Latest / Nightmare Success In and Out / Innocent - charged with murder- finally freed- Kenneth Nixon

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Innocent - charged with murder- finally freed- Kenneth Nixon · Nightmare Success In and Out

• 0:01
  What happens when your worst fear becomes your reality?
• 0:04
  Hi. I'm Brent, Cassidy.
• 0:05
  Welcome to the nightmare success in and out podcast, where we
• 0:08
  explore a, how to overcome your fears.
• 0:11
  And Nightmares is set yourself free.
• 0:13
  We're going to be exploring this topic with guys that was in
• 0:15
  Leavenworth with and others who survived their own nightmare.
• 0:20
  These stories can be inspiring. Sometimes sad, there's some
• 0:24
  humor but hopefully you can come away with a nugget of something
• 0:27
  that will help you knock down some of the prisons.
• 0:29
  You Built up in your own mind. All right, now I measure success
• 0:35
  in and out listeners. We are back and man and we got a
• 0:38
  good one to unpack here today, for those who a few.
• 0:43
  I don't know, it's been probably a couple months ago.
• 0:46
  I had a kid Nixon. Marvin cotton Junior, Derek
• 0:49
  Anderson, they were in town in St.
• 0:52
  Louis to help support Lamar Johnson and he's since been
• 0:58
  freed by the way, which is a fantastic.
• 1:00
  Sixth thing, if anybody followed that in the st.
• 1:02
  Louis area. But Ken was on and we had a
• 1:06
  panel discussion about people who are exonerated and Ken has
• 1:11
  just one heck of a story. He did 16 years out of a he was
• 1:16
  sentenced for life without parole.
• 1:18
  I think they gave him two licenses, just to make sure that
• 1:21
  punctuated it, but he just never gave up and he's doing really
• 1:26
  good things. Now that I want to unpack with
• 1:29
  him. I was just telling for we got on
• 1:31
  that. I was just kind of getting more
• 1:34
  and more agitated. The more I read through his case
• 1:38
  last night and it's just one thing after another thing after,
• 1:41
  you know, you get the, you get the jailhouse snitch and there's
• 1:44
  all kinds of reasons why that's bad.
• 1:46
  Then you've got the witness a changes, his story two or three
• 1:49
  times and then you've got the lead detective who says in a
• 1:51
  memo that it we've got the wrong guy but they just proceeded.
• 1:54
  Anyway, we're going to unpack all this.
• 1:56
  This is this is a story that you wonder how in the world are.
• 2:00
  Not this far out of whack, but then to have, and I was telling
• 2:04
  Ken before we got on, he's got, he's such a great voice and he's
• 2:07
  doing great things. He's only been out since 20:21.
• 2:10
  He's already making an impact for people who've been
• 2:12
  incarcerated, making their lives easier and getting out.
• 2:16
  He's working with legislation on doing that too and he's carrying
• 2:19
  a lot of responsible titles to use his story.
• 2:23
  Use his experience to make things happen before we unpack
• 2:27
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  Tell them, Brent, from Nightmare success, sent you.
• 3:20
  All right, let's jump into this guy's Ken necks and welcome.
• 3:26
  Thank you ma'am. So like I said, Ed can I reading
• 3:32
  through your story and the nightmare that you went through?
• 3:36
  It's just I think it's probably everybody's nightmare.
• 3:40
  I can't imagine a worse nightmare of not having any
• 3:44
  idea. Mining your own business being
• 3:48
  at home, you know, you own a house.
• 3:51
  You've got a kid, you just started a new job.
• 3:54
  You got a new business, you started and then boom, your
• 3:57
  whole life changes. It's the worst kind of change in
• 4:00
  the whole world because when it happens you don't even know what
• 4:03
  it is. But before we get into all that,
• 4:07
  let's unpack a little bit. What?
• 4:11
  Ken growing up can, you know, being a kid and going to school?
• 4:15
  What? What was your life before this
• 4:17
  nightmare happened? What was going on with you?
• 4:22
  Prior to this happening. I was pretty average American
• 4:28
  kid. I guess.
• 4:29
  You can say two-parent household.
• 4:31
  Middle class, magnet schools for much of my school age career.
• 4:40
  I got bored writer somewhere between 10th and 11th.
• 4:42
  Grade school, wasn't challenging me.
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  I literally finished school with 11th grade credits.
• 4:49
  I've never even bought a father Director sir, myself, the 12th
• 4:52
  grade credits. It was just, I mean it wasn't.
• 4:55
  It wasn't appealing to be anymore.
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  At that point, like somewhere between 9:10 9th 10th and 11th
• 5:01
  grade. It just started to get boring.
• 5:03
  It wasn't the challenging in any kind of way.
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  I felt weird because I wasn't being challenged in school.
• 5:09
  My parents didn't have an answer so I was like, no other screws.
• 5:12
  Cool. My actually, at that time, the
• 5:16
  GED test was a five-part test. I took the first three parts I
• 5:21
  didn't know when I when I call it the schedule is that it was a
• 5:24
  two-day test. So I went the first day thinking
• 5:27
  I was going to do all five parts.
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  I got there. They told me.
• 5:29
  No, you can only do three today into tomorrow.
• 5:32
  So excuse me. Actually, I took the three parts
• 5:36
  didn't know that. I had passed them until later.
• 5:38
  All I never went back the second day to take the last Parts,
• 5:43
  prior to that. After that bottle of that, I
• 5:47
  started my own towing company College, was something that I
• 5:50
  always wanted. To do.
• 5:52
  I was never really a troubled kid.
• 5:55
  They thought it had a lot of run-ins with law enforcement
• 5:58
  besides traffic tickets. You know, I was like the kid
• 6:02
  with the left foot. Yeah, and access your car.
• 6:05
  So you know, I was driving all over the place, doing everything
• 6:07
  I could caught a bunch of traffic tickets but never
• 6:10
  actually made it to the courtroom.
• 6:14
  Beyond that. Once I started my company, that
• 6:17
  was my focus and then my son game and 2004 and you know, that
• 6:24
  was really where my mind was, you know, making sure that this
• 6:28
  business got off the ground, making sure that my son was fed
• 6:30
  and taken care of just really trying to build a platform for
• 6:36
  him to kind of take off and be secure and his future.
• 6:40
  Well, you know it's interesting to.
• 6:43
  Can you work very old to me? 19 years old, I mean, you're
• 6:45
  starting a business. You've Got A kid, got a new
• 6:49
  house, you know, really kind of set in your way to take off.
• 6:57
  Can you lead us through the when the nightmare happened for you?
• 7:03
  Yeah. So yes you are correct.
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  I was really young. A lot of people around me.
• 7:10
  What always, praised me for being ahead of my time by
• 7:13
  thinking in the way that I did hang around with quite a few
• 7:19
  older people that were very friendly with information,
• 7:23
  right? Nobody withheld information.
• 7:25
  They were all willing to coach me and guide me.
• 7:27
  When I ask questions, they were willing to answer if they didn't
• 7:31
  have the answer that, show me how to get it which is, you
• 7:33
  know, How I got the house and how I got the company.
• 7:36
  It was people around me that walk me through those processes
• 7:39
  willingly right willingly to make sure that I had what was
• 7:43
  necessary to build a solid foundation for myself, my
• 7:47
  family, the night of the incident and it's ironic that
• 7:53
  the name was the podcast is nightmares, her success is it
• 7:56
  was literally a nightmare at the crime happened at night.
• 7:58
  I was asleep. It was a normal day, you know,
• 8:02
  that, that prior They was a normal day for me, working
• 8:05
  really hard. I have my son with most of the
• 8:08
  day we were towing cars and people fixing flats and you know
• 8:12
  just yeah being the service provider that I had set out to
• 8:16
  beat and I go home at the end of the night, you know, it's again
• 8:21
  a normal night and I fall asleep and the very next morning I wake
• 8:26
  up to a loud noise and before I realized that there was an
• 8:30
  assault rifle and people with tactical gear, In my home, you
• 8:34
  know right was pointed at me, that was the beginning of the
• 8:38
  nightmare. What in the world was going
• 8:41
  through your your mind? I mean, I know not, you know,
• 8:45
  knock the world down, any replace, everybody's asleep.
• 8:51
  You know you've got your it was I think if I remember was your
• 8:55
  it was your son and your girlfriend, the three of you in
• 8:58
  there? Yes.
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  What in the world, would you? What were you thinking?
• 9:03
  Panic immediately. Yeah, the the way the house was
• 9:07
  structured, the bedroom that we were sleeping at was not far
• 9:11
  from the front door. I mean there's a wall dividing.
• 9:14
  So, you know, you have to go around a wall to turn door to
• 9:17
  the living room area, but the front window of the bedroom
• 9:22
  face, the front porch. So, as people come up the stairs
• 9:26
  to the front porch, you could hear the footsteps approaching,
• 9:31
  you know, I'm from Detroit. You know it's dark outside.
• 9:34
  You like, whoa, wait, what's going on?
