Latest / Podcasts By Donna Jodhan / Remarkable World Commentary Episode #51: Interview with Alan Ma, Founder, Toronto Blind Tennis

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Remarkable World Commentary Episode #51: Interview with Alan Ma, Founder, Toronto Blind Tennis · Podcasts By Donna Jodhan

0:13
Podcast Commentator: Greetings. Donna J Jodhan, LLB, ACSP and MBA invite you to listen to her
0:20
biweekly podcast, Remarkable World Commentary here.
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Donna shares some of her innermost thoughts, insights,
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perspectives, and more with her listeners.
0:31
Donna focuses on topics that directly affect the future of kids,
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especially kids with disabilities.
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Donna is a blind advocate, author, site loss coach,
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dinner mystery producer, writer, entrepreneur,
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law graduate, and podcast commentator.
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She has decades of lived experiences, knowledge,
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skills, and expertise in access technology and information.
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As someone who has been internationally recognized for her work and roles,
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she just wants to make things better than possible.
1:07
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Remarkable World Commentary.
1:13
I am Donna Jodhan, a lifelong disability advocate and one who sees the world mainly
1:20
through sound, touch and stubborn optimism.
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I am a law graduate, accessibility consultant,
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author, lifelong barrier buster who also happens to be blind.
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You may know me from a few headline moments, as in November 2010,
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I won the Landmark Charter case that forced the Canadian government to make its websites
1:48
accessible to every Canadian, not just to sighted ones.
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In July of 2019, I call it the Accessible Canada Act.
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With more than two dozen disability groups to turn equal access into federal law and most
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recently on June the 3rd, 2022.
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I was greatly humbled by Her Late Majesty's Platinum Jubilee Award for tireless
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commitment to removing barriers.
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When I'm not in a courtroom or in a committee room or pottery studio,
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you'll find me coaching blind kids with vision,
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kids with vision loss, producing audio mysteries,
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or helping to helping companies to make their gadgets talk back in plain language.
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Everything I do circles one goal to turn accessibility from an afterthought into
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everyday practice. Guess I invite you to think of this show as our shared workbench
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where policy meets lived experience and lived experience sparks fresh ideas.
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Now, before we jump into today's conversation,
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let me shine a quick spotlight on today's guest,
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a change maker whose work is every bit as remarkable as the world that we are trying to
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build. Alan Ma, welcome to my podcast.
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It's a pleasure to have you.
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Alan Ma: Yeah. Thank you. Donna.
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Yeah. I'm not so sure I'm going to be able to live up to the title you just gave me, but I
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appreciate it.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, I've known you since 2012, and I was always impressed by what you
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started up, so let's hear all about it.
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And, Alan, many listeners may not know your origin story.
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You are right. Widely credited with introducing blind and vision impaired tennis
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to Canada in 2011. What first sparked that idea for you and what did those
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earliest months actually look like?
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Alan Ma: Yeah. Thanks, Donna. It is.
4:19
You know what? Thinking all the way back, I still remember I was just coming back from
4:25
working overseas and returned to Canada, and I was watching a BBC.
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Documentary. And it showed me and it was a very quick segment within the,
4:41
the larger one hour program that there were folks in England playing blind tennis.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay.
4:50
Alan Ma: And I credit I believe back then it was Metro.
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Metro sport. And I reached out to them afterwards because I was just astounded.
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I didn't know such a adaptive sport was being played and myself being a tennis lover.
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I'm not I'm not great in tennis, but I can get by coach a bit here and there
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in different communities.
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So I thought, oh, you know what?
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Let me just reach out to them and then do some research around Canada to find out if
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others are already offering this this sport, adaptive sport.
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And I'll go volunteer.
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And so I reached out, you know, simultaneously to UK sports just
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saying, like, oh, this is amazing, blah, blah,
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blah, trying to get an understanding of like, how far the reach where the sport come from
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and at the same time doing my homework in the GTA,
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Greater Toronto Area just reaching out to different blind sporting organizations,
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mainly to start and just asking, oh, do you run this program?
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I'd love to, you know, come and volunteer.
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Wow. Lo and behold, nobody ran it.
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And I kept digging and kept digging.
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And then I asked around Cnib, Canadian Blind Sports,
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Ontario Blind Sports Association.
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Nobody was offering this.
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So that's sort of the Eureka kind of moment for me is to sort of think about,
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you know, what? This doesn't currently exist in Canada.
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How can one, you know, get it started, offer it so that others may
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benefit the sport that I love.
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Right? I mean, I came into the sport really late in my 20s,
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so it's not like I grew up playing tennis.
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You know? I wasn't part of any particular tennis club.
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You know, growing up watching parents play and then getting to know the community that
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way. I was I was I was like you know sort of upstart in the tennis world,
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right? I sort of worked in you know, I coach because I was great with kids.
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So I, you know, during my university days I would coach a lot in different communities
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and that, you know, that love for coaching being able to offer a sport to others and
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being able to offer support, I enjoyed. Right.
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That was the sort of main kind of factors that got me started in just asking questions
7:14
and eventually piloting it.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Great. I first joined the blind tennis group in 2012,
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and I was active through the end of 2016.
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From my vantage point, you and your team built something very
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special. How did Toronto blind tennis move from a small experiment into a sustained
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community program?
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Alan Ma: The sustainability, I think it depends on one's perspective,
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right. Of, you know, I think everything comes in seasons.
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And I think starting out going back a little bit earlier to the origin story you know,
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I waited for about a year and a half to two years of just getting rejected by many,
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many different organizations because I didn't want to just be on my own.
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Right? I wanted to work with another organization,
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partner up. But everyone said no, right.
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And I can understand, you know, the I don't have family members
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with the visually impaired world, so nobody knew who I was.
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Right. So who is this person coming in to say,
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like, we're going to offer a new sport to Canadians,
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right?
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah.
