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AIM High: Tactical trends in 2020 & strategic plans for 2021 · Two in Twenty

• 0:02
  SPEAKER_02: Hello and welcome to another episode of Aim High.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_02: My name is Twink Field.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_02: I'm the founder of Owet Marble and the host of these podcasts, which is dedicated to marketers in investment management.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_02: We've taken the opportunity at this time of year, right the very end of December 2020, to do a bit of a wash-up of the year and reflect on the sort of trends that we've seen and how marketers have pivoted through a very challenging year.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_02: As well as just look ahead to 2021, the plans that marketers are putting in place.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_02: And to do this, I'm talking to the brilliant Vincent Hoopelot, who is the COO and chief strategist at Fundamental Media, who works with clients on their on their marketing and their and their media plans.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_02: So he felt like a great person to add a voice to this conversation.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_02: So over to him.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_02: So thank you so much, Vincent, for joining me today to sort of reflect on 2020 as well as look ahead to 2021.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_02: Perhaps just to start us off, you could introduce yourself and your background and then we can get into it.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: No worries.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for giving me the opportunity.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_00: It's always fun to talk about the stuff that I love to talk about.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, so basically my name is Vincent Hooplot.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_00: In the Netherlands, we say Hopelot because I'm Dutch.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_00: That's my background.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_00: I'm currently COO and chief strategist at Fundamental Media Limited, which is an advertising media and marketing agency.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_00: So basically, we focus on helping asset managers and business schools with their marketing.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I've spent personally, I've spent the majority of my working life working for asset managers and other financial firms like banks and insurance companies.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_00: So basically in various roles, like uh head of client relations, uh CMO, head of global marketing, etc.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_00: And um, apart from asset management, because I'm really fond of marketing and strategy, um, I actually kind of became a certified marketeer uh 10 years ago, which means that I need to be versatile.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_00: I need to kind of also spend time on other verticals.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_00: So I do a lot in retail and other verticals as well, but I will not talk too much about that uh today.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um the the key thing for me is basically that I'm trying to kind of put my my knowledge and my expertise to work, um, in which I I specifically join forces with fundamental media to kind of bring what we call targeted, integrated, and measurable marketing to uh fund managers.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_00: We believe that by kind of really using data and digital and deep understanding of markets, that we can actually help them uh to kind of um yeah, actually stand apart and to get to get more um yeah, to get more results out of the activities that they that they have.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and that's basically focused the focus that we uh that I have as a person, and uh that's the passion that I have.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_00: I'm married and have uh I have uh two kids and and and and uh my wife, Natasha, and that's that's me.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_02: Lovely, thank you for that.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_02: So Vincent, it's interesting.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I guess the role of sort of trusted advisor that you and your role as well as us here at White Marble have with our clients.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_02: Um, how do you think that the pandemic has sort of informed that relationship?
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_02: Or, you know, certainly we find it's kind of intensified the the status and the sort of strategic role that we have with our clients.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_02: Is that something that you've also experienced?
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_00: Uh definitely, definitely.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_00: So I think I think that for companies like uh ours, it is really uh kind of key to see this type of crisis through uh shoulder to shoulder, if you will, with the client.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_00: And that's basically what we've seen, what we've seen happening.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_00: So in the past 12 months, what we've seen is that the relationship between us and our clients has become uh even closer than it was before.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and you know, actually it started with early January when we saw that the first signals of uh the pandemic, uh, because we have offices also in uh Hong Kong.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_00: We kind of we we already had to deal with some of the fallout of the um of the early signs of the crisis uh in January.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_00: And we actually rushed together to kind of actually think about what we had to prepare for.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_00: And to be honest, it was not easy.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um as at that time we were hoping that the the yeah that that this there wouldn't be no pandemic.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_00: That's basically what we were hoping for, I think, as everyone.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and we were looking at, we were anticipating that there could be something that would was uh coming our way, and we we knew that if the uh the early signs of this this uh health crisis, if it would really kind of spiral out of control, we would we would need to be prepared for it.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_00: So so we started really to talk to our clients about it as well, and we started to come up with strategic and tactical plans uh how to deal with it.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_00: And uh I'm happy looking back, I'm really happy that we did that because by the time that it reached Europe, we were actually prepared to talk to clients and to advise our clients uh proactively about you know what they could do and how they could they could deal with it.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_00: And we made some comparisons also.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_00: We studied what happened during the great financial crisis after 2008.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and what I I don't know if you remember that, but probably you do that back then quite a few asset managers chose to stop communicating, uh, which is counterintuitive, if you ask me.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I think uh asset managers have been much better this time around.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_00: So and we've been working very closely together with them to make that point that you know it's not it, this is not the time to go silent.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_00: This is the time to really communicate with the clients, to pivot your plans, to make sure that you actually kind of reassure the audience and inform the audience and and the investors about um yeah, all the money that they have invested with you.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's that's something that we've been doing really kind of very thoroughly, uh, working closely together with the clients to make sure that they could pivot their plans and that they would they would be uh in market, that they internally they could make the case to their uh senior management, uh, explaining that they should not cut down on activity, but they should increase uh activity and make it relevant for what people are facing at this uh at that point in time.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_02: So when it comes to the actual campaigns and the media buying that you do for clients, and how that must have really significantly changed over this period, is it has it?
