Latest / ContraMinds Podcast - Unlocking Personal Growth and Professional Excellence / Bipindra N.C. on Exploring the Defence Tech Landscape (#018)

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Bipindra N.C. on Exploring the Defence Tech Landscape (#018) · ContraMinds Podcast - Unlocking Personal Growth and Professional Excellence

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: If you don't give them an order, there is no growth for the company.
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_01: The company will die.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_01: So if there are 10 startups that are started, say in a day in India, eight of them fall by the wayside just because they don't have orders at the end of the day.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_01: So that is where this new IDEX and the Startup India Challenge is kind of doing a revolution in the in the in this in the space.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_01: So they are kind of providing an opportunity to a new company which has a new idea and a product, a solution to the problem that the armed forces are facing.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_01: And without asking them what is your experience, they're trusting them and giving them an order.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_01: If they executed well and the idea for a second order, everybody will get more orders from here on.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_02: In this episode, we are in conversation with Tapunda and Speaker.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_02: We had a wide range of discussions with Bitcoin staff on the role of startups, quantum project, and defense tech to the structure of India's difference equal to and the knowledge and skills web to bring to the private sector.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_03: So without any further delay, here's our conversation with Vipindra NC.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you so much, uh Bipin uh for joining us on Contra Minds.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_03: Uh it's a pleasure to have you on the show.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, it is my privilege to be on the show.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_01: I've uh kind of listened to a lot of conversations that you have had with a lot of interesting people and the kind of uh personalities that you choose.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I'm really privileged and I feel humbled to be part of this uh podcast with you guys.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much, uh Swami and Vidnesh for having me on the show today.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_03: No problem, Vipin.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_03: The pleasure is entirely ours.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, before we get into a lot of things about uh defense tech and entrepreneurship in the space and certain policies regarding how it's boosting this entire space, we want to sort of understand what are the origins of uh defense capital because you come from a traditional uh journalism background where you've been in PTI and TOI and Bloomberg.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_03: So, what led to the origins of uh uh defense.capital?
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, my platform defense capital is basically uh evolution that has happened over the years.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_01: I've been doing this uh defense journalism per se for the last 20 years now.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_01: So I started off uh sometime around uh 2020 and then I have slowly gathered.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I don't have a you know defense background.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_01: None of my parents my parents weren't from the armed forces.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_01: I have some extended family members who were from the armed forces.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, probably the inspiration comes from there because I've lived with one of my uncles who was a military officer.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and uh so I had the opportunity to live with him, and then I was schooling there uh with him, and then uh I got to go and visit his military facilities and look at all that.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_01: So I kind of got inspired by that to you know, uh kind of sense spend some time on uh on these issues, but I couldn't join the armed forces uh for various reasons which were beyond my control.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_01: But uh apart from that, I wanted to really, when I got into journalism, I wanted to pursue this as a subject.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_01: So Joe, I started my journalism career from Chennai.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_01: I started off from a very small newspaper called uh News Today, which was an evening uh published in Chennai.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, you know, right when I was there, uh, you know, there were some defense establishments in Chennai which uh kind of invited journalists to cover their events and all.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_01: So I started going from then on.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_01: And then the Indian Express, the new Indian Express uh uh which is published from Chennai gave me the real break to do uh defense journalism uh, you know, from Chennai, and I started off from there.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_01: There are not too many establishments there, very small establishments, small naval uh setup and uh Coast Guard setup and a couple of air bases nearby, including a Coast Guard air station.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_01: So uh that interest started from there, and then I moved to Delhi, uh sorry, to Chandigad to pursue uh defense journalism.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_01: I got a break there in Times of India, uh, where I really got the big uh break and opportunity because Chandigad is a big place for defense journalism itself.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_01: And then I moved to Delhi where the actual defense journal is uh practiced.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_01: Uh there are stalwarts who practice defense journalism for several years.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_01: So uh, you know, you start covering the armed forces, some encounter that has happened, or some policy decision.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_01: So slowly my interest uh you know kind of shifted towards defense business, defense technology, defense policies, which impact industry, which impact businesses.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_01: So, and uh you know that aspect of it uh kind of got uh evolved or matured, uh, should I put it that way, when I joined Bloomberg News as their as India's first ever dedicated defense uh technology and business correspondent for any uh foreign uh uh you know publication uh ever.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_01: So I kind of sort of pioneered that uh that space in journalism where people covered uh defense technology, business, trade, uh bilateral uh diplomacy issues and all that.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_01: So also you know, it aligns with the strategic affairs and uh foreign affairs issues.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_01: So I got to cover those issues also for Bloomberg News for about six years.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_01: So that is where uh my uh interest and everything evolved.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_01: I started understanding business, I started understanding industry and all that evolved there.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_01: Uh that is how uh then the obvious thing is you go independent, you want to go independent at some point, and from there uh germinated the idea of defense capital, which I started uh uh you know just before uh the COVID uh uh outbreak happened uh in January 2020.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_01: So, but it's not been a bad journey, I must say, in the last uh two years.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_01: I've been doing pretty well.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_01: Uh uh for what I expected, I've been doing pretty well.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_01: So that's uh that's how defense capital evolved.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_02: That's interesting, uh Bippin.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_02: Uh uh, you know, as I went through this whole uh area around defense and technology and business, uh one interesting comment that I uh came across was the fact that General Bipin Ravat actually uh used a statement which said modernization cannot happen without involvement of startups.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_02: Uh that was a very interesting comment to be made by a general and uh uh and as I see the developments that are happening in the defense tech and the defense uh world, uh this is a this is a key uh uh turning point that I see in how defense was seen probably a decade or uh you know uh you know, a decade and a half back to how we are seeing it today.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_02: Is that how uh uh you are also seeing it?
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_02: What do you see are the changes that are happening?