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Alan Ma: Yeah, I can understand and know.
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And people didn't want to take on the liability of that.
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Right. Starting a new program without even knowing who this coach is.
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And also I can understand because having worked in the not for profit charitable
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sector for almost two decades now, it's accessibility.
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Funding is hard to come by, especially when it's in sports.
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Right. So a lot of these established organizations,
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they are already probably pretty tight, right,
9:03
in terms of their funding and to be able to take on additional risk.
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So the sustainability part, I think is always going to be in question for
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us. We were just very blessed with having a very good pool of volunteers who you know,
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came through for different seasons.
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And then once you know, certain percentage of those volunteers wanted
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to move on to other things, we were able to have others join for a couple
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years. Because ultimately it it really doesn't cost that much.
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Right? To run the blind tennis.
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Right? Nowadays it costs more because of just since the pandemic facility costs is just
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much higher. The balls that we buy from Japan.
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They're $11 per ball before shipment and everything,
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so it's quite expensive, but they can last a bit longer than,
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you know what the regular balls we use on the site of tennis courts.
9:58
Right. But sustainability, it was really just,
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you know, having the right group of volunteers who weren't careless with their
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own ego, I would say. Right.
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Because, yeah, we get a lot of folks that want to develop the best player.
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Right. They live sort of vicariously through their players.
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Right. But I think we were able to screen out folks that probably weren't really in line
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with our sort of community aspect of what we were trying to do.
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Right. And then in the beginning, it was really just my own local church that
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said, you know what, Alan? Present the sport to us, the elders. We'll see if it makes
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sense that we can offer this as a sort of loving initiative to the neighbors,
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right?
10:46
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes.
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Alan Ma: And so my local church was the first group that we were able to partner with,
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and it was ran out of the, the, our warehouse kind of gym right where we
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played.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I remember that. Yes.
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Alan Ma: Yeah. We've been there for many years.
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Right. It's only because of the pandemic and things have to shift.
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And we sort of grew and as we were coming out of the pandemic,
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we were able we were fortunate to work with the TDSB to get one of the local gyms in
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Scarborough and they were able to offer it in the beginning free of charge to our program.
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But nowadays they, they charge a small fee for us.
11:26
But still, it is manageable.
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Right. And I think these kind of factors have to sort of all align in order something that,
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you know, we're not striving to make profit, right? So.
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Right. It's not like we're charging the same marketable rate that other folks would spend
11:44
on indoor tennis programs during the winter or the summer.
11:49
Right. In order to keep their programs and services alive.
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So for us, it's a lot of grant writing finding the facilities that are low cost
12:01
accessible for our community and then just finding a great pool of volunteers in Jerome
12:05
since I moved to Montreal.
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Jerome, one of our original volunteers, have taken the mantle,
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and he's one of the co-founders.
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When we incorporated as a not for profit organization that tennis is housed under.
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Right. So I think we're just really blessed to have great people come along the way.
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Right? And who knows what the sustainability,
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you know, in terms of does it go on forever, right?
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I don't know, but for the for the season we're in,
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we're still here. We still have committed volunteers and coaches who are really
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enjoying being part of the community, and the players themselves are enjoying it.
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So yeah, we'll keep on going until we see maybe the end of the tunnel may come some
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day. Some day, but not for now.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right? Right now. Change through sport is the umbrella you co-founded,
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and it now houses the Toronto Blind Tennis and Rexdale Volleyball.
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In practical terms, what problem were you trying to solve with CTS and how does that
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structure help you remove barriers for participants?
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Alan Ma: Yeah, like the organization really came about when my friend and I who's the founder of the
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Rexdale volleyball program in the west side of Toronto He was running.
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He was coaching there. He was a teacher of the TDSB,
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and he was running a volleyball program that was for young people in his the Rexdale
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community where he was teaching.
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And we both were utilizing sports to build community to open up new opportunities to our
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participants. And when the pandemic came and we we chatted about this before the pandemic,
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because by the time we got into, like the shutdowns,
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we both have been running our, you know, volunteer initiatives for close to
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ten years or more than ten years.
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And we said, hey, should we combine forces together?
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Should we take it more seriously and build more infrastructure?
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So that goes to your question about sustainability,
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right? Can we go for it a little bit longer and then have something that we can pass on
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to other people if they want to take up the mantle,
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if our time is going to, you know, come to an end someday.
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So the registering as a not for profit it gave us at least that sort of initial,
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you know, in the world, in the eyes of the world.
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Right? Eyes of the world.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes.
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Alan Ma: These these kind of, you know, structures and registrations,
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things on paper. Right?
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It's like, oh, now you're legitimate. But, you know,
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for ten years before we've been doing this work and,
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you know, volunteering our time and committing ourselves to supporting one
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another. But that became our sort of, like, gateway to a different season for what
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we've been doing. Right. So that now when we do apply for grants,
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it's not just a volunteer group.
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Right? It is a registered organization.
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We have financial records.
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We have this history of work which includes our volunteer days.
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Right. When the two initiatives were just my friend,
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my friend and I leading it and now we've gone into,
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you know, building new partnerships due to being incorporated with different
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organizations in Montreal and also Barrie, Ontario.
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Now just recently this year.
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So we our focus is still pretty much the same as what we did with the Toronto Blind Tennis
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and Rexdale volleyball is to utilize sports to support what we would characterize as more
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vulnerable communities or historically marginalized communities so that they have
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access to sport. And through sport.
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We get to talk about, you know, social development,
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economic development and a bunch of other fun stuff that we can sort of leverage sport for.
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So the first point is still get on court, let's play together,
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let's build community. Yeah, that's the initial sort of premise.
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And then afterwards, then we can do other things.
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And even two years ago.
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Right. We were let's see one of our Rexdale youth and one of our youth.
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We piloted a new project management kind of initiative.
