Latest / Beyond The Trailhead / Zpacks Marketing Director Mateo Favero | Beyond the Trailhead Podcast Ep. 43

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Zpacks Marketing Director Mateo Favero | Beyond the Trailhead Podcast Ep. 43 · Beyond The Trailhead

• speaker-0: Alright everyone, welcome back to another incredible episode of Beyond the Trailhead. ⁓ we have a credible guest again this week, like always. ⁓ we have ⁓ Matteo Favreau from Z Pax on. Mateo, nice to meet you and great to have you on. speaker-1: Yeah, nice to meet you as well. It's ⁓ good to be here. speaker-0: Awesome. Well, you guys are out in Florida actually. You guys have your offices out there and ⁓ ever if anybody's out been hiking and stuff like that, they've used Z Packs to some degree. They're your ⁓ tents, backpacks, your little camp slippers that you guys have, all that good stuff. but wanted to have you guys on as someone who's been in the industry for quite a while. I know that you've been with Z Packs since twenty ten, so you've got a lot of you're like a seasoned veteran in the outdoor space. ⁓ And just wanted to get your your thoughts on ⁓ a few things in the outdoor industry, but then also just hear a little bit about Z Packs, the history of you guys, ⁓ and anything else that, you know, the insight that you guys might give. Cause I've I got a a recent email from somebody and it it was they're starting an outdoor ⁓ brand and it's a a food company. And they were they were telling me they love listening to podcasts and they've learned a lot before they start their brand. ⁓ and so it's great to hear from industry professionals like yourselves. ⁓ in the outdoor space and the ultralight space ⁓ specifically. ⁓ so I guess without further ado, let's go ahead and just kind of roll into your role, Mateo, and then ⁓ the kind of the background of Z Pax. speaker-1: Yeah. So my role I am the director of marketing and design. ⁓ and currently that ⁓ entails like obviously email, SMS, social media marketing, the social media itself, ⁓ whatever, like anything marketing related, obviously, right? ⁓ and then another huge part of what I do is ⁓ the design team falls under me, ⁓ which is currently three people and then the owner. The owner doesn't fall under me. He's He's he's the he's the boss of every team, right? But but ⁓ the hi the on a daily basis they wr they report to me and ⁓ and that's something we've really, really been focusing on in the last two to three years. And I don't know if you've been paying attention or not, but ⁓ I like to joke that like we come out with more products in a year than like all of our direct direct competition in the ultrally niche combined. Usually yeah. ⁓ Our just design team is like rocking and rolling. Like we always have ⁓ you know, we got two lists basically. We've got a ⁓ an in source design list and an outsource design list. ⁓ and they both things always have over 50 things on it. We constantly have all these little things are like making like incremental progress. ⁓ yeah, ⁓ you know, as as we go until they come out. But it's my favorite part. That's cool. The design part, yeah. ⁓ terms of Z Packs, ⁓ ZBax was started by our owner Joe Velesco in 2005. ⁓ basically, it's a true entrepreneur story. ⁓ you know, he decided that he after college he was gonna go hike the AT. He's he started get prepping for it, and ⁓ he was looking at all the gear and he was like, This is all terrible. It's all heavy. There's all these extra these huge webbings and buckles and all these extra zippers, and it's overcomplicated. And ⁓ he's And like, you know, like like a a true entrepreneur is like, I can do better. I could do better. Right. And so like he s sat down on his mom's sewing machine and he's started making some stuff. He went down on the a ⁓ on the AT. He didn't get far before he realized the stuff sucked. ⁓ so he came back, built like Rev two, went out, that stuff was better, and then came back again, built rev three, and that got him to the end. And kind of what happened where people At that point, he's at the end. ⁓ he he has this gear and it's proving itself, like but not it's not a concept, like it's handling an AT through hike at this point. And so p other hikers were like, Hey, when you go back, will you make me the NSW? And he was like, Well, no, I'm a computer programmer. I'm gonna go, I'm gonna go do get a job and be like a normal person. But people kept pounding him, and so he started making stuff in the kitchen, like after work, and then he'd throwing it up on the website, and then eventually. It got to the point where it was up like a part time job and eventually got to the point where it was a full time job and then brought his wife wife in and then two thousand ten it went full time, full time and ⁓ he brought me in. ⁓ I started working beside him in the garage in their house, like the the true like American dream story, right? Starting in the garage and now we're yeah, we're pretty substantial size for for our niche. Yeah. ⁓ And ⁓ yeah, it's been a h a hell of a ride sixteen year well yeah, this month is sixteen years for me. speaker-0: Yeah. No, that's that's cra that's that's really, really cool. And you guys are I know I said you guys are based in Florida, so is Joe in Florida? It's always been like home base or is speaker-1: No, this is ⁓ this is such a Joe story, if you know Joe. But basically he would they were out on the ⁓ C D T and they're like, When we come back, this is gonna be it, like we're gonna do this full time. Yeah. And so his aunt had passed away who had a house in Florida, and so they needed somebody to stay there and watch it until they got it ready to sell. And so they came down for a few months. And when he was there, he was like, What do we need to do this full time? Proximity to a US PS speaker-0: ⁓ speaker-1: ⁓ post office branch. That's it. That's all we need. We can do this in a as long as there's a post office. So he started looking around for the most house that he could get for the cheapest price. And he ended up finding a place and I wouldn't say this now because house prices in Florida are out of control. But yeah ⁓ in 2009, I think when they did it, like he found this house in Pombay, Florida, like a a great house at a great price. And he was like, it's close to a post office. Let's move there. And like that was his his whole decision for where he was gonna live was most house for the money. I don't care where it's at. Yeah. and ⁓ so that's why we're if it f ⁓ in Florida. And it was crazy because I knew about Z Packs just being a hiker myself, yeah, before and I knew that they were based in New York. And then I happened to go on the website because I was gonna I was gonna take all these guys on a trip and I was gonna make a power point about going l ultra light. And ⁓ why it was important and I wanted to take some info from the Z Pack site. So when I I went back and I was gonna ask permission ⁓ from Joe to, you can I use some pictures and some stuff from your site? And I noticed that he moved to the city like like 15 minutes south of me. I'm like, What? So why is why why are you here? Like what yeah, so ⁓ so I emailed him and instead of asking permission, I was like, Could I just take you out to lunch? And ⁓ let's say so I took him out, took him and his wife Cheryl out. ⁓ to lunch and then we when we got back to his house he's like you want a job and I was like doing what he's like sewing I was like I don't know how to sew and he's like I'll teach you and I was like Yeah I I was kind of in between jobs because ⁓ my previous job was like s doing designing architectural shapes for new construction and that was like right after the housing boom like like exploded and so the company I work for went out of business and I I took it shot. I was like hell like let's do it. And so And there I was working in the garage w i in their two car garage, you know, with just the two of ⁓ learning how to sew from from scratch, never doing it, having done it ever. Yeah. speaker-0: That's a cool story 'cause I love I I love unique stories like that. Instead of someone asking you're literally like, Hey, let me take you out and you're like that's that go getter mentality that I'm trying to tell my kids all the time. I'm like, Hey, you need to just go out and like ask for things and stuff it doesn't hurt