Latest / Wrongful Conviction / #022 Jason Flom with Kristine Bunch and Obie Anthony (Live from the Innocence Network Conference 2017)

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#022 Jason Flom with Kristine Bunch and Obie Anthony (Live from the Innocence Network Conference 2017) · Wrongful Conviction

0:05
Speaker 1: With the police banging on the door open up.
0:10
Speaker 2: The choice to be in that lineup was the last
0:12
Speaker 2: choice that made as a free man. A year later,
0:15
Speaker 2: I ended up writing the system.
0:18
Speaker 3: I'm going to be one of those people who everyone
0:20
Speaker 3: in the world is going to think as a monster
0:22
Speaker 3: or suspect as a monster for the rest of my life,
0:24
Speaker 3: and I'm just going to have to come to peace
0:25
Speaker 3: with that.
0:27
Speaker 4: Somebody was able to look at my picture in the
0:29
Speaker 4: database and say that I was somewhere where I definitely wasn't.
0:34
Speaker 5: I overheard three of the jailers discussing what part they
0:37
Speaker 5: might have to play in my hanging.
0:39
Speaker 6: They had been told that two.
0:40
Speaker 3: Prison officers would have to participate in my execution.
0:45
Speaker 6: Now I walked back inside that prison for the last time. Man,
0:48
Speaker 6: all help broke loose.
0:49
Speaker 1: But Welcome to another episode of Ronful Conviction with Jason Flamm.
1:04
Speaker 1: This is part two of the San Diego series, where
1:06
Speaker 1: we'll be doing shorter interviews than usual because we have
1:09
Speaker 1: so many incredible people here at the Ennisis Network conference. Today,
1:13
Speaker 1: I'll be interviewing Christine Bunch and Ob Anthony.
1:16
Speaker 5: The tragedy for Christine Bunch began in nineteen ninety five
1:20
Speaker 5: when a fire in this Greensburg mobile home killed her
1:23
Speaker 5: three year old son.
1:24
Speaker 3: The mother who spent nearly seventeen years in prison for
1:27
Speaker 3: arson and murder after state fire investigators hit evidence.
1:31
Speaker 2: That could have cleared her, Christine Bunch has maintained her
1:34
Speaker 2: innocence all.
1:34
Speaker 3: Along years of anguish for a crime she says she
1:37
Speaker 3: did not commit.
1:38
Speaker 5: Now over all charges were eventually dropped against Christine Bunch
1:42
Speaker 5: after the original report surface.
1:44
Speaker 1: And Indiana mother who spent sixteen years in prison in
1:47
Speaker 1: the killing of her young son is free tonight after
1:50
Speaker 1: charges against her are dropped. Christine, welcome, Thank you. We
1:53
Speaker 1: are in the Sunshine in San Diego where we are
1:57
Speaker 1: broadcasting from the Innocence Network, which is a conference where
2:02
Speaker 1: we bring together this year. I think we have two
2:05
Speaker 1: hundred dexonrees. Yes, we do, with people from the movement,
2:09
Speaker 1: social workers, attorneys, counselors, teachers, law students, law students, press.
2:16
Speaker 1: It's really it's I mean, the amount of positive energy
2:19
Speaker 1: that's being generated here this weekend is remarkable. Wouldn't you say.
2:23
Speaker 2: It's incredible and you can kizz.
2:25
Speaker 1: And you are right in the middle of it. I
2:27
Speaker 1: don't know your energy is so incredible. So Christine was
2:31
Speaker 1: wrongfully convicted in one of the worst possible scenarios, which
2:35
Speaker 1: is that she lost her child. Her three year old son, Anthony,
2:39
Speaker 1: was killed in a fire in your home. And we
2:42
Speaker 1: know now, and I think they knew then that the
2:46
Speaker 1: arson science is not really science. Not only did they
2:50
Speaker 1: know that, but also they really knew that this was
2:53
Speaker 1: not arson. Why they felt they wanted to go after
2:55
Speaker 1: you in the way they did, I don't know they
2:57
Speaker 1: will ever understand, because it's like trying to understand evil.
3:00
Speaker 1: But one way or another, you were wrongfully convicted. And
3:03
Speaker 1: this Innocent Network conference is about overcoming and triumphing, and
3:08
Speaker 1: you are certainly a great example of that. First, let's
3:10
Speaker 1: go back to that awful time and just give the
3:12
Speaker 1: audience a sense of what was going on. You were
3:15
Speaker 1: very young at the time, right.
3:17
Speaker 5: I was twenty one and a single mother, working, going
3:21
Speaker 5: to school, and I had my three year old, and
3:24
Speaker 5: so my life was just busy and full.
3:27
Speaker 2: And one morning I woke up.
3:30
Speaker 5: And was surprised because I thought it was foggy in
3:33
Speaker 5: the house, and in truth, it was on fire. And
3:38
Speaker 5: it takes a minute for your brain to realize what's
3:41
Speaker 5: happening what you're doing in that moment, because you're just
3:46
Speaker 5: frozen with fear, and it's like your mind goes blank.
3:50
Speaker 5: And then it's like you're running through mud trying to
3:53
Speaker 5: figure out what do I do? And I'm throwing things
3:56
Speaker 5: on it because you always hear in school, but we
4:01
Speaker 5: don't realize that the materials we use now are synthetics
4:04
Speaker 5: and they just melt. They don't smother it. It's burning
4:07
Speaker 5: in your hands. So I ran out the door to
4:10
Speaker 5: get help and fed the fire. When I went out,
4:15
Speaker 5: oxygen came in and made it even bigger. But you're
4:19
Speaker 5: just panicked, thinking I've got to get in there.
4:21
Speaker 2: I've got to do something.
4:22
Speaker 5: So then I broke a window with his tricycle and
4:26
Speaker 5: tried to climb in, and by that time the flames
4:28
Speaker 5: were coming through the roof. They took me to the hospital,
4:34
Speaker 5: and of course I'm asking did you find him? Because
4:38
Speaker 5: I couldn't find him. It never occurred to me that
4:41
Speaker 5: he wasn't coming out alive. And that simple statement was
4:45
Speaker 5: used against me at my trial because I asked, did
4:49
Speaker 5: you find him? Like they said, I knew he was
4:52
Speaker 5: already dead, but you just don't think that things will
4:55
Speaker 5: happen to you like that.
4:57
Speaker 1: There's nothing in the phrase did you find him that
5:00
Speaker 1: says to me, did you find a dead body? I
5:02
Speaker 1: mean exactly. They twist these things in so many ways,
5:06
Speaker 1: and it's so weird too. I Mean we see over
5:09
Speaker 1: and over again in wrongful conviction cases, especially cases like yours,
5:14
Speaker 1: where they say, well, you didn't react the way we
5:16
Speaker 1: think you should have. You were too upset, you weren't
5:19
Speaker 1: upset enough. I mean, how is anyone supposed to know
5:22
Speaker 1: how you're going to react. Everyone reacts differently in all
5:26
Speaker 1: types of panic situations. Right, this is beyond pattered, This
5:30
Speaker 1: is terror, This is sheer terror. You've almost lost your
5:33
Speaker 1: life in the process of losing your son you don't
5:35
Speaker 1: even know, and your home and you just woke up
5:38
Speaker 1: and add that type of thing that people most people,
5:40
Speaker 1: they just wake up. They don't even know what to do.
