Latest / Brands, Beats & Bytes / REMIX: Album 5 Track 27 - Navigating Marketing with Relationships, Resilience, and Agility w/Kelly Flatow

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REMIX: Album 5 Track 27 - Navigating Marketing with Relationships, Resilience, and Agility w/Kelly Flatow · Brands, Beats & Bytes

• DC: You're listening to the Brands, Beats, and Bytes podcast with listeners in over 50 countries. This is kind of wild for me, Larry, that we've got listeners and Brand Nerds in 50 plus countries, but it is crazy. So brand nerds, uh, today is a very special for me. We have as a guest today, an expert in the area of branding, you know, we always have those kinds of people, but we also have a person who, while she is incredible as an executive, she is an even better human being and Brand Nerds. As you matriculate through your careers, you're going to run into people who are really, really good at the craft of marketing. I mean, they are phenomenal, but you would not so much as want to walk by them on a street. You just wouldn't want to do it. But this is someone that you'd want to sit down and have dinner with and just find out what it's like to go through the gauntlet of a, of a senior level career, yet protect the essence of who you are. This is an incredibly, incredibly unique talent and ability and Brand Nerds, I cannot wait to get into this episode of Brands, Beats and Bytes with you, with this particular person, Larry, give a little flowers to the person we have in the house today. LT: Oh, D, we. I can't wait. DC We have Kelly Flatow in the house today. Welcome, Kelly. Kelly Flatow: Thank you so much. I'm embarrassed by DC's intro, but the feelings are all mutual. LT: Well, Kelly, be prepared to be embarrassed more, and we mean that in a good way, because Kelly, with great guests like yourself, we love for our Brand Nerds to really hear the path that one has taken from college to present day. So we're going to take our Brand Nerds through that for you. So Kelly went to college at American University, earning her degree in communication and media studies. After graduating AU, Kelly gets into the industry first as an account coordinator at Old City Group, then moves over to Gansey Productions as manager of events and business development, and then goes to work for ProServe as an account director, which many of the younger brand nerds may not know, but ProServe was really one of the true OGs of sports marketing. Founded by former professional tennis player and attorney Donald Dell with clients in all facets of sports marketing, such as TV rights, deals, sponsorship packaging and athlete representation, including a guy you may have heard of named Michael Jordan. At ProServe and eventually SFX Sports, who acquired ProServe, Kelly manages a portfolio of product and service marketers, including Hershey and Staples, and she helps build the strategies for negotiating and activating the naming rights for Staples Center, which is now Crypto.com arena down in LA which was a real milestone naming rights deal in 1998. Kelly, in our small world, small world, a previous guest, Marci Grebstein, talked about her weekly trips to LA from Boston. Working on this from the Staples client side, thought you'd find that a little funny. DC: Mm-hmm. Kelly Flatow: That's great. LT: Yeah. So anyway, brand nerds, please note the increase in responsibility for each of these moves Kelly makes. Well, now Kelly makes another big move and goes to work for CAA as a brand agent. She is a founding member of the Corporate Marketing Department at CAA and builds entertainment marketing programs or relationships for brands you may have heard of such as Coca Cola, Motorola, and Delta Airlines. Clearly, Kelly really impresses some folks at Coca Cola HQ since she is now recruited to come work for Coca Cola to be the key conduit for the company and the entertainment community where she really leads relationships with the Oscars, American Idol, and Jay Z, to name a few. So soon after that, NBA HQ at Olympic Tower in New York City comes a call in, and Kelly joins the NBA as VP of Strategic Marketing, focused on creating marketing solutions for prospective marketing partners. After this successful stint at the NBA, Kelly gets another stellar opportunity in the entertainment industry, becoming a senior vice president of partnership marketing at Live Nation, the world's leading ticket company and largest promoter of live concerts. Kelly joins, joins prior to their merger with Ticketmaster and builds out the enterprise's affiliate and strategic partnership program and develops and launches Live Nation social media platform. The next and last move. Is Brand Nerds is a great illustration of how Kelly clearly understands people relationships and that's what DC was alluding to at the very beginning and not burning bridges is so essential and actively working one's career. Kelly goes back to the NBA, where she has been now for the past 14 years. Her first role after rejoining the NBA is the SVP of Global Marketing Partnerships, where she leads the development and activation of marketing assets, driving growth across the US, Europe, Latin America, China, and Asia. After four years, Kelly then becomes the interim head of marketing. Before getting promoted to our current role as Executive Vice President of Global Events. So check this out Brand Nerds, in this role. Kelly leads a global team of business leaders, creators and operators responsible for developing and executing events and experiences across the NBA, WNBA, NBA G League, NBA 2K League, and USA Basketball. Additionally, Kelly oversees all aspects of the league's tentpole events, including NBA All Star, NBA Finals, NBA Global Games, NBA Draft and NBA Summer League, as well as a portfolio of fan first lifestyle and grassroots experiential businesses such as NBA Experiences after play was suspended following the start of a COVID 19 pandemic, Kelly and her team spearheaded the strategy and execution of the 2019- 2020 NBA restart when the league resumed its season at the ESPN Wide World of Sports Complex at Walt Disney World Resort. Lastly, Kelly is a member of the National Sports Marketing Network of W.I.S.E which is women in sports and events, and is an active mentor in the sports marketing industry. And by the way, Brand Nerds we know that firsthand. This is gonna be a fun one. Brand nerds. Welcome to Brands, Beats and Bytes, Kelly Flatow. Kelly Flatow: Wow. Thank you Larry. That, um, it's sort of awkward to hear all of that in one place, um, but um, but I really appreciate it. DC: Yeah. Uh, Kelly, this is all you, all the flowers of what you've done. And then, uh, Larry does an exceptional job of this with each one of our guests. And it's interesting, Kelly, watching the countenance of our guests as they're hearing about themselves, because we, we, we believe that this doesn't happen very often to people that they're sort of what they've done has been, uh, just run down like that. So Larry, thank you, uh, brother for that. Well done as you always do. So Kelly, um, the next section is Get Comfy, but, and I've got two of them. Normally we only have one, but I've got two of them for you, but before we get to the, uh, Get Comfy, uh, section, I, I want to share with the Brand Nerds. Um, I know Kelly really, really well. Um, we have been, uh, partners together where, when she was at CAA establishing their branding and marketing practice. Um, I was leading entertainment, marketing, and advertising at The Coca Cola Company. So this is where we met. This is where we, uh, where we met and, uh, and work together. So I know her from the perspective of a client when she was at the agency. And then Brand Nerds, after starting my own firm with Larry and, uh, and Jeff, Brand Positioning Doctors, Kelly hired us. So she was the client at the NBA and we were the agency working with her. So I know Kelly really, really well, and Kelly's also a friend. So now I'm gonna move on to, uh, to, to, to Get Comfy. Alright. So Kelly, you are at the, the highest levels of marketing and, uh, and you are in the domain of sports as Larry has, uh, has pointed out. Sports is dominated mostly on the field, on on, on ice, on a court by men. And the executive ranks are mostly, particularly the senior most ranked, uh, ranks, Kelly are dominated by men. I'm a girl dad. I've got, I've got three daughters. I'm a girl dad. Uh, one of whom did an internship at your company, the NBA, that's Sydney. So as, as you, uh, as you think about your navigating, what are some of the things that you can say to the Brand Nerds out there, particularly the, the, the women, but, but all others. Of what it, what it, what you've learned through your journey in