to ask. speaker-1: ⁓ I'd I I'm a big like on on that, I just want to philosophically yeah, like I I'm not a like there's definitely like ⁓ good fortune or whatever, but I'm not a big fan of of talking about luck. Cause like nine tim nine times out of ten, it's like for you to receive the opportunity that people say luck revol r resulted in so many deliberate decisions that put you in the room to even walk through the door. Yeah. So it's so it's like it If you're making the effort to be in the right room, yeah, to and be ready to walk through the door, I don't call that luck so much. That's just you you did the work to put yourself in the right room, right? Yeah. And ⁓ it's easy to be like, ⁓ no, nothing happens. Like, but what are you doing? Are you like doing anything to like move in this direction? So I agree. It's hard my daughter I wish had some of the same things that I'm talking about. She's a speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: ⁓ I just wanna do this roll on my phone, you know. ⁓ yeah, yeah. speaker-0: ⁓ it's funny you say that too, because there's a couple of I have a couple of ⁓ people that I know in the outdoor space and they kind of complain about ⁓ not growing and stuff like that. But I I know from just knowing them that they're not doing anything to grow. And I'm like, you can't just sit there on one single product or anything like that and just sit there and wait. You've gotta do your marketing, you've gotta do planning revisions on your product, you've got to show that you're a Growing company so people will kind of latch on and stuff like that. I think that's what you guys do a lot really, really well is your social media marketing and stuff like that is awesome. And then the innovation that you guys bring into I mean, every I mean you guys have so many different products, but I know, you know, specifically tents, backpacks, and then just kind of unique little one-off items that are that are really, really cool. ⁓ I was at Trail Days, I've been mentioning this a couple of times on some episodes, but I was at Trail Days and ⁓ I ran into your team and stuff like that and ⁓ si you know, I went to Tent City and you know, you see a lot of different tents, but you also see a lot of Z Packs and Dan's tents and stuff like that because people love the innovation, the lightness of it and everything else. But I think that attributes to not just thing, but that's the whole marketing and the and everything aspect of it. speaker-1: Yeah, for sure. I mean, and we were lucky enough that we kind of were like ⁓ an early we were the early adopter of DCF or fiber at the time. Yeah. And I I like to joke that if you can find it if you go looking for it. If you go to backpacking light forums from like two thousand eight to two thousand ten and see what they were saying about DCF, it'll never work. It's not a tent fabric, it's garbage, it'll be and then like okay ⁓ was it? Like yeah. Now now every, you know, premium high end, like at least backpacking shelter. I wouldn't necessarily like mountaineering or anything, but yeah, is made out of DCF. It's the social proof was there. And being an early adopter gave us so much social proof right out of the gate. So so that so that's nice and I build brand loyalty and brand trust and all those things as well. speaker-0: ⁓ yeah. Yeah. So I guess going into the question I usually ask people is if there's like an ⁓ crap moment, I guess in talking about DCF, since you guys were one of the first leading people in it, what were some like I'm sure there were all kinds of like, hey, I'm we're using something that no one's ever used before, what were some like pitfalls to that? Was it Well I construction or marketing? speaker-1: well, no, ⁓ I wouldn't say the markings so much. I would say it we are pushing boundaries and like the fabric itself was designed, you know, for ultralight racing sales. They were pushing the boundaries of what a fat fabric could do in any application. And so I think that's figuring out how much reinforcement something needs, where it needs to be reinforced, the type of hems that you need, the ty How are you gonna seal this? ⁓ things things like that. It was really or like simp simply, you know, this is not ⁓ outdoor or DCF specific, but screen stretches, DCF doesn't stretch. You're sewing to one stretchy thing to ⁓ something that doesn't stretch. Like how do you make sure everything lines up and like just the the techniques and stuff? I think that was ⁓ you know, what you really were going through. And I think We got I think w we're now, I mean, obviously sixteen years later, we know what works, what doesn't work when it comes to to to DCF. We've made our mistakes. And then that what sucks is like ⁓ sometimes you'll see a new company come along or a small, you know, a smaller ⁓ company, you know, so a lot of times it's like one guy working out of like a room in their house, which is awesome. That's how we started. Yeah. But you see them make the same mistake, use the same materials. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: That we know are gonna fail because we already have years of data on that. And you're like, ⁓ man, it's like that's so cool. I mean, it's cool, but like someone's gonna buy that and it's gonna fall apart because it fell apart for us. You know, we know like how the material acts and how it responds. Yeah. I mean, I think that was the learning curve with DCF. What's I think back then we talked about the marketing component. 2010, the core customer of this type of product was like. ⁓ a make your own gear type of mindset. They didn't care about the finish. They didn't like all they wanted was like, could I how light is this? Is this light? And like will I not die if I use it? And like and like pe people were really interested, like jokingly, in like s seeing how close to death they could be. And still it's it's still like they weren't a lot of them weren't necessarily enjoying the actual act of the hiking, they were enjoying like how far they were able to push their kit, right? And I think now, since then, you know, now you could type in best backpack or best ten or whatever. And you've got all these top ten lists. And you know, a lot of people in our space, including ourselves, are in in all those lists. And now you have like an Amazon style customer who's got no frame of reference, no idea like ⁓ really what they're getting into. They're just like, I saw this, it said it was the best and I'm gonna buy it. It's not like they don't really understand maybe s some limitations, ⁓ that or considerations that you need to take with with 'cause it's really it's performance like gear. And like I'm not saying that performance gear falls apart, but it's like like if you get a fender bender and a fiberglass Corvette, it's not gonna handle as well as like a nineteen like sixties charger. Like right. It's like one th one thing was built big big and burly and robust. And another thing was built, you know, for like tracks and looks more more more than anything. Yeah. And so you get an Amazon customer who doesn't understand that performance anything, like usually comes with some limitations. It's not you're not gonna buy a super ultra backpack from any of the people in our niche and if you're twenty and be and use it regularly and be have it when you're sixty. Like you know, like s some of these big old like framed packs that you see from the sev seventies, like my wife's dad's pack. We that's we have it hanging up at a our property of Georgia because it's he c you could still use it. It doesn't really and he used it all over the place. So it pr it probably weighed seven pounds empty, but speaker-0: Love that analogy of like performance, because I watched car videos all the time. And you know, you got like the perfect that's a perfect example of the carbon fiber and all everything else. You've still gotta take care of it and stuff like that. Cause I see some people, they make videos on YouTube sometimes and stuff like that of certain tents or whatever, and they're like, ⁓ this falls apart, or this the, you know, the the tub of my tent getting holes in it. And I'm like, Well, it's a certain type of material, it's not, you know, like. giant thick canvas that you can just flop on and, you know, walk on it with your shoes, you know, over and