5:42
Speaker 1: They stumble arounds looking for the coffee machine. Right. I mean,
5:45
Speaker 1: here you are just waking up and the house is
5:48
Speaker 1: on fire, and everything that you're trying to do to
5:50
Speaker 1: help is backfiring, right exactly, because because who the hell
5:54
Speaker 1: would know, right? I mean, yeah, they teach us a
5:56
Speaker 1: little bit in school, right, throw a thing on it.
5:58
Speaker 1: But I mean, it's not like you took fire. You
6:00
Speaker 1: weren't a volunteer firefighter or anything like that. Right, So
6:04
Speaker 1: now the sort of witch hunt or whatever you want
6:07
Speaker 1: to call it starts. They decide that this is something
6:10
Speaker 1: they want to pursue. They're going to get this. Mom,
6:14
Speaker 1: you go to trial, did you think that you were
6:17
Speaker 1: going to be vindicated? Do you think that it was curtains?
6:20
Speaker 1: I mean, they had these arson investigators and all these
6:23
Speaker 1: supposed experts saying all this stuff about these accelerants, which
6:27
Speaker 1: we now know not only isn't a real science but
6:29
Speaker 1: also wasn't true. But exactly what were you thinking? You're
6:32
Speaker 1: just a kid and indicator Indiana, right.
6:35
Speaker 5: Right, I mean you're always taught the police or your
6:37
Speaker 5: friends they're going to find out the truth. You know,
6:41
Speaker 5: they would never do anything wrong. So I went to
6:44
Speaker 5: court thinking I'm going to go home, They're going to
6:47
Speaker 5: see the truth.
6:48
Speaker 2: They're going to see me that I didn't do this.
6:52
Speaker 5: And then when they said guilty, I was just in shock.
6:56
Speaker 2: I just blanked.
7:00
Speaker 5: Everybody's trying to ask me questions on the way out
7:04
Speaker 5: going to the police station, and I mean, I'm still
7:08
Speaker 5: registering what they just said to me, let alone trying
7:13
Speaker 5: to answer your question.
7:14
Speaker 2: So I'm just looking at them and it's just a blur.
7:17
Speaker 1: Right, And this is in Christine. This is what we
7:19
Speaker 1: see on TV all the time, right, the people that's
7:21
Speaker 1: at the cameras, the reporter's yelling yes, yeah, they're all
7:24
Speaker 1: and now they're all part of this mob mentality. Right,
7:28
Speaker 1: You're stuck in a nightmare that would be unimaginable to
7:32
Speaker 1: anyone who hasn't been through a day. Then you're sent
7:35
Speaker 1: to prison, sentenced to I.
7:37
Speaker 5: Was sentenced to sixty years for murder, fifty for arson,
7:43
Speaker 5: and they ran them concurrently, so it was just the
7:45
Speaker 5: sixty years.
7:47
Speaker 1: Just sixty, just sixty, right, and you were twenty one,
7:50
Speaker 1: so had eighty one you would have come out on
7:53
Speaker 1: your walker and maybe maybe if you were prolled. So
7:56
Speaker 1: you go to prison and.
7:57
Speaker 2: Go to prison, and now you're pregnant. I am pregnant.
8:00
Speaker 5: I was released on bond when it came back the
8:03
Speaker 5: test results came back that it wasn't gasoline because they
8:07
Speaker 5: thought I'd use gasoline to set the fire. So when
8:10
Speaker 5: those results came back negative for gasoline, my judge put
8:14
Speaker 5: me out on bond.
8:16
Speaker 1: I would have seemed like an appropriate time to drop
8:17
Speaker 1: the charges, but they decided to put you out on bond.
8:20
Speaker 2: They put me out on bond, and.
8:24
Speaker 5: I feel like it wasn't the best thing, but the
8:28
Speaker 5: best thing came out of it, because when I came out,
8:31
Speaker 5: I was doing all the wrong things. I was taking
8:35
Speaker 5: whatever anybody gave me. I was drinking. I honestly didn't
8:40
Speaker 5: care if I woke up. I lost everything. I mean,
8:44
Speaker 5: finding out I was pregnant with Tony changed my life,
8:46
Speaker 5: and I changed my life to take care of my
8:48
Speaker 5: son and give him everything that I.
8:50
Speaker 2: Could give him.
8:51
Speaker 5: And when I lost him, I didn't want to live.
8:55
Speaker 5: I wanted to be numb. I didn't want to feel,
8:59
Speaker 5: and so I was very reckless. And I met a
9:04
Speaker 5: guy and spent some time with him, and he was
9:08
Speaker 5: feeding me whatever.
9:09
Speaker 2: I wanted to be numb.
9:11
Speaker 5: And then I started getting really sick and found out
9:14
Speaker 5: that I was pregnant, and I didn't think that I
9:17
Speaker 5: could have anymore. So that was kind of my miracle moment,
9:22
Speaker 5: and I changed everything and started focusing on fighting because
9:27
Speaker 5: I had a son to fight for.
9:28
Speaker 2: I had something to live for at that moment.
9:32
Speaker 1: And this is a really I think interesting part of
9:36
Speaker 1: the story in that you gave birth in prison. Yes,
9:40
Speaker 1: And as we spoke about before, there's different protocols in
9:44
Speaker 1: different places in the country, in the world. There's no
9:47
Speaker 1: good answer for how do you deal with a baby
9:50
Speaker 1: in prison and having a child yanked away, whether it's
9:56
Speaker 1: on twenty four hours in as what happened to you, yeah,
9:59
Speaker 1: or three years later like those that last period of
10:02
Speaker 1: time like counting down the minutes or the second I
10:05
Speaker 1: can't even imagine. It's just so horrible. But in Indiana,
10:10
Speaker 1: their policy was twenty four hours and then kid goodbye.
10:15
Speaker 5: Yes, you're going back to the facility and the baby's
10:18
Speaker 5: going home.
10:19
Speaker 2: Yeah.
10:20
Speaker 5: My family took my son and they had him right
10:23
Speaker 5: over to the prison because I passed them on my
10:25
Speaker 5: way back out to be transferred to the facility, and
10:29
Speaker 5: both of us weren't supposed to be released until the
10:31
Speaker 5: next day. So I passed my dad and I'm I'm
10:35
Speaker 5: sobbing and telling him, don't leave my baby here.
10:39
Speaker 2: I can't lose another baby. You got to get my baby.
10:43
Speaker 5: So the doctor that actually delivered him helped my family
10:46
Speaker 5: to get a car seat and blankets so they could
10:50
Speaker 5: take him right then because they had everything for the
10:52
Speaker 5: next day, and then he brought him straight over to
10:55
Speaker 5: the prison so that I would know that they had him,
10:58
Speaker 5: and I did have to worry.
11:01
Speaker 1: That was at least a small blessing that you were
11:04
Speaker 1: able to have family and know that your baby son
11:08
Speaker 1: was going to be taken care of and protected and loved,
11:12
Speaker 1: and you got to have visitation with him ten hours
11:15
Speaker 1: a month. Was that how it worked out?
11:17
Speaker 5: You get ten hours a month in the regular visiting
11:19
Speaker 5: room where you can't really do anything. You have to
11:22
Speaker 5: be sitting in a chair, so I could hold him
11:25
Speaker 5: on my lap, But it took a while for us
11:28
Speaker 5: to change the policy where I could get on the
11:30
Speaker 5: floor and do blocks with him on the table or cars.
