Latest / Who Did What Now With Katie Charlwood / 89. Lavinia Fisher - America's First Female Serial Killer

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89. Lavinia Fisher - America's First Female Serial Killer · Who Did What Now With Katie Charlwood

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Speaker 1: You're listening to an airwave media podcast. Hi everybody, and
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Speaker 1: welcome to whoded What Now? The history podcast That's not
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Speaker 1: your history class with me your host, Katie Charlewood, History
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Speaker 1: Harlotte and reader of books. Welcome one and all to
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Speaker 1: old friends and you. I don't know why I said
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Speaker 1: that that was fucking weird before we get into anything.
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Speaker 1: Of course, if you are new here and you have
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Speaker 1: an issue with colorful language or information presented to you
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Speaker 1: in a less than pleasant fashion, then you might want
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Speaker 1: to exit stage left. Good now that we've got that
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Speaker 1: under control. I, as you can tell, my voice is
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Speaker 1: a little gone, and I want to apologize if I'm
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Speaker 1: nasily or a little bit husky unless you like this voice.
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Speaker 1: Mm yeah, my jazz voice. Yeah, I no. I just
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Speaker 1: got back from Disneyland Paris. I took my two kids
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Speaker 1: and their big sister with me and we had a
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Speaker 1: great time for the most part. When my kids weren't hunching.
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Speaker 1: They've just never been anywhere before, so they didn't know
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Speaker 1: what to expect, and so I think it was a
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Speaker 1: lot for them. And I know that my kids were
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Speaker 1: sick because or they were at least getting to the
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Speaker 1: point where they were under the weather because when I
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Speaker 1: asked my girl if she wanted some macalons, yeah, I
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Speaker 1: said that, or if she wanted chocolate cover strawberries on
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Speaker 1: a stick. Kids love food on a stick, they do.
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Speaker 1: She was just like, no, I'll have some juice please,
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Speaker 1: And I'm like, oh god, she wasn't eating cheese. My
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Speaker 1: kid loves cheese. You give them cheese and ham and
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Speaker 1: just like fruit, they love that stuff. You show some
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Speaker 1: fruit and some chocolate and shove it on a stick.
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Speaker 1: Fucking a. But no, they were not going for it.
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Speaker 1: It was it was strange. I mean, they did eat
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Speaker 1: more cake than I've ever seen them eat in their lives.
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Speaker 1: But yeah, it was weird for them. Now I have
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Speaker 1: I have one gripe with Disney though, Disneyland Paris. I
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Speaker 1: don't know what the other disneys are like. I haven't
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Speaker 1: been to them. I'm not rich. I saved and got
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Speaker 1: help to get to this one. And yeah, yeah, my
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Speaker 1: little girl beat us in every single game, every single
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Speaker 1: thing that involved aiming. She's gonna be a sharp shooter.
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Speaker 1: I mean it's ridiculous. Her hand eye coordination is too good.
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Speaker 1: But yeah, Disneyland Paris had a distinct of Clara Bell
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Speaker 1: the Cow. Now, I don't know if you know who
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Speaker 1: Clara Bell the Cow is, but she's like vintage Disney,
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Speaker 1: So she's in Who Framed George Rabbit, And currently you
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Speaker 1: kind of see her in like Mickey Mouse's Clubhouse, Mickey
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Speaker 1: and the Roads to Racers, and sometimes Minnie's Boutique. Now
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Speaker 1: Clara Bell for some reason, it kind of links up
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Speaker 1: with Goofy, kind of because they're tall and lanket, I
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Speaker 1: assume because you know she's a cow and he's a dog.
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Speaker 1: And even though Goofy is a dog, he also has
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Speaker 1: a dog plus a dog. I don't understand this situation.
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Speaker 1: I feel like Disney needs to explain something to me
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Speaker 1: regarding this one dog walking and this other dog being
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Speaker 1: a dog. I'm sure there's a perfectly reasonable explanation for it,
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Speaker 1: doesn't he If someone wants to let me know what
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Speaker 1: that is, that would be super. But yeah, absolutely massive
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Speaker 1: lack of Clara Bell the Count. So I was picking
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Speaker 1: up some Christmas decorations and I've got a vintage sort
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Speaker 1: of Goofy, and I thought I had Donald. I didn't
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Speaker 1: manage to get Donald. I do have Scrooge and Huey
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Speaker 1: Dewey and Louie because the the lamp, the one with
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Speaker 1: the lamp was like one of my favorite like VHS
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Speaker 1: videos to watch growing up. I loved I loved that
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Speaker 1: so much. I would watch it and then rewind it
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Speaker 1: and watch it again because that's the kind of intense,
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Speaker 1: hyperfixating person I am. Yeah, no signs of new divergence there. Anyhow,
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Speaker 1: we were there and there's no Clibel the Cow, and
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Speaker 1: I am just severely just disappointed. Like my little girl
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Speaker 1: she has this denim jacket with like an embroidered mini
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Speaker 1: mouse in the back, and she's like, well, you get one, mummy,
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Speaker 1: And I was like, I'll get on a Clarbel the cow.
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Speaker 1: Want it? Like that's my dream to get like a
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Speaker 1: denim jacket with a clibeyl the cow embroidered on it.
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Speaker 1: Or I've seen people do these painted leather jackets. So
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Speaker 1: I could get one for like my wee girl, I
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Speaker 1: could get one for me. I going for my son.
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Speaker 1: If you want a leather jacket, I'll get my leather jacket.
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Speaker 1: I don't care. But you know, he'd probably get cow
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Speaker 1: ren painted on it because he just loves villains. He
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Speaker 1: loves villains. I don't know what it is. He just
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Speaker 1: has the thing for them and he connects with them
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Speaker 1: on a spiritual level. But I would love like one
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Speaker 1: of those leather jackets with like a painted Claribel the
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Speaker 1: Cow on it. It'd be amazing. I'd love it so much.
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Speaker 1: But yeah, a distinct lack of Clara Bel the Cow
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Speaker 1: in Disneyland Paris like justice for Clara Bell. Please excuse me, Disney,
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Speaker 1: But I know what you're thinking. You're thinking, quit your
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Speaker 1: jibber jabber in fact me, in fact you, I will.