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Right. So where we allow them to have a small budget and we taught them a few things about
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project management, and we let them, you know,
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devise and organize and design a fun community event.
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Right. And the youth from the Blind Side she was excuse me fully blind.
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And she worked with her sighted brother. And together they put on an event of multi sport
17:00
for our community. Right.
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They had a budget. They used the budget to, you know,
17:04
organize what they want to buy for equipment prizes and so on and so forth.
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Right. And the same thing for our Rexdale youth ran something for the Rexdale
17:13
community. So these are sort of like the other steps that probably people don't really
17:19
know as much from what we do with CTS because they engage with us.
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Right. Primarily through sports and playing the sport.
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But behind the scenes, we do a lot of other types of development,
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and we want to continue to sort of flesh that side out as well,
17:35
so that others get more of a stronger sense of how sports can be leveraged for their own
17:43
personal development and, you know, striving for their aspirations in
17:46
life. Right.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So tennis is not the only thing that that you know is here.
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Right.
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Alan Ma: Yeah. We got volleyball from the volleyball side blind tennis.
17:57
And then we, we help support, you know some other provinces to start their
18:00
blind tennis initiatives.
18:02
In Montreal Barrie. We do skating multi sports.
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Yeah. So we, we're not just stuck on one sport.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Any skating.
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Alan Ma: We're not snobs, Donna.
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We're not snobs. We we.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, you're not snobs. I know that I've always known that.
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Any skating in Toronto?
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Alan Ma: Yes, we we piloted it with another organization on the west end of Toronto,
18:25
where we brought a lot of their more black and racialized youth in the winter that,
18:30
you know, sometimes they're a little bit more hesitant in the winter sports.
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Right? So we try to help them or support them in understanding,
18:37
hey, if you're not in that space, you have no voice there,
18:40
right? So if you want to have a voice in, you know,
18:43
Canadian winter sports, or at least you don't want to keep telling
18:46
yourself, oh, winter sports, skiing.
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Skating is not for me. It's not part of my.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah, yeah.
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Alan Ma: You sort of self talk yourself out of them, right?
18:55
So yeah, we ran a pilot together when we first incorporated actually,
18:59
and we took them skating and then we took them into a ski trip,
19:04
so.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, okay.
19:06
Alan Ma: So that was a fun thing. So we used that sort of approach and model,
19:09
and we developed our current partnerships that I have in Montreal as well,
19:13
and the ones in Barrie too.
19:15
So that initial was a skating program in Toronto was almost like a proof of concept
19:20
for us, right, of utilizing the sport.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Great. Now you've trained a large volunteer cohort and welcome dozens of participants
19:33
over the years. What does good volunteer preparation look like for blind tennis,
19:42
and how do you keep volunteers engaged and growing season after season?
19:50
Alan Ma: Yeah, so I want to make sure just for the listeners.
19:52
Right. Yeah. It's not it's not like, you know,
19:55
our volunteers never quit, right?
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They move on. Right. So it's just like, just like any program,
20:01
any different volunteer services.
20:03
Right? Of course. But we've just been really keen on number one for volunteers who don't
20:11
come.
20:12
Screen Reader: From out of left brain.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right.
20:14
Alan Ma: That don't come from a tennis background or rackets.
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Yeah.
20:19
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah.
20:20
Alan Ma: We try to make sure their point of entry is lower too.
20:24
Right. So a lot of initial.
20:27
You don't need to be a certain level to play tennis.
20:31
What we look for is a caring person.
20:34
That's number one. Tennis part.
20:36
We can help you get better.
20:38
And and playing tennis so that you can feel more adequate as you train with our
20:44
participants. Right. So that's number one.
20:46
So we try to take away that initial sort of cloud over somebody.
20:51
Right. And number two, we were very fortunate in the very beginning
20:56
when we ran our pilot in Toronto to have other organizations come in to teach our
21:00
volunteers how to engage with folks who have vision loss.
21:06
So we did a big workshop, and we ran it for the first couple of years,
21:10
every season just to remind, you know, the core group,
21:13
some basic things, right?
21:14
Like, for example, I think these things will always stick with me, right? How to walk with
21:19
somebody?
21:20
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right, right.
21:21
Alan Ma: Right elbow. How to use nonverbal cues with your arm.
21:25
Your speed so that they get a sense of what's coming up and when to speak.
21:29
Like, oh, we're going through a single door right now.
21:31
And then, you know, you tuck in your elbow and then so they know to go, right. Hitting
21:36
certain objects along the way so that they know,
21:39
like a chair leg sticking out in the middle of a hallway and so on and so forth. Right.
21:43
Yeah. And we and we still use though, a lot of that audio cueing.
21:47
Right, for when people get on court.
21:48
Right. We walk you to the baseline, we walk you to the net so you get a sense of
21:52
the distance. We hit the post so that, you know,
21:55
you know, the the width of the net and so on and so forth.
21:58
Right. So those lessons that were passed down to us in those initial blind tennis workshops
22:06
by another organization.
22:07
And I'm sorry, folks who who ever left that organization,
22:11
I just can't I try to look back, but I can't remember who it was.
22:16
But they were so generous by coming to our the church at that time.
22:20
Right. To run the the workshop for us.
22:22
And then we just copied and, you know, added and adjusted what we needed
22:26
for our context to the future volunteers.
22:30
But nowadays, it's like, you know, we have a,
22:33
a lot of institutional memory, right, with different volunteers. So one of
22:37
the main things we do now is actually get them to come out and experience the community
22:42
first. And that's that's actually part of the assessment that we do.
22:46
Right. How do they interact with people?
22:48
Are they warm? Are they inviting?
22:51
Are they a snob? Are they a tennis snob?
22:53
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right. Yes, yes, yes.
22:55
Alan Ma: We want to weed out certain people. Right. And, you know, it's like filling up a form
22:59
and so on and so forth. It never beats, you know,
23:02
really sensing their presence.