11:34
Speaker 5: But when I first got there, you sat in the chair.
11:38
Speaker 5: Your family went and got chips or a coke for you.
11:41
Speaker 5: You couldn't move, and if he needed something like its
11:44
Speaker 5: diaper changed or to be fed, my family would have
11:47
Speaker 5: to get up and go out into the outer court
11:50
Speaker 5: and take care of that there.
11:52
Speaker 2: That couldn't be done in the visiting room.
11:54
Speaker 5: So I didn't really have any hands on until six
11:58
Speaker 5: months in when they opened the Family Present program and
12:01
Speaker 5: our children could come in for one on one visits
12:04
Speaker 5: with us, and so then I got an extra ten
12:06
Speaker 5: hours a month just for him.
12:09
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's and that's something I want to highlight is
12:11
Speaker 1: that these programs in the prisons that provide a little
12:16
Speaker 1: glimpse of humanity in an otherwise cold and cruel and
12:20
Speaker 1: purely punitive system that we have here is so important.
12:26
Speaker 1: And in your case, I can see you lighting up
12:28
Speaker 1: talking about it. I mean, what a difference that makes,
12:30
Speaker 1: you know, so, and obviously what a difference it did make,
12:33
Speaker 1: and so ultimately your case was overturned. It was sixteen
12:38
Speaker 1: years later. Yes, let's just talk for a moment about
12:42
Speaker 1: what that was like, vindication, freedom, I mean.
12:48
Speaker 5: Just the new evidence that came out in the case.
12:51
Speaker 5: You know, my son reached an eighty percent carbon monoxide
12:55
Speaker 5: level that was new fire science from a forensic toxicologist.
13:00
Speaker 5: And hearing her say that I was in the very
13:03
Speaker 5: next room and was probably half of that level and hallucinating.
13:09
Speaker 5: Everything's blurry, everything's slow, you're sluggish. I mean that made
13:15
Speaker 5: me feel better because you always think you can do more.
13:19
Speaker 2: And then finding out they falsified an ATF.
13:22
Speaker 5: Re board that right there, that was vindication for me,
13:27
Speaker 5: if I'd never walked out, at least I knew that
13:30
Speaker 5: it wasn't it wasn't an arson, he wasn't murdered. It
13:36
Speaker 5: was just an accident, and that I think was the
13:38
Speaker 5: best moment. Walking out was good, but it's scary, and I.
13:53
Speaker 1: Want to talk about that. And the Center for Wronful
13:55
Speaker 1: Convictions played a big role in your exoneration, so I
13:57
Speaker 1: want to give them respect and from both of us
14:02
Speaker 1: because without them you wouldn't be here. And your advocate
14:06
Speaker 1: was Betsy Marx right as well. So there's a number
14:09
Speaker 1: of heroes in this situation, and ultimately you walked out,
14:12
Speaker 1: and that's what I really want to focus on. Because
14:14
Speaker 1: we're here at the Innocence Network conference and watching people
14:19
Speaker 1: heal and recover and transform themselves. It's such a powerful thing.
14:23
Speaker 1: Every time I see it, it just makes me want
14:25
Speaker 1: to do more and more and everything I can to
14:29
Speaker 1: help and promote this work. So when you get out,
14:33
Speaker 1: then what sixteen years a long time?
14:36
Speaker 2: Yes, very long time.
14:37
Speaker 1: So what were the things like, how did where did
14:39
Speaker 1: you go? How did you reconnect? And what could we
14:43
Speaker 1: as a society do differently to help others who are
14:46
Speaker 1: coming out after this type of ordeal.
14:49
Speaker 5: I think it's important for people to know that you
14:52
Speaker 5: don't have to give a whole lot out of your
14:55
Speaker 5: wallet to make a difference for us, if we just had.
14:59
Speaker 2: People that would give us time.
15:01
Speaker 5: I mean, I didn't know, and it was like the
15:04
Speaker 5: most embarrassing thing for me. I'm thirty nine years old.
15:07
Speaker 5: It took me ten minutes to get out of the
15:09
Speaker 5: bathroom because they had removed the knobs on the water
15:14
Speaker 5: faucets and I didn't know how to turn it on.
15:17
Speaker 5: I just thankfully finally flicked something automatic.
15:22
Speaker 1: Yes, so I still have trouble with that.
15:25
Speaker 5: It came on and I was like, oh my god,
15:27
Speaker 5: and I'm in tears by the time I come out,
15:28
Speaker 5: and there's my brother saying, what's wrong?
15:30
Speaker 2: Are you sick? Is there a problem? I said, I
15:32
Speaker 2: didn't know how to turn.
15:33
Speaker 5: On the water, And so things like that make me
15:36
Speaker 5: want to stay at home because I don't want to
15:39
Speaker 5: go out and be embarrassed and tell people I don't
15:42
Speaker 5: know how to do this. I was waiting for a
15:45
Speaker 5: full service gas station and we don't have those anymore.
15:49
Speaker 5: So things that I've never learned how to do, like
15:51
Speaker 5: change my oil or check my entire pressure. I now
15:54
Speaker 5: have to go find somebody to do that, because I
15:56
Speaker 5: can't just pull up and say fill it up, and
15:58
Speaker 5: can you check everything?
16:00
Speaker 1: Do you remember what time you were actually released?
16:02
Speaker 2: I want to say it's four or five in the afternoon, and.
16:07
Speaker 1: What did you do? Where'd you go?
16:09
Speaker 5: So first we went, I didn't talk to any of
16:11
Speaker 5: those reporters that called me a baby killer, and I
16:15
Speaker 5: gave one interview with Sandra Chapman because she had interviewed
16:19
Speaker 5: me in the prison and helped push my case forward,
16:21
Speaker 5: so she was the only exclusive.
16:23
Speaker 2: That I gave.
16:23
Speaker 5: And we went to a park and I got to
16:25
Speaker 5: walk in the grass barefoot, and we had a nice
16:29
Speaker 5: time there. And then we went over to Bistro three
16:32
Speaker 5: ten and I had champagne with my attorneys, and they
16:36
Speaker 5: made me some scallops because seafood was my favorite. They
16:41
Speaker 5: asked what kind of food I wanted. I said colorful,
16:44
Speaker 5: and she said, what do you mean? And I said
16:46
Speaker 5: everything in there is kind.
16:47
Speaker 2: Of brown and gray and it's just not pretty.
16:51
Speaker 5: I said, I want to eat vegetables that are colored
16:54
Speaker 5: and nice, and cheese and different kinds of things. So
16:58
Speaker 5: they set me up with hummus and peda and the
17:03
Speaker 5: color not.
17:04
Speaker 2: All of it. There was a spicy that was kind
17:06
Speaker 2: of red, and I.
17:07
Speaker 1: Would have gotten a strawberry or maybe like.
17:10
Speaker 5: I had that for dessert, I had a whole plate
17:12
Speaker 5: of different fruits and cream cheese dip and then whipped
17:16
Speaker 5: cream up.
17:16
Speaker 2: Was incredible.
17:17
Speaker 1: Yeah, that sounds incredible. And then you went where.