a, in a industry dominated by males, what have you learned on your way up? Kelly Flatow: Well, I'm going to take it two steps back to take it one step forward, DC, which is, um, I was really fortunate to grow up as one of four. I have three brothers. So I grew up in a household where, I didn't know the difference between what a girl could do and what a boy could do. It was just go out there and do it. And in fact, I, um, I'll never forget being signed up for a, a, the Packer Gogolak soccer camp. And the only two girls at the soccer camp were my cousin and I, and she got stung by a bee and she's allergic and left camp. So I was left there as the only girl. And so I had a history and a tradition of being told, just go out there and do it, make it happen. So, um, you know, it was no surprise to me when I got into the sports business. I've been incredibly fortunate to have mentors, men and women, but probably frankly, more men than women. Who have, um, who have coached me, who have pushed me, who, um, have helped train me to do exactly what, you know, my parents and, um, you know, my grandparents told me, which was just go out there and, And do it. Do your thing. Um, and it's turned into a bit of a brand for me, which is, um, to go out there and make stuff happen. It's sort of my trademark and I enjoy it and I think I learned it at a young age and it served me well. DC: I didn't know that about you, uh, going to a, a soccer camp, being two, and then down to the only one. Little girl. They're trying to get it popping with the little boys. I didn't. I didn't look at that. Kelly. All right. Um, so there's something said in business. You've probably heard this Kelly and Larry, I'm sure you have as well, that oftentimes businesses get transformed with, uh, by people who don't know they're supposed to do something a certain way. They just come in and go, I'm going to try what I think I need to try. I'm going to, I'm going to go out there and just do it. To use Nike's phrase and see what happens, make it happen, just make it happen. And, uh, it's because of that, that, uh, innovation occurs. So that makes a lot of sense, uh, about you and, uh, and what you've done through your career, uh, Kelly, you never saw yourself as, well, I'm the woman here, I'm the female here. So maybe I need to like, you know, bend here, adjust there. You just have been making it happen. You have made it as a result. I think that's dope. Larry, any, any response to that before I go to my next Get Comfy. LT: Just a quick one, Kelly. I love that story and what you're really saying is, You know, no matter the situation, find your place and just do it. Right. Like just make it happen in your, in your way. Kelly Flatow: Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think that that's probably more important in business today than it's ever been, which is, um, you know, in order to succeed, you have to fail some times too. And that is about, has to be somewhere in the definition of innovation. So I feel strongly about that. Things, um, things don't get done waiting for them to happen. They get done by going out and trying. LT: Yep. All right. DC: Thanks, Larry. Here's the next one. All right, Brand Nerds. There is, uh, an author of a book. He's not an author by trade. He's a, uh, entrepreneur and he is now a VC, one of the most successful in the world. His name is Ben Horowitz and he is. One of the two that lead the VC firm, Andreessen Horowitz, and what they are known for is have identifying founders early stage and a lot and backing founders who are CEOs of running their company. All right. So Ben Horowitz, who's also a really big Kelly, interesting hip hop fan, Ben Horowitz, he has a book that he wrote called The Hard Thing About Hard Things. This is his book. It is a fantastic book. Brand Nerds. I encourage you to read it and we'll put that in the show notes as well. But one of the things he talks about, Kelly, is, uh, hiring people. And so there are these other books out there and theories about hiring people. Like you look for these skills and these kinds of things. And Ben Horowitz says, forget all of that. I want to know what happens when there is a founder CEO, who's some number of weeks from cash burning completely, they've got to make payroll and they've got to figure out a way to survive that period and still grow their business. I want to know what that person will do in that situation. Said another way, when the fire is at its hottest, how is this executive going to respond? I love that from Ben Horowitz. Love that. Which brings me to my next Get Comfy. So I'm going to remove the names to keep the innocent, innocent. Guilty guilty, but I'm gonna remove the names Kelly and I, Brand Nerds were working on a, on a project, major movie franchise, major movie franchise, uh, that was about to launch. And I wasn't major yet. It was about to begin production. So this is nothing at launched yet. And trust me, this is one of the biggest movie franchises on the globe ever, but this is when it was beginning to be birthed. And so as you can imagine, uh, we wanted to the company that I was with at the time, we wanted to be a partner with this, a competitor of ours had already gained the agreement that they were going to be the partner with this movie and so we were crushed. So, uh, we, we had friends fortunately that came to us and said, hey, we've got a shot here of possibly flipping this, but everything has got to be perfect. The pitch has got to be perfect. All of the contacts with the, the person who is on the studio side. It's got to be perfect with the person who created the, the IP. Everything has to be perfect. And by the way, you got like a couple weeks, maybe, maybe. This was the scenario in which Kelly and I and others. Uh, shout Seth Matlins my boy that we found ourselves in. And so Kelly and I were in like the foxhole together trying to craft this pitch. He knows exactly what I'm talking about. So here is here's the question, Kelly. Um, what have you learned about those pressure packed situations? And what it requires to deliver a great result when under duress and quite frankly, the odds were against us. And let me just say this spoiler alert. We got it. We got Kelly. Kelly Flatow: We didn't just get it. DC. We, we won it. And those were, those were some, those were some tough days, but that's for, for another conversation. So my answer to that is, I think three things. There are three things that I look for going back to your point about, and I'm going to read The Hard Things About Hard Things and see what Ben Horowitz has to say, particularly about hiring people, which is, I think there's three things in those, those pressure cooker situations that are as true today as they were when we were working on that pitch. One is relationships. I think that this is, um, we live in a world where relationships matter in life and in business and being able to really understand what people want to get out of things before they get into it is critical. Being able to understand where objectives converge and diverge is important. Understanding how people feel about things is important. And in relationships, being able to do things before someone even asks you to do something for them. And I think that one of the things, again, without divulging too much about the project that we worked on, that I think helped us win that pitch was coming up with a cause marketing campaign and approaching it in a way no one expected us to. No one expected us to. And take the global power of the brand with which we were working to be able to execute on that. So, uh, relationships is number one. Um, number two is resilience. Being able to, you know, address whatever is in front of you, break it down and build it back up and still be there to finish the day. And then the third part, maybe more important now than it's ever been, particularly learnings post pandemic, which is nimbleness. Being able to, being able to pivot, being able to understand what the factors are that no one challenges like another one. You learn lots of things from, uh, different experiences and then you apply those learnings, but being nimble when you're not really sure what's coming next. And I, I find today that's something that is maybe more true now than ever, which is there's so much, there's so much change in the world and I think the only thing we can count on is change. So being nimble and being able to address, um, maybe some of the things we don't know, um, and being comfortable with that. When you put those three things together, I think that's a, that's a mix that has served me well. LT: That's deep stuff, Kelly. That's awesome. And I think part of what you're saying with the nimbleness too, is