23:03
Right. So we do that and we we lower a lot of the sort of initial like,
23:08
you need to sign up for this season if you're going to volunteer for X number of sessions,
23:12
right, come out first, you know.
23:13
Community. Oh, yeah. Get a sense and we will assess you at the same time.
23:18
Right. And then afterwards, if things go well together,
23:23
both from our side and your side.
23:25
Okay. Now, fill up this form, and then we move on to some paperwork.
23:28
Get the police checks done. Right. And then afterwards,
23:31
a little bit more training.
23:32
And then But mostly just learn along the way.
23:35
Right. And then, as we sense that they may be more capable sometimes with the racket,
23:41
maybe you get to engage with more rallying situations with some of the other players.
23:45
Right. So there are different aspects and different roles that different volunteers can
23:51
fulfill. But number one, again, we, we really look for people that are
23:56
that have a caring heart. Right.
23:57
And you can't it's hard to like, act that way and fake.
24:02
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: No you can't.
24:03
Alan Ma: Right. You can do it initially, but, you know, cracks will appear, and then
24:06
that's what we are. You know, our team, you know,
24:11
word gets around, right?
24:13
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah.
24:13
Alan Ma: You get to sit down and say, hey, you know what? This is not for you.
24:17
And this is just not a good fit for our community,
24:20
right? But fortunately, we've we've had very little people that had
24:25
to do that, right? I mean, some people, eventually they they vet
24:28
themselves out, right? Because after having a couple of different conversations with them.
24:32
Right. They just like they know we're on their case.
24:34
So, yeah, they they sort of take themselves out of the equation.
24:39
Yeah. So that's why we try to do our best.
24:41
Back to your main question of how to sort of lower the barrier of entry for the
24:46
volunteers. And then just giving them, excuse me and just asking to write,
24:51
what would you like out of this, this experience. Right. And a lot of them are
24:55
just thrilled, actually being able to be part of an initiative.
24:59
That number one, for those who come from a tennis world,
25:02
share the sport. Right?
25:04
Number two, for those who come from maybe different kind of backgrounds,
25:08
not necessarily tennis related.
25:10
Many of them feedback.
25:11
Many of the feedback is they just love the community, right? They just love being able
25:15
to engage with different people volunteer their time in a place where they find,
25:20
you know, has impact, right.
25:23
So those are generally the, the, the feedback and comments we give.
25:28
There are hopefully, maybe when we get stronger financially.
25:32
Right. And we as we continue to build up CTS,
25:34
we can offer more developmental pathways to, for the volunteers,
25:37
right. Should that be something that they're interested in?
25:41
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So it's a lot more than tennis.
25:43
And it's a step by step approach, right?
25:45
Alan Ma: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. And sometimes you take a few steps back. Right. Different variables
25:49
happen and you just find different ways to make sure the core elements,
25:53
right are are maintained and you stick you stay close to your mission.
25:57
Right.
25:59
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So accessibility is more than equipment.
26:03
It's culture. It's logistics And design.
26:08
Walk us through a typical session, from newcomer intake and orientation to the
26:16
way that you structure drills, to the cues that you give volunteers,
26:23
so that blind and low vision players feel safe,
26:27
confident and challenged.
26:30
Alan Ma: Yeah, yeah. I mean, for us as a as a big learning curve,
26:35
right.
26:37
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah.
26:37
Alan Ma: There weren't any other, you know, blind tennis programs we can visit
26:42
in Canada. So a lot of the technical know how we had to learn by,
26:49
you know, getting information when I reached out to UK.
26:51
And then later on, they introduced me to Ayako who was,
26:56
I believe she was one of the original, maybe the teacher guy who was the person who
27:04
founded blind Blindness in Japan in 1984.
27:07
Oh, he's passed on since then.
27:09
But the teacher, Ayako, is still involved in the International Blind
27:13
Tennis Association. So I was put in touch to her through the UK group.
27:19
And, you know, just trying to learn from afar.
27:24
And back when we first started video, YouTube was,
27:29
you know, starting to get a little bit more use.
27:32
So they had post whatever footages that they had back,
27:37
and at least that gave me a visual reference of,
27:40
okay, all right. I see how they've sort of set this up the spacing and learning the very
27:47
unique scooping motion, right.
27:49
For a lot of the B1 to B3 players.
27:51
Right. And so the learning for the adaptive sport came through those
28:01
initial kind of exchanges.
28:03
Changes. But for us, it was really just learning on the on the go to.
28:06
Right. And one of our big philosophies and Jerome does this amazingly is that.
28:12
Ask questions. Ask lots of questions.
28:14
Right. And be attentive.
28:16
And try not to have a lot of our sort of sighted biases take over.
28:23
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: All right? Yes, yes, I understand.
28:26
Yeah.
28:26
Alan Ma: I mean, we were told during our initial training when we first got started,
28:33
and it's always a good reminder, you know, you can't just say,
28:38
come over here or stand over there.
28:40
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes.
28:42
Alan Ma: Look at me. Right.
28:43
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah, look at me.
28:44
Alan Ma: No, those.
28:44
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Things.
28:45
Alan Ma: Don't have a strong reference or at all any reference for somebody who may be visually
28:50
impaired.
28:50
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right, right, right.
28:52
Alan Ma: So there was a lot of figuring out, okay, what audio cues would make sense.
28:59
And it was a lot of feedback.
29:00
Right. We would ask questions.
29:01
Hey, Donna. So I want you to stand with your legs crouched and observe.
29:07
Right. Is it? Yeah, yeah.
29:09
That description give you enough.
29:11
And then if not right, I.
29:12
Maybe you remember. I would say it's okay.
29:15
Donna. Excuse me. I'm going to bend my knees now,
29:18
and I want you to put your hands on my knees and you'll get,
29:20
like, a sense of the angle, right, of how I'm crouched right now.
29:24
And.