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Speaker 1: But first we're gonna get our source on. Our sources
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Speaker 1: are Murder and Mayhem in the Holy City by Pat Hendrix,
5:59
Speaker 1: Charleston's Past by Georgia Phillips, Sitting Up with the Dead,
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Speaker 1: a story journey through the American South by Pamela Petro,
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Speaker 1: Six Miles to Charleston, the True story of John and
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Speaker 1: Lavinia Fisher, and of course our favorites History dot com
6:19
Speaker 1: and Biography dot Com. I'll see it uncomfortably good. Then
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Speaker 1: let's begin. Now you all know I have been promising
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Speaker 1: you the story of an alleged female serial killer, and
6:32
Speaker 1: seeing as it is December and the season of giving
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Speaker 1: and whatnot, this seems like the perfect time to bring
6:39
Speaker 1: that up, and not because I had nothing else prepared.
6:44
Speaker 1: I have a Christmas special planned, but I am behind
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Speaker 1: on collaborations and other such things. Oh, if you are
6:54
Speaker 1: listening to this on the day of release, you can
6:57
Speaker 1: hear me on the Shite Talk history podcast. And I'm
7:01
Speaker 1: also on news Talk on a podcast discussing the history
7:05
Speaker 1: of gossip. And I think I'm on last week's as
7:09
Speaker 1: well for news Talk discussing the history of Playboy. So
7:15
Speaker 1: I'm getting around, lads, that's absolutely flying. So yeah, go
7:20
Speaker 1: check those out up with the links in the description
7:21
Speaker 1: down below for you. But anyway, back to the alleged
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Speaker 1: female serial killer, and so our story goes to South
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Speaker 1: Carolina because they made two of them. I don't know
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Speaker 1: sometimes how state lines get drawn. They're weird. They cut
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Speaker 1: through places they shouldn't. There is no proper geological reason,
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Speaker 1: socially or physically. For the majority of the time, it's
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Speaker 1: just because it was easier because some fellow had a ruler, right,
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Speaker 1: who's he got the cartographer? Shall he work this out
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Speaker 1: to make this more you know, regionally and socially acceptable,
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Speaker 1: like so we don't harm cultures and mess up land
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Speaker 1: divides that have existed for I don't know Millennia. No no, no, no, no.
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Speaker 1: Benjamin here has a ruler in an HB pencil. We're
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Speaker 1: absolutely flying vetlas. No worries anyway, this story is not
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Speaker 1: about geographical lines. It is about travel, I guess, kind
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Speaker 1: of and death, lots of death, and ah, this may
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Speaker 1: shock you, gentle listener, but a woman who may be
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Speaker 1: wrongly accused. M yeah, I know. We're shocked that this
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Speaker 1: has happened again in history. So that may take you
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Speaker 1: back to the early eighteen hundreds in Charleston, South Carolina.
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Speaker 1: I mean I say Charleston. It's actually six miles outside Charleston,
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Speaker 1: which is important because six miles out of Charleston there
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Speaker 1: was an inn of sorts. It is the six Mile
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Speaker 1: Wayfarer's House. It is named the six Mile way Farers
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Speaker 1: House because again you're going to be very surprised at
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Speaker 1: this information. It is six miles outside of Charleston, South Carolina.
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Speaker 1: There is another sort of boarding house of sorts, a
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Speaker 1: place for weary travelers to rest on their way to
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Speaker 1: or from Charleston. The place where the dance is from.
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Speaker 1: I don't even know if the dance is actually from
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Speaker 1: Charleston or what happened there. But it's a good dance.
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Speaker 1: I could learn any dance I learned the Charleston if
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Speaker 1: I had any physical capabilities whatsoever. I'm so uncoordinated. It
9:51
Speaker 1: is bordering on neglect. So we have this in and
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Speaker 1: another lodging house another mile down the road closer to Charleston,
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Speaker 1: called the five mile House. Very creative. I found the
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Speaker 1: naming of things in the past sometimes very creative. However,
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Speaker 1: it is with the six mile Wayfarer's House that our
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Speaker 1: story begins. Now, this particular area of lodging was quite popular.
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Speaker 1: It was a decent place to stop outside Charleston. Now
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Speaker 1: six miles isn't actually that long. I mean, if you're
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Speaker 1: traveling and you're walking or you're going by a horse,
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Speaker 1: then yet it can. It can be a bit of
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Speaker 1: a bit of a trudge in fairness, especially if you
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Speaker 1: are a person who sells goods, like you know, if
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Speaker 1: you are a trader of any kind. Yeah, and you're
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Speaker 1: karting things with you, but don't have I don't know,
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Speaker 1: a wagon, a buggy, a horse and cart whatever. If
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Speaker 1: it's just you and your damnule or perhaps a camel,
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Speaker 1: you don't know, they could have had camels in South
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Speaker 1: Carolina if they wanted them, it's not the point. So
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Speaker 1: people would be traveling and they'd stop at this particular
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Speaker 1: wayfarer's house because it's decent and it has many charming
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Speaker 1: qualities that men who traveled found attractive. The most endearing
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Speaker 1: of these qualities, however, was one missus Lavinia Fisher and Lavinia.
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Speaker 1: She is beautiful, she is charming, and she's well nefarious,
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Speaker 1: some might say, because here's the thing about the six
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Speaker 1: male wayfarer's house. People often checked in but rarely checked out.
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Speaker 1: Why did I say it like that? I don't know.
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Speaker 1: That was very melodramatic, but it so Lavina. She would
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Speaker 1: greet those weary travelers at the door, and she would
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Speaker 1: bring them into her humble abode. She would be considerate
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Speaker 1: and kind and charm them and get them to discuss
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Speaker 1: things about themselves, to tell their stories, what they did,
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Speaker 1: where they were going, who they were meeting, so on
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Speaker 1: and so forth, almost as if she was kising them,
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Speaker 1: you know, figuring them out for whatever reason. The reason,
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Speaker 1: of course, would be murder and theft. I mean, the
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Speaker 1: theft was the aim of the game, but murder wishes
12:52
Speaker 1: kind of a natural progression of the situation. So after
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Speaker 1: Lavinia allured these men and forced them to divulge their secret,
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Speaker 1: it's via her feminine wiles. She would then provide them
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Speaker 1: with a delicious cup of tea containing a special ingredient.