17:20
Speaker 5: Then I went to my mother's house where my son
17:24
Speaker 5: was staying, and I was upmost the night because I'd
17:28
Speaker 5: never gotten to see my baby sleep.
17:30
Speaker 1: That's an incredible visual. And I see you tearing up.
17:32
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm trying not to myself. And now you
17:36
Speaker 1: watch them sleep, you get up the next day. Is
17:38
Speaker 1: it starting to feel real? At that point?
17:40
Speaker 5: It's feeling real? It's also feeling frightening. I mean, the
17:44
Speaker 5: only thing I have is my literally my prison uniform
17:49
Speaker 5: and white white tennis shoes in a bag. I had
17:52
Speaker 5: no clothes, I have no hygiens. I don't have a toothbrush,
17:57
Speaker 5: and I'm thinking, I have no money. How am I
18:00
Speaker 5: supposed to get these things? I have no vehicle, how
18:03
Speaker 5: am I supposed to get around? And thank goodness, I
18:07
Speaker 5: mean three o'clock in the afternoon, when my brother got
18:09
Speaker 5: off of work. He came in, picked me up, and
18:13
Speaker 5: we went out to eat, and I literally again had
18:18
Speaker 5: no idea what to order.
18:19
Speaker 2: Decisions are so real hard because for.
18:23
Speaker 5: So long I haven't made any and I'm trying to
18:27
Speaker 5: branch out and get better.
18:28
Speaker 2: With that, but it's still it's still an issue that
18:30
Speaker 2: I go through.
18:32
Speaker 5: So we ate and I had a peach frozen margarita
18:36
Speaker 5: and a steak, and then he took me shopping, and
18:39
Speaker 5: so we went into this clothing store and there's all
18:42
Speaker 5: these colors and he's like, what do you want.
18:46
Speaker 2: Well, I've had nothing but.
18:47
Speaker 5: White and khaki. I have no idea, and so my
18:50
Speaker 5: eyes bug out and he was like, okay, he said,
18:52
Speaker 5: you go in the fitting room. I'm going to bring
18:55
Speaker 5: you outfits. So he brought me back outfits and the
18:59
Speaker 5: things that I put on and said this fits good, and.
19:01
Speaker 2: I like this.
19:02
Speaker 5: They went into the keep pile and everything else went back.
19:05
Speaker 5: And then when we left there, he took me to
19:07
Speaker 5: an old fashioned candy store and got me some candy
19:11
Speaker 5: that we had when we were kids. And then we
19:14
Speaker 5: went to a wine store and I tasted some wine
19:18
Speaker 5: and he picked up a couple bottles of.
19:19
Speaker 2: That, and then we went to Walmart, and at.
19:23
Speaker 5: That point, I'm like, wow, you know, I'm over the
19:27
Speaker 5: moon with everything I'm seeing. And Walmart's now Super Walmart.
19:31
Speaker 5: And we go to pick out shampoo and he's like,
19:34
Speaker 5: what do you want? Well, I've only had two choices
19:36
Speaker 5: and there's a whole aisle.
19:37
Speaker 2: I have no idea. So here's my brother and we're
19:41
Speaker 2: smelling them up and down the aisle. He said, we'll
19:43
Speaker 2: just pick what smells good. So we went through and
19:47
Speaker 2: we found something that I liked.
19:48
Speaker 5: And so by the time we get through there and
19:51
Speaker 5: I'm like, you know, I need some feminine products. There's
19:55
Speaker 5: a whole isle of that, and he's like, what do
19:57
Speaker 5: you want. Well, I've only had one sixteen years and
20:02
Speaker 5: I don't know. And at this point I'm I'm done.
20:05
Speaker 5: I'm wiped out. I can't speak, and here I start crying.
20:09
Speaker 5: And so he looks at me and he was like,
20:11
Speaker 5: it's okay. He said, my wife uses this, and he
20:13
Speaker 5: puts it in the cart and he said and if
20:14
Speaker 5: you don't like it, he said, we'll come back every
20:17
Speaker 5: day until we find what works for you. And so
20:20
Speaker 5: he took me to his house and I had wine
20:23
Speaker 5: and he made me homemade guacamole, and I sat.
20:26
Speaker 2: Visiting with him. Yes, it's colorful. And then I ended
20:29
Speaker 2: up spending the night with him. And then the next day.
20:32
Speaker 5: Is when he took me to the movie theater and
20:34
Speaker 5: I couldn't turn on the water, so he.
20:37
Speaker 2: Made it good.
20:38
Speaker 5: And he's the one that between him and my son,
20:42
Speaker 5: they kept me going out instead of hiding in the
20:45
Speaker 5: house and not.
20:46
Speaker 2: Dealing with people.
20:47
Speaker 5: And they helped me get my license. I had to
20:49
Speaker 5: have a learner's permit again. They taught me how to
20:53
Speaker 5: build up my credits, how to use the internet.
20:56
Speaker 2: Social media awesome.
20:59
Speaker 1: What is your social media? Do you want to plug
21:00
Speaker 1: it on the podcast? Do you want more people to
21:02
Speaker 1: follow you or are you more of a private kind
21:04
Speaker 1: of person.
21:05
Speaker 5: No, I mean people can follow me. I'm on Twitter, Yeah,
21:08
Speaker 5: with Christine.
21:08
Speaker 1: Bunch Christine Bunch kri is t I N E b
21:11
Speaker 1: U nch on Twitter.
21:13
Speaker 2: Yes.
21:13
Speaker 1: And I do want to talk about your organization, Justice
21:18
Speaker 1: for just Us. Yes, you had a wonderful support group,
21:21
Speaker 1: which was your family, but many people have nothing exactly.
21:23
Speaker 1: People learn for thirty years, they come out, they've got
21:25
Speaker 1: nobody left. It's a catchy name, Justice for just Us
21:29
Speaker 1: what's just us?
21:30
Speaker 5: Just us is it's a combination. I have one Rivera
21:35
Speaker 5: who's another ex honery. He spent twenty one years and
21:37
Speaker 5: he is in Illinois. I'm in Indiana, and we decided
21:41
Speaker 5: we wanted to do something because people come out and
21:43
Speaker 5: they have no one. You spend forty years in there,
21:46
Speaker 5: most of your families probably died, and there's no one
21:50
Speaker 5: to meet you. There's no one to take you out
21:51
Speaker 5: shopping and do the things that my brother did. So
21:54
Speaker 5: we decided that it was up to us to bring
21:57
Speaker 5: justice to other ex honeries. So we're getting ready to
22:01
Speaker 5: put in for our non for profit that'll probably go
22:03
Speaker 5: in a couple of weeks, and our hope is that
22:06
Speaker 5: we can continue to train and hire other exoneries in
22:10
Speaker 5: their states and just make our community aware of what
22:13
Speaker 5: people need when they walk out, how they can help.
22:16
Speaker 2: Everybody can help.
22:17
Speaker 5: If you have a barber shop, give an exonery a haircut,
22:21
Speaker 5: If you have a clothing shop, give them a new
22:23
Speaker 5: outfit so they can go get do an interview.
22:27
Speaker 2: So we hope that we can just keep.
22:29
Speaker 5: Educating through our speaking events and bring people in to help.
22:32
Speaker 5: And even if you give a gift card of twenty dollars.