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_01: It's a very interesting question, Swami, uh, that you have asked.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_01: I I believe I agree with uh General Bripan Ravat on what he said in this sphere.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_01: See, if you look at uh business itself, so most of the businesses work for the shareholders, they work for profit.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_01: They want to take back money home at the end of the day.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_01: So they look at their bottom lines, so they invest uh money where the business is, where the money is.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_01: So all these large corporations uh per se, if you look at it, I bracket them all together.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_01: I don't uh spare anybody uh in this pier right now.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_01: All of them are putting money where they're see a business, where they see an order coming.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_01: But actually, it is the startups which are actually doing the real uh you know groundwork.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, you know, I remember I mean uh about uh five years back there were about uh 6,000, 7,000 odd uh you know startups that were working in uh the Indian uh defense sector, aerospace and defense.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_01: I club them together because there are a lot of similarities in both the sectors.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_01: There were about 7,000 of them which were working in India, but today it's about 11,000 startups that are working in the sphere.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_01: Look at the growth.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_01: Look at the growth in five years, what has happened uh in five years.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_01: So the uh it's it's actually almost doubled in five years.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_01: Uh uh so okay, you asked about 10 years back.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_01: See, I was covering journalism and I was covering uh defense journalism hardcore uh you know 10 years back.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_01: So that was the kind of time where I was just going uh I mean reaching my peak.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_01: Uh uh then there was not much talk about uh defense business asset, business journalism in the sector, aerospace or even defense sector.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_01: When I talk about aerospace sector, most people think that it's uh synonymous with the aviation sector, but it's not.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_01: Uh the AV uh the aerospace sector is much, much larger.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_01: It's uh the aviation sector is only a subset of the aerospace sector itself.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_01: So uh, you know, from what I have you know looked at, you can say that my evolution is matches with the kind of evolution that has happened or the changes that have happened in the uh aerospace and defense sector itself in India.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_01: Uh probably I was one of those early uh defense journalists in India who uh identified that this is going to be a big, big, big uh you know space in the coming years where uh people will be reporting and talking about it much more, much more uh in a much more uh intense uh way than what they were doing, say 10 years back.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_01: So and I picked up the thread and then I started, you know, uh what do you call it as a ramping up uh by catching that rope and then just ramping up uh down that ladder or up that ladder as you uh you know uh want to put it.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_01: And then I kind of reached where I've reached where I'm now independent and uh I am it's a it's a startup actually, it's a media startup in the aerospace and different sector space.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_01: So that's where I've reached.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so you know that what I told you earlier and what I told you just now, if you just justipose these two together, then you can understand the kind of growth the sector has had over the years, why people are now uh uh talking about it.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_01: Defense journalism is itself is uh changing its nature uh to covering defense business and trade, uh, which I picked up the thread much earlier and I kind of sort of pitched it uh to Bloomberg uh and then joined them as the first ever uh uh defense business and trade uh uh correspondent ever in India working for a foreign financial news buyer.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_01: So that's the uh story of Indian defense startup itself.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I mentioned about sorry, I'm taking too long to answer this.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_02: No, no, I think I think I think this is uh this conversation is a free-flowing conversation.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_02: Uh uh, so therefore, don't worry about uh, you know.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I think the idea is uh some of these conversations go on for long, and uh we just don't have a checklist to say I have asked these 10 questions.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_02: So that's not the way uh you know, I think it's uh the more we talk, we get in-depth.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_01: Correct.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_01: So you talked about uh work that the startups are doing.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_01: See, uh, startups are doing, I I made this statement that startups are doing the real work in the aerospace in different sectors.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_01: Uh you know, established uh small and medium enterprises also uh sort of look at the nuts and bowls uh becoming a tire one, or sorry, the tire two or the tire three or even the tire four supplier, starting from the lowest order of nuts and bowls, and then growing up uh to doing a little bit of uh smaller parts and components, and then doing some subsystems, and then doing some larger systems.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_01: The tire one is the larger systems, which for example, an aero engine is a system, and the aircraft is a system of systems.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_01: So uh, you know, that is that is what uh the tier two, tier three, and tire four are looking at down the order.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_01: Uh whereas startups, startups are doing actual research work, they're putting in money in RD, they're developing products, they are not looking at just you know uh getting a tie-up with some foreign company which already has a product to supply, and then you start getting that technology and the know-how to make it, and then you start making it here.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_01: The what, uh, how and why of it, and then you start uh making it here.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_01: So uh the startups are not doing that.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_01: Most of them are sort of doing some real and serious uh research and development work.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_01: And most of them, uh, I would say, I mean, if if uh startups are listening to the conversation that we are having today, I would like to tell them that please don't focus only on drones.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_01: There are much, much larger, much, much larger opportunity in other areas of different sector, which the startups can look at.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I can give you an example.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_01: Simulators, uh, just uh the other day, just two days back, the government of India, uh, the Ministry of Defense came out with a policy on adoption of simulation for training purposes.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_01: So, which is a great, great move.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_01: Actually, it's a it's a defense capital impact.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_01: We had uh organized event in uh you know in June, July of last year, 2020, uh bringing some of the big generals who have served in different arms, say infantry, the artillery, and other uh you know, arms of the uh services of the armed forces.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and we had a we had a one-day-long trash out on uh the training issues, what are the challenges and what what are the modern uh you know solutions that we can look at because uh see more and more operations are happening around the country in Jammu Kashmir, uh even in the Interland, uh the anti-naxal operations are happening.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_01: So, more and more forces and soldiers and uh even officers are greatly involved in those operations, so they don't get time to uh you know, you know, for training to happen, you need a large space uh where you know, large ground where uh uh there are natural hindrances, natural uh the terrain uh hindrances that I'm talking about that you you know kind of train to overcome, and then you do your war gaming uh you know, sort of a thing.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_01: It's basically an exercise.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_01: Wargaming is a different idea, exercise, physical exercise that you do.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, you know, you require time, you need to take the soldier out of his operations and put him for two, three months in one area to do the training.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_01: Look at the time of the logistics challenge that they have, look at the sort of time challenge that they have, look at the sort of manpower challenge that they have.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_01: You are actually drawing if there are thousand uh members in a battalion, you are just taking out a few people and sending them the way, weakening the strength of the battalion.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_01: So, how to overcome it?
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_01: You have a training center through simulation in your own uh backyard wherever you are uh currently operating, and then you allot one hour, two hour time to each of the and you can do the training faster.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_01: So, simulation technology helps uh that way.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_01: So we uh uh proposed uh certain measures that can be adopted, and finally, the government of India uh I think I played that uh Ramayana Squirrelka Pardon and Ram Sethu.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_01: That's sort of a small part I played.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_01: We did this thing and we submitted uh recommendations to the government, and I'm happy in just about a year's time they made it into a formal policy.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_01: So, simulation is a great uh area for startups to look at.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and uh you know, I I just have to mention some names if it is permitted in your show.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, there is a company in Hyderabad, Zen Technologies, it's again a startup, they were actually into gaming uh you know sector, and then they started uh uh they looked at the defense uh sector as a uh you know good business opportunity and they got into simulation and they won an order just about uh 10-15 days back from the Indian Air Force for one of their uh you know anti-drone technology, but they are a great simulation company, military simulation simulators company.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_01: So that's the sort of uh you know examples we have in India where uh the startups are doing great work uh on the ground.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_02: Interesting.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so what I also read uh Bippin is uh about 68 million dollars has been set up for IDEX, which is really a huge uh you know, almost like a startup capital uh to uh build this uh you know innovation hub as we call it.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, can you talk to us about uh what is this IDEX IDEX?
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_02: Uh what kind of work uh is being uh spruen there?
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_02: Uh what is really the ambition of IDEX and uh what is the kind of technologies that they're trying to encourage and build with uh you know startups?
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, see IDEX is basically uh you know idea that uh the uh the Indian Armed Forces have come up with.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_01: Uh in interestingly, the Indian Armed Forces have started establishing what they call as uh defense innovation centers or uh departments or uh establishments within their the headquarters uh in Delhi.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_01: So uh, you know, I think this idea started about five years back where uh they came up with uh with uh you know defense startup challenge, innovation startup challenge.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so that is what the first uh idea, sometime in uh 20 uh 17 or 18, if I'm not able to recall.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_01: It's about it's about five editions old right now.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_01: The fifth edition is happening this year.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_01: So 2017, uh if if I uh remember the year correctly.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so they started this uh thing to they saw the potential.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_01: That's what I'm talking about.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_01: 7,000 odd startups in the aerospace and defense sector growing to 11,000 uh numbers.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's it's a it's a huge uh jump there in five years' time.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_01: So uh this IDEX was to boost uh these kind of startup activity, which the armed forces saw as the uh the solution to the problems and challenges that they had.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_01: Uh again, I come back to the same statement.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_01: Startups are doing the actual real work.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_01: So, why should they focus on startups?
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_01: Every year they put up some 20, 30 odd challenges that they are facing while they are using an equipment.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_01: The army uses multiple equipment, different countries, different origins.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, some are Indian, some are Russian, some are Western uh equipment.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_01: So as they do, some of them are vintage uh 60s vintage, 1960s vintage equipment, including the MiGs, uh MiG fighter aircraft.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_01: So they come, they face some operational challenges with some equipment or a system or a component or something like that in their uh in the equipment.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_01: So they wanted solutions for those problems.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_01: So this idea of IDEX uh germinated from there.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_01: So first uh I think I remember they uh you know went around uh inter having interaction with some industry people, they brought the industry, which was the first thing that ever happened.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_01: All this happened in the last five years.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_01: So they brought uh the industry people to their centers where you know it's it's very difficult for any private person to enter a military station or a military establishment.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_01: But but they invited the companies which are looking for opportunities uh you know to the military station, should show the equipment and tell them these are my challenges.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_01: Can you resolve them?