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Speaker 1: That ingredient, of course, was drugs. Yeah, she'd roofy them.
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Speaker 1: She would give them a special hot beverage in which
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Speaker 1: was poison or kin of some kind of sleeping herb
13:26
Speaker 1: something to knock them out, you know, just to get
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Speaker 1: them incapacitated to the point that they could do what
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Speaker 1: they wanted. And by they, I mean Lavinia and her
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Speaker 1: husband John. Now, in fairness, the poisoning was reserved for
13:42
Speaker 1: people who had anything worthwhile to take. Like they wouldn't
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Speaker 1: just knock them out willy nilly like that, just a
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Speaker 1: waste of good drugs. So yes, once they knew that
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Speaker 1: this fella had enough valuables on them that it was
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Speaker 1: going to be worth pinching them, they'd drug him. He
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Speaker 1: would get tired, and he would retire to his bed
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Speaker 1: in a very special guest room with a bed upon
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Speaker 1: which no one was ever expected to have a full
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Speaker 1: night sleep because this bed had a special lever The
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Speaker 1: bed was customized so that it would sort of become
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Speaker 1: a trapdoor and the person would lie upon it, fall
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Speaker 1: through and then land on spikes, spikes, a basement of spikes.
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Speaker 1: The bed was Jimmy rigged. They just who and drop
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Speaker 1: a sleeping person or I don't know, a poisoned person.
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Speaker 1: It feels like this hasn't been well thought out, Like
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Speaker 1: it feels like a lot of hassle, Like if you
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Speaker 1: have already poison them, can you just strangle them a grot?
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Speaker 1: Perhaps it feels it does feel like a lot of drama,
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Speaker 1: Like is this to show off to somebody? Look at
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Speaker 1: this interesting sort of murder toy? Like people would have
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Speaker 1: trapdoors as a way of protection, and like you don't
15:23
Speaker 1: to drop enemies too, But this, I don't want to
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Speaker 1: say it's overkilled. I mean it is, obviously, but it
15:33
Speaker 1: just seems like a bit much. And I'm all for
15:35
Speaker 1: an extra girl. I am very much extra. I consistently
15:40
Speaker 1: tell people that I am, in fact too much and
15:43
Speaker 1: you just need to accept that. But yeah, this this
15:47
Speaker 1: just seems a little far fetched. I mean, are you
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Speaker 1: really into hinges that much? Do you really need to
15:54
Speaker 1: show off your carpentry skills? To this point. Look what
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Speaker 1: I did, honey, I made a bed that turns into
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Speaker 1: a trapdoor. They really really, that's anyway. So yeah, they
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Speaker 1: would fall into the spikes, and then anyone who's managed
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Speaker 1: to survive both being poisoned and stabbed like fucking resputing
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Speaker 1: John would come in and just finish him off, like
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Speaker 1: because apparently, you know, there isn't such a thing as
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Speaker 1: overkill in this house. But yes, after the person was
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Speaker 1: well and truly deceased, the Fishers would just steal their
16:35
Speaker 1: shit and hoard it like dragons. Sometimes they would sell
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Speaker 1: bits on fence it off. But yeah, that was that
16:44
Speaker 1: was their whole deal. They were a husband and wife
16:46
Speaker 1: doing what they loved, creating intricate death traps and stealing shit,
16:53
Speaker 1: living the dream. I'm kidding, I'm kidding. That's horrible, but yeah,
16:58
Speaker 1: they're they're doing this stuff. And here's the thing about,
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Speaker 1: you know, murdering people consistently over a period of time,
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Speaker 1: is that when people go missing, others start to notice.
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Speaker 1: So people start to investigate, and they're suspicious about how
17:24
Speaker 1: and where these people are going and why so many
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Speaker 1: of them. The last time they were seeing was in
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Speaker 1: the vicinity of the six mile wayfarer's house. So people
17:35
Speaker 1: already have their hackles up. They're getting, you know, a
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Speaker 1: wee bit weirded out by the situation, a wee bit suspicious.
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Speaker 1: And then John People's John is on his way to Charleston.
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Speaker 1: He's traveling in from Georgia. You know, it's a long journey.
17:53
Speaker 1: I'm fairly certain geography not my strong point. So he's
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Speaker 1: traveling in and he's tired and wants to rest, and
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Speaker 1: he comes across this sex my wayfarer's house and he's
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Speaker 1: welcomed in by the beautiful Lavinia, And so he goes
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Speaker 1: in and Levinia tells him that the room isn't quite
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Speaker 1: ready yet, but you don't come in, put your feet up,
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Speaker 1: make yourself at home, have this delicious cup of tea.
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Speaker 1: Don't ask why it smells like almonds. And he goes, mmm,
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Speaker 1: this doesn't seem weird at all. And they're asking him questions. Well,
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Speaker 1: Levini is asking him questions, and he's like, uh, not
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Speaker 1: into this. He's like, that's a that's a lot of questions.
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Speaker 1: You're asking me, specifically, how much money did I bring
18:49
Speaker 1: with me? Why do you why do you want to
18:51
Speaker 1: know how much money I brought with me, like so
18:55
Speaker 1: many questions, like I don't know if you ever sat
18:58
Speaker 1: on a plane next to a seven year old like that?
19:03
Speaker 1: I imagine it's like that, just so many questions, consistently,
19:08
Speaker 1: one after another in a row. So she's asking him,
19:13
Speaker 1: you know, where are you coming from? Where you're going?
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Speaker 1: How much have you got with you? Did you bring
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Speaker 1: any valuables with you? And again but odd And so
19:23
Speaker 1: he's looking at his tea and he's not feeling like
19:26
Speaker 1: he wants to consume this particularly, which is you know,
19:30
Speaker 1: a good idea obviously, and he's starting to get uncomfortable.
19:36
Speaker 1: So when Levinia isn't looking, he just pours out his
19:39
Speaker 1: tea and pretends he's drinking it, like mmm, what a
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Speaker 1: delicious heated, slightly caffinated beverage you have made from Melvinia,
19:49
Speaker 1: lovely proprietor of this establishment. And he hears people moving about,
19:56
Speaker 1: he's kind of wigged outs, thinking this is odd ah,
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Speaker 1: and he's like, are there other guests at this guesthouse?
