Latest / Juicy Scoop with Heather McDonald / Matt Murphy, The Preppy Murder, Girl Kills Parents and Idaho 4

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Matt Murphy, The Preppy Murder, Girl Kills Parents and Idaho 4 · Juicy Scoop with Heather McDonald

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Heather MacDonald has got the Juicy Scoop. When you're on
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: the road, when you're on the go, Juicy Scoop is
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: the show to know.
• 0:12
  Speaker 2: She talks Hollywood tales for real life, Mr.
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: Saving Serial Data and Serial Sisters. You'll be addicted and addicted.
• 0:20
  Speaker 3: Fast to the number one tabloid real life podcast.
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: Listen in, listen up. Woo, woo. Heather MacDonald. Juicy Scoop. Hello,
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: and welcome to Juicy Scoop. This is a special Juicy
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: Crime episode with your favorite crime expert, attorney, hot surfer,
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  Speaker 1: OC guy, LA Loyola boy, my Catholic brother from another mother,
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: author of the book of murder, Matt Murphy. Welcome back
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: to Juicy Scoop.
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  Speaker 3: Thanks for having me again.
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  Speaker 1: The book is a huge hit.
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  Speaker 3: It's doing remarkably well, which is good for my ego.
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: Yes.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: And, I mean, I hope to see this. We talked
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: about it before. I hope to see it like I
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: could see it as a series because you're such an
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: interesting character and then all the different kinds of things
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: that you could write around it. So putting it out
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  Speaker 1: there in the universe for you. Thank you. But we
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: have lots of things to talk about. Thank you for
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: coming to my party.
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  Speaker 3: It was great. That was actually really fun.
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: Thank you. I appreciate you coming.
• 1:24
  Speaker 3: Sort of middle of summer.
• 1:26
  Speaker 5: Everybody's got that summer, like, The summer look going, and
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  Speaker 5: it was fabulous.
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  Speaker 3: It's fun for me. It's the second time I've ever
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  Speaker 3: actually stood on one of those red carpets.
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  Speaker 6: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: Right?
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  Speaker 5: And then I look, and the guy next to me,
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  Speaker 5: I'm like, I know I recognize him from somewhere.
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  Speaker 3: And it was Dr.
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  Speaker 4: Drew.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah. I love Dr. Drew.
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  Speaker 1: He's the best.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, that was a fun night.
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  Speaker 1: I'm so glad you came.
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  Speaker 6: They think you're done for the day, but they don't
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  Speaker 6: know about the drawer. The drawer. Just the one square
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  Speaker 6: before bed. Or two, you know, nobody's watching.
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  Speaker 1: You deserve a treat.
• 2:07
  Speaker 6: With eight flavors to choose from, you can choose the
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  Speaker 6: flavor you favor with Cadbury Dairy Milk.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, now we're going to talk about crimes and documentaries
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  Speaker 1: and the big news stories. So the Idaho murders... Murders.
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  Speaker 1: I watched some of this doc, which is on Amazon Prime,
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  Speaker 1: came out a few days ago, One Night in Idaho.
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  Speaker 1: It is very, very well done. And for someone who,
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  Speaker 1: you know, is an amateur at trying to figure out
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  Speaker 1: what happens in these crimes, we covered a lot of
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: it here on Juicy Scoop. There was a lot of
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  Speaker 1: wondering what happened, what happened with the two roommates that
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: were the survivors that called each other and why did
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: they not wake up till 12. And why, when there
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: was a call, did they say it was an unconscious
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  Speaker 1: person instead of four people murdered? And we never really
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  Speaker 1: heard from those people, but we see them on this.
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  Speaker 1: And it's really, I mean, first of all, it's just
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  Speaker 1: absolutely heartbreaking and really hard to watch. I actually told
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  Speaker 1: my sister, Shannon, I'm like, I don't think you should
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  Speaker 1: watch it. I go, because the girls will remind you
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  Speaker 1: too much of your daughter going off to college this year.
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  Speaker 1: As we know, just to catch people up, there was
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: a plea deal in which he did say, I killed
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: all four people premeditated. I watched that video in front
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  Speaker 1: of the judge. Explain a little bit about how those
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  Speaker 1: type of things happen.
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  Speaker 3: So this was a death penalty case.
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  Speaker 5: And essentially, the Western United States, pretty much every state
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  Speaker 5: of the 27 that still has the death penalty, they do.
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  Speaker 3: What's called a bifurcated trial. OK, so the first phase
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  Speaker 3: is the guilt phase.
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  Speaker 5: Second phase is what's known as the penalty phase. In
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  Speaker 5: the penalty phase, the jury considers the aggravating and mitigating
• 4:01
  Speaker 5: circumstances of the offense. So for example, somebody that, say
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  Speaker 5: they go in and they kill their stepdad who is
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  Speaker 5: molesting them. Okay, so that's an accusation we've heard a
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  Speaker 5: lot with the Menendez brothers that we're going to get to,
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  Speaker 5: not stepdad, but natural dad. So if there's mitigating evidence,
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  Speaker 5: the jury will weigh that, they'll assign a weight to that,
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  Speaker 5: and then they'll determine whether or not The aggravating circumstances substantially.
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  Speaker 3: Outweigh the mitigating.
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  Speaker 4: OK.
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  Speaker 5: And if they do, they can but are not required
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  Speaker 5: to return a verdict of death. So a lot of
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  Speaker 5: that is it's kind of thick legalese.
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  Speaker 1: Quick question.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: Is where what states are this a death penalty in
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  Speaker 1: every state?
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  Speaker 3: Some 27 states still have it in the federal system.
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  Speaker 1: And then we don't have it in California.
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  Speaker 3: We have the death.
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  Speaker 5: Penalty on the books in California, but there's a moratorium
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  Speaker 5: on it. There's over 700 people on death row. We'll
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  Speaker 5: probably never see another execution in California. It's a very
• 4:57
  Speaker 5: emotional topic for a lot of people, death penalty. There
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  Speaker 5: are really good reasons against having it that are philosophical, religious, whatever.
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  Speaker 5: And there are good reasons for it. And when we
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  Speaker 5: get out of the crazy politics of our time, and
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  Speaker 5: actually engage in the pros and cons, those are really
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  Speaker 5: interesting conversations that I think are healthy for people to have.
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  Speaker 1: Basically- One thing I was going to say about the
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  Speaker 1: death penalty is I feel like if you get the
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  Speaker 1: death penalty in like a California where you're probably never
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  Speaker 1: going to get to death, it seems like whether you're
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  Speaker 1: Scott Pearson or whoever, there's a lot more people that
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  Speaker 1: are more engaged in wanting to help you or innocence
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  Speaker 1: project or whatever, because you might die versus someone that
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  Speaker 1: is going to spend the rest of their life in prison.
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  Speaker 1: It doesn't seem like there's as many people that are like,
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  Speaker 1: oh my God, this person has been put away for
• 5:51
  Speaker 1: life and they're innocent because they're not dying. So it's
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  Speaker 1: almost like, it almost helps you. There aren't too many
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  Speaker 1: of what?
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  Speaker 5: I sit on a board where the whole job is
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  Speaker 5: to essentially identify, it's in Indiana. It's with Northern Purdue
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  Speaker 5: University where we, We try to identify people in prison
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  Speaker 5: that have been wrongfully convicted. And I've been on the
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  Speaker 5: board for five years, and honestly, I've yet to see one.
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  Speaker 5: And the guy that is our main veteran, his name's
• 6:18
  Speaker 5: Timmy Murphy, who I love, he actually spent 21 years
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  Speaker 5: in prison for murder he legitimately did not commit. And
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  Speaker 5: he's the harshest critic. He's like, no, this guy did it,
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  Speaker 5: this guy did it, this one's full of shit. And
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  Speaker 5: they're hard to find. The system really does, despite all
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  Speaker 5: the heat, you know, it.
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  Speaker 5: The vast majority of the time, a person who's in
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  Speaker 5: prison for murder committed the murder that they were convicted of.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, I guess the things that would really get
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  Speaker 1: someone off is now if they were convicted before DNA.
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  Speaker 1: And now there's some DNA that proves that it was
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  Speaker 1: a completely different person or the actual person is in
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  Speaker 1: the system and happened, you know.
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  Speaker 3: And that happens.
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  Speaker 5: But what you see a lot of times, and I've
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  Speaker 5: been in this, I've been doing this for 32 years now.
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  Speaker 5: So I've seen, I feel like I've seen it all.
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  Speaker 5: But what happens is the, The standard on appellate reversal
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  Speaker 5: is could the new evidence have led a reasonable jury
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  Speaker 5: to have reached a different result? So because DNA is
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  Speaker 5: so sensitive, a lot of times on those pre-DNA cases,
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  Speaker 5: you'll have a murder that's committed, say, by a homeless guy,
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  Speaker 5: and it's a businesswoman. And he'll come in and say,
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  Speaker 5: we had consensual sex. That's why my DNA was there.
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  Speaker 5: But somebody else came along later and killed her. Then
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  Speaker 5: DNA comes along. Sure enough, they find it's called sperm
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  Speaker 5: fraction DNA belonging to the defendant. But if she has, like,
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  Speaker 5: If she has unknown male DNA under a fingernail, that
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  Speaker 5: could be a little boy she patted on the head.
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  Speaker 5: The mailman, if she shook hands with him, it could
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  Speaker 5: be anybody that's not in the system. That can lead
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  Speaker 5: to the reversal of the case. Then they bring it
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  Speaker 5: back 25 years later, and the files got lost in
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  Speaker 5: the great flood of 83, or Aunt Millie, who was
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  Speaker 5: in charge of the evidence room, screwed something up, or
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  Speaker 5: your main witness is dead. And so they don't pursue
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  Speaker 5: it again. That guy gets released. And a lot of
• 8:01
  Speaker 5: times you see people on the Innocence Project coming out going, aha,
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  Speaker 5: another innocent man exonerated, and it's not true. The guy
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  Speaker 5: actually did do it, and that's a huge percentage of
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  Speaker 5: those reversals. Okay, so DNA has freed innocent people, no
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  Speaker 5: doubt about it, but a lot of that low-hanging fruit
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  Speaker 5: that we saw 10, 15 years ago, it doesn't really
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  Speaker 5: exist that much anymore. Now it's more nuanced. It certainly
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  Speaker 5: does still happen, but it's very rare, and it's a
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  Speaker 5: lot more rare than people.
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  Speaker 3: Would like to believe.
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  Speaker 1: Well, to talk a little bit about these victims, There's
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  Speaker 1: some thought of, did they push to, I mean, there's
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  Speaker 1: many reasons why you'd push to a plea deal. And
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  Speaker 1: two of the families are pleased with it. And those
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  Speaker 1: two families are Maddie, who was the one that most
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  Speaker 1: people believe that he was obsessed with, that he went there.
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  Speaker 1: Maybe he didn't mean to kill everybody. Maybe he didn't
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  Speaker 1: know there were six people. Maybe he only thought there
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  Speaker 1: was one, you know, because in Maddie's room, she had
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  Speaker 1: her own room. But on that day, Her best friend
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  Speaker 1: that she'd been best friends since they were six, you know,
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  Speaker 1: was like, oh, sleep in my bed, whatever. Girls do that.
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  Speaker 1: And they were both asleep in the room. And then
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  Speaker 1: most likely, I'm guessing, the young man who was like 6'4,
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  Speaker 1: which is also so tragic because he not only had
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  Speaker 1: a twin brother, he had a triplet sister. They were
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  Speaker 1: actually triplets and they were all in school together. And
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: he probably heard something and then tried to stop it,
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  Speaker 1: I'm guessing. And then his girlfriend and he were both
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  Speaker 1: done and the girls downstairs we finally kind of hear
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: from them or I can't remember we hear from them
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: or we hear their their story of when they woke
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  Speaker 1: up at like noon she's like something weird happened last
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  Speaker 1: night but I don't know if I was dreaming because
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  Speaker 1: they were drinking it was a Saturday football game they're
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: probably been drinking since noon went to bed at two
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  Speaker 1: saw the guy with the bushy brows and was like
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  Speaker 1: wait was that like did I dream that and we've
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: people who have gotten drunk, you kind of like, so
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: then she calls her other friend and the friend's boyfriend
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  Speaker 1: to come over. And it's he who then sees something
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: right away. And he calls 911 and he says it's
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: an unconscious person because he didn't want to say that
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: in front of the girls. But when that came out
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: and we didn't know and the police were being quiet,
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: as they should, you know, that was such a, like, why?
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: Why at 12? Why an unconscious person?
• 10:30
  Speaker 4: Why?
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: And it's like, again, I always say, you know, who's
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: to say how you're going to react in such a weird,
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  Speaker 1: there isn't a playbook for when you find out that
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  Speaker 1: four of your roommates have been slaughtered to death while
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: you were drinking one night. That's right.
• 10:42
  Speaker 5: No, and your take on it is exactly what mine is.
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  Speaker 3: I think that's exactly what happens.
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  Speaker 5: Like Mike Tyson says, everybody has a plan until they
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  Speaker 5: get Hit in the face. He had a plan to
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  Speaker 5: go in there. I think that he was focused on one.
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  Speaker 5: And the plan fell apart because there were two girls
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  Speaker 5: in the bed. And after slaughtering them both, it makes
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  Speaker 5: perfect sense that Ethan came down. And he probably chased
• 11:01
  Speaker 5: him back to the room that he was sleeping in,
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  Speaker 5: murdered him there. And so I think your take on
• 11:06
  Speaker 5: it is exactly right. And, of course, they're kids.
• 11:08
  Speaker 3: They're college kids. And, you know, for the roommate, I
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  Speaker 3: feel sorry for her because she got a lot of heat.
• 11:13
  Speaker 3: I saw a guy with bushy eyebrows.
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: This is a.
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  Speaker 5: Bunch of girls in college. Guys were coming in and
• 11:18
  Speaker 5: out of that house certainly all the time. And so
• 11:21
  Speaker 5: this all... And you're right. You never know how you're
• 11:24
  Speaker 5: going to react to a situation.
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  Speaker 3: It's like.
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and even when she called her one friend to say,
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: come over at 11.45 a.m., I think something freaky happened
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: last night. She jokingly says to her, okay, should I
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: bring my pepper spray? Yeah. Like, they didn't... Right, they
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: didn't know. She was just kind of like, I just...
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: She was like, I'm calling upstairs. But something told her
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: not to go up herself. So I think she knew...
