
• 30:16
  And my students were terrified,
• 30:18
  and they were asking for information about what I teach.
• 30:23
  I need to submit materials.
• 30:25
  And I remember I was asked, there's a template
• 30:29
  of many pagers, template
• 30:31
  and asking questions, I think from my cv, for example,
• 30:36
  I think they asked what was Harvard University
• 30:41
  who funded Harvard University.
• 30:42
  So they, they got all these things from my cv,
• 30:45
  what was IAS Princeton, right?
• 30:47
  Who unfunded IAS Princeton.
• 30:49
  So, so it was,
• 30:52
  and yeah, so it was a very strange thing, right?
• 30:56
  So they basically ask you, so I just, my students helped me
• 30:59
  to print out Harvard University,
• 31:01
  you know, what's Harvard University?
• 31:03
  So we put it in a PDF file.
• 31:05
  And, and then, and then we submitted all those things,
• 31:08
  and there were questions that I wasn't sure.
• 31:09
  So at that time, I was asking help from my friends in NGOs
• 31:15
  in the United States.
• 31:16
  And I also start, you know, in, I'm not sure if you know
• 31:19
  that in studying 2019, most of us who, who felt
• 31:22
  that we would get into trouble,
• 31:23
  especially when my colleagues were being arrested
• 31:25
  and things like that, we all have a lawyer.
• 31:28
  So I had a lawyer in Hong Kong,
• 31:30
  and I, I-I-I-I-I, I asked about how to write a wheel,
• 31:35
  for example, if I disappear, what
• 31:38
  to do and things like that.
• 31:39
  And so also my, you know, mentors and friends,
• 31:42
  and especially after the two micros
• 31:44
  of the Canadian micros were being taken away,
• 31:47
  and everyone was telling me, you, you, it's time
• 31:49
  to come back, Rowina.
• 31:51
  And I don't understand why least,
• 31:53
  but at that time, I really feel that I'm, I'm just like,
• 31:56
  my students refuse to leave the campus.
• 31:57
  During the campus standoff.
• 31:59
  I was so determined to stay in Hong Kong.
• 32:02
  I felt that I could not leave my, my, my students
• 32:05
  and my campus now.
• 32:07
  So it is, is, is now in retrospect, I didn't know why I felt
• 32:11
  that way, but that's how I felt at the time.
• 32:13
  I didn't want to leave. So I had the lawyers,
• 32:16
  I signed the lawyers, and,
• 32:17
  and I, I don't think I should name him the, the person
• 32:21
  because his no, no profile person as well.
• 32:24
  So, but, but eventually we decided that this is a good thing
• 32:27
  to do because that would be the a privilege thing.
• 32:30
  So whatever would be discussed would not have
• 32:32
  to be revealed later.
• 32:34
  So, so I, I, I, I wasn't sure if I could leave
• 32:39
  until I was told that I would be, if I was allowed to leave,
• 32:44
  I would be given a lter.
• 32:45
  And without the lter, I would not be allowed to leave.
• 32:48
  So I was actually taken to a back room at the airport
• 32:54
  at the time, and all my students
• 32:56
  and my colleagues were waiting outside,
• 32:58
  and I was just terrified in the room,
• 33:02
  but I still had my phone.
• 33:03
  And they were testing on signal,
• 33:05
  everybody ding, ding, ding, ding, ding.
• 33:07
  And, and I turned it off.
• 33:08
  And they, they, they were all saying to Arina,
• 33:10
  we would not leave the airport until your body, your flight.
• 33:14
  So just minutes before my, my flight took off,
• 33:18
  I was sent away.
• 33:19
  And I remember, I knew that I could not, if I run,
• 33:23
  I would not be able to make it to the gate.
• 33:25
  So there was those airport cart they were driving by
• 33:29
  and they said, if I pay how much Hong Kong dollars,
• 33:32
  they would take me to the gate.
• 33:35
  That good thing about ki I just,
• 33:38
  - I don't think I've ever heard of that, but that's
• 33:39
  - Good.
• 33:40
  Yeah. Yeah. I jumped me in
• 33:41
  and I, I said like, I just gave the money
• 33:43
  and I got to the gate and, and,
• 33:46
  and I, I think actually those people
• 33:48
  who question me in the room, I think they were very nice
• 33:51
  because they called the gate to tell them that I was coming.