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_01: So that is how this idea started.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_01: Uh the IDEX idea started, and uh then they held these uh uh different defense innovation startup challenges where companies came and presented their uh their ideas, their equipment as a solution to the problems that were uh cited by the armed forces.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_01: And uh these were all kind of uh you know held uh alongside the the challenges were held alongside the uh def exphone, the Aero India show that happens in India.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_01: Uh it's a biennial event, uh each are biennized.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_01: Uh you know, alternate years these two happen, uh events happen, big events.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_01: So the the award announcements used to happen there, the winners used to be happened there.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_01: I remember the first uh uh you know defense uh innovation uh startup challenge that happened, there were about 23 odd winners.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_01: Uh you know, for a for aerospace and defense startup, it's a big, big thing to be recognized as a solution provided to the armed forces of the country.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_01: And 23 of them were the proud winners of that uh challenge, and that number is you know growing exponentially in the last five years.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember the the the last uh event that happened in Bangalore uh uh you know earlier this year in 2021, the Airundi show.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_01: There were more than um you know uh hundred odd companies that were participating in this challenge.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_01: So it started off with just about uh you know uh you know 40 odd companies.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_01: So it's kind of growing by leaps and bounds.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_01: It was more than 100 uh number of uh companies that startups that were participating in these challenges.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_01: So it's a it's an exciting space, actually.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_01: Uh it's a it's a you know, I I feel uh uh like a child when I when I look at this uh this kind of development that's happening in the start the startup space in India, particularly in the aerospace and defense sector.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that the childlike excitement is there when I when I look at this uh space and the kind of work that these guys are doing.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's amazing work uh that this these guys are doing.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I think the phase of uh the Indian uh defense sector is going to be uh you know completely transformed uh in the next five years.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_01: I can see that.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: Happening from here on.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_01: So that's that's how this uh you know IDEX idea germinated and now it's evolving into a big, big uh uh uh event annually.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_02: There's an interesting uh article that I was reading uh in the US uh the uh total market size for software as a service, which is a SaaS product, which is about hundred billion dollars.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_02: Uh but the US government uh gave orders for defense equipment, which is about 445 billion dollars.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_02: So the opportunity for defense tech and the market size, if you really crack this market, is pretty huge and it's not small as we speak, right?
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_02: So therefore, uh you know, would you would you kind of throw up the kind of opportunities and the skill because we really talk about unicorns, right?
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_02: But here there's a there's an opportunity to build an unicorn, maybe it won't happen overnight, but the fact that these are huge unicorns that can be built, like the uh you know the ones that are there in the uh you know uh US and France and uh you know the rest of the countries, uh, this can become very huge in terms of size, right?
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_01: Correct, exactly.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_01: Uh in fact, the annual defense purchase in India is about 60 billion dollars annually.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's the kind of amount that India spends.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_01: But uh not all of them go for uh procurements of equipment and uh you know uh services that are required by the armed forces.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_01: So uh the if I uh my estimate is correct, uh uh the capital expenditure is about 15-16 billion dollars, and there is a you know revenue expenditure.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_01: Revenue expenditure you know for the layman uh who's listening to this conversation is basically the uh nuts and bolts uh expenses or a maintenance expense.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_01: So if for example, if you have brought bought a printer for use at home, every one or two months you will buy the uh you know the cartridge, ink cartridge for it.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_01: So the ink cartridge buying is the revenue expenditure, whereas the capital expenditure is the printer itself that you bought initially.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_01: So you know it's in layman tense, I think people will understand what I've just said about uh these two sort of expenditures.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_01: So the$15 billion is the capital expenditure opportunity, and uh the revenue expenditure opportunity is about between eight and ten billion dollars.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_01: So uh that's about uh you know 26 to 30 uh billion dollars is is what the uh defense expenditure annually is worth.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_01: So this the uh startups have a great opportunity here in the sense that of course major expenses go away towards big equipment, say there is a warship that is being bought or a Rafael jet that was bought recently.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_01: So these are all big expenditures.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_01: So these expenditures are staggered over, say uh the delivery schedules that happen.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_01: So once there is a you pay an initial amount and then the deliveries happen and you pay uh you know staggered amounts to cover the total uh you know purchase cost of the equipment.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_01: But where do the startups have opportunity?
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_01: The where the the the solution that the vintage equipment that I talked about, the solution, the new to solutions that uh India needs.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_01: So the there are a lot of smaller opportunities that uh India can cater to, like drones.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, a lot of startups have this fascination for drones because it's obviously it's a great emerging opportunity, it's a dual-use product.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_01: You can uh have payloads which are military, payloads which are civilian.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_01: So uh there is a great opportunity.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_01: I see that as a great opportunity, of course.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_01: But uh there are other areas also where they should need to uh focus and work on when they start doing that.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_01: This uh this market size is going to increase uh drastically.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_01: And uh my estimate would be that India, as of today, would be spending about uh two or three billion dollars annually from startups.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_01: Like I told you, uh Zen Technology is one uh order, anti-drone order, counter drone order from Air Force.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_01: Similarly, there is an another drone maker called uh Idea Forge, which is based in Mumbai, and it's an IED Mumbai uh incubator.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_01: Uh it's a it's a company that evolved from that uh IED uh Mumbai incubator.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_01: And uh that company uh you know has won a couple of orders in the recent years.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_01: Probably they were the first two uh you know Indian startup to sell a drone to the Indian Army.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_01: Uh they had developed a quadruptor which they sold first, and then uh the people saw the opportunity, and you know, everybody started jumping into this drone game that uh that happened.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_01: So that company has again sold another uh drone, tactical drone, uh recently.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_01: So you know there are multiple companies.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_01: Uh you know, New Space is another company from Bengaluru, which has sold again uh the Swarm drone, which is an emerging technology in the drone sector, uh, to the Indian Army.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_01: So the startup companies are bagging contracts.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, the the the Indian Ministry of Defense is not asking what is your experience of delivering or supplying equipment uh before.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_01: Because in all other sectors you see, they will ask you, What's your experience?
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_01: What have you sold before to the government?
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_01: So uh, you know, that was uh you say the the the chicken egg chicken and egg uh question.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so that part has been overcome by this government, uh the Ministry of Defense uh today.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_02: It's an amazing point that you're making.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_02: It's not just drone, there are autonomous vehicles, there are unmanned aerial vehicles, you know, there is AR, there is different defense glass, there is underground drones.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_02: So so many startups uh and I uh you know technologies that are actually fundamentally research-led and deep research led, which is really artificial intelligence, okay, virtual realities.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_01: All these are big, uh big emerging sectors for the startups to work on for uh the defense sector, right?
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_03: So I think uh so when when we look at the defense space, right?
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, by we I mean lay people who read newspapers and get their use of TVs, etc.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_03: Uh they are individual agencies, they know what a DRDO is, they know what's a DRD, they know what is the MIA, etc.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_03: Right, but uh there is very little explanation for how these uh various agencies are actually part of one defense ecosystem, right?
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_03: So, can you give us a lay of the land of how these various agencies are actually working together as one cohesive unit?