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: instinctively it was not just oh crazy sex last night
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: and they both passed out and they were not up
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: at noon like I think but I remember going through
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: it there was such weird stuff about Xena had ordered
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: like Taco Bell and they were the two other girls
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: were at um at a uh a food truck prior
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: and they were, people, you know, the internet detectives were seeing,
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: look at this guy with his hands in his pocket
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: who's also waiting for a burger, like maybe it was
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: him and now we know it was just this freak
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: that was fixated on her and his car was there
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: and truly is the person that did it. But I
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: was saying, if he was to go to trial, don't
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: you think the defense would have maybe been to spare
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: his life He only meant to just look at her
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: or something. Maybe he didn't mean to kill her. The
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: two girls woke up and then he then he killed
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: them both. If you're defending him and then the Ethan
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: comes in and, you know, and then and now he's
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: killed four people and he didn't kill the other two girls.
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: So maybe his intent was not to kill all four,
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: even though he did pled that he had. premeditated killing
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: all four of them.
• 13:00
  Speaker 5: Well, he pled to killing all four as a result
• 13:03
  Speaker 5: of the burglary and with premeditation to go into the house.
• 13:07
  Speaker 5: So the burglary is what makes it what's known as
• 13:10
  Speaker 5: a special circumstance.
• 13:12
  Speaker 3: But I'll tell you what.
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: He says it was a burglary?
• 13:14
  Speaker 5: Yeah, he said that he went in with the intent
• 13:18
  Speaker 5: to commit a felony therein. That's essentially what a burglary requires.
• 13:22
  Speaker 5: And when the DA took the plea.
• 13:26
  Speaker 3: And I've got strong opinions on that.
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: Well, let's hear it.
• 13:29
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 13:29
  Speaker 5: Well, look, so I sat on the committee in Orange
• 13:33
  Speaker 5: County that reviewed these for 15 years. I've reviewed over 100.
• 13:36
  Speaker 5: Every special circumstance case would go through our committee and
• 13:39
  Speaker 5: we'd make a recommendation to the filing or to the
• 13:41
  Speaker 5: elected DA about whether or not to seek death or
• 13:44
  Speaker 5: life in prison.
• 13:45
  Speaker 3: Okay. And in California, it's life without possibility of parole
• 13:49
  Speaker 3: or the death penalty. All right.
• 13:51
  Speaker 5: So You go through those aggravating and mitigating factors, like
• 13:55
  Speaker 5: the case we were just talking about, like the kid
• 13:56
  Speaker 5: that was molested by the stepdad who murders him. That's
• 13:59
  Speaker 5: a huge factor in mitigation. Maybe there's drugs involved. Maybe
• 14:02
  Speaker 5: there's more than one person and the person on trial
• 14:04
  Speaker 5: was under the dominion and control of somebody who, like
• 14:08
  Speaker 5: a boyfriend or a husband or somebody that's really the
• 14:12
  Speaker 5: main actor, the driving force. There's a bunch of different
• 14:15
  Speaker 5: mitigating factors to reconsider. There's freaking zero in this case.
• 14:19
  Speaker 5: Brian Koberger was a monster. He did this because he
• 14:22
  Speaker 5: wanted to. He was obsessed with Ted Bundy. There's a
• 14:24
  Speaker 5: sexual assault component.
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: Oh, he was obsessed with Ted Bundy?
• 14:26
  Speaker 3: Obsessed with Ted Bundy. That's another.
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: It's very Ted Bundy-ish because with the sorority house.
• 14:31
  Speaker 3: That's right.
• 14:31
  Speaker 5: And for those who, I mean, Ted Bundy was a monster.
• 14:35
  Speaker 5: But the DA said there was no sexual component in that.
• 14:39
  Speaker 5: I just about jumped through my computer screen when I
• 14:41
  Speaker 5: saw him do that. There is a sexual component to
• 14:44
  Speaker 5: almost every single true serial killer type of murder. And
• 14:48
  Speaker 5: when you go into– he.
• 14:49
  Speaker 3: Was obsessed with at least one, but I.
• 14:51
  Speaker 5: Think he was following two of them on social media.
• 14:55
  Speaker 5: And he goes in there with that knife. He's not
• 15:01
  Speaker 5: there to play bingo. There's no ameliorating or mitigating factors
• 15:05
  Speaker 5: that have ever been released that we've heard other than
• 15:08
  Speaker 5: he may have been somewhere on the autism spectrum, which
• 15:11
  Speaker 5: is a big fact he may break.
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: There was no– Well, I mean you're like getting a
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: graduate degree. So if you're that, you're obviously functioning in
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: the world.
• 15:18
  Speaker 3: And he already had his master's. So he was a
• 15:21
  Speaker 3: PhD student. So this is a guy who– right.
• 15:23
  Speaker 5: He's functional. He had a relationship with his parents. He
• 15:26
  Speaker 5: was capable of learning. Like this was not– there was
• 15:29
  Speaker 5: no mitigating factors that outweighed the slaughter and the brutality that.
• 15:33
  Speaker 3: He put those families through.
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: So I mean there's no– you don't think we're going
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: to find– obviously there was no– other person that might,
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: like they kind of did with the Giglio murder, beach murder,
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: like where they're like, oh my god, four years ago
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: there was a girl missing. So, I mean, are we
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: pretty much convinced that this was the first time he killed?
• 15:54
  Speaker 3: It looks like this was his first rodeo.
• 15:56
  Speaker 5: The reason I say that is, A, he made so
• 15:58
  Speaker 5: many mistakes of leaving the knife sheath, which is deep.
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: With his DNA all over it. Which is like the knife,
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: the little leather thing that would cover the knife.
• 16:04
  Speaker 5: Yeah, and this was a Marine Corps K-bar knife is
• 16:07
  Speaker 5: what it's called. So this is a vicious stabbing instrument,
• 16:10
  Speaker 5: and What the DA revealed in the plea for the
• 16:14
  Speaker 5: first time was that they had an Amazon purchase for
• 16:17
  Speaker 5: a K-bar knife.
• 16:18
  Speaker 3: So that's the exact type of sheath it was that
• 16:20
  Speaker 3: we didn't know about before.
• 16:21
  Speaker 5: So a lot of the sleuthing that you're just talking
• 16:23
  Speaker 5: about is a result of the gag order that the
• 16:25
  Speaker 5: court put on that. Because I think that, and there
• 16:27
  Speaker 5: was kind of.
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: A- The sleuthing that other people did, you mean. Yeah,
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: that you could do.
• 16:31
  Speaker 3: There's a great documentary for those who haven't seen it
• 16:34
  Speaker 3: called Don't F with Cats.
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: Oh, I did see it. It was great.
• 16:36
  Speaker 3: It's awesome.
• 16:37
  Speaker 5: That's online sleuthing gone right. This is one where they,
• 16:40
  Speaker 5: a bunch of online sleuths, put it together and accused
• 16:44
  Speaker 5: one of the professors at that college of doing it
• 16:46
  Speaker 5: who's totally innocent.
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: And that was- Also, Maddie, for a while, people were
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: very suspicious of Maddie's ex-current boyfriend, kind of back and
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: forth boyfriend.
• 16:54
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: And they had talked that night. And thank God he
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: was cleared pretty soon. But even for a matter of days,
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: do you imagine having to go through that? And then
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: also people- Wondering about, you know, the two young girls
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: and what their mindset were. And, you know, obviously they're
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: going to, you know, be screwed up forever.
• 17:16
  Speaker 5: The DA changing the plea, you know, and there again,
• 17:21
  Speaker 5: there are good reasons to do that. Like the families
• 17:25
  Speaker 5: won't go through the process. The families won't.
• 17:27
  Speaker 3: Have to suffer through the appellate process.
• 17:30
  Speaker 5: But the way they broke it down in Idaho is
• 17:34
  Speaker 5: that it looks like he's going to get a parole.
• 17:35
  Speaker 3: Hearing one day.
• 17:37
  Speaker 5: And imagine this guy being out again because it's 10
• 17:39
  Speaker 5: plus 10 plus 10 plus 10 for the four murders
• 17:42
  Speaker 5: plus whatever your parole date would be for a 10-year
• 17:45
  Speaker 5: max on a burg.
• 17:46
  Speaker 3: So he's going to do under.
• 17:48
  Speaker 5: Current Idaho law 40 years and a few years before
• 17:53
  Speaker 5: he gets a parole hearing. He's a young man. Like
• 17:55
  Speaker 5: you want this guy getting out in his 70s? And
• 17:58
  Speaker 5: that's a problem. It's not life without possibility of parole.
• 18:01
  Speaker 5: I got a problem with that.
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: How is it not life without possibility of parole? I
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: thought it was.
• 18:05
  Speaker 3: Because it's a determinant sentence. In California, it is.
• 18:07
  Speaker 5: In Idaho, it is not, apparently. Now, and I got
• 18:11
  Speaker 5: a problem with the way he handled it. I got
• 18:12
  Speaker 5: a problem with the way that the Gonsalves family wasn't
• 18:16
  Speaker 5: in the loop. If what they said is true, that
• 18:18
  Speaker 5: they learned about this in an email and were given
• 18:21
  Speaker 5: like 48 hours to be at court, in California, that
• 18:24
  Speaker 5: would violate the constitutional rights of those families. And when
• 18:27
  Speaker 5: he got up, when that guy got up and told
• 18:29
  Speaker 5: us even more information we didn't know, and then started
• 18:32
  Speaker 5: choking up at the end.
• 18:33
  Speaker 3: I don't know if you saw that.
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: Who, the DA?
• 18:35
  Speaker 5: The DA started crying at the end as he's giving
• 18:37
  Speaker 5: Koberger a break. And Koberger, again, having done a bunch
• 18:42
  Speaker 5: of these, I tried eight of these myself. I prosecuted
• 18:45
  Speaker 5: 13 serial killers while I was in the unit for
• 18:47
  Speaker 5: the 17 years I was in the homicide.
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's disgusting that there's even 13 on the earth,
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: let alone that you actually prosecuted 13.
• 18:54
  Speaker 3: Oh, yeah.
• 18:55
  Speaker 5: The FBI estimates that at any given time, there are
• 18:58
  Speaker 5: between 25 and 50 active serial killers in the United
• 19:02
  Speaker 5: States at any given time.
• 19:03
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 19:04
  Speaker 5: And they're just, they're out there. These guys are, they're
• 19:06
  Speaker 5: out there and have been since ancient Rome and even
• 19:10
  Speaker 5: ancient Greece.
• 19:11
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• 19:14
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• 19:42
  Speaker 4: I'm Darman, and this is What Happens Next. Each week
• 19:47
  Speaker 4: on the show, I sit down with extraordinary people who
• 19:50
  Speaker 4: have faced tremendous setbacks, and yet somehow have found a
• 19:54
  Speaker 4: way to turn them into their greatest strengths.
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: Life is one long lesson of chaos.
• 20:00
  Speaker 3: I'm heading to the Emmys, and I have police complaints
• 20:02
  Speaker 3: filed against me.
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: When your free will was about to be taken from you,
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: what would you do if it was given back?
• 20:08
  Speaker 4: Where did that need come from where you thought that
• 20:11
  Speaker 4: you had to succeed in order to feel loved?
• 20:13
  Speaker 3: He said, I have a work dad. I need a
• 20:15
  Speaker 3: home dad. What happens next? When I came in, he
• 20:17
  Speaker 3: started crying. Everybody in life encounters hardships.
• 20:21
  Speaker 4: What defines them is not those hard moments that they
• 20:24
  Speaker 4: go through.
• 20:25
  Speaker 3: It's about what happens next.
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: I decided to risk it all.
• 20:28
  Speaker 3: I realized how valuable every day was. You're worth the work.
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: Listen, Dara, I'm not going to pull punches. You can
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: use your voice even if it's shaped.
• 20:35
  Speaker 4: The stories are different, but the impact is the same.
• 20:39
  Speaker 4: Only one question matters. What happens next?
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: How many women serial killers have there really been? Are
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: those mostly just like a weird nurse or poisoning people?
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: It's not, I think maybe because it's physically, they don't
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: have the strength of men. So like, what is a
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: female serial killer like?
• 21:04
  Speaker 3: So that's, that is a really interesting question.
• 21:06
  Speaker 5: There's a woman, of course, famously Eileen Warnhouse in Florida.
• 21:10
  Speaker 5: She was a female serial killer who's killing truck drivers.
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: Oh, that was the movie.
• 21:13
  Speaker 3: That's right.
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: That's right.
• 21:14
  Speaker 3: So, They do exist.
• 21:17
  Speaker 5: And the FBI definition of serial killer is two or
• 21:20
  Speaker 5: more killings committed by the same person at different events.
• 21:23
  Speaker 5: That's a really broad net. OK, that's that's that's very,
• 21:27
  Speaker 5: very wide. That includes gang members that can shoot straight.
• 21:29
  Speaker 5: That includes like mercy killing nurses. So or my scholar
• 21:35
  Speaker 5: daily own case, the I think the really interesting ones
• 21:38
  Speaker 5: like this one. And there's an old book, I talk
• 21:43
  Speaker 5: about this in my book, called Psychopathia Sexualis, which is
• 21:47
  Speaker 5: written by a guy. He's a contemporary of Freud. He
• 21:50
  Speaker 5: was a German psychiatrist in the late 1800s. And he
• 21:53
  Speaker 5: called them sadistic lust murders. So when you're talking about
• 21:56
  Speaker 5: the Dahmers and the Bundys and the John Wayne Casey's
• 22:00
  Speaker 5: and the Ted Bundys or my Rodney Alcala case, the
• 22:03
  Speaker 5: woman of the hour with Anna Kendrick.
• 22:05
  Speaker 3: Those guys are sexual predators. And those are– it's a
• 22:12
  Speaker 3: subset of the broad.
• 22:13
  Speaker 5: Definition of serial killer. But those are really– I have
• 22:16
  Speaker 5: no doubt that Koberger is one of those. So I
• 22:20
  Speaker 5: was pissed when that DA got up and said there
• 22:22
  Speaker 5: was no sexual component.
• 22:23
  Speaker 3: He can't know that.
• 22:25
  Speaker 5: It was– I think it was inappropriate for him to
• 22:27
  Speaker 5: say that. I've been publicly critical of him on that before.
• 22:30
  Speaker 5: But for there to be such a disconnect with at
• 22:32
  Speaker 5: least two of those families should never happen.
