Latest / Becker’s Healthcare Podcast / Dr. Sachin Jain, President and CEO of SCAN Group

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Dr. Sachin Jain, President and CEO of SCAN Group · Becker’s Healthcare Podcast

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here in Chicago.
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Hello, everyone. This is Jacob Emerson with the
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Becker's Pay Your Issues podcast. Thrilled today to
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be joined by SCAN Group president and CEO,
0:41
doctor Sachin Jain. Doctor Jain, thanks so much
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for taking the time to chat with me
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on the podcast once again. Thanks so much
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for having me, Jacob. It's always an honor
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and a pleasure. Absolutely. Likewise. And, we've got
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a lot we wanna, talk with you about
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today, Sachin,
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about a piece you wrote for Forbes.
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But, obviously, as you know, there there's been
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a lot happening
1:01
across the health care industry this year already
1:03
in the first few weeks of the year.
1:05
A lot of federal policy debate and proposals,
1:08
in Washington.
1:09
Got the CEOs of the largest insurers testifying
1:11
before Congress last week over rising premiums.
1:14
And then you wrote in your piece that,
1:16
of course, that all of this is happening
1:17
as trust in the industry overall remains fragile,
1:20
given the events of the last couple of
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years. So
1:24
against that backdrop,
1:25
you published an op ed in Forbes this
1:27
month outlining 10 health care leadership resolutions for
1:30
the year ahead.
1:32
You you noted it's it's not a trend
1:33
forecast. It's not a strategy framework. It's a
1:36
candid call for
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accountability.
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And you're arguing that health care's core challenge
1:40
is not innovation fatigue or talent talent shortages,
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but a growing deficit of leadership resolve.
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So so, correct me if I if I
1:48
frame that incorrectly at all, Sachin. But but
1:51
how I wanna discuss I think you framed
1:52
it I think you framed it better than,
1:54
I framed it, Jacob. So thank you. Yeah.
1:55
I appreciate it. Hear that. I mean, tell
1:57
us, why'd you wanna write this piece? Why'd
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you wanna start up this year writing this
2:01
in in such a public manner? Well, on
2:03
a on a personal note, I'm a big
2:05
New Year's resolutions guy, so I like to
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spend the last couple of weeks of the
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year thinking about the next year. And
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as I was doing that for myself on
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a personal level, I started to think about
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my resolutions from a professional perspective.
2:21
And
2:22
I started to think about the behaviors that
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I wanted to see more in myself and
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then also behaviors
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that I think we need to see, you
2:29
know, more broadly. And,
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you know, number one is something I believe
2:34
in, you know, to my core, which is
2:36
that we all need to say the hard
2:38
things and do the hard things more.
2:40
I think health care is an industry that
2:42
is just bereft with happy talk,
2:45
and we need to kinda move beyond the
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happy talk in part because
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I think the happy talk actually gets in
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the way
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of actually addressing
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the real problems, the real elephants in the
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room. If we're constantly kinda talking about what's
2:59
working,
3:00
we're not talking about what's not working.
3:02
And, you know, to connect it back to
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the trust point that you made earlier,
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we may not be talking about it as
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health care leaders,
3:09
but all of our patients
3:11
and health care workers are all talking about
3:13
it everywhere.
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And so the trust gap builds when there's
3:18
one talk track that's happening at a leadership
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level, and then there's another talk track that's
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happening at the patient
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and clinician level.
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And when those two things are, you know,
3:29
increasingly misaligned,
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it actually
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widens the trust gap because it's it gives
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people the feeling
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that, you know, some people are living on
3:39
Mars while other people are living on Venus.
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And
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we all need to be on planet Earth.
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And I think part of that begins with
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actually
3:47
just naming the problem so that we can
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actually start to fix the problem.
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Sure. And I and I hear you loud
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and clear. I would, share
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in being,
3:57
and getting sick of of the happy talk
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from leaders within the industry. I certainly hear
4:02
hear it,
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daily. Nick, if you're only now getting sick
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of it, I mean, you just you listen
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to it all the time. So I'm just,
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you know, you listen to it more than
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I do. But let me ask you because
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I think where this is coming from is
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it's, from, you know, you wrote this isn't
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coming from lack of intelligence. It's it's not
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coming from people who don't know what they're
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doing. But at least from, you know, when
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I'm having interviews with very senior executives in
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this industry,
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they are scared to say what they really
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feel either because, you know, they they have
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their PR department that has written them very
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strict things to communicate.
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They don't wanna get into legal trouble. They
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don't wanna, you know, get into trouble with
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their board. Whatever it is, executives are often
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very afraid to step in it, and they
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don't wanna go in in the way that,
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you know, is, I think, framed as the
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correct way of communicating
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whatever we're talking about in the given moment.
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So
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how do you how do you counter something
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like that? Something that, I think innately is
4:55
a fear, from a lot of leadership in
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the industry. Well, I'm glad you mentioned the
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PR people because I think we have a
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broken PR playbook for health care.