22:35
Speaker 5: That's a shirt for someone. Sure, that's something easy. You
22:39
Speaker 5: don't have to donate thousands of dollars to make a difference,
22:42
Speaker 5: just taking someone on the bus.
22:44
Speaker 1: Many people listening probably saying, well, but I don't know
22:45
Speaker 1: how to find that person, So I mean, would you
22:47
Speaker 1: recommend they go to an Innocence project website, maybe a
22:50
Speaker 1: local innocence project website, or because they are innstance projects
22:54
Speaker 1: all around the country.
22:54
Speaker 5: Absolutely, you can go to any of the NISNCE Projects
22:57
Speaker 5: websites and find ways that you can volunteer and help
23:00
Speaker 5: and help with our exoneries. Our Facebook page is just
23:06
Speaker 5: is iss four and it's the number just us.
23:11
Speaker 1: Okay, so it's just is justis the number four just
23:16
Speaker 1: us on Facebook.
23:17
Speaker 2: Oh we also have a website under that name as well.
23:20
Speaker 1: Okay, good, so get involved. Christine Bunch has been our wonderful,
23:25
Speaker 1: amazing guest today. Thank you. You can't see her smile,
23:28
Speaker 1: but she has a magnetic smile and if you were
23:32
Speaker 1: here with me, you would absolutely want to give her
23:34
Speaker 1: a hug, which is exactly what I'm going to do
23:37
Speaker 1: as soon as we get off the air. So thank
23:39
Speaker 1: you Christine again for being here. And for sharing your experience,
23:43
Speaker 1: strength and hope. And now let's get right into it
23:50
Speaker 1: with the one and only Obie Anthony.
23:52
Speaker 3: Anthony and Cole were convicted twenty years ago of a
23:54
Speaker 3: shooting death in South.
23:56
Speaker 6: LA back in nineteen ninety four.
23:57
Speaker 4: Anthony's legal team says a pinpoint of the finger at
24:00
Speaker 4: the two men.
24:01
Speaker 3: They were released four years ago after a key witness
24:03
Speaker 3: with Candida's testimony.
24:04
Speaker 6: The pimp later Recanaida's story.
24:06
Speaker 3: Their lawyers then found out an La Times reporter had
24:09
Speaker 3: taken home shellcasings from the murder scene that could have
24:12
Speaker 3: pointed to another suspect.
24:13
Speaker 4: Prosecutors and police refused to admit that they did anything wrong.
24:17
Speaker 2: In this case.
24:18
Speaker 7: There was not one piece of physical evidence and that's
24:22
Speaker 7: the key. That's what the police did wrong in this case.
24:24
Speaker 7: They ignored the evidence of innocence and twisted the evidence
24:28
Speaker 7: to point towards guilt because they wanted to clear a case.
24:31
Speaker 3: The two detectives that helped put ob Anthony and his
24:34
Speaker 3: co defended behind bars, one still works for the LAPD.
24:37
Speaker 7: According to Obi Anthony's lawyers and the judge that exonerated him,
24:41
Speaker 7: evidence showed they were never here the night of the killing.
24:44
Speaker 1: Oh be welcome to the show.
24:45
Speaker 6: Thank you for having me.
24:46
Speaker 1: You were sentenced to life in prison.
24:48
Speaker 6: Life without the positive parole.
24:50
Speaker 1: Yeah, life like the no joke version of life.
24:52
Speaker 4: Yeah, like some life life and like the one that
24:56
Speaker 4: you know, we're not even talking about talking to you forever,
24:58
Speaker 4: like it's no parole.
25:00
Speaker 1: And you were framed.
25:02
Speaker 4: I was actually framed by the detective Marcella Win. They
25:05
Speaker 4: had information from the very onset that me and my
25:09
Speaker 4: codyfriended at the time.
25:10
Speaker 6: Reggie Cole wasn't involved. It was her.
25:13
Speaker 4: Plus it was her Win on that end of the
25:15
Speaker 4: bargain because she has in the law, in the eyes
25:17
Speaker 4: of her co workers, are successful incarceration and now it's
25:20
Speaker 4: just pending in a conviction. So it was her who
25:23
Speaker 4: actually framed me.
25:24
Speaker 1: And how did it come to be that you even
25:28
Speaker 1: became a suspect in this because it's funny looking at
25:31
Speaker 1: you now, I mean you can't see him on the radio,
25:34
Speaker 1: but he's a very dapper individual, very good looking gentleman.
25:37
Speaker 1: You know. Yeah, he's got his here at the at
25:40
Speaker 1: the conference where everybody's kind of casual. He's got the
25:43
Speaker 1: tie and the vest and the sharp looking shirt and everything.
25:46
Speaker 1: So I mean, how did you get wrapped up in
25:48
Speaker 1: this nightmare? What was it like for you? You were
25:50
Speaker 1: you were just a young man trying to make it
25:52
Speaker 1: in the world.
25:53
Speaker 6: You know, I want to mislead your listeners.
25:55
Speaker 4: I grew up in the inner city of Los Angeles, California,
25:57
Speaker 4: South central.
25:58
Speaker 6: I was involved in gangs.
25:59
Speaker 4: But actually got me involved in this case here that
26:02
Speaker 4: got me wrongfully convicted was because they allegedly got anonymous
26:06
Speaker 4: call saying that a guy made a bad move.
26:09
Speaker 6: On forty ninth Street and hung up the phone.
26:11
Speaker 4: From that phone call, the young lady, Marcella Wynn, the
26:16
Speaker 4: caller gave the name of Baby Day. She said that
26:19
Speaker 4: she ran the name Baby Day through the gang database
26:23
Speaker 4: and she she had hits with the name baby Day,
26:26
Speaker 4: but it was multiple hits, and she determined that the
26:28
Speaker 4: Baby Day that she was looking for was a guy
26:31
Speaker 4: named Michael Miller out of all of those Baby Days.
26:33
Speaker 4: And then come to find out he was incarcerated at
26:36
Speaker 4: that time with me. And so that's how they got
26:38
Speaker 4: their hands on my picture.
26:40
Speaker 1: Well, and this was nineteen ninety four, and yeah, it
26:42
Speaker 1: was a very violent time and they were interested in
26:46
Speaker 1: processing these cases and closing them.
26:48
Speaker 4: Yeah, correct, that time, you had a news reporter by
26:51
Speaker 4: the name of Mama's Coren who was acting as a
26:54
Speaker 4: follow alone reporter with the LAPD at that time, and
26:57
Speaker 4: that's what he was writing in reporting on in nineteen
26:59
Speaker 4: ninety for was the gang violence in south central Los
27:02
Speaker 4: Angeles and a murder rate in which the Homicide division
27:06
Speaker 4: and in other words, their cases and what they had.
27:08
Speaker 4: And so he had the privilege at that point to
27:12
Speaker 4: ride along with Marcelo Win and Pete Resistance, the detective
27:16
Speaker 4: that was involved in my homicide case, which turned out
27:19
Speaker 4: to be a plus because that reporter reported what he
27:24
Speaker 4: seen as he seen it, while those investigative detectives that
27:30
Speaker 4: work for the police department left out all of the
27:34
Speaker 4: pertinent information which was pertinent to prove my innocence.
27:38
Speaker 6: So it was it was, you know, it's amazing.
27:40
Speaker 1: Unfortunately, this was well, it is common, Yes, I mean common.
27:45
Speaker 1: I'm trying to even find the right word for it.
