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Dire Wolf Brought Back? The Wild Science and Ethics of De-Extinction · How To Protect The Ocean

• 0:00
  Did a company bring back the direwolf?
• 0:03
  Is it de-extincted, I
• 0:05
  guess is the question.
• 0:06
  That's the big
• 0:06
  question around everything.
• 0:08
  And I know you're thinking, Andrew,
• 0:09
  this is an ocean podcast.
• 0:10
  Like why are we
• 0:11
  talking about wolves in this?
• 0:13
  Well, one, wolves are cool.
• 0:14
  We always love to talk about that.
• 0:16
  I'm a Game of Thrones fan.
• 0:17
  So dire wolves, obviously a great topic
• 0:19
  to discuss on an ocean podcast.
• 0:21
  But what we're gonna
• 0:21
  be talking about today
• 0:23
  on this episode is we're gonna be looking
• 0:24
  at the questions surrounding like
• 0:27
  bringing back species.
• 0:29
  Is it a good idea to do it?
• 0:30
  First of all, de-extinct, is
• 0:31
  it an actual direwolf species?
• 0:33
  And what are the
• 0:34
  implications for the ocean?
• 0:36
  That's what we're gonna be
• 0:37
  talking about on today's episode
• 0:38
  of the How to Protect the Ocean podcast.
• 0:40
  Let's start the show.
• 0:45
  Hey everybody, welcome
• 0:46
  back to this exciting episode
• 0:47
  of the How to Protect the Ocean podcast.
• 0:49
  I'm your host, Andrew Lewin.
• 0:50
  And this is the
• 0:50
  podcast where you find out
• 0:51
  what's happening with the ocean,
• 0:52
  how you could speak up for the ocean
• 0:54
  and what you can do to
• 0:55
  live for a better ocean
• 0:56
  by taking action.
• 0:57
  On today's episode, we
• 0:59
  have a great one for you.
• 1:00
  We have Dr. Gabby Monstrum-Monaco
• 1:03
  who is here today from the Toronto Zoo.
• 1:05
  She is the chief scientist at the zoo
• 1:08
  and she's also in charge of
• 1:09
  the cryogenic bank at the zoo
• 1:12
  where they actually
• 1:13
  have sperm and embryos
• 1:15
  from over 400
• 1:17
  different species of animals
• 1:18
  that are at the zoo
• 1:19
  and outside of the zoo
• 1:21
  to help preserve genetic diversity.
• 1:23
  Now I asked her on the
• 1:24
  podcast not only to talk about that
• 1:25
  because it works well
• 1:27
  with the direwolf thing
• 1:28
  because we're talking about genetics,
• 1:29
  but I wanted to get her opinions,
• 1:32
  her scientific opinions
• 1:33
  about what has happened
• 1:35
  with this news about bringing back
• 1:37
  and de-extincting the direwolf.
• 1:39
  Is it a direwolf?
• 1:41
  Is it considered a direwolf?
• 1:42
  And why are scientists
• 1:43
  so obsessed about saying,
• 1:45
  "Hey, you know what? It's not a direwolf.
• 1:47
  Why are we so worried about that?"
• 1:48
  And also it doesn't matter
• 1:49
  when the whole context of things.
• 1:51
  Then we're gonna ask the question,
• 1:53
  "Hey, what are the
• 1:54
  implications for conservation?
• 1:56
  Are they actually gonna
• 1:56
  release these species?
• 1:57
  What if they get out from
• 1:59
  their enclosure right now?"
• 2:00
  We're talking about
• 2:01
  wooly mammoths coming back.
• 2:03
  There's a lot of
• 2:04
  questions that we have to answer
• 2:05
  and I wanted to get Gabby on
• 2:06
  because she has the
• 2:07
  expertise to talk about.
• 2:08
  She has the knowledge of this.
• 2:10
  She's done read the papers.
• 2:11
  She's written papers.
• 2:12
  And I think it's really
• 2:12
  important that we get somebody
• 2:13
  with the expertise on the
• 2:15
  podcast to talk about it.
• 2:16
  So that's what we're
• 2:17
  gonna be talking about today.
• 2:18
  I can't wait for you to
• 2:19
  listen to this interview
• 2:20
  with Dr. Gabby Mastrovodico
• 2:21
  from the Toronto Zoo.
• 2:23
  Enjoy and I will talk to you after.
• 2:25
  Hey Gabby, welcome to the How
• 2:26
  to Protect the Ocean podcast.
• 2:28
  Are you ready to talk about
• 2:29
  genetics and de-extinction?
• 2:31
  Hi Andrew. Yes, I am.
• 2:33
  Thank you for having me here today.
• 2:35
  You bet. Now this is a lot of fun.
• 2:37
  This is the first time I've had, Gabby.
• 2:39
  This is the first time
• 2:39
  I've had you on this podcast,
• 2:41
  but we have a bit of a history.
• 2:43
  I interviewed you for
• 2:44
  the Wild4Life podcast,
• 2:45
  the Toronto Zoo podcast
• 2:46
  a couple of years ago.
• 2:48
  That was a lot of fun.
• 2:49
  We talked about what a little bit
• 2:50
  of what we're gonna
• 2:51
  be talking about today,
• 2:52
  talking about the Toronto
• 2:53
  Zoo's work with the cryogenics lab
• 2:55
  and the work with
• 2:55
  preserving genetic diversity
• 2:58
  and in some cases producing animals
• 3:00
  from in vitro fertilization.
• 3:01
  We're gonna talk about your work on that
• 3:03
  because it's groundbreaking.
• 3:05
  It's a lot of fun to talk about,
• 3:06
  but I asked you on the podcast today
• 3:07
  because obviously the
• 3:09
  news has been flooded
• 3:11
  with this idea of de-extinction
• 3:14
  and with these dire wolves or gray wolves
• 3:17
  that have been genetically altered,
• 3:18
  however you wanna see it,
• 3:19
  however it's been presented,
• 3:21
  has just dominated
• 3:22
  the news in a news cycle
• 3:24
  that's been pretty bleak
• 3:25
  lately with the economy
• 3:26
  and everything like that.
• 3:27
  So it really brought attention.
• 3:29
  It's a topic of a lot of conversation
• 3:31
  among scientists and among the public.
• 3:32
  So what I wanted to do is have you once
• 3:34
  is you have such a great
• 3:36
  experience in this research area
• 3:39
  and I want to get your thoughts on the
• 3:41
  idea of de-extinction
• 3:42
  and of course,
• 3:43
  repopulation of these animals
• 3:45
  that have been coming into play.
• 3:47
  So we're gonna talk all about that,
• 3:49
  which I can't wait to get into.
• 3:50
  But before we do, Gabby,
• 3:51
  can you just let us know
• 3:52
  who you are and what you do?
• 3:55
  Absolutely.
• 3:56
  So I'm Gabby Master Monaco.
• 3:57
  I'm the chief science
• 3:58
  officer at Toronto Zoo
• 4:01
  and also the
• 4:02
  reproductive biologist for the zoo.
• 4:05
  So I'm in this really unique
• 4:07
  and lucky privileged position
• 4:09
  where I not only get to focus on the
• 4:12
  reproductive science
• 4:13
  that had been done at the zoo,
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  but my position has grown a little bit
• 4:17
  to look over all the sciences.
• 4:19
  So animal wellbeing,
• 4:21
  health, welfare, nutrition,
• 4:24
  and of course
• 4:25
  reproduction and the field teams,
• 4:27
  the species recovery teams.
