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Oregon Quintuple Murder-Suicide Victims Identified · Murder Files Unsealed

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: So I want you to just imagine for a second
• 0:02
  Speaker 1: that you are a firefighter.
• 0:03
  Speaker 2: Okay. Setting the scene. Right.
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: So you're a firefighter and you get dispatched on a
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: Saturday to what seems like just a totally routine call.
• 0:12
  Speaker 2: Like a structural fire or something?
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: Actually, the report is just a vehicle fire. And this
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: is out in a rural stretch of Forest Grove, Oregon. Okay.
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Out in the country.
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: Exactly. So you're riding in the engine, you're checking your gear,
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: you know, just mentally preparing for a standard suppression job.
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: Nothing crazy.
• 0:30
  Speaker 2: Right. Just another day at work.
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And you arrive at this sprawling 15-acre property. It's
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: super quiet, totally isolated, and just surrounded by these really
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: thick expanses of trees.
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: Which is a huge concern with the.
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: Fire, obviously. Oh, absolutely. So you unroll your hoses, you
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: step up to the flames, and your adrenaline is pumping
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: because you have to stop this fire from spreading to
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: the timberline, right?
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: Because if it hits the trees, it's a completely different situation.
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: Exactly. Exactly. But as you get close, the smoke kind
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: of clears for just a fraction of a second and
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: you see something inside or near that vehicle and suddenly
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: it hits you. You're not fighting a fire.
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: Oh, wow. Yeah.
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: You realize you are standing right in the middle of
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: a massive active crime scene.
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: That is, yeah, that's a nightmare scenario. Right.
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: And the worst part is every step you take, every
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: single drop of water you spray, you know, it might
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: be destroying the only evidence left of just an unimaginable tragedy.
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: It's the kind of paradigm shift that just completely short
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: circuits the brain.
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: I can't even imagine.
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: I mean, first responders, they're trained for chaos, right? But
• 1:37
  Speaker 2: they're trained for specific categories of chaos.
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: Right. Like putting out the fire.
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: Exactly. So the mental pivot required to go from, you know,
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: environmental mitigation, like putting out a fire to strict forensic
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: preservation in a matter of literally seconds. That is monumental.
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: So we are stepping into a really profoundly dark space
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: today for this deep dive.
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: We really are.
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: We're looking at the details surrounding a quintuple murder-suicide. And
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: this whole thing began on that isolated Oregon property and
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: ended nearly 200 miles away in Washington state.
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the geographical spread on this is pretty wild. It is.
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: But we're not just going to, you know, recount a
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: timeline of terrible events. We really want to dig into
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: the source material. Which today is a really thorough New
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: York Post report by Zoe Hussain.
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: It's a really dense piece of reporting.
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: It is. And our mission today is to understand the
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: underlying mechanics of how a tragedy of this scale is
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: actually processed by the people on the ground.
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: Right. The actual boots on the ground.
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So we're going to examine the physics of fire
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: and forensics, the psychology of a perpetrator. who tries to
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: basically erase an entire familial ecosystem.
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: Which is a deeply disturbing aspect of this case.
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: So disturbing. Plus, we'll get into the digital surveillance networks
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: that actually track a fugitive across state lines. And finally,
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: just the staggering logistical nightmare that's left behind for the investigators.
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: Because, you know, the reality of investigating an event of
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: this magnitude, it involves layers of protocol and interagency communication
• 3:08
  Speaker 2: that the public just rarely comprehends.
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: Right. We usually just see the headline.
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: Exactly. When you hear a news report, It's all condensed.
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: But the actual reality requires hundreds of people operating in
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: perfect synchronization across multiple jurisdictions.
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: OK, let's unpack this. Let's start exactly where the authorities started.
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: On that Saturday morning.
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: Yes, that Saturday morning in Forest Grove. So there's dispatch
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: audio that captures this exact moment of realization for the firefighters.
• 3:36
  Speaker 2: And it's pretty intense to hear.
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: It is. One of the responders gets on the radio
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: and the transmission is just it's chillingly calm. They say,
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: we do have a deceased victim up here. We're going
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: to need law enforcement.