over and over again. So ⁓ no, that's a really good I'm I'm I'm keeping that as like a huge huge point. That's a great speaker-1: My my go to analogy when I get into this into this space, it really from a marketing standpoint, not like continuing that, is we're try we make race car tires, right? Like those if you think think it we make race car tires. How many people need race car tires? Almost nobody because everybody has a Toyota Corolla. Toyota Corolla is awesome. It's gonna last you forever. It's gonna do the trick. But when you go from this mindset of like a hobbyist or just like a, you know, a normal civilian to like, I want to go pro-am or you know, because there's very few pro like hikers, but like but I want to go pro am. I want to like step up my game, right? It doesn't matter what discipline you're in or what you're into, like that's you start making a a leap where you the price point of what you're buying changes and all that stuff. But when we go back to a race car tire, do you race car tires are really, really expensive. Almost nobody needs them. But to your point, do you know how long a race car tire lasts? Like at a desk. Like they they drive it for like 60 miles and it's done. Like right. And I'm not I'm not saying that's the our gear can obviously ⁓ can last full through hikes and beyond. But it's not bom proof forever type of thing, right? Yeah. And it's like this is you're upgrading your game in terms of performance. How yeah, how light you can get it, your entire kit, how small that volume can be, so you're easier to navigate, things like that. Like you have all these considerations that are like allowing you to either go faster ⁓ or farther in a day, but take both of those out of there. Hey I'm 70 years old. My knees are shot. My back always hurts. Like I still only want to do eight miles a day, but I don't want to do it with seventy pounds. I want to do it with 25 pounds or 22 pounds. Because the wear and tear my body is so much less. So you're really creating a per like I have to look at it, like a performance type of thing. And with that, like a race car tire, like it's not for everybody. You gotta understand you pay a premium price for P premium fabrics and technology. Yeah. But it's not designed to be a Toyota Corolla. Like right. Yeah. And I think I think a lot of people expect for the price that you pay sometimes that you get the Toyota Corolla with like 500,000 miles on it. And it's like, no, it's not the price is indicative of the fabrics and the technology and what it allows you to do and open up. It's not necessarily indicative of the longevity of it. Yeah. speaker-0: That's good. And there's always a market for everybody's, you know, what what what they need. I mean, I feel like when I'm when I'm on the the trail, so when I'm when I'm at the start of the AT, I see people do their shakedown and stuff like that. And so I see a lot of like ⁓ you know, Kelty and stuff like that kind of brands. And nothing wrong with those backpacks, but they like what you were saying with you know, I don't want to hike with 70 pounds, I want to hike with twenty-five pounds. And then I see them do their shakedown and then they're at the store and they're like swapping out for bags, like all kinds of like ultralight pads and stuff, because they realize, hey, I can save, gosh, so much, so much weight. Even when I got into it, I was thinking, and I think the biggest barrier for most people is just like the initial, you know, once you know you like backpacking and you want to do it, then you gotta go, okay, I wanna spend like with anything, I think you go. a little bit in and then you go, okay, now gonna spend money to get into it and go. And I think that's probably the biggest barrier. The good thing is like when I go through your site and stuff like that, I feel like you can almost go and get everything Z Packs except for a few tiny things. But like you could literally kit yourself out on everything Z packs. So what I mean guess what's the biggest barrier do you find is it price for most people when it comes to the outdoor like ultralight space is you think it's when they go, Hey, I wanna go ultralight 'cause I I mean I can price out something and I'm like, you know, way overboard, but speaker-1: Yeah, I I think that there's a lot of barriers for a lot of people to get outdoors in general, the outside of the g outside of the gear from from access to inclusion and all kinds of things. But I would say price with I mean it's super we make super ultralight gear out of like the most premium fabrics. Like generally. Like that's Like almost everything we make is the lightest function functional version of that thing in the world. And if it's not the lightest, it's like you know, we're talking like within like three percent, right? Yeah. So it's like that's our specialty. And the reason we do that is for the performance aspect. Right. And with that it c that comes a price. ⁓ we don't really have ⁓ currently, ⁓ you know, although it's not something that we've ruled out, but like currently we don't have like a lower and like a sil nylon tent that can get you and like right other companies will have I'm just getting into it this is still it's still half the weight of my a current tent so like that's a you know and I can get it for like three hundred bucks, two ninety nine. And then it's like ⁓ I like this style. I like this design. I'm ready to go all in now and then you know maybe then they upgrade to yeah. you know, a seven hundred plus dollar DCF tent, which is just insane. The duplex was four ninety nine when it first came out. Like right? Like and now it's ⁓ you know it's how it's like seven hundred bucks and it's ⁓ whatever you know pay paying our workers a l a a living wage to yeah you know and also like the fabric just progressively got more expensive and more expensive and it's and that's not stopping. speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. speaker-1: ⁓ you know, and it's made from petroleum and look what's happening right now with all the oil and stuff. So it's like like, yeah, there is there any end in sight to where DCF can go in terms of tents, right? ⁓ and like we've been waiting for 16 years for somebody to come out with a comparable thing and no one's done it. Like we're we're not loyal to DCF because like we love dynema, like per se. It's like For us, we're pushing boundaries, pushing limits, the lightest functional version. Yeah. Is there something else that can meet or beat performance and wait? We've been waiting. We've been waiting. Like yeah, there's nothing out there, right? speaker-0: Yeah. No, that's a that's a great point. I never even thought about like the price of oil going up and and everything else. And ⁓ yeah, I I feel like sometimes you want to just go like I have tents that are cheaper tents, and then I go, man, I spent that money. I should have just spent a little bit extra. Now I know everybody's budgets are different and priorities are different. I know when I do 'cause I always mention that I'm a wedding photographer for years. And so some people will not even bat an eye when they hire me for their wedding. when it comes to the price. And then because that's a priority for them. You know, the top three priorities are usually the venue, and then ⁓ the dress and the photography. But some people could care less about photography and want to spend all their money on flowers. So when they see my price, they, you know, they just lose it and they go, what? I'm not paying that. And I'm like, okay, well, I mean, that's fine. You don't have to you don't have to pay it. You can go that route and you can still have something that'll gonna be kinda okay. But then it might not be the best thing that you could have had. ⁓ so so yeah, I mean that's are are you guys looking at like how often do you guys look for, you know, if some people are creating their own brand or are already in the space, how often are you guys looking at new fabrics? Is it like multiple times a year? speaker-1: Not all like ⁓ every minute. Like ⁓ honestly, like our our eyes and ears are open. Yeah. ⁓ that's not only from our fabric suppliers themselves, fabric suppliers reach out to us, but also like looking not only in our space at competitors of all sizes, 'cause to be honest, it's not the big the big competitors