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: What's really interesting about that is because– I knew that,
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: you know, some of the families weren't OK with it.
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: And then I came across this, which was the mother
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: of the triplets. So the mother of the boy, Ethan,
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: she said there there's no appeal. He will go away.
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: My kids were going to be subpoenaed. And his friends
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: were going to be subpoenaed. And I'm glad that they
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: don't have to go through this. She said we were
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: in contact with the prosecutors throughout it. So they are
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: extremely pleased with this. However, Zena, his girlfriend's parents and
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: family were not happy with it. And they were a couple.
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: And essentially, Callie and Maddie were, you know, together best
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: friends since they were six. which is kind of heartbreaking
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: that they, I seem to be at odds maybe with
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: Maddie's parents because they met when they were six, the
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: family's all got along. Yeah.
• 23:33
  Speaker 3: That's the fault of the DA.
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: You wonder if like, was there any kind of, you know,
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: you lose the most important thing in your life, your
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: child is, was there any moment of like, if she
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: just hadn't lived with Maddie, she wanted to live over here. Like,
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: I don't know. Like, it's just, you, you don't know
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: what people grasp at in their worst moments. And, So
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: then last night I looked up in the documentary because
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: I was watching it, but there were so many kids
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: talking and stuff, and I didn't finish it. And both
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: the families that are not happy with this plea were
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: no part of the Amazon Prime doc, which kind of
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: makes me wonder how much was like working together, like
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: with the documentarian and the DAs. Not that they did
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: anything sinister, but it just is kind of strange that
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: The people that were happy with the plea are featured
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: and the people that are not were not, chose not
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: to be featured.
• 24:26
  Speaker 5: So the thing is, if you're going to seek life
• 24:28
  Speaker 5: in prison, make that announcement at the beginning. Don't put
• 24:31
  Speaker 5: the families through over a year of this with all
• 24:33
  Speaker 5: of the motions, remember that, and the change of venue
• 24:35
  Speaker 5: and everything that everybody went through. And it's not just
• 24:38
  Speaker 5: about the families. They're the most important element. First thing
• 24:41
  Speaker 5: I would always do in our office when we would
• 24:43
  Speaker 5: have a case like this, first thing we do is
• 24:44
  Speaker 5: meet with the families. I give them my personal cell number.
• 24:47
  Speaker 5: because you can give them some solace that at least
• 24:50
  Speaker 5: there's people that care about the case. But that kind
• 24:53
  Speaker 5: of communication, and sometimes family members can be tough, but
• 24:57
  Speaker 5: that's a part of the job. And there has to
• 25:00
  Speaker 5: be or there should be a change in circumstance, like
• 25:03
  Speaker 5: some critical piece of evidence isn't going to be admitted,
• 25:06
  Speaker 5: or there's something that has changed in the original assessment
• 25:09
  Speaker 5: that makes you look at it differently. And another thing
• 25:13
  Speaker 5: is ethically, it's really, and I'm not saying they did this,
• 25:16
  Speaker 5: You don't file the death penalty just to extract a plea.
• 25:19
  Speaker 3: You don't do that. You plead what you prove and
• 25:22
  Speaker 3: you prove what you pled. That was the philosophy of
• 25:24
  Speaker 3: the people that trained me.
• 25:25
  Speaker 5: So when you have a guy that announces that he's
• 25:27
  Speaker 5: seeking death, if you're going to come off it for
• 25:29
  Speaker 5: the sake of the families or whatever, great. But there
• 25:32
  Speaker 5: should be a change of circumstance. And it shouldn't just be, well,
• 25:35
  Speaker 5: now Koberger's lost all his pretrial motions. So he wants
• 25:38
  Speaker 5: to plead guilty. They all want to plead guilty. None
• 25:40
  Speaker 5: of them want to face the prospect of execution because
• 25:44
  Speaker 5: the vast majority of these guys are actual psychopaths. They
• 25:47
  Speaker 5: are the narcissist, picture it, narcissist to the extreme extreme.
• 25:51
  Speaker 3: Is what a psychopath really is.
• 25:53
  Speaker 5: The only person they really care about on the planet
• 25:56
  Speaker 5: Earth are themselves. And in the state of Idaho, we
• 25:59
  Speaker 5: have over 700 people here on death row in California,
• 26:02
  Speaker 5: probably never seen another execution. Idaho, they have seven or
• 26:06
  Speaker 5: maybe eight now. So it's a very small number. They
• 26:08
  Speaker 5: have firing squad there. He faced the very real prospect
• 26:12
  Speaker 5: of execution today. had he been convicted of this. And so,
• 26:15
  Speaker 5: of course, he wants to plead. And the big winner
• 26:18
  Speaker 5: that day, I hate to say it, was Brian Koberger.
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: And it bugs me. I agree. And I talked about
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: this on my Patreon. It was like, this guy, you know,
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: everybody that has a podcast will be reaching out to him.
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: And if he can book an interview once or twice
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: a month for the next 30 years— That's something to
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: live for. That's breaking up your week. That's giving you attention.
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: You can change your narrative. You can say you found Jesus.
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: You can get a wife or two or cheat on
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: the wife that's writing you with a new one.
• 26:55
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: Like the Menendez. Can I add.
• 26:58
  Speaker 3: To that a little bit?
• 26:59
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 26:59
  Speaker 5: One of the most common things you hear is, well—
• 27:03
  Speaker 5: And this comes from a good place, most people. I
• 27:05
  Speaker 5: guarantee some of your listeners are thinking this right now.
• 27:07
  Speaker 5: They're thinking, well, I think the worst thing for them
• 27:09
  Speaker 5: would be to sit in a cell and have to
• 27:11
  Speaker 5: think about it for the rest of their lives. They
• 27:13
  Speaker 5: don't think like that. They wouldn't have committed the crime
• 27:16
  Speaker 5: in the first place. And there's a picture of Brian
• 27:18
  Speaker 5: Koberger that he snapped.
• 27:20
  Speaker 3: It's a selfie. He did two of them.
• 27:22
  Speaker 5: One, he's wearing a hoodie and he looks like a
• 27:24
  Speaker 5: frigging vampire. Another one, right after the murder, he's giving
• 27:27
  Speaker 5: himself a thumbs up with this sinister grin. That's Brian Koberger.
• 27:31
  Speaker 5: That guy is going to have zero guilt. He's not
• 27:36
  Speaker 5: going to spend one second in his cell.
• 27:38
  Speaker 3: Regretting what he did. Otherwise, he wouldn't have done it
• 27:40
  Speaker 3: in the first place.
• 27:41
  Speaker 5: He's a psychopath. That's the way they think. And this
• 27:44
  Speaker 5: whole idea where you humanize these guys, it is a mistake.
• 27:48
  Speaker 3: It is a mistake.
• 27:48
  Speaker 5: And I hear it all the time. It's like, oh,
• 27:51
  Speaker 5: the worst thing would be to spend time really regretting it.
• 27:53
  Speaker 5: That's thinking like a human. If you think like that,
• 27:55
  Speaker 5: you don't go slaughter four kids in the first place.
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: Of course, as a parent. He had parents. He was
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: pulled over with the dad prior to him being arrested,
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: but after the murders for something else, some simple violation.
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: Have you ever dealt with parents who are good people
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: that are just horrified that they raised a murderer?
• 28:19
  Speaker 5: Okay, so this is another great myth about serial killers.
• 28:23
  Speaker 5: We all think of Buffalo Bill from Silence of the Lambs, right?
• 28:25
  Speaker 5: We think of the tortured individual who's killing women to
• 28:28
  Speaker 5: wear their skin. because he's trying to metamorphosize. And if
• 28:32
  Speaker 5: you read Mindhunter, the book, that's based on a real guy,
• 28:36
  Speaker 5: but he was horribly abused as a child. So he's
• 28:40
  Speaker 5: literally driven insane. And so we have this, one of
• 28:43
  Speaker 5: the most common questions I got in Homicide was what
• 28:46
  Speaker 5: could drive them to do that?
• 28:47
  Speaker 3: What could drive them to do that? The grim reality
• 28:51
  Speaker 3: is a lot of these guys are.
• 28:54
  Speaker 5: It's not from abuse. And Koberger had nuclear parents. His
• 28:58
  Speaker 5: biological mom and dad were still together. He had a
• 29:00
  Speaker 5: good enough relationship with his dad that they're driving across
• 29:03
  Speaker 5: country together. I didn't have that when I was 28.
• 29:05
  Speaker 5: My dad kicked me out when I was 17. A
• 29:08
  Speaker 5: lot of us don't. And so he had a good family.
• 29:13
  Speaker 5: And you see that when it comes to serial killers.
• 29:15
  Speaker 5: over and over and over again. Rodney Alcala, mental level IQ,
• 29:19
  Speaker 5: that's the dating game killer. He had a mother who
• 29:21
  Speaker 5: loved him. He had an aunt in his life.
• 29:22
  Speaker 3: Who loved him. He had a brother who graduated from
• 29:24
  Speaker 3: West Point, became a hero in Vietnam. Over and over
• 29:27
  Speaker 3: and over again, they are functional. They have high intelligence,
• 29:30
  Speaker 3: a lot of them. They have girlfriends. They have wives.
• 29:33
  Speaker 3: They are employed. They are functional members of society. They're
• 29:36
  Speaker 3: not doing it because they're compelled out of some horrific abuse.
• 29:39
  Speaker 3: They do it because they get off on it, because
• 29:41
  Speaker 3: it turns them on, and because they want to do it.
• 29:44
  Speaker 3: To them, to true serial killers, this kind of stuff
• 29:48
  Speaker 3: is fun.
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: Have you ever talked to parents that are a nuclear
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: family and this happens?
• 29:54
  Speaker 3: Oh, yeah.
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: And do they come closer together as parents or do
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: they turn and blame each other? Do they visit the
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: kid or are they just like, yeah, you should be
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: behind bars. Like you are beyond repair. You killed multiple people.
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: Like I don't even.
• 30:08
  Speaker 3: It's important to remember. And, you know, another one is Dahmer.
• 30:10
  Speaker 5: There's some great home videos of Dahmer interacting with his father,
• 30:14
  Speaker 5: even though he was kind of villainized in the in
• 30:16
  Speaker 5: the what was it?
• 30:17
  Speaker 3: Netflix. Yeah. Netflix series. I think that that was kind
• 30:21
  Speaker 3: of a it's a trope. To try to blame the parents.
• 30:24
  Speaker 5: And at the end of the day, the most common
• 30:27
  Speaker 5: trait that you see in these guys isn't abuse. It's
• 30:30
  Speaker 5: that they were spoiled, that they were indulged as kids.
• 30:32
  Speaker 5: I had another one, Andrew Urdialis. My next book, we
• 30:35
  Speaker 5: just did our proposal for it, and it's going to
• 30:38
  Speaker 5: be focused on serial killers. It was a trial we
• 30:41
  Speaker 5: did for six months. This guy was in the Marine Corps,
• 30:44
  Speaker 5: and he murdered five here in Southern California, probably five
• 30:49
  Speaker 5: more in the Chicago and Indiana area. all women, but
• 30:52
  Speaker 5: he also did multiple tours overseas as a Marine. So
• 30:56
  Speaker 5: I know he has victims over there in the middle
• 30:58
  Speaker 5: of his killings. And he's very prolific, super brutal. And
• 31:03
  Speaker 5: when we, because of that penalty phase, both the prosecution
• 31:08
  Speaker 5: and the defense, it's almost a race to mitigation. So
• 31:11
  Speaker 5: when you're working on one of these as a prosecutor,
• 31:14
  Speaker 5: hopefully the detectives have brought you in You have to
• 31:16
  Speaker 5: make all those calls and find out what happened in
• 31:19
  Speaker 5: this person's life because if there really is abuse, we
• 31:22
  Speaker 5: need to know about it now because if it's really
• 31:24
  Speaker 5: bad and it's real, and we believe it's real, probably
• 31:26
  Speaker 5: shouldn't seek the death penalty. Like if they really abused
• 31:29
  Speaker 5: his kids. But over and over again, what you do
• 31:31
  Speaker 5: is when you send really good detectives out there and
• 31:34
  Speaker 5: they interview family members who are like, no, there was
• 31:36
  Speaker 5: no abuse.
• 31:37
  Speaker 3: You see that over and over. Ernie Ellis was one
• 31:39
  Speaker 3: of those. And what happened with him, he had a
• 31:41
  Speaker 3: bunch of kids, blue collar family in Chicago. His oldest brother, tragically,
• 31:46
  Speaker 3: was a soldier in Vietnam and lost his life fighting
• 31:49
  Speaker 3: for his country, right? Heroic brother. The mom took that.
• 31:53
  Speaker 5: She was so devastated by it that she spoiled the
• 31:56
  Speaker 5: hell out of Andrew Urdialis. And it was like first
• 32:00
  Speaker 5: in line at the swing sets. He got everything he
• 32:02
  Speaker 5: wanted as a kid. I think Bundy had a very
• 32:05
  Speaker 5: similar background. I'll call it definitely had a similar background.
• 32:08
  Speaker 5: And that's something that you don't see enough in the literature.
• 32:11
  Speaker 5: Like these kids that are indulged and spoiled because then
• 32:13
  Speaker 5: they become young men and The world isn't so kind
• 32:16
  Speaker 5: to them, and they are entitled, and they take what
• 32:20
  Speaker 5: they want, and then they find that they get off
• 32:22
  Speaker 5: on it. I think that that is a component. It's
• 32:24
  Speaker 5: understudied in the literature. I'm hoping to add some chapters
• 32:28
  Speaker 5: in my next book on that because I think it's
• 32:30
  Speaker 5: a fascinating psychological component of it.
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and also just, you know, we know that he
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: was hunting and seeking them out and looking around the house, and,
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: you know, they were just such joyful people. They were cute.
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: They were all friends. They were having this fun life.
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: They were you know, close part of the frat sorority world.
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: I'm guessing he didn't have that at any time. And
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: that resentment too, just to add to the psychopath of
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: it all.
• 32:56
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 32:56
  Speaker 5: And he, his, whether it was on the spectrum or not,
• 32:58
  Speaker 5: I mean, he's super high functioning if he was, I
• 33:01
  Speaker 5: kind of think.
• 33:01
  Speaker 3: It was crap, but, but he also had a drug problem.
• 33:04
  Speaker 3: So he had a lot of the, if what drugs,
• 33:07
  Speaker 3: He was a heroin addict earlier on, co-worker was, allegedly.