• 33:54
  So they knew they, they should wait for me.
• 33:56
  So I got to the gate,
• 33:57
  and then they, they just got me into the,
• 34:01
  I I bought it, the plane.
• 34:02
  And then before I sat down, the gate just closed
• 34:05
  behind my back.
• 34:06
  And I remember that.
• 34:07
  And then the students, my student, I, I tested, I said,
• 34:10
  I, I just bought it.
• 34:11
  And they said, hooray and gray and blah, blah.
• 34:13
  And then my colleague said, Rowena, let's make a movie,
• 34:16
  a Hong Kong version of rush hours.
• 34:18
  - You, you know, I was just thinking
• 34:20
  that this sounds like a movie, actually.
• 34:21
  I'm, I'm sitting in, in suspense, you know,
• 34:24
  I don't think I would've felt safe
• 34:26
  until the plane actually took off, though.
• 34:28
  I, I, you know, even getting on the plane
• 34:29
  and sitting down, I feel like I'm living, you know,
• 34:32
  through this with you right now.
• 34:34
  I think until it was wheels up, I,
• 34:36
  I still would've been concerned that somebody would come
• 34:38
  and, and haul me off the plane.
• 34:41
  - Yeah, it, it's easy to talk about it now,
• 34:43
  but at the time it was, I was terrified.
• 34:45
  I I, people sometimes call me courageous
• 34:48
  or terror for doing Tian men and any of this.
• 34:50
  I, I, I, as my students, though,
• 34:52
  I was a very Timmy person, right?
• 34:53
  When the, you know, even at the Harvard time when the
• 34:55
  nationalist kids, they, they, they send me hey emails, they,
• 34:59
  they said they're going to gang rape me and all of those.
• 35:01
  I was just so scared to death.
• 35:03
  And I, I, I, I, I, I, I just, I was just terrified
• 35:07
  and, and order time.
• 35:08
  But, but if there's anything that kept me going that was,
• 35:11
  that's is exactly because of that fear.
• 35:14
  That fear that these future generations have to go through
• 35:17
  what I have been through.
• 35:18
  If there's anything that's out of the courage is my fear.
• 35:22
  - But that is perhaps the greatest
• 35:24
  definition of courage, right?
• 35:26
  Is to be able to stick to your beliefs
• 35:28
  and to act on them, even, you know, in the face of,
• 35:32
  you know, such threats and, and,
• 35:34
  and deep fear within yourself.
• 35:36
  I mean, to me, that's,
• 35:37
  that's the biggest sign of, of courage.
• 35:40
  And to that, I mean, you have been designated
• 35:43
  among the top 100 Chinese public intellectuals,
• 35:47
  you've testified, you know,
• 35:48
  before Congress, you know, certainly in China circles
• 35:53
  and even beyond, you are, you know, very well known
• 35:56
  for the work that you've done.
• 35:59
  Do you feel today
• 36:00
  as though this visibility gives you a greater
• 36:03
  sense of protection?
• 36:04
  Or do you think it makes you more vulnerable?
• 36:10
  - I it's a long process, right?
• 36:12
  I, I first came as a new immigrant, then as a grad student,
• 36:16
  then as a postdoc, then as the lecture at the bottom
• 36:19
  of the letter in, in, in,
• 36:21
  in some academics settings.
• 36:25
  I, I've been through all of this fear,
• 36:27
  just why often when I gave talks, I saw
• 36:31
  the organizers asked me to tell the, the students
• 36:34
  or the, even the scholars on campus when they came
• 36:37
  to the conference, I organized on gentleman,
• 36:39
  tell them, don't be scared.
• 36:40
  'cause they always used the newspapers
• 36:41
  to cover up their hat, right?
• 36:43
  So they, they would just cover up
• 36:45
  and, and wear mask and all.
• 36:46
  And then I, I said that, but I'm scared myself.
• 36:49
  How can I tell people not to be scared?
• 36:51
  The fear is so, so, so, so just, you know, just real, right?
• 36:55
  So even the most recent public
• 37:00
  panola ritual that I attended at Berkeley last month,
• 37:04
  after the Hong Kong fire, and, and, and,
• 37:07
  and it was organized
• 37:09
  by students from Hong Kong at Berkeley and Stanford.
• 37:14
  So they were, you know, passing around mask and,
• 37:17
  and there's only one student from Hong Kong.