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, so basically it has.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_00: It has.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_00: So if we look at what happened actually, is that um I think maybe I should kind of start with the the the fact that when it became clear that this crisis was really becoming, it was around March, April time when we saw that it was kind of really spiraling out of control.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you can imagine that there were a lot of asset managers who had already planned activities for um yeah, everything up to um May, June of the year.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_00: So basically, they they could not just continue what they were doing.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_00: So we the first signals that we got were clients reaching out to us, uh asking advice whether they should continue their out-of-home activities in Hong Kong, for instance, where there was a lot of things happening.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_00: So we had to replan a lot of activities.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, we had to actually pull back campaigns, negotiate with uh with publishers and with um suppliers to get actually the best uh deal, if you will, for for our clients, because we wanted to actually replan the activity uh so the client would not lose all the um all their uh their budget, but would have the opportunity to actually use that budget at a later stage and probably redirect some of it uh to other channels.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_00: And you can imagine, I think that's something that everybody will uh will recognize is that a lot of activity went to digital.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_00: So one of the things that we really saw is that um because people are consuming more news, um, because that's one of the things that we had to actually kind of explain to quite a few um of our contacts that in in when something like a pandemic hits um the news, a lot of people kind of increase the time that they spend on all these news wires trying to understand what's going on.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and that can be seen as an opportunity.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_00: So we've seen um yes, tell a growth of readership of a lot of online titles.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_00: We've seen some of the um print titles kind of really redirecting a lot of the activity quickly towards uh um towards the online activities, and we've definitely seen that publishers have really stepped up um trying to pivot and to kind of generate new content specifically for the online channels, and that's where we also kind of advise our clients to um to leverage that and to redirect some of the activities from um away from the more traditional media uh towards the uh more to more digital media.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um we've also seen, and that's I think one of the practical trends that we've seen as well, is that a lot of the um uh activity um kind of that we had in which were kind of focused on events and roadshows, a lot of face-to-face activity that salespeople would go to.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um they all of them have you know, they actually at some point when lockdowns started to kind of uh come in effect, they were all um paused and then later they were actually just completely um uh stopped anyway.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of them went online.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_00: So again, there we saw um kind of the some managers were quicker than others, asset managers were quicker than others to pivot and to kind of really jump on that bandwagon and make sure that they could take their uh engagement uh with the salespeople and the portfolio managers from the real-life face-to-face environment into an online environment, and some of them did it, I think, particularly well.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_00: So we we've seen some of the roadshows, seminars, and industry events, and event sponsorships going online in a way that you would almost argue that it is uh it was probably even more effective than the face-to-face activity.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_00: We also did some research on that, by the way.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_00: We we just recently did some research where we could see that there's a lot of positivity, if you will, among the uh both the asset owners and the asset managers themselves uh about the kind of the events going on online.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_00: So they feel that a lot of the commuting time that they used to have back then, that it's now kind of it's replaced by um uh you know more time to do other stuff um uh to get the get the job done.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_00: And at the same time, when they are in these events, they are more focused because they have less distraction.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um, on the other hand, what we've seen is that some of them um they struggle with the fact that during these events you can actually kind of go walk up to people and have a conversation, and that's a bit more difficult.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_00: So we see some fund managers struggling with that uh definitely.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean it's interesting, isn't it?
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_02: In that environment, the need to your point earlier about the relevance as well to truly engage people in that sort of different sort of environment as well, becomes even more critical.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, maybe one thing I completely agree with that.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_00: That's one thing, and the other thing that we've also seen, which I think is interesting to share as well, is that we we do see something happening as well in terms of uh we call it almost a divide.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_00: So we we've done a research research specifically looking at what kind of marketing skill different fund managers have, um, and we've also compared that to companies like uh LinkedIn or Salesforce, trying to understand you know, is there anything that fund managers can learn from uh from other types of uh of companies that are being very successful in their um their omni-channel uh marketing?