to be truly nimble. You've got to be clear headed. You have to, you know, take things where not get too high, not get too low, right? Like to really keep your poise. Because, again, I, you know, we, you guys are, have, uh, mentioned this wonderful, uh, situation where you won this, uh, this, this great opportunity that you didn't think you were going to win. And then I think of everything that happened in 2020 when you and your team had to deal with, you talk about having to be nimble when you had to go down to Orlando and make all that happen. But you gotta have poise, right? To be clear headed about it all. Kelly Flatow: Absolutely. I think, though, that it is, I don't know poise for sure. But even more so, um, just an understanding of all the inputs, really being able to take in all the information and understand what all the factors are. And I think that's why it's that's why I think diversity and inclusion is so important because understanding different points of view, right? The point of view of which I see a situation is going to be very different than how someone else sees the situation. And so getting inputs, to be able to, um, really informed decision making, I think is really, is really important. LT: That's huge. Um, and really what you're saying, uh, with getting the inputs is to have that, to have that clear headedness of understanding where people are coming from and synthesizing it all. Um, and DC says this all the time. We say this a lot. It's really slow down to then move fast. DC: Uh, yep. I actually just wrote that down. I was about to say it. You said it for me. Uh, this is what Kelly and I, and the teams that we were a part of, uh, and also led, we slowed down to speed up and Kelly and your, uh, relationships, resilience, and nimble I want to go back to relationships. So brand Nerds. This was before, long before Zoom and that kind of thing. Kelly lived out in California at the time. She flew to Atlanta. Once we knew this was going down, she flew to Atlanta and was in the office every day with me. Every single day as we went through this thing. So that, that, that's one part about our relationship. The second is that there were, there may be some years where Kelly and I don't talk to one another. We may not text or that kind of thing. Cause we got busy lives. She can, she can text or call me anytime, day or night, ask me for anything. And if it is within my power to do it, I will do it. And she will do the same. This is the power of, uh, of, of relationships. So Brand Nerds, this relationships, resiliency, and nimbleness, definitely keep that in mind that this is, these are golden jewels that Kelly is dropping. Okay. So that's the Get Comfy thing. So any more Larry, before we move to, uh, all right. All right. So Brand Nerds, uh, you all know it's now time for me. Kelly, we have a, we have a sponsor, we have a sponsor in our podcast and Larry does the reading of the sponsor. So brand nerds, we're going to go to that. Larry, would you please, uh, uh, bless the Brand Nerds with the sponsor? LT: Sure will. DC: All right. Brand Nerds. Next section. Next, next section. We are going to five questions. Here's how, here's how this goes down. Kelly. I ask a question, Larry, ask a question. We go back and forth until we arrive at five. I get to kick this off. All right. Kelly, what was the first branding experience that you can recall where it felt to you like there was some exhilaration, some exuberance. Almost like a first love, you were so into this brand and or brand experience. What was that for you? Kelly Flatow: I'm going to go with my favorite brand, which has been a part of my life for as long as I can remember, but it didn't understand the story and the why until later in life. So that is the brand of Santa Claus. LT: Wow. Okay. I love this. Kelly Flatow: Everyone. Well, maybe not everyone. I have loved Santa Claus. For as long as I can remember. The story of Santa Claus, though, goes back to, um, the fourth century A. D. with a man named Nicholas, who was canonized and became a saint. And at the time, all the renderings of Saint Nicholas were of a tall, gaunt man, um, with a pointy hat, more like a, um, more like a bishop. And then eons later in the Netherlands, um, there was a tradition around the Feast of St. Nicholas. I don't know, maybe this is coincidence, maybe this isn't, but then St. Nicholas came to a Dutch colony in, uh, New Amsterdam, which is, Uh, now, uh, called New York City, where I currently live, and, um, with a Dutch colony of, um, men that were called the Knickerbockers, I happen to work for the NBA, where the New York team is the New York Knicks, so again, maybe a coincidence, maybe not, and, um, at the time, even then, in the 1800s. Um, people were still rendering, um, St. Nicholas as a, um, a tall gaunt man, looked more like a bishop. In the 1920s, Coca Cola started using illustrations in the Saturday evening post, and started using illustrations of a man that was a little bit more round, more plump, with a, with a red suit. Christmas was, and still is, a big part of Coca Cola's Um, business. And in 1931, they hired an artist to make that illustration of Santa Claus. Um, a little bit more welcoming, a little bit more approachable. I think he probably got a little plumper even then. And, um, that's the Santa we primarily see today. Um, rosy cheeks, white beard, red suit. Um. Friendly, um, approachable, and that's a brand that no matter what religion you are, um, where around the world you see Santa, I think is attributable to, um, you know, the modern day version attributable to Coca Cola and their marketing and the business which they built during, um, during the holiday season. So, um, talk about great branding. Um, I'm not sure how many people know of the connection between Santa and Coca Cola, but I just I love that. I love Santa and I love that connection. Um, a, uh, mentor of mine uses in every interview, um, that he does, and I've taken it from him. Every interview, he asks the question, what's your favorite brand? Not because it matters what the answer is, but because he wants to see how people are going to answer the question. So I have. Adopted that as part of my interview routine, knowing that in my mind, if I were ever asked the question, and I'm glad you just did, that my answer would be Santa. LT: Oh, D. DC: Wow. Wow. LT: D, go ahead. You gotta, I know you have a reaction to this. DC: I do. First I gotta say, uh, Larry. I don't think we've had an answer like that in a history lesson, going back to A. D. LT: Not only that, we can now, you know, with our, Kelly, we have about 150 episodes, we now have the breakdown of Santa Claus and Christmas. Just done by the great Kelly Flatow here that we can point to if anybody wants to understand it. It's amazing. DC: This is something, okay, so, uh, Because I spent some time to Brand Nerds know, Kelly, you certainly do, at the Coca Cola company, as did Larry, as did Jeff. I didn't know any of this before I started working at the Coca Cola company. LT: I didn't either. DC: So I want to, I want to sprinkle a little, little more sauce on this, just a wee bit more. So the Santa that we know today, not that gaunt Santa with the pointy hat, not the bishop like Santa, but the more, uh, rotund, shall we say, more rotund. With the red suit. With the red suit. Uh, that Santa is actually called Sunbloom Santa, Sunbloom Santa. After the artist Haddon, H A D D O N, Sunbloom. So that this, that's why it's called Sunbloom Santa. Now, the agency that created it is the D-ARY agency, D apostrophe A R Y agency. They, they created it and Sunbloom, Haddon Sunbloom created Sunbloom Santa based on a retired salesperson at Coca Cola. Wow. Kelly Flatow: Oh, I didn't know that part of it. LT: I didn't either, Kelly. DC: Yes. Lou Prentiss, okay? And so, this is how this all came to be. So now, and then I'll go to you, Larry. So listen, Brand Nerds. Just because you don't know the history of something, of a brand that you may love, doesn't mean the history, uh, doesn't exist. You love for those of us who love the brand of Santa Claus, let's get let's remove religion for a moment, just the brand of Santa Claus, the someone thought through this thing, so that we would have the perception of the brand we have today, whether you know it or not is inconsequential, it is, and then I'll give this other example, branding and history and storytelling that creates great brands is a bit like gravity. You cannot understand gravity or you cannot respect gravity, but if you walk off of a 50 story building, you will quickly become acquainted. Okay. With the principles of gravity, the same can be said of a brands. All right, Larry. LT: No, I love your breakdown. And it's