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Speaker 1: And Lavinia and John are like, no, no one else
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Speaker 1: is here. Don't be don't be ridiculous, that's that's foolish,
20:17
Speaker 1: and he's he's convinced there's somebody else there. It's like
20:21
Speaker 1: there's too much noise happening for us to be alone
20:24
Speaker 1: in Like why would you not want to say other
20:26
Speaker 1: people are guesting in your guest house. That's it's just
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Speaker 1: bad business. And so Lavinia informs him. Then his room
20:35
Speaker 1: is in fact ready and you know, conveniently, and so
20:41
Speaker 1: he goes into the room. When he's again he's really
20:45
Speaker 1: fucking suspicious over this whole scenario because unlike most people
20:49
Speaker 1: who traveled there, he's not an idiot. And so he
20:54
Speaker 1: decides he doesn't want to sleep in the bed. He
20:57
Speaker 1: wants to be prepared in case anybody comes into the
20:59
Speaker 1: room because he's like, they said there's no one here,
21:02
Speaker 1: but there's definitely fucking people here. And so he sleeps
21:07
Speaker 1: in a chair by the door, so instead of being
21:12
Speaker 1: in the bed. So while he's having a little sit down,
21:16
Speaker 1: a little nap, he hears a creek and in the
21:19
Speaker 1: middle of the night, he sees the bed fall through
21:25
Speaker 1: the floor, like right in front of him, and he
21:30
Speaker 1: sees it crash onto the spikes below, and he's like,
21:32
Speaker 1: fuck this for a game of soldiers, and he leaps
21:36
Speaker 1: out the window. Oh and fucking legs it. He is
21:41
Speaker 1: going full forest Gump, running through I don't know, forest
21:46
Speaker 1: and roads and stuff. And he legs it to the
21:50
Speaker 1: authorities because he needs to get people there. He is
21:53
Speaker 1: not having it because that is fucking terrifying. So the
21:58
Speaker 1: authorities they also round up just as many people as
22:02
Speaker 1: they can, as many lawmen, and they head towards the house,
22:08
Speaker 1: six Mile House, and they go in there and they
22:11
Speaker 1: are met with an ungodly stench like they can smell
22:16
Speaker 1: just decomposition, which somehow nobody could smell before this very moment.
22:22
Speaker 1: And when they go into the basement room, they find
22:27
Speaker 1: hundreds and hundreds of remains, just decomposing bodies, skeletal remains,
22:34
Speaker 1: the whole shebang. And so they arrest Lavinia and John
22:42
Speaker 1: and John and Lavinia are taken to jail in Charleston.
22:49
Speaker 1: A priest is brought to them, perhaps a reverend, some
22:53
Speaker 1: kind of holy man. I'm assuming a priest because they
22:56
Speaker 1: mentioned confession, and he begs them to confess their sins
23:00
Speaker 1: and to go to the Lord with a light heart, right.
23:03
Speaker 1: And John is like, I'm sorry we killed these people.
23:08
Speaker 1: You know, we shouldn't have done it. It's you know, whatever,
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Speaker 1: and Lavinia is like, nope, I will confess nothing, I
23:16
Speaker 1: will apologize for nothing, I will do nothing. And John
23:21
Speaker 1: is taken out on his day of execution. He's brought along,
23:27
Speaker 1: the nurse is put around his neck. Short drop in
23:31
Speaker 1: a sudden stop in Lavinya. She steps out, and she's
23:39
Speaker 1: wearing a fucking wedding dress. And she's brought out to
23:46
Speaker 1: the gallows. And there she stands in front of a crowd.
23:50
Speaker 1: I mean I told you she was extra right. So
23:53
Speaker 1: there she is in front of this crowd who have
23:56
Speaker 1: gathered to just watch her die. And she screams to
24:05
Speaker 1: this gaggle of onlookers, if any of you have a
24:10
Speaker 1: message for the devil, tell me now, for I shall
24:14
Speaker 1: be seeing him shortly. And then, without missing a beat,
24:19
Speaker 1: she leaps off of the gallows and hangs herself before
24:27
Speaker 1: the hangman gets a chance. And that is the legend
24:38
Speaker 1: of Lavinia Fisher. But wouldn't you like to know the
24:42
Speaker 1: real story? Of course, as a real story. You really
24:46
Speaker 1: think we're like twenty minutes in. I think we're twenty
24:48
Speaker 1: minutes in. Let me double check we are twenty five
24:51
Speaker 1: minutes in. You really think this is where this story ends?
24:54
Speaker 1: Absent fusolutely not no, no, no, no, no no no. So
24:59
Speaker 1: it's true that Lavinia Fisher had a an inn, the
25:06
Speaker 1: Wayfarer's House, the six mel Wayfarers House, with her husband
25:10
Speaker 1: John Fisher. Now the visuals weren't exactly squeaky clean, law
25:15
Speaker 1: abiding citizens. They were part of a group of highwaymen,
25:20
Speaker 1: or at least they housed highwaymen who would you know,
25:27
Speaker 1: rob some people on this you know, on the path
25:30
Speaker 1: on the road on the way to Charleston, and they
25:34
Speaker 1: would cheat at poker games. And all of these inns
25:38
Speaker 1: in and around Charleston because the inns and the houses
25:44
Speaker 1: they would host poker games because it brought people in,
25:48
Speaker 1: people would buy things, you know, food and other beverages
25:53
Speaker 1: and whatnot. So this was kind of a thing that
25:58
Speaker 1: was you know, known but not known, like an open secret,
26:03
Speaker 1: and it was causing an issue because people didn't like
26:07
Speaker 1: to be cheated out their money. So five Mile House
26:11
Speaker 1: was known to host these sort of dodgy poker games,
26:15
Speaker 1: right and six Mile House obviously nice and close to it.
26:23
Speaker 1: So whispers start getting around about these harrimen and the
26:27
Speaker 1: stuff they're doing, and so this fucking vigilante group forms
26:34
Speaker 1: because they were like, we are sick of this shit.