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and then we've seen kind of what we would call a kind of a defy, there's some kind of defy starting to happen.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_00: So we we see that some fund managers they really kind of onboard people with new skills, so more digital, more social, uh social media skill, but also data driven and technology driven.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, um, and um it doesn't so my opinion is not that if it's either digital or traditional skills, I think we need both.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_00: So, one of the things that we do see is that some of the fund managers they kind of succeed in hiring more people with those digital social and data and technology tech skills, and then actually kind of making sure that they work very closely together with the more traditional marketeers, and traditional would be more communication, more branding, and so on.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I think the the ones that get that to work, those are the ones that are thriving in the current in the current environment.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_00: So, because they are managing to get the things uh kind of done in a way which is targeted, it's personalized, more purposeful, because they kind of integrate the brand in all the engagement that they have with their clients.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_00: And then with that, they can optimize the acquisition and retention strategy.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_00: And because it's online, it's measurable.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: So going back to our vision of targeted integration measurable, it's kind of really we we see some of the fund managers really kind of taking this opportunity to get that uh to work in practice.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_00: So that's one of the what that's one of the things I personally find quite uh exciting.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's the plant of the plant of those skills to to really um optimize the the approach and and the strategy.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_02: It's interesting though you you talk about um the kind of recruitment being made and the sort of those skills being brought in, um if not sort of enhanced already through the team.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_02: Are you not finding that uh asset managers marketing departments are uh struggling to recruit at the moment?
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it is it's a difficult environment to sort of find the right people.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_02: You you actually seeing marketing departments grow.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_02: We we find we find uh all working incredibly hard, all the hours that God sends, but um you know it's very difficult to sort of find the right people uh and and skills and and actually have the sort of sign-off, I think, from on high to get get those people in.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, so um yeah, so I the first thing to say is that yes, I do recognize that.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_00: Again, I do see differences uh from fund manager to fund manager.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_00: So some of them I see struggling with it a lot.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and some of them I would almost argue that um, and that's one of the things that because I've been working for asset manager for a long time, as you have as well.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I've seen asset managers from the inside, I've been on the board of asset managers, so I know which discussions happen there.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_00: And those asset managers were either there's this big discussion that I know that's always like who's in the lead.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_00: Is it the portfolio management team?
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_00: Is it the CIO and his people, or the or are the are the investors uh kind of the people who are deciding on the future of the company, or is it sales uh and distribution because they kind of have the access to the um asset owners?
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and depending on how that discussion goes, um often you would see that marketing will be kind of almost like a byproduct of uh of all decisions.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_00: The companies that have that, there I see this big struggle that you're referring to, because then there's not a lot of understanding of how marketing should be integrated with uh distribution and sales and how it should collaborate with portfolio management teams and so on.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_00: I see some companies, um, I think you know, one of the examples that I would name would be Bailey Givet.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_00: I think Bailey Gifford is a really excellent example of a company where you know it's kind of it's it's the collaboration goes through all everybody is actually kind of working on the same program, if you will.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: So if I look at um, I I like one of one nice example, I think a lot of people have heard this before, but I'm going to share it anyway.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_00: Is that at NASA, uh there was kind of there was this, I don't know if it's really happened, but it's been kind of told a lot that if you ask um the lady who is kind of cleaning the toilets at NASA what she is doing every day, she's she says uh bringing taking people to the moon.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_00: And basically, I think that's such a kind of really good way to explain how well people feel that they are part of a bigger, um, a bigger long-term commitment and goal.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I think the companies that get that right, so they make sure that the marketing people, like the lady at NASA, feel that they are part of something bigger and really kind of delivering on an integrated and and holistic uh long-term plan.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, those are the companies that I see thriving.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I think an example, there are more examples, but one example for me would be um uh Bailey Gifford.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I see a lot of other companies that are struggling where there is a lot of discussion between sales and marketing and uh portfolio management teams, and actually marketing being almost like, as I said before, a byproduct.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_00: And there I do see a lot of issues trying to because it then it becomes difficult to hire uh people who are ambitious and have the right talents and the right uh skills, because they would rather work for maybe for Salesforce for Facebook or another company.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but I do see examples of fund managers where the attraction that the brand has and the way it's being run uh on uh skilled marketeers.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and having that crisp articulation right the way through the business, like a rallying call, really, isn't it?
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely, yeah, the brand, yeah.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_02: Um it's interesting that just in terms of um kind of reflections of this year, I certainly feel that the focus on the client experience and the role that sort of marketing has in delivering that now has really put a spotlight on marketing, that it is now much more seen as a sort of strategic partner within the business to deliver such a critical element of the service that we offer.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um I I you know I find that also really very exciting now.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_02: Is that what you you see?