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: It's completely professional despite what they're looking at.
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: Right. But then almost immediately the tone deepens and another
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: transmission follows. They say, I need a police unit or
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: a sheriff's office unit code for you to see just
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: in case we have two victims here.
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: So it's escalating rapidly in real time.
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: But here is where I really struggle to understand the protocol.
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: Because if I'm a firefighter, right, my entire imperative is
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: to act, to put out the fire. So if there's
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: a vehicle fire and there are victims, even deceased ones,
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: doesn't basic human instinct tell you to extinguish the flames
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: to preserve the bodies from further damage?
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: That's the logical assumption for a layperson. Yeah. But from
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: a forensic standpoint, it's actually the exact opposite of what
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: needs to happen once a scene is deemed suspicious.
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: Wait, really? The exact opposite?
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, fire is incredibly destructive, obviously. It consumes
• 4:39
  Speaker 2: organic material. It degrades DNA. It melts physical evidence. All
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: of that is true.
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: Right, so you'd want to stop it.
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: You'd think so. But you have to consider the alternative,
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: which is a high-pressure fire hose.
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: Oh, I see where you're going with this.
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: When a fire engine deploys water, it is not a
• 4:54
  Speaker 2: gentle mist. It is a massive, violent, kinetic force. It
• 4:58
  Speaker 2: basically acts like a blender to a crime scene.
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: Oh, wow. So you mean it washes away the evidence
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: before the fire can even burn it?
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: It's worse than just washing it away. It destroys the
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: spatial relationships.
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: What do you mean by spatial relationships?
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: So a crime scene is basically a three-dimensional puzzle. The
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: exact position of a shell casing relative to a body
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: or the specific pooling of blood or the presence of
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: trace chemical accelerants on the ground. All of that tells
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: a specific story.
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: Right. It tells them what happened and in what order.
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: Exactly. If you hit that scene with a high pressure hose,
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: you blow the shell casings 50 feet away into the mud.
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: You completely dilute the blood and wash it into the soil.
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: You flush away the chemicals.
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: Yep. You flush away the chemical signature of whatever might
• 5:41
  Speaker 2: have been used to start the fire. And on top
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: of that, the weight of the firefighters themselves just walking
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: in those heavy boots around the perimeter.
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: Oh, right. They'd be trampling everything.
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: Right. They'd trample footprints, tire tracks, and microscopic evidence.
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: So by trying to save the scene from the fire,
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: they would actually inadvertently become the primary destroyers of the evidence.
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: Precisely. And this brings us to the crucial pivot in
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: that dispatch audio. Because once they identify the deceased victim
• 6:07
  Speaker 2: and they recognize the, quote, suspicious circumstances... Their protocol dictates
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: a tactical retreat.
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: A retreat. While a fire is still going.
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah. They radio in and say, just take our hoses
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: and get out of here and let the sheriff's office
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: clear this. Then we'll return.
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: Man, that has to take so much discipline.
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: It's an active, highly disciplined choice to literally let the
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: fire burn to a certain degree just to freeze the
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: human intervention on that scene.
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: Goes against every fiber of their training, I bet. To
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: just pack up the hoses and walk backwards.
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: It requires immense restraint. But they are recognizing that the
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: scene no longer belongs to them. It belongs to law
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: enforcement now.
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: They're handing over an environment that, while it is burning,
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: is completely untouched by outside human interference since the perpetrator left.
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: Which is huge for the investigators.
• 6:58
  Speaker 2: Huge. And in rural environments, like a 15-acre plot in
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: Forest Grove... where backup from the Washington County Sheriff's Office
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: might be miles away, this kind of interagency handoff has
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: to happen flawlessly.
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: So let's talk about that specific environment, because 15 acres,
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: that is a massive piece of land.
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: It really is.
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: I mean, I grew up in a suburb where a
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: quarter acre felt like a lot of space. So 15
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: acres of farmland surrounded by dense expanses of trees, it's
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: not just a house, you know. It's basically a compound.