26:37
Speaker 1: And what they do is they go to five Mile
26:40
Speaker 1: House and they burn it to the fucking ground like
26:46
Speaker 1: it's ash. So they burn it down, and after they
26:50
Speaker 1: burn it down, they head over to the six mile
26:53
Speaker 1: Wayfarer's house and they get there and they tell everyone
26:58
Speaker 1: that they've got to go, and you know, after witnessing
27:03
Speaker 1: five Mile House, you know, turn to dust incinerate in
27:08
Speaker 1: front of their eyes, they think, yeah, you know what,
27:11
Speaker 1: this is a perfectly reasonable thing. We will go. And
27:15
Speaker 1: so everybody, the Fishers, their buddies, they just get up
27:19
Speaker 1: and go. They leave, and the vigilante group they leave
27:24
Speaker 1: this one fella, David Ross, to guard the six male
27:28
Speaker 1: Wayfarer's house to stop the Fishers from returning, because you know,
27:33
Speaker 1: there's a man and a woman and some other men
27:35
Speaker 1: and you're like, yeah, this is gonna stop this one dude.
27:41
Speaker 1: So yeah, they're trying to guard it with this one fella,
27:44
Speaker 1: not even two, just one. Again, feels like we're planning
27:48
Speaker 1: in this whole scenario. But I guess if you've got
27:50
Speaker 1: a vigilante gang, organization is probably not the top of
27:54
Speaker 1: your to do list. But anyway, the very next day,
28:02
Speaker 1: David Ross, he's on guard and some fellows come over
28:07
Speaker 1: and start beating the shit out of him, and he
28:09
Speaker 1: sees Lavinia Fisher come towards him, and he's like, it's
28:13
Speaker 1: the beautiful, lovely Lavinia. She's clearly going to help me. No, no, no,
28:20
Speaker 1: no no. He says that she chokes him, hats him
28:26
Speaker 1: and smashes his head through a window. Now how she
28:32
Speaker 1: managed to do that if two other men were beating
28:34
Speaker 1: him up, I don't know. It again, seems a bit
28:39
Speaker 1: odd for me. It just doesn't add up. But yeah,
28:43
Speaker 1: he's being beaten up by three people and still manages
28:47
Speaker 1: to escape, and so he legs it. And so the
28:53
Speaker 1: sex male wayfarer's house is open for business, and the
28:59
Speaker 1: crooked highwayman and the fishers they're able to return because
29:03
Speaker 1: you know they probably want their shit. You know, you
29:06
Speaker 1: kicked them out their house. Doesn't feel like the worst
29:09
Speaker 1: scenario to me, because this isn't like a lawful force.
29:15
Speaker 1: This is a bunch of random people that just kicked
29:18
Speaker 1: them out their house without any real evidence. Can see.
29:22
Speaker 1: At the time as well, there's this farmer who complains
29:27
Speaker 1: that this cow was stolen and that the cow was
29:30
Speaker 1: stolen by this like big gang you cheered at cards
29:34
Speaker 1: and robbed you in the road. So yeah, but Ross
29:40
Speaker 1: has gone back to town and he has told people
29:45
Speaker 1: of what is going on. He has contacted the sheriff
29:50
Speaker 1: and yeah, well shit's about to go down. So in
29:54
Speaker 1: February eighteen nineteen, the sheriff basically collects a bunch of
29:59
Speaker 1: dudes because he doesn't have a proper police force of
30:03
Speaker 1: any kind, and so he gets again, just a bunch
30:08
Speaker 1: of people like I mean, you could also call this
30:11
Speaker 1: a vigilante group. I mean, apart from the fact that
30:14
Speaker 1: it's been led by, you know, the sheriff. You know,
30:17
Speaker 1: these people have not had proper training. With doubt the
30:20
Speaker 1: sheriff had either, but still, so this big fucking policy.
30:26
Speaker 1: They surround the six mile wayfarer house and they remove
30:31
Speaker 1: the Fishers and four other people from inside. They then
30:39
Speaker 1: set fire to the six mile house. They just burned it.
30:44
Speaker 1: And so as they burn it, they somehow find a
30:46
Speaker 1: bunch of stuff that they claim has been stolen, and
30:50
Speaker 1: they also find part of a cow in an outhouse.
30:57
Speaker 1: If you don't know what an outhouse is, it's like
31:00
Speaker 1: an outside toilet. I know, some places have outhouses, which
31:04
Speaker 1: are just like a little washroom outside. But I think
31:07
Speaker 1: at this point in time it would have been you know,
31:10
Speaker 1: your loo, your toilet. But yeah, so they find the
31:13
Speaker 1: hide of the cow in the toilet, like I mean,
31:18
Speaker 1: I mean, I feel like it's good that they were
31:21
Speaker 1: like waste not, want not and you know, dressed the
31:25
Speaker 1: animal before whatever they did with it, But like, why
31:30
Speaker 1: would you leave a cow hide in the toilet? Like
31:36
Speaker 1: it feels again not like a logical option, because if
31:42
Speaker 1: you've got the hide at that point, it's probably been
31:45
Speaker 1: tanned in some way, It's probably been treated, so to
31:49
Speaker 1: not put it somewhere safe like inside the house or
31:52
Speaker 1: in the secret basement they allegedly had. I mean, they
31:55
Speaker 1: would have had a basement because everyone had a basement.
31:58
Speaker 1: It was just logical. It was a good place to
32:00
Speaker 1: store things, you know. But they just left a bit
32:05
Speaker 1: of the cow in the outhouse. It just I mean,
32:10
Speaker 1: I can't be the only one that thinks this is weird,
32:12
Speaker 1: right you know. So, yeah, they found a bit of
32:16
Speaker 1: this cow, and the farmers like, see, they stole my
32:19
Speaker 1: cowt and so John and Lavinia Fisher are taken to jail.
32:28
Speaker 1: So the police, you know, suspicious as fuck, start digging
32:32
Speaker 1: up around the property, and they found a couple of
32:41
Speaker 1: bits and pieces, a couple of things, you know, taken
32:44
Speaker 1: from supposed guests. And they also found a couple of
32:52
Speaker 1: skeletons on the property. Now, it's the fact that they
32:58
Speaker 1: say skeletons because for remains to become skeletal, like, that's
33:03
Speaker 1: a lot of that's a lot of decomposition. It depends
33:06
Speaker 1: on how skeletally, meaning is there any flesh on them?