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_02: You know, the lights of Bailey Gifford, as you mentioned, and yeah, more broadly.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_00: No, absolutely, absolutely.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_00: It's almost becoming boring.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_00: I agree with you, but it it is true because what I see if I look at the um what has happened this year internally within fundamental media, we call it the year of the market here.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_00: And uh yeah, really, yeah, yeah, because um we strongly believe this is the year of the marketeer.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_00: Because if I would come again, I like to make comparisons um with other yeah, similar um incidents, if you will, that have have happened.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_00: So if we look at the uh global financial crisis 2008 uh and beyond, there we feel indeed that marketeers were struggling.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, let's be sure let's be kind of if if I look at the overall at how fund managers are kind of going about all of the complexity that's being thrown at them, it is a journey.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm not saying that anybody is established and and you know knows it knows everything from A to C.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_00: But what I do see is that marketeers have become more prominent and more relevant within the firms.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_00: Because if you look at what happened around the COVID crisis, what has definitely changed is that by the time that it was clear that companies needed to step up and communicate with clients, marketeers were at the helm of everything.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_00: So that's something we saw without any exception, that's what we've seen across the board.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_00: So I agree completely with you that marketeers have stepped up and they've taken their uh responsibility.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_00: They've been leading the kind of bringing the right people together, um, having the right discussions internally, trying to really bring in the perception of asset owners and clients to make sure that where I think in the past fund managers had the almost an inclination to just communicate things that were favorable for them.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_00: I think they went uh kind of the other in the other direction, trying to understand what is relevant for the client.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_00: And from there, from that perspective, actually kind of gathering the right information internally and getting it through to the clients uh quickly.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's something that I've seen that has happened consistently across the board.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why we call it we see it as the year of the marketeer, because we feel that marketers have stepped up and they have delivered and they have become more prominent and more uh respected within uh most of the firms that we uh that we work with.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, it's it is really, really exciting.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um sometimes it's sometimes you know you need the crisis to to get these things done.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um so how do you find uh or how rather are your clients responding then to this, I guess, less long-term visibility and and needing to be more fluid and and sort of uh adapt and and um plan you know with shorter planning cycles?
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so I think that's something that we've seen uh that has been happening for a longer time, to be honest.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_00: I think that it's not either or.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_00: So what we see is that uh most clients are still planning for a long uh for from for the long term, but at the same time, they are keeping resources um and um and and and also budget um available to be able to respond to the more short-cycled um uh topics, issues, and and um uh uh activities that need to be done.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_00: So basically, what what we see is that most um uh asset management marketeers they make sure that they still run the longer term, but they also actually kind of deliver on the short-term requirements of asset owners.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_00: To give an example, if I look at uh one um yeah, one asset manager which I'm not going to name, but what I do what I see them doing is that by the time that the uh first signals of the crisis were there, they kind of just shift shifted completely to um crisis communication.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_00: So talking about uh the um uh the pandemic, uh what the implications of the pandemic are, what it would mean for macroeconomic outlook, but then more specifically uh for the strategies that they were running.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_00: Uh but then as they were starting to uh kind of starting up that communication, they were again back to looking to towards the mid the mid and long term and uh making sure that the brand messages were also kind of incorporated there as well, and actually pivoting away from just crisis communication to more longer-term commitment to uh helping clients understand what the next uh um yeah, what the next choices would be.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_00: So talking a lot about portfolio allocation, portfolio construction, how to actually kind of create a portfolio which is resilient um in uh under these current circumstances, and also adding things like scenario uh planning, uh trying to understand how to deal with a different scenario.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_00: So, long story short is that I do see uh that.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Asset managers are communicating more balanced again here, and that they actually kind of they don't go either for only short-term communication or long or midterm communication, but they actually kind of create a communication program which is more um uh balanced.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_00: And the other thing is also that with all the modern technology that we have, we don't have to guess anymore what clients think of uh what we're communicating to them.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_00: So there's a lot of tracking and monitoring going on to see with which topics people engage.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, we can pivot the campaign on a daily basis.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_00: So if something doesn't resonate with a client, you can actually pivot into another topic which is more relevant to the to the client of that sub-segment uh specific audience that you're targeting at that moment in time.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_00: So we see a lot of more again flexibility and uh agility, uh, but we also have better tools actually to deal with it.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_00: I think if we if I compare now with the 2008, we have so much that we can do with all the technology and data that we have at our disposal that um yeah, marketers are just doing a better job.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_02: And and more broadly than the the sort of comms, which has absolutely been critical, as you say, can in terms of the broader kind of media mix, uh, you know, do you see a significant change then between how 2020 is closing out and the plans clients have for 2021?