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, certainly.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_01: That's uh again a very interesting question that you have asked.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_01: Uh see all these uh okay, we'll go one by one and then I'll tell you how this this uh there is some kind of a cohesion in in their work uh that you see.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_01: As you mentioned, I'll start with uh the DRDO.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_01: The DRDO is basically the RD establishment uh for defense sector in India.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_01: They have uh budgets of about uh you know uh I think about uh uh 10 10 to 15,000 crores annually, 20,000 crores max uh is what they are they have.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_01: But most of it they spend on doing research work.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_01: Uh research work for defense in various sectors, not only the uh Agni missiles and uh the Arjun tanks and stuff like the larger stuff, but also uh you know important areas like uh you know uh life sciences, where what is the kind of uh food that a soldier who's posted in a high-altitude location like CHN should have to ensure that uh his body gets the nutrition because it's very difficult to eat uh you know, and then do your morning ablutions in Siatchin because of the the low temperatures that exist there.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_01: The morning ablutions are a huge pain, uh basically, literally, it's a huge pain.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_01: So uh so they ensure that the soldier eats something to keep his uh energy levels good and also gets nutrition.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_01: So they work on those kind of activities.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_01: There is another agency called as uh you know snow uh research establishment, which is based in Chandigat.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_01: So uh SASE basically works on uh you know the the climate, the uh the living conditions of soldiers and how to improve their uh living conditions.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_01: They have come out with uh the you know uh solar heat, you know, heated uh uh tins which which kind of ensure that you have uh uh conditions where you can you know live comfortably without much much uh the habitat is very important for a soldier when he's posted in a location like Riachan.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_01: So uh that it works there.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_01: So there are you know, I'm showing you the two extremes Agni Arjun tanks, two, you know, the food items and you know clothing and all that stuff.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_01: So that is a wide range of activity that uh DRDO does.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_01: And there are other establishments which are called as the defense public sector units or undertakings.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_01: Uh there are about eight of them uh in the defense sector, which is handled by a department called as Department of Defense Protection.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's one of the departments in the Ministry of Defense.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so that uh uh all these there are uh uh three or four uh you know shipbuilders which are defense public sector shipbuilders.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_01: Mazagoon dock is there, then uh the Hindustan shipyard in Vizaka Patnam is there.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_01: Uh then uh Kolkata has one.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_01: So there are uh four of these uh shipyards, and there is uh aircraft maker in HAL, which is uh Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, then there's uh you know Bharat Electronics, which looks at electronic products and also weaponry.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and then you have BDL, which is Barat Dynamics Limited, which looks after missiles and uh you know the hard-hitting uh weaponry of the Indian Armed Forces, and then uh you have uh also have uh Midani, which takes care of uh the metallurgical challenges that these equipment face.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_01: So they ensure that there are uh indigenously we are able to uh make those alloys, which are quite difficult to do.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's a huge challenge.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_01: They solve those problems and provide uh the material.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_01: And there is also private sector companies, huge large companies like Lazan and Tubro or Tata's, uh then you have Mahindras, uh Adani's are there, then uh Ambani was also interested, but he couldn't pursue it uh much.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_01: So all these uh big names in the industry, then Bharat Forge.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_01: So all of them got into the defense sector, and all of them are uh you know getting to make some uh equipment or the other.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_01: Lazan and Tubro makes warships for the Indian Coast Guard, then it also makes uh uh you know artillery gun, uh self-propelled artillery gun for uh the Indian Army.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_01: So Tatars are going to be making a military cargo aircraft, which they signed a deal for a couple of days back.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_01: So uh I mean yesterday, they signed the deal yesterday.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_01: So so these companies are there, and then you have these uh Zen technology type of SMEs, and then you have startups like IDEA FODs that we talked about, and all the rest of the you know uh the private sector units are there.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_01: So, apart from this, apart from the department of defense production, you also have an acquisition wing in the uh Department of Defense.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_01: Department of Defense is different from Department of Defense Production.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_01: So the Department of Defense usually handles the acquisition part, the capital acquisition part of it.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_01: Uh they take the call, they take the decision.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_01: There is a committee called as the Defense Acquisition Committee, which is chaired by the Minister of Defense.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and it has as members all the armed forces chiefs, the DIDO chief, the secretaries of the departments of uh in the department uh ministry of defense, all the department secretaries.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_01: They're all members of that committee.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_01: They take a call on uh once they take a call, uh they have uh financial powers.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_01: Uh each of them have financial, even the armed forces have financial powers, like the vice chief of each of the force exercise that financial power.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_01: They have a limit up to which they can take a call on a purchase, whether it's a capital purchase, revenue purchase is an entirely different stream of purchase that is done.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_01: So uh similarly, the DAZ has a certain power.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_01: The DAZ is the defense acquisition council.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_01: Then, if it is beyond uh say 2000 crore, if a value is beyond 2000 crore, then it goes to the cabinet committee on security affairs, security, which is chaired by Prime Minister Modi himself and which has uh the defense minister, the external affairs minister, finance minister, and the home minister as the members of the committee.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_01: So this is the overall, and you know, I told you how that's a very simple answer to it.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_01: So all of them, uh, when there is a proposal comes for an acquisition or a development of a product or a technology uh from the respective uh service headquarters or from DRDO, and it goes for approval uh you know, to uh say the Department of Defense Production and then the Department of Defense, and then it goes to the uh Defense Acquisition Council for a decision.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_01: And once the thing is decided, uh then the purchase orders are contract is negotiated and the purchase order is placed ultimately.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_01: So this is the how the entire process works.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_01: So there are uh you know more than 50 uh DRDO labs all across the country, and there is one other very important established equipment called as the Ordnance Factory Board.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_01: Now that ordnance factory board, which was a single unit which had about uh you know another 50 odd uh factories, has been now uh merged together and also uh divided into seven parts and made into uh government-run, state-run corporates.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_01: Now there are seven uh corporate companies which have been formed out of the uh these many uh factories, ordnance factories that they had, and they have done it in clusters or wise.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_01: So one of them will make just the artillery guns, the other one will make only the tanks, some of them will take care of only the clothing aspect of it.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_01: Some of them, I mean, one of them will take care of the clothing, one of them will take care of the um the ancillary items like ammunition manufacturing and stuff like that.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_01: So that is another establishment.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_01: So that comes under the Department of Defense Production along with the defense public sector under techniques.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_01: So this is how the uh landscape uh looks looks like.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_03: I mean another question that I had related to this is so when I compare something like this to say how the origins of a company like Palantir is, right?
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_03: So Palantir, uh for those listeners who don't know, it's a uh big data defense startup based in the United States.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_03: And if you look at the origins of Palantir, it was actually incubated by uh a fund or uh incubator called IncuTel, okay, which is basically the venture capital wing of the Central Intelligence Agency or the CI in the United States.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_03: So the CIA is realizing that we need to use some popular startup techniques like having incubators and venture capital and stuff like that to get services like calantina or antenna up and running, right?
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_03: So, do you think that sort of a model will propel progress in this very young and upcoming and you know rapid growth uh stage that the defense technology sector is in?
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_01: Uh see this kind of uh the systemic comparisons uh cannot be made because uh the the methodology that is adopted by the US in you know taking its decisions on a product development or uh say acquisition is entirely different from what uh India does.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_01: So uh so that is where there is a you know that comparison will be like uh Apples and all exactly to use a cliche.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_01: So uh I mean I wanted to avoid that.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_01: So it's perfect.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_01: So uh you know here uh already there are a lot of policy changes that are happening.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_01: So if you ask me, will there be a systemic change uh where the entire existing uh uh you know uh paraphernalia will be abandoned and then new setup would be uh created, uh I doubt it.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_01: That that kind of a thing won't happen.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_01: So the the best option and the solution here would be for uh India to uh look at its own domestic uh uh you know existing systems and see how they can be improved to propel uh the sectors uh to the kind of growth levels that it wants.