27:46
Speaker 1: It's like it's pervasive. This kind of behavior among its criminal.
27:52
Speaker 1: I'll call it criminal. It is criminal. It's criminal as
27:54
Speaker 1: it is, as it is common, unfortunately, and the fact
27:57
Speaker 1: is that it's hard for people to understand why and
28:03
Speaker 1: how it goes so wrong when the people who we
28:06
Speaker 1: pay to protect us, that protect and serve right go
28:11
Speaker 1: on this rogue mission. And I know, you know they
28:14
Speaker 1: say power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts, absolutely, and I
28:17
Speaker 1: think they become desensitized to a certain extent when they're
28:20
Speaker 1: dealing with one case after another, and it starts to
28:24
Speaker 1: become like a just a system, and it becomes very
28:27
Speaker 1: inconvenient when they start to realize that they got the
28:29
Speaker 1: wrong guy, but they've already put the work in. But
28:32
Speaker 1: it's weird that And I know it's got to be
28:34
Speaker 1: weird from your perspective because you were in for what
28:36
Speaker 1: seventeen years, correct, right, So how they could just so
28:41
Speaker 1: callously literally throw somebody's life away because you're missing out
28:44
Speaker 1: on I mean, seventeen years and you know, arguably those
28:48
Speaker 1: could be the best seventeen years of your life.
28:50
Speaker 4: Arguably, I mean, he taking consideration, I walked out of
28:53
Speaker 4: the prison.
28:54
Speaker 6: At the age of thirty seven.
28:55
Speaker 4: I walked into the institution at the age of nineteen,
28:58
Speaker 4: So you're right, my young adult life was the time
29:03
Speaker 4: for me to have kids. Twenty one, twenty two, twenty three,
29:08
Speaker 4: twenty four, twenty five, twenty six, I think for the
29:11
Speaker 4: woman it cuts it off At twenty eight twenty.
29:13
Speaker 6: Nine said something about the eggs. I don't know. I
29:15
Speaker 6: don't know if they're true.
29:16
Speaker 4: Or not, But at some point or another, you have
29:18
Speaker 4: to realize and appreciate the fact that those same dilemmas
29:21
Speaker 4: plague demand too. His count drops, and it drops even
29:24
Speaker 4: more drastically because he's been affected by an institution who's
29:27
Speaker 4: poisoning in him.
29:29
Speaker 6: You got to take that in mind.
29:30
Speaker 4: You have some of the most healthier specimens to walk
29:33
Speaker 4: into institutions and come out ridd of with diseases and
29:35
Speaker 4: plague with things. In other words, they can't get rid
29:38
Speaker 4: of why because the medical program that they have inside
29:42
Speaker 4: is designed to do just that break their body down,
29:46
Speaker 4: and so they don't get the healthcare in which the
29:48
Speaker 4: great public think that they're getting.
29:50
Speaker 1: And that the public is paying for.
29:52
Speaker 6: Yeah.
29:52
Speaker 4: Yeah, I guess they keep that in mind. In other words, yeah,
29:55
Speaker 4: keep that in mind that the public is paying for. Right,
29:57
Speaker 4: So the public is contributing funds to this institution to
29:59
Speaker 4: ke care of medically mentally these individuals who have been incarcerated.
30:06
Speaker 4: But nevertheless those things are not happening. They're passing out
30:10
Speaker 4: thor zene and cinequons as though it's Halloween and it
30:14
Speaker 4: was candy for trigger treat and we know that thor
30:16
Speaker 4: zene is a medication that they used to lobottomize people.
30:20
Speaker 1: Yeah, and we had Jason Baldwin on the show. He
30:22
Speaker 1: was talking about the thor Zen Shuffle and how he
30:25
Speaker 1: was avoiding that being placed in that situation at all costs,
30:28
Speaker 1: even at his own extreme risk to his own personal safety,
30:31
Speaker 1: because they offered to put him in there for his
30:32
Speaker 1: own protection. He said, I'm not going to do that.
30:34
Speaker 6: Yeah. Absolutely.
30:34
Speaker 4: Reason why it is because he recognized that was part
30:36
Speaker 4: of the mechanisms, in other words, to destroy his body
30:40
Speaker 4: so his spirit wouldn't have the strength to fight to
30:42
Speaker 4: get out. Got to fight to get your body right,
30:44
Speaker 4: and then you fight for everything else.
30:46
Speaker 1: Let me go back to this though, be because it's
30:48
Speaker 1: always incredible to me the spirit of the people that
30:51
Speaker 1: are in this building right now, right and you're one
30:53
Speaker 1: of two hundred men and women who've been through these
30:57
Speaker 1: unbelievable ordeals. How did you find the strength to continue
31:01
Speaker 1: to fight? I mean you're just a young guy, a
31:03
Speaker 1: young black guy in a system that's full of young
31:06
Speaker 1: black guys, right, And I know and I know you're
31:08
Speaker 1: focused on that and the disparity between how the justice
31:12
Speaker 1: system treats white people and minorities, right, And it's an
31:15
Speaker 1: American shame, But the.
31:18
Speaker 6: An American tradition is American pleasure.
31:21
Speaker 4: I mean, however, it's a shame for those individuals who
31:25
Speaker 4: has to suffer, but for those individuals who inflict that
31:27
Speaker 4: sufferers a pleasure in their desires.
31:29
Speaker 1: I hate to think of.
31:30
Speaker 6: It that way, but not what they're doing, and that's
31:32
Speaker 6: what they've been doing.
31:33
Speaker 4: And as not as though the resident people of somehow
31:36
Speaker 4: another not even ignorant about those things. They just try
31:39
Speaker 4: to fight against what they're doing, versus creating a situation.
31:43
Speaker 6: To stop what they're doing. To totally to different kind
31:46
Speaker 6: of thinking.
31:46
Speaker 1: And it's crazy because we know that in the rest
31:48
Speaker 1: of the civilized world, Western Europe and places like that,
31:51
Speaker 1: they treat incarceration as rehabilitation. We treat it here as punishment.
31:56
Speaker 1: It's and it's it just doesn't make any sense, you know.
31:58
Speaker 1: I often say, like when I'm a politician or somebody
32:00
Speaker 1: like that I'm talking to about these issues, I say,
32:02
Speaker 1: if another country treated our citizens the way we treat
32:05
Speaker 1: our citizens. We'd invade them. We'd be like, listen, motherfuckers,
32:08
Speaker 1: we're coming at We got tanks, we got planes.
32:10
Speaker 4: Look, no, no, no, they are so so taking consideration. They
32:12
Speaker 4: are invading us. They are doing it so right now
32:15
Speaker 4: in the local the police department. They got tanks. Yeah, yeah,
32:18
Speaker 4: you're in the local to the police department. They do
32:20
Speaker 4: all of those things. So they are they are raiding us, however,
32:23
Speaker 4: but who they are rating. They are raiding the inner city.
32:26
Speaker 4: And they're raiding the inner city for black bodies and
32:28
Speaker 4: bodies of color, and they putting them in prison for
32:30
Speaker 4: long periods of time.
32:31
Speaker 6: So you know, they you know, let's not they're doing it.
32:35
Speaker 1: It's a war on the poor.
32:36
Speaker 6: Yes, they're doing it.
