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America’s double theater war on narcoterrorism · Cultural Wars | America Out Loud News

• 0:04
  Good day.
• 0:05
  Welcome to the Midday Report on the America Out Loud News Talk Radio Network to counter momentum of spin.
• 0:10
  I am your host, Dr.
• 0:12
  Franco Musio.
• 0:13
  To our friends listening in the United States and around the world.
• 0:18
  Well, as I mentioned now each week, there's no lack of hard news items to keep our adrenaline going, especially over the last several weeks.
• 0:25
  But our aim is to dissect out the nuances and foundations of these events and others, uh, which continue, uh, continue, continue, continue, and they will, um, and with which we we come into contact with daily.
• 0:41
  Uh today's show, which is really a piggyback onto the last week's show.
• 0:46
  I'm entitling America's Double Theater War on Narcoterrorism from Iran to the Home Front.
• 0:53
  I'm privileged, as always, to introduce a world's expert on this topic.
• 0:58
  This is our fifth show together.
• 1:01
  And it seems like, wow, uh it's like wine, you know, they say this like as wine ages, it gets better.
• 1:10
  This gets better.
• 1:11
  So director Baum, Richard Baum has served at the White House Office of National Drug Control Policy or ON DCP for two decades, in a variety of positions.
• 1:23
  Uh five through five presidential administrations.
• 1:26
  He was acting director of ONDCP or Drug CR from March 2017 to February 2018 during President Trump's first administration.
• 1:37
  He was principal advisor to the president on drug policy and worked directly with cabinet secretaries, and he also served during much of his tenure as acting director, concurrently as executive director of the president's commission on combating drug addiction and opioid crises.
• 1:56
  He has both undergraduate and graduate degrees from Georgetown University as well as a master's in public administration from the University of Colorado, and he's an adjunct professor of public policy at Georgetown University's McCork Graduate School.
• 2:12
  So he has this uh a new book, which I was just telling him before is absolutely uh and I'm not you know blowing smoke up anybody's behind.
• 2:22
  This this is absolutely wonderful because it it correlates the policy aspect and the real reality, the the boots on the ground type uh um vantage point of of tackling this problem.
• 2:36
  So it is titled Inside America's Opioid Crisis, 12 Hard Lessons for Today's Drug War.
• 2:43
  And I was just mentioning to him, uh this needs to be translated in uh in Spanish and French, and I didn't say the French, but all languages.
• 2:51
  It can be purchased at Amazon.com at the publisher site, uh, Bloomsbury, and major retail uh uh bookstores.
• 2:59
  So when it goes to major retail bookstores, you you know if you've you've made it.
• 3:03
  So Director Baum, a rewelcome to you.
• 3:09
  Well, great to be with you again, uh Dr.
• 3:11
  Museo, and uh thanks so much for uh for having me and for uh allowing us to have these important discussions about our country's fight against drugs, which uh you know impacts so many families uh across the country.
• 3:23
  Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
• 3:25
  So I I'm gonna divide this into three segments, but what we'll see, and and there'll be segues going in.
• 3:30
  The first one is what's going on right this moment.
• 3:33
  Uh there's more and more that's learned about Iran now.
• 3:36
  We're destroying uh or have already the infrastructure, but along with that, the narco-terrorism infrastructure.
• 3:42
  And and then I I want to focus on chapter nine, because there is so much, just in one chapter.
• 3:50
  I believe you have 11 chapters, but uh this should be required reading for all human beings on this earth.
• 3:56
  I know I'm I'm exaggerating, but it really should be, because I I've learned so much from this.
• 4:01
  It's just absolutely fascinating.
• 4:03
  So, Director Baum, I'm gonna uh start with something.
• 4:08
  I'm gonna read to you and to the audience a paragraph.
• 4:13
  And uh this is to set the stage.
• 4:15
  And this is written by the Global Initiative Against Transnational Organized Crime.
• 4:21
  This is before the American Israeli attack on Iran.
• 4:24
  It was only a couple days before.
• 4:27
  And it feeds into this whole topic in and of itself feeds into what we're going to talk about in terms of your book.
• 4:35
  But but just allow indulge me in reading some of this.
• 4:39
  So I'm gonna read this quote and the parallels with also with the American the Latin American narcoterrorism networks.
• 4:45
  They're amazing.
• 4:46
  So quote, the parallel uh I'm sorry, uh this system is as sophisticated as it is pernicious.
• 4:55
  Over the years, Tehran has built a sanctions evading oil trade uh based on ship-to-ship transfers, manipulated identification systems, reflagging and falsified ship documentation, working through criminal maritime brokers in the Gulf, Southeast Asia, and China.
• 5:14
  It is also deeply involved in drug economies.
• 5:18
  And we talked about that last show.
• 5:20
  Its weapon smuggling operations are overseen by the CUDs force, Unit 190, a hybrid intelligence and criminal system.
• 5:27
  And it goes on.
• 5:28
  These flows are sustained by illicit finance and laundering networks, including Hawala systems, trade-based money laundering and cryptocurrency through Gulf intermediaries.
• 5:38
  Well, I would say probably not anymore because Iran, um, you know, you know what they're doing, invading their Gulf partners here.
• 5:46
  Uh, not a funny thing.
• 5:48
  Together, these function as a parallel treasury.
• 5:51
  Banks, gold traders, and foreign exchange houses have also served as key enablers.
• 5:57
  Um domestically, illicit markets have become part of the fabric of Iranian life.
• 6:02
  Now, this next sentence blows me away, but it's so good.
• 6:05
  A rupture within inner circles, perhaps in the form of an IRGC dominated coup, may lead to cartelization, cartelization of the state.