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: Oh, I think I hit.
• 33:11
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 33:12
  Speaker 5: So the thing about that is that how much of
• 33:13
  Speaker 5: that social isolation was some poor guy, and I didn't
• 33:17
  Speaker 5: hear anything about him ever being bullied, was shunned. And
• 33:21
  Speaker 5: how much of it was just a product of his
• 33:23
  Speaker 5: own bad decision making? Because it really is different. And
• 33:26
  Speaker 5: that's another part of this, that one of the things
• 33:28
  Speaker 5: in the debate, and look, believe it or not, I'm
• 33:31
  Speaker 5: neutral on it. The death penalty for or against, I
• 33:35
  Speaker 5: really think there's good arguments both ways.
• 33:37
  Speaker 3: I really do.
• 33:38
  Speaker 5: But when you hear the whole deterrence argument, that's a
• 33:42
  Speaker 5: straw dog argument. Like there's no other crime, whether it's
• 33:45
  Speaker 5: burglary or robbery, you never hear that. It's like, well,
• 33:49
  Speaker 5: how do we know that by giving this robber eight
• 33:50
  Speaker 5: years in prison, it deters other people?
• 33:52
  Speaker 3: Like you don't hear that anywhere.
• 33:54
  Speaker 5: The death penalty is sought, in my experience, on a
• 33:58
  Speaker 5: case-by-case basis for individual justice crimes.
• 34:01
  Speaker 3: For that case. And you talk about this. Look at
• 34:03
  Speaker 3: those faces. They were these were innocent kids. They're all beautiful.
• 34:07
  Speaker 3: They're all at the very.
• 34:08
  Speaker 5: Beginning of their lives. They're going to have wonderful lives.
• 34:10
  Speaker 5: They're going to have families of their own. And the
• 34:12
  Speaker 5: ripple effect that these families are devastated. And for the
• 34:17
  Speaker 5: families that support the plea, I have zero criticism for them,
• 34:20
  Speaker 5: you know, and for the families that were against it. Again,
• 34:23
  Speaker 5: we can't we can't criticize somebody that they're victims and
• 34:27
  Speaker 5: they are immediate victims. Their lives will never be the same.
• 34:30
  Speaker 5: Because what happened, and look, in my view, if this
• 34:33
  Speaker 5: went up in our committee, this would have been a
• 34:36
  Speaker 5: death penalty case all day long. And we wouldn't have
• 34:38
  Speaker 5: come off it simply because the defendant wanted to plead
• 34:40
  Speaker 5: because they all do. And I think that that was,
• 34:42
  Speaker 5: I think it was the wrong call. I think that
• 34:44
  Speaker 5: the prosecution blinked. I think it was a cowardly move.
• 34:47
  Speaker 5: And I disagree with it.
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: And, you know, as someone who, you know, does talk
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: about this, and this is part of my show, of course,
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: I feel so much for the victims. But I also
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: think and as someone that enjoys watching movies about this,
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: we know there's going to be movies.
• 35:04
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: There's going to be a movie in two years. There's
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: going to be a movie in 10 years. There's going
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: to be just like, just like Bundy, just by OJ,
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: just like over and over and over again, because when
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: they would, people know this is what's going to get sold.
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: This is what people are going to watch because they
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: are young. They are attractive. It was a sensationalized story there. So,
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: and then, sadly, you know, of course the victim's families
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: don't have to watch it, but just to see it,
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: to start getting the calls, like five years from now,
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: they're going to be like, okay, I'm now have a
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: grandchild and things are moving on. And then it's going
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: to be like Netflix announces the dah, dah, dah, dah.
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: And I, I just am like, oh, it, people don't
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: think about that too, that it's never it when it's
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: a sensationalized case, it's never truly over.
• 35:50
  Speaker 5: Well, I, I, you know, I've, I've had to think
• 35:53
  Speaker 5: about this one in the true crime world, you know?
• 35:55
  Speaker 5: And I think that when it comes to public education,
• 35:58
  Speaker 5: I think it's a really good thing.
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 36:00
  Speaker 5: You know, I think that when it comes to another,
• 36:02
  Speaker 5: another good part about this plea, which I do kind
• 36:05
  Speaker 5: of like is all those online sleuths, you know, and,
• 36:07
  Speaker 5: and most of the time, like I'm, I'm all for
• 36:10
  Speaker 5: the engagement, right. Like for people to learn about it. And,
• 36:13
  Speaker 5: but for, there were some crazy conspiracy theories and the people, the,
• 36:17
  Speaker 5: the Coburger there's, there's, they had some, there's, they had
• 36:20
  Speaker 5: some name that they started calling themselves. And I, it
• 36:22
  Speaker 5: was like the, and I, I can't remember exactly what
• 36:26
  Speaker 5: it was.
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: You mean they thought he was innocent or something?
• 36:27
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 36:27
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 36:28
  Speaker 5: So it's like, hey, he came into court and pled guilty. Like,
• 36:32
  Speaker 5: you were all wrong.
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 36:34
  Speaker 3: All the conspiracy theories.
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 36:35
  Speaker 3: He really did do it. All the cell phone people
• 36:38
  Speaker 3: that we heard, the experts that were.
• 36:39
  Speaker 5: Calling out, you were all wrong. And by the way,
• 36:41
  Speaker 5: the college professor didn't do it. The ex-boyfriend didn't do it.
• 36:45
  Speaker 5: The police were right. This was a really good investigation.
• 36:47
  Speaker 5: The evidence was overwhelming. It was always overwhelming. And he
• 36:51
  Speaker 5: would have gone down, especially in a death-qualified jury in Idaho.
• 36:54
  Speaker 5: And I think he would have been sentenced to death. Look,
• 36:57
  Speaker 5: it is the highest level of appellate scrutiny as it
• 37:00
  Speaker 5: should be, especially in a state that might actually execute,
• 37:02
  Speaker 5: but it should be.
• 37:03
  Speaker 3: Death penalty is something that's very somber. It's very serious.
• 37:07
  Speaker 5: But I, yeah, this is one that just, in my view,
• 37:11
  Speaker 5: my opinion, screamed out for it.
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: Well, we pray for their families.
• 37:15
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: Okay. Now, this was, I did not even know about
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: this till this weekend, but there is a case. His
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: name is Rowell Valley. And the way I understand it
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: is there were two private schools. One, I think, was Catholic.
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: Maybe the other one was just non-denominational. But so these
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: kids come from means because it's like 19,000 a year.
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: The other ones, it was 22,000 a year or something.
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: And the boys were like fighting. Do you know much
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: about this case? Why don't you explain? You could probably
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: explain it better than I. But it got a lot
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: of press because the verdict just came out.
• 37:54
  Speaker 5: So, yeah, and I don't pretend to be an expert
• 37:56
  Speaker 5: on all the details of this. But essentially what happened
• 37:58
  Speaker 5: was it was end of the year, high school parties.
• 38:03
  Speaker 5: And these guys go to this kid here on the screen.
• 38:07
  Speaker 5: He's 20 now. He goes with a bunch of buddies
• 38:10
  Speaker 5: to one party and they get in a big fight.
• 38:12
  Speaker 5: Then they go to the party of essentially their rival school.
• 38:16
  Speaker 5: And there's a second big fight. And this guy pulls
• 38:19
  Speaker 5: a knife out and stabs four of the kids that
• 38:21
  Speaker 5: are involved in the fight, stabbing one in the heart.
• 38:24
  Speaker 3: Killing him.
• 38:24
  Speaker 5: And he was a lacrosse player. Again, and these are horrible.
• 38:30
  Speaker 5: And I've prosecuted these myself in Orange County. Young guys,
• 38:34
  Speaker 5: a lot of ego, a little bit of booze. They
• 38:37
  Speaker 5: start fighting and somebody pulls out a knife. And physiologically,
• 38:42
  Speaker 5: it's a really tragic part of the human body. The
• 38:49
  Speaker 5: majority of people are right-handed. And we are almost completely
• 38:52
  Speaker 5: symmetrical until you get in the inside. And I've watched,
• 38:55
  Speaker 5: I saw a bunch of these autopsies with young men
• 38:57
  Speaker 5: who've been killed with knives. Almost all of our really
• 39:01
  Speaker 5: important blood vessels in our heart come out on the
• 39:03
  Speaker 5: left side. So when you're talking about a right-handed person
• 39:06
  Speaker 5: and they're swinging at shoulder level, if you get it
• 39:09
  Speaker 5: between the ribs, you, it's, it's very common.
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: It is.
• 39:14
  Speaker 3: So yeah.
• 39:14
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: That's so interesting.
• 39:15
  Speaker 5: And that's what, that's what happened here. So this kid
• 39:17
  Speaker 5: got stabbed. Um, and I've, I've, I prosecuted these as
• 39:21
  Speaker 5: murder cases. Melee, brawl, some guy pulls out a knife,
• 39:26
  Speaker 5: stabs another kid, and that kid will die.
• 39:29
  Speaker 3: And yeah, you get.
• 39:31
  Speaker 5: The heart or any of those really critical blood vessels
• 39:35
  Speaker 5: coming out of the left side of the heart. It's
• 39:39
  Speaker 5: usually over within a couple of minutes, and it is brutal.
• 39:42
  Speaker 3: And so, yeah.
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: So, I mean, I saw some of his testimony. He
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: did take the stand.
• 39:46
  Speaker 4: Yep.
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: Which we always talk about, you know, do you put
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: your defendant on the stand? And so often it seems
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: like they don't. Obviously, it worked in his favor. You know,
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: he was, from what I can tell, extremely remorseful, crying, saying,
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: you know, they were all attacking me and I had
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: the knife and I was just inadvertently going like this
• 40:10
  Speaker 1: to just get them away. Now, the prosecutor had his
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: former friend say, the other people involved were all exonerated
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: and they were witnesses for the prosecution, but it was
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: more like he went back to the car and got
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: the knife, which then would say, it's not like it
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: was on you from cutting open a box at the
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: UPS store earlier. That does make you sound like it
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: was a little bit, like you went to the fight
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: with a knife, whether you left and got another, you
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: did go with the knife.
• 40:42
  Speaker 3: Okay, so for your viewers, You went to Louisville. I
• 40:45
  Speaker 3: went to Loyola.
• 40:47
  Speaker 5: My, my, my Christmas dance date and my senior prom
• 40:51
  Speaker 5: date both went to Louisville.
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: Congrats.
• 40:55
  Speaker 3: Thank you. So look, we've, we've, we did the prep school,
• 40:59
  Speaker 3: high school circuit thing. I got in fights when I
• 41:01
  Speaker 3: was in high school, like, like, like this. It's a,
• 41:04
  Speaker 3: you don't hear.
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: About fights as much. So I have to say like
• 41:08
  Speaker 1: knock on wood, like both my son's, there were maybe
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: fights that happened at the, at the brother's boy school
• 41:14
  Speaker 1: that my son went to. He was never really, he
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: was never involved in one. It doesn't seem like it
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: happens as much. It's 2025. We're in LA. Everything's litigious.
• 41:23
  Speaker 3: It's harmless.
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: So it's like, this was to me shocking. This is
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: something that would happen in 1988. Right. Minus the knives,
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: but stuff like that did happen.
• 41:32
  Speaker 3: That's the thing. Minus the knives.
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 41:34
  Speaker 5: So having lived in that world, the prep school thing,
• 41:36
  Speaker 5: which we did going to those parties, which we did,
• 41:38
  Speaker 5: the rivals, the crispy, whatever. Um, fights happen, people have bruises,
• 41:43
  Speaker 5: and they have good stories and hangovers the next day.
• 41:45
  Speaker 5: Who frigging brings a knife? Who brings a knife? And
• 41:48
  Speaker 5: when you pull a knife out, and look, I'm reticent
• 41:52
  Speaker 5: ever to criticize a jury's decision. And of course, as
• 41:55
  Speaker 5: an attorney, I accept the jury's decision. This kid is
• 41:58
  Speaker 5: presumed innocent. He was acquitted of the murder. He's acquitted
• 42:00
  Speaker 5: of the manslaughter. That's the way our system works. I
• 42:04
  Speaker 5: accept that completely. That foreperson decided to give an interview.
• 42:08
  Speaker 5: And he said, that he was very critical of the
• 42:10
  Speaker 5: prosecution saying essentially they had no evidence of intent to kill.
• 42:14
  Speaker 5: I don't know how much more intent you could have
• 42:16
  Speaker 5: than stabbing somebody with a knife in the heart. Okay,
• 42:20
  Speaker 5: like swinging it around, that is a deliberate thing. He
• 42:23
  Speaker 5: stabbed four different people.
• 42:25
  Speaker 3: Right, so the whole defense was self-defense.
• 42:27
  Speaker 5: Right, more from the perspective of a kid having been
• 42:30
  Speaker 5: at that party when we were kids, who pulls out
• 42:34
  Speaker 5: a frigging knife and starts stabbing people? And so that's
• 42:37
  Speaker 5: why the prosecution- went after him for murder. And that's
• 42:40
  Speaker 5: why they haven't dismissed the case. And they still have
• 42:42
  Speaker 5: lesser charges that they're going to pursue. He faced up
• 42:44
  Speaker 5: to 60 years because he stabbed four different people. And
• 42:48
  Speaker 5: all of the serious charges, essentially, he was acquitted on.
• 42:51
  Speaker 3: Good for him. Maybe he'll have a life.
• 42:53
  Speaker 5: But my heart breaks for the family of that boy
• 42:57
  Speaker 5: who was in a high school party and left in
• 43:01
  Speaker 5: a box. And that's an awful thing. And for kids
• 43:04
  Speaker 5: who bring knives to parties, To defend your ego. And
• 43:07
  Speaker 5: by the way, the last one of these I prosecuted
• 43:09
  Speaker 5: was it happened at a New Year's Eve party. And
• 43:12
  Speaker 5: that's exactly what the kid's defense was. And he testified
• 43:15
  Speaker 5: to was, well, I was cutting boxes at my job
• 43:17
  Speaker 5: that day. And that's why I had the knife.
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: Oh, really? Yeah.
• 43:20
  Speaker 5: And it was that you worked at a Calvin Klein store.
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: What was the verdict?
• 43:26
  Speaker 3: It was one of mine.
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: So you won?
• 43:29
  Speaker 3: It was a murder. It was a murder verdict. You
• 43:30
  Speaker 3: got life in prison. And by the way, F him. OK.