33:09
Speaker 1: I feel like I'm asking too many questions regarding this,
33:12
Speaker 1: but yeah, it's like, how did this get to this point?
33:17
Speaker 1: I just remember part of the legend where they're like, oh,
33:21
Speaker 1: we found all of these secret tuttles a mazes underneath
33:26
Speaker 1: the house. It's like, why, Like, having a tunnel I
33:31
Speaker 1: can maybe get you know, especially if you're stealing shit,
33:35
Speaker 1: But like why make mas like that makes no sense
33:40
Speaker 1: because a tunnel is for a getaway for hiding. If
33:44
Speaker 1: you've got a maze, that actually makes it more difficult
33:47
Speaker 1: because you make things more complicated for yourself because you
33:50
Speaker 1: have to memorize a fucking maze. But anyway, John and
33:55
Speaker 1: Lavinia Fisher are taken to the Old City jail and Charleston.
34:01
Speaker 1: So John, what he does is he basically throws the
34:05
Speaker 1: entire gang under the bus. So he starts naming names
34:09
Speaker 1: like he's got names, he's got places, he's got dates.
34:12
Speaker 1: He starts talking about the gang, their criminal activities, everything
34:16
Speaker 1: they did in return for protecting Lavinia. He's like, just
34:24
Speaker 1: you know, he's trying to like save her and protect her,
34:25
Speaker 1: and she's having done of it. She's like, nope, I'm
34:28
Speaker 1: staying with you. And this is this is an interesting
34:32
Speaker 1: part because it is so weird to see a man go, no,
34:37
Speaker 1: I must protect my wife instead of you know, trying
34:41
Speaker 1: to save himself what she could have done. But yeah,
34:44
Speaker 1: the two of them are you know, they don't want
34:46
Speaker 1: to be a part. And so they pleaded not guilty
34:50
Speaker 1: to you know, this very complicated and elaborate murder that
34:54
Speaker 1: they were accused of because they were accused of having
34:57
Speaker 1: the trap door bed, which obviously they couldn't find once
35:00
Speaker 1: they burnt the house down. What did you do, Oh,
35:04
Speaker 1: we just destroyed all evidence. Now you've got to take
35:06
Speaker 1: our word for it, right, And we've only got one
35:11
Speaker 1: lawmaker here, yeah, just the sheriff, okay, And so everyone
35:14
Speaker 1: else is just just a bunch of random dudes. Just
35:17
Speaker 1: a bunch of random dudes. Well that's that's fun. Yeah.
35:24
Speaker 1: So so here's the thing. Nearly a full year passes
35:30
Speaker 1: between them being arrested and you know, they're proper conviction, right,
35:39
Speaker 1: So they're they're in the Old City jail and they're
35:44
Speaker 1: they're actually really lucky. I say really lucky because you know,
35:47
Speaker 1: they're in jail, so that's not that lucky. But they're
35:50
Speaker 1: on this sort of second floor. So instead of being
35:55
Speaker 1: downstairs in the sort of echy bit of the jail,
35:58
Speaker 1: they're a little bit higher up. They're sort of it's
36:01
Speaker 1: kind of cleaner. And John and Lavinya are allowed to
36:06
Speaker 1: be in the same room, like they stay in the
36:09
Speaker 1: same room together, which is nice. I guess that they
36:12
Speaker 1: get to spend all this time together in this four
36:15
Speaker 1: foot by six foot space with a bucket in the
36:19
Speaker 1: corner to pu in. Yes, romance, lads, romance. Now. Allegedly,
36:27
Speaker 1: Lavinia used again some of her womanly whiles to get
36:30
Speaker 1: some comforts to the room, some sheets, you know, things
36:33
Speaker 1: to be comfortable to sleep on, you know, just bits
36:36
Speaker 1: and pieces, just girly things, you know. Now, there's stories
36:42
Speaker 1: that she was shagging guards and stuff just to make
36:44
Speaker 1: things more comfortable. But I feel like if she was
36:48
Speaker 1: doing that well, she would have used her whiles to
36:51
Speaker 1: fucking escape, you know. Just anyway, So there she is,
36:58
Speaker 1: and her and John there for months. So it's like
37:02
Speaker 1: seven months in you know, you know, they've been ears
37:06
Speaker 1: in February and they're getting a bit antsy, and they're
37:12
Speaker 1: at this point planning their escape. So in September they
37:18
Speaker 1: decide that they are going to try and escape the
37:23
Speaker 1: South Carolina jail. They had been sort of chipping away
37:27
Speaker 1: at this window in order to make a space big
37:30
Speaker 1: enough that they could climb out, and they had been
37:34
Speaker 1: collecting their prison linens, weaving them together to form a
37:38
Speaker 1: rope so that they could then escape. And so they
37:43
Speaker 1: do this, or they try to. So John manages to
37:47
Speaker 1: make it out, but as he makes it to the ground,
37:52
Speaker 1: their rope, well, the rope adjacent there rope ish, it snaps,
38:00
Speaker 1: and Lavinya is stuck in jail. She can't get it, Like,
38:04
Speaker 1: there's no way for her to get out of this situation.
38:07
Speaker 1: So when it becomes clear that John has escaped, like
38:11
Speaker 1: there is a man hunt people that are out looking
38:13
Speaker 1: for him, he is public enemy number one. Right, they're
38:17
Speaker 1: all looking for him. But John doesn't get far because
38:22
Speaker 1: he is planning to come back and get Lavinya out
38:26
Speaker 1: because he's not going without her. He could a cross
38:28
Speaker 1: state lines, he get a bucket off, he could have
38:31
Speaker 1: gone to Overgone, but like he didn't, he didn't. He
38:36
Speaker 1: wanted to come back for his wife, and so very quickly,
38:39
Speaker 1: within two days he is recaptured and brought back and
38:43
Speaker 1: then the two are kept under you know, much heavier
38:47
Speaker 1: guard they you know, because they're not a flight risk.