• 6:17
  I've never heard of that noun, but very, very uh, you know, uh timely here, uh, where various factions fight to dominate smuggling, foreign exchange transfers, uh, arbitrage, and procurement.
• 6:30
  In this scenario, key asset specs or assets, sorry, will be contested, such as ports, border crossings, airports, fuel flows, access to currency, and the protection rackets controlling commerce, and I will add, of course, the smuggling and the narco-terrorism.
• 6:47
  So, that's a whole lot.
• 6:48
  But what say you, Director Baum, just to that paragraph?
• 6:54
  Uh Dr.
• 6:55
  Museo, uh, it's important that you raise this because although this is such a threatening and dangerous regime, uh, and uh uh, of course, we we really are hoping uh for better days ahead uh in terms of Iran's uh self-government uh uh to have uh leadership, a country that doesn't uh threaten all its neighbors and uh the safety of people.
• 7:19
  However, as one puts pressure on the on the country's economy, as we've done through sanctions, which I support because of the larger gold, and now the added pressure from the attacks uh uh from the US, the US and Israel, there is going to be even more interest in the underground economy as people scramble to generate funds uh for various purposes.
• 7:47
  There's a real risk here, and I'm not suggesting that this is like the top war goal, but it should be on the radar of U.S.
• 7:55
  and Israel forces to identify and target these black market operators, not only because of the uh the risk from the uh narcotics economy, but because it's similar networks that are moving weapons, guns, operatives, and other things, money around.
• 8:13
  And so I think there's a legitimate war goal to really focus and target on this underground economy uh which threatens the region.
• 8:22
  So you you had mentioned um that Iran had threatened its Gulf neighbors.
• 8:26
  Not only are they threatened, of course, they're attacking.
• 8:28
  I I think they're just going nuts.
• 8:30
  I I really do, with no coordinate coordination whatsoever.
• 8:34
  I don't think there is.
• 8:35
  I think the whoever the Ayatollah is, I mean, it's kind of hilarious.
• 8:39
  They were showing pictures of him uh at his inauguration, and these pictures they were kind of uh walking along with these, it was just just really, really ridiculous in the state-run media.
• 8:50
  The state-run media is something to just behold.
• 8:54
  I I it it's even worse than Russia, I think.
• 8:58
  But this is what we did in the last few weeks, and we're continuing to do this.
• 9:04
  Uh, we have complete infrastructure destruction.
• 9:06
  You have U.S.
• 9:07
  and Israeli attacks, of course, ongoing.
• 9:10
  You have Carg Island uh oil terminal, we heard about a few days ago, which is responsible for about 90 plus percent of Iran's crude exports.
• 9:19
  And then you have South Pars gas field, uh, where liquefied uh natural gas is exported.
• 9:26
  You have their oil experts plummeting to less than 10% of pre-war levels.
• 9:32
  You have civilian and military tolls that over four, well, 5,000, maybe I think 6,000 targets, but 4,000 buildings, civilian buildings were damaged just in the first week of the strikes, and hits to their air defense, navy, missile, missile arsenal, air force, um, their economic isolation.
• 9:52
  So the legitimate economy, if you want, you know, if you will, legitimate, illegitimate is about 50% actually of their GDP, but legit.
• 10:00
  Is um there has been what I'm reading between a 46 to 62 um uh percent rate of inflation, which is untenable and like food inflation is over up to 150%.
• 10:17
  Now, how are you gonna pay for that?
• 10:21
  How are these poor individuals going to pay for something like that with the inflation going up like that, other than uh dealing with their shadow economy, as you were mentioning?
• 10:33
  It's very difficult.
• 10:35
  And uh it's uh uh if in normal times, uh maybe there'd be an effort to provide um food aid and other assistance, but with an act of war like this, and all the neighbors who could fund and support that uh being attacked by Iran, uh, I think that people are on their own and they're scrambling.
• 10:55
  You know, you uh you definitely uh can feel bad for the mom or dad who are trying to feed their kids and keep them safe.
• 11:02
  Um and it's uh it's it's very uh very very tough times.
• 11:06
  People do desperate things.
• 11:08
  Uh uh obviously we're looking at the organizers and the leaders of these criminal groups, not so much the foot soul uh soldiers, right?
• 11:16
  So the people that handle the money, the people that have the contacts outside the country, uh the logistics coordinators, the people who uh control transportation, uh, etc.
• 11:26
  But those people um uh really are gonna be empowered uh for the illegal economy and uh to concern.
• 11:34
  Yeah.
• 11:34
  I now something interesting that came through my my head here.
• 11:39
  Um so their shadow, their shadow economy, which we touched on.
• 11:43
  They're illicit economy, which is a whole, whole, whole huge underground ocean, and as I mentioned, uh up to 50% of their GDP, which was what was going on before before the attack.
• 11:55
  Even that's being greatly impeded.
• 11:58
  Think about it.
• 11:59
  So they have a kind of they call it a ghost fleet of oil uh smuggling.
• 12:04
  That they use the start fleet of these old boats and vessels to sell oil secretly, uh to like China and India and all of this bypasses U.S.
• 12:14
  sanctions.
• 12:14
  By the way, most of this underground, the banking networks, it's complex, it's clandestine, uh, and and it my goodness, it you uses um that utilizes exchange houses and kind of front companies, again, laundry, uh, to move milli billions, billions of dollars.
• 12:33
  And that enables illicit trade, and and as I said, and a lot of this is managed by the Islamic uh revolutionary guard corps.
• 12:42
  So it's kind of like a cartel in and of itself.
• 12:45
  They have cartel-esque um qualities, which uh, you know, that that first that first paragraph I was reading, cartelization of the state.