• 9:35
  But you know, everything happens so fast you literally it was
• 9:40
  boom from the door crashing in. You delete just hear people
• 9:44
  screaming and before you know I could react or anybody could
• 9:48
  react the bedroom. Door comes swinging open and
• 9:50
  there's a person standing there with an assault rifle.
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  So before you can even realize, or let the Panic set in, there's
• 9:58
  somebody there with assault rifle pointed at you.
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  I can't imagine the adrenaline and, and So you're probably
• 10:03
  wondering intellect, where's your son?
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  What's the, you know, the whole thing would be?
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  Just I don't even know. You know, that you see some of
• 10:13
  that stuff on TV, but I can't imagine something like that
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  happening in real life. Not having any idea at all.
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  I mean, it's different if you would have been in some kind of
• 10:26
  weird situation, or a bar fight or something, and then somebody
• 10:30
  shows up and does some you, you were just in a normal situation
• 10:35
  going to bed, getting ready to get up to go to the next day and
• 10:38
  and all of a sudden an assault rifles.
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  So what's the next Steps that happen.
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  It's sort of back to your question real quick.
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  You ask, you know, as the Panic is same as my son was on my
• 10:52
  chest. Oh, when, when they came in and,
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  you know, instant reaction, that that parental reaction was to
• 10:59
  tell him. Yeah, exactly.
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  So as I went to turn, you know, I went to wrap my arms around
• 11:05
  him and turn, you know, by that close the door.
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  I heard the first officer that came to the door.
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  He started screaming, baby, baby, baby.
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  Baby. And he like step to the side in
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  a female officer came past and she literally like, took my son
• 11:21
  out of my arms with one hand. And with her other hand, she
• 11:24
  pulled me down to the floor. And when she pulled me down to
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  the floor, she handed me off to that first officer and they
• 11:30
  drugged me literally by my wrist, from the bedroom, into
• 11:33
  the living room, where it was more open space and that's how I
• 11:37
  was arrested. They didn't tell me what I was
• 11:39
  interested for you know I had no idea what had happened.
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  In the hours leading up to this. So I was completely clueless to
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  why all this was taking place at that particular time.
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  So it's probably be worst nightmare that anybody could
• 11:57
  think of, I went to sleep normal, everything was fine.
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  You know, house full of people, I was good and then you wake up
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  to something so tragic. Well I knowing and unknowing and
• 12:10
  the when do you You find out what they're doing to you, is it
• 12:16
  happened in the police car? Is it happened at the police
• 12:18
  station? Because it's a whole rific thing
• 12:19
  that happens. Yeah.
• 12:21
  Oh I didn't find out until I was officially arrested and the back
• 12:25
  of the cop. Okay, what's crazy is they had
• 12:29
  already notified the local media that I was arrested prior to me,
• 12:34
  even being arrested. They had already told the media
• 12:38
  that I was arrested some. So as I was being loaded into
• 12:41
  the back of the car, the person, Turn on the radio was talking
• 12:44
  about me being arrested and I was completely clueless to,
• 12:48
  again what had happened in the hours leading up to this.
• 12:51
  So I was so confused and I'm asking, you know, the officers,
• 12:55
  what's going on? What's going on?
• 12:57
  And as we pulled away, the driver says, just listen,
• 13:01
  they're talking about you on radio and that's how I found
• 13:04
  out, you know what happens and then once we made it down to the
• 13:08
  homicide department is when you know, the officer started
• 13:11
  talking to me and Explain what happened, you know, the night
• 13:14
  before. So you knew the people that were
• 13:18
  involved in this the night before situation of it.
• 13:21
  As I as I understand reading through, there was a good friend
• 13:26
  of yours that you're grown up with.
• 13:29
  He had had an affair with your old girlfriend.
• 13:32
  Is that correct? My friend, mom?
• 13:35
  Yeah. Your son's.
• 13:35
  The one that was an output. Yeah.
• 13:38
  So there was, you know, obviously a from what Now I get
• 13:43
  from reading is its two friends that kind of went at each other.
• 13:48
  As you would you know, two really good friends and then you
• 13:51
  you guys kind of hassled each other back and forth and they
• 13:54
  decided, hey, you know, we're not talking word, were you go
• 13:57
  your way? You go your way and we'll get to
• 14:00
  avoid each other. Is that kind of what happened
• 14:02
  with you guys? Yes, that is exactly what
• 14:05
  happened. You know, for all the obvious
• 14:07
  reasons, reasons there was some friction between us what Despite
• 14:12
  all of the friction. No one would ever hurt right.
• 14:15
  There were some property damage, there was some aggressive words,
• 14:17
  sort each other. There were some aggressive body
• 14:19
  language and you seen each other in public but no one would ever
• 14:22
  hurt. No one was ever harmed in any
• 14:24
  kind of way there was never any violence done to either the bus
• 14:30
  and and eventually we got to a place where, you know, we just
• 14:33
  decided, you know, what to stay away from me that came about by
• 14:37
  the influence of people around this race.
• 14:38
  Some of the older people the People that cared about us both
• 14:42
  you know talk set us down both and talk to us, talk to us.
• 14:47
  Hey listen you know you guys are tripping.
• 14:49
  So once we you know what we had that tongue-lashing front of
• 14:52
  people around us we both kind of came to that conclusion.
• 14:55
  You know what you know they're right.
• 14:57
  We need to just stay away from each other, right?
• 14:59
  And that was the conclusion, we came to well.
• 15:03
  So If I understand what happened that night, that you got accused
• 15:09
  of and they never dropped. It was, is that there was
• 15:14
  someone that showed up in a car, got out through a Molotov
• 15:18
  cocktail, which is really, I guess a bottle with the that the
• 15:22
  thing at the end, I guess they put a cloth in it, so that it
• 15:25
  catches fire and then threw it into the house, the house
• 15:27
  catches fire. There's, I forget how many
• 15:30
  people in there and I think I forget how old the baby was 10
• 15:38
  months old, or whatever. And then there was another child
• 15:42
  that died and I think three or four people got out of the
• 15:44
  house. So, I think that is that and
• 15:47
  then is that kind of how that transpired as far as how they
• 15:51
  built that. How that is that that happened?
• 15:57
  Yes. Okay.
• 15:58
  So when do they, when do you know what happened?
• 16:01
  Like when do they explain to you, like we've taken you out of
• 16:04
  your house with We've arrested you we've blasted it all over
• 16:07
  the media. How long is it until you've?
• 16:11
  You know, are talking about this and you realize that hey that
• 16:15
  somebody's put me in this mess. It was several hours.
• 16:20
  Later the the crime happened just before midnight, I think it
• 16:25
  was like the reports written it, like 1155, or something, that's
• 16:28
  when the call came in. And I didn't actually find out,
• 16:34
  you know, what, I was being officially arrested for until
• 16:37
  baby noon. The next day, I have been in
• 16:41
  custody for hours before they actually told me what happened.
• 16:44
  So, I was completely oblivious to the facts lead, Up to the
• 16:49
  crime, in my arrest, I had no idea that any of that had taken
• 16:52
  place the night prior. Furthermore, I didn't even know
• 16:55
  what a Molotov cocktail was. I had never even the thought
• 17:00
  never crossed my mind. I never been explained.
• 17:03
  You know what? That was?
• 17:04
  I had no idea what it was, so that made me even more confused
• 17:08
  when they told me, you know, this is how the crime happened
• 17:11
  like, yeah, right, impossible. I don't even know what to say
• 17:14
  how to make one of those. Right?
• 17:16
  Exactly. Like like, what is that and And
• 17:18
  you know, they had that point I think is when they began to sort
• 17:21
  of lock in on. Oh we may or may not have made a
• 17:26
  mistake, but we've got about, you know, by this point.
• 17:29
  They'd already released to the media that I was in custody, so
• 17:32
  they had to stick to the story that they'd already told the
• 17:34
  public. So how does your mom dad,
• 17:37
  siblings and everybody? When are you able to make
• 17:41
  contact with them? Are you able to howdy?
• 17:45
  Are you able to connect with them at all, through all those
• 17:47
  hours? As of being in this situation
• 17:51
  locked up at the police station. No.
• 17:54
  I wasn't able to call someone and till I think like later that
• 17:58
  night after I was arrested, there were, there were several.
• 18:01
  There was a series of events that happened several different
• 18:04
  officers that I talked to quite a few people.
• 18:09
  Quite a few people were involved before.
• 18:13
  I was able to talk to anybody, you know, for my family related
• 18:17
  to the incident. But you know by that time I was
• 18:20
  all over the news at that point. So everybody that knew me was
• 18:24
  fully aware of what had transpired several hours
• 18:27
  earlier, right? So your parents and everybody
• 18:30
  that you know is seeing this on on TV on the radio crackling and
• 18:35
  exactly just as shocked as you are.