• 7:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a huge footprint.
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: So when those sheriff's deputies finally arrive and the firefighters
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: back away, what are the actual logistics of stepping onto
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: a property that large? Because you can't just throw some
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: police tape across the front door and call it good.
• 7:44
  Speaker 2: No, not at all. You are immediately facing a geographical nightmare.
• 7:49
  Speaker 2: The perimeter of a crime scene isn't just where the
• 7:51
  Speaker 2: bodies are found, right? It's anywhere the perpetrator might have traveled,
• 7:55
  Speaker 2: anywhere they prepared, or anywhere they might have dropped evidence.
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: So on 15 acres, where do you even start?
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: Well, the initial responding deputies have to secure the outer
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: boundaries to ensure no one wanders in, obviously. But they
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: also have to clear the entire property to make sure
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: there's no active threat remaining.
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: Oh, right. Because they don't actually know yet that the
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: suspect has fled the scene.
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: Exactly. They have to assume, from a tactical standpoint, that
• 8:20
  Speaker 2: an armed individual might still be hiding in the tree
• 8:22
  Speaker 2: line or in a barn or inside the main house.
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: That is terrifying. So they're essentially conducting this slow, methodical,
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: SWAT-style sweep of a small forest while an active fire
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: is burning right in the center of it.
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: Yes. And they're doing it with the knowledge that there
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: are multiple victims. So as they begin to process the scene,
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: the true scope of what they're looking at really starts
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: to materialize.
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: And this is where the incident shifts from being just
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: a complex rural crime scene into a truly staggering tragedy.
• 8:53
  Speaker 2: It really is.
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: Because when the deputies finally secure the area... and the
• 8:57
  Speaker 1: investigators can catalog what was actually left behind, the identities
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: of the victims reveal this terrifying pattern.
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the victimology here is crucial.
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: So we are looking at Stella Jade Kimsey, who was 26.
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: We're looking at her mother, Roman Carla Kimsey, who was 60.
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: And we're looking at Stella's grandmother, Mary Elizabeth Kimsey, who
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: was 85.
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: Three generations of women.
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: Three generations from a single family. And plus, the violence
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: bled out into their immediate social circle, too. Because they
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: also found Stelio's best friend, Lindsay Mae Haraldson, who was 26,
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: and Lindsay's partner, Alvin Raymond Chu, who was 27.
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: Five people total.
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: Five people. I mean, the scale of that violence, it
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: completely alters the investigative framework, doesn't it?
• 9:41
  Speaker 2: Oh, absolutely. Initially, if you just have a vehicle fire
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: and deceased individuals on a remote property, investigators have to
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: consider all the variables.
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: Right, like what could have happened.
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: Could it be a robbery gone wrong, a home invasion
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: by complete strangers, an accidental fire that turned fatal?
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: But the moment you map the identities of those five victims.
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: Right. The concept of a random event just dissolves entirely.
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: Because random strangers don't typically wipe out three generations of
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: a family and they're visiting friends on a secluded farm.
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: Exactly. Criminologically speaking, the targeted killing of an entire family
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: unit in their own home strongly points toward a specific
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: typology of offender.
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: Which is what?
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: We often refer to it as a family annihilator or
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: a mass domestic homicide.
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: A family annihilator. That is a heavy term.
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: It is. And when investigators look at who was supposed
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: to be on that property and they cross-reference that with
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: who is actually missing, they find their suspect pretty quickly.
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: Benjamin Charles Parker, who was 36 years old.
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: Right. And he is not some random outsider. He is
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: Stella's boyfriend. He lived on this property.
• 10:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he was a resident there.
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: The six-year-old mother, Rowan, she owned the property. So Parker
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: was living under her roof on her land while dating
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: her daughter.
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: Which means he intimately knew the geography of those 15 acres.
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: Oh, wow. Yeah, he knew every inch of it.
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: He knew the routines of the women who lived there.
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: He knew there were guests visiting. The Washington County detective,
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: Shannon Wild, she actually confirmed this was not a random act.