• 43:33
  Speaker 3: And that family was.
• 43:35
  Speaker 5: Absolutely brutalized by that. And I mean, that's something that
• 43:39
  Speaker 5: a lot of people don't. And thankfully, most people never
• 43:42
  Speaker 5: experience this. These ruin families, you know, and the term
• 43:46
  Speaker 5: closure is something that's one of my it's one of
• 43:49
  Speaker 5: my pet peeves. It doesn't exist when you're the mother
• 43:52
  Speaker 5: of a murder victim. And it was a New Year's
• 43:53
  Speaker 5: Eve party. And there was these this guy went with
• 43:56
  Speaker 5: his brother and a couple of his buddies. And some
• 43:58
  Speaker 5: some a-hole, my defendant, was having a bad night. He
• 44:01
  Speaker 5: was a rich kid from South Orange County. Um, he, again,
• 44:06
  Speaker 5: kind of spoiled, had a retail job, um, you know,
• 44:09
  Speaker 5: and he, his, he wanted to pick a fight and
• 44:12
  Speaker 5: he picked the fight with this, with the weakest kid
• 44:15
  Speaker 5: of this crew who was, you know, and he'd never
• 44:17
  Speaker 5: been in a fistfight in his life. So he starts
• 44:19
  Speaker 5: to flick the cigarette at him being that a-hole kid,
• 44:22
  Speaker 5: not realizing his big brother, who's an Air Force veteran,
• 44:26
  Speaker 5: who was there, who's like four years older, had just
• 44:28
  Speaker 5: gotten out of the Air Force and was about to
• 44:30
  Speaker 5: start school. Um, and he stuck up for his younger
• 44:33
  Speaker 5: brother and The defendant pulled out a knife, same exact thing,
• 44:38
  Speaker 5: swung at him, nicked one of the blood vessels on
• 44:43
  Speaker 5: the left side of his heart. And it's not like
• 44:48
  Speaker 5: TV where you get stabbed and people die. The big
• 44:51
  Speaker 5: brother finished the fight, won the fight, knocked the guy out, ran,
• 44:55
  Speaker 5: got about 100 yards away, and he didn't know he
• 44:57
  Speaker 5: was dead. And then he collapsed and died. And that family,
• 45:01
  Speaker 5: they were the nicest people.
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: And this was the vet?
• 45:04
  Speaker 3: He was the veteran Air Force vet.
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: Oh, my God.
• 45:05
  Speaker 3: You know, you get home from a war. Dead on
• 45:07
  Speaker 3: New Year's Eve.
• 45:08
  Speaker 5: Because some kid wanted to defend his ego with a knife.
• 45:10
  Speaker 5: And by kid, same age, like 1920, you know. And he,
• 45:15
  Speaker 5: that family, it destroys them. You know, they moved to
• 45:18
  Speaker 5: Virginia because they found horses to be therapeutic. Grew up
• 45:22
  Speaker 5: in Southern California. The sister had a horrible time with it.
• 45:25
  Speaker 5: The younger brother on the stand, it broke my heart
• 45:28
  Speaker 5: because he had to testify to all that. And, you know,
• 45:30
  Speaker 5: in his mind, if he was stronger, if he had,
• 45:33
  Speaker 5: if he was a better fighter or if he, you know,
• 45:35
  Speaker 5: then his big brother wouldn't have been dead. And it
• 45:37
  Speaker 5: was all some a-hole with a knife who pulls it
• 45:40
  Speaker 5: out in what should have just been a dust-up. I mean,
• 45:43
  Speaker 5: the fight shouldn't have happened in the first place. But look,
• 45:45
  Speaker 5: these guys got in two fights in the same night.
• 45:48
  Speaker 3: I don't know.
• 45:49
  Speaker 5: And look, presumed innocent, good for him. However, I know
• 45:53
  Speaker 5: a dozen prosecutors who would have won that and the
• 45:55
  Speaker 5: foreperson said there was no evidence of intent.
• 45:58
  Speaker 3: Sorry, buddy.
• 45:59
  Speaker 5: You know, and look, part of that really is You know,
• 46:03
  Speaker 5: part of the whole defund the police thing is there.
• 46:06
  Speaker 5: We need to have good prosecutors. We need to have
• 46:09
  Speaker 5: people with skills and dedication, but they're underpaid and there
• 46:14
  Speaker 5: are they're under supported. And in the state of California,
• 46:17
  Speaker 5: they are every life case. There's an appellate process where
• 46:22
  Speaker 5: every prosecutor is accused of something horrific, some sort of
• 46:25
  Speaker 5: dastardly prosecutorial misconduct that could they can get you disbarred.
• 46:30
  Speaker 5: And I fear we've reached a tipping point of skill
• 46:33
  Speaker 5: right now with a lot like we saw this in Diddy.
• 46:36
  Speaker 5: We saw this in Karen Reed.
• 46:37
  Speaker 3: We've seen this in a lot of cases.
• 46:38
  Speaker 1: Let's get to those. But I will just say a
• 46:40
  Speaker 1: little follow up on this thing is now they will
• 46:43
  Speaker 1: go forward, the victim's family, with civil cases in which
• 46:49
  Speaker 1: they'll sue him, sue his family, sue the people that
• 46:53
  Speaker 1: had the party prior to going to this party who
• 46:57
  Speaker 1: The parents have provided the alcohol. So, I mean, this
• 47:01
  Speaker 1: is why we never had parties at our house with alcohol.
• 47:06
  Speaker 1: I never could understand when I had friends that were like, well,
• 47:09
  Speaker 1: you know, we just let them have Trulies or whatever
• 47:12
  Speaker 1: after prom. And I'm like, what are you doing? Like,
• 47:15
  Speaker 1: why are you having this? Like the minute.
• 47:18
  Speaker 5: Liability is real on that, especially in a litigious state
• 47:21
  Speaker 5: like California.
• 47:21
  Speaker 1: I literally explain to my kids, I'm like, this is
• 47:25
  Speaker 1: our family.
• 47:25
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: You will inherit this. If you have a party and
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: something happens, we get sued. So, like, they didn't want
• 47:32
  Speaker 1: the parties. They weren't like, yeah, let's– oh, let me
• 47:35
  Speaker 1: just have all my friends over. I knew back in
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: the 80s that it was a liability to have people
• 47:41
  Speaker 1: partying and drinking at my house. And so it's like
• 47:44
  Speaker 1: I just cannot understand any parent that has– Even whether,
• 47:51
  Speaker 1: I don't care what you do. Oh, you get two
• 47:52
  Speaker 1: drink tickets. Kids bring in their own alcohol. Oh, we
• 47:55
  Speaker 1: checked all the backpacks. Why are you having the party?
• 47:58
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 47:58
  Speaker 1: Fuck it.
• 47:59
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 47:59
  Speaker 1: Like they can wait until they go to college. Like
• 48:01
  Speaker 1: what are you doing? Yeah.
• 48:03
  Speaker 5: Well, and I guarantee the defense of that civil case
• 48:05
  Speaker 5: is going to be who thinks anybody is going to
• 48:08
  Speaker 5: bring a knife to a high school party. That's going
• 48:10
  Speaker 5: to be the defense. They're going to say it's not
• 48:12
  Speaker 5: reasonably foreseeable that four hotheads are going to show up
• 48:15
  Speaker 5: armed with a deadly weapon.
• 48:16
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 48:16
  Speaker 3: And they're going to try to settle whatever– beef they
• 48:19
  Speaker 3: start or get started with them with a deadly weapon.
• 48:22
  Speaker 3: That's going to be the defense, you know?
• 48:23
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 48:24
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 48:25
  Speaker 1: Um, okay. Uh, speaking of other kids, this story just
• 48:29
  Speaker 1: came out. There's a 17 year old girl. She's accused
• 48:32
  Speaker 1: of killing her mother and her stepfather and then called
• 48:35
  Speaker 1: nine one nine one one. There isn't a lot on
• 48:37
  Speaker 1: this except that it was her six year old sister
• 48:41
  Speaker 1: who like found them in their room. Dad told the sister,
• 48:45
  Speaker 1: the sister called the 17 year old. They didn't know
• 48:48
  Speaker 1: who did it. It was like a shooting, like a Menendez. And,
• 48:52
  Speaker 1: you know, this was a few months ago. So she
• 48:54
  Speaker 1: did speak at the eulogy. I watched the video. you know,
• 49:00
  Speaker 1: I don't know if she used chat GPT to write
• 49:02
  Speaker 1: her eulogy, but it was very well written. It was,
• 49:05
  Speaker 1: you know, I'll miss you. You were so wonderful. She
• 49:08
  Speaker 1: speaks very highly of her stepdad, that he was a
• 49:11
  Speaker 1: wonderful father to her and all this other stuff. And
• 49:14
  Speaker 1: then just a couple days ago, she turned herself in.
• 49:18
  Speaker 1: Apparently her biological dad, I guess, brought her. She turned
• 49:21
  Speaker 1: herself in, responsible for the death of both of these people.
• 49:25
  Speaker 1: But they said they're still looking at other family members
• 49:30
  Speaker 1: and other people, as many as four people that also
• 49:33
  Speaker 1: might be arrested, which is like, what is this? I mean,
• 49:36
  Speaker 1: I'm guessing... Did she have a boyfriend that they didn't
• 49:40
  Speaker 1: want her to see anymore? Did some. But it's crazy
• 49:43
  Speaker 1: that she could go on and act normal and everything,
• 49:46
  Speaker 1: much like the Menendez brothers for months and months.
• 49:49
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 49:49
  Speaker 5: So this is and we don't know yet on this.
• 49:52
  Speaker 5: So it's going to be very interesting. They're trying her
• 49:54
  Speaker 5: as an adult. She faces, obviously, life in prison if
• 49:58
  Speaker 5: she's convicted. But this rings of a case I worked
• 50:02
  Speaker 5: on in Orange County, my Mullinex case, where it was
• 50:04
  Speaker 5: a boyfriend-girlfriend scenario where the mom did not approve of
• 50:07
  Speaker 5: the boyfriend. And they murdered her. And she was found
• 50:13
  Speaker 5: in Newport Bay. And this is kind of interesting. So
• 50:17
  Speaker 5: she's naked, the mom. And they dump her in Newport Harbor.
• 50:21
  Speaker 5: And all she had was– She'd been in the water
• 50:26
  Speaker 5: for a while, so we were having a really tough time.
• 50:28
  Speaker 1: When you say for a while, what is that? How
• 50:29
  Speaker 1: many days, weeks?
• 50:31
  Speaker 3: Over 24 hours. Oh, okay.
• 50:33
  Speaker 1: Okay?
• 50:33
  Speaker 3: But that's long enough to prune, right?
• 50:35
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 50:35
  Speaker 5: And to identify somebody, you usually do it with fingerprints
• 50:38
  Speaker 5: if there's been no call of the police. So we
• 50:40
  Speaker 5: have this woman, and her nails were perfect. She's obviously like,
• 50:45
  Speaker 5: you know, she was- Of a certain stature.
• 50:47
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah. And she'd had some work done on her boobs. Okay.
• 50:53
  Speaker 3: So she had to see it.
• 50:54
  Speaker 5: So- We couldn't identify her, and that's where every investigation starts.
• 50:57
  Speaker 5: You have to figure out who the person is, you know,
• 51:00
  Speaker 5: especially if the body's been dumped. And we're in there,
• 51:03
  Speaker 5: and we're looking.
• 51:04
  Speaker 3: At the photos.
• 51:05
  Speaker 5: And I was at the dock because we'd go to
• 51:07
  Speaker 5: our scenes, and one of these guys, his name was
• 51:09
  Speaker 5: Tom Voth, walks up with a sandwich. He was a
• 51:11
  Speaker 5: great detective. And he walks up, and he wasn't on
• 51:13
  Speaker 5: the case. But he looks, and he's like, boob job?
• 51:17
  Speaker 5: And we're tearing our clothes because we can't— figure out
• 51:21
  Speaker 5: her identity because the fingerprints didn't work. And we had no, no,
• 51:24
  Speaker 5: no calls for a missing woman. And, and I'll never
• 51:27
  Speaker 5: forget it. He's got a sandwich in his mouth. He's like,
• 51:29
  Speaker 5: he goes, you know, there's a serial number on the,
• 51:32
  Speaker 5: on the implants.
• 51:33
  Speaker 3: He's like there. And it's unique.
• 51:34
  Speaker 5: And none of us did. And it's like within 15 minutes,
• 51:38
  Speaker 5: we had her name and the investigation was off and running.
• 51:40
  Speaker 5: And that's, that was the thing, the boyfriend and the
• 51:43
  Speaker 5: daughter murdered her because she didn't approve of the boyfriend.
• 51:47
  Speaker 5: And they were driving across country. And when the police–
• 51:50
  Speaker 5: I want to say it was in Alabama when they
• 51:52
  Speaker 5: finally pulled him over.
• 51:53
  Speaker 1: How did they kill her?
• 51:55
  Speaker 3: They stabbed her. And, yeah.
• 51:59
  Speaker 1: Like stabbed her in the home and then wrapped her
• 52:01
  Speaker 1: up and threw her in.
• 52:01
  Speaker 3: The– Yeah, threw her in the bay.
• 52:03
  Speaker 1: And did– what was the final result? Did the girl
• 52:06
  Speaker 1: try to say, I didn't want it and it was
• 52:08
  Speaker 1: all my boyfriend's fault?
• 52:09
  Speaker 3: Yes, she did.
• 52:10
  Speaker 5: And she said she'd been kidnapped by her boyfriend. And
• 52:13
  Speaker 5: one of the key pieces of evidence in that is
• 52:15
  Speaker 5: she packed a vibrator. When they left and it's like
• 52:17
  Speaker 5: maybe the first kidnapping victim ever.
• 52:19
  Speaker 3: Hey, wait a second. I want to bring this.
• 52:20
  Speaker 5: So and when the when the state trooper in I
• 52:24
  Speaker 5: think it was Alabama pulled them over. It's been a
• 52:26
  Speaker 5: while since I looked at this one. But you could
• 52:29
  Speaker 5: hear her in the car on the on the dash
• 52:32
  Speaker 5: cam telling the boyfriend, shoot him, shoot him to the boyfriend.
• 52:36
  Speaker 5: And then it was like, oh, no, no. She was
• 52:38
  Speaker 5: saying that to the trooper to shoot the boyfriend, which,
• 52:41
  Speaker 5: of course, is nonsense. And then turns out she was
• 52:43
  Speaker 5: completely in on it. she was convicted and sentenced to
• 52:47
  Speaker 5: life in prison.