are always like three years behind. So it's like really like the the little guys are the ones that you see like experimenting. So we've got our eyes open everywhere. ⁓ including other disciplines, to see like, ⁓ is there a f ⁓ that looks we could use even if it's a buckle or a clip or whatever. It's like we always have our eyes open for something that could make ⁓ our products better or introduce a new pr a new product because like, ⁓ we've stayed away from making this particular item because we never really saw a fabric we thought could meet our standard. It's like, ⁓ well that looks like it could. Let's let's work with that. But yeah, no, we're always, always d ⁓ pushing the ⁓ to find the next the I think that you're getting diminishing returns now ⁓ in terms in the ultralight space in terms of ⁓ percentage wise of what you can cut out and weight. ⁓ but even if it's the weight doesn't go down but the strength goes up or something like that. speaker-0: ⁓ Yeah. speaker-1: ⁓ we're we're s always looking, but to be honest, there's not much ⁓ substantial innovation in terms of weight savings. Strength perhaps. Strength perhaps, but like not not really. I mean, how much later can we make get these things? speaker-0: Yeah. No, I when I used to build a bunch of stuff, I used to build a lot of props and do a lot of stuff for for marketing. And ⁓ I would always go and just walk around Home Depot and the Home Depot employee would ask me, Hey, are you what are you building? Like like I'm doing some sort of house repair. I'm like, No, I'm in the plumbing section. I'm like, no, I'm looking for a specific shape or a specific thing that can do this that has nothing to do with construction. Yeah, I think that's a great point is that you have to you can't just look when you're trying to innovate, you can't just look inside at only the outdoor camping space. Yeah. You've got to look at I mean, everything at race cars, kitchen, who knows what they're doing with kitchen gloves. And next thing you know they're using some random material that is super light or super durable that doesn't cut the knife through. And next thing you know you're like using that that material. So speaker-1: Yeah, it's it's ⁓ and that so like an interesting thing I've learned at at ZPAGs, like I mean, like it's been here a while, is ⁓ and it c it could be a deficiency on our part, but the way that we approach things in general and the way that we want things done, there's like there's almost zero examples of an out of the box solution that's ever worked for us. I'm talking from website design in the back end to our ERP system in the back end. Like whatever we're doing, it's like we usually have to be like, ⁓ it can do this thing, which isn't designed for what we want it to do, but we can ha we can hack that thing to make it do what we want it to do. And so like there's so many things in the back end of Z Packs that's like hack, hack, hack, hack, hack. Or it's just like figuring out how to achieve our vision because there's nothing that exists that can achieve it like out of the box. Like right. Yeah, it's like all It's like innovating even within the software as a service. Like is we're always like trying to figure something out. And so it's the same thing with product design. Like, ⁓ I saw this clip on this thing that whatever. Like at Walmart, that's you know, it's a beach chair that folds up, but they use this specific type of clip to keep it closed so you can use it as a backpack. Like that's a good clip. Like, how do we source a clip like that? Can we get a smaller like it's like that's constantly happening. speaker-0: Yeah. I've it's funny you say it like that, like looking at other people's stuff 'cause I was talking to somebody a couple of podcasts ago or or whatever, someone maybe on the phone, but I was talking about how they had figured out I I mentioned another company and they were like, ⁓ I've never seen that before or whatever and I was like, I've seen it and it and they're in the same space and I feel like I I don't know if you guys do this, but I always feel like when I when I do something I I order like a bunch of that other product and I will kind of, you know, reverse engineer it a little bit. Just look at what they did right and what they did wrong. But some people don't even do that. They they just see it and then they're like, ⁓ I think I can I'm like, But you have it right there. I know you have to invest a little bit, especially if you're a small garage per garage person that's like making your own gear, but you're still wanting to start it out and it might be hard to just get some gear. But I mean, there's so many like backpacks, right? You can get ⁓ order a bunch of backpacks. look at it and say, hey, these are the good aspects that I want and and everything else. So ⁓ I I mean, again, just looking at it. I'm trying to I'm trying to right now create I always say I'm not gonna create a product after I talk to people and realize how hard it is and stuff like that. But I just had a recent I was trail running and I I was like, man, I need to find a solution for this. There are solutions, but there's not any good ones. And it it's an easy product to make that I'm like, okay, it's not gonna cost me a lot. It's not going to be hard to make. I can sew it myself right now. That whole like find the solution. Then I'm like, ⁓ I'm now going down the rabbit hole of looking at materials on rips out by the roll. Like, well, what do I what do I do? And I'm like, so I ordered a bunch of products and I'm keeping them. I'm not just gonna like return them. I'm like keeping them and looking at them, going, okay, man, all these do it wrong. I can do it hopefully better. Might be a little more expensive, but it's gonna be more quality. People are gonna use it longer, it's still like that. So ⁓ speaker-1: No, it's yeah, w we on occasion we'll buy some other stuff. But luckily most of the time it's like not too hard to look at the pictures to figure out how they achieved what they what they achieved, whatever the achievement is. I think ⁓ there's a a real fun thing that like happens in the space, especially with brand loyalty, is like people are doing it, ⁓ you're ri you're ripping ⁓ off or it ⁓ just looks like this or just looks like that. And it's like I think ⁓ anybody who's who's smart and want and has an idea for a product, the first thing you do is like look at the landscape. Yeah. What what products are close? What products ⁓ are a solution for the problem, if there are any, right? How do they go about it? Like you said, what works, what did it, what did they do right, what did they do wrong? I think at the end of the day, like the there's like a Z Paxian way of approaching a product in terms of like, How we reinforce fabric consumption and all the yeah, all the list goes on and on and on, or it's like like where we can create our version of something and it will be what the lightest functional version available, right? Right. It's like cause we have an approach, right? And so I was ⁓ I may get myself in trouble here. So there you go. So if you're paying attention. So we're gonna come out with ⁓ a new long sleeve button up shirt. We currently already have one that's a collab. With town shirt. So we got a prototype in. I put like we're testing a new fabric, testing little design changes, all these things. I wore this shirt in two videos that not nothing to do with the shirt. I just had the shirt on in these videos. People were like, like, you're ripping off this company, you're ripping off the the same company. I won't say their name. You're a minute. And I was like, it's like I had I was like one guy was going crazy and he sent this email, like yeah You know how it ⁓ how it is. People are passionate. And you know, I feel like the guy thought he was white knighting the company he was talking about, who stand standing up for like the company. And I had to like break it down. I was like, like this company didn't reinvent the wheel or the long sleeve button up. They do one thing differently and they crush it at that thing. And and we love it. We like it. We like this company. I like the person like ⁓ who who who runs the company. But it's like at the end of the day, and I had I I sent them this email that was like the fabric that's being used is used by this company, this