• 12:56
  So all of that is underground, but it it's extremely uh intricate.
• 13:00
  The the black market, the smuggling, the informal financial systems, but the infrastructure of those are also being decimated.
• 13:11
  I I what do you think about that?
• 13:14
  I I I think so our our primary military focus is it's on, of course, the nuclear facilities and the missile sites.
• 13:21
  Um, but the strikes have directly and I think indirectly impacted uh Iran's narco-terrorism networks as much as the legitimate economy.
• 13:34
  So again, the illicit economy is being struck.
• 13:39
  Yes, uh, you know, Dr.
• 13:40
  Museo, I I I think um if we could put our mind forward, of course, eventually uh when the hostilities ebb uh and there's a resolution to this uh sort of the hot war, there'll be negotiations and conversations, either direct or indirect.
• 14:00
  And in those conversations, of course, we understand the top priority is uh is stopping the uh you know the the violence uh and attacks by Iran on it and its proxies on the region on Israel on U.S.
• 14:15
  interests.
• 14:16
  But addition to that, on that sort of list for Secretary Rubio or whoever's doing the negotiation, should be focused on this illicit economy and having the Iranian authorities uh not allow uh the this black market economy selling drugs and weapons and moving money.
• 14:37
  Um if they uh hopefully if we could reach some kind of accommodation uh and uh that includes uh depending on the concessions by Iran, some reduction in sanctions in turn, uh Iran should commit to shutting down that that that underground economy that's harming their own people and the region.
• 15:00
  Uh and uh I think it should be uh thought of as a secondary war aim, yeah, as uh and when we get to hopefully soon, the next stage of this crisis, right?
• 15:10
  Because at some point there'll be negotiations.
• 15:13
  Yeah.
• 15:13
  Well, uh uh, you know, uh so in the past and all the other quote unquote feigned negotiations, you can't trust these people.
• 15:21
  And uh I I just pray that it's a democracy that's being will be voted in and not no vestiges of the prior regime, meaning a theocracy.
• 15:33
  Because if you're dealing with the theocracy, if there's a new theocracy, um I I don't think there will be, because we're gonna be at square one in terms of uh even trusting a word that they say, uh I uh at least in my in my opinion.
• 15:48
  So uh and Trump knows this, the administration knows this, the Israelis clearly know this.
• 15:53
  So um you were saying narco-terrorism isn't the primary objective, uh of course, of epic fury, Operation Epic Fury, but it's degraded.
• 16:02
  I mean, it's even it's so you need buildings, you need infrastructure, you you need a house, you need a building, you need this to to even conduct illicit uh trade.
• 16:12
  But uh unless they do it outside on the streets, it's like the uh you know the illicit drugs, but but these are intricate activities, but the buildings are blown up, or a lot of them are, and the IRGC and the Supreme Leader, whoever the Supreme Leader is now, I I I we've not seen the sun anywhere.
• 16:32
  Um so uh it's a good thing, it's a good thing, but my sense is that whoever we speak to in the future uh is is gonna have to be a completely new blank slate, I think.
• 16:46
  I think.
• 16:47
  Well, I it it's hard to project, but I just certainly hope we move to something that's much better in terms of international relations and for the Iranian people.
• 16:57
  But just I'd say on the issue of the black market, uh I you know, I want to be careful about comparing Venezuela to Iran.
• 17:04
  But in Venezuela example, right, the government, Maduro was directly involved in drug trafficking, right?
• 17:11
  And other illegal activities.
• 17:13
  Um and they're anti-drug people, they're people at the ports, the people charged with investigating narcotics were really facilitating narcotics.
• 17:22
  Yes.
• 17:22
  So hopefully in Venezuela, that's changing.
• 17:26
  Well, in Iran, don't expect uh, you know, don't expect perfection.
• 17:32
  But uh let's, you know, let's see if we can step them down, right?
• 17:37
  Let's get the government and the military out of drug trafficking and move to you know from where we were to a better place.
• 17:44
  Yes, yes, and that should be uh a goal as we uh as we uh when we hopefully get into negotiations and Iran moves to some type of better government.
• 17:54
  Yes, Director Bond, hold that thought.
• 17:56
  We're gonna have to stop for a commercial break.
• 17:58
  And on the flip side, we're gonna go and do a deep dive into your book.
• 18:03
  So hold tight.
• 18:04
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• 20:35
  And we are back with Dr.
• 20:37
  Baum.
• 20:38
  Director Baum, I'm gonna um I'm gonna indulge me here on your chapter nine, uh, titled Defense in Depth.
• 20:46
  And it the subtitle here, Smart Border Security and International Supply Control for Today's Synthetic Drug Era.
• 20:54
  And what I'm gonna do is is like in baseball, this is gonna be softball, because I have no desire to uh to introduce any any uh hard, hard questions.
• 21:09
  I I'm gonna lobball some of your comments here and have you expound upon them.
• 21:16
  Because I uh it really is here very delicate network, network of thought processes is really, really good.
• 21:24
  So, number one, and and I took the liberty of chopping this up into little kind of bite size or paragraph size uh pearls, if you will, pearls, uh at least for me.
• 21:37
  So hopefully for our audience too.
• 21:39
  So, number one, since 1990, this is the introduction of the chapter.
• 21:42
  U.S.
• 21:43
  authorities have found over 220 tunnels under the Southwest border.
• 21:47
  Many of these are rudimentary, but around 15 sophisticated tunnels like the one I saw have been discovered.
• 21:54
  These tunnels pose a serious threat to U.S.
• 21:56
  national security because even though they were designed to move narcotics, once built, they can also transport weapons of mass destruction.
• 22:05
  I gather chemical weapons and such, all kinds of things.