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: And from an investigative standpoint, that is a highly definitive statement.
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: What does that mean for the investigation, practically speaking?
• 11:18
  Speaker 2: It means they immediately recognize the hallmarks of deliberate premeditated action.
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: This wasn't just a sudden split-second escalation of a single argument.
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: Right, because wiping out five adults across a sprawling property,
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: that requires time.
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: It requires time, method, and a staggering amount of sustained aggression.
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: I really want to pause on this concept of sustained aggression.
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: Because there's a detail in the source material that forces
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: us to look closer at the perpetrator's mindset And it's
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: incredibly dark.
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I know the detail you're talking about.
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: It's one thing to silence witnesses, right? It's one thing
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: to target the people you are actively angry with. But
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: the investigators also found two dogs and cats dead on
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: the property.
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: And it didn't even end there. One cat was actually
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: found alive, but it was severely injured. First responders rushed
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: it to a veterinarian, but the injuries were so catastrophic
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: that the animal had to be euthanized.
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: Which is horrific.
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: Why target the pets? What is this level of collateral damage?
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: tell a forensic psychologist or an investigator about the person
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: who did this?
• 12:23
  Speaker 2: Well, it is a profoundly disturbing element of the crime scene, obviously,
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: but it does provide a critical window into the psychology
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: of the perpetrator. When we look at mass domestic homicides,
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: the violence is very often rooted in a pathological need
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: for total control. The perpetrator doesn't view the victims merely
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: as individual human beings with their own agency.
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: What do they view them as?
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: They view them as a collective extension of their own
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: environment or even as possessions.
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: Wow. So it's not just about killing the people. It's
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: about destroying the concept of the family itself.
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: Precisely. Animals in a household, they represent comfort, routine, unconditional affection,
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: basically the very glue of a family environment. Right.
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: They're part of the family structure.
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So by systematically hunting down and killing the pets
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: alongside three generations of the family... The perpetrator is engaging
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: in psychological overkill. It is a scorched earth methodology.
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: Scorched earth. That really is the only way to describe it.
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: He isn't just eliminating his immediate grievances. He is eradicating
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: the entire living ecosystem. He wants to ensure that absolutely
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: nothing of that family's life, not even the animals that
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: relied on them, survives his departure.
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: It's just a complete eradication of what was supposed to
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: be a sanctuary. But the extreme violence required to injure
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: a cat so badly... that it later has to be euthanized.
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: I mean, that speaks to a very chaotic, intensely physical scene,
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: doesn't it? It suggests a localized rampage.
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: It does. It tells investigators that the violence was likely
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: very prolonged.
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: Because animals would run away.
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: Exactly. Animals, particularly cats and dogs on a large rural property,
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: they will scatter at the very first sign of extreme
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: noise or violence. So to locate and kill multiple animals
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: across that kind of space, It means the perpetrator likely
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: spent significant time hunting them down after or even during
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: the primary homicides.
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: That is just a chilling level of dedication to total
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: destruction before he finally fled the property.
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: It really is.
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: And he did. He left this absolute void behind him.
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: He gets in his vehicle and he drives. And this
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: is the moment in the New York Post report where
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: the nature of the investigation radically transformed.
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: Completely shifts gears. Right.
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: We go from this very analog, messy, localized crime scene
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: in the mud in the timber of Oregon... to a high-speed, high-tech,
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: multi-state manhunt.
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: It's fascinating. It is the ultimate intersection of rural isolation
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: and modern digital surveillance.
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, because Parker leaves a location that is inherently off
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: the grid. Yeah. 15 acres out in the woods.
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: He likely assumes he has a massive head start.
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: Oh, for sure. He crosses state lines, he drives over
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: 180 miles north into Washington state, and he eventually ends
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: up in this small city called Enumclaw. which is about
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: 50 miles southwest of Seattle. Right.
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: But the investigators are not just physically chasing his tire
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: tracks up the highway.
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: No, they are tracking his digital shadow.
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: Exactly.