• 37:20
  He, he went up to speak
• 37:21
  and he was covering up from, from bottom to top.
• 37:23
  So he was not even attending a Tian in vigil.
• 37:26
  It was just have a vigil for the fire.
• 37:29
  And they were so terrified.
• 37:30
  So that's why when I was asked to go up
• 37:33
  and speak, I felt that it's my turn.
• 37:36
  The Hong Kong people have been lighting candles for us
• 37:39
  for 30 years in Victoria Park.
• 37:41
  And it's my turn now to, to go up
• 37:45
  and speak for the Hong Kong people.
• 37:47
  And, and, and, and, and,
• 37:49
  and of course now the second pair of shoe has dropped
• 37:53
  talking about that.
• 37:54
  I, I I'm thinking about like the Hong Kong Democracy
• 37:57
  Alliance will be trial this month, January 22nd.
• 38:02
  Yeah. So my friend, like Albert Hall le and,
• 38:06
  and so they are going to be trial
• 38:08
  for organizing the candlelight ritual.
• 38:10
  So, so they were, they were, they were, they were accused,
• 38:13
  right, for collaborating with this anti-China foreign forces
• 38:16
  as if they would, they sell the country and China.
• 38:19
  But, but this is the second type of loyalty, right?
• 38:22
  If that, that's what I talk about, the betrayal
• 38:24
  of loyalty in the 1980s bin, the, the,
• 38:28
  the exile journalist, right?
• 38:30
  He, he had a very well-known article about the second
• 38:34
  kind of loyalty.
• 38:35
  So he asked a question, will a loyal citizen be allowed
• 38:38
  to criticize his government when, when the government is,
• 38:42
  is not doing its job?
• 38:44
  So that's the second type of loyalty.
• 38:45
  So, so I think these people in Hong Kong,
• 38:47
  they have been lighting the candles
• 38:49
  for us when we were so scared.
• 38:52
  And the month I, before I left,
• 38:55
  'cause I left the summer, so no,
• 38:56
  that's the last summer of Miami Hong Kong.
• 38:58
  I went to the court trial of the Hong Kong Deese Lion.
• 39:04
  And I remember, I, I, I got up very early in the morning,
• 39:07
  and then I went in, and then they, I,
• 39:12
  I watched my friends walk out.
• 39:13
  They, they used to be quite, you know, fatted and strong.
• 39:16
  And, and they, they all seem to have lost a lot of weight,
• 39:19
  all in gray hair.
• 39:21
  And, and I was on the sign of the, the freedom.
• 39:24
  And they were, they're now being, they're,
• 39:27
  they're supposed to be criminals.
• 39:28
  Being, being a child.
• 39:30
  And, and that switch of position
• 39:35
  of the fear and, and, and,
• 39:37
  and now it, it is, it's just, it, it's, I don't,
• 39:40
  I don't even have a word.
• 39:41
  So, so that's why I hope the international community would
• 39:45
  not drop this, people who have been carrying on the work
• 39:50
  to, to do this.
• 39:51
  And, and now when, to answer your question,
• 39:54
  the roundabout way, I have been through a long way.
• 39:58
  I don't think that being well known and
• 40:00
  and being no would give you
• 40:04
  additional protection.
• 40:06
  But, but it doesn't mean
• 40:09
  that international support is not important.
• 40:12
  I think it's extremely important.
• 40:13
  But from my own personal perspective, I have been
• 40:16
  through a lot of trying not to be seen, even in Hong Kong,
• 40:20
  especially in Hong Kong when I was an adult, right?
• 40:24
  You own, you need to cultivate your space.
• 40:26
  You need to protect your classroom.
• 40:28
  You need to protect your, your, your, your students who are,
• 40:31
  who are like your children, then that, that's, that's the,
• 40:34
  your responsibility to be invisible so that you,
• 40:38
  you can continue your work.
• 40:41
  And in that sense, I think we should not lose hope
• 40:44
  and we should not be despair about China's future,
• 40:47
  because the hope in China actually are those
• 40:52
  that you cannot see is invisible.
• 40:55
  But one day, when the chance come,
• 40:56
  when the opportunity come, just now in 1989, the 1980s,
• 40:59
  everyone said the kids when not only in just a marginal in
• 41:02
  dancing in topo, but, but,
• 41:05
  but eventually all of a sudden, overnight it started again.