• 22:08
  Terrorists and criminal operatives into the United States.
• 22:11
  The tunnel rats are not going out of business anytime soon, which are the CBP patrol agents who are uh, I guess, challenged with or tasked with finding these tunnels.
• 22:23
  Um I climbed out of the hole and headed to the rest of my Southwest border tour, worrying about how many drug tunnels were operating that very moment somewhere else along the border.
• 22:34
  So uh so that that's pretty we've known about these for a while.
• 22:39
  But what say you about still existing tunnels?
• 22:45
  Well, it's a threat.
• 22:47
  And uh I I think um the audience understands I'm not suggesting these are terrorist tunnels, but nor I suggesting that the trafficking, the trap the cartels or the traffickers that build them and control them, wouldn't be potentially willing to accept a large payment of cash or weapons uh uh if they're in need from a um from a terrorist or someone who poses another threat in the U.S.
• 23:15
  In generally, uh general, like that's bad for business, right?
• 23:19
  So that's not what they would want to do.
• 23:21
  But um, I just wouldn't want to like count on their uh their their goodwill uh uh in this case.
• 23:28
  And listen, it's a scary thing.
• 23:31
  We don't know what we don't know, right?
• 23:34
  There's an effort by CBP and others to find these tunnels.
• 23:40
  Uh and um every now and then we find another one, right?
• 23:44
  Uh and um so it's hard to say, except that um it's just a reminder that the traffickers are resourceful, and it is not an easy problem to solve.
• 23:57
  Uh and of course, it's great, it's great that uh under uh uh President Trump's second term here, there's been this major uh improvement in the border situation in terms of illegal immigration.
• 24:10
  But that doesn't necessarily in and of itself stop the drug trafficking because almost all the drugs move through the actual checkpoints, right?
• 24:21
  In vehicles, on persons, or uh in cargo containers on trains, sure, uh, and then sometimes the under or over the border.
• 24:30
  So uh I think that it's what it's great that people feel good and we should be proud and pleased that in terms of illegal immigration, the border is largely closed, but it's not the same for drugs.
• 24:43
  Uh in spite of some very very good efforts being made.
• 24:47
  Uh it's still a huge challenge, and we need to think about the strategies that help us not just catch one operative here or there, or one seizure here or there, but allow us to learn about the drug cartels so we can take down the whole operation.
• 25:05
  So that ought to be the goal.
• 25:07
  Yes.
• 25:08
  Well, that that goes into uh here.
• 25:10
  I I put a hard lesson.
• 25:11
  This is my second, your second pearl.
• 25:14
  Um, quote, one side wants to legalize drug production or just stop investigating significant resources in trying to accomplish what they describe as mission impossible.
• 25:24
  The other side, and I gather you're very strongly on the other side, argues that the key to addressing America's drug problem is to focus on the international production and trafficking of the drugs that are killing so many of our citizens, and to quote, seal the border.
• 25:39
  The debate over the supply side among partisans on both sides has clouded the challenging realities of restricting the supply.
• 25:48
  So that also feeds into what you were just saying.
• 25:52
  So here, quote, and and this is fascinating.
• 25:55
  Uh U.S.
• 25:56
  agents must carefully select which vehicles to send to secondary and literally take apart uh uh based on the um latest analysis of trafficker statistics or or tactics, sorry, as well as their own instincts and instincts that that's important.
• 26:14
  Absent a specific tip, a hit on the plate or a passport from the electronic databases used by CBP, an extremely nervous driver or a sloppy job on a hidden compartment.
• 26:26
  Most vehicles are allowed into our country.
• 26:30
  Um so this is no easy task.
• 26:36
  It's not.
• 26:37
  It's not.
• 26:38
  And you know, it's true, things aren't standing still.
• 26:41
  You know, CVP, DHS, they are getting better equipment and technology uh to search vehicles.
• 26:47
  Uh, and we need to keep um improving it so they have more tools.
• 26:52
  But ultimately, and I think uh a lot of people have been to the border.
• 26:56
  Um there can be some very long lines, right?
• 27:00
  And there are lines of uh, you know, uh CVP officers uh looking uh at uh at each car, each vehicle on each person, but also watching the line.
• 27:11
  And of course, some of these uh uh people in these cars and trucks, they're moving um critical uh uh commercial products, you know, fruits and vegetables and equipment to manufacture cars and everything else.
• 27:26
  So very legitimate items, yes.
• 27:29
  Right.
• 27:29
  So um they're they're they're not gonna it's really impossible to expect them to uh bat a thousand, right?
• 27:38
  And catch every one.
• 27:40
  Uh but what we want to do is learn about the cartels.
• 27:44
  And this is really a point of emphasis.
• 27:47
  Um it's not that uh see you know, seizures, arrests, uh every one of them is important, but not in and of itself, not for the few kilos of drugs found or the one courier or driver, often an American these days, right, who's been paid to move the drugs across the border.
• 28:05
  Yeah.
• 28:06
  What's important is the picture of the whole cartel.
• 28:09
  And so we really want DHS, CBP to have the manpower and support to turn each one of these seizures into a controlled delivery, into an operation to develop informants.
• 28:24
  And for that, they need the support, the resources, the partnership with the DEA and others to uh you know, to be able to do that work, that that tough uh hard work of law enforcement, uh, not just uh grab a couple uh kilos of uh fentanyl or cocaine, which is great, but in and of itself doesn't really advance us too far.
• 28:44
  We've got to learn about the big picture.
• 28:46
  So to to dovetail on that, you wrote here detecting a kilo or two of narcotics carefully hidden in a car is not easy.
• 28:54
  There is a whole industry in Mexico of skilled mechanics who create ingenious ways to disguise the contraband in hidden compartments.