32:37
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's no question. But let's go back to that,
32:40
Speaker 1: because I think anyone would say if I was in
32:44
Speaker 1: that situation that you found yourself in, not even like
32:47
Speaker 1: fifteen of life, like life, natural life, your sendence to life,
32:52
Speaker 1: Society said here's what You're going to die in prison?
32:55
Speaker 1: Bye bye. Nobody cares about you. You're gone, right, and
32:59
Speaker 1: you have no resource at your disposal. It's not like
33:01
Speaker 1: you have a rich uncle who's like, I'm gonna hire
33:03
Speaker 1: the best, you know, like, I'm gonna go get you
33:05
Speaker 1: know whoever it is, the top defense attorneys. I'm gonna
33:08
Speaker 1: get a squad out there. You know you don't have
33:10
Speaker 1: money to hire a private investigator to uncover this. And
33:13
Speaker 1: I'm gonna say a nice word, malfeasans. This this corruption,
33:16
Speaker 1: this this you know, this frame job that was perpetrated
33:19
Speaker 1: on you. So where did you find the strength to say,
33:23
Speaker 1: I'm not going to give up. I'm going to find
33:25
Speaker 1: a way out of what is it? An impossible situation?
33:27
Speaker 6: I gave up on myself.
33:32
Speaker 1: You gave up on yourself? What do you mean?
33:33
Speaker 4: I gave up with myself and I relied on the creator.
33:37
Speaker 4: So you found faith wasn't found. Faith didn't have to
33:40
Speaker 4: find it. I just had to give up the you
33:42
Speaker 4: that everyone else has seen and enjoy to you that
33:45
Speaker 4: was always been in me, and that gave me the
33:48
Speaker 4: power to seahope so that I can go towards it.
33:51
Speaker 4: If you all know what's going on in here, you
33:53
Speaker 4: ain't tripping on nothing else. You too busy concerned about
33:56
Speaker 4: the attachments is around you.
33:58
Speaker 1: So how did how did you find it? When did
34:00
Speaker 1: you find it? Like you didn't you didn't go in
34:02
Speaker 1: as a man.
34:03
Speaker 6: No, no, no, absolutely.
34:04
Speaker 4: I found it when the judge called me down, when
34:06
Speaker 4: they called me down to the county jail, I was.
34:08
Speaker 4: I was sitting into the county jail facing life without
34:10
Speaker 4: the possibile parole. It was during that time because they
34:13
Speaker 4: called me down to the county and they told me
34:15
Speaker 4: that I was being charged with a murder, three attempted murders,
34:18
Speaker 4: with three attempt to robbers with special circus.
34:21
Speaker 6: I was like, what in the world is that. I'm like,
34:22
Speaker 6: are you sure you got the right CDC?
34:24
Speaker 4: And I'm booking number right there. I mean, like, my
34:26
Speaker 4: last three is six seven six? Is that six seven six?
34:30
Speaker 4: He said, yeah. So I found it the day the
34:35
Speaker 4: judge told me because I was facing the death penty
34:37
Speaker 4: initial that I was facing the death penty and I'm like,
34:42
Speaker 4: and I know that I didn't do it, and I'm
34:45
Speaker 4: facing the death penalty on this side of the gate,
34:48
Speaker 4: and on this side of the gate, I'm looking at
34:50
Speaker 4: life about the possible parole.
34:53
Speaker 6: So I didn't find anything.
34:54
Speaker 4: That stuff kind of sport it just you know, that's
34:57
Speaker 4: that that's that I think that's what them Buddha's doing
35:01
Speaker 4: them is in when they're going that thing and they
35:02
Speaker 4: sit in the cave for a little while and they
35:04
Speaker 4: trying to find some kind of enlightenment and they get
35:07
Speaker 4: that boom. Sometimes people happen, they get that boom when
35:10
Speaker 4: they get traumatized because they get hit boll card, they're
35:13
Speaker 4: in an accident, they.
35:14
Speaker 6: Get that boom. They see the light.
35:16
Speaker 4: Well, I did get hit Bob back truck didn't hit
35:20
Speaker 4: me physically, but as you see today, it wregged me
35:23
Speaker 4: on his side, crushed every inch of my spirit.
35:28
Speaker 1: But I rebuilded it though, So you didn't. It's amazing
35:31
Speaker 1: to see you because honestly, and again we're here in person.
35:35
Speaker 1: You're out there listening to his voice, but just running
35:38
Speaker 1: into in the hallways here and stuff. I mean, you
35:40
Speaker 1: got to smile. That lights up the room. Obi's here
35:43
Speaker 1: with his wife who looks like a movie star, you
35:44
Speaker 1: know what I mean, and like it's thank you. Yeah.
35:47
Speaker 1: I mean. So, so, somehow or other, you did prevail. Ultimately,
35:52
Speaker 1: your conviction was overturned, right, justice was finally done. Seventeen
35:57
Speaker 1: years later you walked out into society a free man,
36:00
Speaker 1: but you still had to rebuild. How did you get
36:02
Speaker 1: from that to this where you look like a I
36:06
Speaker 1: mean you look.
36:06
Speaker 4: Like thank you, man, thank you for me saying I
36:09
Speaker 4: got right there, Because again, it's about perception, how you
36:14
Speaker 4: see things.
36:14
Speaker 6: The way I took it in and the way that
36:15
Speaker 6: I took my generation in.
36:17
Speaker 4: It wasn't that if justice had finally came and then
36:20
Speaker 4: it was that it had done. No, it was just
36:22
Speaker 4: justice had just begun. And so I was born in
36:26
Speaker 4: that instance, and it gave me a sense of renewing, like, man,
36:30
Speaker 4: I can do this, I can do that.
36:31
Speaker 6: Knucket, Like why am I gonna be?
36:33
Speaker 4: Why am I upset with you about this crazy stuff
36:37
Speaker 4: over here when I got the opportunity to use that
36:39
Speaker 4: same energy to be happy in love and kind of
36:42
Speaker 4: like get you figured in places like that, you don't
36:46
Speaker 4: waste your time on nonsense.
36:48
Speaker 6: Happy times now, Happy time.
36:50
Speaker 1: Yeah. You came out in twenty eleven, about five and
36:53
Speaker 1: a half years ago. Yes, and now you're here in
36:56
Speaker 1: San Diego. The future looks looks good. I mean, obviously
36:59
Speaker 1: there's still well the scars are not going to heal
37:01
Speaker 1: in five years, are not going to heal in fifteen years.
37:05
Speaker 1: But you're like extremely optimistic and energetic individual. Anybody who
37:10
Speaker 1: bumps into you with the lobby's going to pick up
37:12
Speaker 1: on that, and it's inspiring to everybody that's here to
37:16
Speaker 1: see you up on stage last night dancing with other
37:18
Speaker 1: gunner's or whatever it might be. And it does I
37:22
Speaker 1: hope you know that it has a real impact not
37:24
Speaker 1: only on your peers, but also on all of those
37:27
Speaker 1: of us who are in the movement who come out
37:30
Speaker 1: of this meeting you and wanting to go do more
37:33
Speaker 1: and devote more time and more energy and more resources
37:36
Speaker 1: to fight this fight and fix the system so that
37:39
Speaker 1: the next OBI never has to go through what you
37:42
Speaker 1: went through. And now you're here as an example of
37:45
Speaker 1: what's possible. If you could share what you've learned and
37:48
Speaker 1: what you want people to understand about you, what would
37:51
Speaker 1: it be.