funny, again, all three of us having been, uh, we affectionately called KO Alums, which is the stock ticker for Coca Cola. Uh, I didn't know any of the history of, of Santa Claus, like you all just broke it down until I started working for Coca Cola. And, you know, back in the day, they would let you choose the art that you wanted in your office. And so I remember going down there and seeing all these wonderful Santa Claus illustrations that were just incredible. Um, so yeah, and I'm so glad Kelly broke it down the way she did. Um, what I'm struck with, I don't know if either of you have seen the movie Barbie. Um, but I saw it recently and what was amazing about the movie, obviously a billion dollars plus, it's really resonated with folks. But they managed to get the origin story of Barbie into the movie. In a way that is so incredible again, and we're the only kind of people that would notice this kind of stuff. And so they contemporize Barbie to make Barbie incredible for 2023 and beyond, but they put it, the origin story of Barbie is in the movie and has done it in such a cool and entertaining way. That, you know, that's another thing that people don't realize they're being entertained, but they're also taking they're taking on a path of a brand in that in this specific instance. It's happening right now. Kelly Flatow: Very cool. DC: All right, Larry. Shall we go to the next question? LT: Yes, let's do it. Uh, wait, Kelly. That was great. So the 2nd question is who is had or is having the most influence on your career. Kelly Flatow: So I'm going to go with the 3 point play here. I like things. Yeah, Maybe because I've worked in basketball now so long. I like three points. I like starting five. You guys have given me the opportunity to weave in three and I Yes, we love threes cast over time. You've got five questions. So I really I appreciate it I'm gonna get DC to go with tip off instead of kickoff by the time this podcast but um in any case, um influence in um in my career, I mean, one again, I'm going to throw it back. Um, my dad, role model coach, um, taught me to lead by example. You'd lead from the front, work hard, do what you say, say what you do. Really simple stuff. LT: What's your dad's name? Kelly Flatow: Peter, Peter Flatow and then the second person and DC already gave him a shout out is. Imagine this. You work for the same person in your career three times. I have done that. His name is Seth Matlins. I've worked for him three times. Once at ProServe, once he called me and said, Hey, I started at CAA. I, um, I need you to move here. And, That's another story. I'll leave it today. He is. And then he hired me at Live Nation. Um, Seth is my rabbi. He is the one that, um, you know, has taught me more about marketing and business and perhaps anybody, um, anybody else in my life. Um, he is also a man of tough love. He's told me when I'm doing it well, and he's told me when I'm not, um, but he has, um, he has always been in my, um, in my corner. He's now at the Forbes CMO Network doing some of his best work, um, best work yet. So that's two. And then three is, um, unfortunately the late, um, but the great David Stern, um, talk about vision and innovation and drive. Um, just incredible. One of the I've learned so many things from him, but one of the things that, um, is, um, is true about him that he used to say is micromanagement is underrated so much that when he when he retired from the NBA, he named a company Micromanagement Ventures and, um, really, that was in my mind his way of saying details matter. And, um, and I I believe that, um, in, in everything I've, um, that I've ever done. So, um, you to DC's first question to me when we started this about women. I'm sorry there isn't a woman in my top three. Um, although there have been tremendous number of women who have been incredibly influential. In, um, in my life, but when it comes to influence on my career, um, it's certainly these three and then, um, uh, I don't want to say honorable mention, but, um, a really close third would be, uh, be Perez, um, who was my client at Coca Cola and then my boss at Coca Cola and, um, you know, talk about relationships and, and friendship, um, an incredible advocate and, um, and coach for me. I could go on, by the way. As I said, I've been really fortunate that I've had an extraordinary, extraordinary number of people who have had, um, an influence on, on my career and continue to do so today. LT: That's so deep. Do you mind if I do a quick, uh, comment here? Um, Brand Nerds I want to point this out to you. When somebody like Seth Matlins hires a person three different times, that says everything. And it goes back to what Kelly was talking about before. There's such a throughput, um, with, with Kelly in her story that her relationships matter. And obviously she's doing a kick ass job because nobody keeps hiring you unless you're doing a great job for them. So that is a huge thing I wanted to point out for everybody because if you, and then it goes back to Kelly's dad. Those basics are so important, like, just basically do the right thing, right? You know, do what you say you're gonna do, uh, and just get it done, and, and those basic principles, uh, spawn everything. DC: Yeah, I, uh, I feel that, uh, Larry, I, I gotta go back to, uh, Seth. So, uh, to those who are close to Seth, uh, Seth Matlins, and by the way, we're gonna put him in the show notes and tag him on this. We call him Jimmy. Okay, we call, we call him Jimmy. Kelly knows this. We call him Jimmy. So I'm going to say this about Jimmy. Uh, Kelly, you mentioned tough love. For those of you all who know Seth, he does not suffer fools. So some people can be in the presence of a foolish person saying foolish things and exit that conversation with that said person, said foolish person. Thinking, ah, you know, they, you know, I made some pretty good points and I'm, and I'm glad I did. That's never happening with Seth. If you are a foolish, foolish person saying foolish things to Seth Matlins, he's going to let you know you're saying foolish things at that time. Kelly, am I lying? No matter who's in the room. Kelly Flatow: You are right, my friend. DC: It does not matter. Yeah, it does not matter. And you will, you will quickly understand. Oh, I've said some foolish things now. And if you continue after he, he will, he will do this graciously. Let you know, these were some foolish things that were said. It won't be, he, he's not overly aggressive about it, but he's just enlightening you. Now, if you are so foolish that you're not getting the hint now, now it's going to get bad for you. Now it's not going to be so, so good for you. So here's the deal with, uh, Kelly. And, um, and Seth, the reason why he hired you three times and the reason why you were prepared to work with the late great David Stern, who was a micromanager is because Seth is like a fine wine. He gets even better with time. And he poured that into you, Kelly, so that you were able to deal with David Stern, who also. Suffers no fools. Yeah. Or suffered no fools. So I love that about this, uh, this story. And also shout. Shout Be Perez. Shout be Perez. LT: Yes. Awesome. That's great stuff. Do you wanna go to the third question? DC: I do. Thank you, Larry. Alright. Kelly, you've had your flowers, all of these things, fanciful things. You've had all of these wonderful accolades and you've been written about, you've been very successful for this next question, Kelly, I'd like to hear absolutely nothing about any of those things. This question is about your biggest F-up. I mean, a big fat stinking one that was on you, nobody else on you. And most importantly, what you learned from it. Kelly Flatow: All right. I got one for you. I mean, I have lots of them, but this one was very, very early in in my career, thank goodness. I learned it early enough to effectuate on, um, on days ahead. But so early in my career, um, as Larry was so gracious to point out, I was at, um, I was at ProServe, um, and one of my clients was, uh, Hershey's and my, uh, my role at Hershey's was to, um, manage their NFL partnership and, um, negotiate their team deals. Meanwhile, when I got there, I was almost, you know, it was after the 96 Olympics and I, um, was new to, um, doing team deals. I was completely new to the NFL, but of course at a young age, I thought I knew everything. So I just jumped right in and, um, I go and have conversations with teams and, um, I walk into my boss's office. And, um, super proud of myself and I start to walk through the deals that I had, um, I had negotiated and the outcomes and, um, you know, talking about, um, you know, what I thought was a really innovative idea that the Atlanta Falcons had proposed, which