• 29:02
  These cartels, the fifth largest employer in Mexico with an estimated 175,000 members, my bet is more, have a lot of people working to smuggle drugs across the border into the United States.
• 29:14
  Umpeally manufactured compartments can be anywhere in the car, buried under carpeting metal and other personal belongings or commercial cargo.
• 29:23
  Although precise estimates are hard to come by, it would be reasonable to believe that at least 1,000 metric tons of cocaine enter the United States each year.
• 29:32
  That's one million kilos.
• 29:35
  By the time this cocaine reaches Mexico's northern border, it has been broken down into small shipments, a few kilos or less.
• 29:42
  These small packages are split up among many vehicles, each with its own specially designed compartment for narcotics.
• 29:49
  The same method of operation by the traffickers is used for Mexican produced heroin fentanyl and methamphetamine.
• 29:56
  Well, that that that's fascinating.
• 29:58
  I didn't know that.
• 30:03
  Well, it is a really difficult problem.
• 30:07
  And I I think uh Dr.
• 30:09
  Musa, you framed it well, and I'm very supportive of these efforts to control this flow of drugs.
• 30:17
  I just don't think we have any choice but to do it.
• 30:20
  Uh but we need to recognize that it's very challenging.
• 30:25
  And uh, you know, I did the best I could um to give uh ballpark estimate on how much cocaine's coming into the country just based on um uh uh that's a lot of that's based on the analysis of the coca production that's based uh that's from the satellite information about the size of the cocoa crop in primarily in Colombia, which is a primary uh supplier, but also uh Peru and Bolivia, the UN uh does these um uh satellites.
• 30:53
  Uh so we're able to kind of guess uh to do some modeling and analysis with methamphetamine.
• 31:01
  I mean, it's we don't know, right?
• 31:03
  Because it's purely uh synthetic, right?
• 31:06
  Coming uh just like the chemicals from China uh to produce fentanyl, they're c coming from China uh to produce methamphetamine, and we have a huge methamphetamine problem in the country uh as well as uh cocaine uh and uh so I guess what I'm really trying to say in this chapter, it's hard, difficult, but important work, and we have to stay at it and look and focus on the big picture on these cartels on disrupting and dismantling uh their operations.
• 31:39
  Uh and so I'm just trying to uh you know lay out some ground truth about the the challenge.
• 31:44
  Well, one of the truths, and here's another one, which uh I also found fascinating, and I'll tell you an anecdote in a minute here.
• 31:51
  Um, team USA is doing the necessary follow-up work on such seizures, arresting and processing the drivers, sending the drugs out to the lab for testing and making sure every ounce of drugs uh is found in the seized vehicle and understandably feeling good about their hard days' work.
• 32:08
  Traffickers are not breaking a sweat.
• 32:11
  They can easily afford to lose 10 to 20 cars seized for every hundred they send north.
• 32:16
  Um and then you go here.
• 32:18
  Uh the loss of a couple of vehicles and some low-level operatives, perhaps impoverished Mexicans trying to feed their family, or more frequently these days, as you mentioned, um, Americans recruited for a big payday, pose no real threat to the highly lucrative business model uh the cartels.
• 32:37
  Even when they take some losses, they are still making a killing.
• 32:42
  Uh but the traffickers have technology too, as well as vast financial resources, a powerful economy incentive, and a virtually unlimited labor force to replace those captured by the United States or killed by rival cartels.
• 32:56
  As CBP's legendary senior agent in my occasional guide to Southwest border visits, the late Rick Davis put it, quote, there are as many mediums to smuggle the illegal wares as the human mind can imagine.
• 33:10
  End of quote.
• 33:12
  So that's fascinating to me.
• 33:14
  That's fascinating to me.
• 33:17
  Uh Frank, I'm really glad you mentioned uh my my late friend uh Rick Davis, because you know, government officials like me, we go to the border, we do border tours, we uh go up in a helicopter and fly over the border and look at the terrain, and we go through the checkpoints and we get briefings uh at each stage of the process just to know what what's going on.
• 33:39
  And I I just want to be very sensitive how uh in the sense of how hard this work is that these customs and border patrol agents do, and uh uh, you know, uh all through DHS on the border.
• 33:53
  It is hard work and it's important work.
• 33:56
  Um and uh these are very, very smart people, especially these senior agents like Rick Davis, who've been around uh different jobs, worked in different countries, et cetera.
• 34:06
  And so I don't want my comment about how difficult it is and how it's an ongoing threat to any way uh suggest that I don't tremendously admire and uh respect uh what these people do, men and women on that line every day in the hot sun.
• 34:26
  You know, it's so valuable.
• 34:28
  However, I also don't want to oversimplify it and say that you know we got this solved or fixed because we have uh uh a tighter border, a more serious focus on the border.
• 34:39
  It is a very difficult challenge.
• 34:42
  We need to keep working on it and recognize that um there isn't like this bumper, uh a bumper sticker solution, right, where we can stop drug trafficking from moving across the border.
• 34:54
  We've got to keep grinding at it, keep working, keep keep focusing on the most dangerous threats, uh the cartels, their leadership, their key operatives, people moving the money.
• 35:06
  Uh, and we haven't even really talked about southbound, where uh cash moves across the border back into Mexico, of course, it moves electronically as well.
• 35:15
  So uh it's a it's a it's a daunting problem, and I just try and uh you know provide some straight talk on that reality.
• 35:22
  Yeah, well, there's a lot of street talk here.
• 35:24
  I my my anecdote was this.
• 35:26
  Um I was uh at Walter Reed working at Walter Reed.
• 35:30
  I was in the military myself as a physician in the military.