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: So Enumclaw Police Chief Tim Floyd explained that the Oregon
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: detectives realized Parker's cell phone was pinging in their city.
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: And I really want to break down the actual mechanics
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: of a cell phone ping here.
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: Okay, let's do it.
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: Because you see it on TV all the time. But
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: how precise is this, really? If I'm a detective in Oregon...
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: and I get a ping from a phone in Washington,
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: what am I actually seeing on my computer screen?
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: Well, it depends on the type of data they're requesting,
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: but generally, when we talk about a ping in a
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: fugitive hunt, we are talking about network location data.
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: Okay. As long as a modern smartphone is powered on,
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: even if you aren't making a call or sending a text,
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: it is constantly handshaking with the nearest cellular towers to
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: ensure it has the best possible signal.
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: So it's like it's constantly shouting, I'm here, who can
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: hear me?
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: That's exactly what it's doing. Yeah. And the cellular network
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: logs all of those handshakes. So law enforcement, under exigent circumstances,
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: which obviously a quintuple homicide certainly qualifies as.
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I would say so.
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: They can contact the suspect's cellular carrier and request that
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: data in real time. By measuring the time it takes
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: for the phone signal to reach multiple different towers in
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: an area, the network can triangulate the device's location.
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: So they don't necessarily have like, A glowing GPS dot
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: on a map right down to the specific parking space.
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: Usually not from a standard tower ping, no. I mean,
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: in an urban environment with hundreds of microtowers everywhere, triangulation
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: can get you down to a specific city block pretty easily.
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: But Edomclaw is a smaller city. The tower density is
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: much lower there. So a cell ping in Edomclaw might
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: only give investigators a radius of a mile or two. Okay,
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: so it just tells the Oregon detectives, He is somewhere
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: within this geographical circle in Washington state.
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: Exactly.
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: Which is helpful. But if you are the Enumclaw police,
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: a two mile radius still means searching hundreds of streets,
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: parking lots and alleys for one specific pickup truck.
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a needle in a haystack if you're just
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: driving around.
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: But they didn't have to blind search the city because
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: the Oregon detectives gave Enumclaw police the license plate number
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: and they utilized something called a flock system.
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: And this is where the investigation transitions from general proximity
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: tracking to To pinpoint automated targeting.
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: I found this part so interesting. Chief Floyd said they
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: put the plate into the flock system and instantly saw
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: that Parker had hit a couple of their cameras coming
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: into the city, but there was no record of him leaving. Yep.
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: To me, this is like a digital tripwire. You cross
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: an invisible line and the perimeter just seals shut behind you.
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: How does this system actually function on the ground? So.
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: Flock safety systems and similar automated license plate readers, or ALPRs,
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: they have fundamentally changed fugitive apprehension over the last few years.
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: How so?
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: Well, these are not your standard security cameras recording a
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: blurry video feed that some poor officer has to manually
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: rewind and watch for hours.
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: Right, trying to squint at a blurry license plate.
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: Exactly. These are highly specialized cameras placed at strategic choke
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: points around a city that So major intersections, highway off-ramps,
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: and the actual boundaries of the city limits.
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: What makes them so specialized, though? Are they just taking
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: really fast photos?
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: They are taking fast photos, but they're also equipped with
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: infrared sensors and high-speed shutter technologies. This is designed to
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: capture perfectly clear images of license plates regardless of the
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: time of day, weather conditions, or how fast the vehicle
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: is moving. Wow. But the hardware is only half the
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: equation here. The real power is the software. The cameras
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: use optical character recognition, or OCR.
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: Okay, so the computer is actually reading the letters and
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: numbers in real time, basically translating an image into text
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: on the fly.
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: Exactly. As every single car drives past, the camera snaps
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: a picture, reads the plate, and logs it into a
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: massive searchable database with a timestamp and a GPS coordinate
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: of the camera.
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: That's incredible.
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: So when Enumclaw police get that call from Oregon, they
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: don't have to dispatch 20 squad cars to drive around
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: aimlessly looking for a truck. A dispatcher simply types Parker's
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: license plate into their computer terminal.