• 4:29
  So because it's working
• 4:30
  together that we can do good things.
• 4:33
  And this is what I love about the zoo.
• 4:35
  When I started podcasting for you guys,
• 4:38
  I really learned about that
• 4:40
  the zoo is not just a place
• 4:41
  where you go in and look at animals.
• 4:43
  That's just one aspect of it.
• 4:45
  What I like to call it is it's a
• 4:46
  conservation organization.
• 4:48
  It's a facility that
• 4:49
  facilitates the conservation
• 4:50
  of the animals, not only that you house,
• 4:52
  but other animals locally and so forth
• 4:55
  and have programs with the community,
• 4:56
  have programs really
• 4:57
  all around the world.
• 4:58
  And that's what I love about the zoo.
• 5:00
  And so I really
• 5:01
  appreciate the work that you do
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  and congratulations on the
• 5:04
  expansion of that position
• 5:05
  that you were in, much is well deserved.
• 5:08
  And I know that they are going to be,
• 5:10
  the people there are going to be,
• 5:12
  not only the members of the zoo,
• 5:14
  but also the people who
• 5:15
  are there for the zoo,
• 5:17
  the staff and stuff that are
• 5:18
  going to enjoy what you do.
• 5:20
  And so I really appreciate
• 5:21
  you coming on the podcast.
• 5:23
  And I know I asked you
• 5:24
  last minute to come on
• 5:25
  because we're going to talk about this
• 5:26
  idea for de-extinction.
• 5:29
  But what I want to first get into is just
• 5:30
  kind of give an idea
• 5:31
  of what you do, like the cryogenics lab
• 5:34
  and the purpose of the
• 5:35
  cryogenics lab at the zoo.
• 5:37
  Can you tell us a
• 5:37
  little bit about sort of
• 5:38
  like a brief history
• 5:39
  of like how it started,
• 5:41
  why it started and then what you do
• 5:43
  with all the things
• 5:44
  at the cryogenics lab?
• 5:46
  So you've hit on one of my favourite
• 5:48
  topics and I'll try to
• 5:50
  be succinct about it.
• 5:51
  But so obviously Toronto Zoo has the only
• 5:55
  reproductive science
• 5:56
  program in a zoo in Canada.
• 5:58
  And so I mean, preserving genetic
• 6:01
  diversity can be done in a
• 6:03
  number of different ways.
• 6:04
  We can naturally breed animals and
• 6:06
  release them into the wild.
• 6:07
  But at Toronto Zoo, we also use
• 6:10
  alternative strategies, which is assisted
• 6:13
  reproduction as well.
• 6:16
  And because we work with artificial
• 6:17
  insemination, in vitro
• 6:19
  fertilization, producing embryos.
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  But the most important thing of all of
• 6:24
  that is that we can freeze them as well.
• 6:27
  So storing in liquid nitrogen means that
• 6:29
  that genetic material that is present
• 6:32
  today can be captured forever.
• 6:35
  As long as we monitor those tanks and
• 6:36
  look after them, we can take the
• 6:39
  snapshots in time of the
• 6:41
  species that are around.
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  So our biobank is 40 years old. I'm
• 6:47
  trying to do the math in my head.
• 6:49
  40 years old.
• 6:51
  Yeah, pushing.
• 6:52
  Yeah, 40 years old, 1980, right?
• 6:54
  Just yeah, just over 40 years old.
• 6:57
  And we've been diligently not only
• 7:01
  cryopreserving samples from our own
• 7:03
  animals, we support zoos across Canada.
• 7:06
  And of course, samples from the wild that
• 7:09
  that's the new area that we need to get
• 7:11
  into and have started working on.
• 7:13
  Now, when we talk about this genetic
• 7:16
  material, like this DNA that's preserved,
• 7:18
  we're talking about intact DNA.
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  Like this is not just DNA that's taken
• 7:22
  from a fossil or taken from something
• 7:25
  that's been that was, you know, died
• 7:27
  10,000 years ago or plus this is we're
• 7:30
  talking about things that have that like
• 7:32
  DNA material that's intact that have been
• 7:33
  taking over the last 40 years because
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  that's how long like, you know, within
• 7:37
  that that time span.
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  So like if you were to unfreeze it and I
• 7:41
  know obviously I'm simplifying that the
• 7:42
  process here, but if you were unfreeze
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  some of that genetic material, that
• 7:46
  genetic material would be intact if you
• 7:48
  want to use it, correct?
• 7:50
  So that is the important distinction.
• 7:52
  There's a lot of wildlife
• 7:54
  biobanks around the world.
• 7:56
  Our amazing Canadian Museum of Nature has
• 7:59
  Canada's biodiversity biobank.
• 8:02
  But when you're thinking of that DNA,
• 8:04
  whether it's ancestral or modern DNA,
• 8:08
  it's just frozen dead material.
• 8:11
  So you can get DNA out of it.
• 8:13
  But the cryobank or biobank at the
• 8:15
  Toronto Zoo has living cells, living
• 8:18
  sperm, living embryos, living skin cells
• 8:22
  from which we can just take DNA to
• 8:26
  sequence it or whatever
• 8:27
  we want to do with it.
• 8:29
  But we can also create offspring.
• 8:31
  So with with that, that nice clean modern
• 8:35
  living cells that are frozen away, we can
• 8:40
  apply the reproductive technologies that
• 8:42
  are available to us.
• 8:44
  That's amazing. If we just talk about the
• 8:45
  bison program, because this is something
• 8:47
  that I brag to people about because I'm
• 8:49
  so proud, not only to be from Toronto,
• 8:51
  but to be Canadian to be just say like,
• 8:54
  hey, this has happened locally.
• 8:55
  And it's not an easy thing to do.
• 8:58
  This is something that takes
• 8:59
  years and years of research.
• 9:01
  But can you talk about the program and
• 9:02
  what it's been able to accomplish?
• 9:05
  You know, it's been a
• 9:06
  it's been a long ago.
• 9:07
  We started 2007, 2008.
• 9:10
  So we're looking at over 15 years of
• 9:13
  really methodical and diligent trials,
• 9:17
  not only at Toronto Zoo, but this is a
• 9:20
  really important partnership with
• 9:21
  University of
• 9:22
  Saskatchewan and Parks Canada.
• 9:25
  And of course, partnerships and
• 9:26
  collaboration are the foundation of good
• 9:29
  research and good conservation.
• 9:31
  So, you know, we were interested in the
• 9:34
  challenges that were happening in the
• 9:36
  wild with the disease issue.
• 9:38
  Of course, there's some really
• 9:40
  genetically valuable animals that have
• 9:41
  tuberculosis, brucellosis.
• 9:44
  And we knew that we could take sperm,
• 9:47
  embryos, we can hopefully disinfect them
• 9:50
  of those diseases and
• 9:52
  bank clean genetics.
• 9:53
  So clean living sperm and embryos that
• 9:56
  can be used in the future to repopulate
• 9:58
  these disease free herds.
• 10:02
  And and there's been a couple of really
• 10:04
  important firsts that
• 10:05
  come out of this project.
• 10:06
  But of course, at Toronto Zoo, a few
• 10:08
  years ago, you might remember we had a
• 10:11
  calf born a bison calf born from sperm
• 10:14
  that had been frozen for 35 years.
• 10:17
  And that is the oldest, like living sperm
• 10:20
  frozen that resulted in a live calf from
• 10:23
  artificial insemination.