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I see um I I see uh I see uh definitely um uh what I ex what we expect is a continuation of the uh focus on um really on the on the digital means.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_00: So we we feel that because 2020 has actually kind of almost forced uh asset managers across the board to kind of really embrace digital.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_00: So those that were already kind of ahead have even kind of integrated digital more into their uh overall marketing approach, and those that were lagging a bit were forced to kind of really step up.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_00: We think that that will continue in uh uh actually in 2021.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_00: So that focus on more actually more digital, which is again, as I said before, it's much more data-driven and much more also driven by um by technology that will just kind of continue.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_00: That's basically what we've what we see.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_00: If we look at the conversation that we have with clients now, most clients currently are definitely focused on um on putting together uh plans which are omni-channel.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_00: So nobody, I don't believe that everything uh in the future will only be kind of uh through means of digital communication, digital channels, even though the digital channels are growing.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I still believe, and we see that in our research as well, there are still enough asset owners who want to actually kind of get informed through uh print media.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, what we see is um kind of a significant significant amount of print media is being delivered to um home addresses of um both asset owners and asset managers.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_00: What we also see is that um a lot of the activity that publishers have been doing has also been geared towards um uh getting the print media to the offices because we've seen that a lot of fund managers, if you look, for instance, France and Italy, they still have a lot of them have been working in the office still.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_00: Uh quite uh um big amount of of um a large amount of of uh fund management professionals have have been working from the office, and a lot of print media are going to those offices as well.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_00: So we don't believe that everything will shift kind of in a binary way from an old world to a new world, but it does really kind of accelerate the um adoption of digital.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_00: That's something that we that we definitely definitely see.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um another thing that we kind of think is that definitely depending on how this yeah, the vaccines will um deal, if you will, with uh the uh number of infections uh across Europe and across other geographies as well.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_00: If the the moment that it starts to normalize, we believe that we will go to a certain extent, we will go back to normal as well.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_00: So we will expect a lot of out-of-home activity.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um we will we will expect uh print media still to have a role to play, and other more um um other other means of of reaching audiences will will still be important.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_00: But I do think this is the again, as we said, this is the year of the marketer.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_00: This is also the year that has really accelerated digital.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_00: So I think if I need to summarize, I would say it's not only digital, but digital has definitely kind of uh received a nutch, if you will, from uh from this crisis.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_02: So how how in that vein, how easy is it then for asset managers to compete in these very congested competitive channels, do you think?
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's uh that's the million-dollar question, I would say.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_02: Just a simple answer for us, please, Vincent.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_00: Simple answer is uh they will do well.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, no.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_00: No, uh let me start with saying that I it's almost like um you know being on a food market, if you will.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_00: There's so many people, so so many different colors of food and and fruit and vegetables and so on.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that's how I look at asset management.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_00: Asset management is so unbelievably uh diverse that um it's not all the same thing because I do know that there are a lot of people when I talk to some of um uh yeah, some of the asset management marketeers, uh some of them feel that it's all the same and that all fund managers are just kind of trying to do the same trick.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't I don't agree with that.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_00: I think that fund management is is really diverse and versatile.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_00: So I do believe that if you look at the solutions that people kind of um have uh for an investment portfolio, there's so much to choose from.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I do think that the creativity of the marketing teams, uh the creativity of the sales teams or the portfolio management teams, that's basically what kind of is the that creates the gems which uh commercial people can work with.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_00: So I do believe that there's a lot of room for uh as a management markers and professionals to still uh differentiate themselves from from others.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I see a lot of good examples.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_00: Again, if I would look at uh kind of the storyline of companies like Baby Give it, but also from Rubico, um, they find ways to tell the story in a way that is compelling, it's credible, uh relevant, but also differentiating.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_00: So I do believe there's enough room to compete for asset managers, and because there's uh so much differentiation in what's being offered by asset managers, uh both active managers and and um and ETF providers, I believe that there's enough room uh to actually um stand to set themselves uh apart and to kind of capture the imagination of uh of asset owners.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_00: I think ESG is a good example where that happens.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_00: If I look at ESG uh and I look at you can talk about ESG in general, in a general sense, but you can also look at the sustainable development goals and actually kind of uh integrate those sustainable development goals into the way that investing is being done and then tell the story, and then obviously there need to be performance as well.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_00: But I think there's so much to kind of build differentiating stories on that I don't believe that there's no room for fund managers to compete.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_00: I think there's a lot of room to compete and to differentiate.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I I um I agree with all what you're saying though, Vincent.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_02: I think such a key part of telling those compelling stories and uh engaging clients is dependent on asset managers really finding their authentic voice in the market, as you say, and uh and really staying true to that, not deviating, but kind of really being very focused around where they can add an opinion and where they have an authentic voice.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and what I would add to that as well, because this I think this is the authentic voice, I think it's really kind of you've kind of articulated that really well, because I think at the end of the day, it's also again going back from uh to my time when I was kind of working for fund managers myself and I was part of these investment committees and then the product initiative committees and so on.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_00: And if you look at the discussions that that we had, um if you leave it, and I'm not I'm not saying anything negative about portfolio managers and uh salespeople, but they have their agendas.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_00: So if you would leave it to 200 uh portfolio managers of a fund manager, uh they would communicate a new product every day because every portfolio manager wants them product their product to be promoted, and um that's I think one of the challenges that asset managers have been facing for a very long time.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_00: I think most asset managers have now managed to start to actually have influence have an influence on the portfolio portfolio management teams to kind of make sure that we don't try to kind of talk about all our products, but that we try to talk about us, our belief, our investment beliefs, and from there kind of create a specific uh section for ourselves, if you will, in the positioning uh to kind of bring a credible, uh differentiating, and a kind of really strong story, compelling story uh um across.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's something that I I believe increasingly more asset managers are succeeding in.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um but for that they need to kind of um have these internal discussions with the portfolio management teams uh to ask them for some patience uh until their product gets featured at some point.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_02: And such a key part of that is being the you know a respected party and influential voice in the business, isn't it?