• 41:09
  - Yeah. So that, so I wanna follow up on this point,
• 41:15
  you know, about the youth in China today, you know, they,
• 41:20
  they don't show signs of many signs
• 41:23
  of political activism aside from, you know, maybe
• 41:26
  during COVID, but we certainly don't see publicly anyway,
• 41:31
  the types of, you know, protests, the environment,
• 41:34
  for example, that we saw, you know, throughout the,
• 41:37
  you know, two thousands, up until 2011, where a lot
• 41:41
  of the youth, you know, were mobilized
• 41:43
  around various social issues
• 41:46
  and were out in the streets demonstrating not even just for,
• 41:49
  you know, human rights per se,
• 41:50
  but around a whole array of, you know,
• 41:53
  broader social concerns that they had.
• 41:56
  And sometimes I think, of course, they were linked also to,
• 41:59
  to issues around human rights.
• 42:00
  But we don't see that kind of movement.
• 42:02
  I think the re repressive apparatus in China is
• 42:05
  so much stronger today than it, than it was then.
• 42:09
  But, but you're saying it, it's invisible today.
• 42:12
  And, and certainly they face challenges, you know,
• 42:15
  youth unemployment anywhere between, you know, 18 to 23% is,
• 42:20
  you know, generally reported.
• 42:21
  You had the life flat movement, which is, you know,
• 42:23
  basically saying we're taking ourselves out of, you know,
• 42:26
  the economic competition out of, you know,
• 42:29
  this current system in, in some respects.
• 42:33
  But what do you see? Like, what would you look for?
• 42:36
  What would be the signs in your mind that
• 42:40
  there were ideas
• 42:42
  and sort of there was some sort
• 42:45
  of mobilization taking place beneath the surface?
• 42:50
  Or will we not see it?
• 42:51
  Will it just be one day it's going to,
• 42:53
  you know, burst forth?
• 42:56
  - Yeah, because everything now,
• 42:57
  you cannot just go to social media.
• 42:59
  You cannot shove slogans on the street.
• 43:01
  So it's hard to see what, what's happening, right?
• 43:03
  So that's also my, the what my, my, the book,
• 43:06
  the manuscript I'm working on is about,
• 43:08
  so I saw the white paper movement right
• 43:11
  after COVID, when, when, when the opening up,
• 43:13
  that was a turning point.
• 43:15
  That was the reconciliation of many generations, I think.
• 43:18
  'cause I've been through the immediate post 89 and,
• 43:21
  and you know, the CCP revised
• 43:23
  or the history textbooks, the page
• 43:25
  or the education, very elaborate.
• 43:27
  So at some point they produce a generation
• 43:30
  that cannot distinguish
• 43:31
  between the regime and the nation, right?
• 43:32
  And they perceived anyone who is critical of the regime
• 43:35
  as national traitors.
• 43:36
  And that's where the attacks against anyone like me
• 43:40
  who are critical of the regime was coming from.
• 43:42
  So, so that's when I started the nationalism project when I,
• 43:46
  when I was at Harvard and then at Princeton.
• 43:49
  But when, after Hong Kong,
• 43:51
  after COVID in the post COVID period, I,
• 43:54
  I saw this huge change among the younger generation
• 43:58
  because all of a sudden they experience themselves in
• 44:02
  their real life.
• 44:04
  What the government has been lying,
• 44:06
  there's a white paper about COVID, right?
• 44:09
  Published by the CCP and that, that's right
• 44:13
  before the white paper movement.
• 44:14
  So this younger generation, they saw, geez, this is not
• 44:18
  what we have been through,
• 44:19
  and what else have they been lying us?
• 44:21
  Right? I used the political socialization framework
• 44:23
  for all my work about the youth values and things like that.
• 44:26
  So, so you, you were socialized, political, socialized
• 44:29
  to believe in certain values
• 44:31
  and perspective until you've,
• 44:33
  you have this whatever incident that this socialize
• 44:37
  and resocialize you, and then you started to ask questions.
• 44:40
  It it's always associated with loss,
• 44:42
  psychological pain, of course.
• 44:45
  But, but then that's how I saw many of the students.