• 10:26
  So and that would mean again, just to
• 10:27
  simplify, that would mean so you took
• 10:29
  that that sperm from 35 years ago, you
• 10:31
  inseminate into an embryo and then a
• 10:34
  bison like a female bison carried that
• 10:37
  that fetus and then gave birth.
• 10:39
  Is that correct?
• 10:41
  Yes. So in this case, we didn't make the
• 10:44
  embryo in the lab, but so we thought this
• 10:46
  35 year frozen sperm, we put it into the
• 10:49
  female who was synchronized to the right
• 10:51
  time of the cycle. And she carried the
• 10:54
  embryo in the fetus to term.
• 10:57
  It's it's so funny when you say it
• 10:59
  because every time you say is like the
• 11:00
  timing had to be perfect. You know,
• 11:02
  you're looking at this, you know, you
• 11:04
  don't want to waste the sperm. Obviously,
• 11:06
  it's it's very valuable from a genetic
• 11:08
  diversity standpoint.
• 11:10
  Plus, like the age of it and and just
• 11:11
  sort of the sensitivity of the process
• 11:13
  itself. And it's just amazing how this is
• 11:16
  what happened. We got we got a bison now
• 11:18
  in the purpose of this program and many
• 11:20
  other programs at the zoo is to preserve
• 11:23
  genetic diversity to
• 11:24
  preserve the species.
• 11:25
  So one of the things that the zoo does
• 11:27
  and many other zoos in North America is
• 11:30
  they they team up and and try to mate
• 11:34
  animals of the same species that have a
• 11:36
  optimal genetic diversity.
• 11:38
  So if they made it, they would like that
• 11:40
  offspring would have that optimal
• 11:41
  diversity so that you can preserve the
• 11:44
  different genetic diversity.
• 11:45
  Can you talk about the importance of
• 11:48
  preserving that genetic
• 11:50
  diversity within a species?
• 11:53
  Yeah, so I really like how you describe
• 11:56
  that we we take a lot of care in how we
• 12:00
  pair the animals so that we make sure
• 12:02
  there's no inbreeding and they're they're
• 12:04
  genetically diverse.
• 12:05
  But the importance of genetic diversity
• 12:08
  is the long term health of the
• 12:11
  population. So you need genetic diversity
• 12:15
  to be able to adapt to
• 12:17
  changing environments.
• 12:18
  You need genetic diversity to stay
• 12:20
  healthy, to have good immune systems, to
• 12:23
  combat disease and natural changes or
• 12:27
  anthropogenic. So human induced changes
• 12:30
  as well. So yeah, genetic diversity is is
• 12:33
  the foundation of long term success.
• 12:37
  Yeah, it's a it's a conservation staple
• 12:38
  to you, right? When you talk about
• 12:40
  species diversity, we talk about
• 12:42
  community diversity, ecosystem diversity,
• 12:44
  but really down when you get down to it,
• 12:46
  it's that genetic diversity to make sure
• 12:48
  that population could be stable.
• 12:50
  And I really appreciate the amount of
• 12:52
  work that your team, you and your team
• 12:54
  have done, as well as your partners with
• 12:56
  the universities and Parks Canada have
• 12:58
  done to help preserve and help, you know,
• 13:02
  I guess, conserve
• 13:03
  this population of bison.
• 13:04
  And hopefully one day when that disease
• 13:06
  is eradicated in in the wild, or it's
• 13:09
  it's gotten to a manageable point. The
• 13:11
  goal is to take the bison of that have
• 13:14
  that do not have the disease in the zoo
• 13:16
  that you've been able to successfully
• 13:18
  breed and put them into
• 13:20
  into the wild. Is that correct?
• 13:23
  Yes, so ultimately, I mean, the whether
• 13:27
  it's in the biobank or whether they're in
• 13:29
  managed settings like zoos, these animals
• 13:32
  are the insurance for those future
• 13:35
  reintroductions. Now, sometimes
• 13:37
  reintroducing a species does not happen
• 13:40
  right away, because we've got to look
• 13:42
  after the habitat, we've got to make sure
• 13:44
  they're somewhere proper to put them back
• 13:47
  so that they survive.
• 13:48
  And with that, too, is another thing I
• 13:51
  learned at the zoo. It's the nutrition
• 13:52
  aspect, right? Is can that population
• 13:54
  hold enough enough animals that will
• 13:57
  maintain that population? You don't want
• 13:59
  to repopulate if there's not enough food
• 14:02
  or not enough resources available for
• 14:04
  that species to to survive.
• 14:06
  And there's a lot that goes in a lot of
• 14:08
  calculations, a lot of theoretical
• 14:10
  biology that goes on to be able to to
• 14:13
  understand that. And I think the
• 14:14
  nutrition department at the Toronto Zoo
• 14:16
  is very active in those calculations for
• 14:19
  other species that I
• 14:20
  think is is just wonderful.
• 14:22
  Now, let's get into the this is great. I
• 14:23
  really appreciate you coming on to talk
• 14:25
  about that because that's what I wanted
• 14:26
  to to get to get the audience to
• 14:28
  understand your background, your
• 14:30
  specialization and expertise.
• 14:32
  You obviously know that and you've been
• 14:35
  already talking to the news about this
• 14:37
  new project, I guess it's a company
• 14:41
  called Colossal. They've come out with an
• 14:44
  announcement that they've produced, quote
• 14:46
  unquote, three dire wolves.
• 14:49
  Now, the media and the marketing aspect
• 14:51
  of it, you have to respect it. They're
• 14:53
  coming out saying that these are dire
• 14:54
  wolves and we've successfully
• 14:57
  de-extincted these three.
• 14:59
  Like we brought the dire wolf back.
• 15:01
  That's a lot of the the for the first
• 15:04
  couple of days anyway, or even the first
• 15:05
  day. That was a lot of the
• 15:06
  titles on on Time magazine.
• 15:09
  I think it had extinct and then they put
• 15:11
  a cross. They put a red highlight marker
• 15:14
  around it and then they had the dire wolf
• 15:16
  there. Now, obviously, it's it's it's
• 15:18
  from it from. Well, actually, I should
• 15:19
  ask you from from a
• 15:21
  scientific point of view.
• 15:23
  This is pretty phenomenal, right? Is this
• 15:26
  is this something that's like this is
• 15:28
  incredible that we were able to do this
• 15:30
  as scientists is to inject the dire wolf
• 15:33
  DNA into a gray wolf DNA and to be able
• 15:37
  to produce an animal
• 15:40
  that has dire wolf DNA.
• 15:41
  That's pretty incredible, right?
• 15:44
  So, obviously, there's a lot of parts to
• 15:49
  this big, big picture here. The
• 15:53
  techniques that were done are very
• 15:57
  impactful and obviously, the funding and
• 16:01
  staffing resources at Colossal, they were
• 16:03
  able to to ramp up these technologies
• 16:06
  very quickly, what might have taken, you
• 16:09
  know, a zoo or a university longer to do.
• 16:11
  So, so, so technologically speaking,
• 16:16
  these are very important advancements for
• 16:18
  science in general. Right. Gotcha. Yeah.
• 16:22
  Now, one thing that I always I always
• 16:24
  find interesting. You mentioned like they
• 16:26
  had the resources, the financial
• 16:27
  resources to really
• 16:29
  accelerate that process to be.
• 16:31
  I looked at the number was 435 million
• 16:35
  dollars. Now, we biologists salivate at
• 16:40
  that amount of money. You know what I
• 16:42
  mean? Because as you well know, that goes
• 16:45
  a long way in conservation, not
• 16:48
  restoration, but in conservation. It
• 16:50
  takes a lot of money.