• 35:33
  Um, but I had an assignment, brief assignment in El Paso, and I met uh some very, very interesting people, a lot of them civilians.
• 35:42
  And then one individual was describing a story to me, and and he ended up back at Walter Eat, actually.
• 35:48
  They transported the Waller Reed for a higher level of care.
• 35:52
  But he was describing, he he himself was a border agent.
• 35:55
  And he was telling me about a friend of his, and uh that they all lived in a kind of tight-knit community, but all of a sudden, this friend, the writing is on the wall, started uh uh having these very, very nice cars and beautiful cars, actually.
• 36:13
  And then all of a sudden he had a Lamborghini.
• 36:15
  This is an El Paso, all right.
• 36:17
  So everyone was talking.
• 36:19
  What the hell is he doing with a Lamborghini, you know, on a measly uh measly border?
• 36:24
  He said, well, the salary of a CBP, and he said uh, you know, I I had an inheritance and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
• 36:31
  My wife's family died, and all these things.
• 36:34
  Uh a lot of members died.
• 36:36
  But but then he had a Ferrari.
• 36:37
  Okay.
• 36:38
  So he he was accepting, he was accepting bribes, and they they put him in jail.
• 36:42
  So this blows my mind that Americans, there's they can be cash payments, they can be even coercion from the cartels.
• 36:50
  Uh that they know, and and what I've read is that they've done research into individual CBP border patrol agents.
• 37:00
  And they know if is certain ones have gambling debts and and their own alcohol or drug abuse problems.
• 37:07
  And so these smaller abilities they they feed into that.
• 37:11
  And then, of course, gifts.
• 37:12
  They start with small gifts such as tickets to uh events um concerts, and then more expensive gifts, and then uh and then large-scale drug smuggling involvement.
• 37:24
  And these are American citizens.
• 37:27
  Clearly, this is not the majority.
• 37:29
  Clearly, this is a very small minority.
• 37:31
  But but comment on that.
• 37:33
  That blows my mind.
• 37:37
  Yes, uh, it's true.
• 37:39
  Uh every country, including the US uh faces a corruption risk, especially as you describe uh from uh people that are carefully recruited uh um for um uh for that purpose.
• 37:54
  And uh I think the the the way um one I think to think about it is the corruption individuals or is it systemic throughout the chain of command, right?
• 38:06
  In uh in uh a part of DHS or another agency.
• 38:10
  And it really is not systemic, right?
• 38:13
  No, no, um it is uh a few people.
• 38:17
  How however individuals can be vulnerable for the reasons you describe.
• 38:23
  And also uh people have people have family ties, right, uh on both sides of the border.
• 38:29
  Good point and sometimes the traffickers can exploit those ties to um to threaten people.
• 38:35
  So it's not just the financial incentives which are important, but also um other threats uh to uh someone's family, children, uh uh spouses, parents.
• 38:46
  So um uh yeah, it is part of the challenge uh that agencies that work on the border or just in the drug area, right?
• 38:54
  Have to um have to pay attention to.
• 38:57
  So just like the underground world we were talking about in Iran, which is half of their GDP, this is an underground world which is just overwhelming.
• 39:05
  So, Director Baum, hold that thought, and we're gonna go to commercial break.
• 39:10
  And on the other side, we will continue more of this fascinating discussion.
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• 40:46
  And we are back with Director Baum.
• 40:49
  You know, is telling him off here we could go we could go on and on and on, but he's graciously agreed to come back and speak specifically about the methamphetamines and fentanyl issues because in and of themselves and and all the other synthetic opioids are quite a few now and the chemists.
• 41:06
  I I take it the pharmacists and the chemists in Mexico are all uh pharmaceutical pharmaceutical companies are all in cahoots uh with the cartels and uh as we said this is you know the lure of easy money, as that that's uh uh I want to say Jim Fry song.
• 41:24
  But okay, let me get to this.
• 41:26
  Let me get to the bare bare bottom here.
• 41:29
  So you had mentioned uh with the United States taxpayers putting the bill, the bulk of the bill for spray planes, spray planes, uh and weed killers for aerial eradication and labor costs for manual eradication.
• 41:43
  So we're getting at the root of the problem is the plants.
• 41:46
  Uh it should be just a matter of inputs and outputs, and presto, no more drug crops.
• 41:52
  Unfortunately, the reality on the ground is much more complex than it seems from a distance.
• 41:58
  And so you taught me a lot here.
• 42:01
  The biggest difficulty with eradication is that every time a field is eradicated, it creates a very unhappy coca or opium farmer.
• 42:09
  And communities were producing drug crops is the primary source of infome, farmers push back and hard against government eradication.
• 42:18
  They protest, they march, they physically block uh manual uh eradicators from entering their fields.
• 42:24
  In more extreme cases, they turn to violence.
• 42:26
  Drug crop farmers shoot at spray planes uh and mine the fields with impoverished explosive improvised explosive devices, IEDs, like the ones used in Afghanistan and Iraq.
• 42:39
  These IEDs have killed or maimed Colombian manual uh coca eradicators.
• 42:44
  Crop eradication efforts are only accomplished with a significant risk to personnel and often under difficult conditions.
• 42:52
  So yes, I I knew a little bit about that, but not uh so even the farmers could get involved here, uh even though they're in an illegitimate business and they know they are, uh, but this is their livelihood.
• 43:06
  So they're gonna combat.
• 43:09
  Uh so have you been involved in any of these crossfires.
• 43:15
  Uh well, you know, during a lot of my career, I was working uh uh very much uh on uh Plan Colombia and related efforts in the Andean Ridge, uh Colombia, Bolivia, and Peru to support their eradication and interdiction efforts and um uh and of course I I know uh uh probably uh your uh your listeners uh recall uh how the plan how Plan Columbia, the multi-administration partnership between U.S.