• 52:48
  Speaker 1: And so was he, obviously.
• 52:48
  Speaker 3: And so was the boyfriend, right.
• 52:52
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 52:53
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 52:53
  Speaker 3: So I don't know.
• 52:54
  Speaker 5: I'm really interested in the facts on this one. I
• 52:57
  Speaker 5: think the defense, what we can anticipate, they're going to
• 53:01
  Speaker 5: blame the stepdad, and maybe it's true or not. I
• 53:05
  Speaker 5: think that they're going to have problems with that eulogy
• 53:07
  Speaker 5: because if they say that he was molesting her, it's
• 53:10
  Speaker 5: going to be tough for them to come in and Well.
• 53:15
  Speaker 1: The Menendez brothers did eulogies too and said what wonderful
• 53:19
  Speaker 1: things about them and how great and playing tennis and
• 53:23
  Speaker 1: being a businessman. Speaking of which, what are your thoughts
• 53:28
  Speaker 1: since we're talking about young girls who killed their moms,
• 53:30
  Speaker 1: who got their boyfriend to do it? How do you
• 53:33
  Speaker 1: feel about Gypsy Rose and where she is today?
• 53:36
  Speaker 3: That's a tough one.
• 53:38
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 53:39
  Speaker 3: So here's the thing.
• 53:41
  Speaker 5: My view on this, of course, not one of my cases,
• 53:45
  Speaker 5: Gypsy Rose's reasons to murder.
• 53:47
  Speaker 3: Her mother were real. Right. I agree.
• 53:50
  Speaker 5: It's called Munchausen syndrome by proxy. And her mother passed
• 53:54
  Speaker 5: her off as being developmentally disabled and having all these things.
• 53:57
  Speaker 5: Her mother was a horrible human being who was, well,
• 54:01
  Speaker 5: she was mentally ill for sure. And what she put
• 54:04
  Speaker 5: her daughter through was horrific.
• 54:06
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 54:06
  Speaker 5: So Gypsy Rose getting out is a— I understand it. I
• 54:13
  Speaker 5: don't have a problem with it because of everything. You
• 54:16
  Speaker 5: talk about— we were talking about mitigating evidence in a death penalty.
• 54:19
  Speaker 5: That's a great example of mitigating evidence. My problem with
• 54:23
  Speaker 5: the Gypsy Rose case is her boyfriend, who essentially came
• 54:29
  Speaker 5: into this in a super misguided way.
• 54:31
  Speaker 1: Met her online. I mean, they weren't even like— Believed.
• 54:35
  Speaker 5: He was doing a good thing by killing the mom.
• 54:37
  Speaker 5: he's still doing life in prison. And I think that's
• 54:40
  Speaker 5: one of those things. There's a thing in the law
• 54:41
  Speaker 5: known as transferred intent. Like if you decide to murder me,
• 54:44
  Speaker 5: hopefully I never make you that mad, but if you
• 54:47
  Speaker 5: decide to murder me and you miss and you hit
• 54:49
  Speaker 5: somebody else in the studios, the intent that you have
• 54:53
  Speaker 5: to murder me is transferred to that other person, okay?
• 54:56
  Speaker 5: I think that you almost have to do the same
• 54:59
  Speaker 5: thing in reverse when you have something like this. If
• 55:01
  Speaker 5: her intent in murdering her mother is ameliorated and it's
• 55:04
  Speaker 5: mitigated and.
• 55:04
  Speaker 3: The slayer here that that she got to.
• 55:08
  Speaker 5: Do it um you know believed all that and it
• 55:11
  Speaker 5: was true like she really was horribly abused by her
• 55:13
  Speaker 5: mother i think that he needs to get the benefit
• 55:16
  Speaker 5: of that i that's that's my view it's.
• 55:18
  Speaker 1: So it's so interesting because i she has her own
• 55:21
  Speaker 1: reality show and i watched a little of it because
• 55:23
  Speaker 1: my friend was like i'm fascinated and you know it
• 55:27
  Speaker 1: is kind of strange she got a husband and She
• 55:30
  Speaker 1: decided all of a sudden when all the press ended
• 55:33
  Speaker 1: and she was just filming her reality show in their
• 55:35
  Speaker 1: boring Louisiana town, she was like, I don't want this.
• 55:38
  Speaker 1: She gets rid of that husband who looks just like
• 55:40
  Speaker 1: her mother, by the way. Then she goes back to
• 55:43
  Speaker 1: another boyfriend that she had that the viewers all felt
• 55:47
  Speaker 1: were gay, has his baby. Now she's divorcing him. And
• 55:52
  Speaker 1: allegedly there's letters where she's writing him saying, I know
• 55:56
  Speaker 1: you're gay and da-da-da-da. And that while she was in prison,
• 56:00
  Speaker 1: she was one of those women, allegedly, who would, you know,
• 56:03
  Speaker 1: get a lot of men to put money on the
• 56:06
  Speaker 1: books and all that kind of stuff and kind of
• 56:08
  Speaker 1: manipulate this. But I don't, you know, again, you're in prison.
• 56:12
  Speaker 1: What are you going to do? Like, you're a famous person.
• 56:14
  Speaker 1: You're having guys write you.
• 56:15
  Speaker 5: That's one of the few cases that you'll ever hear
• 56:18
  Speaker 5: me say, I kind of feel sorry for the killer.
• 56:20
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 56:21
  Speaker 3: Like the guy that's. Yeah. His appeals have been, I think,
• 56:25
  Speaker 3: up to this point, they've all been rejected, you know,
• 56:28
  Speaker 3: and technically, legally.
• 56:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 56:29
  Speaker 3: For very good reasons. It was a first degree murder
• 56:31
  Speaker 3: all the way.
• 56:32
  Speaker 1: And like, yeah, if you were that manipulated, that easy
• 56:34
  Speaker 1: to do it, who's to say who you're going to
• 56:36
  Speaker 1: get wrapped up with five years from now when you're out? Like, obviously,
• 56:40
  Speaker 1: your judgment is horrible.
• 56:41
  Speaker 3: Remember that case? I'm sorry.
• 56:43
  Speaker 1: No, go ahead.
• 56:44
  Speaker 5: That case in Texas was the same thing. She got
• 56:45
  Speaker 5: the special forces soldier who'd.
• 56:47
  Speaker 3: Been deployed a million times, got blown up, had brain
• 56:49
  Speaker 3: damage in Texas.
• 56:50
  Speaker 1: Oh, yes, we covered that one, yeah.
• 56:51
  Speaker 5: Yeah, and he went and committed the murder of her husband.
• 56:54
  Speaker 5: It wasn't real. She'd manipulated him to do it. But
• 56:57
  Speaker 5: that was another one.
• 56:58
  Speaker 3: Honestly, I felt... I felt sorry for that guy. I
• 57:02
  Speaker 3: really did. Because he believed that he was, it was
• 57:05
  Speaker 3: his girlfriend from high school. He thought he was helping her.
• 57:08
  Speaker 3: She said that she was horrifically abused sexually by this
• 57:11
  Speaker 3: guy and really manipulated this poor man who was a
• 57:16
  Speaker 3: war hero. And he went in and killed the husband.
• 57:17
  Speaker 1: Speaking of that, Sherry Papini came on the show. Everyone
• 57:21
  Speaker 1: knows the story, but it was very similar. in that
• 57:25
  Speaker 1: she shared with her boyfriend that she was just doing
• 57:28
  Speaker 1: communication on the phone with her old boyfriend, but she
• 57:30
  Speaker 1: was talking to him on the phone. Allegedly, she shared
• 57:35
  Speaker 1: that she wasn't in a good marriage. Now she's coming.
• 57:39
  Speaker 1: She came on my show, said she was talking to him,
• 57:43
  Speaker 1: never meant to see him that day, did not intend
• 57:45
  Speaker 1: to get in his car, did not intend to go
• 57:47
  Speaker 1: to Costa Mesa. I always thought, again... So he said
• 57:53
  Speaker 1: I was doing the right thing. I was being a
• 57:56
  Speaker 1: friend to her when she said, beat the crap out
• 57:58
  Speaker 1: of me and throw a hockey up my nose, hockey
• 58:00
  Speaker 1: pick up my nose or whatever, hockey stick. Burn me
• 58:03
  Speaker 1: with the, you know, Hobby Lobby branding to make me
• 58:07
  Speaker 1: look like that. I was always like, look, yes, I
• 58:10
  Speaker 1: don't think she's telling us all the truth now or then.
• 58:13
  Speaker 1: I really don't. However, what kind of guy agrees to
• 58:16
  Speaker 1: do that? So I always thought that was very, very bizarre. And,
• 58:21
  Speaker 1: you know.
• 58:22
  Speaker 4: Dumb ones. What?
• 58:23
  Speaker 3: Dumb ones. And we do see that. We see that
• 58:27
  Speaker 3: quite a bit.
• 58:28
  Speaker 5: Like my Naposki case, my Bill McLaughlin, the one that
• 58:32
  Speaker 5: was at Balboa Cove.
• 58:34
  Speaker 1: Oh, how we first met because I was renting the
• 58:36
  Speaker 1: house down the street.
• 58:36
  Speaker 3: Because you were like four houses down the road.
• 58:39
  Speaker 5: That's one where an extremely manipulative, horrific woman named Nanette Johnston.
• 58:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 58:45
  Speaker 5: Who manipulated this dummy named Eric Naposki, who was a.
• 58:50
  Speaker 5: Played for the NFL and same sort of thing. She
• 58:53
  Speaker 5: convinced him that she was being sexually assaulted, we believe,
• 58:56
  Speaker 5: by Bill McLaughlin, who never abused her in any way.
• 59:01
  Speaker 5: Gave her an awesome place for her kids, was kind
• 59:03
  Speaker 5: to her daughter and to her son, and was very wealthy.
• 59:06
  Speaker 3: And she was all about stealing from him.
• 59:10
  Speaker 1: Like you say, when there's a financial gain to it,
• 59:13
  Speaker 1: in that particular case, once he got rid of the
• 59:16
  Speaker 1: horrible man for her, they were looking for houses.
• 59:18
  Speaker 4: Big time.
• 59:19
  Speaker 2: Oh, yeah.
• 59:19
  Speaker 3: They knew that- He knew he was going to benefit,
• 59:21
  Speaker 3: and she was too. Right.
• 59:23
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 59:23
  Speaker 5: But he bought into it all, and he was manipulated,
• 59:27
  Speaker 5: and he deserves everything he gets.
• 59:28
  Speaker 3: Don't get me wrong.
• 59:29
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 59:30
  Speaker 5: It's just I'm not saying he's a good guy at all.
• 59:32
  Speaker 5: I'm saying that the guy the guys that these women.
• 59:34
  Speaker 3: Get to do their dirty work.
• 59:37
  Speaker 5: For lack of a better term, are they tend to
• 59:40
  Speaker 5: be really dumb. And Papini, that guy, he was he
• 59:43
  Speaker 5: he meant well and he didn't kill anybody. But, you know,
• 59:46
  Speaker 5: my problem and Sherry Papini is not a one off.
• 59:49
  Speaker 5: There are women. This is a thing where they will
• 59:52
  Speaker 5: stage kidnappings. There's another one in Georgia, very famously. And
• 59:55
  Speaker 5: the problem.
• 59:56
  Speaker 1: Oh, was that the girl that said I saw a
• 59:57
  Speaker 1: baby on the side of the road?
• 59:59
  Speaker 4: Yes.
• 59:59
  Speaker 3: Oh, yeah.
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 5: And it's almost a trope, right? It's almost like they
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 5: go to school for it. She left her Walkman on
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 5: the side of.
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 3: The road or her, you know, her iPad or whatever
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 3: it was. I know I'm aging myself there.
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 5: Whatever her mobile listening musical device was on the side
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 5: of the road. And that's exactly what Sherry Pippini did.
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 3: And it was staged.
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 5: I've done some commentary on that case. I've researched that case.
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 5: And it's a great get. I'm glad she came on
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 5: the show.
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 3: However, she's full of shit if she says that the
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 3: guy just happened to be there. He lived in Huntington Beach.
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 3: They were in Northern California. Absolutely. And I got to confess,
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 3: I didn't watch that episode yet, if you've aired it.
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 4: I know.
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 1: I did air it. I feel like, in talking about it,
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 1: if she really wanted to tell the truth, I think
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 1: I would forgive her and I would believe it if
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 1: she said this. I was talking to this guy. because
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 1: I was in a shitty marriage and I liked the attention.
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 1: It was an extracurricular thing that I could look forward to. And,
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 1: you know, and then it was like, okay, let's meet,
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 1: let's whatever. And what, how would my husband that doesn't
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 1: treat me well, that is not into me, how would
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 1: he react if I went missing? Then he would love me.
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 1: Then he would care for me. I think if the
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 1: intent was to go away for a couple of days
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 1: and then it got out of hand and went to
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 1: 22 days, I think the intent was not to be famous.
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 1: I think the intent was to try to make her
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 1: husband realize that she is so valuable and like have
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 1: this like moment. And I think the whole plan went
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 1: awry when she saw how much publicity she was getting.
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 1: And either that he then got weird realizing you've now
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 1: put me in a place where I could be a kidnapper.
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 1: So now you're not going to leave. But I still
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 1: don't feel even though she sat right across from me,
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 1: I don't feel like she was telling me all the truth.
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 1: And I'm bummed that I didn't ask her about the haircut.
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 5: Well, if you ever get her back on, let me know,
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 5: and I'll put together some cross-examination questions for you.
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 3: That I would love to ask her.
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 1: Because I want to ask her. So her hair, which
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 1: was like my length, was then chopped. And I always
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 1: thought that was weird when she said I was kidnapped
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 1: by these two.
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 3: Two Mexican women.
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 1: So I'm like, if they were looking because they thought
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 1: you were 15 and they wanted to traffic you, why
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 1: would they cut your valuable hair? But then when we
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 1: find out later, well, she said he was into S
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 1: & M and that's why she was beaten and all
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 1: his creepy stuff. I'm like, who cut your hair, though? Like,
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 1: that's not part of S & M. And then someone
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 1: was like, Heather, it was like a cute bob. It
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 1: wasn't like it was self-cut, but it wasn't like she
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 1: shaved her head or chopped it like a Barbie doll.