was that we should drop Hershey kisses from a blimp. In the stadium, and I thought it was a great idea. And the moment it came out of my mouth, I could tell by the look on my boss's face that something was wrong. And he looks at me and he goes, Kelly, you know it's a dome, right? And it was as if the world stopped. No, no, I didn't know it was a dome. I mean, I now know you can have a blimp in a dome, but... His point was, like, it's not an outdoor stadium, you fool. I mean, go back to talking about foolish things, DC so, what did I learn from that? What I learned was, do your homework. Figure out what are the, what are the details. And don't take anything for granted. And, um, I'll never forget that deadpan voice. It was, it was clearly impactful on me. Um, when he said, you know, Kelly, it's a dome and, um, you know, find out what you don't know before you open your mouth and start talking about what you think you do know. Um, and that's just a, it's a really basic life lesson. Um, that again, I was fortunate to learn early on in my career and I'm glad I did. I try not to make those kinds of mistakes anymore. LT: Oh, I love this story. D, your reaction? DC: Yours, yours, yours, Larry. That's good. LT: You know what's, Kelly, I'm struck with, um, we've been really lucky to get the caliber of guests like yourself who come on the show, and I'm struck with because we always ask this question, and I've noticed a trend and one of the trends is that a lot of our a lot of real prominent guests like yourself make these f ups when they're young and they really make sure they they take it to heart and and um and not only take it to heart but you took something that is to your point a David Stern thing It's a detail, but you've making it a whole lot bigger. You said that look at two, not just what you F'd up in this situation, but wow, this is a bigger tenant that I've learned here. It's about making sure that I do my homework because if I did my homework, I wouldn't have made this F up. And so that permeates everything that you do. So that's what I'm struck with is, is we've all done way worse than that. You, you know, um, but the fact that you took that. And made it something that you've carried forth to take you to prominence, I think is the big part of this. DC: I agree. There's another thing here, uh, Larry and Kelly. So Kelly, you said do your homework. The reality is for every human, we operate in three concentric circles. Inside the smallest circle is I know what I know. One rung out is I know what I don't know. So that's the second rung. The third and final rung is I don't know what I don't know. And what was happening with Kelly and her doing her point about doing the homework is that she did not know what she did not know about the Georgia dome in Atlanta. She just did not know that. So my add to what Kelly said is do your homework. In doing your homework, ask people who might have a different mindset and perspective than you have. Because if Kelly did her homework and went and asked someone just like her... She's going to get, wow, Kelly, that's a great idea. Okay. But I'm going to connect this to Kelly's earlier point about diversity. If she'd asked someone that had a different, a different kind of intellectual perspective than hers, they might've been able to save her from having that first realization with her boss. Great example, Kelly. Great example. LT: Love it. DC: Yeah, that's uh, that, that's, that's really good. All right, Larry. Uh, next question, brother. LT: So, so Kelly, uh, next question is regarding technology and marketing. Um, you've seen a lot in your career with, uh, and has, as tech has continued to just be a bigger part of our lives, both personally and professionally. So can you tell us where you think marketers should lean in or best leverage tech? Or you can talk about areas or an area that you think that marketers should be leery. Kelly Flatow: Oh, there's so, there's so many spaces that that could go into. Um, and so I struggle to hone in on one. But listen, um, I'm gonna, um, I'm gonna focus on just how technology has turned the world upside down in a lot of ways. Now, by the way, I'm old enough to remember when I started working, we would FedEx documents and fax them. There was no 24 7, right? We are to a technology to be able to do that. And, um, you know, at the at the time, you know, we used to often talk about like marketing through sports and marketing through entertainment, and I still talk about that today. The one thing that, um, and I'll circle back on that. But one of the things that I think has changed tremendously with technology is that there's, um, A lot more in common with a kid in Shanghai as a kid in Chicago, and we're all bombarded with, I don't know, it used to be thousands of messages, maybe it's millions and millions of messages a day. Um, and so it's more challenging than ever to reach people and connect with people, which brings me back to, um, how do you make those connections? When we were at Coca Cola, we used to talk about share of stomach and share of wallet. And today, I spend a lot of time talking about share of mind. Right? Which is to say that there are, um, with all of these millions of messages that we as consumers are bombarded with, the only way to get somebody's attention is to be able to tap into something that they really care about. I'm really fortunate to work in the sports and entertainment space. Which are things people really care about. And, um, you know, we used to spend time on the agency side, when I was on the agency side, coaching clients about, don't call it sports marketing or entertainment marketing, because we're not marketing their sport. Rather, we're marketing through sports and we're marketing through entertainment. Right. Which is the basic premise of where there's passion, there's demand. And where there's demand, there's an opportunity to leverage it. LT: Right. Kelly Flatow: Not as, as true today as it was then. Um, you know, maybe continues with sort of this theme of age old traditions, um, or basic human truth that still apply today. And I certainly believe they, um, they do, which is, um, you know, how did it brings back to like, how do you capture people's attention when it's harder and harder, um, you know, to reach them. And I think that there are some. You know, recent advancements in technology that I'm seeing, particularly in the world I live in today in terms of creating events and experiences and that, uh, creating community and things that people want to be, um, want to be a part of, um, we have this incredible experience, um, this summer, um, uh, Madison Square Garden, um, has a new venue in Las Vegas called The Sphere using the space to and operate around technology enabled The Sphere to be turned into a basketball, right? Promoting summer league. And you can't drive anywhere in Las Vegas without seeing this incredible sight and I love when I see what Nike has done with 3D billboards where there's literally an Air Jordan coming towards you, right? Notion of seeing, you know, drone shows and how that captures people's attention. And I'm really fortunate again, when I talk about share of mind, we're competing in my day job competing with everything that people spend their discretionary time or money on and what is it? How do we connect with them and reach them where they are? And, um, it's I'm so fortunate that basketball is such a unifier, such a connector of people and, um, of of shared values. A simple game with easy access. Um, but I think that that notion of technology and the impact on your business. Um, is such an incredible challenge, but also such an incredible opportunity and one that I get excited about every day. And I think that there's, um, you know, there's more to come there. And then maybe the last point I want to make is one we've already talked about DC made this point, which is about storytelling, and I still believe that no matter what the technology is, no matter what the distribution platform is storytelling with. LT: Totally agree. Kelly Flatow: And telling, um, you know, telling, telling great stories, um, is what really captures the experience. LT: That was deep. Um, I'm struck with this, Kelly, as you were talking about that, and I'm not just saying this because this is right in the bailiwick of what you do, that with all the technology and with all the, you know, kids who have their phone in front of their face all the time. Um, there's nothing like experiential that, you know, that you talked about, there's nothing like touching people and basketball as a game. And then, as you get to the level of the NBA, which is at its highest, highest elements, um, there's a level of connection that