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: And instantly the database just says, yes, this plate passed
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: camera A at the south entrance of the city at 2.15 p.m.
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: and passed camera B near the downtown corridor at 2.18 p.m.
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: Precisely. And more importantly, and this is what you brought
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: up earlier, the database shows a lack of data.
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: It shows that Parker's plate never passed any of the
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: outward facing cameras on the perimeter of the city. That
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: is the digital tripwire you mentioned. it provides investigators with
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: absolute certainty he is currently contained within our borders.
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: The speed of that interagency communication is just staggering to
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: think about.
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: It happens in minutes.
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: Think about it. You have this chaotic, burning crime scene
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: in Oregon. The detectives have to identify the victims, identify
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: the suspect, identify what car he drives, get his phone number.
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: Contact the telecom provider, get the ping, realize he's in
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: a completely different state, find the jurisdiction for that ping,
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: call the Enumclaw police, transfer the vehicle data, and have
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: Enumclaw run the flock system.
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: It's a massive chain of events.
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: And all of that happens in the time it takes
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: for a guy to drive a couple of hours up
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: the highway.
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: It really highlights the absolute necessity of seamless digitized intelligence sharing.
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: Because crime does not respect jurisdictional boundaries.
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: Not at all.
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: If the Washington County Sheriff's Office had to navigate days
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: of bureaucratic red tape to get a warrant for the
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: cell phone, or if Enumclaw didn't have an automated camera network,
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: Parker could have driven right through Washington and disappeared into
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: Canada or into the wilderness.
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: But instead, technology basically allowed the authorities to throw a
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: net over him while he was still sitting still. Yep.
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: And they found him.
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: They did. A local resident named Noah Moses... actually witnessed
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: the final moment of this manhunt. According to the Post,
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: he reported seeing police swarm a pickup truck behind a
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: Safeway grocery store in Enumflaw.
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: But there was no standoff. There was no hostage negotiation.
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: When the police closed in, they found Benjamin Parker dead
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: inside the vehicle from an apparent suicide.
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: Which brings a very sudden, jarring halt to the tactical
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: phase of this event.
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: The threat is gone.
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: Right. The threat to public safety is neutralized. The manhunt
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: is over.
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: But the investigation is far from over. In fact, with
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: the suspect dead, the hardest, most painstaking work is really
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: just beginning.
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: Oh, without a doubt.
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: Sheriff Caprice Massey, the sheriff down in Washington County, Oregon,
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: where the murders actually took place, she gave a statement
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: that really forces you to stop and think.
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: What did she say?
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: Well, she's been in law enforcement for 22 years. Two
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: decades of seeing the absolute worst of human behavior.
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: And yet she said, in my 22 years here, I
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: have not been a part of or witnessed a scene
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: of Quite this complex involving this type of an investigation.
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: Wow. That says a lot.
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: I really want to interrogate that word, complex. Because it's
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: so easy to hear that and just think she means
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: terrible or tragic.
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: Right. We use those words interchangeably sometimes.
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: But technically, logistically, what makes this scene more complex than, say,
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: a quadruple homicide in a city apartment?
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: So, complex. In the context of a 22-year veteran sheriff...
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: It refers to the convergence of compounding forensic variables.
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: Compounding variables?
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So think about it this way. An apartment homicide
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: is contained. It has four walls, a ceiling, and a floor.
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: It is a controlled microenvironment.
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: Right. You know where the scene starts and stops.
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: Exactly. What Sheriff Massey is dealing with is an uncontrolled macroenvironment.
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: Right, because we are back to the 15 acres.
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: Geography is the first layer of complexity. Processing 15 acres
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: requires an immense deployment of personnel. They can't just look
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: at the driveway and the living room. They have to
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: conduct grid searches of the entire property.
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: Just shoulder to shoulder walking through the woods. Yep.
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: They have to use drones for aerial mapping. They have
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: to bring in specialized canine units to search the dense
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: tree lines for evidence that might have been discarded, like
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: a weapon or clothing, or even secondary crime scenes hidden
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: in the brush.