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 1: So I don't know.
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 5: The California jury instruction that every juror gets, which is.
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 5: from 500 years of common law experience. And that is
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 5: if somebody tells you one lie, you as a jury,
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 5: you're entitled to believe anything you want that they say
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 5: after that.
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 3: And you're also.
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 5: Entitled to disregard literally every single other word out of
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 5: their mouth. Sheriff Papini is one of those. I think
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 5: Lyle and Eric Menendez are another example of that. Liars
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 5: who lie, who lie. My problem with the Papinis of
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 5: the world is, number one, they suck up.
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 3: Our friend Dr.
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 5: Drew would say it is the ultimate display of narcissism
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 5: for them to do that. But what they do is
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 5: they suck up incredibly scarce, valuable resources when there are
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 5: real victims out there. And they have police. Those are
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 5: all hands on deck. Kidnapping things, I've worked those before.
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 5: You have the FBI coming in. You have like every
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 5: cop in the area drops what they're doing with real
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 5: victims and real crimes trying to find that person. So
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 5: it's a tremendous waste of resources. But the real problem
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 5: is when you have real victims on hard cases— When
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 5: jurors go in and they sit down and everybody remembers
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 5: the Sherry Papinis, they're far more likely to indulge wild
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 5: theories and wild defenses that go to the pure detriment
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 5: of actual victims of kidnappings and sexual abuse.
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 1: Like the couple who really– where the girl really was kidnapped.
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 3: Yes. That's right. That's right.
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 1: And that's that Netflix doc.
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 5: Also, same area, like Central California. And that's the effect
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 5: of that woman's narcissism and her– her husband seemed like
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 5: everything he was doing was appropriate. You know, like he was,
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 5: he was doing public pleas, trying to get her home.
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 5: It seemed like he really.
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 3: Did love her.
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 1: Now she kind of says that, you know, he came
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 1: in and he was miked the minute he saw her,
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 1: you know, and, um, I don't know. And I don't care.
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 1: Like it, it was hard though. It was interesting when
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 1: she was talking to me, you know, because she was
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 1: a guest, you know, I wanted to get as much
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 1: out and be polite. But then when I listened back
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 1: before publishing it, I did, it's when someone's looking at you,
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 1: you know, in the eye, it's like, she lied to
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 1: my face. It's easier to believe that when you're actually
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 1: listening with no visual, which I thought was fascinating that
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 1: I was like, Oh, okay.
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 5: I would love to cross that woman. And I, and
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 5: I have, you have a bigger heart than me. I
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 5: have zero freaking sympathy for her.
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 1: Well, I, I, I, I was always like, there were
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 1: things I've talked about it. There were things that I
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 1: was like, And then when she reached out to come
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 1: on the show, I was like, I knew she was
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 1: kind of making the rounds, but I still was like,
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 1: I've spent so many hours talking about this. I shared
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 1: about how I had like a template for a movie
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 1: idea of like a comedian that fakes her own kidnapping
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 1: just to like, you know, get some press on hard copy.
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 1: Like I thought, so to me, it was always fascinating
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 1: as a woman that needs attention. But getting to this,
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 1: we'll move on. The Menendez brothers could have their murder
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 1: conviction thrown out This was today's TMZ. I don't know
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 1: if there's any more on this or if they just
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 1: like to tease us with it for a headline every
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 1: once in a while. What's the latest?
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I don't see that happening. The Ninth Circuit, for
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 5: your viewers that are interested, there's a Ninth Circuit opinion
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 5: on this that is scathing about the Menendez brothers, how
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 5: much they lied, that affirmed their original conviction. And they
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 5: were very lucky to get their resentencing approved. My problem
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 5: with this is that a lot of people who advocated
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 5: for them after watching the Netflix special believe they were
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 5: advocating for victims of sexual abuse.
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 3: And they were they received life without possibility of parole.
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 5: The people that are serving prison time for with life
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 5: without possibility of parole are the worst of the worst.
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 5: It means that they were most of them are special
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 5: circumstance murderers. Some of them are kidnappers like my case
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 5: where they severed the penis in the desert. They're the
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 5: most violent, the most brutal, and they're all lining up
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 5: now in California for their resentencings as.
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 3: A result of this.
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 5: So the precedent, we exist in a system with what's
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 5: known as stare decisis. So it's what came before. We
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 5: base our rulings and our.
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 3: Law on other cases. It's called precedent. This sets a
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 3: horrific precedent.
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 5: I know this is controversial among some of your viewers
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 5: that love the Menendez brothers.
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 3: I'm not a fan. I think that they and.
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 5: If you take it at its absolute worst, let's say
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 5: Jose Menendez did everything they said and more. There's no
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 5: reason you don't get a free murder of the mother.
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 5: And each one of them is an individual. People talk
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 5: about them as being the parents. And she had a
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 5: right to live. And Lyle Menendez reloaded the shotgun and
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 5: put it to her face and literally blew her face off.
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 5: She was still alive somehow. after receiving multiple shots.
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 3: And then they.
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 5: Proceeded to lie to everybody from the detectives to the
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 5: 911 operator. And the only reason Lyle didn't testify in
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 5: the second trial was because he was caught on a
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 5: hot mic with a court group, everybody forgets this, where
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 5: he was bragging about how well he lied during the
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 5: first trial. So again, like Papini, when you got people
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 5: that lie, lie, lie again, get caught in lies, they
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 5: lied about the shotguns. There's the prosecutor, one of the
• 1:07:51
  Speaker 5: two in the original trials, a guy named Lester Kuriyama,
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 5: And it was something that they trained us in, in
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 5: the DA's office because they, he caught Eric in the
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 5: lies about the shotguns and obtaining the shotguns. It's called
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 5: putting the witness in a box. And he got, these
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 5: guys lied over and over and over again. They had
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 5: cell phones in their possession in the months leading up
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 5: to it. I know Mark, Gary goes, I like Mark.
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 5: We get along great. We've done a bunch of panels together.
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 5: We had cases together back in the day. Mark, I
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 5: think is a, is a, is a fine defense attorney,
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 5: but he's doing a job, you know? And, um, You know,
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 5: good for these guys. They did 35 years.
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 1: I do think if they got out, I definitely don't
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 1: think they'd be a dangerous society.
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 3: I agree.
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 1: But I understand how the law works. Karen Reid, she
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 1: got a book deal. Now, we know a book deal comes.
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 1: We know a TV show and all these other things
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 1: will probably come as well, either with her being a
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 1: part of it or someone just writing from afar. Along
• 1:08:47
  Speaker 1: with unpopular opinions, I'm going to let you share yours now.
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 1: What did you think of the whole thing?
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 5: So number one, I got to preface it. She's presumed innocent.
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 5: You know, that's the way our system works.
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 3: She was acquitted. Good for her. Okay.
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 5: What breaks my heart about this case is that the
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 5: man that died here, everybody forgets, he adopted his sister's
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 5: two kids. So his sister's kids, his sister and her
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 5: husband were.
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 3: Killed in a tragic car accident. This is a good guy.
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 1: No, they didn't die in a car accident.
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 3: Didn't they die in a car accident?
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 4: No.
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 1: The sister died first, and then like months later, the
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 1: husband died of like– the sister was sick, and then
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 1: months later, the husband died of like a heart attack.
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 4: Okay.
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 3: I stand corrected.
• 1:09:34
  Speaker 1: And then he was raising the kids.
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 3: He adopted the kids.
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 1: He was raising the kids. And I think he was great.
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 1: That still doesn't mean that if she didn't do it–
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 1: Of course.
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 4: Of course.
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 1: What did you think of all– I mean, I can
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 1: see why they ran with thinking that she hit him
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 1: with a car for a number of reasons, including her
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 1: saying it on the scene.
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 3: Because she hit him with the car also?
• 1:09:55
  Speaker 1: Well, what about the woman that said he was not
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 1: hit with a car, emphatically? I thought that was a
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 1: pretty great moment.
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 3: So, again, she's presumed innocent. I know Alan Jackson, the
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 3: defense lawyer.
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 5: He's a buddy of mine. And we came up— I was
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 5: in Orange County. He came up in the ranks. He
• 1:10:10
  Speaker 5: is an immensely talented trial lawyer.
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 3: He's a good dude. He is— He's the real deal.
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 5: And I think that the prosecution from the very beginning,
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 5: they over filed the case. Originally they, they went for
• 1:10:21
  Speaker 5: a first degree murder because of all the acrimony and
• 1:10:23
  Speaker 5: the problems in their relationship and the 53 voicemails, you know,
• 1:10:27
  Speaker 5: where she kept saying, and I don't think I'll ever
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 5: hear the term again. And I can swear on your,
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 5: on your show, right?
• 1:10:31
  Speaker 3: Motherfucker, motherfucker.
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 5: You know, she, that's worth a listen just for, you know,
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 5: she clearly believed that he was alive afterwards because she
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 5: kept leaving these.
• 1:10:41
  Speaker 1: Voicemails, um, The only thing I was going to say,
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 1: because that's the way I think about things. So I
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 1: do think when she left, she thought he was in
• 1:10:49
  Speaker 1: the party. Okay? This is one theory. And then she
• 1:10:54
  Speaker 1: left all those messages. Again, just like the young girls
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 1: at the Idaho house, when you've had lots of drinks,
• 1:11:02
  Speaker 1: and then when she woke up then at 4.45 a.m.
• 1:11:04
  Speaker 1: and he wasn't there.
• 1:11:05
  Speaker 3: If.
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 1: I thought I left my fucker boyfriend who's a swinger
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 1: or whatever at the house and he wasn't there at 445.
• 1:11:14
  Speaker 1: I would still be like, okay, like we're done. I
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 1: wouldn't immediately panic and think something must have happened at
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 1: that house. I better call my friends to come pick
• 1:11:24
  Speaker 1: me up and take him. But I think she panicked
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 1: because I think there was one moment if just Karen,
• 1:11:31
  Speaker 1: Karen Cole, just give me a minute. If there might've
• 1:11:34
  Speaker 1: been one minute in the back of her mind as
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 1: she was leaving angrily that he might have, he might've
• 1:11:39
  Speaker 1: gotten in a fight in the house. He might've walked out.
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 1: And just at that moment was like, wait. And then
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 1: she inadvertently felt like she hit something. Didn't really, didn't
• 1:11:48
  Speaker 1: stop or think and was like, fuck it. So drunk,
• 1:11:51
  Speaker 1: drove home, yelled all the messages, went to bed, woke up.
• 1:11:55
  Speaker 1: And then a few hours later, still drunk a little bit,
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 1: but remembering, I think something bad happened. Because otherwise, you
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 1: would just be like, and on top of it, you
• 1:12:06
  Speaker 1: never came home? Like you wouldn't, what would make you
• 1:12:09
  Speaker 1: think that something bad happened at a house party besides
• 1:12:12
  Speaker 1: you having sex with a girl that isn't you?
• 1:12:14
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 1: That's the only thing. And I also think it's interesting
• 1:12:17
  Speaker 1: that all the people that they do think are responsible
• 1:12:20
  Speaker 1: for it, the McCabe girl and the Alberts, that they
• 1:12:25
  Speaker 1: did interviews after. I'm kind of like, if I knew
• 1:12:28
  Speaker 1: I was seen as somewhat of a suspect after I
• 1:12:31
  Speaker 1: gave testimony and the whole world thinks that my family
• 1:12:35
  Speaker 1: is in this conspiracy, I wouldn't be doing interviews, but
• 1:12:39
  Speaker 1: who knows?
• 1:12:39
  Speaker 5: Or you might be because that turtle boy guy had
• 1:12:42
  Speaker 5: people picketing in front of your house and you've been
• 1:12:44
  Speaker 5: accused of a murder you didn't commit and you'd want
• 1:12:46
  Speaker 5: to set the record straight. And by the way, you
• 1:12:48
  Speaker 5: got a bunch of cops inside a house and they
• 1:12:50
  Speaker 5: murder somebody inside and their grand plan to get him
• 1:12:52
  Speaker 5: near to the body is to dump him in the
• 1:12:54
  Speaker 5: snow in the driveway.
• 1:12:54
  Speaker 3: I mean, that's absurd.
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 4: Okay.
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 1: The other thing I'm thinking, which we'll never know, The
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 1: only person that knows what happens is the dog, okay? Dogs,
• 1:13:04
  Speaker 1: once AI can figure out what a dog is thinking,
• 1:13:06
  Speaker 1: think how many crimes we'll solve, okay? From OJ to whatever.
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 1: But the other thing I was thinking is, if you
• 1:13:13
  Speaker 1: want to say that somehow, yes, he was beaten up,
• 1:13:16
  Speaker 1: but yes, a car hit him without intent, like just
• 1:13:19
  Speaker 1: being drunk and hitting. I always wondered if they got
• 1:13:23
  Speaker 1: in a physical fight, the dog scratched him, they got
• 1:13:25
  Speaker 1: in a physical fight, but he left drunk. with his
• 1:13:28
  Speaker 1: two feet walking out. Something happens. He either collapsed or
• 1:13:31
  Speaker 1: the car hit him and he's on the ground. Then
• 1:13:34
  Speaker 1: the Higgins guy leaves and is like, holy shit. What
• 1:13:40
  Speaker 1: the fuck just like he left. He was fine. Like, yeah,
• 1:13:42
  Speaker 1: I hit him. But like and that's when he starts
• 1:13:45
  Speaker 1: calling Albert. And that's when they stay in the house
• 1:13:47
  Speaker 1: when the cops come because they they didn't know that
• 1:13:49
  Speaker 1: they killed him. But something happened between him getting hit
• 1:13:53
  Speaker 1: in the house and him walking out of the house.
• 1:13:55
  Speaker 1: I don't think he died in the house and they
• 1:13:57
  Speaker 1: lifted him up and placed him there.
• 1:13:59
  Speaker 5: I know this was a this was a botched investigation
• 1:14:02
  Speaker 5: and it was a botched prosecution from the very beginning.
• 1:14:05
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 1:14:05
  Speaker 5: And against an immensely talented defense lawyer. who outgunned the
• 1:14:09
  Speaker 5: prosecution from the word go in both trials. And that's,
• 1:14:13
  Speaker 5: you know, and I think that that accident, the accident
• 1:14:15
  Speaker 5: that you were talking about is the last time I
• 1:14:17
  Speaker 5: was on the show. And I got, I got tons
• 1:14:19
  Speaker 5: of heat from your juicy viewers.