• 18:36
  And he Here it is. So did you obviously you knew it
• 18:42
  was some point? Hey this is really this is
• 18:45
  really bad. Did how did you go about getting
• 18:48
  somebody to defend you? It was it was a weird experience
• 18:56
  because none of no one in my family had ever been in any
• 19:00
  serious trouble before. So we had no idea what to do who
• 19:04
  to talk to what the difference between a good lawyer in a
• 19:07
  battle or was we had no idea and and what a lot of people don't
• 19:12
  realize is once you're in the system, everything is based off
• 19:16
  of a time schedule. So, you know, not knowing Us at
• 19:21
  a disadvantage because we had no idea where to start counsel was
• 19:26
  appointed to be and once he was appointed as that was the first
• 19:30
  time that I had a lawyer, you know, he came he talked to me
• 19:34
  and that first interaction is when I tried to explain to him
• 19:40
  over and over again. Like I have no idea about this
• 19:43
  crime, anything, I think it took him a minute to believe me but
• 19:48
  eventually he came to a conclusion where he knew that I
• 19:50
  I was telling the truth and by that point we were already sort
• 19:54
  of at a disadvantage because of the things that led up to that
• 19:58
  encounter. Yeah, well you had the narrative
• 20:00
  out in the public, you know, they back the power of the
• 20:04
  press. Once they take off on that path
• 20:08
  is almost an impossible thing to stop coupled with the
• 20:12
  prosecutor. You know you have two of those
• 20:15
  things going. At the same time a defendant,
• 20:18
  you know they always say, you know what you walk into A
• 20:21
  courthouse innocent till proven guilty.
• 20:24
  But I'm not a big believer that one, I think people because they
• 20:29
  they hear things and the narrative is built.
• 20:34
  If it's a if it's a case of people know, people assume that
• 20:38
  there's no reason why they would have spent this time.
• 20:40
  I brought this person in here, if they didn't have reason to
• 20:42
  believe that they did this. And so I think most everybody
• 20:45
  thinks that when you walk into a courtroom and your then, You're
• 20:51
  proving a negative and I think that's one of the biggest
• 20:54
  misunderstandings, especially on something like murder.
• 20:57
  You know, you're you're walking in being charged with a murder
• 21:02
  and that's you can't get a worse crime than that and you're
• 21:05
  walking in and I don't care. If they say you're innocent till
• 21:08
  proven guilty or not. There's a lot of people in that
• 21:10
  room, they think. Well, they must have the right
• 21:12
  guy. They wouldn't have spent all
• 21:13
  this time. Bringing him in here and put in
• 21:16
  this case together. Yeah, I've met that's that's
• 21:19
  that's what we're talking growing up, right?
• 21:21
  We're taught to trust the police.
• 21:22
  We're taught to to trust that the system gets it, right?
• 21:26
  We're taught that, you know, the police do their job effectively
• 21:29
  every single case, right? If you add, you mix that in with
• 21:33
  what we see on TV. Sometimes it's really hard for
• 21:36
  people to get that out of their minds that the police make
• 21:39
  mistakes. And you, when you add in, as you
• 21:42
  said like the media element, right?
• 21:44
  The media plays a big role and the way The system processes
• 21:49
  people because the narrative that the media is telling is
• 21:53
  that they have the appropriate suspects in custody already.
• 21:57
  So, you know, they leave, no doubt for people that don't know
• 22:01
  the difference, they leave, no doubt that the right person has
• 22:04
  been arrested so journalism. Definitely plays a heavy role in
• 22:07
  the influence in the way. People view the system for sure
• 22:10
  it does. And it's very hard for them to
• 22:12
  make a U-turn, both of them, you know, both the prosecutor or the
• 22:17
  media. They have a very hard time
• 22:18
  making that you turn once they put themselves out there if I
• 22:22
  remember, right. Can this stuff happened, fast?
• 22:24
  I mean, you, you went in and, and correct me if I'm wrong, was
• 22:29
  it? Like, six months later that you
• 22:31
  were in the courtroom being sentenced to life in prison?
• 22:35
  Did it happened that fast? Yes, it was actually less than
• 22:38
  six months less than six months. That's even more unbelievable.
• 22:43
  Yeah, it was, it was from. So I was arrested on.
• 22:46
  May 19. And I was found guilty on
• 22:50
  September 21st. Wow, by October 12th, I had been
• 22:54
  sentenced on October 12, 2005. I was sentenced to two natural
• 22:58
  life sentences plus 40 or 60 years two days.
• 23:02
  After that I was shipped off to the Michigan Department of
• 23:05
  Corrections. Well, and I mean, for some of
• 23:09
  those who know that have listened to this program, Marvin
• 23:12
  cotton jr. Darryl would senior can Nixon.
• 23:16
  I think there's like 30 T6 or maybe more now because of the I
• 23:23
  think it's called a conviction, it's the Wayne County
• 23:26
  conviction, Integrity unit and working with other people in the
• 23:29
  industry projects, have released that many people are overturned
• 23:34
  that many convictions of wrongly convicted people in the system
• 23:38
  of Michigan. And one thing I wanted to bring
• 23:43
  up his well let's back up a little bit.
• 23:46
  That happened so fast when you went and you knew you were going
• 23:51
  to trial, did you? How did you feel about your
• 23:54
  representation? What was happening?
• 23:57
  What was because that's not a lot of time to prepare for
• 24:01
  something that you're going to trial for what was going.
• 24:04
  How are you feeling? Manic Panic uneasy.
• 24:10
  I'm sure, you know, all of these things are running through my
• 24:14
  head because I didn't know the process, right?
• 24:18
  I've never been introduced to the process of going through the
• 24:22
  system and for my first time to ever have to go through the
• 24:26
  system for is to be a murder case.
• 24:28
  I was terrified, I was feeling extremely uneasy because You
• 24:34
  know, as a person that's innocent, I don't think anybody
• 24:37
  could ever feel like you've got, your application is doing
• 24:40
  enough, right? As long as I'm locked in this
• 24:42
  cage for something that I didn't do.
• 24:44
  I never felt like he was doing enough.
• 24:48
  I didn't know the difference between enough and not enough.
• 24:50
  Yeah. But my head as a kid it's that
• 24:53
  level of uncertainty that comes with facing the murder
• 24:56
  conviction. It's something that I can't.
• 25:00
  It kind of leaves you in a space of so much uncertainty.
• 25:03
  In my life was literally being handled by someone else and
• 25:09
  every decision that he made was for my life for you.
• 25:13
  I had no control over what was happening.
• 25:15
  I had no say-so at what was happening.
• 25:17
  I had no understanding of what was happening.
• 25:20
  It was just, it was a difficult thing to do with.
• 25:23
  Did you take the stand and the, and the trial?
• 25:29
  No, I was I was advised against it.
• 25:34
  My attorney at the time he was I want to say that he was doing
• 25:39
  the best he could, but I don't know the difference between sure
• 25:43
  Bethany. And not right.
• 25:45
  So I felt like I felt like he was doing what he could, of
• 25:51
  course, naturally. Do I feel like he could have
• 25:52
  done more? Absolutely great.
• 25:54
  I was sent to prison for a decade and a half for a crime.
• 25:56
  I didn't commit. So there's always room for
• 25:58
  improvement when that happens. But, you know, it's a, it's a
• 26:02
  difficult, it's hard for me to say that.
• 26:07
  He wasn't doing his best at that particular time based off of the
• 26:10
  information that was provided to write all this information that
• 26:13
  got me out with stuff that we uncovered later on that he
• 26:17
  wasn't provided with at the time after which everybody probably
• 26:22
  here's one time or the other is sculpt ettore.
• 26:24
  Evan is a supposed to be turned over to the defense that they're
• 26:27
  looking at the same information that the prosecutor is and time
• 26:32
  and time and time again, doesn't happen.
• 26:36
  There's a interesting. I think I just watched the other
• 26:39
  night I just called the Innocence man that John Grisham.
• 26:42
  It's a Netflix series and these guys just didn't turn it over.
• 26:46
  I mean, and they even did it one step further, it's the police.
• 26:52
  They kept a big pile of stuff and then they turn so much over
• 26:56
  to the prosecutor and the prosecutor then.
• 26:57
  Turn even less over to the defense.
• 26:59
  So they even had a system with that that they finally
• 27:03
  uncovered, you know, years later.
• 27:05
  But It's the problem with that whole system is can is that you?
• 27:12
  How do you know, how do you know if you're getting everything?
• 27:15
  I mean you finally found out you know, because you continue to
• 27:20
  uncover what you didn't have but you don't know when you're in a
• 27:24
  situation like that. If you have all the information
• 27:26
  that was supposed to be turned over to you, that would be
• 27:28
  helpful to your defense. Yeah, I mean, it's the defense
• 27:32
  is always at a disadvantage when you're relying on the other side
• 27:35
  to provide you With the information necessary for you to
• 27:38
  be effective. I think the system has this
• 27:42
  desire right now. It puts every defendant at a
• 27:44
  disadvantage as long as the government has full control of
• 27:47
  the information. Then you're at a disadvantage
• 27:50
  because there's no incentive for them to turn it over to you.
• 27:53
  Exactly. But that's just the reality of
• 27:56
  The system, right? They have no incentive to give
• 27:59
  you what necessary for you to win, right?
• 28:01
  So, I think it and, you know, those those risks are heightened
• 28:07
  even more when it comes to capital crimes, such as murder
• 28:10
  armed robbery, you know, so attempted murder.