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_02: And being able to um sort of lead those conversations internally.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_02: And just um Vincent, you were talking about positioning.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_02: I I'd be interested to know your your thoughts.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_02: You talk um around who you think is doing a great job in the market, having that focus, you know, who who who you say would you say is doing segmentation and targeting and positioning well in the market?
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so uh maybe uh listening to the question, I think that for me I would take two aspects from it.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_00: So I think the if you look at the segmentation and targeting um and and and actually kind of separated from positioning, I think if I look at positioning, I think more asset managers are struggling with positioning than um than with the segmentation and the targeting.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_00: Because I think most asset managers will understand that they either want to focus you know which regions, which um target groups, whether institutional uh intermediaries or end investors in the in which um uh regions.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um what I see uh increasingly kind of being done in a better and more professional way is the segmentation and targeting.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_00: So there over the past years we've seen that fund managers have started to really kind of accumulate a wealth of data uh about the different uh target groups and really being able to have highly targeted activities, not only for people that they already know and have in their CRM systems and into in their marketing automation systems, but also um kind of with those that they don't know yet.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_00: So we know that in the past at least five years, a lot of fund managers have been working with programmatic activity, understanding across the globe um how to target the different uh target groups and working with all kinds of technology, including cookie-based technology, to uh make sure that they give they send relevant messages to the relevant audience at the right time.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so I think that I've seen a lot of growth in that area.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_00: So there are a lot of fund managers that are doing segmentation and targeting much better.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_00: They don't waste um an incredible amount of money on uh non-relevant audiences.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I think that has been also driven by the fact that there's this big um pressure on fees and the marketing budgets are increasingly under pressure.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_00: If I look at positioning, I see another um I see another trend actually.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_00: I see that positioning is something, it's more kind of I would always say creativity-led.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_00: So it's strategy, but it's also requires a certain creativity.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_00: And there I see that um there are uh more asset managers who are struggling with that, uh, trying to get the different functions to work together to get to find the solution, if you will, because I think every fund manager is looking for a solution as to how they can position themselves.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody's talking about the why nowadays.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, you can't go to any seminar, everybody will talk about the why.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_00: I don't talk about the why because I think it's a bit boring, but I I know what they're I know what they're trying to do.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_00: Uh what they're trying to do is not to talk about product after product after product after product, but talk about something meaningful on the longer term.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of the fund managers are finding that in EST-related uh teams and topics.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_00: What I see is those that find a way to kind of tell a compelling story, which they can actually then uh showcase and prove with uh strong strategies and well-performing strategies, those are the ones that are being quite successful.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_00: And therefore, I think uh the key thing to get there is to have a good collaboration between the creative people who are responsible for brand and promotion promotional activities, um, and the people who are responsible for the tech and uh web design um and the people who are creating the content.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_00: It's almost like a concerto, it's almost like a you know, it's it's like a concert.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_00: You you need to almost um what I see is that the the strong CMOs and the strong heads of EMIA, heads of North American marketing, those are the ones who are succeeding in getting all these different functions to work closely together and to create a strong segmentation, targeting, and positioning uh for the company and being able to actually have the internal conversations.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_00: And apart from that, what I also see is that because we are doing all of this for asset owners and for uh actually for the investors, it is important to make sure that we kind of really understand the different target groups and kind of understand the user experience that's required to get that strong message uh out through the client, and then actually kind of making sure that as you have a conversation with the different target audiences, you don't tell them the same story again and again and again.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_00: Because if we look at how some asset managers do their marketing, they just kind of yeah, actually they kind of communicate the same thing for three months, then the next thing for three months, then the next thing for three months.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_00: That's something we don't believe.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_00: And we we think that in this day and age, there's so much sophistication and technology and data available that we can actually kind of on an ongoing basis, almost on a daily basis, we can actually change our messaging to make sure that we we if somebody has engaged with a message already, for instance, an ESG message, where we've kind of we've seen that they've engaged with a topic about uh sustainability, uh sustainable future.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um, why would we show them the message again and again and again?