company, this company, this company links to all the products. Like like this feature is used by this company, this company. And it's like, so really like what like what are we doing? It's like we're picking like it this was a prototype, we're not even done with it. Like right as he's complaining, he's complaining about a shirt I'm wearing in a picture at a video that we weren't even talking about the shirt, but It's like but it's like, okay, like it's like we're gonna find the fabric that we like the best, like a pocket orientation. Yeah, there's some other things that I won't disclose until it comes out that are definitely unique to this sh this garment. And it's just like, ⁓ but like you ripping somebody else. Like, no, like we're making Z Pax's version of what this would be. And like the ironic part is it's mostly based off of an existing thing we already make. And like Nobody complained about that. So it's just like But you look in the space in general and people are so quick to try to say, like you rip this off, you rip this off, you rip this off. And it's like, Did Z Pax design the first truckie pole tent or A frame tent? And no. We just figured out how to make it really light and do it on a DCF and do it our way. It's like did Durston ⁓ the sh the shape of his fly, did he invent that? No, that's been like ⁓ yeah Skirka s Skirka and high Sierra designs like literally with maybe exact same ⁓ shape canopy like years and years ago. It's like yeah. So Dan if you you know he'll tell you he's like, no, the only thing I did was I made the f the floor at this interest interesting shape. Like so it's like you just go on and on and on and it's like very few companies in this space are reinventing the wheel or is the innovation in the product itself speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: this big leap where like you get a lot of credit. It's like, no, it's like it's about the nuances and those little differences, design choices, fabric choices, reinforcement choices, like, ⁓ all those things like that. I think it'd be nice, even the other companies to themselves, like right? Yeah. Is that w if they were just like, yeah, we're like, yeah, we're all making good good shit. And if that's how how how I look at it is like, as long as you're the reason why you're making the stuff is like has integrity. I want to make people's time and the outdoor better. Yeah. And I think my product does that over the other products. Like that's your intention. Like I love that because we'll all just keep pushing each other to get better. Yeah. But when you get this like cat ⁓ anytime there's like cattiness and bitterness and ⁓ which I see. I have seen it for sure. And it's like never a good look is ⁓ no, it's like we're all trying to make awesome stuff. And as long as you have have integrity, which Not everyone does. I'm not obviously gonna name names or give opinions on that. But it's like like I know who those people are, like I try to avoid them. But yeah, other than that, like most of the people in our space are good people making good things, and tr trying to make things better. It's I just get annoyed when and it's not the companies a lot of times, it's just their their fans will be like acting like this is such a new and novel thing. It's like Not really. You could have got this before from another company for the most part. That is late. speaker-0: Yeah, I mean I I feel like I go to some trade shows and ninety-nine percent of everybody just loves each other and we all are like happy and then you get that one person that I'm seeing they're they're complaining about so and so and then you're like, You don't know that I know so and so, you know? And and I'm like, man, like they're not like they'll complain like, ⁓ they copied my like you're talking about the they copied my shirt. It's not even a fan, it's just like the actual person who makes it. I'm like, you didn't reinvent the shirt or anything like that. You just did it a certain way and just do it better and make that take that as a challenge to grow more and stuff like that. I think ⁓ that's what I love about having this podcast is like helping everyb everybody that comes on is willing to share information to help other people grow. I have very few people that want that some people that don't want to be on they're like, well, I don't wanna I've had somebody say like I don't want to share My trade secrets and they were like so closed in, I was like, but there's and I'm not gonna say who it was, but like they're just like so closed in that I'm like, you like we're talking about you didn't reinvent anything. There's nothing trade secret about your stuff or anything like that. I mean, yeah, you don't even have to mention certain things. Just come on and should share and help other people grow. Cause if you grow, the whole outdoor industry grows, then everybody's going to grow overall and it's gonna be great for everybody. speaker-1: Yeah, I I our owner has a little bit of that ⁓ in in him as well, but ⁓ I'm I'm like bro, like ⁓ if you this is wild. This is wild with chat GPT right now. And so I'm ⁓ I've done this prompt, but I won't give I won't insert company names into it. But like if you do a prompt and be like, where does Company A get the fabric that they use to make Product B give you know and then ask me qualifying qu this is my favorite end of the prompt. Ask me qualifying questions until you're ninety five percent sure you give me an accurate answer and it gives you like ten questions and you answer it. And then it then it then it literally I did this prompt and it was like, ⁓ they get their favorite from here. Here is a link to the actual shipping logs coming out of the factory. Like it's like wow like there like there are barely any trade secrets left. Like right. And so it's like the thing that you could never give away. Well maybe, but I was like the thing that you can never give away that will actually pink ⁓ hurt your business is the enthusiasm to another person. Like right. If you're a go getter and you're gonna get it and you're gonna work hard, you don't you don't need somebody feeding you trade secrets, you're gonna go, you're gonna find them, you're gonna figure it out, you're gonna do the work, you're gonna do the hustle. That's why you'll succeed. Most people like have a dream and then that's it. It's like a, you know, right? And ⁓ well here's here's my enthusiasm for people. I I always say the only difference between a dream and a plan is when you put it in your calendar. The only difference if you want to start a company and you wanna make something, you wanna do this, you Like you have to be realistic, but you gotta be like, okay, I wanna make this product, put it in the calendar, buy or like whatever, November fifteenth, I'm gonna spend all day emailing fabric companies. Okay, December 14th, I'm gonna follow up. Decid January fourteenth, I'm gonna order like my favorite three samples. But like you st you just put it in your calendar and then the dream stops being a dream and now it's a plan, right? Yeah. But the thing the thing is is like how bad do you want it? How bad does anybody want anything? Yeah. So it's like giving away a trade secret. I could give away a tr a trade secret like right now, which I won't, right? But I could give away and that 99% of people won't wouldn't who even want to use that information to further themselves or come up with a product. They won't do anything with it. Right? Because do you want it? How bad do you want it? What's your motivation? speaker-0: Yeah. No, that's really good. I lo I just wrote that down. I was like Yeah Okay, I'm gonna tell it to my wife as soon as I'm done. Like write it down. She always tells me to write it down and I'm like, Okay, I'll write it down. speaker-1: Yeah. No. Yeah, I'm telling you, you start living your life, like the only difference between a dream and a plan is putting in your calendar. You will do so much more stuff. Vacations, buy ⁓ you know what? I wanna make sure I like once a month I get my wife flowers, like whatever. Every third one every third Wednesday of of a month, calendar invite, buy flower. Like, yeah. And it's like all these you could do anything. You make your your marriage better, you could you could go on vacations, you could like g go back to school, whatever