• 28:14
  If they have even more incentive to withhold information, to make
• 28:17
  sure that they secure the way right there, get to drive,
• 28:20
  right? Exactly.
• 28:21
  That's a difficult situation to be in and you No.4.
• 28:28
  Someone again as someone that's innocent to have to go through
• 28:31
  that process you know how do you how do you Rectify that in your
• 28:35
  mind that they're cheating to win?
• 28:38
  Literally they're cheating to win.
• 28:40
  Yeah. And you're already in a bad
• 28:41
  situation and then exactly then you're not getting all the
• 28:44
  information needed to find yourself.
• 28:46
  How long did the jury? You know, once everything in the
• 28:49
  closing arguments? How long did you have to wait to
• 28:52
  hear your faith? The jury deliberated for, I
• 28:58
  think two days. Almost a full two days before
• 29:02
  they came back with the verdict. Yeah, I can't even imagine
• 29:05
  waiting two days to find out. I'm going to go to prison
• 29:09
  forever. I was terrified.
• 29:12
  Those two days were longer than probably every day prior to
• 29:16
  excel. Yeah, because you never know,
• 29:19
  you never know. Okay, so can you walk into the
• 29:23
  room? They Call you back in.
• 29:24
  They say the jury's decided that made and you stand before the
• 29:28
  judge and they read off that it's guilty and then you're
• 29:34
  sentenced. And this is your life.
• 29:38
  What what does that feel like? I would know, actually, by
• 29:44
  completely no to everything. That was happening at core is
• 29:47
  sort of like a blank space. Once that first guilty verdict
• 29:50
  came out, it was just nothing else mattered at that point,
• 29:53
  right? The first charge was murdered
• 29:55
  and I'd already. I mean there's you can't get any
• 29:59
  worse than the life sentence. So everything else that came
• 30:01
  after that was a blur. It is it even if it had no
• 30:04
  meaning to it whatsoever? I was still busy trying to
• 30:07
  process the first guilty verdict.
• 30:09
  Yeah. And didn't even hear the other
• 30:10
  ones. Okay, I want to unpack the whole
• 30:16
  thing of you going into prison, how you basically came to you
• 30:20
  understanding the law and never giving up and on your 14th year,
• 30:26
  you know being picked up and and the Innocence Project helping
• 30:30
  you. But I want to real quick, take a
• 30:32
  break here, recognize our other sponsor here.
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  crisis resolved. Okay.
• 31:49
  Can you find out? You've got two life sentences
• 31:53
  plus another 40 60 years just to top it off.
• 31:57
  They immediately take you. Here's something that I thought
• 32:01
  I was talking to my wife about last night.
• 32:03
  That I think a lot of people don't even really contemplate.
• 32:07
  But like, when I was reading through your stuff, I'm
• 32:08
  thinking, this is just a normal guy and he's thrown into this
• 32:12
  world and he has to figure it out immediately while he's in
• 32:16
  jail. Where does he go, who does he
• 32:19
  talk to and then you get sentenced to life.
• 32:22
  What people, I don't think contemplate is is you're not
• 32:24
  going to Camp. You're not going to someplace.
• 32:29
  You know, that might be an easier, you're going it.
• 32:32
  You're a murderer. Convicted of murder wrongly,
• 32:36
  accused innocent, man going into the toughest place that they can
• 32:39
  send you. I can't even imagine walking out
• 32:46
  of your world as as a dad starting a business, a 19 year,
• 32:52
  old kid that's already bought a house.
• 32:53
  That's getting is why I started. And the next step that you take
• 32:56
  is being put in the worst violent situation, as a wrongly,
• 33:01
  convicted murderer. How do you walk into that?
• 33:06
  Totally confused. Totally confused.
• 33:10
  It took me months to really process what would happen.
• 33:15
  I don't probably the first six, seven months being inside, I
• 33:19
  didn't even come out of my room, besides the shower and use the
• 33:23
  phone. I didn't even come out.
• 33:25
  It was just, it took me a while. To really process what was
• 33:29
  happening. I couldn't understand how the
• 33:32
  system could get it. So wrong.
• 33:33
  Right. We're not, we're not talking
• 33:35
  about about a drug case or a jaywalking case, you know, armed
• 33:40
  robbery. We're talking about something
• 33:41
  that literally insured me death inside of a cage for a crime
• 33:46
  that I had no concept of no understanding of how to commit.
• 33:50
  So, going into prison, there's all sorts of fears that are
• 33:56
  running through your mind. You know what we hear on TV
• 33:58
  about prison, and what we hear in the media about prison, you
• 34:02
  know, all those thoughts are running through your mind as a
• 34:04
  kid, all right? I was I hate at that point.
• 34:06
  So you know, I'm walking into a situation where what can be
• 34:11
  considered all of society's worst are here and it just it
• 34:17
  took me a while to really understand what was happening.
• 34:22
  And you know, to this day, I still don't understand why.
• 34:25
  But it's just such a It's so overwhelming and consuming to be
• 34:31
  in the situation that, you know what?
• 34:33
  I don't understand to. You know, now I'm in a jungle,
• 34:37
  literally a jungle where your guard is up, paranoia's up at
• 34:41
  all times. It's hard to sleep because you
• 34:42
  don't know, you know, who you're in a room with or what's going
• 34:45
  to happen. The moment, the door opens, it's
• 34:48
  just a, it's a horrible environment and Ken did they
• 34:51
  know of you as you came in. I'm thinking that you probably
• 34:54
  weren't Anonymous When you entered into the that.
• 34:57
  Risen because your case was probably something that had been
• 35:00
  around on TV and other places where you did people know of you
• 35:04
  as you walk through those Gates. There were there were a few
• 35:07
  people that recognize me from. You know the media from
• 35:11
  newspapers there were a few people as I walked in here.
• 35:15
  Yeah so looking at life in prison but knowing that you're
• 35:21
  innocent man. You know, I was reading some of
• 35:26
  your stuff that you would just like try to consume everything,
• 35:28
  you know, whether you're reading about how to get in touch with
• 35:32
  people or watching things on TV and trying to get in touch with
• 35:34
  them and reading newspapers and all these things.
• 35:39
  At that point did were you were you work?
• 35:43
  Like were you on your own doing your thing?
• 35:46
  Or we working with other people that were like-minded, trying to
• 35:50
  help you get out of there? At that point, I was still just
• 35:58
  kind of doing my own thing. You know, I was trying to get
• 36:02
  adjusted to the environment. So I wasn't really, I wasn't
• 36:07
  really keen on meeting new people.
• 36:08
  Yeah. Just, you know, my street senses
• 36:11
  from Detroit, tell you, no, you're not, it's not good to be
• 36:16
  the friendliest person around, right, you don't, you don't want
• 36:18
  to open yourself up to become crater somebody else's nonsense
• 36:22
  or tactics. So, you know, I kind of I spent
• 36:24
  a lot of time by myself. Trying to figure things out, you
• 36:29
  know, not knowing what I didn't know, right?
• 36:32
  Not trusting the people around me for all the obvious reasons.
• 36:36
  So, I stayed to myself for majority of the time I was
• 36:40
  there. So when did because, how did you
• 36:45
  do your time in there? If you're doing it by yourself
• 36:48
  because everybody does their time differently, you know
• 36:50
  that's prison, you know, but I always say that there's a real
• 36:54
  big difference between how people do their time.
• 36:56
  There's People who are victimized and become a victim
• 37:00
  and they just kind of curl up in a corner and give up.
• 37:04
  And then there's a survivor's that you can almost see it like
• 37:06
  a divide in prison that these people are trying to get by.
• 37:10
  However, they're trying to get by however much time.
• 37:13
  They have, they're doing their time differently.
• 37:17
  Did you feel like that you were getting institutionalized in
• 37:21
  prison, or did you feel like can Nixon Probably neither.
• 37:29
  I tried my best to not succumb to the environment.
• 37:33
  I spent a lot of time really trying to educate myself and
• 37:37
  better understand the system and how I could fight for my
• 37:41
  freedom. Let's talk about that a little
• 37:43
  bit though. Can't how did you do that?
• 37:46
  Literally by stand as busy as I possibly could, I would bury
• 37:49
  myself and as much positivity as I could any programming that I
• 37:54
  could sign up for any classes that I could take any time that
• 37:58
  I could spend in the library. Any time I could spend reading
• 38:02
  and just kind of escaping mentally, escaping the
• 38:05
  environment around me, that's what I did.
• 38:09
  I try to, I try to subscribe to as many books.
• 38:12
  I mean not books newspapers magazines Anything that I can
• 38:17
  get my hands on that will help me mentally Escape.
• 38:20
  I tried to do. It's just and I know I'm sure
• 38:25
  you saw all the bad stuff. I mean you're you're in that
• 38:28
  you're in that bad prison, which murderers go to that.
• 38:35
  Had to be a lot. Absolutely, it takes a toll on a
• 38:41
  person. I was just having a
• 38:42
  conversation. Just recently with a therapist
• 38:45
  and, you know, prison is risen, right?
• 38:49
  It is violent. You know, you never know what?