29:24
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Boy, do I remember all those days.
29:27
Alan Ma: Yeah. I'll be your ready position.
29:28
Right.
29:29
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah.
29:30
Alan Ma: So there's a lot of that accommodations in terms of learning to coach in a different
29:37
way. Right? Yeah. And as you were within your question.
29:42
Right. For different players, it's all different,
29:45
right? There's a general principle, right, that we're going to do a lot of
29:49
questioning Q and Q and A back and forth.
29:51
Right. And there's a general approach to how you would do the scooping motion.
29:55
Right. But if somebody has has an injury, right?
30:00
And there are certain motions that they can't.
30:03
For example, if you remember, the crushing motion requires you to bend your
30:07
back. Right? And your knees.
30:08
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes. Yes.
30:09
Alan Ma: And that can be quite tiring over like long rallies and durations,
30:13
right? Especially when you're really trying to focus on hitting the ball and moving your
30:17
body to cut off the path of the ball.
30:18
Right. So adaptations get a longer racquet so the player doesn't have to bend their backs
30:27
as much, but there's a trade off, right?
30:29
Of all kind of things.
30:30
Longer racquet means less, you know, sensitivity to the ball because
30:35
you're now further away from your hand.
30:37
Right? Yeah. The closer you are to touching the the sort of face of the racquet where the
30:42
strings are, the more feel you get, right of sensing the,
30:45
the ball on the strings when they, when you meet it. Right. So different trade
30:49
offs for different you know, situations.
30:52
But the Q&A is where we're we'll be asking, hey,
30:55
Donna, we're going to let's let's try with a longer racquet.
30:58
And then you let me know if you prefer this one.
31:00
Right. But maybe we won't hit the ball as frequently.
31:04
Right? And so that allows us to approach the development of each of the participants in
31:14
different ways. And sometimes, you know maybe the shuffle step doesn't work
31:21
well, right? So we have to do more like a one footed,
31:26
open open step. And maybe we just need to think of it as.
31:32
Okay, so if the shuffle step isn't going to work well in this situation,
31:36
maybe this person will have to play doubles more as opposed to singles,
31:40
right? Because if you just open, you open your one foot one way,
31:43
you can probably just make it across two steps quickly.
31:46
Right. And you're going to, you know, lose a little bit of your momentum
31:49
afterwards. Right. Because it's a more explosive step.
31:52
Right. So anyways, you know different ways of I would,
32:00
I would like to imagine even when I coach with,
32:04
you know, folks with different abilities, I mean,
32:07
in, for example, in Montreal, we had we were working with refugees
32:10
claimants. And one is so unfortunate, one of the girls had her two legs amputated.
32:18
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, no.
32:19
Alan Ma: We were, like, messaging different Paralympic athletes skating worlds to figure out what
32:26
type of skates would be conducive that can hold her weight.
32:29
Right. And allow her to enjoy a little bit of that joy of gliding on ice.
32:36
Right. And so we adapted.
32:38
Right. And there's a lot of different thinking and asking the questions.
32:43
Right. And getting feedback so that we can use that information from the participants to
32:46
say, okay, so let's if if it is hurting this way,
32:50
let's think of a different way to alleviate that first sort of barrier.
32:53
Right? We definitely don't want people playing blind tennis or skating or playing
32:56
volleyball to have pain, right?
32:58
That beats the pleasure of playing sports.
33:01
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes.
33:02
Alan Ma: So so with the blind tennis, we were just learning along the way.
33:05
And just like our other sports figuring out what may work for certain individuals and for
33:11
the large, for the larger extent, what approach,
33:14
what principles would work?
33:17
Well, generally. And then finding small adjustments and adaptation so that the
33:25
participant has the best experience that they can have.
33:27
Right? And sometimes the sport isn't that that that important to them?
33:32
For them it's the community. So ensuring that,
33:35
for example, we have plenty of tea and and water time so that participants.
33:40
Yes with volunteers and people can chat.
33:42
Right. Yeah. It's not just about hey, get back on court,
33:45
Donna. Right. We're gonna go to the Paralympics.
33:48
What are you doing? Right.
33:49
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, Lordy.
33:50
Alan Ma: So we really config based on, you know, the wands and the desires of our
33:55
participants. Right. So I think those more human aspects of coaching and accommodations
34:05
should be considered, I think.
34:07
And it's not just the technical aspects of how do you hold a racket if you can't see.
34:11
Right. Yeah. Those things we can get around by feel eventually.
34:15
Right. But I think it's for me, for us, it's a it's a sort of like a larger
34:20
understanding of why we exist.
34:22
What do people really want out of the experience and engagement?
34:26
And how can we keep the core principles and our approaches to teaching,
34:31
but find ways to incrementally improve the experience and adjust and accommodate based
34:38
on, you know, particular needs of each person?
34:41
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think when I come back to blind tennis, I'm going to have to start all over,
34:46
you know that.
34:47
Alan Ma: You know what? It's just like riding a bike. Donna. Come on.
34:50
Everyone starts over every season.
34:53
Everyone will miss. Everyone will have their glory moments here and there.
34:56
And then there's a lot of, you know, just like every sport, right? You
34:59
got to pick up the balls.
35:01
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Now you starting back indoors in early November,
35:04
right?
35:05
Alan Ma: Yeah, yeah. So we got the gym again in Scarborough this season.
35:08
Jerome will be and Jerome is a trooper.
35:11
This this this gentleman does not want to take a break between.
35:14
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: No, no.
35:15
Alan Ma: Season to the indoor season.
35:17
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah.
35:17
Alan Ma: Goodness. But yeah, we got a gym space again from the TDSB.
35:22
And we'll be out in Scarborough this year.
35:24
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: What? What date? Do you have a date?
35:26
Alan Ma: Yep. So we're we're sticking to our yeah.
35:30
Twice a month on the Friday evenings.