• 43:45
  and Colombian administrations, really focused on trying to disrupt uh the cocaine markets.
• 43:52
  Uh so yeah, uh it's was a big effort uh and uh it was successful for a while.
• 44:00
  Uh it really was, and I was very gratified.
• 44:04
  People like me who worked on anti-drug stuff, very gratified to see that the uh the eradication of interdiction with U.S.
• 44:12
  financial and technological support was indeed driving down coca production significantly, and we were seeing impact on the U.S.
• 44:24
  market on consumption in the US, on impact of cocaine uh that were rooted in this eradication of interdiction efforts.
• 44:32
  So, you know, on a on one hand, when we saw this data, it was like an Eureka moment because people, critics of the fight against drugs, uh a lot from academia were like, this will never work, things only get worse.
• 44:45
  And then we did see uh some time ago, uh a real impact in controlling the the coca uh crop coca production.
• 44:56
  Unfortunately, it was not sustained.
• 44:59
  Uh and uh and this was a period when uh President Santos, who followed President uh Alvaro Aribe as President of Colombia, uh decided to negotiate peace with uh the rebels.
• 45:12
  I I'm gonna hard stop you.
• 45:13
  I'm gonna hard stop you, Rich, because I I'm gonna uh uh let me quote you, okay.
• 45:20
  There was a time not so long ago during the administration of Colombian President Albaro Ribbia, 2002-2010, when a sustained aerial eradication campaign sharply reduced net cocoa production in Colombia.
• 45:31
  That's what you're uh talking about right now, and contributed to reduced cocaine consumption in the United States.
• 45:37
  This effort, part of a two uh decade planned Colombian initiative, which was developed in 1999, it was controlled or continued by multiple administrations in both countries, did have a significant impact, like you said, both abroad and at home.
• 45:50
  Cocaine overdoses in the United States declined in line with the reduced production.
• 45:55
  However, President Uribi's successor in Colombia, Francisco Santos, ended aerial eradication and questioned the usefulness of anti-drug efforts he had once led as defense minister under President Oribe.
• 46:08
  President Santos focused uh his focus was on achieving an important peace deal with the F uh FARC Gorilla Group, which received a large portion of its funding from taxing and controlling the drug trade, sought to end aerial eradication, which was imposing increased costs on them and their coca-growing partners.
• 46:27
  This is what you're intimating, and you've met with the presidents.
• 46:31
  I I think both.
• 46:33
  Um basically President Santos in Colombia kind of reverse course in a bad way.
• 46:40
  Or am I wrong?
• 46:43
  Well, yeah, yes, uh, thanks.
• 46:45
  Uh that's a great quote.
• 46:46
  Uh, thanks for reading it.
• 46:47
  Uh that's your that's you.
• 46:50
  That's your Yeah.
• 46:51
  Yeah, no, no, I know.
• 46:52
  I'm I'm making fun of myself a little bit there.
• 46:54
  Uh, but um look, I think we need to understand, and this is a hard lesson, that governments, uh partner countries, they make their own decisions based on their view of their own national interest.
• 47:10
  And once the FARC, the uh rebel group was willing to come to the table negotiate, uh, then uh the President of Colombia, duly elected by the people of Columbia decided it was more in the country's interest to reduce eradication and make a peace deal uh with uh with the rebels, and he dialed back uh uh anti-drug efforts and production went back to the uh earlier levels, they even surpassed them uh and uh traffic into the U.S.
• 47:43
  uh increased again.
• 47:45
  Uh so this was uh their choice.
• 47:48
  And uh on the one hand, you know, you expect uh uh democratic elected president making their decisions, but it had consequences to not just the U.S.
• 47:56
  but other countries around the world that are seeing uh this uh uh Colombian produce uh cocaine uh in their uh in their people.
• 48:05
  So so that he was dealing with internal politics, of course, of his own country, but could he not have taken the high road, the 40,000 foot view of things or 30,000 foot view of situation, saying, well, I I can internally uh deal with my own politics, but if it's for the detriment of the world, um and and in terms of of killing people, I'm not gonna do it.
• 48:31
  And the FARC uh well, you know, am I in a different world?
• 48:37
  Am I thinking too optimistically or too uh, you know, uh am I not and I'm ingenuous here?
• 48:46
  Let me answer it like this, because it is a complicated question.
• 48:50
  But I do know when talking to Colombian ministers directly after this period when they stopped their anti-drug efforts that uh they didn't believe they said, oh, look, uh cocaine consumption in the U.S.
• 49:03
  is down.
• 49:04
  So why worry?
• 49:06
  And I I explained that hey, supply and demand interact with each other.
• 49:13
  It's a dynamic relationship.
• 49:15
  So just because quote unquote demand is down, because supply is down, doesn't mean that that's gonna last forever.
• 49:23
  And I said if it it it Colombia allows so much cocaine to get produced and traffic north of the United States, people will buy it and use it, and our problem will get worse.
• 49:34
  I wasn't really able to persuade them uh that that minister, uh, but that is what happened uh over time.
• 49:41
  So I would say, although I respect the Colombian decisions to deal with uh you know uh peace deal, but I also feel like the Colombian government has a responsibility to uh reduce the coca production, cocaine production in that country.
• 49:57
  Well, yeah, and just I was saying.
• 50:00
  So they didn't care, basically.
• 50:02
  I'm getting so it is.
• 50:04
  I was they had they had their priorities changed and they discounted the consequences to uh consuming countries of um well what they were put the what the the they were gonna produce the country was gonna produce right so it's this hypocrisy I think it was a misjudgment.