• 38:53
  The next moment could bring, you never know what the next day
• 38:55
  could bring. You never know what the next
• 38:57
  shift could bring. You know, and it yeah, you're
• 39:01
  absolutely correct. You know, one minute everything
• 39:03
  be fine, the next minute, they could be a riot break out, you
• 39:06
  know, there's all sorts of there's all sorts of death
• 39:12
  associated with prison, you know, after seeing so much of
• 39:18
  it, I kind of became numb to it. Yeah, it's a part of Like
• 39:23
  there's no question about whether or not prison is
• 39:26
  violent. So by this on every level and
• 39:30
  it, you know, you in order to survive, you kind of learn to
• 39:34
  turn certain emotions off because you can't identify with
• 39:38
  certain thing. How did?
• 39:43
  Because I meant to ask you this, when this happened to you and
• 39:46
  you got sentence you went to prison.
• 39:48
  Your, your parents siblings with once you go in What is that like
• 39:54
  or are you getting visits? Are you are you staying
• 39:57
  connected to the outside world like what's, what's going on in
• 40:00
  that part of your world? Yeah, everybody.
• 40:04
  For the most part, my siblings were young when I went in my
• 40:09
  brother right up under me. I was 19.
• 40:11
  He was 18 and then I had some younger siblings that were 13
• 40:15
  when I went in. So they didn't quite fully
• 40:19
  understand what was happening. my mom and my stepdad, he
• 40:26
  Everybody stayed engaged, everybody stayed, you know part
• 40:29
  of the process, people process things differently, you know, so
• 40:33
  it wasn't it wasn't that anybody fell off, right?
• 40:38
  Some people needed a break that going into the system,
• 40:42
  especially, you know, I can only imagine the guilt that both my
• 40:46
  parents so feeling like they were helpless in this situation
• 40:50
  and again, we're not talking about.
• 40:51
  Yeah, exactly. We're not talking about
• 40:53
  something that is a light sentence, right?
• 40:55
  Not a six-month sentence. This is it.
• 40:57
  This is the rest of your life, right?
• 40:58
  And, you know, they were completely helpless.
• 41:01
  So, you know, for them. I think they took it really hard
• 41:05
  my family, though. They, they did really good.
• 41:08
  I continue, you know, I got business throughout the course
• 41:10
  of my incarceration, lots of family support friends that I
• 41:15
  grew up with there were, there were quite a few that stayed
• 41:18
  with me the entire time of my incarceration.
• 41:22
  So, my mind, Restoration, I would say wasn't as difficult as
• 41:29
  some of the other people around me but I did have a lot of
• 41:33
  support. Yeah, that's huge.
• 41:35
  It's a I mean, it's a Difference Maker because a lot of people
• 41:37
  don't and those guys are just walking alone doing their bit
• 41:41
  inside, they're on their own and not connected to the outside
• 41:44
  world at all. And I think that when that
• 41:48
  happens I think you fall deeper into that world because you
• 41:52
  Freedom become so far removed from anything that your
• 41:55
  Connecting to. So the Western Michigan
• 41:59
  University Cooley Law School Innocence Project gets on your
• 42:06
  case. How does that happen?
• 42:10
  It it happened by quite a few different ways.
• 42:19
  So there was a there was actually an article in 2018 that
• 42:23
  came out some journalism. Students from a deal Justice
• 42:25
  project got approval from the professor to do my case as a
• 42:31
  class project. Okay they did a very very
• 42:34
  thorough investigation. They came here I think the total
• 42:37
  data for six days, they talked to a laundry list of people
• 42:41
  associated with the case and throughout the course of their
• 42:45
  investigation. They came up with these
• 42:48
  documents that have been And with help from previous Council,
• 42:52
  they wrote the story about it. Their class project and not long
• 42:56
  after it was front page of the Detroit Free Press, which is the
• 43:00
  largest oldest newspaper in the state of Michigan.
• 43:03
  And once I made front page news, it got a lot of attention from
• 43:08
  from the Innocence Community shortly after that, I was
• 43:13
  already in Communications with Cooley Innocence Project, my
• 43:17
  lawyer, at that time. I'm so, will the lawyer assigned
• 43:21
  to my case at that time? Was a lady named Lori
• 43:23
  Montgomery. And she really, really believed
• 43:26
  in my case. She believed in my innocence and
• 43:30
  she bought for me really hard to be accepted.
• 43:34
  She eventually got the approval and that's how they ended up
• 43:39
  taking on my case. Wow, you know, that's what I
• 43:43
  mean, that's what it takes. So, I mean, you had a class and
• 43:46
  and it's Crazy that they were able to uncover that information
• 43:52
  enough that they could get it into the press and then you've
• 43:56
  then you then you find an advocate that pushes your case.
• 44:01
  How does the Wayne County conviction Integrity unit.
• 44:05
  Did they, how did they get into your world?
• 44:09
  Did they combine forces? Yes.
• 44:13
  So a part of a part of the agreement between Lori and I was
• 44:20
  that once she took all my case, they had a grant that was
• 44:25
  granted this to them by the federal government and the grand
• 44:29
  allowed four hundred some odd thousand dollars, right?
• 44:31
  Okay yeah. Yeah.
• 44:33
  The grant allowed them to work in tandem with the conviction
• 44:37
  Integrity unit for Wayne County which was first in the nation it
• 44:40
  had never been done before and it was Unheard of prior to them,
• 44:43
  being granted. The grant allowed them literally
• 44:46
  to communicate with each other, on cases that were from Lincoln
• 44:51
  County. So our agreement was that, I
• 44:54
  would be, the first case to be utilizing this grant.
• 44:59
  That's how they got involved. Lower is the the Innocence
• 45:03
  Project did their own. After the article came out, they
• 45:05
  did their own independent investigation to verify.
• 45:08
  What was, you know, in the article we also did some DNA
• 45:11
  testing On the remains of the molotov cocktail.
• 45:15
  The DNA came back inconclusive. So from there, you know, it was
• 45:21
  a matter of verifying the information that would have been
• 45:24
  written about in the newspaper articles.
• 45:26
  They independently verified it. Once they independently verified
• 45:29
  it, they went to the conviction Integrity unit has said, hey
• 45:32
  we've got this information. We know it's true, we verify
• 45:34
  where it came from. What do you think the conviction
• 45:39
  Integrity unit also did their own independent investigation?
• 45:42
  Ian. And they also verify the
• 45:44
  information to be true where it came from the origins.
• 45:47
  But you know who is responsible for it and not long after that I
• 45:51
  was released. Wow, what?
• 45:55
  Let's let's go back a little bit on that.
• 45:57
  Can't because I am wondering like all this is happening while
• 46:02
  you're in this Maximum Security Prison and now you've got this
• 46:06
  Advocate out there. Now you've got some innocent
• 46:08
  project, money the Integrity unit gets involved.
• 46:12
  Moved. Where's your head at with all
• 46:15
  that? Are you thinking?
• 46:16
  Oh my God. This is so great.
• 46:18
  I'm going to get out of here. Oh my God, I have such bad luck.
• 46:21
  This is not going to go anywhere.
• 46:24
  I think it was a little bit of Bolt, so prison kind of makes
• 46:27
  you skeptical about everything. So a part of me right around the
• 46:34
  time, that the journalism students decided to take on the
• 46:39
  case. I started to feel like the
• 46:42
  energy we're shifting because for so long prior to that.
• 46:46
  You know, I wasn't able to get anybody to listen to me.
• 46:48
  Well, let's just talk about that kiddo.
• 46:50
  I mean, it had been what 14 years.
• 46:52
  I mean, how long have I've been at over over a decade of prison,
• 47:02
  I had been in quite a long time. I want to say it was it was 12
• 47:06
  or 13 years. I have been at 128, you know,
• 47:08
  decided to take on the case. Yeah, so I got a lot of NOS.
• 47:12
  I got a lot of rejection leading up to that so you know the the
• 47:17
  natural response is, you know, hope.
• 47:21
  But at the same time, You're expecting something to not come
• 47:26
  out the way you want it. And that's kind of the mental
• 47:29
  space that I was there. But I think as they began to do
• 47:33
  their investigation and they kept me, informed of the things
• 47:36
  that they were finding it. Kind of shifted me a little bit.
• 47:40
  You know I felt the energy surrounding my innocent starting
• 47:43
  to change then the article comes out and then I start to get the
• 47:46
  entrance of Innocence projects and you know they're coming to
• 47:49
  the table with the conviction Integrity unit.
• 47:52
  So the energy star Have to change a lot.
• 47:54
  You know, it wasn't so - at that point, the everything
• 48:00
  surrounding the case seemed to be positive after positive.
• 48:03
  And, you know, I had a good team that was working with me.
• 48:07
  And, as you stated, I knew that throughout the course of my
• 48:12
  incarceration. I knew that I just needed one
• 48:14
  person. I just needed one person to
• 48:16
  believe in me. And, you know, I knew that that
• 48:19
  one person would be able to change the trajectory of the
• 48:22
  case. And you know, eventually that
• 48:24
  one person came about and it changed everything. so, This is
• 48:33
  going on in prison. You're an innocent man locked
• 48:37
  behind the walls. Are you talking about this with
• 48:41
  anybody in there? No, I didn't think so.