• 1:14:20
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 1:14:21
  Speaker 1: So I, we, I will, we will do it.
• 1:14:24
  Speaker 3: I have done a million of these.
• 1:14:26
  Speaker 6: Okay.
• 1:14:27
  Speaker 3: This is a, this is so average.
• 1:14:30
  Speaker 5: It's been all the, the drunken accident that kills somebody
• 1:14:33
  Speaker 5: are a dime a dozen everywhere. And she was on
• 1:14:36
  Speaker 5: video at the falls and, She had a million frigging drinks.
• 1:14:40
  Speaker 3: She had a very high blood alcohol level.
• 1:14:43
  Speaker 5: In the data recorder on the car, she had a
• 1:14:45
  Speaker 5: 74% acceleration rate going backwards, which is punching it. You
• 1:14:51
  Speaker 5: put all those pieces together, but they over-filed it as
• 1:14:54
  Speaker 5: a first-degree murder, which it clearly never was. So the
• 1:14:58
  Speaker 5: question in cases like that is, is this a gross
• 1:15:03
  Speaker 5: vehicular manslaughter, which is an accident, or is it an
• 1:15:06
  Speaker 5: implied malice murder which is also an accident. So they
• 1:15:10
  Speaker 5: misfiled it.
• 1:15:11
  Speaker 3: They misprosecuted it.
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 1: So do you think if at the time she's freaking out,
• 1:15:16
  Speaker 1: I can't believe I hit him, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,
• 1:15:18
  Speaker 1: and then they were like, we're arresting you for manslaughter,
• 1:15:23
  Speaker 1: and then she gets an attorney to defend her on manslaughter,
• 1:15:26
  Speaker 1: not first-degree murder, what, in your opinion, say that was
• 1:15:31
  Speaker 1: the case, because she's drunk and she doesn't remember and
• 1:15:33
  Speaker 1: she believes it, it's what she thought when she woke
• 1:15:35
  Speaker 1: up at 4.45 a.m., What would you think the result
• 1:15:39
  Speaker 1: would have been, like three years in prison?
• 1:15:40
  Speaker 5: First of all, we never hear about this case. This
• 1:15:42
  Speaker 5: happens every weekend somewhere in the United.
• 1:15:44
  Speaker 1: States where somebody drunk hits.
• 1:15:46
  Speaker 5: Somebody, hits some kid on a bike on accident. These
• 1:15:50
  Speaker 5: are accidental deaths. And look, she was acquitted of even that.
• 1:15:54
  Speaker 5: So I got to say, she's presumed innocent. She's innocent
• 1:15:57
  Speaker 5: in the law.
• 1:15:57
  Speaker 1: I'm an attorney.
• 1:15:59
  Speaker 3: But what do.
• 1:16:00
  Speaker 1: You think she would have gotten had they never gone
• 1:16:02
  Speaker 1: for first degree? Like do you think they would have
• 1:16:04
  Speaker 1: settled and she would have done like a couple years?
• 1:16:06
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:16:07
  Speaker 5: So this would be a– and it depends on the state.
• 1:16:10
  Speaker 5: But a gross vehicular manslaughter where somebody who's intoxicated who
• 1:16:14
  Speaker 5: hits somebody, again, state by state, they'll wind up getting–
• 1:16:19
  Speaker 5: that's typically like somewhere in the five-year range. Maybe they're
• 1:16:24
  Speaker 5: out in three because it's an accidental death where they're drunk.
• 1:16:27
  Speaker 5: That's what you see.
• 1:16:28
  Speaker 3: A lot. Some version of that.
• 1:16:30
  Speaker 5: And again, the sentencing range depends on state by state.
• 1:16:33
  Speaker 5: I think it's 11 years in California is the penalty
• 1:16:38
  Speaker 5: for gross. I could be wrong on that. And I
• 1:16:40
  Speaker 5: think they've changed it recently, but somewhere in there. And
• 1:16:42
  Speaker 5: then you do, sometimes you'll do 50%. So that'd be
• 1:16:45
  Speaker 5: five and a half years actual. Sometimes there's a range
• 1:16:48
  Speaker 5: of sentences that are available, but that's the type of
• 1:16:51
  Speaker 5: thing that you see. Somebody accidentally hits a kid on
• 1:16:53
  Speaker 5: a bike and maybe it's the first DUI or they're
• 1:16:56
  Speaker 5: drunk and they're trying to, Make a phone call on
• 1:16:59
  Speaker 5: their cell phone. Accidents happen all the time. Drunken accidents happen.
• 1:17:02
  Speaker 5: Somebody dies in every state every weekend in a case
• 1:17:06
  Speaker 5: like this. But the reason why there was so much,
• 1:17:08
  Speaker 5: she's pretty. Jackson is amazing, Alan Jackson. And they went
• 1:17:14
  Speaker 5: with this first-degree murder theory of a police officer in
• 1:17:16
  Speaker 5: the snow, and then that's where the sensation comes.
• 1:17:19
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 1:17:20
  Speaker 5: And then we have the conspiracy theories and the online sleuths,
• 1:17:23
  Speaker 5: and we're off to the races. We never would have
• 1:17:25
  Speaker 5: heard about this if the prosecution had handled it correctly.
• 1:17:27
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 1:17:28
  Speaker 3: And it would have been absolutely average if the police
• 1:17:31
  Speaker 3: had done the investigation the right way.
• 1:17:33
  Speaker 1: Last thing, Diddy, he's being sentenced October 3rd. My question is,
• 1:17:38
  Speaker 1: why do they do that where they keep him in
• 1:17:41
  Speaker 1: prison for several months? Is it because they think he's
• 1:17:45
  Speaker 1: not going to get that much time, so at least
• 1:17:46
  Speaker 1: he was in prison for like a year throughout it?
• 1:17:49
  Speaker 1: What is the motivation? Why is it three months away?
• 1:17:51
  Speaker 5: Okay, so it could be a couple different things. But
• 1:17:53
  Speaker 5: in the federal system, judges place a great deal of
• 1:17:56
  Speaker 5: weight on essentially the federal probation department will do an
• 1:18:02
  Speaker 5: assessment and they will make a sentencing recommendation for the
• 1:18:05
  Speaker 5: Mann Act violations here.
• 1:18:07
  Speaker 3: So the federal judges.
• 1:18:08
  Speaker 5: Tend to place a lot of weight in the federal
• 1:18:11
  Speaker 5: probation department's investigation. And they will almost always go through
• 1:18:17
  Speaker 5: that process. I think the reason why the court didn't
• 1:18:20
  Speaker 5: release them immediately is either the court intends to impose
• 1:18:23
  Speaker 5: more time or I think, and just This is pure
• 1:18:29
  Speaker 5: speculation by me. Remember when he was using other prisoners'
• 1:18:33
  Speaker 5: code numbers to call people from the jail? Remember when
• 1:18:36
  Speaker 5: he got in trouble for that?
• 1:18:37
  Speaker 3: That is the type of stuff that pisses judges off
• 1:18:41
  Speaker 3: because you can't follow the rules in jail. Judges, especially
• 1:18:44
  Speaker 3: federal judges, tend to take that personally. So you think
• 1:18:48
  Speaker 3: they're giving them a leash law?
• 1:18:50
  Speaker 1: Leash to fuck up?
• 1:18:51
  Speaker 2: No, no.
• 1:18:51
  Speaker 5: I think that when he did that, when he did
• 1:18:54
  Speaker 5: that originally, he pissed off this judge.
• 1:18:56
  Speaker 3: And that's why. Yeah. Now that's my guess. But look,
• 1:18:59
  Speaker 3: the Mann Act is a morality crime. It's a prostitution crime.
• 1:19:04
  Speaker 5: It's something that was designed essentially to to try to
• 1:19:08
  Speaker 5: go after pimps around the turn of the century. And
• 1:19:10
  Speaker 5: this is like, this is prohibition era type stuff.
• 1:19:14
  Speaker 3: It is.
• 1:19:16
  Speaker 5: Every lonely divorced guy in New York City, where I've
• 1:19:19
  Speaker 5: been spending a bunch of time.
• 1:19:20
  Speaker 3: For the ABC stuff lately, who gets.
• 1:19:22
  Speaker 5: Divorced and pays for an Uber for some sex worker
• 1:19:26
  Speaker 5: to come across from New Jersey across the bridge. That's
• 1:19:31
  Speaker 5: technically a Man Act violation. It is some of the
• 1:19:34
  Speaker 5: least offensive crimes. It's a morality crime. I don't– and
• 1:19:38
  Speaker 5: I could be wrong here. I just can't imagine a
• 1:19:40
  Speaker 5: big– Sentence.
• 1:19:43
  Speaker 3: A big sentence. Can I tell a funny story along
• 1:19:45
  Speaker 3: with this?
• 1:19:45
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:19:46
  Speaker 5: Okay, so now that I'm– since I'm spending all this
• 1:19:48
  Speaker 5: time in New York, I've been meeting all these fancy people. Okay,
• 1:19:51
  Speaker 5: and I've got a friend who knows this billionaire guy
• 1:19:54
  Speaker 5: who has a party over Fourth of July.
• 1:19:55
  Speaker 3: Weekend, and I get invited to it.
• 1:19:57
  Speaker 5: And they've got this awesome rhythm and blues band from
• 1:20:01
  Speaker 5: New Orleans, and it's what you'd expect. It's in the Hamptons,
• 1:20:05
  Speaker 5: which– It's super fancy. And you've been there. I've never
• 1:20:08
  Speaker 5: been there before, like last summer. And it's like, it's
• 1:20:10
  Speaker 5: where all the rich people go from New York in
• 1:20:12
  Speaker 5: the summertime. So I'm at this crazy party and I'm
• 1:20:16
  Speaker 5: standing next to this kid who's watching the music and
• 1:20:19
  Speaker 5: we strike up a conversation. Couldn't have been nicer. Couldn't
• 1:20:22
  Speaker 5: have been more respectful. And we're talking about the music.
• 1:20:26
  Speaker 5: And so my friend.
• 1:20:27
  Speaker 3: Who was our, she goes, hey, do you know who
• 1:20:30
  Speaker 3: that is? That's Diddy's son, Quincy. And so, and I
• 1:20:33
  Speaker 3: just got to say.
• 1:20:34
  Speaker 1: Is he the oldest one?
• 1:20:35
  Speaker 3: I don't know where he fits on it.
• 1:20:36
  Speaker 1: Because there's three.
• 1:20:37
  Speaker 3: Three reviewers.
• 1:20:38
  Speaker 1: There's two or three. Quincy, Justin, and Christian, I think.
• 1:20:41
  Speaker 5: Yeah, regardless of how anybody feels about Diddy, and I
• 1:20:44
  Speaker 5: know that's– passions run deep on that for very good reasons. Quincy,
• 1:20:49
  Speaker 5: in my 30-minute conversation, couldn't have been a nicer kid
• 1:20:52
  Speaker 5: for what it's worth.
• 1:20:53
  Speaker 1: But you also, you know, aren't a cute girl on
• 1:20:55
  Speaker 1: a yacht. Parting hard and being a vulnerable physician.
• 1:20:59
  Speaker 3: I have very little to worry about when it comes
• 1:21:00
  Speaker 3: to baby oil.
• 1:21:02
  Speaker 1: There are busboys all over L.A. that said O.J. was
• 1:21:04
  Speaker 1: the nicest guy in the world. You know, you weren't Nicole.
• 1:21:08
  Speaker 3: Very true.
• 1:21:09
  Speaker 1: Speaking of which, thank you so much for coming. And
• 1:21:14
  Speaker 1: for people that still have not bought your book and
• 1:21:17
  Speaker 1: want a good juicy book to read, The Book of Murder,
• 1:21:20
  Speaker 1: where can they get it? Where can they follow you?
• 1:21:22
  Speaker 5: So Matt Murphy Law on Instagram. And I will respond
• 1:21:27
  Speaker 5: to all.
• 1:21:30
  Speaker 3: Of the DMs.
• 1:21:31
  Speaker 5: If anybody wants to find me, follow me, and send
• 1:21:33
  Speaker 5: me a DM, I will respond. Please be kind. Last
• 1:21:37
  Speaker 5: time I just got ripped on the comments for my
• 1:21:40
  Speaker 5: thoughts on Karen Reid before she was acquitted.
• 1:21:42
  Speaker 1: But just please don't hold mean comments against me. I
• 1:21:45
  Speaker 1: don't control what people write my guests.
• 1:21:48
  Speaker 3: Right, right. A lot of passion out there. Yeah.
• 1:21:50
  Speaker 5: It's available everywhere. It's Disney Books, it's Hyperion Publishing, but Amazon.
• 1:21:55
  Speaker 5: It's also the Audible. And this is, again, really good
• 1:21:58
  Speaker 5: for me.
• 1:21:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, people love an Audible for a long trip.
• 1:22:01
  Speaker 3: I read it myself.
• 1:22:02
  Speaker 5: It's 4.9 stars still. And Disney's happy. It's sold a bunch.
• 1:22:07
  Speaker 5: I just submitted the proposal for my next book on
• 1:22:10
  Speaker 5: serial killers.
• 1:22:11
  Speaker 3: We submitted it Friday.
• 1:22:14
  Speaker 1: Love it.
• 1:22:14
  Speaker 5: So yeah, hopefully it goes well. But this is This
• 1:22:18
  Speaker 5: chronicles my career in the homicide unit. I talk about
• 1:22:21
  Speaker 5: the things I learned. I kind of take the reader
• 1:22:23
  Speaker 5: through the 17 years I spent, you know, the different
• 1:22:26
  Speaker 5: kinds of murder cases, the stuff I did. I did
• 1:22:28
  Speaker 5: the Golden State Killer case that's actually not in the book.
• 1:22:30
  Speaker 5: Rodney Alcala is a dating game killer. Tom and Jackie Hawks,
• 1:22:35
  Speaker 5: Ed Shin, some of my more notable cases.
• 1:22:38
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much. I always appreciate when you come.
• 1:22:40
  Speaker 3: You're a great friend. I love being here.
• 1:22:41
  Speaker 1: This was great. Thank you. Everybody go to HeatherMcDowell.net. to
• 1:22:45
  Speaker 1: get your tickets to my show in Vegas. It is
• 1:22:48
  Speaker 1: selling out quick. So go get that November 14th, heathermontel.net.
• 1:22:53
  Speaker 1: Thank you.
• 1:22:53
  Speaker 4: Bye.