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe it would be better then to show them some of the solutions that we have.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_00: And when they've engaged with one of those solutions, we can show them some of the products that we have, solutions that we have there.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_00: And that type of um of kind of almost technology-based segmentation, targeting, and positioning.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_00: So not in a linear way, but in a very kind of agile way and then a short-cycled way.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_00: That's what I think uh the asset managers do that are most successful.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_00: So they have put together the systems, the processes, and the skills that they have internally to be able to understand who has seen what and making sure that they actually kind of have the relevant conversation and get the relevant uh information um after they have already engaged with um yeah, with a specific topic.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_00: So maybe this sounds like um almost like a um futuristic um uh yeah aspiration, but this is already happening.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_00: So a lot of fund managers are already doing this really right, kind of getting their their positioning, kind of translating that into a compelling message and getting that message across in a very, yeah, as I said, measurable way and in a in an engaging way.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_02: It's interesting hearing you talk about that, Vincent, because what if you if we move to talking about what the sort of challenges and opportunities for asset managers are in 2021?
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I I wonder whether the alignment of the sort of systems and the processes, as well as you know, this orchestra is constantly you talk about the integration right across their people and their skills, as well as really deriving the insight from the data that we all have.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think there's no shortage of data now, is there?
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_02: But it's sort of around how do we nimbly apply that to our strategies?
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_02: You know, is are those some of the things that you're you're talking to clients about in terms of um you know their 2021 priorities?
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, uh so the that's one of the things that we talk about, and what we also um try to do is um we try to talk to them about the things that we can actually also help them with.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and again, with the experience that I have from the estimating side, I know how busy they are, how much pressure they have, so they don't have a lot of time to really spend and develop new stuff.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_00: So what we try to do is we try to understand what they need to be able to um yeah, actually to kind of progress on that journey because I see it as a journey.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_00: There everybody's trying to become the best at what they are doing.
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_00: And what we're trying to do is we're trying to offer almost like building blocks, if you will, that they can use.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_00: And um, some of these building blocks would then be, for instance, uh being able to target the right audience with the right message at the right time, which is easier said than done.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_02: And nirvana, yeah.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, it's it's it's I would not call it a nirvana because uh if if it's nirvana, we're already there, I would say, because it is possible uh with the technology that we have, but it does require.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_00: Because maybe the best way to kind of explain it if I look at the nirvana, if you look at um at Google and Apple and um Salesforce, but also at the likes of um um uh Facebook, I think I already mentioned, but those are companies that they do have the opportunity to understand the online behavior of people.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_00: And then this is taking us into the area of GDPR and in the area of cookies and in the area of uh kind of highly targeted uh and and and cookie consent and so on.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_00: It is possible that there's a lot of technology where we ask people to, if they want to have that targeted message, if they don't want to be bothered, for instance, with equity messaging because they are an insurance company that only has technical research that can be invested in fixed income, why would we bother them with uh with equity?
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_00: So if they give us that type of information, which can be given through a cookie-based uh platform or through a CRM system, why would we bother them with those things that are not relevant?
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_00: So that type of technology um is already already out there and it's being used heavily uh by quite a few.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_00: So it does give us the opportunity to indeed uh have this highly targeted approach where we don't kind of we don't send them any equity message, but only the relevant fixed income messages.
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_00: And if we know that they've engaged with uh fixed income message about uh credits, but they don't they're not interested in in credits because it has too uh a risk profile which is too high, and they rather would look uh want to look at uh uh Goffis, then we actually kind of target them with Goffy.
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_00: So that type of targeting is already out there, it's already being done with uh kind of within um it's completely GDPR compliant, and um it gives the opportunity, it gives asset managed the opportunities to really highly target their uh their audiences.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_00: So uh yeah, so I think that that part, so that that getting the right message to the right audience at the right time, that's something that we believe fits in the in this uh uh day and age where everybody is looking for um understanding where to allocate the marketing resources.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_00: Because we already we all know the discussion that you know there's a lot of money being spent on marketing.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_00: We know half of it is wasted, but we don't know which half.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't have to be like that anymore.
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_00: So we we we if we look at the the coming years, we focus with our clients on kind of creating that highly targeted marketing and that impactful marketing on understanding what works and what doesn't, and optimizing that actually.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_00: So we call it outcome-oriented uh planning.
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_00: So understanding who we who do we want to target, what do we want to achieve uh in this group?
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_00: What do we know of them?
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_00: Can we get their consent uh to kind of uh gather uh specific information that will help us to give them the right message and so on and so forth?