• 50:22
  It was a misjudgment on their part.
• 50:24
  Not only a misjudgment.
• 50:26
  Uh they uh I don't want to say it on I can't say it on the air, but I'm gonna use a bad word.
• 50:31
  They they something up, they really did.
• 50:34
  Um so then let me ask you this.
• 50:37
  So is this hypocritical?
• 50:39
  So uh and and was the Colombian government getting paid loads of money from the the cocaine efforts, the smuggling, and making a lot of money, and they were saying I I gather, well, you know, we're in peace with the FARC now, uh, which is our has been our own internal problem.
• 50:59
  I we don't care.
• 51:00
  We're we're making a hell of a lot of money.
• 51:03
  Is this a good idea?
• 51:05
  I I don't believe so.
• 51:06
  Uh I don't believe the top levels of the government in Colombia were receiving money from drug cartels.
• 51:12
  Uh yes, there is cartel money in Colombian politics, but I I believe that they thought the priority was a peace deal, which was historic.
• 51:22
  Um, and they uh let themselves believe uh incorrectly that uh their increased supply would not impact other countries like the United States.
• 51:33
  So uh I I think of it as a very serious uh misjudgment of facts, and I hope they uh return at some point to um their responsibilities to try and uh better manage coca production, cocaine production within Colombia.
• 51:47
  So the lesser of two evils.
• 51:49
  In other words, they they probably knew it would be a problem, but but the the bigger problem was uh the FARC problem and just maintaining maintaining uh political uh equilibrium within the country.
• 52:02
  But but Rich, is this why do you think they weren't invited a week ago to the Shield of America Summit and signed the Dural Charter uh a week ago, a little bit more than a week ago, President Petro, because you've dealt with all these presidents, um, but but I was a little surprised they were not invited.
• 52:20
  Uh I I gather they're part of the 17 nation um uh what did they call it?
• 52:26
  There's two different that there's the America's Counter-Cartel Coalition, and those are 17 nations, and I gather that Columbia's part of that.
• 52:34
  But but they're not even that.
• 52:37
  Not even that.
• 52:41
  President Petro uh has not been supportive of significant counter-narcotics efforts, uh, and that's been a disappointment.
• 52:49
  However, you know, Colombia has a sophisticated military and law enforcement uh uh uh team uh and capacity.
• 52:59
  So I don't want to suggest they're doing nothing because their efforts uh are still meaningful, but they're not scaled to the threat, and that needs to change.
• 53:09
  So the Durrell Charter, which is uh the most recent, those were 12 nations, and obviously Colombia was not part of that.
• 53:17
  But would you argue that you need them?
• 53:20
  Not only Colombia wasn't part of it, Mexico, Mexico is not part of the Durrell Charter, Brazil, uh, and and of course Colombia.
• 53:27
  So the collectively, these governments um they're the majority of the regional Latin American GDP, and um so and their primary production zones are in in the uh their countries.
• 53:42
  So and they also have significant trade corridors, but they're not part of the Durrell Charter.
• 53:47
  So let me ask you the rationale of that.
• 53:50
  I I know that politically they're not the stance of conservatism, but don't you think that Trump would have just as he did with the other the initial charter or the um the America Counter-Cartel Coalition, doesn't he in the United States need these countries?
• 54:10
  100% he needs them.
• 54:12
  But you know, uh there's lots of ways to do uh partnership and diplomacy.
• 54:18
  There's bilateral, there's regional, there's multilateral.
• 54:21
  Uh uh sometimes it's trilateral, uh uh, or within a certain uh a narrow region with a few countries, and uh it looks like we're gonna have to work out our um anti-drug efforts bilaterally with Colombia.
• 54:35
  They're about to have elections, and so it'll be a new government in Colombia, and I would really uh hope that both the government of Colombia and the government of the U.S.
• 54:44
  would make a closer partnership on counter-drug efforts uh a very top priority uh uh over the next year.
• 54:52
  And then potentially invited to to become an amended uh member of the Durrell Charter, I would think.
• 54:59
  Um so uh I want to hit on something also blew my mind here.
• 55:04
  So uh Director Baum has graciously agreed to come back on and discuss the methamphetamine and the fentanyl issues because they're they're different, but they're very, very compelling.
• 55:17
  But uh you were talking about uh the uh fentanyl here and oh no, I'm sorry, the methamphetamines, but not so much that, but let me let me let me quote this paragraph.
• 55:28
  You wrote the scope of Mexican drug traffickers' operations within the United States is vast, and they are adept at expanding distribution to reach new users.
• 55:37
  Their tactics, not just for methamphetamines, but for other drugs as well, include providing free samples, targeting areas near drug treatment centers, and embedding operatives inside communities to build an informal friends and family network to reach more uh potential drug consumers.
• 55:58
  Director Baum, thank you so much.
• 56:00
  Thank you.
• 56:01
  We're gonna uh as we said, we're gonna talk about on a different show, methamphetamines and fentanyl, which is stories in and of themselves.
• 56:09
  So again, thank you, Director Baum.
• 56:13
  My pleasure.
• 56:14
  Great to be with you and your audience again.
• 56:16
  Absolutely.
• 56:16
  So thank you so much, everyone, for listening.
• 56:18
  I enthusiastically look forward to being with you weekly on the countermomentum of spin, uh, where we will endeavor to address and work towards solving the problems of the world.
• 56:29
  And my goodness, there's not a lack of those.
• 56:32
  Um please note that this show and all the shows on America Out Loud Talk Radio, go to your favorite podcast networks within 24 hours.
• 56:39
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• 56:44
  Have a great day, and God bless you, and