• 44:48
  At one point, after the passing, immediately
• 44:50
  after the passing of the national security law,
• 44:53
  I gave a talk on Zoom in Mandarin
• 44:59
  to a few hundred of Chinese students organized
• 45:02
  by maintenance students.
• 45:04
  I almost decided not to do it because that was right
• 45:07
  after the passing of the national School war.
• 45:09
  As I mentioned just now, I, I I I, I actually wanted
• 45:14
  to withdraw, actually, I, I, I agree.
• 45:16
  And then I said that maybe I shouldn't do it.
• 45:18
  This is too terrifying.
• 45:19
  I don't even know who would be on that.
• 45:20
  So for sure, I I, I felt like, okay.
• 45:25
  And that was the only time I spoke in Mandarin about
• 45:28
  Tiananmen to the, this large group of Chinese students.
• 45:32
  And, and after that they, they genuinely asked a lot
• 45:35
  of questions during q and a.
• 45:37
  And, and later they, they share with me how they felt.
• 45:40
  And they said that Professor Hu priest remember us.
• 45:44
  Like I was from, you know, I don't know how
• 45:47
  to translate like, you know, small cities, RC and science.
• 45:52
  - So very small cities, right? Second, third cities. Yeah.
• 45:55
  So were they, were they, I mean,
• 45:57
  how did they find out about your talk?
• 45:58
  How did this even That's the fact. Yeah, they have
• 46:00
  - Their own way of, they have the civil society,
• 46:03
  they have their, their their own way
• 46:05
  of connecting the social media.
• 46:06
  And they just find now,
• 46:08
  and of course I know they dissolved afterward, so
• 46:11
  I didn't even know who the people invited me.
• 46:14
  It's like a, it was so underground.
• 46:17
  So they, everything they were, so, they just, we get,
• 46:21
  we kind of signal group
• 46:23
  and they were connected to me
• 46:25
  by some other professors in Hong Kong.
• 46:28
  And after that, the, the group just
• 46:29
  dissolved the next morning.
• 46:31
  I don't know where they are, who they are, but, but,
• 46:34
  but that's what I meant.
• 46:35
  So you have all the students again
• 46:37
  and again, they, they were curious.
• 46:39
  They were intellectually, they wanted to find out.
• 46:42
  And they, I think many of them even will remember us,
• 46:45
  like professor who remember us in the future,
• 46:48
  if you feel discouraged, you feel
• 46:49
  that the Chinese youth are not there.
• 46:52
  And remember us, there were, there were many of,
• 46:55
  we cannot speak out,
• 46:56
  but we are here, we are here with you together.
• 46:59
  So I think it was those that kind of incidents that I saw
• 47:03
  cross generation, not just one generation that keep me going
• 47:07
  and not just in one place in, in everywhere.
• 47:10
  And not just Chinese,
• 47:12
  but also Chinese people in diaspora,
• 47:15
  Hong Kong, people in diaspora.
• 47:16
  And now the many of the younger generation
• 47:19
  who are now in the uk, in Canada.
• 47:21
  And, and in Canada they have the, the,
• 47:23
  the, what's that called?
• 47:25
  The light bulb project.
• 47:27
  So the, the younger generation could come over.
• 47:29
  So it is not,
• 47:33
  it feels like they always that end game, right?
• 47:35
  Where student like to say, game over end game.
• 47:38
  And, and I said that the game would not
• 47:40
  end until we gave out.
• 47:42
  - So I almost want to end end our discussion on that note.
• 47:45
  But, but let me just ask you, you know, what,
• 47:49
  what about the role of the international community and,
• 47:53
  and putting aside even the sort of the Chinese diaspora,
• 47:59
  what role, you know, should the US government, for example,
• 48:02
  play, if any
• 48:04
  or other governments, what, what can they do to
• 48:08
  continue to support, you know, people in Hong Kong,
• 48:11
  for example, or, you know, should, does,
• 48:15
  does pressure on human rights still make sense?
• 48:18
  Right? There's no more human rights dialogue, certainly
• 48:21
  between the United States and China.
• 48:22
  I think Germany still has one.
• 48:24
  I don't know that it has any actual impact,
• 48:29
  but what, what would be, if you had a recommendation,
• 48:32
  for example, for the president of the United States,
• 48:35
  let's say for President Trump about what the US could
• 48:39
  or should be doing, what, what might you say?