you wanna do. Like Like stop talking about I wanna do it. I wanna this is the thing I wanna ⁓ my dream is to do that. Like the dream just lives here. You put it in a put it in the calendar and now it's like you're you're committed you've made a commitment to yourself. speaker-0: I did that with this podcast actually. I used to say, I'm gonna do it, I'm gonna do it, I'm gonna do it. And then finally my wife was like, Hey, just put it on the calendar, get a couple of people, and then do it. And then from there I was like, ⁓ so now it's on the calendar. I do it all the time. And I'm like, ⁓ it actually actually worked. So yeah. speaker-1: It's a routine now. Now you've now it's a thing that you do and like right, if you hadn't yeah, if your wife hadn't given you good advice, you might not have died. speaker-0: ⁓ well speaking of my wife, my wife's from South Korea and I had to ask kind of I know you guys have a little bit of ⁓ like a fan base in South Korea. And so I don't know if you can kind of tell me like how that started or what how that kind of worked out because or if you have any, even if you guys have any because I know some companies will do certain countries exclusive stuff that you can only get in that country. So how did that happen? speaker-1: No, so this was I mean, you couldn't ask for more as a brand, but this was like a hundred percent or organic initiative begun in South Korea without any conversation with us. They were just like, Hey, like we love Z PAX, we're gonna make this group called ⁓ Team Z PAX Korea. We're just gonna meet up with other Z PAX gear owners, and so they start building this group. And then they're like, ⁓ you know what we should do together? We should go on like a group hike. And so they created this thing called the Z Trek. And so they reached out and they're like, Hey, are you okay if we do this? I was like, Yeah, yeah, of course. Go go for it. And then, you know, then we got more heavily involved where we're like, Yeah, well, sending some stuff to to hand out at the events. And then I went I went and actually did the Z Trek event two years ago. And it was awesome. Such high energy. down there. Like it it's It's it's interesting the considerations that people that different cultures have ⁓ in terms of like finish and performance and all these things, ⁓ color choices. We're learning that quite quite a bit as we're expanding ⁓ with our international like distributors and stuff like that. Is like the colors that people want in Asia are totally different than what they want in Europe. Yeah. Same product, totally different color mix and it's just regional. Hold on, watch this. Now I'm in focus. Yep, there we go. ⁓ but yeah, ⁓ anyway, so the the South Korean market is really cool. Actually, I still talk to this ⁓ the team Z Pax guys ⁓ pretty frequently. I just talked to them the last week, as a matter of fact. and I know I can't pull it off my wall. I could pull this off my wall. Can I? Maybe. Come on. Yeah, look at this. I love Taki when he collects souvenirs is my little name badge. ⁓ that's cooly others. Yeah, yeah. I I learned my little bit of Korean when when I went over there. Like I said, ⁓ Mateo, that's my name is Mateo. But but ⁓ but yeah, they yeah. So ⁓ South Korea, I'm ⁓ you've probably been if you're watching South Korean, I would assume. I speaker-0: actually have never been. We've been married twenty years and I still have not gone. So we are talking of our twentieth anniversary went to Italy instead of South Korea. But next the next trip we're taking is we're gonna fly into Japan, stay there for a week and then go to South Korea for a week. So speaker-1: Which is pretty good. Man, we when we went we went everywhere. We were ⁓ in Seoul, we went to this little vila ⁓ town, like a surf town on the w on the yeah, east coast. We went down to Busan, bro. It was like Busan is sick. I like Busan. Yeah. So you should you should do speaker-0: That's cool. Do you guys have any like anything that you can buy ⁓ in South Korea that you can't get here or is it still the same stuff, just maybe different colors and stuff like that? speaker-1: ⁓ no, it's all the same stuff. We we're you're basically you're buying through direct through the website. We did make for Team ⁓ the Team Korea I mean for Z Track we made them some custom ⁓ like zip pouches, but it was a giveaway. It wasn't something you could buy. And the year before that we did a shirt. Look, I ha actually had some of the the the the labels that the labels that you can't read it. says Team Z Packs Korea with a South Korean flag. Yeah. But yeah, like w we had like sh shirts with like this, you know, on the sleeve. Yep. But basically it's the exact same stuff. speaker-0: Yeah. That's cool. 'Cause I always I I know some people are trying to get into other markets sometimes and and ⁓ even just talking to the last podcast I had with Mike Mojica, ⁓ with outdoor elements. He does like fire stuff and he was jokingly saying how like working through just like California is like almost like another country with the rules and stuff they have to go through with all and everything else. So I can only imagine, you know, people who are trying to get into The US market, if they're from another country or vice versa, it can be, you know, hard shipping. I don't think people think about the barriers that are there to get into another country or just to ship to another country. So speaker-1: ⁓ yeah. I mean every country has its own like you know, import, export, law and like the VAT the VAT tax and like luckily if you're if you've got the right e commerce platform, ⁓ it depends like if you're selling direct to consumer or like B to B, but ⁓ it's like you know, like Shopify if you have the right platform can do pretty good for you. Yeah. ⁓ h helping you out there. But no, there's I mean, even the state Tax laws now, like it's like every state has a different law and threshold for sales over the internet. And some is like like once you reach a certain dollar amount, then you've got to pay this much. One one some are if once you reach a certain number of raw sales, regardless of what the revenue total is, and then you get and so it's like you'll start the year out and it's like you know, four states is all you're really having to pay tax in, and then it's like Okay, by March now and it's like twelve and then like boom like you keep reaching these different thresholds. But fr from an accounting standpoint, it's a nightmare the way it's set up. speaker-0: Yeah. Well, I guess ⁓ I one la almost last question, but ⁓ you kind of led into it a little bit is you know, I know you guys give back a lot to a lot of different organizations and a lot of trail different organizations and stuff like that. So I I think a lot of people do it because of tax write-offs and everything. It's what they think companies do. But I know that how how can from your perspective, how can companies give back to help grow their business and to help out? ⁓ those in need or how did you guys figure out what you were gonna give back and and how that kinda helps you guys out as a company? speaker-1: ⁓ so I mean I get this is company dependent on a ph philosophy and I can't necessarily even ⁓ yeah give the f the f the company philosophy from Z Pax, but like as the marketing director I'll give you like where we're at and and it will start with the uncomfortable bits is from a consumer perspective in terms of making or breaking a sale, nobody cares. Yeah. Made in America. People if it says made in America, people, ⁓ I love that it's made in America. But when it comes to putting your money where your mouth is, most people will not pay five percent more for a made in America version versus a made in China version. It's something that makes them feel good if they were fortunate enough to buy something made in America. But they don't care enough with their dollars, with their wallets. ⁓ same th same thing with like giving back initiatives. When we first started our giving back initiatives, we were like you get to choose w who you want to donate to and how much, and we will double match you. And then like for the month of February, we'll triple match you and like all of a sudden and then it was like not a ton of money came in, right? When you were like, ⁓ like like we're willing to double or triple