38:51
Speaker 1: So through all this, Lavinia is convinced that they are
38:57
Speaker 1: going to be released. Like, you know, these are real
38:59
Speaker 1: tries orges because like the two bodies or the three
39:02
Speaker 1: bodies or whatever they found on the property, like it's
39:08
Speaker 1: a big enough property. There is no guarantee that these
39:11
Speaker 1: were specifically connected to the fishers, you know, they could
39:14
Speaker 1: have been connected to the gang. But when they go
39:18
Speaker 1: to trial, right, they are found guilty. The jury finds
39:23
Speaker 1: them guilty of highway robbery, which is a capital offense.
39:28
Speaker 1: You stole some stuff, so now we're gonna hang you.
39:33
Speaker 1: I'm not saying the punishment doesn't fit the crime, No,
39:36
Speaker 1: that's exactly what I'm saying. That's exactly what I'm saying.
39:39
Speaker 1: The punishment does not fit the crime in this scenario.
39:43
Speaker 1: So the video is convinced that they are going, you know,
39:47
Speaker 1: to be like overturned like that, this isn't gonna happen
39:52
Speaker 1: because you know, women generally don't really get hung it's
39:56
Speaker 1: not really a thing. And the couple are trying to appear,
40:00
Speaker 1: you know, this decision. They're trying to get it turned around.
40:04
Speaker 1: But in February eighteen twenty, a whole year after they
40:10
Speaker 1: were first arrested, their appeal is rejected and they are
40:14
Speaker 1: both sentenced to death, with their execution being scheduled for
40:19
Speaker 1: later that very month. And so they are brought Reverend
40:25
Speaker 1: Richard Furman and he's put in to give them counsel
40:29
Speaker 1: to you know, hear their last confession, if you will,
40:34
Speaker 1: and John is begging the priest to save his soul.
40:38
Speaker 1: He's gone full question. He's just like, you know, do
40:42
Speaker 1: what you can to save me, to save my wife,
40:47
Speaker 1: like to save our souls, YadA, YadA, YadA. But livignya
40:52
Speaker 1: she's not talking to the priest. She is not interested
40:54
Speaker 1: because there's probably five hundred fucking reasons why she doesn't
40:58
Speaker 1: want to bloody do it. You know, she's waiting to
41:02
Speaker 1: die for something she may or may not have been
41:05
Speaker 1: involved in. Like I've seen this labeled as cruel in
41:10
Speaker 1: many in many documents, it's like Lavinya was cruel. She
41:14
Speaker 1: didn't speak to the priest. Yeah, maybe Lavinya was fucking upset.
41:17
Speaker 1: Have you considered that maybe she was dealing with trauma
41:20
Speaker 1: because she was going face to face with her own
41:22
Speaker 1: mortality for a crime she may not have committed. But yes,
41:27
Speaker 1: the Fishers were taken from the Charleston Jail on the
41:31
Speaker 1: eighteenth of February eighteen twenty and they were brought to
41:36
Speaker 1: the gallows behind the building, and they are dressed in
41:41
Speaker 1: white because remember during this time period, white would be
41:47
Speaker 1: the funeral shroud. It's what would cover her body, you know,
41:51
Speaker 1: upon burial. So John Fisher, he is praying with the
41:58
Speaker 1: minister and he is just he is just leaning into
42:03
Speaker 1: again the whole God situation. And he gives the priest
42:07
Speaker 1: a letter to read out. And so the minister is
42:11
Speaker 1: reading this letter to the crowd of two thousand people.
42:16
Speaker 1: So two thousand people showed up to watch people die
42:19
Speaker 1: because you know, there was no shows on that day,
42:23
Speaker 1: and so he reads out the letter and it basically
42:28
Speaker 1: says that John and Levinya are innocent and they ask
42:33
Speaker 1: for mercy for those who have done them wrong, you know,
42:37
Speaker 1: during this whole process because trumped up charges stuff's against
42:42
Speaker 1: them and you know, the usual ship. So after this,
42:51
Speaker 1: John begins to like beg the crowd, like he's asking
42:59
Speaker 1: them for forgiveness, and he's begging them to like, you know,
43:05
Speaker 1: not kill him and stuff. But of course this does nothing,
43:10
Speaker 1: and John is hung. He's hanged till dead. Now Lavinia,
43:22
Speaker 1: that is a different story. So she completely freaks out.
43:30
Speaker 1: She doesn't want to go obviously, because why would you
43:34
Speaker 1: want to walk to your death? I get it. No,
43:38
Speaker 1: absolutely not, no, thank you, zero out of ten would
43:41
Speaker 1: not recommend. But yeah, she ends up being picked up
43:47
Speaker 1: and bloody carried to the gallows because she she is
43:51
Speaker 1: not going anywhere willingly, and she is fighting, she's flailing
43:56
Speaker 1: her arms and screaming and she is just just going absolutely,
44:03
Speaker 1: absolutely wild. And so she is being pulled up to
44:07
Speaker 1: the gallows and she is shouting it just like the
44:10
Speaker 1: people of Charleston, especially people in those sort of higher classes.
44:17
Speaker 1: She blames all of them for creating this situation. She
44:22
Speaker 1: blames them for her, you know, causing this because like,
44:26
Speaker 1: up until this point, Lavinia was convinced that this was
44:29
Speaker 1: going to get overturned, that people would do the right thing,
44:32
Speaker 1: you know, that someone would save her. But she has
44:36
Speaker 1: just had to watch her husband die, like watch him
44:42
Speaker 1: be murdered in front of her, Like that's her perspective,
44:46
Speaker 1: Like that's what she's seen, and so she is just
44:53
Speaker 1: causing an absolute commotion so that this isn't pleasant for
44:57
Speaker 1: anybody involved and honestly good for her, Like, yeah, that
45:02
Speaker 1: feels that feels appropriate given you know, the information we
45:06
Speaker 1: have at hand. And so she's she's blaming all these
45:11
Speaker 1: people for forcing this kind of conviction on her, and
45:15
Speaker 1: like it gets to the point where she's on the
45:17
Speaker 1: gallows and she's reaching out and her hands are out
45:21
Speaker 1: and at this point, you know, she's going through all
45:24
Speaker 1: the fucking stages of grief and she is begging the
45:28
Speaker 1: crowd to help her, begging them. She's just seeing how
45:35
Speaker 1: she's innocent and she's so desperate in her last moments
45:42
Speaker 1: that she just preaches out for help that is not coming,
45:48
Speaker 1: and they manage to get the noose around her neck.