• 48:45
  No, use in prison is such a Negative place.
• 48:49
  It's not very. It's not a place to openly
• 48:53
  share, good news. All right, everybody's in such a
• 48:55
  down and found remove most of the time that, you know, you're
• 48:58
  a good news, created a situation that you weren't hoping for when
• 49:03
  you, when you decided to vent that.
• 49:05
  Well, I haven't felt like it was uncomfortable.
• 49:08
  I mean, you know, when I get close to getting out, I didn't
• 49:10
  talk about it because, you know, I know the guys had more time
• 49:13
  than I had and there's You know, there's nothing it's good for.
• 49:18
  I mean, it's good for me, but those guys are doing more time,
• 49:22
  you know. How does that make them feel
• 49:24
  every time? Somebody got released, I was
• 49:25
  like, I wish that was me so it's it is a weird environment.
• 49:29
  You might have one or two people, you can share things
• 49:31
  with but you certainly don't share it to very many people
• 49:34
  because It's a different world in there.
• 49:38
  Absolutely. So I think with each with each
• 49:41
  person that got out there for me, but naturally, a part of me
• 49:45
  felt envious. Yeah.
• 49:46
  But the other part of me was celebrating as well, because I
• 49:50
  knew that was one more person could get us.
• 49:52
  Right though. That's one more person out of my
• 49:55
  way right now. They yeah, a little more
• 49:57
  resources to focus on what's going on over here.
• 49:59
  All right, that guy's gone. So, start over here, next up in
• 50:02
  the night, and it looked at it like that. so, How does it
• 50:10
  happen? Like how do you like, what were
• 50:13
  the steps of you getting out? So everything starts rolling
• 50:16
  your way, the positive stuff happening.
• 50:19
  You've got the Innocence Project and the Integrity unit working
• 50:23
  together that I'm sure that this has to go before.
• 50:25
  Judge, you have a hearing I'm assuming that your, are you part
• 50:31
  of that hearing? Are you okay?
• 50:34
  So my so I came out during during covid so they were doing
• 50:38
  zumba. Here, when I came out.
• 50:41
  So, Once we got to the point where I knew what was about to
• 50:49
  happen, right? And it got really weird at that
• 50:52
  point because I was told that there was going to happen but I
• 50:58
  was also told not to tell my family yet either until you know
• 51:02
  we were for sure. We were certain that this was
• 51:05
  happening. So for probably two weeks you
• 51:08
  know I had to keep this to myself.
• 51:10
  Why not keep it away from everybody.
• 51:13
  On top of, you know, making sure that I didn't slip and say
• 51:16
  anything, you know, around me as well.
• 51:18
  Sure once we got the date, once we got the court date, scheduled
• 51:23
  it was. I knew it was going to be on
• 51:24
  some and, you know, I knew the time the date everything so that
• 51:31
  they actually the prison took me to literally like a storage
• 51:34
  closet, where they have this camera setup, I'll presume
• 51:38
  meetings and it's I'm not exaggerating.
• 51:40
  It's literally a storage closet with a convenient.
• 51:43
  It's on a car with a TV, Screw to the car, and they plug the
• 51:47
  TV, and they log you into the zoom corner.
• 51:50
  And I did, I said really hearing.
• 51:53
  And after I said that you're hearing, of course, naturally,
• 51:55
  I'm like, okay, so what happens next?
• 51:57
  What, what's going on now? And they eventually my lawyer
• 52:01
  stayed on after the court, hearing concluded, and they
• 52:04
  explained to me, that the judge had to email or fax the
• 52:07
  information over to the prison for my release.
• 52:10
  And you know, that's how the process.
• 52:12
  Wow. Can I cannot imagine any other
• 52:17
  thing I want to talk about a little bit is because you were
• 52:19
  you experience something that I don't know how bad it could be
• 52:27
  having covid restrictions in prison, but I'm assuming knowing
• 52:32
  prison that they took that on themselves to basically
• 52:36
  eliminate any type of things prisoners.
• 52:39
  Like just because it was covid protocol.
• 52:41
  What was it like Being in prison with covid.
• 52:47
  I think that was probably the scariest time of my
• 52:51
  incarceration. Kobe hit the prison system just
• 52:56
  as my positivity was starting. Yeah, I come about.
• 53:01
  Yeah. So, you know, I'm I'm and, and
• 53:05
  to be fair. The prison's didn't know how to
• 53:08
  handle covid. Yeah, nobody know.
• 53:10
  Exactly like that. Nobody did so.
• 53:13
  You know what I was thinking? It only made it only increased
• 53:17
  my fear of what was to come, because one minute everything
• 53:23
  can be fine. And then the next minute, you
• 53:24
  know, they've got an entire half of a building quarantine because
• 53:31
  somebody tested positive and, you know, we're seeing people
• 53:34
  being taken out but we're never seen them come back, right?
• 53:37
  And at some point, the Michigan Department of Corrections
• 53:40
  decided that they were going to have facility specifically for
• 53:43
  quarantining and then it was segregation are You specifically
• 53:46
  for quarantining. And once you clear quarantine,
• 53:49
  you know, they were ship you off to somewhere else where no one
• 53:52
  was positive. So, you know, it's the fear of
• 53:58
  One minute you and I could be sitting next to each other the
• 54:01
  very next minute I can see you being escorted out because you
• 54:03
  test positive and then I can never see, you never see again.
• 54:07
  I don't I don't know what happened to you.
• 54:09
  I don't know if you die, they transferred you nothing.
• 54:11
  So you know, that increases the fear of the unknown and I think
• 54:18
  the way that the system was handling, it only made things
• 54:21
  worse for us inside because it's already stressful, you know,
• 54:24
  being concerned about the violence and the officers.
• 54:27
  Yeah. All day long and even kind of
• 54:34
  imagined was we had scabies which I never really heard of it
• 54:37
  before, but the guy came in, and they shed a whole Wing down and
• 54:41
  kept those guys in there for, like, a week or two, and they
• 54:43
  couldn't even leave. I mean they were literally
• 54:45
  couldn't leave and and just shut the and the fear for us was as
• 54:51
  if it was going to come out, whatever scabies was is going to
• 54:54
  come out and they're just going to shut the whole place down but
• 54:56
  I can't imagine. Covid because covid like you
• 54:59
  said, they just take somebody away, you don't see him again.
• 55:01
  You don't know if they're alive dead, whatever.
• 55:02
  And there was a lot of us really sick.
• 55:05
  What's really something Ken is that you're right?
• 55:07
  That was exactly when all the good stuff was happening for
• 55:10
  you. Yeah wow I mean to make matters
• 55:13
  worse there's a lot of a lot of frustration amongst them a
• 55:17
  population because we were being forced to be tested every week,
• 55:21
  but the staff wasn't the force to be tested every week which
• 55:25
  was confusing to us. Because they're the ones going
• 55:29
  on warranty. Exactly.
• 55:30
  They're the ones going out and coming in where quarantine from
• 55:32
  the world. The only way that we can get it
• 55:34
  is if they brought somebody coming in right.
• 55:36
  Exactly. So you have us testing as if
• 55:40
  we're the problem. Yes.
• 55:41
  What you're not making the actual problem.
• 55:43
  Do any testing whatsoever and you know it just it increased
• 55:47
  the period increased, the hostility I don't know if you
• 55:50
  know this but literally a month before I was released.
• 55:54
  I tested positive, I did not know that.
• 55:57
  January 2021, I tested positive. I was released February of 1941.
• 56:03
  They take you away in solitary or what do they do with you?
• 56:08
  Yeah, they quarantined the entire unit, they put us in
• 56:12
  solitary, which was crazy as well.
• 56:15
  Because we literally had monkeys where there was two of us in the
• 56:19
  cell that while we both had we both tested positive for covid.
• 56:23
  So you know I got to see the effects of covid up close.
• 56:27
  Because mine was mild and I was fine.
• 56:29
  I was functional slight cough, no issue.
• 56:32
  While other hand was, was dealing with the way worse case
• 56:36
  of its body aches. Cold sweats, you know, just not
• 56:39
  being able to handle it. So, you know, it was, it was
• 56:42
  hard to watch him suffering. When I could do nothing, the
• 56:45
  staff aren't doing anything and it was just hard and I'm praying
• 56:49
  that, you know, I survived it because I know what's going on.
• 56:53
  I can feel what's coming and I can feel what's coming like?
• 56:56
  No, no. This close?
• 56:58
  No, they hadn't survived all this time.
• 57:00
  All these are covid to take me out.
• 57:02
  It was it was poor from. It was stressful.
• 57:04
  Oh man, can't I can't imagine the stress of that.
• 57:07
  Let's talk. Let's talk about you getting
• 57:09
  out. Let's say mean, so you get
• 57:13
  released. I think I've seen the pictures
• 57:15
  of you. You get your mask on and pull it
• 57:17
  down. You get tell me about it.
• 57:20
  I just can't imagine. Really it was it was super
• 57:25
  ecstatic moment. Was it that line?
• 57:29
  I believe it. No, no, I was just just over two
• 57:32
  years ago. Yeah, Feb 18 21.