• 16:51
  It always is more expensive when you
• 16:53
  restore a habitat or you restore species
• 16:55
  in this case, right? 435 million dollars
• 16:57
  to get this thing started. Who knows how
• 17:00
  much is going to cost for other species?
• 17:01
  And maybe that will get cheaper if this
• 17:03
  continues on. That's a topic that we'll
• 17:06
  talk about in a bit.
• 17:07
  But I feel as though, you know, that's a
• 17:10
  lot of money that could be put towards
• 17:12
  other things in conservation, which we'll
• 17:14
  get to in a little bit. But the science
• 17:15
  of it, you're right. I feel like it's
• 17:17
  pretty cool that we were able to do that.
• 17:19
  Now, the question I ask you and you're
• 17:24
  like, I feel you have the expertise to
• 17:26
  really answer this and I'm sure you've
• 17:27
  thought about a lot of the ethical ways
• 17:29
  and even the scientific ways of how do
• 17:31
  we, you know, consider this a dire wolf
• 17:35
  species, right? Because if you if you
• 17:37
  really think about the information that's
• 17:39
  come out that a lot of people probably
• 17:40
  know is that, you know, this this chain
• 17:43
  of DNA that the Grey Wolf has is probably
• 17:45
  like, you know, 22 to
• 17:47
  23,000 genes within the DNA.
• 17:48
  And this is an estimate. This is what I'm
• 17:51
  getting off of reports. I don't know for
• 17:52
  sure. But this is around the thing. They
• 17:54
  did like, I think it was like, it was
• 17:57
  either like 20 different changes to 14
• 18:00
  genes or 14 different changes to 20 of
• 18:02
  those segments. So very, very small
• 18:04
  percentage of the Grey Wolf was altered
• 18:07
  of the DNA, a Grey Wolf, the day it was
• 18:09
  altered for dire wolf characteristics.
• 18:13
  So, from a scientific like taxonomy point
• 18:16
  of view, what do we consider is this
• 18:19
  considered like a new species or the dire
• 18:22
  wolf species? How do is it? Are there
• 18:24
  like certain regulations or credentials
• 18:29
  that that scientists follow that will
• 18:31
  that we would say, yes, this is a dire
• 18:33
  wolf species or no, this is just a
• 18:35
  genetically altered Grey Wolf species.
• 18:38
  That is very important question. And I
• 18:42
  think people need to understand the the
• 18:46
  regulatory part of it and and then can
• 18:49
  make up their mind. So, you know, science
• 18:52
  is very methodical and the definition of
• 18:55
  species, how years ago it
• 18:58
  was based on morphology.
• 19:00
  And I think we've moved away from that
• 19:01
  because we know that morphology doesn't
• 19:03
  give you the entire picture. So now we
• 19:06
  are using genetics to make sure that
• 19:09
  they're different species. Doing it was
• 19:12
  20 edits on 14 genes.
• 19:15
  I always get those mixed up.
• 19:17
  But minuscule minuscule. Yeah. Yeah, it
• 19:21
  really is just genetic modification. It
• 19:24
  is not a new species. And if you think,
• 19:27
  as an example, I have a Maltese at home,
• 19:30
  right? My Maltese is not a great day. But
• 19:33
  I'll guarantee there's you know, 20 size
• 19:36
  and co color edits between the Maltese
• 19:39
  and the Great Dane, maybe 50, maybe 10.
• 19:43
  But but to do morphology based changes
• 19:46
  and then declared a new species is not
• 19:51
  telling the full truth. A species is much
• 19:54
  more complex than co color and size.
• 19:58
  And I think that's what they were
• 19:59
  according to a lot of the PR and a lot of
• 20:02
  the articles that Colossus, the colossal
• 20:04
  came out with. So not necessarily with
• 20:06
  where other scientists were like yourself
• 20:09
  or other other experts
• 20:10
  were commenting on it.
• 20:11
  This is what they put out as their as
• 20:14
  their PR, you know, a lot of them saying
• 20:16
  we just want to see if we could make a
• 20:18
  dire wolf like our species that would
• 20:20
  express the dire wolf gene. So having I
• 20:24
  think they said a main or even being like
• 20:26
  six feet long, I think are some of the
• 20:27
  characteristics that that
• 20:29
  they that they discussed.
• 20:30
  They they never actually came out and
• 20:32
  said this is a dire wolf species.
• 20:35
  However, a lot of the media came out and
• 20:37
  saying, hey, the dire wolf is back, the
• 20:39
  dire wolf back. And of course, the dire
• 20:41
  wolf is very popular in in
• 20:43
  the Game of Thrones version.
• 20:45
  They even had George R.R. Martin, you
• 20:49
  know, as part of the photo shoot, he even
• 20:50
  cried when he saw them and they're
• 20:52
  beautiful puppies. Like, let's be honest
• 20:53
  as animal lovers, you know, you want to
• 20:55
  hug them and you want to play with them.
• 20:56
  However, there, you know, there was I
• 20:59
  think a lot of scientists are up in arms
• 21:01
  because, you know, people are calling
• 21:03
  this, you know, they brought back the
• 21:05
  dire, the dire wolf. That's not the case.
• 21:08
  Correct? Is that like from a scientific
• 21:10
  point of view, they didn't
• 21:11
  bring back a dire wolf, right?
• 21:14
  Correct. So one to say to announce that,
• 21:19
  you know, some really amazing lab
• 21:21
  experiments were done. Really, what the
• 21:25
  advancement is, is the ability to edit
• 21:28
  more than one gene or low site at a time.
• 21:31
  So they made 20 edits at the same time.
• 21:34
  That's that's called multiplex gene
• 21:36
  editing spectacular. I mean, that that is
• 21:39
  an advancement. The challenge scientists
• 21:44
  are having is to say that anything was
• 21:46
  resurrected or de extincted, or even that
• 21:50
  it is a different species is really, you
• 21:54
  know, skewing the
• 21:55
  reality of what a species is.
• 21:58
  Right. So if we're going to, you know,
• 22:03
  there's a pop culture involved here, you
• 22:05
  said it, this is Game of Thrones land,
• 22:07
  which I sadly didn't watch, but now I
• 22:09
  might go back and watch. But but we are
• 22:13
  in the pop culture and people want to
• 22:15
  call them dire wolves. So, you know, and
• 22:18
  from a pop culture stance,
• 22:20
  okay, you know, that's fine.
• 22:22
  But from a scientific communication
• 22:26
  standpoint, we have to stay true to the
• 22:29
  science. So we do have to call them
• 22:31
  genetically modified organisms, rather
• 22:33
  than a new species. They're genetically
• 22:35
  modified gray wolves. Yeah, right.
• 22:38
  Gotcha. Now I have to ask this as someone
• 22:40
  who works for the zoo and the zoo is
• 22:41
  very, very big on not only having, you
• 22:44
  know, scientists and experts, but also
• 22:46
  being able to communicate that
• 22:47
  science to the public, right?
• 22:48
  Every one of you at the staff there are
• 22:51
  very good at discussing about the
• 22:54
  animals, the different characteristics,
• 22:55
  their personalities of the animals that
• 22:57
  you have at the zoo, but also the work
• 22:58
  that you do, which is very complex. You
• 23:00
  have to have that ability to say that to
• 23:03
  a public audience that may or may not
• 23:05
  have the background, like a biology
• 23:07
  background or anything
• 23:08
  like a science background.