45:51
Speaker 1: Now this is where I think the leaping comes from,
45:58
Speaker 1: the leaping part of it, because the way this information
46:03
Speaker 1: is given to us, there's no way to accurately tell
46:06
Speaker 1: whether she jumped, or whether she slept, or whether she
46:10
Speaker 1: was pushed. Because this is going to be frustrating for
46:13
Speaker 1: the hangman. This is going to be awkward because she's
46:16
Speaker 1: all wiggly worm in it, and she's just clearly having
46:21
Speaker 1: a breakdown because she is watched her husband die and
46:26
Speaker 1: she's being faced with her own death. And so if
46:29
Speaker 1: she's struggling and they're trying to get the noose on her,
46:33
Speaker 1: she could have easily slept, and that would have been
46:37
Speaker 1: just more horrific for them, you know, because it's somehow
46:44
Speaker 1: sadder if someone dies accidentally, especially when you're seeing her
46:49
Speaker 1: screaming and crying and sobbing and begging. But one way
46:58
Speaker 1: or the other, Lavinia Fisher dropped from those gallows at
47:04
Speaker 1: just twenty seven years old. So throughout this story it's
47:11
Speaker 1: sort of implied. You kind of get the idea that
47:13
Speaker 1: she's older, but like she was arrested at twenty six,
47:18
Speaker 1: like she was so young, But I know, like that's
47:21
Speaker 1: a different time. I don't give a fuck. There was
47:24
Speaker 1: flimsy evidence, it was circumstantial at best, and they just
47:30
Speaker 1: blamed her like it was her fault, it was her
47:33
Speaker 1: womanly whales, you know, she was involved in this gang,
47:37
Speaker 1: Like was she really? Oh yeah, no, they hung out
47:43
Speaker 1: of her house and they fend some stuff to her.
47:45
Speaker 1: That's the way. Shame that. But they're like, oh, but
47:48
Speaker 1: she clearly built this mechanism and she did this, and
47:52
Speaker 1: she poisoned them because she's evil, Like no, and because
47:57
Speaker 1: the fact that she wasn't you know, fourth come into
48:00
Speaker 1: the priest, and because they couldn't handle her reaction to
48:06
Speaker 1: the gallows. This myth spreads because nobody wants to accept
48:12
Speaker 1: accountability for this. They want to just tell a story
48:16
Speaker 1: and make her evil. But like, no, just no, I
48:25
Speaker 1: really wish, you know, just sometimes, just sometimes that women
48:32
Speaker 1: in history don't get completely fucked over by men, Like
48:37
Speaker 1: not just in their lives, you know, because obviously, but
48:43
Speaker 1: in the way that we tell their stories, that we
48:46
Speaker 1: talk about their lives, that we don't mash it into
48:50
Speaker 1: bullshit and destroy the reputations just because they live or
48:56
Speaker 1: act in a way that you are not completely happy
48:59
Speaker 1: with Pale and steel males, you know what, I'm fucking
49:02
Speaker 1: talking about see. Yeah, anyway, she says aggressively. If you
49:09
Speaker 1: liked my retailing of the Tale of Lavinia Fisher and
49:13
Speaker 1: hopefully giving her some of her I don't know fucking
49:19
Speaker 1: history back, then please rate and review of five stars.
49:24
Speaker 1: I'm on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google podcasts, all the places,
49:29
Speaker 1: just everywhere. I'm everywhere. Just do that. You can follow
49:33
Speaker 1: me on the socials. Yes, I just said the socials.
49:37
Speaker 1: I am on I almost said History dot com and
49:40
Speaker 1: biography dot com, but I am not there. I am
49:43
Speaker 1: on whatever Twitter is known as. Now I don't squiggle
49:47
Speaker 1: and adult. I'm on that. I'm on Facebook basically, I'm
49:52
Speaker 1: on Instagram and TikTok. I'm everywhere. Come and say hi,
49:56
Speaker 1: it's fun. Oh so I yeah, I reckon mendation time.
50:01
Speaker 1: I guess is where we're at and I'm gonna recommend.
50:05
Speaker 1: Oh my heart is racing. Oh I'm actually like, I'm
50:10
Speaker 1: quite ill right now. This is no good anyway. Oh. Also,
50:15
Speaker 1: I have a tip chart on my PayPal if you
50:18
Speaker 1: want to just you know, donate money for me to
50:22
Speaker 1: buy books and read things that would be great. I
50:25
Speaker 1: can get books on Kindle for like one fifty and
50:28
Speaker 1: I don't have to buy physical books, which I want,
50:30
Speaker 1: but that's not the point. That would be great, So yeah,
50:34
Speaker 1: if you wanna, if you wanna do that, that would
50:37
Speaker 1: be nice. Ohso uh yeah, recommendation time because I can
50:42
Speaker 1: feel myself needing to lie down and relax. So yes,
50:47
Speaker 1: I'm gonna recommend for watching the home alone movies Want
50:50
Speaker 1: and two don't don't bother with me, just no, no,
50:55
Speaker 1: no no, no Home alone wanting too. It's a package too.
50:58
Speaker 1: I'm sorry you gotta for lessening. I'm gonna recommend you
51:04
Speaker 1: listen to the Shape Talk History podcast. Have fun. I'm
51:07
Speaker 1: on it. I'm great. Probably not as funny as the
51:11
Speaker 1: two professional comedians, but yeah, I'm on that. And if
51:17
Speaker 1: you want to, you should go check them out. And
51:22
Speaker 1: for reading, I am going to tell you to go
51:26
Speaker 1: read a book called Bold, Brilliant and Bad. It's basically
51:31
Speaker 1: about Irish women and history who have been mis labeled
51:35
Speaker 1: and it's fucking awesome. Should go read it. And with that,
51:39
Speaker 1: the room is spending and I'm going to bed you
51:40
Speaker 1: a you okay, ah, adios au revoir? No what is there?
51:48
Speaker 1: My friends? Bye bye