• 48:43
  - I think we should always include human rights
• 48:45
  as an important item on the agenda of US China relationship.
• 48:48
  And not just for, not just for like moral reasons.
• 48:53
  Moral reasons is important.
• 48:54
  And I always believe that the, the competition between us
• 48:59
  and China should not be one of money
• 49:01
  and power military on only.
• 49:03
  I think it's more important
• 49:05
  what makes the United States strong and powerful and great.
• 49:08
  That's our values, right?
• 49:10
  That's, that's, that should be a relationship
• 49:12
  between democracy and dictatorship.
• 49:14
  Not not just other things.
• 49:16
  And, and we, we should not lose sight of those.
• 49:19
  And even for a more practical reason, pragmatic reason,
• 49:22
  I think in, i, I fully understand now
• 49:25
  with what's happening there were all many other priorities.
• 49:28
  It's hard to be a politician these days to to be
• 49:31
  what in whatever position.
• 49:33
  But I, I hope that people would not forget that
• 49:36
  human rights is not just about China.
• 49:38
  It's not just about Dan Tiananmen or anything else.
• 49:41
  If you look at COVID, right?
• 49:42
  The, the violation of human rights of Dr.
• 49:45
  Li w in Wuhan, right?
• 49:46
  He tried to speak out and warn us, became the violation
• 49:49
  of human rights of every single human being on earth.
• 49:52
  So we are on the same plane.
• 49:55
  So if the plane got hijacked in this global village,
• 49:58
  we would end up in the same place.
• 50:00
  You got a business class, I got a window seat,
• 50:02
  we end up in the same place.
• 50:04
  So don't, don't, don't, don't think
• 50:06
  that it's just about them, but it's also about us.
• 50:09
  I think international support is very important.
• 50:12
  I remember when Newberg got the Nobel Peace Prize Lau
• 50:15
  when he was recognized,
• 50:16
  or at that time I was at Harvard, I was, I went with my,
• 50:20
  my some other Chinese students.
• 50:21
  We were jumping into Harvard year, like kindergarten kids.
• 50:25
  We were jumping like, oh, you shall book at the Yes, yes.
• 50:28
  And all my friends were sending me messages from China
• 50:30
  and said that I'm so happy I haven't been so happy since
• 50:34
  that day, since that year, since that night.
• 50:39
  We don't have to say anything,
• 50:41
  everyone understand they meant 1989, June 4th.
• 50:45
  And, and so that kind of international recognition and,
• 50:48
  and for, for scholars like me, I, I, I mean that when I was
• 50:52
  so out, I lost my job.
• 50:53
  I lost my career at the middle age person.
• 50:56
  I'm still digesting all this personal and,
• 50:59
  and professional consequence.
• 51:00
  I was not even allowed to return
• 51:01
  to get my personal belongings, right?
• 51:04
  So, so, but
• 51:05
  but then intellectual, like there was institutions, right?
• 51:09
  And, and, and, and, and scholars and, and,
• 51:12
  and people like you, you give me a voice, you support me.
• 51:15
  You understand my struggle
• 51:17
  and all of this are very precious.
• 51:19
  So I, I grew up in a country
• 51:21
  that the government wouldn't do anything to help us.
• 51:23
  So I would not just count on the powerful people
• 51:25
  to do something for us.
• 51:26
  I think every single human being on earth can do something,
• 51:30
  can contribute something in your own place, in your own way,
• 51:34
  not necessarily loud and visible and, and confrontational,
• 51:38
  but pay attention and speak out and,
• 51:40
  and support when you can.
• 51:42
  And I think that would, that would help.
• 51:45
  And, and that would give us also light.
• 51:47
  Like I, I know many of the Chi Beijing council
• 51:50
  and embassies in, in Beijing, in Hong Kong,
• 51:54
  every June 4th they light the candles, sisters more gesture.
• 51:57
  They posted the picture and,
• 51:59
  and it would be very helpful for people struggling for,
• 52:03
  for light in darkness.
• 52:04
  And, and that gave us a lot of hope.
• 52:06
  So I think together in solidarity, we can do something
• 52:10
  to make a difference.
• 52:12
  It may not happen overnight, right?
• 52:14
  I I think you watched the fall bird burning wolf
• 52:17
  example before it happened.
• 52:19
  People would kept saying that it's impossible, but, but,
• 52:22
  but the day after, everybody would be telling you
• 52:25
  that change is inevitable.