35:33
We find that is, you know, not too taxing and it gives some variety to
35:37
other participants between gold ball skiing.
35:41
Oh, yeah, and those who are still running in the winter. Right.
35:44
Yeah. Blind hockey, of course.
35:46
And there's blind soccer now, right?
35:48
So that's how it's called.
35:49
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Good lord.
35:50
Alan Ma: In Mississauga, I think.
35:52
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah.
35:53
Alan Ma: But it just I like part of our hope, right?
35:57
Is always we would wish that, you know, every segment of society gets to
36:05
have just as much opportunities as, you know,
36:07
like, for example, if I choose the sighted world.
36:09
Right? So if there are, you know, over 200 clubs,
36:13
sighted tennis clubs in Toronto, and we're the only blind tennis initiative,
36:18
it's sort of like it sort of sucks that everyone has to travel so far.
36:23
Just.
36:23
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah.
36:24
Alan Ma: Blind tennis. And so this OTF grant that we got this past year is us building up a
36:31
resource and just allowing other folks around the city,
36:35
at least to start. Right.
36:37
And Toronto to get an understanding of.
36:39
Oh, it's not that hard to actually add, you know,
36:42
some blind tennis equipment if there is folks with visual impairment in your neighborhood.
36:47
And now they can access your site, the club. Right.
36:49
Play on the same courts as you.
36:51
So that's part of our hope that the the module,
36:53
the resource we're building up will be utilized.
36:56
And we've visited, you know, different places throughout the summer.
37:02
And some are sounds like some may, may have some buy in.
37:05
Right. We'll see. I'm not gonna say their names yet. These clubs,
37:08
but maybe in the future after going through some of the workshops with us,
37:12
they would like to offer unique opportunities for those who may have vision loss in their
37:17
neighborhood and come to play tennis at their clubs.
37:20
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Wow. Now, your Toronto program has helped sister efforts in Montreal.
37:30
Right. And New Glasgow, what did you learn about replication and what
37:38
must stay consistent and what needs to flex for local context.
37:46
Alan Ma: Yeah, I'll probably answer this in different ways.
37:50
So I would say, number one, our principle is not to own those programs.
37:55
They're not like if I want to talk to more corporate terms,
37:58
they're not our assets.
37:59
Right.
37:59
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay.
38:00
Alan Ma: We want others to take the sport just like any sport,
38:05
and feel that they can mold it and they can teach it.
38:08
They can improve it the way that fits their community.
38:11
Right? So for us, it started with just other people getting wind of what we've been doing.
38:16
So Quebec blind sports came down.
38:22
And they visit our program somewhere, I think like 2016,
38:25
some somewhere then and then afterwards, lo and behold,
38:28
they started their own sound tennis program, and it runs to this day.
38:31
And I visited them. So in Montreal I would say the last time I visited they told me they
38:39
had very little B1 players.
38:41
So we in Toronto is the opposite.
38:44
We have a large contingent of B1, B2 players.
38:46
Right. Okay. And we've had the I don't know what specifically.
38:54
Maybe the type of willingness to go through this is difficult to get somebody to get to
39:02
that rally stage. Right?
39:04
So we had the sort of personnel to want to go and continue to work on that.
39:10
And maybe it's also a bunch of the B1 players are all friends,
39:15
so they like coming together. Maybe that's that's part of the reason. So I can see
39:19
variation in differences.
39:22
So they in Montreal, they have a lot more of the higher sighted players playing the sport
39:30
less so of the completely blind B1 to B2 levels.
39:35
In Coquitlam. It's been a long time.
39:38
So I went over there for work, and then I took a few days off to visit their
39:41
program and train the volunteers.
39:45
But they went on their own.
39:46
We gave them the contacts. They purchased their own balls. Actually,
39:49
same for the Montreal group, too, right?
39:51
And Coquitlam, that was ran out of a club when it first started.
39:55
And then eventually they got support from the BC Blind Sports Association.
40:00
So now it's a host under the the governing body.
40:04
So they still run it, but I think part of their I guess with any
40:09
initiative. Right. I think they might be having a hard time finding the returning
40:16
volunteers to come back again and again.
40:18
Keep going. Right. And because they're in Coquitlam,
40:21
they're a little bit further away from, you know, your downtown area.
40:25
So a lot of the players it takes a long time to trek over there.
40:29
So maybe they just the location itself.
40:33
I'm not quite sure. But I hope that they'll continue.
40:40
And New Glasgow. That was a very brief one.
40:42
We don't really have because that was a city initiative that came to us that said,
40:47
hey, we're thinking about.
40:48
And that was done during the pandemic finding a sport for visually impaired community that
40:54
doesn't have to force them to come into contact.
40:57
Right.
40:58
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right.
40:59
Alan Ma: Catch Covid back then. And it was the early stages when all the shutdowns were happening.
41:03
So they were looking for different sports that can keep folks active.
41:06
And so we gave them the contacts, helped them get connected with the
41:09
manufacturers in Japan to get them the ball so that at least the participants can throw
41:15
the ball at the wall. And they can purchase the racket and they have enough space.
41:20
They can sort of rally against the wall.
41:23
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right?
41:23
Alan Ma: Don't really know how far they've moved on from that.
41:27
And then Alberta reached out to us a little bit just to learn about the sport.
41:33
Not quite sure if they've started anything yet. But these are.
41:37
We weren't. We're not trying to control, you know,
41:39
the their development right there, how they built up the program up there out of
41:45
our jurisdiction. And we want to also respect,
41:47
you know, different, different visionaries, you know,
41:50
folks that want to initiate it.
41:53
And we don't want to inundate them with, like, this is how we do it.
41:55
So you better do it the way we did it. Right?
41:58
Yeah. We don't want any of that kind of type of strings attached.
42:02
Right. We're just happy that they're interested and that another province may have
42:09
this opportunity for the visual visually impaired community to try to support.