• 57:36
  Like I said, I we go through the hearing.
• 57:38
  And by this time, what I didn't know was that I had already made
• 57:43
  the news. It had already been announced
• 57:45
  that I was going to be released. So the officers come in the day
• 57:51
  that I'm supposed to be released.
• 57:54
  And ironically, my court hearing was at 1:00 shift changes at
• 57:57
  2:00. So this little closet that I'm
• 57:59
  in doing the hearing, it took it led up to shift change so as the
• 58:05
  officers are coming in, everybody's talking about the
• 58:08
  guy that supposed to be released from prison today and most of
• 58:12
  them, you know, had known me from being there.
• 58:14
  So, you know, they're they're looking around and you to the
• 58:19
  facilities credit. They made sure that I had all of
• 58:23
  my stuff as quickly as possible. They made sure that I was
• 58:27
  prepared to leave and one of the things that that happened for
• 58:31
  me, I don't know that it's happened for anybody else, the
• 58:34
  deputy Ward? Literally the third in command,
• 58:37
  at the facility that I was at, walked me out to the car.
• 58:41
  He helped process me out. He helped process me out and he
• 58:46
  openly asked, could he help you know, carry my belongings to the
• 58:49
  car and he did? He did, he walk me out to the
• 58:54
  car walking out to my innocence lawyers.
• 58:56
  And, you know, it was, it was a moment as I walk out, they
• 59:02
  actually have my family moved to a different location because I
• 59:06
  didn't want a lot of commotion on their other prison grounds.
• 59:08
  So, I went to a car where my lawyers were waiting and he
• 59:12
  drove around a corner to where my family was, and as we pulled
• 59:15
  up in a park, like there's this big crowd, it's a snowstorm,
• 59:18
  there's media out here and You know, it was just it was a an
• 59:23
  amazing feeling to step out of that car.
• 59:26
  And to see, you know, I walked into a Sea of Love, literally
• 59:30
  just people standing there waiting for it, waiting for me
• 59:34
  and you know, my sons were there.
• 59:37
  Other exonerees where they're guys that I had never met
• 59:39
  before. We're sitting in a parking lot
• 59:41
  to welcome you home and, you know, lawyers Lori, Montgomery.
• 59:46
  She was, she was there. She had moved on to a different
• 59:49
  job at that point, but she was there.
• 59:51
  She Your business to be there. That's, and that meant the
• 59:53
  world, you know? And, you know, it was just, it's
• 59:57
  such a humbling feeling to know and that your innocence had
• 1:00:01
  finally been proven after all this time, I call this fight,
• 1:00:05
  you know, someone finally took the time to listen to you can
• 1:00:08
  imagine, I mean, the feeling of that being wrongly accused of
• 1:00:12
  such a horrible crime and just not giving up on yourself and
• 1:00:18
  and keeping with it and then finding an Ticket and then, you
• 1:00:22
  know the school. I mean, that the school that did
• 1:00:25
  that and got it published and then all of a sudden you're off
• 1:00:28
  and running. It's just a, it's just a really
• 1:00:30
  cool story can and what I really like, and I want to kind of talk
• 1:00:35
  about what what you're doing now, because it had to be a real
• 1:00:40
  adjustment to get out. I mean, you know, three years,
• 1:00:43
  five years, 14 years, 16 years, how was it for you getting out?
• 1:00:49
  You know, the Ation obviously is fantastic in your you're an
• 1:00:54
  innocent man that were only accused and everybody knows it.
• 1:00:56
  Now what about reentry? It was definitely different.
• 1:01:03
  The world was different. It was, it was a huge transition
• 1:01:06
  for me. Technology has advanced so much
• 1:01:08
  that I wasn't prepared for what I was walking into.
• 1:01:12
  Re-entry was probably one of the most difficult part of the
• 1:01:17
  transition. Again, I came home in the middle
• 1:01:20
  of covid. So you know, there were there
• 1:01:22
  was no such thing as being able to just go and they don't ask
• 1:01:26
  for the yeah, I didn't know that.
• 1:01:29
  That the world has had transformed into this, as at
• 1:01:33
  that point. You know, I thought things were
• 1:01:34
  still normal. People just go to the Secretary
• 1:01:37
  of State and, you know, you just go and ask for your vital
• 1:01:40
  documents. That's what I thought.
• 1:01:42
  I had no idea that the process will be so difficult.
• 1:01:47
  Just, you know, a few examples when I came home because I was
• 1:01:51
  in this project client, they the Innocence Network as a whole,
• 1:01:55
  from all over the world, they send you.
• 1:01:58
  There's these funds set up where they send you.
• 1:02:00
  Money to help you get back on your feet.
• 1:02:02
  The problem was that the problem was, I couldn't cash the checks
• 1:02:06
  because I didn't have a bank account, I couldn't get a bank
• 1:02:09
  account without an ID. I couldn't get an ID without a
• 1:02:12
  birth certificate. I couldn't get a birth
• 1:02:14
  certificate without a social security card.
• 1:02:16
  You can't get an ID without having to of the other and it
• 1:02:20
  was just like so confusing and you know it we're just.
• 1:02:24
  Why are you such a great voice for what you're doing?
• 1:02:27
  By the way? Yeah, I mean, I'm trying.
• 1:02:29
  Sighing, I'm trying that, you know, you have to make these
• 1:02:32
  things relatable for people to understand that.
• 1:02:34
  You know I try to make it as simple as possible when I'm
• 1:02:38
  telling the story because this stuff is real, right?
• 1:02:42
  And again, I had a lot of help. I had tons of people in my
• 1:02:46
  corner and none of us could figure out how to navigate even
• 1:02:49
  the most basic of government Necessities.
• 1:02:52
  Yeah, you know, one of the one of the stories that I tell about
• 1:02:56
  my social security card as I mean, everybody knows, Federal
• 1:03:00
  government has its own issues. But I still to this day can't
• 1:03:03
  understand how I ordered a watch from overseas and that watch was
• 1:03:09
  delivered to me, within three days.
• 1:03:11
  The Social Security office was literally two blocks from the
• 1:03:14
  house that I was living and it took six weeks for me to get it.
• 1:03:17
  How is a piece of paper that is walking distance from my home.
• 1:03:21
  How does that take longer than it does to order something from
• 1:03:23
  another country? And have it delivered to your
• 1:03:25
  doorstep? It's just, it doesn't make any
• 1:03:29
  sense whatsoever. And it's like, I don't get it,
• 1:03:33
  you know, and then there were so many difficulties State IDs, you
• 1:03:38
  know the can't do anything without identification.
• 1:03:41
  Literally I was an unknown citizen in this country.
• 1:03:44
  The moment I walked out of prison I was a baby bird.
• 1:03:46
  Is that? Yeah.
• 1:03:49
  And you know prison gives you an idea but nobody respects that I
• 1:03:53
  know literally nobody scares people.
• 1:03:57
  Yes, they kicked me out of a bank but that ID literally
• 1:04:01
  security told me to leave because it was an invalid
• 1:04:03
  identification. I tried to go to another state
• 1:04:06
  agency. I tried to go to the Secretary
• 1:04:08
  of State. They told me that ID would work
• 1:04:10
  for them. They you they literally use my
• 1:04:13
  high school ID as opposed to my and it's the state issued.
• 1:04:18
  For instance, state-issued ID card.
• 1:04:21
  This comes from the prison. I was there when they printed my
• 1:04:25
  high school ID like it. Printed in the closet of room at
• 1:04:30
  my high school and they took that before they took something
• 1:04:32
  that was issued to me by a prisoner state agency.
• 1:04:35
  That's can, it's the process is just way too difficult and
• 1:04:39
  burdensome, let's talk about what you're doing now because I
• 1:04:43
  mean, you're doing good stuff and can you kind of let
• 1:04:46
  everybody know what you're doing.
• 1:04:47
  Criminal Justice Reform is something that's personal to be
• 1:04:52
  for all the obvious reasons. I am the President and chairman
• 1:04:57
  The organizations that are he's, there's an organization that I
• 1:05:00
  co-founded along with a group of other, exoneree prior to my
• 1:05:05
  release from prison, this organization didn't exist.
• 1:05:08
  We didn't, we didn't start this organization with reform in
• 1:05:13
  mind. We started it as a Brotherhood
• 1:05:16
  as a way to bond, you know, and keep each other Focus, help each
• 1:05:20
  other through difficulties. But we quickly realized that I
• 1:05:24
  wasn't the only person suffering from a Documents issue for a
• 1:05:28
  bank account issue or a healthcare issue.
• 1:05:31
  We were all having the same problems and that's where we
• 1:05:35
  sort of bonded and that injury and learning to navigate those
• 1:05:40
  processes. You know, we kind of came to the
• 1:05:42
  decision that we need to fix this stuff so that the people
• 1:05:45
  that come after us, don't have to go through the things that we
• 1:05:48
  had to go through. So, you know, we set out on a
• 1:05:52
  mission to really restructure the way reform looks for
• 1:05:55
  exonerees. And And, you know, now, just
• 1:05:58
  less than two years later, we filled in all sorts of programs
• 1:06:01
  or vital documents bank accounts financial advisors
• 1:06:05
  Transportation Healthcare housing.