• 23:09
  And you guys are very good at doing what
• 23:11
  you do. Now here's the question I pose to
• 23:12
  you. Okay. The media comes out saying
• 23:16
  dire wolves are back, right? De extinct. Everything like that.
• 23:17
  Scientists come out and be like, well,
• 23:20
  actually hold on a second. Like that's
• 23:23
  not the case in this particular point,
• 23:26
  but everybody's excited that this dire
• 23:29
  wolf is back. And this is the first time
• 23:30
  they've some of them have most of them
• 23:32
  have ever heard of this type of, you
• 23:35
  know, of this technology is
• 23:36
  biotechnologies to bring in. So they get
• 23:38
  excited about that, especially in a new
• 23:40
  cycle. That is, let's be honest, crap
• 23:42
  right now. Like it's not very nice. So we have this, like, you know, some of the things that we're doing that are really, really cool.
• 23:45
  We have this, like, you know, scientists
• 23:47
  are always, I always feel like the
• 23:49
  scientists are like the parents of, of,
• 23:51
  you know, the public words like, yeah, it
• 23:53
  is kind of cool, but it's not quite the
• 23:55
  way it is. And they're all
• 23:56
  just like, you ruin everything.
• 23:58
  Like, you know, it's almost that
• 23:59
  perception as a scientist where you have
• 24:01
  to say it because we're scientists, but
• 24:03
  also people are like, but dire wolves,
• 24:05
  like we want dire wolves. How do you deal
• 24:08
  with that where you can speak
• 24:10
  intelligently on the subject?
• 24:13
  But in a way where you're not seen as,
• 24:16
  you know, downing the the the the this
• 24:20
  new sort of announcement.
• 24:23
  Okay, that's a really important question.
• 24:26
  And I think that's what really good
• 24:28
  science communicators are about. And
• 24:31
  perhaps because we work in zoos and our
• 24:34
  goal is to educate as well as doing
• 24:36
  science, we really focus on educating
• 24:39
  from like two-year-olds
• 24:41
  to 72 year olds. We have to, you know,
• 24:46
  master the span of the language. But I
• 24:49
  think what is really important is to
• 24:52
  celebrate the science, the science that
• 24:56
  was done needs to be celebrated in the
• 24:59
  sense that they are developing
• 25:01
  technologies that can be
• 25:03
  useful for many things.
• 25:04
  But then we need to stay true to science.
• 25:09
  And one of the reasons is because it is a
• 25:11
  very difficult time in the world now,
• 25:14
  where, you know, people are questioning
• 25:17
  what is being said in social media, on
• 25:20
  the internet. And if scientists don't say
• 25:23
  stay true to the word, to the science,
• 25:27
  then it becomes a slippery slope for
• 25:29
  scientific integrity.
• 25:30
  So we celebrate what was done. But then
• 25:34
  we clearly state that, you know, we'd
• 25:37
  like to call these genetically modified
• 25:39
  gray wolves. Right. But we celebrate how
• 25:41
  they got there. Exactly. Yeah. And I
• 25:44
  agree with you. I think that's that's
• 25:45
  really important,
• 25:47
  especially from a public perception.
• 25:47
  Like we know scientists sometimes in the
• 25:50
  public are not really seen as, you know,
• 25:54
  the regular people that everybody that we
• 25:55
  are, you know, and this is why I started
• 25:57
  the podcast is to get to know people and
• 25:59
  and how we behave and what our likes and
• 26:02
  dislikes are and then how we feel about
• 26:04
  certain topics like this.
• 26:05
  But it's also when when we get an idea
• 26:08
  like this, they're not just the questions
• 26:10
  of this is great technology and this is
• 26:12
  really cool. And we celebrate it. But
• 26:13
  there are a lot of thoughts from an
• 26:16
  ethical point of view of what we're doing
• 26:18
  here. And I'd like to talk about this for
• 26:20
  the rest of the interview. And that is,
• 26:22
  okay, so now we have these these wolves,
• 26:25
  these genetically modified wolves,
• 26:27
  modified wolves with
• 26:28
  dire wolf genes in them.
• 26:31
  This means that there's genes in this
• 26:34
  these wolves. We don't know if they're
• 26:35
  going to be dominant. We don't know if
• 26:37
  they're going to be recessive. We have no
• 26:39
  idea. They are in a two thousand acre
• 26:43
  park or reserve that they're monitored by
• 26:47
  like 10, 10 different people.
• 26:50
  And they're, they're well secured
• 26:51
  according to the company, according to
• 26:53
  colossal. Say they get out. Right. This
• 26:57
  is what we're always worried as
• 26:59
  biologists in conservation.
• 27:00
  As we worry about Atlantic salmon being
• 27:02
  farmed in open pen nets and what if they
• 27:05
  get out? That's a concern that, you know,
• 27:07
  the aquaculture facilities as well as
• 27:09
  biologists and the government are all
• 27:11
  worried about what if they get out and
• 27:13
  what if they interact with gray wolves
• 27:17
  within their area, right?
• 27:17
  They're obviously in probably a similar
• 27:20
  habitat. That's why they're located. We
• 27:21
  don't know where they're located, but we
• 27:23
  know they're in northern in northern US.
• 27:25
  What if that again, what if these animals
• 27:28
  start to interact and start to breed with
• 27:32
  these animals? Could this, even though
• 27:35
  there's the small amount of genes that
• 27:37
  are changed, could this
• 27:39
  affect the local population?
• 27:41
  Especially as an invasive species.
• 27:46
  Okay. So, so those are the things, you
• 27:49
  know, when, when scientists are always
• 27:52
  not the fun ones at the party is because
• 27:55
  we're always the ones calculating risk.
• 28:00
  Yes. Yes. In our mind, calculating risk.
• 28:02
  So absolutely, this is not a different
• 28:06
  species. We know that they can interbreed
• 28:08
  with gray wolves. We know that even a
• 28:14
  really protected habitat that the the
• 28:18
  chance of escape is always there. It's
• 28:19
  never 100% full proof. So, so this animal
• 28:25
  is larger looks different.
• 28:27
  We actually the the laboratory
• 28:31
  experiments were not properly done to
• 28:33
  understand how the selective advantage.
• 28:38
  Will it out compete gray wolves with will
• 28:42
  the hybrids out compete natural gray
• 28:44
  wolves we actually like the the
• 28:48
  difference between an academic study
• 28:50
  where a lot of the checks and balances
• 28:52
  through the repeated laboratory
• 28:54
  experiments are done.
• 28:54
  And the paper is published. This is a
• 28:58
  case where the pups were made the moment
• 29:01
  is celebrated, but we actually don't have
• 29:04
  all the answers yet. So the word invasive
• 29:08
  species could be the reality. So, you
• 29:12
  know, right now they're saying they're
• 29:15
  not slated for release.
• 29:16
  But you know, the discussion is always
• 29:20
  there. Yeah, if the decision is made, you
• 29:24
  know, five, 10 years from now or two
• 29:26
  years from now that there's a possibility
• 29:28
  of release. Let us remember that there is
• 29:31
  no actual, you know, border in the wild
• 29:35
  between states between provinces. These
• 29:39
  animals can get anywhere and they are
• 29:41
  predators. So they're,
• 29:42
  they're top of the line.