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_01: It's already uh, I'm sure you are aware that uh India wants to do about uh$26 billion worth of uh defense production in India in uh by 2025 and do about five billion dollars worth of uh exports uh during the same period.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_01: So it's a it's an apple task.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_01: Right now it's uh you know the exports are less than one billion dollars.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_01: So so uh you have just about another four years to achieve that.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_01: So if if India can create systems and uh you know design policies uh you know that suit your existing uh bottlenecks and and you know uh try to make it a little flexible and expand the uh the or do away with the bottlenecks at some point in time and allow these companies to grow uh and by giving them opportunities.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_01: See ultimately what what uh is uh is what these companies are looking at orders.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_01: If you don't give them an order, there is no growth for the company, the company will die.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_01: So if there are 10 startups that are started uh say in a day in India, eight of them uh fall by the wayside uh just because they don't have orders at the end of the day.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_01: So that is where this new you know IDEX and the startup media challenge is is kind of doing a revolution in the in the in this in the space.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_01: So they are kind of providing an opportunity to a new company which has a new idea and a product, a solution to uh the problem that the armed forces are facing, and without asking them what is your experience, uh they're trusting them and giving them an order.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_01: If they execute it well and they as idea forge got a second order, everybody else is also going to get more orders from here on.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_01: So uh I just want to just add one small nuance uh to it because it's very important.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_01: See what has happened is earlier, what used to happen in the defense uh space is that uh the companies cannot approach the Ministry of Defense on their own Sumoto and tell them that see, I have this idea, this is a new product which we believe your armed forces, your soldier will be able to use it quite well, and it will help them in their warfighting uh you know effort, and also it will be a good uh preparation for war.
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_01: So let's try it out.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_01: That possibility was not there, that has changed now.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, now so motor companies can approach and the doors are open in the Ministry of Defense uh now uh to accept those applications, those uh those ideas, to uh review them and to take a decision and a call on it, and then uh say, okay, I'm liking this idea, let's try it out.
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_01: So the opportunity is being given.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_01: So that's the kind of difference.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_01: The uh the uh you know 500 uh crore opportunity for the startups.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's a great amazing uh thought process, you know, of allocating C.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_01: Ultimately, what these startups get for their idea is about one to one point five crore rupees each of the startups.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_01: This 500 crore will be distributed among 300 startups.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_01: That's the target that has been set.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_01: So it it's it's a trickle, actually.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_01: It's a trickle for the kind of work that is required, for the kind of investment that is required.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_01: But it's a it's a good starting place.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's where uh that's what I believe.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_01: If I get 1.5 course, defense capital will be much, much different than the object today.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_03: No, I'm asking this because it's really interesting.
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_03: So let's remove the input side of it, at least for the venture side of it.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_03: The other way that I'm also looking at uh a way we can use all the kind of uh systems that have been set up for DRDO and the departments to actually leverage is if I look at some like DARPA, for example.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_03: So if we want to look at the origins of DARPA, it was actually set up to actually combat Sportnik in the USSR in the space space.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_03: Now, while it might be somewhat politically incorrect to say we are in the times of COVID and the increasing influence of China, so the impact that DARPA had also trickled down to a lot of commercial innovations like your GPS and your graphical user interface and the internet as well, right?
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_03: So, is that you see coming down the line where you can have an entity like a DARPA or a DARPA grand challenge or a DARPA fund?
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_03: Like we have the index, it's the first step in that direction.
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_03: But do you see the total for this is actually 24 years down the line, right?
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_03: So, what are you views on something like this is something I would like to ask.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_01: That's uh that's quite an interesting uh thing.
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, uh I'm not sure whether I can share it here because it was told to me in confidence.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, there is a thought process in this regard that is going on right now.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_01: I think uh I can say that.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_01: Uh there are some thoughts uh on uh reshaping the DIDO that's currently going on in the government.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, how how one how it will work out, uh the finer details are not yet uh you know set in black and white.
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_01: So uh it will be premature for me to talk about it at this point in time.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_01: But yes, uh Vignesh, your question is absolutely relevant here.
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_01: Uh there is a thought process where uh probably DRDO will be doing something like what DARPA is doing at this point in time.
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_01: So, and uh and uh you know, most of the technologies that DRDO has developed at this point in time is also kind of uh you know, the technology is transferred to several private sector companies.
• 43:59
  SPEAKER_01: There are Interesting policies that DRDU has, you know, Swamoto implemented of how to freely transfer technology without demanding any royalty from the technology that they uh you know they don't want any money at this point in time, they want the technology to be inquiry.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_01: Be uh be a commercial product which is useful to the armed forces.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_01: And if it has a civilian application, let it also be used in the civilian space.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_01: See the actual question that you have asked, the DRDO is already working towards that.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_01: They have already implemented a couple of policies uh in this regard, and they have also released a list of technologies that are available with the DRDO, which they want to transfer technology free of cost to the private sector to do manufacturing of those products and uh you know profit out of it.
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_01: So uh so that that is happening.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_01: And the the larger question that you asked is a is a little premature uh for me to talk about at this point in time.
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_01: Perfect, not a problem.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_02: Um so my question, uh Bippin, is uh if you really want to do this uh thing that you're talking about, which is uh you know really be at the cutting edge technology, because like what uh Vignesh was talking, saying, you know, uh the origins of the internet itself was from the DARPA, right?
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_02: So therefore that's really how it went.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_02: So one thing that I saw was the ecosystem for that, which is uh collaboration with a university, collaboration with entrepreneurs, collaboration with uh corporations, collaboration with government, collaboration with risk capital.
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, these are the five components that have come together to build that kind of an innovation, right?
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_02: So, uh, is that something that uh is needed?
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_02: And how do you think it should be done?
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_02: And what are your thoughts on how other countries have done it and how should it be done in a country like India, given whatever uh you know uh uh environment and ecosystems that we have?
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, uh the best example of uh this would be how uh the US has done uh you know work in the defense space.
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_01: See the World War II was the turning point in uh the US's uh you know defense sector itself.
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_01: So this DAPA all this evolved and then the technologies were transferred uh to the private sector to you know make them into a commercial success.
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_01: Similarly, uh most I mean almost every uh defense production work that uh that is being done in the US uh is being done by the private sector.
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_01: So the uh many times the criticism that comes, uh I may be deviating from what you asked, but you know, just to make a point here, uh you know what uh the criticism that comes towards the Indian way of doing things in the defense sector is that there is too much of emphasis on the defense PSUs uh that are there, which are government run.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_01: And most of them uh the criticism is they do very shabby work, uh their products are not uh of quality, uh, their work is uh you know uh you know subpar.
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_01: Uh these are the kind of criticisms that come.
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_01: But if you look at the missile technology work that India has done, it's one of the best in the world.
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_01: And of course, it was a spin-off from the space uh sector work that uh the pioneers had uh already done.
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_01: And of course, my guru, Dr.
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_01: Abdul Kalam uh uh you know was a was a great uh thinker in this aspect, and uh he did uh uh you know uh did a lot of pioneering work in that in that sphere.
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_01: But unfortunately, uh what has happened is that some of the criticisms are uh real and they are uh there's there is some uh basis and truth to those criticisms.
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so that that is where the rectification needs to happen in uh you know how India does its things.
• 47:52
  SPEAKER_01: So, as I mentioned, the United States focuses only on the private sector.