match, like Anything in this like list that you want that like most people weren't weren't doing it. And so we were like we were disappointed in like how that worked out because like we didn't give as much as we wanted to give. We thought we we thought we should be giving more. ⁓ and so I think you gotta do what's right, right in the next. Everybody has a different opinion of that. And so when I sat down and came up with the the list that we're doing now, which is mainly just the the National Scenic Hiking Trails, ⁓ with the exception we have a group ⁓ in Virginia called Beyond Boundaries who takes like ch ⁓ people with disabilities out there. But basically the idea is yeah, the idea really is is like we sell primarily to hikers. Okay. So you have to have somewhere to go. So like donating to organizations that protect and procure public lands because without that you have nowhere to go. Then it comes then then it's ⁓ groups that build trails on these lands. That's where you get the like National Scenic High. Who are the groups building and maintaining these lands? And then what are the groups that are removing the barrier to access to these lands? How can we get the most people out there? Right. So one, you gotta have a place to go. Two, you got like or a place to build a trail and then two, now you need to build a trail and maintain it. Cause like what there was this trail they spent all like years building in Norway and it was like awesome. And then like the second they were done, they're like, Okay, we're done. And then like like two years later it was it disappeared because nobody maintained it. Right. And then three, you need to remove any barrier of entry you can to get people out there to use it. And that's kind of like the right thing. We make our money from selling products to people who are going hiking. So it's like they need a place to go hiking. So let let's preserve our customers' ⁓ joy in where and what they're doing by supporting groups that do that. Now there's a million ways that you could give back. ⁓ and I mean I'm actually a bigger fan of getting your hands actually dirty, like real dirt. ⁓ the easiest thing in the world is to donate a buck or two like whenever you're doing something. But like Going out of your way to like get your hands dirty. I'm gonna go pick up trash or I'm gonna go do do some trail building or you know, go help a organization like Beyond Boundaries, like on a group where like they may need somebody, you know, to help with some of the participants, right? So I I think it's a responsibility. It's kind of gross when a company makes their money off. Especially like and the outdoors makes their money off a certain community or lifestyle and then they don't do anything to preserve or support it. Like right. It's like it's it's it's a little gross. Like you're it's you're you're not giving but you're taking. ⁓ speaker-0: No, that's good. I that's really good advice is giving back to the community that you are serving or that you're ⁓ wanting to serve to serve and and taking taking their money and you're like, hey, and it it you know, it it's not saying you're being selfish by it, but it in in essence you're gonna ha kinda help that cycle of growth by giving back to that community and then in turn they're going to now be able to go and do more and stuff like that. So that's really good. I I just wanted to touch on that 'cause I know you guys I I've never touched on that before on the podcast about companies giving back and someone had asked me as well, like, you know, like how can I give back to the outdoor space or why should I do it? And I, you know, from you know, we do it too. Like I for a wedding business, I we give back to a couple of ⁓ places here in the local area where I live and I'm like, you know, it's a tax write off, but also I care about that ministry or that ⁓ NGO or whatever. So I that's really, really good. speaker-1: knows speaking of the sh like the shirt you're wearing the enlightened equipment, I know that for I'm sure I'm a sure they probably still do it. They all they gave back money to ⁓ like a battered woman shelter because Tim, their owner, that was a ⁓ something near and dear to his heart. So there's like a local sh shelter in their area, yeah, near and dear to the heart, like helping help in the community. And it's like it doesn't have to be outdoor stuff, but like it's you know how I don't know how much they're promoting that. Like we're We got a little thing at the top of our website, but it's not something that it's not about patting ourselves on the back. It's just about doing doing what's right. ⁓ and so I think there's a lot of ways you can do it. speaker-0: Yeah. No, that's good. That's really good. I guess my last question before I go into like the rapid fire round is a kind of an easy question, but w what's the legacy or impact that you guys hope to leave maybe on the outdoor space, you yourself or maybe Joe or just the company as a whole? speaker-1: A legacy. I I think the I think the legacy is right is is making the barrier of entry to the experience as small as possible, right? So it's like, you know, not necessarily in the same vein as the giving back, but it's like if we make if we make it so that sixty-five year old guy used to go backpacking with his kids when he was in his late twenties. can go back out there and do it. Yeah. Because the only reason he stopped was because his knees and his ankles and his back. It's like we've rekindled that joy and given and gave him, you know, peace of mind. Like, you know, you see the mental mental health benefits of being outside, right? So it's like, all right. And then the the the flip side of that is like it doesn't matter necessarily how fast you're going, but like making it so that people can get to to the peak. Yeah. Like easier or or at all. Like right. Some people couldn't do it. Like if you, you know, some people start a trail really overweight and they and like they can't do some s things or something like that. It's like, no or it's maybe super frail or whatever. It's like just making it so that you can enjoy the discipline itself in a way that you might not be able to have enjoyed it without gear that ⁓ is perf can perform like that, you know? Yeah. It's just like the end of the meant the the mental health joy for everyone from like I'm taking my 12 year old daughter on a hike and like she can't carry 70 pounds to like I hey the guy gray beard setting the AT age record at ninety one. He's got a bunch of a bunch of stuff in his bag and that's not a mistake either, right? Yeah. So and nim nimble will nomad before him like carrying our stuff when he set the record ⁓ you know before Greybeard. Well actually Greybeard said it then Nimblewheel broke it. Now Greybeard's re rebreaking it. But yeah, see you can talk from yeah my daughter did the Tour du Mont Blanc when she was seven, the she the day after she turned seven. Right. So so you can you can make something possible for a seven year old and the same philosophy that made it possible and enjoyable for a seven year old speaker-0: ⁓ wow. speaker-1: can make it possible for a ninety-one year old is through hike the AT. Like right? It's like that's really opening up the possibilities and like getting the joys and benefits of the outdoors to peop people who might not have been able to enjoy it or as enjoy it as much. speaker-0: Yeah. No, that's great. That's a that's an awesome answer. I love that answer. Well, thank you. I mean speaker-1: Little long winded, I'm sorry. speaker-0: No, no, that's good. I mean I love it. I mean I've I I always tell people I learned so much just from every aspect of every industry, you know, part of the industry and stuff like that. But had a lot of t ⁓ great insights and I'm sure a lot of people learned a lot. I took a lot of notes. I don't always take a lot of notes, but I took a ton of notes today. ⁓ so I'm gonna go into the rapid fire rounds, just a couple of quick questions for you just to get to know you a little bit more. So ⁓ first question, ⁓ and be before we get into that, if people are looking for ZPACs. you know, where are some places that we can find you guys and ⁓ and stuff like that. speaker-1: Just ZPAX dot com. That's it ⁓ one easy Z PAX dot com. speaker-0: Awesome. Perfect. Okay, so first question is ⁓ Mateo, favorite