• 29:44
  I mentioned breeding, but you're looking
• 29:46
  at affecting, you know, prey species and
• 29:49
  and food for other like that could affect
• 29:51
  the food availability for other wolf
• 29:53
  wolves and so forth. So that could that
• 29:55
  that's something I never really thought
• 29:57
  of. But obviously something
• 29:58
  that you have to think about.
• 29:59
  And now, you know, we don't know if they
• 30:02
  plan on making more. We don't know if
• 30:04
  this is an ongoing breeding breeding
• 30:06
  program. So we'll let colossal decide
• 30:08
  that and announce that in terms of
• 30:10
  because we don't know that. But it's
• 30:12
  definitely a consideration. Obviously, if
• 30:13
  they continue to breed them, they're
• 30:15
  going to have to do something with them.
• 30:16
  They can't just use a 2000 acre park.
• 30:19
  Now, it would be cool if people could see
• 30:21
  them and people can look at them. I think
• 30:23
  again, like just to see if they do
• 30:24
  express that those genes later on in life
• 30:27
  as they become an adult and see what they can do.
• 30:28
  And if they do express that those genes later on in life as they become an adult
• 30:29
  and see what this ancient species look
• 30:31
  like or this, you know, 10,000 year old
• 30:33
  species look like. I think it would be
• 30:35
  kind of kind of an interesting thing from
• 30:36
  a scientific point of view and definitely
• 30:37
  interesting for for for other people that
• 30:42
  that are, you know, want to know more
• 30:43
  about about animals. Now, it's
• 30:46
  interesting. I was I was reading on the
• 30:47
  CBC article where Colossal like the CEO
• 30:50
  Ben Lam says that, you know, the project
• 30:53
  started out two years ago to get people
• 30:54
  talking about
• 30:55
  endangered red wolf populations.
• 30:57
  And they said with this technology,
• 30:58
  they've actually used a less invasive
• 31:01
  technique it developed while working with
• 31:03
  diarwolves. They actually produce clone
• 31:05
  for cloned red wolves. Now, you are
• 31:08
  involved in a lot of, you know, in vitro
• 31:11
  fertilization and, you know, taking those
• 31:14
  eggs, experiment and being able to.
• 31:32
  We don't understand why this is so hard to explain. But this is the 00 sorry, 20 fact agent. Now, this it the game's
• 31:37
  sort of cliché joke in that now. the ancient DNA to produce clones of, you
• 31:42
  know, present-day DNA, correct?
• 31:46
  Correct, correct. And in fact, Toronto
• 31:49
  Zoo has red wolf sperm
• 31:50
  frozen in its cryobank.
• 31:53
  We were one of the original partners in
• 31:56
  the Red Wolf Project in the 90s and 2000s
• 31:58
  where we were trying to develop
• 32:00
  artificial
• 32:00
  insemination programs. So we're
• 32:03
  kind of connected in the past. But the
• 32:06
  Red Wolf is a species where we've got
• 32:09
  genetic diversity in the biobank,
• 32:12
  you know, a number of males going back
• 32:15
  almost to the founders. So there's a lot
• 32:18
  of genetic diversity present.
• 32:20
  Think about that 35-year frozen bison
• 32:22
  calf. We can have 30-year-old
• 32:26
  frozen red wolf pups as well.
• 32:30
  So when you're looking at a species like
• 32:32
  Red Wolf, I don't see the need for these
• 32:35
  really high end genetic editing
• 32:38
  technologies to to ensure the genetic
• 32:41
  diversity of the Red Wolf right now.
• 32:44
  Okay. And now we are going to go a little
• 32:47
  bit beyond the dire wolves now because
• 32:49
  this this company has also come out and
• 32:51
  said it has DNA, not intact DNA, but DNA
• 32:55
  from woolly mammoths, the thylacine, I
• 32:58
  think, which is the Tasmanian tiger.
• 33:00
  Ancient species that have been extinct
• 33:02
  and the dodo bird, which is pretty much
• 33:04
  the representative for all extinct
• 33:07
  species. You know, everybody's it's part
• 33:09
  of that. That, you know, that expression,
• 33:11
  the way of the dodo, meaning it's going
• 33:13
  out the window kind of thing. It's it's
• 33:14
  going to go extinct. These are other
• 33:16
  species. But, you know, the woolly
• 33:18
  mammoth is one that's that's
• 33:19
  interesting. A large animal.
• 33:21
  Obviously, people have been, you know,
• 33:23
  bringing it back in movies and, you know,
• 33:26
  cartoons and it's it's a it's an
• 33:27
  interesting animal, obviously, because
• 33:28
  we're like the elephant is such an iconic
• 33:30
  animal present day that the woolly
• 33:33
  mammoth becomes iconic as well from an
• 33:35
  ancient perspective.
• 33:36
  They say that they are on their way to
• 33:39
  actually producing a woolly mammoth. Now,
• 33:43
  woolly mammoths like environments that
• 33:47
  are very similar to
• 33:49
  Canadian environments.
• 33:50
  Where do they like? I guess the question
• 33:54
  is like, where do they plan on putting
• 33:55
  these these animals? I know this is a
• 33:57
  company that's US based and then maybe
• 33:58
  they try and put it, you know, northern
• 34:00
  part. But we're talking about dire
• 34:02
  wolves. We're talking about woolly
• 34:03
  mammoths. And I'm not sure about the
• 34:05
  Tasmanian tiger or the dodo, but these
• 34:07
  are both animals that like cold areas
• 34:10
  like colder temperatures.
• 34:12
  I'm going to go out and say tundra Arctic
• 34:15
  tundra, like very like colder animals.
• 34:17
  Obviously, they had the fur on them. I
• 34:20
  guess the question is, is one, where are
• 34:24
  we going to put them? And is it right to
• 34:26
  bring them back during a time where the
• 34:27
  earth is warming? You know what I mean?
• 34:30
  Like we're an unprecedented warming due
• 34:32
  to humans. Is it ethically right to bring
• 34:36
  these animals back in
• 34:37
  such a bad situation?
• 34:39
  So again, these are these are really
• 34:42
  great questions with the dire wolf and
• 34:44
  the woolly mammoth. We're talking about
• 34:47
  two species that had a native range in in
• 34:51
  what is present day Canada. Right. So, so
• 34:54
  that's why we should be paying attention.
• 34:56
  Because, you know, they would do very
• 35:00
  well in our ecosystems up here. The
• 35:03
  tricky thing is that the environment
• 35:07
  today in the north or across Canada is
• 35:10
  not what it was in the ice age when they
• 35:13
  were last here. It is
• 35:15
  a different ecosystem.
• 35:15
  And so not knowing the gene edits that
• 35:23
  will be done to create the woolly mammoth
• 35:25
  or the the full dire wolf. We really
• 35:30
  don't have an understanding of how
• 35:32
  they're going to perform in today's
• 35:34
  environment. And remember you you earlier
• 35:38
  on had said about like our nutrition team
• 35:41
  understanding the nutrition, not only in
• 35:44
  human care, but in the world.
• 35:45
  So what what is left for them? What truly
• 35:50
  will they eat? Not only to you know, we
• 35:53
  say in the zoo world, it's not about just
• 35:56
  surviving. It's about thriving. Yes, yes.
• 36:00
  You don't want to release them to the
• 36:01
  wild to hang on like to barely survive.
• 36:04
  They need to be able to thrive and build
• 36:07
  population. So yeah, can we offer that?
• 36:10
  Yeah, I don't think we know. Yeah.