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_01: Is that a model that we can adopt?
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_01: Probably yes.
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_01: Probably yes.
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_01: But uh the kind of politics being a democracy, the kind of politics that happens in India doesn't allow this kind of a you know drastic policy change uh that can happen.
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_01: So, what is the way out is a middle path and to uh bring in some amount of accountability in the work that uh these kind of defense PAs use uh you know uh you know they do what the sort of work that they do, the quality needs improvement, the work ethics and the work culture needs a lot of change.
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, you know, you know, interestingly, if you look at the other parts of the world, say Europe, so what has happened in the European uh space?
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_01: Most of the companies, say Italian company or a France-based European company, most of them were government-run companies at some point of time.
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_01: Uh or even Brazil for that matter.
• 48:49
  SPEAKER_01: I'm looking at uh Embraer.
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_01: Embraer was a government-run company which was privatized.
• 48:54
  SPEAKER_01: This happened in Spain, this has happened in uh uh you know in Brazil, it has happened in France, it has happened in Italy, and it has happened in Germany also.
• 49:02
  SPEAKER_01: Most of the government-run uh defense establishments have been privatized at some point in time, and all of them have grown by leaps and bounds.
• 49:11
  SPEAKER_01: So there is always this comparison.
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just for the benefit of your readers, I mean your listeners, I want to say that uh the Embraer was started at the same time as HAL, uh Industrian Aeronautics Limited, but it's it's a it's a 10 times much bigger company than HAL is today.
• 49:27
  SPEAKER_01: So so that's the kind of uh change that has happened.
• 49:31
  SPEAKER_01: Uh you know, some I must credit uh privatization uh you know to be one of the factors for the turnaround that has that Embraer has uh witnessed.
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_01: So probably that is a model that we can adopt.
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, as I mentioned earlier, politics is a big uh uh no uh hurdle that comes in the way.
• 49:50
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, probably if there is some kind of a consensus in the political uh class on uh for the for in national interest.
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_01: So that is when the kind of changes can happen.
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_01: Uh uh, you know, uh the DARPA type of changes can happen, the uh the Lockheed Martins and the Boeing type of changes can happen, or even even the uh you know the Airbus sort of a change can happen, or embraer sort of a change can happen in India.
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's what I believe.
• 50:19
  SPEAKER_01: I think, but they are uh it I I don't want to say that it's a long haul because I'm always an optimist.
• 50:27
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_01: So I I I want to see these kind of changes happening in India, and probably the private sector is doing excellent work.
• 50:35
  SPEAKER_01: For example, uh the Lazan and Tobro has delivered warships uh to the Indian Coast Guard much, much ahead of the delivery schedule that was fixed by the government of India.
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_01: So you know, months ahead of so that's the kind of efficiency that we are showing.
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_01: And uh uh the Indian shipyards are now exporting warships to other countries, uh, some in the Indian Ocean neighborhood, uh, some in South China Sea.
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_01: So that's the kind of uh work that the private companies have started doing.
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, there is another you know, SME which is based in Kanpur, uh it's called as MKU, which makes uh you know uh personal protection kit for soldiers.
• 51:17
  SPEAKER_01: They are a big, big exporter of their products to countries abroad, to Polish forces and military forces abroad, uh to uh Southeast Asian nations, to African nations, some in even South America, some in Europe.
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_01: They have exported the quality uh you know personal protection products to the companies.
• 51:37
  SPEAKER_01: So uh to I mean to uh the foreign countries.
• 51:40
  SPEAKER_01: So that what I mean to say is there is potential for uh changes to happen, potential for uh the private sector to have a greater participation.
• 51:49
  SPEAKER_01: And since they most of them focus on efficiency and getting uh things done in less budget, uh better quality and uh uh on-time delivery.
• 52:02
  SPEAKER_01: I think it will be a great idea to have the kind of changes that we talked about just uh recently.
• 52:08
  SPEAKER_01: If I have not covered anything from your question, you can just repeat it because I just lost that uh thought.
• 52:13
  SPEAKER_02: Uh no, so my my my question really uh was around the ecosystem of working with academia, universities, yes, uh, because there's a lot of fundamental research that happens there, and from there comes in technology which gets adopted by difference, and there is there's something called dual tech, which is uh some are used in military establishments, some are become uh commercial establishments, and that's how innovation has happened in these countries, and that's the kind of innovation uh you know that we need to drive here.
• 52:44
  SPEAKER_02: And uh, you know, what would you think are the frameworks or the push that is needed to get this going?
• 52:50
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, I'll just first touch upon what has happened till now.
• 52:53
  SPEAKER_01: So uh I mentioned earlier also uh IIT Bombay, IIT Chennai.
• 52:58
  SPEAKER_01: Uh there are a lot of other institutions where uh you know uh the defense sector, the defense ministry is engaging with uh with innovation hubs, basically.
• 53:09
  SPEAKER_01: Uh uh incubation centers have been established in most of these institutions today where there is joint collaborative work that is happening.
• 53:19
  SPEAKER_01: DRDO is doing some part of that work.
• 53:21
  SPEAKER_01: DRDO has established chairs in some of these academic institutions, technology institutions, uh, where some kind of work is happening.
• 53:28
  SPEAKER_01: Uh the idea forge, uh which I kept mentioning earlier, came out of uh such a hub.
• 53:34
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, you know, the all these startups are coming out of those hubs.
• 53:40
  SPEAKER_01: I think they have a huge potential to work on uh different sectors that we talked about, not just focusing on drones.
• 53:48
  SPEAKER_01: So that will provide the opportunity for uh for uh you know this the two-way flow of information, two-way uh flow of thought, two-way flow of ideas, and also ultimately, I mean the academic the academic sector cannot uh academia cannot do production work.
• 54:07
  SPEAKER_01: So what germinates from uh this collaboration between the government establishment and the uh the incubation centers and the uh academia can flow into the private sector, uh which can ultimately come out with a commercial product and make it a commercial success.
• 54:24
  SPEAKER_01: The academia also it's a win-win-win situation for all the three uh three sides.
• 54:29
  SPEAKER_01: It's uh so basically they get the academia gets its royalty, the government gets the equipment that it wants, and the you know, the commercial establishments uh get their bottom lines right at the end of the day.
• 54:41
  SPEAKER_01: So that's the you know uh kind of uh win-win-win situation that uh uh this can throw up.
• 54:47
  SPEAKER_01: Usually they call it as public-private partnership, they should make it as public-private and academia partnership.
• 54:53
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 54:54
  SPEAKER_01: So that's where the winning formula is.
• 54:57
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 54:57
  SPEAKER_03: So I'll just I'll just switch gears a little bit.
• 55:00
  SPEAKER_03: I think uh you know, uh recently there was an agreement between the Indian Navy and Flipkart about uh hiring veterans uh into the organization.
• 55:11
  SPEAKER_03: So one of the questions I had was uh you know, what are your thoughts?
• 55:15
  SPEAKER_03: Because it's a it's a very popular trend in the West where veterans who have served in the military come back and advise corporations and stuff like that.
• 55:23
  SPEAKER_03: So a question would be my question to you is you know, what do you think is the experience and the knowledge that a veteran actually brings to private corporations?
• 55:33
  SPEAKER_01: See, the veterans are uh already trained the manpower that exists.
• 55:38
  SPEAKER_01: They have huge skills, they not only have uh security skills, they also have secure you know uh interpersonal skills, they also have leadership skills, they also have administrative and managerial skills.
• 55:51
  SPEAKER_01: So all these skills are already imbibed in them while they are you know getting trained or performing their role as uh soldiers and officers in the armed forces.