can't be replicated with, you know, elsewhere. Um, and when you see, I've had the great fortune, Kelly, I mentioned this to you. I was a youth basketball coach, and then also we've been warrior season ticket holders and my son, Jake, who's 20 now we, Steph and Dell had a, a father son camp before Steph became Steph. Like in 2012 and we went to three years in a row and I saw the kids and their connection to Steph before he was, you know what I mean by before he was Steph right. Yeah. And there's something about what you know that connection, and it could be the 15th man on the wizards kids like you know the connection with NBA players, and their fans. Yeah. It's really special and the you guys have done a great job with summer league. Summer league has become 10 years ago there were just, you know, there was all the regional summer leagues and now you guys have really made it special in Vegas, and, um, and so the more you can connect the fans and people truly with the experience because let's face it. I'm lucky that we can afford game. Most people can't afford to go to the games. Yes, it's watching a television. Wonderful. But the experience, man, that's special. And that's what you were focused on that. How could technology enhance whatever the experiences of and the experiences actually in person touching people is huge. Kelly Flatow: I want to jump in and say one thing before DC goes, which is to your point, Larry, 99 percent of our fans around the world will never go to an NBA game, right? So, for me, events are content generating machines, right? So they help us bring authentic NBA experiences around the world. And some of the things that I'm most proud of are our ability to bring the game around the world, whether it's It's Mumbai or, um, you know, Abu Dhabi or, um, you know, any corner of the world, being able to see what it means to just, even if you don't speak the language, it's a basketball up and down. I'm looking LT: to say you speak basketball, right? Kelly Flatow: And, um, you know, that is the beauty of the game, simple game, easy access. Yes. I think, um, experiences. Live experiences are more important than they've ever been before. LT: Totally agree. DC: I'm with you both. You use the spear that's in, um, in Vegas. Um, and interesting that you use that example because I believe this whole thing about tech and then listening to your answer, Kelly, is about, uh, opening the aperture and changing the optics. Opening the aperture and changing the optics of how people see and feel something. That's what the sphere does. We've seen the Jumpman and Brand Jordan for 30 years. But we've never seen it like that. We've seen a basketball for more than 100 years. But we've never seen a basketball like that. What Kelly said is, It looks like it's coming at you. So this is a, this is the aperture opening and the optics being different. And so, uh, it reminds me of a quote, and this is where I think we get to the humanity of technology and the quote is from a Nobel Prize winner. Uh, I'm going to mess up his name. It's, it's, uh, Albert Vaughn. Like, um, uh, Scent S C E N T, and then it's dash G Y O R G Y. So I don't know how to pronounce that exactly. Albert Von, uh, sent, uh, and then I won't even attempt to pronounce the, uh, the other name. Okay. Yeah, but here, here's this quote, uh, and you know this, Larry, because we use this in our work. Discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what nobody has thought seeing what discovery consists of saying what everybody has seen and thinking what nobody has thought. This is where you get to true brilliance and experiential marketing. It's everybody else sees a dome. That's it. But somebody thought, Oh, no, it can be more than a dome. It can be an experience. Just looking at the dome where everybody else is like, no, no, you use the dome to either open or close so that you can have dryer away of rain, or so it can be cool or warm. That's how other people thought of the dome. Jerry Jones, owner of the Dallas Cowboys is one of the most brilliant marketers to have ever been born. That's why the Dallas Cowboys continue to be the highest value NFL team. I know I'm using domes. I know we're talking to an NBA person, but just. That's okay. Okay. So it's the highest value sport franchise, sports franchise in the world. He's got, he's got Jerry's world, which is AT& T Stadium right now. He didn't think of doing this. He didn't think of doing this. And I have found in my, in my work with Kelly, this is some, this is something that you do consistently. I remember, um, I think it was two years ago, NBA All Star Weekend. So today brand nerds, some of you may know Afro beats. And artists from Africa are all the rage globally. Kelly had some of the top Afro beat African musical artists, in the world, on stage with other hip hop artists and also other iconic artists like the weekend, et cetera, uh, Burna Boy. She had a fire boy. I think she had, these were artists that were not that well known on an American stage like that before had never been done. All Star Weekend. You see them all. That is she saw and the team, they saw what everybody else saw, but they thought something different. So that's my connection to that. LT: Love it. Kelly Flatow: It was just last year. DC, just last year, last year. Salt Lake, Salt Lake City. DC: Yeah. Salt Lake city. That's right. Last year. LT: All right. D should we go to the last question? Let's do it. DC: Kelly, what are you most proud of? Kelly Flatow: I think I gave this, this one away already, but, um, our, um, our time in the bubble. And maybe, maybe not for the reasons why you might think, um, all of the reasons why you probably would think, but more so because, um, it was so purpose driven from start to finish. It was, um, we knew what we needed to accomplish. And. Um, you know, talk about collecting information and inputs from so many different people. Um, I don't think I've ever worked on a project that involved so much collaboration and teamwork as that, um, at a time where so many people were isolated and divided, isolated because of the pandemic and divided because of politics or other reasons, right? Just. At the time, as a, uh, as a country, we were very isolated and divided, and to be able to accomplish what we did in the bubble, we had to be incredibly collaborative and, um, focus on teamwork, and, um, I didn't, I'd never heard this before, um, before I, I got there, um, in June of 2020, but there was, um, Walt Disney is quoted as saying, it's kind of fun to do the impossible. Um, and I can tell you he's right. Yeah. Um, it was kind of fun to do the impossible and, um, it was transformational in so many ways for so many people and I had people who, um, you know, Disney, uh, cast members, um, employees, the cast members, um, come up to me when we were, when we were there and say, thank you for doing this because of you, I have a job to go to every, um, every day, you know, there was, um, you know, at the time, um, so much, so much strife that was happening in the country. Um, and the Jacob Blake shooting happened in August, um, while we were in the bubble. And, um, the, um, the, the players decided to, to take a break and talk about whether they wanted to, um, continue and ultimately made the decision that they could, um, they could use their platform together, um, there, um, even better than perhaps if they went, they went home and coming out of, um, all of those conversations, we now have an NBA Foundation and a Social Justice Coalition. Um, so. There were, you know, I can't tell you how many people have said to me since then, like, I had something to, to watch when we were, you know, there wasn't much else going on, um, and how that brought people together as a community, um, the impact on me as an individual is profound, um, the, I mean, believe me, it was, it was, It's incredibly challenging. I don't think I ever want to do it again, but I'm glad that I, that I did it. I'm certainly most proud of, um, not just what we did, but how we did it, um, and how we, you know, pulled together, um, across experts in the medical community, um, my colleagues, the players, the, um, you know, just everyone at the Walt Disney Company. I don't think we could have done it with any other organization than, um, than Disney. Just incredible people and sort of bring it full circle. The notion of this is where I like relationships and resilience were incredibly important and because nimbleness all three and nimbleness. Thank you. You're right. You're right. Which is, you know, we had to rely on one another. That was all about relationships. You know, resilience, it was all about being able to overcome the unexpected and certainly nimbleness. You