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: And the second layer of complexity is the fire itself, right?
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: Because they didn't just find a pristine scene in... They
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: found a scene that had been subjected to extreme heat
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: and water.
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: Exactly. The elemental destruction degrades the primary evidence. If the
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: fire was inside or near the house or the vehicles,
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: investigators are sifting through ash and melted debris.
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: They had to separate the arson from the homicide.
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: Right. They have to bring in arson investigators to determine
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: the origin point of the fire, the accelerants used, and
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: how the fire interacted with the victims' remains.
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: But then you have the victims themselves. Five human beings.
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: Two dogs. Multiple cats. I mean, that is a massive
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: amount of biological evidence.
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: That is the third layer. You are essentially managing multiple
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: distinct homicides within the exact same perimeter. Each victim requires
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: their own discrete forensic processing. Blood spatter analysis, for example,
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: becomes incredibly difficult if the scene has been exposed to
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: the elements or to water from the fire hoses.
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: Because it's all washed out.
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: Exactly. Investigators have to map the exact positioning of everybody
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: to reconstruct the sequence of events. Who was targeted first?
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: Did anyone try to flee? And the animal remains must
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: also be processed with the exact same rigor.
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: Why is that? I mean, I know it's sad, but forensic-wise?
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: Because determining when and how the pets were killed establishes
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: the timeline of the perpetrator's movements across the property. It
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: tells them where he went and when.
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: And just when you think you have your arms around
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: that 15-acre puzzle, you realize there is a fourth layer
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: to this complexity. The suspect is dead 180 miles away
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: in a completely different state.
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: Exactly. Now you have a secondary, completely distinct crime scene
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: in Enumclaw, Washington.
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: And because it's across state lines, you have jurisdictional complexity.
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: Oregon authorities have zero legal jurisdiction in Washington.
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: So they can't just go up there and process the truck? No.
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: No. So Washington State crime scene units have to process
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: Parker's truck. They have to process his body. They have
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: to secure his cell phone, any weapons in the vehicle,
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: and any physical evidence on his person.
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: So you have two different state crime labs, two different
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: medical examiner's offices, multiple local police departments, and the sheriff's
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: office all trying to coordinate.
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: The logistics of maintaining a flawless chain of custody for
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: evidence across all those moving parts... You know, ensuring that
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: a piece of data pulled from a truck in Washington
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: seamlessly matches up with the ballistic report in Oregon. That
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: is the literal definition of investigative complexity.
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: And they have to do all of this in a
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: total vacuum of subjective narrative.
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: The authorities haven't released details on the motive or the
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: exact method used to kill the victims.
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: And the one person who knows exactly what happened, in
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: what order and why, is dead.
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: He took it with them.
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: How do investigators build a timeline when there is no
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: one left to interrogate?
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: This is the ultimate grueling challenge of forensic science. When
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: you have a living suspect, even a completely uncooperative one,
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: you have the potential for confession, interrogation, or witness testimony.
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: Wait, you can talk to them.
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: You have a subjective narrative that you can test your
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: evidence against. But when the suspect takes his own life,
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: investigators are forced to rely entirely on objective truth. They
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: have to make the silent evidence speak for itself.
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: How do you make silence speak? I mean, practically speaking.
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: Through an exhaustive reliance on timestamped data and physical reconstruction,
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: they will pull the digital forensics from every phone, computer,
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: and smart device found in that house.
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: They aren't looking for a confession. They are looking for
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: the last heartbeat of normalcy. When was the last text
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: message sent by Stella? When was the last time Rowan
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: accessed her email? When did the digital tripwire and enum
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: claw register Parker's truck?
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: So they're pinning data points on a board.
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: They build a timeline of data points.
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: Then.
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: They layer the physical evidence on top of that. Toxicology
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: reports from the medical examiner will show the time of death.
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: Ballistics or tool mark analysis will show the method. They
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: essentially build a cage of irrefutable scientific facts and whatever
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: shape is left empty inside that cage. That is the
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: narrative of the crime.