• 56:00
  SPEAKER_01: So it's it's actually a great idea for uh, and also I mean it's a fact that uh most of the the soldier rank officers uh retire eng.
• 56:08
  SPEAKER_01: They retire, come out of the force when they are 35, 36, 37.
• 56:11
  SPEAKER_01: So that is the age when they come out and they have 15 or uh you know more years of productive uh life in this in the in the civil civil streets, as they call it.
• 56:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so uh it's a it's a great uh opportunity, but this is not a new idea.
• 56:27
  SPEAKER_01: What Flipkart and uh the Navy has done now is not a new idea.
• 56:32
  SPEAKER_01: This the there is a separate department of uh ex-servicemen welfare in the Ministry of Defense, which takes care of this, and there is also a department of uh ex-servicement settlement.
• 56:43
  SPEAKER_01: So you know these departments work on uh you know this area of providing opportunity beyond their service life, uh armed forces service life, uh, thanks to all their services that they are performing, uh they're doing to this nation.
• 57:00
  SPEAKER_01: So there is uh there are schemes.
• 57:03
  SPEAKER_01: There are also entrepreneurial schemes that uh the these departments that I talked about offer uh to these ex-servicemen who retire.
• 57:12
  SPEAKER_01: So uh the private sector has benefited.
• 57:15
  SPEAKER_01: See, uh we talked about academia, right?
• 57:18
  SPEAKER_01: So IIT Madras has hired a former lieutenant general to take care of the incubation center that they have, uh you know, in technology areas.
• 57:29
  SPEAKER_01: So look at the kind of contribution that this general will be making because of his experience having served in the armed forces and having practical experience of using equipment, finding what is the and jugad.
• 57:42
  SPEAKER_01: There is a term in Hindi called as Jugad.
• 57:45
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know in Tamil what is the term or in other languages what is the term that is used.
• 57:49
  SPEAKER_01: Uh but that jugad is a great uh thing that the Indian military has adopted at every stage when they face the problem in the in the operational areas.
• 58:01
  SPEAKER_01: They have a problem with the rifle, they immediately do a jugad and ensure that it's firing, it continues to fire at the enemy.
• 58:08
  SPEAKER_01: So uh these are all innovations, please.
• 58:11
  SPEAKER_01: People might call you know uh it's a very ridiculing statement calling it as a jugard, which is a very colloquial term of saying that it's a it's a raw uh you know solution that you find.
• 58:22
  SPEAKER_01: But actually, it's not, it's a it's it's an innovation that uh these uh military minds have done.
• 58:27
  SPEAKER_01: So he's bringing that kind of expertise that the I the mindset to find solutions to problems which are military.
• 58:36
  SPEAKER_01: So that is what he's imbibing in the students uh who want to do some uh research work and do some uh startups from these in uh incubation centers that they're doing.
• 58:46
  SPEAKER_01: So uh that way, and also I know a lot of top uh former officers who are directors in companies and uh in defense companies in India today, uh, including the Boeing Defense India's uh managing director is a former naval officer, uh, admiral rank or rear admiral rank officer.
• 59:07
  SPEAKER_01: So they've add a lot of value to these aerospace and defense companies in terms of their uh ideas, in terms of their experience, in terms of their knowledge, uh in terms of the skills that they bring to the table.
• 59:20
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 59:20
  SPEAKER_01: So it's it's a great uh uh you know uh partnership that that they can have by hiring them to write.
• 59:27
  SPEAKER_03: Vivin, I think uh we are running short of time.
• 59:30
  SPEAKER_03: So I just want to ask one last quick question before we move to like a rapid fire phase.
• 59:34
  SPEAKER_03: So it's just some general thoughts.
• 59:36
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, this is largely in terms of when when uh you're a student and you're entering university, right?
• 59:43
  SPEAKER_03: And especially this is within the context of engineering education in India.
• 59:46
  SPEAKER_03: What do you think of a culture that we have within the engineering education complex where there is a lot of preference for computer science?
• 59:55
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not saying computer science is bad, I'm not saying electrical engineering is bad or anything, over something that's in nuclear engineering.
• 1:00:02
  SPEAKER_03: So, what are your thoughts on computer science, which is very important being overvalued than a nuclear engineering which is significantly undervalued when we are talking about a world where everybody is just focusing on drones right now?
• 1:00:14
  SPEAKER_03: I think nuclear is also a space where we need to focus.
• 1:00:17
  SPEAKER_03: So, what are your thoughts on uh this uh hierarchy of sorts?
• 1:00:22
  SPEAKER_01: Uh Vignes, I agree with you on that uh completely.
• 1:00:25
  SPEAKER_01: I think uh I mean I must I must admit that I was not able to convince my son to take up triple E as an option in his BTEC uh he went and chose computer engineering.
• 1:00:35
  SPEAKER_01: So the minds are working uh you know towards that uh sort of a thing these days.
• 1:00:41
  SPEAKER_01: Uh see what has happened is uh the um the student uh I'm maybe Swami and uh me are from uh that era where uh I'm sorry Vignesh, I don't know your rate, so I don't want to comment on it, and your appearance doesn't look as though you just can't get a college.
• 1:01:04
  SPEAKER_01: So uh you know our our times I believe uh people did choose varied uh you know technology subjects.
• 1:01:13
  SPEAKER_01: Most of my students, classmates, I'm a science science student.
• 1:01:16
  SPEAKER_01: I took science uh in school uh in 11th and 12th.
• 1:01:20
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so most of them chose uh different technological streams to study, and uh some of them left that completely and then studied economics at a later stage or business management and then went into uh business, you know, managing businesses and or becoming uh uh financial advisors in uh in investment companies and stuff like that.
• 1:01:41
  SPEAKER_01: So uh that said, what I think is that this kind of uh fascination for computer science is not a good thing at all.
• 1:01:50
  SPEAKER_01: Uh you know, you need to invest.
• 1:01:52
  SPEAKER_01: I I think probably the government itself should there is an intervention that is required from the government side of you know uh telling uh Indians these are the areas I need people, these are the areas where I need skills, these are the sectors where I need uh there has to be some kind of uh uh you know study that is taken up, and then uh the requirements are put forth in a proper data format.
• 1:02:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, uh, and also limit to the number of admissions that happen to the computer engineering or computer science, and then allocate students based on their merit to different categories.
• 1:02:27
  SPEAKER_01: Suppose probably the nuclear engineering requires a much more hard work that is required.
• 1:02:32
  SPEAKER_01: So uh probably biotech uh needs even more uh you know hard work that needs to be done by the students.
• 1:02:38
  SPEAKER_01: So probably the side sort of an effort is required.
• 1:02:41
  SPEAKER_01: Probably the government is the best uh agency to do this uh, you know, sort of uh figuring out what is the requirement and allotting uh seats you know accordingly.
• 1:02:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so that uh that sort of an intervention is definitely required.
• 1:02:55
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I was hoping the new education policy would throw up some of that sort of a thing, but uh I didn't see anything of that sort there.
• 1:03:02
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, that's that's a thought uh that I have on this subject.
• 1:03:05
  SPEAKER_01: So uh I I completely agree with you on this.
• 1:03:08
  SPEAKER_01: We need engineers in all uh you know engineering streams, not just in computer science.
• 1:03:13
  SPEAKER_03: Awesome.
• 1:03:14
  SPEAKER_03: So, Bippin, thank you so much.
• 1:03:15
  SPEAKER_03: That concludes the formal part of the interview.
• 1:03:17
  SPEAKER_03: So we'll now move the rapid fire questions.
• 1:03:20
  SPEAKER_03: So quick answers.