• 52:27
  What's happening isn't, yes.
• 52:29
  So IIII, we have been losing so many battles.
• 52:32
  I I mean I 30 years think about it, that's the,
• 52:35
  the best part of my life.
• 52:38
  I, I'm no longer a young woman, but, but,
• 52:41
  but in the long run of history, it's just an instant.
• 52:44
  We may lose many battles,
• 52:45
  but I just have to believe as historian that we are going
• 52:48
  to win that war and history is on our side.
• 52:52
  China has to save his past in order to have a future
• 52:55
  - That's just, you know, beautifully,
• 52:56
  beautifully said, Rowina.
• 52:57
  So for listeners who want to know more
• 53:02
  about China's history, China's history with human rights,
• 53:07
  obviously there's, you know, your wonderful book,
• 53:09
  which I mentioned at the outset,
• 53:11
  but what else would you recommend that,
• 53:13
  that people read to learn more?
• 53:17
  - Maybe the word according to China?
• 53:20
  - Ah, you're so funny. Let's know. Don't do that. Seriously.
• 53:23
  What, what would you commend? I
• 53:25
  - I think it's, it's hard to name one book,
• 53:29
  but I think, I hope it's important that we try
• 53:31
  to understand China in context and with context.
• 53:36
  So, so, so not just in some abstract theories
• 53:39
  and try to understand what's happening,
• 53:43
  the PRC history and human lives.
• 53:46
  And it's not just numbers and figures and tables
• 53:49
  and AI answers, right?
• 53:51
  So it, there are so many human, human beings.
• 53:53
  And, and at Hoover, we, we have the archive, for example,
• 53:56
  that I went to all the time.
• 53:58
  This is a, a young woman executed at the age
• 54:01
  of 35, right?
• 54:03
  If you look at her writings and, and, and the details.
• 54:08
  So, so then, then you would understand, for example,
• 54:13
  like in, I think at, at that time when ERs know write about,
• 54:17
  what's that called, that book at the other
• 54:19
  side of the river.
• 54:20
  So, so, so, so then you would not have
• 54:22
  that kind of illusions.
• 54:23
  Can you imagine a young woman in solidarity confinement
• 54:26
  and then execute it and, and and,
• 54:29
  and then to be described as like, I guess s book.
• 54:34
  So I think sometimes when we were facing difficulties in,
• 54:38
  in our own situation, we would turn
• 54:40
  to the other for alternative.
• 54:42
  And we don't look at the actual reality
• 54:45
  and think, okay, that's the, that's the, that's the, the,
• 54:48
  the, the other way to, to, to run the country
• 54:51
  and idealize the situation.
• 54:53
  So it's important to look at the reality and,
• 54:55
  and I think the suppressed historical past
• 54:59
  of China is speaking to our future.
• 55:03
  - Okay. Rowena, I cannot thank you enough
• 55:06
  for taking the time to share your sort
• 55:10
  of personal history and all of your insights.
• 55:13
  As you know, one
• 55:14
  of the absolute top thought leaders on China
• 55:19
  and on Chinese human rights.
• 55:20
  It's really been, I think, you know, you are, first of all,
• 55:24
  you are not even middle aged by the way I am.
• 55:27
  It's 'cause you referenced that so many times.
• 55:29
  I feel compelled to say you do not qualify as middle aged.
• 55:33
  You are still young with a, a very, you know,
• 55:35
  long period ahead of you, I think to continue to do your,
• 55:39
  you know, important writings and,
• 55:42
  and to exercise the kind of leadership
• 55:45
  that you have in the past.
• 55:46
  And I know you will continue to do in the future
• 55:50
  and inspire, you know, many generations yet to come,
• 55:55
  both in China and outside China.
• 55:58
  So thank you again really for your, for all
• 56:01
  of your leadership and everything that you've done.
• 56:04
  - And thank you Elise, for, for helping
• 56:07
  to keep people informed and to, to understand China
• 56:10
  and to giving us a voice,
• 56:12
  especially when we were silenced in our home country.
• 56:15
  - Yeah. So if you enjoyed this podcast
• 56:18
  and want more informed discussion
• 56:20
  and debate on China, please subscribe
• 56:22
  to China considered via the Hoover YouTube channel
• 56:25
  or platform of your choice.