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_00: So that's one of the key uh one of the key trends that we see, and one of the key areas that we are actually um trying to help our clients to explore next year.
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_00: But again, you wanted to ask something, I think.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_02: I was just gonna ask a sort of side question around the changes to kind of some of the cookie regulations, whether uh you know how you're talking to clients about that and whether that's um something that's easy to navigate or a concern in any way.
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe it's good to say that I think most people will know, but just to be sure that everybody's on the same page, is that we know that um before the end of next year, uh third-party cookies will be uh obsolete.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_00: So there will it's something that has been uh in the making for quite a long time.
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of the targeting and audience management that we currently see, uh not only in asset management, by the way, in marketing across the globe, is uh cookie-based.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um in conversations with clients, what we see is that not everybody is uh completely aware of this, uh that this is going to happen.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_00: So, what we have been doing is we've been developing alternative uh solutions for uh for cookie-based audience targeting.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and definitely this is one of the biggest bigger trends for 2021 as well, uh, that some will find themselves in a quite a difficult position because um I think the best way to explain this is that in some of the conversations that we have with clients, uh, some clients will say that uh, yeah, we know our clients, we have all our clients in the CRM system, and you know, we know all the intermediaries and so on.
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so we don't need to kind of gather new audiences through um cookie-based targeting and audience targeting and so on.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_00: The the the the issue here is that people are not static, people are agile.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so people uh change jobs and people uh yeah, there will be new people in the in the in becoming an intermediary, some people will retire and so on.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_00: So it means that on the longer term, we need to still kind of get more information about people who are not yet uh an intermediary, but about to become an intermediary or just became an intermediary.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_00: And to be able to do that, you will have to have systems that go beyond just the CRM system.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um actually to kind of really uh prospect and and get more people uh in in front of your message.
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_00: Uh that's something that will become More difficult as the third party cookies will be abolished.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_00: And therefore, most fund managers, if not all, will have to uh think about it if they have not thought about it this year yet.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_00: And in the next year, they will have to implement new systems.
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_00: Otherwise, they will be kind of in a situation where they will not be able to do the this highly targeted audience engagement and sending kind of the giving the right message to the right audience at the right time.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_00: Because currently a lot of that is cookie-based.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_00: And there are a lot of other ways to do that, which are all again GDPR compliant.
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_00: So everything that we talk about is making sure that we have ways to communicate the right thing to the right audience at the right time, but then within um yeah, within uh law, uh within the law, if you will, and within within um in line with GDPR regulation.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_00: And again, we I'm a bit maybe a bit um worried that some are underestimating what what is coming our way.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_00: I would almost argue it's almost like with MIFIT 2 implementation.
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_00: I saw a lot of it, a lot of the MIFIT 2, a lot of people made a lot of money out of MIFIT 2 implementation in the last six months.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_00: And maybe, unfortunately, that's the same thing that's going to happen with the cookie, uh third-party cookie uh um yeah uh projects as well.
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of maybe at the last at the last moment, a lot of people will be brought in to find solutions.
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_00: But we are trying to, we've been working on a solution for a very long time and talking to us our clients about it.
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_00: And we believe that uh the first six to nine months of the coming year will be spent uh on uh getting things sorted uh for the time, yeah, actually after the uh third-party cookie have been abolished.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_02: Right, thank thanks, Vincent.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_02: That's um given everybody something else to think about for the for the year ahead.
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_02: Um, just uh I guess a conscious of time, any other sort of final thoughts for our listeners uh as to you know their uh planning and their thinking um for 2021?
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so I think the the for me the the key thing would be um if I look at the um um the the future of asset management and the fact that mareteers have had a good year um in terms of uh dealing with the fallout, if you will, of the crisis and actually leading the way in uh client communication.
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_00: I think if I look at next uh next year, for me the um the key message um would be to kind of continue uh you know in that spirit and to make sure that marketing is at the helm uh in trying to coordinate between the different functions because it's not only between the marketing functions of uh site design, uh analytics, um, and uh promotional activities and content creation, but also in close collaboration with uh portfolio management and and and salespeople uh to get the um the the compelling stories of the asset managers uh across to the um to the asset owners and to the end investors.
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_00: I think keeping that spirit and continuing in that spirit and not going back to the days before um the COVID-19 crisis, I think that would be my my main message.
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, brilliant.
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_02: Well, thank you, Vincent.
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_02: That just leads me to to wish you a very uh happy and healthy 2021.
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_02: Um I wish you every success and look forward to chatting to you again soon.
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you very much.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for having me, and I wish everyone that's listening also.
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um I wish everyone a really great 2021 and successful one as well.
• 47:29
  SPEAKER_00: And uh yeah, stay safe.