• 1:03:21
  SPEAKER_03: I think we have five minutes to go.
• 1:03:23
  SPEAKER_03: So we want to get the most out of you within these next five minutes.
• 1:03:25
  SPEAKER_05: Sure, certainly.
• 1:03:26
  SPEAKER_03: So my first question to you, Bippin, is what are some of the books that have influenced you the most in your life?
• 1:03:33
  SPEAKER_01: That's a tough question, actually.
• 1:03:35
  SPEAKER_01: I I uh Steve Jobs book.
• 1:03:40
  SPEAKER_03: So the Isaacson biography.
• 1:03:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:03:43
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:03:44
  SPEAKER_02: So that is that is some that is uh Bippin, my question to you is uh what does the word successful mean to you?
• 1:03:52
  SPEAKER_01: Successful is basically effort.
• 1:03:56
  SPEAKER_01: That that is what it means.
• 1:03:57
  SPEAKER_01: You you need to put in an effort.
• 1:03:59
  SPEAKER_01: I agree I agree with one of your uh previous uh uh you know participants that uh you know it's not just about uh you know success or failure.
• 1:04:09
  SPEAKER_01: Even if you take some effort, you know, and then you know that okay, this effort I put in, it didn't work out, it's fine.
• 1:04:15
  SPEAKER_01: You learn some lessons there and then you move on and do something else.
• 1:04:18
  SPEAKER_01: So effort is always important.
• 1:04:20
  SPEAKER_01: Uh uh, you know, but you know, that fortitude is required for you to uh make the judgment of uh you know when when you need to stop the effort.
• 1:04:30
  SPEAKER_01: So that's effort is what success success is for me.
• 1:04:33
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 1:04:34
  SPEAKER_01: So this is my second venture, by the way.
• 1:04:36
  SPEAKER_01: Wow, after a failure of my first venture.
• 1:04:40
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 1:04:41
  SPEAKER_03: So so my next question is if you could invite four guests for a dream dinner, who would they be and why?
• 1:04:48
  SPEAKER_01: Uh Prime Minister Modi, uh Rahul Gandhi, um, then Vivek Lal.
• 1:04:56
  SPEAKER_01: Vivek Lal is uh General Atomics' CEO.
• 1:05:00
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and uh probably I would invite a Ratan Tata.
• 1:05:05
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, that is that is very interesting.
• 1:05:09
  SPEAKER_03: What are three or four things that you would recommend to a uh a young person entering university today?
• 1:05:15
  SPEAKER_01: Uh you know, basically uh uh they need to be smart and uh what they want to do, they need to have a fix on what they want to do.
• 1:05:24
  SPEAKER_01: Uh most of the students, uh, you know, I I don't know how many both of you speak Tamil, I hope.
• 1:05:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:05:31
  SPEAKER_01: So uh in Tamil Nadu, if you ask an angster, which have has been an experience for me when I traveled there, I said, What do you want to so?
• 1:05:38
  SPEAKER_01: They say Jali Argunong.
• 1:05:41
  SPEAKER_01: What do you want to do in the future?
• 1:05:43
  SPEAKER_01: Jali Argunga.
• 1:05:44
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's the answer that I get.
• 1:05:46
  SPEAKER_01: I said uh how stupid can the answer get?
• 1:05:50
  SPEAKER_01: So that was the thought that I of course I didn't tell that boy.
• 1:05:54
  SPEAKER_01: But that was the thing that came to my mind.
• 1:05:56
  SPEAKER_01: So is that your aspiration?
• 1:05:59
  SPEAKER_01: So uh Instead of saying that okay, I want to do this, not I want to become this, I want to do this.
• 1:06:07
  SPEAKER_01: So uh so that my advice would be to do something in life.
• 1:06:11
  SPEAKER_01: Uh you know, have a have an ambition and work towards it, be smart and look at uh you know, you should be like a coin dropped into a you know still water, it takes the the quickest possible way down uh to the bottom.
• 1:06:25
  SPEAKER_01: So you know that's what a student should look at.
• 1:06:29
  SPEAKER_01: What is the quickest possible way for me to achieve something or do something in my life?
• 1:06:34
  SPEAKER_01: So that's what they should look at and start working towards that.
• 1:06:38
  SPEAKER_02: My next question is uh what's the best piece of advice uh weapon anyone has ever given you?
• 1:06:45
  SPEAKER_01: The best piece of advice is uh you know never to regret anything.
• 1:06:50
  SPEAKER_01: So that was uh what my father told me.
• 1:06:52
  SPEAKER_01: So I so that is the best advice I ever got.
• 1:06:55
  SPEAKER_01: So I've never regretted anything in my life.
• 1:06:57
  SPEAKER_01: Whether it's uh whether it evolved as I wanted it to be, or whether it failed, or it never happened as I wanted it to be.
• 1:07:05
  SPEAKER_01: I've never regretted anything.
• 1:07:06
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a happy person because of that.
• 1:07:09
  SPEAKER_01: Great.
• 1:07:10
  SPEAKER_03: So, Vipin, my final question to you is uh who is someone whom you would like to see as a guest on Contraminds in a future episode?
• 1:07:22
  SPEAKER_01: That's a great question that you asked me.
• 1:07:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um I would suggest you should uh uh you know probably call uh Dr.
• 1:07:31
  SPEAKER_01: Ajay Kumar, who is the defense secretary of India.
• 1:07:36
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 1:07:37
  SPEAKER_02: Great.
• 1:07:38
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks, thanks, Bipin.
• 1:07:39
  SPEAKER_02: Uh it was a fantastic conversation.
• 1:07:42
  SPEAKER_02: We had a great time uh talking to you, and I do hope uh you had a good time talking to us, and thanks for sharing your uh you know uh depth of experience on this whole uh rather not covered topic about different startups, different tech, and how this operates.
• 1:08:00
  SPEAKER_02: And uh thanks a lot.
• 1:08:02
  SPEAKER_02: It was a privilege talking to you, and thanks for taking time and talking to us.
• 1:08:06
  SPEAKER_01: The sentiment is mutual Swami and Vignesh.
• 1:08:08
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I really enjoyed this conversation.
• 1:08:10
  SPEAKER_01: This is something, a conversation that uh not many people have with me.
• 1:08:15
  SPEAKER_01: Uh despite the kind of I mean, of course, within the sector people do, but not outside the sector.
• 1:08:20
  SPEAKER_01: So I really enjoyed this conversation.
• 1:08:22
  SPEAKER_01: Your questions were incisive.
• 1:08:24
  SPEAKER_01: Probably, you know, there is a you know, I saw in one of the naval training academies.
• 1:08:29
  SPEAKER_01: Uh uh there are no stupid questions, there are only stupid answers.
• 1:08:34
  SPEAKER_01: So I believe my answers were stupid, and uh uh you know, thank you for this opportunity to be with you.
• 1:08:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I enjoyed your show, and uh, I hope your show grows and grows and grows, and a lot of people come and watch it because you're doing fabulous work uh from what I've seen.
• 1:08:49
  SPEAKER_01: And I'll be uh one of the regular uh listeners of your program.
• 1:08:53
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for the opportunity.
• 1:08:54
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you so much, Bitpin.
• 1:08:55
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you so much for your time and thank you so much in general.
• 1:09:05
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks for listening to this episode.
• 1:09:08
  SPEAKER_02: For selected links and detailed to not visit www.contramines.com slash blog.
• 1:09:16
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• 1:09:22
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• 1:09:27
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• 1:09:29
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• 1:09:32
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• 1:09:39
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks for listening and stay safe.