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: It's like trying to put together a million piece puzzle,
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: but someone burned the box. So you don't even know
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: what picture you're trying to make. You just have to
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: match edges until an image appears.
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: That is a very accurate way to describe the burden
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: placed on these investigators.
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: But the burden isn't just on the detectives in the lab,
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: you know. There is a deeply human, emotional reality to
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: this report that extends way beyond the police tape.
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the human cost is immeasurable.
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: We talked about the firefighters at the very beginning, the
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: ones who arrived, realized it was a crime scene, and
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: had to back away. Will Forsgrove Fire and Rescue... later
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: post a statement on Facebook that is just incredibly hard
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: to read without feeling the weight of it.
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: I read that post. It's heartbreaking.
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: They didn't use sterile bureaucratic language. They mourned the vibrant
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: lives lost. And they specifically pointed out that these were
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: friends and neighbors. They said these are people they would
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: literally see at the local grocery store or a restaurant.
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: That statement really exposes the raw nerve of rural and
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: small town tragedy.
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: In a major metropolitan area... Violence can be geographically close,
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: but socially incredibly distant. A crime scene is processed by
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: professionals who likely have zero personal connection to the victims.
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: Right, it's just a job.
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: But in a community like Forest Grove, the degrees of
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: separation are practically non-existent.
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: The first responder who had to make the call to
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: back away from the fire, they might have bought coffee
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: from one of those victims the day before.
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: Exactly. The professionals processing the scene are experiencing a dual
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: trauma— They are executing a highly technical, demanding job under
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: extreme pressure, but they are doing it while processing the
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: fact that they are cataloging the destruction of people they recognized.
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: It is so heavy.
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: The psychological toll on the community, and specifically on the
• 29:19
  Speaker 2: emergency apparatus of that community, is profound. The safety net
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: itself is grieving.
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: We have journeyed through an incredibly dense, harrowing landscape today.
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: We covered a lot of ground.
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: We really did. We started by looking at the sheer
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: discipline required by first responders to step back from an
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: active fire and preserve a fragile scene. We examined the
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: horrifying psychology behind the eradication of an entire generational ecosystem,
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: three family members, two friends, and the deliberate destruction of
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: the household pets. We unpacked the digital architecture of modern policing,
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: looking at how cell phone handshakes and automated license plate
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: readers can trap a fugitive across state lines in a
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: matter of hours. And we broke down the immense multi-jurisdictional
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: complexity of processing 15 acres of tragedy without a suspect
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: to provide a single answer.
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: It really forces us to recognize the staggering amount of unseen,
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: synchronized effort required by our institutions to simply understand the
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: mechanics of violence after it occurs.
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: It does. And as we conclude our analysis of this material,
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: I want to leave you with a thought that isn't
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: actually found in any of the police reports or the
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: digital timelines we discussed today. Okay. It is a reality
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: that this community in Oregon is waking up to right now.
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: When a catastrophic event like this occurs, when an entire
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: family is just erased in an afternoon, and the person
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: responsible immediately takes their own life in a parking lot
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: 180 miles away, the justice system is completely bypassed.
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: That's a really stark way to put it, but it's true.
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: For all its flaws, the justice system provides a structure
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: for our grief. We rely on investigations leading to arrests.
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: We rely on the theater of a courtroom. We rely
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: on trials, you know, evidence being presented to a jury
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: and ultimately a verdict.
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: It gives a definitive end point.
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: Right. It is how society organizes the unthinkable. It is
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: how we demand a why. But when the perpetrator is dead,
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: there is no trial. There is no confession. There is
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: no one to stand in front of a judge and
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: answer for the void they created.
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: The book just closes.
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: Exactly. So the question remains. Without the machinery of justice
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: to provide a definitive ending, how does a tight-knit community
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: ever truly find closure? Or do they just have to
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: learn day by day, year by year, to live alongside
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: an eternal, unanswered question?
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: That is a haunting thought to end on.
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: Thank you for joining us on this deep dive into
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: the sources. Keep examining the evidence, keep asking the hard questions,
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: and we will catch you next time.