42:13
Right, as opposed to just hearing it from through their contacts of gold ball blind
42:18
hockey and different sports.
42:20
Right? Oh, yeah. There was that program in Toronto, right?
42:23
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes.
42:24
Alan Ma: Yep. Yeah. So so that's my way of answering your question.
42:27
It's not it's not really like our focus to scale.
42:30
Right. That's not we're actually hoping to just motivate and encourage others to
42:35
essentially utilize your existing resource.
42:38
You just need to open the doors, the balls.
42:41
Yeah, you need to pay a little bit more than,
42:45
you know, regular sized tennis balls.
42:48
But it's worth it if your community is really interested in getting more active and having
42:52
more variations of sports available to them.
42:55
Right.
42:57
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Can you tell me what is the difference between a B1 player and a B2 player?
43:03
Alan Ma: Yeah. So it's it's a way that the folks who design the sport try to make the sport more
43:11
accessible. So the B1 players they would typically so the B1 sorry,
43:18
the B classifications are mainly used I think to my knowledge with the sports.
43:22
Right. The Paralympic sports, I think B3 is usually the highest category
43:26
but non sort of official sports they'll use all the way up to B5.
43:32
B5 has the most amount of site left for the participant.
43:35
B1 has their legally blind.
43:39
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Totally blind.
43:40
Alan Ma: Legally blind. So each levels would have different set of rules,
43:45
right? For play. So B1 player will get a maximum of three bounces before the point is
43:54
over, right? So bounces a fourth time on your side of the court,
43:58
then you lose the point.
44:01
Whereas initially, as you go up the different levels,
44:04
you have less and less bounces.
44:06
But for context, and in the module that we're putting together,
44:10
we actually just encourage like if you're a community that just wants to get people
44:14
playing, don't be so fixated on the sport.
44:16
I mean, the rules. Sorry, but use unlimited bounces,
44:21
right? Get them to get out there.
44:22
Just chase after the ball.
44:25
Like get their body acclimatized to the audio cues.
44:28
Right. And how to move to cut off the path of the ball.
44:31
Incoming ball. Right. So the different levels would have different rules,
44:35
different core sizes, different number of bounces.
44:38
It's just to hopefully in competition.
44:40
Right. Make the sport still enjoyable.
44:43
But yet you know for sport to compete you need to have rules.
44:47
And you want to have different levels for different abilities,
44:52
right? So that's I imagine that's the way that they designed those rules and those
44:57
bounces initially.
45:00
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Do you have a large group in Toronto?
45:02
Alan Ma: I would say it's relatively the same. Because it's also the amount of facilities we have,
45:08
right? The number of courts that we can put up.
45:10
So if we have way more than capacity than a lot of the players are just sitting waiting.
45:17
Right. And that's and a two hour slot, you, you want to come out and you want to
45:22
especially if you want to come exercise. Right. You want to sweat out there.
45:26
Right. So now anywhere between 6 to 8 participants is usually where we feel
45:30
comfortable rotating players on and off court so that they're not sitting for too long.
45:35
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right?
45:37
Alan Ma: This year we're able to get both the spaces at the school.
45:40
So the, the, both the gym.
45:42
So maybe we'll be able to have more players rotate on.
45:45
Sorry. Have, have less downtime sitting.
45:48
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right, right.
45:50
Alan Ma: But I mean, for those who come out to socialize and chit chat,
45:53
I mean that that's makes it easier on our logistics.
45:56
Right? So. Yeah. Right.
45:58
But for those who really want to come out to get a good sweat and play and hit the ball
46:01
and have many rallies I mean, the, the, the two gyms this year would give
46:06
us a little bit more freedom to rotate in different ways and of course,
46:09
to match up people of different abilities too.
46:11
Right. So they maybe some of the more competitive ones wants to play a little bit
46:16
more, longer rallies. Right.
46:17
So then they can either hit with a side of coach or other folks if it happens that day
46:23
other higher level players are there, and they can be matched up for longer times,
46:27
right?
46:28
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I guess things have changed a lot since I stopped going so many years ago,
46:32
right?
46:34
Alan Ma: I would say the core core of what we do is still the same.
46:38
We still really do, you know individualize the approach for each participant.
46:44
But yeah, the I would say some of the folks have changed,
46:47
but we still have some folks that came in that early 20,
46:51
20, 2011. They're still with us.
46:54
Right. So some folks are still playing the whole time.
46:58
And it's good to see the community continue to build and flourish in different ways.
47:06
And for us to just have a time that we can laugh and hit and sweat and,
47:11
you know, enjoy the sport.
47:13
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Yeah. I see my clock is starting to wind down,
47:17
but I wanted to ask you this question.
47:20
The 2025 outdoor season ran at the Iroquois Tennis Club in Scarborough.
47:28
Alan Ma: Yes.
47:29
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: With RSVP based attendance.
47:34
How do partnerships with clubs work and what should facility managers know if they want to
47:41
open their doors to inclusive programs like yours?
47:46
Alan Ma: Yeah I think for I'll speak to the, the second part.
47:50
If you operate a facility, if you're a site,
47:53
a tennis club per se. Yeah.
47:55
It really doesn't take much.
47:57
Right. You already have the facility.
47:59
You just need to get the balls and you can purchase them from the states if you want
48:03
them closer by. Or get the ones that we use in Japan.
48:07
We can help facilitate that conversation.
48:09
Put you in touch with the right personnel.
48:12
If you're already a tennis club, I would imagine you have different sizes of
48:15
rackets available. You'll probably have the mini nets as well as your,
48:20
you know, typical nets all set up.
48:23
So you have the facility.
48:25
The next is probably. Get in touch with us.
48:28
Or take a look later on when we release the module,
48:30
when it's all we package it all together so that you get a sense of how you would,
48:35
you know, walk someone through the initial stages of getting them to play different
48:39
drills that we have to, you know, first work on the audio cue and
48:43
then you, as a coach or a volunteer will get a sense of,
48:46
okay, this can work this drill.