• 36:12
  Well, and even thinking here's my marine
• 36:14
  biology brain going off here. You got you
• 36:16
  got a polar bear population who is
• 36:20
  suffering because they can't be on ice
• 36:21
  floats as much because of the melting sea
• 36:24
  ice. So they can't hunt as as what they
• 36:26
  used to be. So now there's evidence to
• 36:28
  show that they are spending more time on
• 36:30
  land to try and find berries and food.
• 36:33
  And but there's not much in
• 36:34
  the Arctic in terms of that.
• 36:35
  If you put a wooly mammoth in the Arctic,
• 36:39
  those polar bears might thrive just from
• 36:42
  hunting wooly man. I don't know if that's
• 36:44
  going to happen or if that would ever
• 36:45
  happen, but that might actually save that
• 36:47
  species. Now, of course, I do this in
• 36:49
  just because you know, you just you just
• 36:51
  think like out of the box kind of thing.
• 36:53
  But you know, we are not bringing back
• 36:56
  species to help other species because we
• 36:58
  can't control what happens in nature.
• 36:59
  And I think humans are often thought to
• 37:03
  have doing like we've done that in the
• 37:04
  past and it's it's failed miserably with
• 37:06
  invasive species and introducing species
• 37:08
  that they that we shouldn't have in it
• 37:10
  affecting the rest of the environment. So
• 37:12
  we even though we understand more of the
• 37:14
  intricacies of food webs and so forth, I
• 37:16
  feel like it's difficult to to do that
• 37:19
  kind of thing. But yeah, from an ethical
• 37:21
  standpoint, you know, looking at there's
• 37:23
  so many things to to to address.
• 37:27
  Hopefully, you know, colossal has some answers as the same thing.
• 37:28
  With that,istry, and universal.
• 37:58
  Overall from your perspective, personally
• 38:02
  and scientifically,
• 38:05
  is this something, what
• 38:06
  do you think about all of this?
• 38:08
  In terms of, obviously we know what you
• 38:11
  think about in terms of the science.
• 38:12
  It's really interesting that they're able
• 38:14
  to do multiple
• 38:15
  different segments and gene
• 38:17
  expressions, which I think is really,
• 38:18
  obviously I agree with
• 38:19
  you, it's really cool.
• 38:20
  But with the whole press release, with
• 38:22
  the whole idea of
• 38:23
  de-extinction, what are your
• 38:26
  thoughts on that from a scientific point
• 38:28
  of view, this whole thing?
• 38:31
  You know, I'm a
• 38:34
  biotechnologist by training, right?
• 38:36
  Those of us at reproductive technology,
• 38:38
  we're biotechnologists.
• 38:40
  And as much as I've spent my entire
• 38:42
  career working in
• 38:44
  biotechnology, what I'm realizing
• 38:48
  is that we have to
• 38:50
  connect humans to nature.
• 38:54
  The way for us to stay healthy, like the
• 38:57
  planetary health, global health, one
• 38:59
  health, the way for humans, animals,
• 39:02
  plants and the environment to continue to
• 39:04
  be healthy is that we
• 39:05
  have to connect to it.
• 39:07
  And I think by giving us an out, this
• 39:10
  type of synthesized nature, whether we're
• 39:14
  synthesizing animals or plants or, you
• 39:17
  know, aquatics or things in the sky,
• 39:23
  it's an easy out.
• 39:25
  It doesn't necessarily
• 39:26
  connect people to nature.
• 39:28
  And that's the one thing that I think
• 39:30
  we're missing to create
• 39:32
  that nature positive world.
• 39:34
  The Red Wolf is still having problems,
• 39:37
  not because we didn't set up a cryobank,
• 39:40
  but because humans refuse to live with
• 39:43
  them and we're
• 39:45
  shooting them, poisoning them.
• 39:47
  And there was roadkill
• 39:47
  and other challenges.
• 39:50
  So, so like it's time for humans to step
• 39:54
  up and not not think that there's there's
• 39:57
  a tech out, an easy out technology is
• 40:01
  going to give us an easy out.
• 40:03
  And I feel as though, you know, having
• 40:05
  this these these cryobanks, having the
• 40:07
  ability to repopulate is a tool in the
• 40:10
  tool, the conservation tool belt, but
• 40:11
  it's not the tool that we need to think
• 40:14
  we're not just going to start producing
• 40:15
  and then do whatever we
• 40:16
  want with these animals.
• 40:17
  That's not what we do.
• 40:19
  We want to make sure that we conserve
• 40:20
  what we have right there and not affect
• 40:22
  the rest of the environment.
• 40:24
  And if we could reproduce them and help
• 40:25
  the species, that's great.
• 40:27
  But it's a species that's today living
• 40:29
  today having intact DNA, right?
• 40:32
  Exactly.
• 40:33
  You know, the key word in reproductive
• 40:35
  technology is assisted
• 40:37
  reproductive technology.
• 40:39
  It's to assist as needed
• 40:41
  not to create from scratch.
• 40:43
  Gotcha.
• 40:44
  Now, I have to ask this question because
• 40:45
  everybody in the comments every time they
• 40:47
  see something when it comes to cryogenic
• 40:50
  labs and bringing back
• 40:51
  species and this is for fun.
• 40:54
  How close are we to Jurassic Park?
• 40:58
  My lifetime.
• 41:02
  Bringing back dynamic.
• 41:03
  We're able to bring back the wooly man
• 41:05
  with are we able to bring back dinosaurs?
• 41:07
  Is that like with
• 41:08
  bird DNA like with birds?
• 41:10
  Are we able to do that?
• 41:12
  You know what?
• 41:13
  My understanding is that perhaps the DNA
• 41:15
  is just too fragmented.
• 41:18
  Gotcha.
• 41:19
  So again, you know, colossal is
• 41:21
  developing the steps to get there.
• 41:25
  But but I think we're talking about
• 41:26
  species where where we just
• 41:28
  don't have enough intact DNA.
• 41:30
  Gotcha.
• 41:31
  Well, that's really great.
• 41:32
  Gabby, this has been fantastic.
• 41:34
  Again, I really appreciate you doing this
• 41:36
  on such short notice and bringing your
• 41:38
  scientific expertise and
• 41:39
  your personal expertise.
• 41:40
  I really appreciate all the work that you
• 41:42
  do for the zoo and what you've been doing
• 41:43
  for conservation and coming on here and
• 41:45
  giving our audience a great perspective
• 41:49
  on what's been happening with with these
• 41:51
  dire wolves and colossal.
• 41:52
  And thank you so much.
• 41:53
  I'd love to have you
• 41:54
  back on the podcast again.
• 41:57
  Wonderful.
• 41:57
  I'll take up the invitation and and in
• 42:00
  return, I want to thank you
• 42:01
  for sharing these stories.
• 42:02
  I think it's important for everyone to
• 42:04
  have a deep understanding and and then be
• 42:07
  able to to form their own thoughts.
• 42:09
  Absolutely.
• 42:10
  Absolutely.
• 42:10
  And I'm going to tell us the people I
• 42:12
  know I have a lot of people
• 42:13
  who listen across the world.
• 42:15
  But if you're ever in Toronto, go visit
• 42:17
  the Toronto Zoo, talk to the zookeepers.
• 42:19
  They know a lot about about these animals
• 42:21
  and they can talk a lot
• 42:22
  about the cryogenics lab.
• 42:24
  They can talk a lot about the research on
• 42:26
  not only the conservation, but the
• 42:27
  welfare of the animals.
• 42:29
  You guys do a great job
• 42:30
  in communicating that.