• 1:06:10
  You know, all the things that didn't exist, two years ago are
• 1:06:13
  now readily accessible for guys as they walk out of prison, you
• 1:06:18
  know, beyond that. We also travel the country
• 1:06:20
  advocating for other innocent people, which is how you and I
• 1:06:24
  met, that's how we we've traveled.
• 1:06:27
  We travel to multiple different states advocating for other in
• 1:06:30
  steeple that are still fighting for their freedom.
• 1:06:32
  And in those cases, we work to bring as much awareness as
• 1:06:36
  possible to the person that suffer.
• 1:06:40
  We try to remind people that there's multiple victims when it
• 1:06:42
  comes to a wrongful incarceration.
• 1:06:45
  Can I think it's I think it's a really big deal.
• 1:06:48
  What you guys do on that traveling group that because
• 1:06:53
  talking about an exoneree is Is one thing, but seeing your face,
• 1:06:58
  hearing your voice and knowing that you really exist and going
• 1:07:04
  to these other places and showing people that, yes, it
• 1:07:07
  really happens, you really can get put in prison and be wrongly
• 1:07:13
  accused such a big deal. What you guys do and show up at
• 1:07:17
  these different places because it really does give a voice and
• 1:07:20
  a face to this unbelievable situation.
• 1:07:24
  But I think that if you Weren't doing that.
• 1:07:28
  There's less of an impact by you guys being there.
• 1:07:30
  I think it creates such more of a big impact of people
• 1:07:34
  understanding that this is real. This is this guy that's sitting
• 1:07:37
  in that courtroom. It really could have happened
• 1:07:40
  because I'm one of them. Yeah, I think that was we kind
• 1:07:44
  of came to that conclusion. The importance of it was not
• 1:07:47
  befallen on us you know being physically present because each
• 1:07:51
  and every one of us understood how it felt to be in the
• 1:07:54
  courtroom with no support. Yeah.
• 1:07:55
  How it felt to be trying to navigate a process that with
• 1:07:59
  limited understanding of what was happening to you.
• 1:08:02
  Or you around you about. You write all of these decisions
• 1:08:05
  are being made and the only person that can't speak and
• 1:08:09
  doesn't have a voice in that situation is the person going.
• 1:08:12
  I'm through it. And, you know, it people people
• 1:08:15
  have a tendency to look past that fact, when you're arrested
• 1:08:20
  from the moment you're arrested, you never get an opportunity to
• 1:08:23
  speak for yourself ever, ever right there cops speaker for
• 1:08:27
  you. Your there's prosecutor speaking
• 1:08:28
  for you. There's attorney speaking for
• 1:08:30
  you, the judges speaking for you, the jury is speaking for
• 1:08:32
  you at no point. Does anybody asked the actual
• 1:08:36
  wrongfully convicted person? How they feel what they're
• 1:08:40
  thinking, what's going through your mind at no point?
• 1:08:42
  You have a voice when your life is on the line, us understanding
• 1:08:46
  that because we've been through, it felt like it was important
• 1:08:50
  extremely important. That we be that person's voice,
• 1:08:54
  right? We give a face to what some
• 1:08:57
  people don't think this or think happens.
• 1:08:59
  I have a hard time we wanted. Yeah, we wanted to make sure
• 1:09:02
  that our presence was impactful in a way that it makes people
• 1:09:08
  understand. This is not just for TV.
• 1:09:10
  We are real people in this half. Happens every single day.
• 1:09:14
  So, you know, our group it was it's sort of a no-brainer.
• 1:09:18
  When you know, I make that call and say go, we got a court here
• 1:09:21
  that we need to attend. It's, we have to figure out how
• 1:09:24
  to transport that many people that are volunteering, that more
• 1:09:28
  than anything, you know, something especially when we
• 1:09:30
  have time to plant. We know in advance is happening.
• 1:09:33
  That's a totally different situation where, you know, I
• 1:09:35
  might find out today that we've got a hearing on Monday, you
• 1:09:38
  know, some people may not be able to juggle their schedules
• 1:09:40
  as much but The impact of being present.
• 1:09:46
  I think it goes past what most people understand, without a
• 1:09:51
  doubt without a doubt. And you know, you lending your
• 1:09:55
  voice to so many of these different things for previously
• 1:09:58
  incarcerated people. It's such a big deal because,
• 1:10:01
  you know, some people don't have a strong voice, but, you know,
• 1:10:06
  one of the things, you know, that's if you read and go and
• 1:10:09
  read about Ken, he's, there's a lot to read about him, but he's
• 1:10:12
  got a great voice, he's a smart guy.
• 1:10:16
  I think you're going political science and going into into law,
• 1:10:19
  which I'd love to have you on the defense side of the table,
• 1:10:23
  knowing what, you know, living what you've lived, you know,
• 1:10:26
  what a great profession for you to have, you know, to use that
• 1:10:30
  experience of yours to help others.
• 1:10:34
  If going out to the listeners out there can, it's so
• 1:10:39
  incredible what you've lived through.
• 1:10:42
  What do you thinks the biggest takeaway through all of your
• 1:10:45
  journey? The system is hugely flawed and
• 1:10:51
  the lack of accountability is just astounding to me, you know,
• 1:10:57
  I am, I am, I'm not one of those people that believe, like, be
• 1:11:02
  fundable lease or abolished, you know, the system.
• 1:11:05
  I'm not one of those. I'm not foolish enough to say
• 1:11:07
  that. I definitely believe we need
• 1:11:09
  police. I also believe need
• 1:11:11
  accountability. I think there's a huge
• 1:11:13
  difference between making a mistake and doing something
• 1:11:15
  deliberately And we know for a fact, Google fact that there are
• 1:11:20
  instances of wrongful convictions where the police and
• 1:11:24
  or the prosecution involved and that wrongful conviction did
• 1:11:28
  something knowingly. They intentionally, did
• 1:11:31
  something to send an innocent person in prison and there's no
• 1:11:33
  accountability, right? There's no accountability.
• 1:11:36
  Yeah. Lawsuits, you know, people when
• 1:11:38
  lawsuits all day every day but lawsuits do nothing to change
• 1:11:42
  the systems, right? They, they just had the pockets,
• 1:11:45
  most people don't understand that.
• 1:11:46
  Even when you do win a lawsuit, it's an insurance claim, right?
• 1:11:50
  The city, the insurance company. Pays it off.
• 1:11:53
  It's not like that officers affected in any kind of way.
• 1:11:56
  The reality is what happens is that officer and or their
• 1:11:58
  prosecutor retires with a full pension and packed.
• 1:12:01
  Nothing ever happens to that person.
• 1:12:03
  No matter how many lives they record.
• 1:12:05
  We want in the process. They still go on with their
• 1:12:08
  lives as if nothing ever happened.
• 1:12:10
  That's the biggest takeaway for me that.
• 1:12:13
  There's no accountability for some of the best actors within
• 1:12:16
  the system. Mm, which you know, I think
• 1:12:19
  creates the passion that you have to help change it and fix
• 1:12:24
  it. And you know, one of the things
• 1:12:26
  that you, you know about Ken Nixon is he's a fixer and he's
• 1:12:29
  a, he's a problem solver and thank God.
• 1:12:32
  You're out to be able to do that because we need people like you
• 1:12:36
  on the outside fixing and finding Solutions because it's a
• 1:12:40
  big problem and, you know, I think maybe there's a little bit
• 1:12:44
  more focus on. Then there has been maybe 20, 30
• 1:12:49
  years ago, but there's so much that needs to be done, but your
• 1:12:55
  voice out there can is fantastic.
• 1:12:57
  And thanks so much for making the time today.
• 1:13:00
  I want to tell everybody if you want to go.
• 1:13:05
  I've I know I say this all the time but on Apple, if you leave
• 1:13:09
  a review, it really helps to show it like it.
• 1:13:11
  Like pumps up the volume of how they promote the show.
• 1:13:14
  So if you want to do that, if you're on your phone.
• 1:13:16
  Phone. There's three little lines up at
• 1:13:18
  the top. You just drop that down actually
• 1:13:21
  that's the follow the show to leave a review to scroll down
• 1:13:25
  and find the reviews and hit click a review, go to brick, a
• 1:13:28
  c.com leave me a message, I love to go back and forth with
• 1:13:31
  everybody. And if you're needing a book out
• 1:13:34
  there, I wrote One, dimer success can be found on Amazon
• 1:13:37
  Barnes and over Walmart, and, and this guy here needs to write
• 1:13:42
  a book can next in needs to write a book.
• 1:13:44
  I'll be looking for his book. As I used to say to everybody,
• 1:13:49
  when I was typing my e-mails back and forth in prison, stay
• 1:13:53
  strong and I'll do the same. Ken Nixon thank you so much for
• 1:13:56
  being here today. I appreciate it.
• 1:13:58
  Thank you for having me. All right, dude.
• 1:14:00
  All right, folks. Nightmare success in and out,
• 1:14:02
  Ken Dixon.