48:50
I can progress it now, right, to different elements.
48:53
So get in contact with us to get the balls or research yourself.
48:59
And then for the actual teaching of the sport,
49:02
like, you can always reach out to us or watch the module to get started.
49:06
And there are other content available online from Australia,
49:09
from UK, from the US, right, of how to go about initially getting
49:13
the sport started. So content is available.
49:16
It really doesn't take much.
49:18
I think it just takes a little bit of openness willingness that people may play a
49:25
little bit differently at your club or your facility.
49:29
And to be able to embrace it right altogether.
49:32
So that would be my sort of spiel to them right now.
49:37
What's your initial part of the question, Donna?
49:40
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I just wanted to know, like.
49:43
No, I even forget.
49:44
Alan Ma: How it got started, right? Yeah, yeah.
49:46
So it was coming out of the pandemic. One of our players lives right next to Iroquois
49:50
Tennis Club in Scarborough.
49:52
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay?
49:52
Alan Ma: She was the one who mentioned to us.
49:54
Hey, Alan. Jerome, why don't we just go over there and talk to them?
49:58
And I think this should go.
50:03
This should be a learning lesson for everyone out there thinking of doing,
50:07
like changing the world, you know, always starts with one
50:10
conversation, one person at a time.
50:13
Right. And you never know where it will take you.
50:15
So it didn't require her to fill out, you know,
50:19
some form or didn't didn't require her to go check in with her legal counsel to come up
50:26
with an agreement. You know, all the stuff that we I think a lot of people
50:29
think they need to have all their ducks lined up in order to do something,
50:33
right. No, it starts with a conversation. Is there interest? Would you be interested?
50:37
I'm part of this blind tennis group in Toronto.
50:39
We're looking for a place to play.
50:41
Once. You know, the pandemic allows us to play with your club.
50:47
Be interested in hosting us.
50:48
Right. Basically started with that. And then the president of that club said okay,
50:54
I'll be interested. So we got together and chatted and we experimented and we found a
50:58
time slot that would be would work to have a external group come in.
51:04
Right. So it really depends on, I think, each location,
51:09
each community. If we were like, for example,
51:12
one other club that we did, a workshop, they're really interested in
51:15
doing it, but they have a gigantic wait list of memberships,
51:19
so they do figure out how to carve out specific time and make it like a special
51:24
initiative, right? So that people on the wait list to their club don't complain and
51:29
complain saying, hey, why would you let new members come in? I've
51:31
been on this list. I'm next in line for next year at least,
51:34
right? So there are different politics, different procedures for different places.
51:39
But I would say start with a conversation.
51:41
If you are a a parent with a child who has visual impairment or you're a friend or
51:50
neighbor or you yourself want to play tennis in your own community,
51:54
right? Just like our our our participant, she she just walked over to the club and
51:58
walked. She walked over with her kids or walked over with her husband,
52:02
but she walked over and knocked on the door, basically. Can I speak to someone? Right.
52:06
Wow. You guys, would you folks be interested in something like this?
52:10
Right? So timing works, right?
52:13
I I'm sorry. Timing, I think, is specific. You need to probably find the
52:16
right person to talk with.
52:19
But I think the lesson learned that that I took away from being rejected for a year and
52:24
a half to two years. Right.
52:26
You know, if it's worth it, don't give up.
52:29
Right. You just need to probably find the right people to work together with.
52:34
Right. It may take time.
52:36
You might have disappointments along the way, but once you get in the door and you have
52:41
your chance to speak. Really, I think show what you're about,
52:45
right? And you know, those conversations they take off.
52:51
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think just listening to you, it's so you you break it down into such
52:55
simple terms. It's all about common sense.
52:58
It's all about a willingness not to give up.
53:01
And these are very, very vital lessons for all of us to learn.
53:07
Alan Ma: But, you know, and I think this goes into your piece about,
53:10
you know, making the world more accessible for everyone, right?
53:13
Yeah, it's common sense.
53:14
You need to look at your. You're gonna. If you can't see right,
53:16
sense your neighbor what they're about.
53:19
Yeah. What do they what are they after in life.
53:21
Well does it match with something that you can have common ground with.
53:25
And then if so, can you share that passion?
53:27
Can you share that opportunity together?
53:29
And you make do right.
53:31
It doesn't need to be so full of jargon, doesn't need to be so full of policy.
53:34
Right? That high level stuff I think can help encapsulate,
53:39
you know, larger demographics altogether when we're governing,
53:43
when we're, you know, mobilizing large amounts of money.
53:46
But we don't need to get there. Your folks are just getting started, right? One
53:50
conversation at a time, one person at a time.
53:53
And then just hopefully the timing matches with you meeting the right person.
53:58
Right.
54:00
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You are a definite change maker, and I want to thank you for having come on to
54:04
my interview, my podcast.
54:06
Sorry. Come back anytime if ever you want to share anything with our listeners?
54:11
Please get in touch with me.
54:15
I keep promising Jerome that I'm going to return,
54:17
but I have to keep this promise.
54:19
Or else he'll just laugh every time I tell him that.
54:22
Right? He won't believe me.
54:23
So I got to show up in early November, right?
54:27
Alan Ma: Well, he'll be he'll be there with open arms.
54:32
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Alan, thank you so much for this.
54:34
This coming on to my my podcast.
54:37
And, hey, keep on going.
54:39
Don't give up.
54:40
Alan Ma: Yeah. Thank you Donna, I really appreciate it. Thank you for the
54:42
invitation. We'll definitely chat soon again.
54:45
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. You take care now.
54:46
Okay. Bye bye. Bye.
54:52
Podcast Commentator: Donna wants to hear from you and invites you to write to her at Donna at gmail.com.
54:58
Until next time.