national park. speaker-1: I mean Glacier was sick. Yeah. speaker-0: Yeah. Okay. ⁓ tent, hammock, or cowboy camping? speaker-1: Okay. Yeah. speaker-0: Then yeah. Yeah. Do you have a favorite brand? I'm just kidding. speaker-1: If ZP if Z Packs didn't exist. speaker-0: ⁓ the the next one is favorite trail snack. speaker-1: Ooh, trail snack. God dunno, it changes. It ch like you know, you get so sick of things. I guess my Sour Patch kids speaker-0: Sour Patch Kids? ⁓ and then what's your worst what's your worst trail snack you've ever tried? Or like you stay away from it? speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ Cliff bars. speaker-0: That's like the fourth person who said cliff bars. I'm I don't want to reach out to Cliff and have them cliff bars and have them on because everybody was like, I hate cliff bars. I just had a new one. I tell people I just had a new one that was like, ⁓ it was at a trade show and they gave it to I was like, ⁓ this has reinvigorated my my feeling for Cliff Bars a little bit. I was like, ⁓ I don't know. speaker-1: They're so rich and thick. And then it's like it's like you stop in the middle of ⁓ hiking and it's like you're probably a little dehydrated, so like your mouth is a little dry. Yeah. And then and then like it takes so much energy to eat one of those things. You're like, just take it's like Yeah, I'm like, this is too much, dude. Just get away from me. Too much. speaker-0: So All right, next is ⁓ coffee or electrolytes on the trail. speaker-1: Electrolytes times two. I'm not even kidding. I double dose my like my water with ⁓ electrolytes. No, I have ⁓ I I tried them once, but no, not really. My I my s my sweat stains on the on my back from the double electrolytes are out of control. But but you know speaker-0: Really? Okay. Do you do Like a s like a salt pillar by the end of yeah. speaker-1: A day. Yeah, but I d I'm not out of electrolytes. speaker-0: Yeah. all right. This one is a little out there, but what's the biggest ⁓ splurge you guys have ever made for your business? speaker-1: The biggest blur I would say one of two things, I'll tell you both. It's when we switched over to an ⁓ ERP Enterprise Resource Planning Software. ⁓ that comes with a hefty yearly bill. and the other thing these things happen pretty close in proximity to each other actually, is when we finally invested into a legitimate cut table. Okay. like cutting table. Like that it was cut by hand. Like literally had patterns, you throw it down on the fabric, trace it out, cut it by hand. ⁓ speaker-0: Is this one laser? speaker-1: No. No. It's not a laser cut. Okay. No, no. It it it's like holds like three different blades. There's all kinds of blades and a pen marker and thing like that. Because I I mean those are yeah. Those are expensive. Both those things. speaker-0: ⁓ yeah. I can I always when I talk to certain industries you have certain huge machines that you just gotta go and and get. I know I I mentioned it just before we got on, but I'm also doing ⁓ factory tours and stuff like that starting ⁓ soon where we'll do like the podcast with people. ⁓ but we'll also go through their factory while we're talking to them. So it gives something visual for, you know, if people are listening right now and they wanna watch it, eventually we're gonna be doing that. And we have a couple lined up right now, ⁓ And side note, are y I know you guys are based in Florida, but do you guys ⁓ make your stuff? This is this could go deep, I guess, but hopefully not. But you know, do you guys make a lot of stuff in Florida or is it ⁓ a little bit of both out of out of a little speaker-1: ⁓ well both and a hybrid. So basic basically traditionally we've made just about everything in house and then like things like trekky poles and umbrellas and stuff like that, obviously we were outsourced. You gotta know what you're good at, what you're not good at. Yeah. ⁓ but no now we have ⁓ certain components of like the high volume sellers we'll we're having outsourced, but we're still doing like final assembly in-house. So it's like now now it's like made assembled in the United States from domestic and imported parts type thing. And like it's very it gets convoluted a little bit. But but basically it's like we're still trying to employ as many ⁓ people here making st ⁓ things and that's what we're doing. Like I like our clothing is almost all outsourced and stuff like that. But when it comes to like the sleeping bags, the backpacks, ⁓ the tents and ⁓ you know, the majority of the accessories. Those those are either f wholly made in the United States or they are assembled in the United States from domestic and imported par ⁓ parts. It's like speaker-0: It's like Apple that always says like ⁓ made in Vietnam but assembled in California. speaker-1: We we rip that off. Yeah, let me see if I could it's it. This is like I don't know, you can read but it's it designed in the USA in China. Yeah. speaker-0: Really? Ha ha ha ha. speaker-1: But it is. It it is. The d the design team is here and this is where we design ever design everything. speaker-0: That's cool. right. Last question. This is always an interesting one to see. ⁓ but if you could collab with any brand, what ⁓ who would it be and why? speaker-1: So this is this maybe this will light a fire. ⁓ so I wanna I wanna do a a collab with Hoka. Okay on a speed goat. And I know people at Hoka and I've been put into touch with the right people at Hoka. Yeah. But ⁓ they're not very good at communicating. Yeah. Is what I would is what I would say. But yeah, yeah. That that's ⁓ Something I'd love to do. They already have like the Z Packs blue that they use in other places. I just think it would be an easy thing to do. And like I don't want to tell you the figure of how many camps shoes we've sold, but it is a lot. Yeah. ⁓ so the our ability to potentially sell like ⁓ I I don't know how many units a collab would require, but like I'm pretty confident we could we could blow through ⁓ that. ⁓ speaker-0: That'd be cool. You need to do like you know how you do funny videos and stuff like that on social. You need to do like one of those funny, like my trail fit video. speaker-1: You know, and you show like dude. So I'll tell you I'll tell I I'll tell you something that is like so rewarding in this particular role. At the at this point when I go out on trail, with the exception of my underwear, I have had either the primary role or a role in designing and creating every single piece of that I'm wearing from like the button up shirt. Yeah. to our trail cool shorts to the socks, ⁓ you know, and even the foldable trail hat. It's like everything I'm wearing except my underwear is like I I had a part in like either like being the lead ⁓ on that project or being, you know, part of the design process. That's awesome. That's pretty sick. Yeah. Like I'm like I'm like, this is awesome. So now I want to get my shoes and then maybe we'll get some underwear. Yeah. speaker-0: That's cool. When are you gonna you're gonna model that on social, right? The underwear? Mm-hmm. speaker-1: Mm. I I'll I'll leave probably not. speaker-0: We'll leave that up to everybody's imagination right now. speaker-1: Yeah. My wife already gives me shit for ⁓ the way I look in the pants. What I'm put ⁓ the rain pants. Yeah. She's like she's like, You could see the outline. I was like, ⁓ you mean I'm just put I was just wearing pants. Yeah. That's awesome. So I don't think I don't think I want to do the other one. She'll give she'll give me the business. speaker-0: Ha ha ha. Awesome. That's cool. Well, I mean, that's a good way to end the podcast is with that visual. And so ⁓ speaker-1: Go to ZPAX.com and look it up. speaker-0: Well, I mean Mateo, thank you so much for your time. I I I really appreciate you taking the time just to kind of let us know a little bit more about the industry, you guys, the you had a the the space that you guys are at and I can't wait to see the things that you guys have in the future. I know that I can't wait to see the underwear. speaker-1: It probably will it probably won. Maybe next year. speaker-0: Yeah. Well awesome. Well everybody, thank you so much for listening this week ⁓ Beyond the Trailhead and we look forward to ⁓ chatting with our next guest. Thanks, Mateo. speaker-1: Yeah, no problem. Thank