know, we had to be able to pivot. Nobody had done this before. And so every day, every day was, I can tell you firsthand, every day was different. Weren't sure what to expect day to day. So, um, and I could go on for hours on this. I'll, I'll stop there. I, um, but, um, a profound experience for me and what I'm really proud of. LT: Do you have a couple of follow up for Kelly? Is that cool? So Kelly, uh, were you there the whole time? Were you there from, you know, however people were counting those days? Kelly Flatow: I was there 110 days. Um, I, um, I was on the scene, um, in, uh, I think I arrived June 19th. Um, and, uh, I think my last day was October 10th or 11th. LT: Wow. Okay. So that I just wanted to let the Brand Nerds know, like you were right in, um, right in the middle of it all, literally and figuratively. And then the other thing is, as you were recounting this literally from the beginning of, and it's such a great thing to be proud of, you should be incredibly proud of it. Um, I was immediately struck with your three things immediately. Right. And I immediately thought of Jacob Blake. Because you talk about a lesson in, um, in it was the nimbleness you all needed and to be open to whatever was going to happen. And it felt like, you know, from Adam Silver on down to all of you in the NBA world uh, who are making these decisions and again having to be so nimble that you were really gonna go with the flow of what the players really felt and that's one of the things. I'm a basketball guy. The NBA is by far. This is personal for me, but I was really proud of of of the NBA and the way you all handled that because I felt like if the players voted to go home, you guys would have gone home and I feel like at the same time, I personally agreed with where you were going because it did for for a host of reasons that you alluded to. That was an incredible lesson. Of, um, of humbleness too, right? Like to be humble and to really be listening to everyone involved and not be paternal in that sense that many sports leagues have, uh, have always done. And I will call the NFL out in particular on that, um, where I feel that the NBA is just, um, is much more plugged into the entire community. And so hats off to you guys for all that you did. Kelly Flatow: Big props to, um, big props to our commissioner, Adam Silver, just, um, an incredible human being, um, that has, um, incredible vision and, um, relationship skills, for sure. LT: There you go, the relationships, relationship, resilience, and nimbleness. DC: Respect. Yep. Respect. All right, LT. LT: All right. So, Kelly, we're moving out of the five questions and we're going to what's popping? What's popping, D? What's popping, Kelly? DC: What's poppin? LT: Kelly, Kelly Flatow: Guys, guys, I got one. LT: Oh, yeah. Awesome. Well, this is our chance to shout out, shout down or simply have something happening around marketing today that we think is good fodder for discussion. And the floor is yours. Kelly Flatow: So the W. N. B. A. Playoffs started last night. So women's sports are on the glow up. Finally, they're getting their due. So, um, as I said, W. Playoffs start last night. Viewership. Is up 21 percent over last season. LT: Wow. Hold on a second. I want to put that 21 percent where everyone's streaming. Everyone's doing all these things. Like if you just stay even Brand Nerds, that's really an accomplishment to be up. Single digits is great to be up. 21 percent is amazing. I just want to put that in context. Go ahead. Go. Kelly Flatow: And then says update double digits. Wow. Social media. Is up the WNBA generated 373 million video views this this season, and I could spend the rest of our time talking about the W and the incredible accomplishments of the women in the W on the court and off the court. But there are so many other things that have happened recently in women's sports. Coco Gauff just won, uh, the U. S. Open. Um, but eight weeks ago, she had big loss at Wimbledon. And eight weeks later, she's winning the, um, the U. S. Open. The in August in Nebraska, they set a record for 96, 000 people in a stadium to watch a women's volleyball game. LT: Amazing. Kelly Flatow: Um, you know, Barbie, I'll go back. You, you saw the movie. I haven't seen the movie yet. Just, um, named this year's career of the year, women in sports. So they've got a Barbie GM, a reporter, coach, um, and a referee. I mean, so even Barbie's, um, Barbie's in on it. And last year we celebrated the 50th anniversary of, of Title Nine, which I think has made all, um, all of the difference women's world cup just, um, just happened viewership up versus 2019 for, for women's world cup. Um, and even marketers are in on it. Um, Ally Financial has done a big deal with ESPN where they've. Requested the 90 percent of their spending beyond women's sports. Google did a deal with The Athletic to carry more, um, more of women's, um, sports, particularly soccer and the WNBA. So, um, I think it's time for women's sports and, um, I'm glad to see, um, these incredible, um, athletes and organizations, um, getting their due. So, in my opinion, that's What's Poppin' Friends. LT: Oh, that's popping. D, what do you think? DC: Well, that's definitely popping for me as a girl, Dad. That's definitely popping for me. Uh, I am, I didn't know those stats on the, on the W side. It's, uh, it's good to hear them. Yeah, I'm going to, uh, go to a different area still in the, uh, in the women's sports category, uh, Kelly. So Aflac. One of our clients is Aflac. Yep. And, uh, they have, uh, over the last 18 months or so gone all in on the women's side of collegiate basketball. And one of their, uh, one of their partners is Dawn Staley, the incomparable, inimitable Dawn Staley, who is the, uh, is the head basketball coach of the South Carolina Gamecocks. Okay, so they were number two, uh, in the country, as you all know. I know you guys are sports fans and, uh, Sal salute to, uh, coach Mulkey with the, uh, L S U Tigers. So Don Staley's team who worked, they were the favorite coming in. Uh, Don Staley is a, um, is a W champion. NCAA champion, um, uh, Olympic gold medalist, high school player of the year and coach of the year as an, and, and a champion, uh, so she's got all of the hardware, amazing. Uh, she had something that she has talked about now for a bit that she calls the Dawn's list. So this Dawn's list. Is about resource equity, fanned experience, community engagement. These are the areas where she wants to close gaps. And so not only is the W and women's sport on the glow up for you, CMOs out there, the CMO of Aflac uh, dear friend of mine, Garth, uh, uh, Knutson, um, that that's my, uh, he's a, he's a very good friend of ours. Uh, and one of my, uh, one of my dear friends. He said early he's going to push his marketing chips into onto the table for the women's, uh, sports categories. Come on, other CMOs. Don't be late to the game. Now is the time to get into this. So I agree fully. LT: Yeah, I love that you did that one, uh, Kelly. And I want to specifically shout out because I, I noticed these things. I don't know if you got, did you guys watch Coco Gauff? Were you watching that live by chance? DC: I wasn't the Kelly Flatow: final. I didn't see the final match, but I followed along for sure. LT: Okay. So I happen to be, uh, I happen to catch the last few games and I was really looking forward to seeing that. And I want to shout out, this is incredible marketing stuff that maybe only us noticed. But Brand Nerds., you got to notice these things. So after, uh, after Coco wins, sell up, goes up to the stand, celebrates with her family, very emotional tears. She comes back down to her bag. And, you know, like tennis players do, they're, they're going to their bag, putting their racket away, and, and then she pulls out her bag, she takes her wristband off, and she puts a watch on, like, oh, that looks like a really nice watch. This is what I'm thinking, right? She puts her watch on, and, um, about 30 seconds later, they went to commercial. The commercial was from Rolex. And it was a congratulatory commercial. Congratulations, Coco Gough, for being, winning your first Grand Slam, winning the U. S. Open, you're amazing, Rolex logo with Coco integrated into it, and then it says official partner. Rolex and US Open. 30 second ad. They come right back. So it was the only app and like within five minutes of after she won, shout out to Rolex man and to Coco because she was putting, so I'm like, Oh, that was the watch she put on, right? Like, and then they come to look on Twitter. It's this special watch that, you know, you can't find any more like wonderful, beautiful marketing on everyone. That's win, win, win for everyone. So I wanted. I don't point that out specifically, but Kelly brought that up. Kelly Flatow: That's a great example. DC: That is a great example. Glow up, women's sports, Brand Nerds. LT: Yes, love it. DC: Especially you guys that are the CMOs, COOs, CEOs, E suite, S suite. Get in the game now. LT: Well, that's the point. That's what, that's what you're saying is you got to get in now. Because if you don't get in now, you're going to be too late to the party. And this is where consumers and fans are. Get in now. DC: Yes. Uh, uh, if you don't get in now, Brand Nerds, you senior brand nerds, and you get in late to Larry's point, consumers will, they'll sniff that out and go, Oh, you don't really support this. You're just in it because you think you can get something. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, that's good, Kelly. LT: That's a great one. It's a great one. Thank you for that, Kelly. So, D, we're at the close, man. We're at the, we're at the show close. Kelly, we posit our learnings. I'm gonna start, D. You mind? DC: Please do, brother. LT: All right. So, I got a host of them. So, Branders, um, I'm gonna keep it to seven plus a bonus for our wonderful, uh, um, uh, producer, Jeff Shirley, likes that an odd number. So, number one, like Kelly, go out and make stuff happen. And by the way, do it your way. Do it your way. Number two, in order to succeed, you have to fail sometimes too. Kelly's so right. She said that early on. Number three, seek mentors and then be a mentor yourself. And Kelly is an incredible model of that. Number four, we've talked about it many times, but that's the wonderful thing about beautiful marketing. You got to keep hitting it with the, with keep being, um, consistent with this message. That's the three things in pressure cooker environment that Kelly alluded to relationships, resilience, and nimbleness. Okay. Number five, getting inputs from a diverse group will actually help you make sure you have thought about everything you possibly can. If you have a diverse group of people coming at it from different angles. Number six, Kelly's dad, Peter Flato tenants lead from the front and do what you say you're going to do number seven, like David Stern said, details matter. And then the bonus one, like Hershey story in the biggest F-up by by Kelly, just do your homework, do it all the time. Those are mine. DC: Those are really good Larry. Those are really good. Kelly. Each time we do these, I make it an attempt to summarize what I am taking away from the soul of the person, uh, before me. And, uh, I'm listening to not only what you say, but also what you mean. And then I, I make an attempt to say, there are many different things that we all have to contribute to this thing called life. And I, I then go, what is it that I believe, just my opinion, this person is contributing to this journey called life. What, what is this special thing that this person is doing at a level or in a way, if they weren't doing it, it just wouldn't be getting done. So I'm going to attempt to do that with you now. Yeah. I'm going to, I'm going to make an attempt when we were, um, in the get comfy section and we talked about, uh, my question to you, uh, You are a woman in sports. And how did you find your way through this gauntlet filled with men? Um, how did you rise to this? And then you talked about, I got brothers, by the way, what are your brother's names? Kelly Flatow: Brian, Kevin, and Brendan. DC: Okay. So shout out to the brothers, the brethren of Kelly Flatow all right. So you got brothers. So you didn't grow up thinking, Hey, I'm a girl. So I don't do what my brothers do. We're all Flatows so we all do stuff. And then you mentioned going to a soccer camp with all boys. And your cousin's there, but she gets stung by a bee. So now you're there by yourself. And you're just making it happen. You're just making it happen. So that's the first thing I was like, Oh, wow. She was unaware that there was a difference. Therefore, there was no difference. That's number one. Number two. We then talked about the question of, um, when things are hard, pressure cooker situations, and I mentioned Ben Horowitz's book, The Hard Thing About Hard Things, and then that's when you went into the story behind our pressure cooker, pressure cooker pitch, and we won, fortunately we won, in large part because of you, also Seth and some other folks, And then that's when you offered the three things that Larry has mentioned, relationships, resilience, and nimble. Like, okay, got it guys. So there are these three things, but over and over again, through almost all of your answers, the word relationship came up, came up over and over again. And then the third thing is, um, when we ask you about your favorite brand, Kelly, you, you told us about Santa Claus and gave us a history lesson of Santa Claus. And so the story that most of us know about Santa Claus is what you started with, but then you, you retold the story with far more depth and dimension, having our brand nerds, including me and Larry going, Oh, wow, damn, there's a lot more there than I knew about. So I'm looking, I'm thinking about all of these answers and just what I know about you. And then I'm thinking about where you work, you're at the NBA, you're not at the NFL, and at the NFL, the players serve the league. Yeah. Okay. At the NBA, the league serves the players very different. Yeah, very different approach and you mentioned the Commissioner Adam silver and his vision. I'm also going to bring up. My boy, uh, Mark Tatum, uh, who, you know, is the deputy commissioner. He's in there too, so shout Mark one time. So let me bring this home, uh, Kelly and Larry. You like three points, three point plays, three points. I'm gonna give you what I believe is your gift to all of us in the places you work and in life. And I'm gonna give it to you in three points. Kelly Flatow I believe you are a servant of relationships, results, because every time you do something, there are results and retelling, retelling. There may be a story out there, but people may not understand what's behind the story. When you retell the story, you open up a world to us that we did not know exist. So this is what I believe is your gift. A servant of, and let me say, undaunted, undaunted. This is where coming from your brother's, undaunted servant of relationships, results, and retelling. Wow. Kelly Flatow: That, you have just given me a gift, DC. Incredible. Thank you. As only you can, and as I know you to be. DC: You're welcome, Kelly. You're very welcome. Larry? LT: Well, it's deep and heartfelt, Kelly. Um, and, uh, that's the wonderful thing of, we, we love about our podcast that we can express those things, uh, in a real genuine way. Um, so Kelly, before we sign off anything, any thoughts you want to posit from this wonderful experience we've had, this is experiential now, that you've, uh, you've learned or want to want to share with the brand nerds before we wrap up. Kelly Flatow: I just want to say thank you, y'all have made my day, and um, I've really enjoyed this, and I hope you'll have me back someday. LT: We will for sure do that, Kelly. We have separate What's Poppin, uh, shows where we just do What's Poppin, and there's going to be stuff where we gotta have Kelly's input on, D, right? DC: Absolutely, 100. Kelly Flatow: Yes. Oh, and as I said, the W Playoffs just started, so. Don't miss out. Don't miss out. Don't miss out. LT: That's, that's right. Check your, uh, check your local, check your national listings. They used to say check your local listings, right? I, I, I dated myself, but check your listing. It's available on, uh, on all the, uh, on all the outlets that the WNBA is on. All right. So, um, before we go to the final close, I just want to say, uh, rest in peace to a wonderful cousin of mine, Howard Kleinberg, who was editor of the Miami News and sports editor for many years. And so I just want to shout out Howard and his family for that. Um, I just got this news this morning. So brand nerds, thanks for listening to brands. DC: Um, Sorry, brother. You just shared this with me before the podcast. Uh, let's just have a brief moment of silence out of respect for your loss. LT: Thank you for that, D. So Brand Nerds. Thanks for listening to the Brands, Beats, and Bytes, the executive producers are Jeff Shirley, Darryl "DC" Cobbin, Larry Taman, and Hailey Cobbin, Jade Tate and Tom Dioro. That is he. And if you are listening to us via podcast, it would be great if you can please rate and review us. Additionally, if you do like the show, please subscribe and share. We hope you enjoyed this podcast and we look forward to next time where we will have more insightful and enlightening talk about marketing.