• 42:31
  And I really appreciate it.
• 42:32
  So for the audience members for coming to
• 42:34
  Toronto, let me know and I'll come with
• 42:35
  you and I'll we'll we'll we'll be able to
• 42:37
  talk all about that.
• 42:38
  So thank you again, Gabby.
• 42:40
  Really appreciate it.
• 42:40
  We'd love to have you back on.
• 42:42
  Excellent.
• 42:43
  Have a great day.
• 42:44
  Thanks.
• 42:44
  You too.
• 42:45
  Thank you, Gabby, for joining us on
• 42:46
  today's episode of the How
• 42:47
  to Protect the Ocean podcast.
• 42:48
  It was great to have you on.
• 42:50
  Great to be able to
• 42:51
  answer those questions.
• 42:52
  I hope you're listening to this and
• 42:54
  saying, hey, you know what?
• 42:55
  Like I'm an audience member.
• 42:56
  I talk.
• 42:57
  I come here to hear about the
• 42:58
  ocean to hear about science.
• 43:00
  This is an interesting science news piece
• 43:03
  because it was it was worldwide in a time
• 43:06
  where the new cycle sucks.
• 43:08
  And we're always hearing
• 43:09
  about disappointing news.
• 43:11
  This is kind of something that
• 43:12
  was like, hey, you know what?
• 43:13
  This is cool news.
• 43:14
  This is something interesting is
• 43:15
  something that you can talk to people
• 43:17
  about in a positive way.
• 43:19
  And I wanted to make sure that you had
• 43:21
  all the resources and understood all of
• 43:24
  the implications of a significant
• 43:27
  achievement like this.
• 43:29
  And I think that's what I wanted to do
• 43:30
  for today's episode is just
• 43:32
  to give you the information.
• 43:33
  And Gabby obviously had an amazing
• 43:36
  expertise background.
• 43:37
  She brought the
• 43:38
  information like no other.
• 43:40
  And I'm really happy that I
• 43:41
  got to have her on the podcast.
• 43:43
  I asked her yesterday
• 43:44
  and she did it like today.
• 43:45
  Today is Wednesday.
• 43:46
  I'm going to release this on a Friday.
• 43:48
  But I asked her on a Tuesday.
• 43:49
  She says, yes, I'm available.
• 43:51
  And she was able to do this.
• 43:52
  And not only does she did
• 43:53
  it in such great fashion.
• 43:54
  So I really appreciate Gabby for for
• 43:56
  being on the show and for bringing us the
• 43:58
  information that we needed to know about
• 44:00
  these direwalls or these genetically
• 44:02
  modified gray whales.
• 44:03
  So and answering the questions and
• 44:05
  talking about questions around marketing
• 44:08
  and PR for these types of species.
• 44:10
  And is it people are like, hey, we
• 44:12
  brought the direwalls back and is it but
• 44:14
  it's not really a direwolf from a
• 44:15
  scientific point of view.
• 44:16
  And there are scientific regulations and
• 44:18
  functions that we have to follow around
• 44:22
  naming certain species or coming up with
• 44:25
  a different species just because they may
• 44:28
  look like a different species.
• 44:29
  Doesn't mean genetically
• 44:30
  they are a different species.
• 44:31
  And I really loved how Gabby highlighted
• 44:34
  that aspect that we used to be species on
• 44:36
  morphology, but we don't do that anymore
• 44:38
  because we have the genetic material or
• 44:40
  ability to read the genetic material.
• 44:42
  Now we look at it, how
• 44:43
  diverse they are from genetics.
• 44:45
  And look, this happens every once in a
• 44:47
  while where we see, you know, we see
• 44:49
  species like say fish species that we
• 44:52
  think are a large population.
• 44:54
  And then we do the genetic, you know, we
• 44:56
  do the genetic comparison of different
• 44:57
  like subpopulations.
• 44:59
  And we find out that one population is
• 45:00
  genetically different from another
• 45:02
  population that could be because they
• 45:03
  were isolated a hundred years ago, two
• 45:06
  thousand years ago, ten
• 45:07
  thousand years ago geographically.
• 45:09
  And so they came up with their own
• 45:10
  genetic mutations and they started to
• 45:12
  develop that way and evolve that way.
• 45:14
  But morphologically, like
• 45:15
  outside, they look the same.
• 45:17
  So we just assume
• 45:18
  that they were the same.
• 45:19
  And when we categorize based on
• 45:21
  morphology, we
• 45:22
  categorize it the same way.
• 45:23
  Now we're being able to look at the
• 45:24
  genetic material and understanding that
• 45:26
  when we compare them,
• 45:27
  some of them are different.
• 45:28
  We look at it.
• 45:28
  Are they new species?
• 45:30
  And is that new species species at risk
• 45:32
  because they don't have the population
• 45:34
  numbers to say, hey,
• 45:36
  we're a healthy population.
• 45:37
  We have to find out more about that.
• 45:39
  And it incurs more research.
• 45:42
  It inspires more research.
• 45:43
  It demands more research to be able to
• 45:46
  make sure that we protect that species.
• 45:47
  So this gets into a whole other side of
• 45:51
  biology, a whole other side of genetics
• 45:53
  and conservation biology.
• 45:55
  And I think it's extremely important to
• 45:57
  talk about something that we don't talk
• 45:58
  about on this podcast at all.
• 46:00
  This is the first time
• 46:01
  we've really talked about it.
• 46:02
  And I'm really happy that
• 46:03
  Gabby was able to join us.
• 46:04
  And I hope you got what you came for.
• 46:06
  I hope you got the information that you
• 46:08
  needed to say, hey, when people talk to
• 46:10
  you, it's like, hey, I was
• 46:10
  listening to this podcast.
• 46:12
  This is what they said
• 46:12
  they're an expert on.
• 46:13
  You know, it's a cool thing that they're
• 46:15
  able to modify multiple genes at once and
• 46:18
  express it into an animal.
• 46:21
  And but there's also a lot of questions
• 46:22
  that and implications from this and what
• 46:24
  we're going to do in the future.
• 46:25
  You know, I think that's something the
• 46:27
  questions that become interesting and
• 46:28
  what they're going to do with these
• 46:29
  species and how much how often are they
• 46:32
  going to be reproducing these species?
• 46:34
  Is this just three dire wolves and that's
• 46:36
  cool or are they going
• 46:37
  to be producing more?
• 46:38
  What are we going to do with those?
• 46:39
  Where are they going to go?
• 46:40
  All these questions need to
• 46:41
  be answered in time, of course.
• 46:44
  But I'd love to hear your
• 46:45
  opinion on what's happening.
• 46:47
  You know, like the story, the way they
• 46:49
  came out, the story, the naming of the
• 46:51
  dire wolf compared to a
• 46:52
  genetically modified gray wolf.
• 46:54
  Do you even care?
• 46:55
  I would love to know your opinion.
• 46:56
  Hit me up in the comments below if you're
• 46:58
  watching this on YouTube.
• 46:59
  Or of course, you can always contact me
• 47:01
  on Instagram at How To Protect The Ocean.
• 47:03
  That's at How To Protect The Ocean.
• 47:05
  But thank you again for Gabby.
• 47:07
  Thank you for listening to this episode
• 47:09
  of the How To Protect The Ocean podcast.
• 47:10
  I'm your host, Andrew Lorne from the True
• 47:12
  North Strong and Free.
• 47:13
  Have a great day.
• 47:13
  We'll talk to you next
• 47:14
  time and happy conservation.