37:52
Speaker 4: It's a major difference in believing and knowing transition. That
37:58
Speaker 4: stage is life. The living is in the know. You
38:03
Speaker 4: live through the know. You survive through the opposite. You
38:10
Speaker 4: survived through that. You survive through your belief because it
38:16
Speaker 4: gets pushed upon constantly, so you survive and you have
38:20
Speaker 4: to tolerate, and you do those things. But when you
38:22
Speaker 4: transition to the note, you live in it and you
38:26
Speaker 4: exercise the right of the fact of the note.
38:30
Speaker 6: And that's what I want people to take.
38:33
Speaker 4: I say, all the time I go around, I get
38:34
Speaker 4: a chance to talk at you know, colleges and university,
38:36
Speaker 4: and I speak at high schools and I talk to kids,
38:39
Speaker 4: and that first thing, I'll say, what's two plus two?
38:40
Speaker 4: They say four? I said, you know that, don't you?
38:43
Speaker 4: I say yeah. I say, well, who do you believe in?
38:45
Speaker 4: They say this? I say, why, you just told me
38:49
Speaker 4: two plus two is four? So why are you believing
38:51
Speaker 4: this and not knowing it?
38:53
Speaker 6: You must know that which you say is yours.
38:58
Speaker 4: I can't say I believe in our marriage and the
39:01
Speaker 4: sanctity of our marriage and not know the person that
39:07
Speaker 4: I'm saying that I believe that, so I have to know.
39:11
Speaker 4: So it's a transition, and that's why I want people
39:13
Speaker 4: to walk away with this transition over to the no.
39:17
Speaker 6: Exercise the right to believe, but say that that my
39:21
Speaker 6: worth is better.
39:22
Speaker 4: Than that, and my no solidifies me and I move
39:25
Speaker 4: forward towards my objectives, towards my accomplishments. Because of my no,
39:30
Speaker 4: my belief puts me in a want sort of scenario.
39:34
Speaker 4: It makes me want things because of what I believe.
39:37
Speaker 6: So take that.
39:39
Speaker 1: So it's it's really the power of knowing, I guess.
39:43
Speaker 4: And that's why the innocence come home because they knew
39:47
Speaker 4: they're innocent. They knew that they would come home. They
39:51
Speaker 4: didn't want to come home. So I want to go home.
39:54
Speaker 4: I want to go home. No, they say I'm going home.
39:56
Speaker 4: I'm innocent.
39:58
Speaker 1: That's a powerful message. And think that we can all
40:01
Speaker 1: learn from that, and I'm going to have to really
40:03
Speaker 1: process that. It's interesting because I've never heard it phrased
40:07
Speaker 1: in that way. And you know, I've listened and I've
40:10
Speaker 1: learned from so many incredible people, so many spiritual people
40:14
Speaker 1: who've been through ordeals like what you've been through, people
40:16
Speaker 1: from all walks of life. But I've never heard anybody
40:19
Speaker 1: put it that way. And I think that, Like I said,
40:21
Speaker 1: I'm really glad that you shared that. So I'm glad
40:24
Speaker 1: you're here in San Diego. I'm glad to be here
40:26
Speaker 1: with you. It's a beautiful day.
40:28
Speaker 6: Thank you. Can we get a shout out to exonerated nation?
40:31
Speaker 1: Exonerated nation?
40:32
Speaker 5: Yeah?
40:32
Speaker 1: Is there anything else you want to do? You want
40:34
Speaker 1: to plug you any social media or any other projects
40:36
Speaker 1: that you're working on, Like the.
40:37
Speaker 4: Only project that I'm working on right now is Exonerating Nation.
40:40
Speaker 6: The other project is a personal.
40:42
Speaker 4: Project, personal project, but my public project is Exonerated Nation,
40:51
Speaker 4: and that's what I'm doing right now. So I just
40:52
Speaker 4: want to give a shout out to Exonerating Nation and
40:55
Speaker 4: all those potential or desired supporters.
40:59
Speaker 1: And how did people if they want to learn more
41:01
Speaker 1: about Exonerated Nation A.
41:02
Speaker 4: Couple of different ways. So I do have a website.
41:03
Speaker 4: It's called it Exonerated Nation. You can look it up
41:05
Speaker 4: online as a website. Also have a Facebook page that
41:08
Speaker 4: you can also go.
41:08
Speaker 1: On Exonerate Nation dot com.
41:10
Speaker 4: Yeah, dot com, you can go on there. I employ
41:12
Speaker 4: people to follow and those things. But the only reason
41:16
Speaker 4: why I asked you to follow is because.
41:18
Speaker 6: I need you to work. You're following with no actions
41:23
Speaker 6: doesn't help.
41:24
Speaker 4: I need follow me so that we can dig this
41:27
Speaker 4: ground and submit in justice as it's supposed to.
41:32
Speaker 6: You're following its action.
41:34
Speaker 4: It's not a metaphorical situation to say I'm following them.
41:38
Speaker 4: Oh no, So what do you mean you're following them?
41:40
Speaker 1: All right?
41:40
Speaker 6: What kind of following are you stalking?
41:45
Speaker 1: Well?
41:45
Speaker 6: No, I think kind of following.
41:46
Speaker 4: What you need you need to describe and when you
41:48
Speaker 4: describe you're following.
41:50
Speaker 6: You want to describe a.
41:51
Speaker 4: Support I'm doing this, I'm doing that, I'm doing this,
41:54
Speaker 4: and I'm doing that.
41:55
Speaker 1: Well, you gotta first learn and get involved. And the
41:57
Speaker 1: good news is I think we're because of what's going
41:59
Speaker 1: on in this country right now in the world, when
42:01
Speaker 1: what I call the new Age of activism, I think
42:04
Speaker 1: there's more people than ever that want to get involved.
42:06
Speaker 1: They want to learn from people like you. They want
42:07
Speaker 1: to help prevent injustice and fight against this crazy situation
42:12
Speaker 1: that we find ourselves in, not just in the criminal
42:14
Speaker 1: justice system, but in general and make this world a
42:17
Speaker 1: better place. And you're doing an incredible job, and I
42:20
Speaker 1: really appreciate you sharing your experienced strength and hope with
42:23
Speaker 1: our listening audience, and I know it is going to
42:26
Speaker 1: have an impact on many of them. So I hope
42:28
Speaker 1: that makes you feel good, because.
42:29
Speaker 4: It does, and I thank you for the opportunity, and
42:31
Speaker 4: I really appreciate it.
42:38
Speaker 1: Don't forget to give us a fantastic review wherever you
42:41
Speaker 1: get your podcasts. It really helps. And I'm a proud
42:45
Speaker 1: donor to the Innocence Project, and I really hope you'll
42:47
Speaker 1: join me in supporting this very important cause. And helping
42:51
Speaker 1: to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocence Project dot
42:54
Speaker 1: orgorg to learn how to donate and get involved. I'd
42:58
Speaker 1: like to thank our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wardis.
43:01
Speaker 1: The music in the show is by three time OSCAR
43:03
Speaker 1: nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on
43:06
Speaker 1: Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast.
43:12
Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flahm is a production of Lava
43:15
Speaker 1: for Good Podcasts in association with Signal Company Number one