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And I liken it a lot to the
5:06
Ivy League presidents that were
5:08
in congress
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testifying
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and not answering questions that were asked very
5:13
directly directly.
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And you see that that playbook
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of obfuscation,
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of
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being excessively careful in the face of hard
5:23
questions,
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plays exactly the way that it played, you
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know, when the those Ivy League presidents were
5:29
actually testifying
5:30
before congress, which is actually plays very badly.
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If you're asked direct questions and you don't
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answer them directly, and if you're not speaking
5:37
truth
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in situations where you're
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asked to speak truth,
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it leaves a certain taste in your mouth.
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And I think that,
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you know, the instructions that we're getting from
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PR people
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are outdated. Now we have a great PR
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department, small and mighty at SCAN.
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But, you know, the truth is is that
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we are,
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you know, getting out of the world of
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talking points and getting into the world of
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just speaking the truth plainly and simply and
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honestly.
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I think, you know, you know, we had
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this big national campaign last year with which
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was health insurance is broken,
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was our our tagline.
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You know, SCAN sees it and, is doing
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something to fix it.
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That's a very different message than you hear
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from almost all of our competitors,
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both on the payer side and the provider
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side, where most folks are touting their US
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News and World Report rankings.
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They're touting their,
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you know, VISIANT ratings. Whatever it is, the
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truth is is that
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if you actually
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look at what's really happening to patients and
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clinicians, health care is getting worse and not
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better.
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And if you actually say that out loud,
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it gives you the best chance possible to
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actually fix it.
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But I think we're robbing ourselves of that
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when we hide behind
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the p the simple PR talk. And, again,
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I'll just say that old playbooks are really,
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really outdated. Saying nothing is not a strategy.
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And so I would I think that one
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of the biggest opportunities we have as an
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industry to move forward the quality of leadership
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and the impact of leadership
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is to actually
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commit to speaking more plainly and more truthfully
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and more honestly
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about what's really going on.
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Absolutely. And I and I definitely would give
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kudos to SCAN for a very unique Medicare
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Advantage campaign last year, such and definitely one
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of the more candid moments we've seen in
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the industry over the last few years in
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terms of just openly talking about the frustrations
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that members all across the country, not not
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SCAN,
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have with their health plans.
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But I also wonder, you know, there's a
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lot of leaders that don't necessarily see themselves
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as wanting to be or needing to be
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mouthpieces
7:44
for,
7:45
industry wide change. They just wanna focus on,
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quiet
7:49
operational discipline within their their specific organizations.
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Do you think that there's a risk here
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of them getting drowned out by people who
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are louder,
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even if those people are less,
8:02
substantive in what they're saying? Yeah. Again, I'm
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gonna sound like a broken record, but I
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think it's an outdated playbook.
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I think, you know, one of the reasons
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we haven't had more policy change is that
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we are quietly going about our business, not
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really asking the hard questions and saying the
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hard things and and leading the kind of
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policy advocacy that we need. And what I'll
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say is if you're not part of driving
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change, change will happen to you.
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That happens over and over again. History proves
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that, you know, change will happen to those
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who don't actually
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participate in creating it themselves.
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And so I think we, as leaders, have
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an opportunity and almost an obligation
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to take our knowledge of what's not working
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and actually work proactively
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to address it,
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whether it's through operations, but also through advocacy,
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through policy, through public proclamations. I I think
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when you don't speak in 2026,
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you're seen as, frankly, complicit in the status
8:57
quo. And I don't think that that's unfair.
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I think if you are not part of
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the voices
9:04
advocating for change, you are indeed part of
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the broken status quo. And that is not
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a position that I think history will look
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favorably upon,
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in the in the future. So I think
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we all have to,
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you know, really think hard about how we
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show up and what we really stand for
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and move beyond the platitudes. And one of
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the my least favorite industry platitudes is the
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no margin, no mission platitude because it avoids
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the kind of reflection that's actually
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necessary about what the actual mission is. And
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I don't think the mission is to just
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keep your organization alive no matter what. I
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think the mission is to heal people, to
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serve the community, to improve population health. That's
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the work that we really need to do.
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Yeah. No. It's a it's a good call
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out. I I like that you're calling out
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your least favorite platitude such, and I I
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think maybe mine I would add is, meeting
9:56
the member where they are. I hear that
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consistently,
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probably on a weekly basis. And at least
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from my perspective, that seems like something that
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should have been What about what about right?
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Right care, right time, right place. That's another
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one I'm sure you hear a lot on
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this, podcast, Jacob. Yeah. Definitely. And, hey, it's
10:11
it's it's also something I wanted to ask
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about in in terms of just what we
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hear so much of right now, but it's
10:17
it's almost saying everything and yet nothing, and
10:19
it's it's the AI conversation
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section. And I and I say that because
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it's almost like every press release,
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every product raw, every initiative, every project has
10:28
to have some kind of AI powered, AI
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driven
10:31
explainer on on attached to the front of
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it. And, you know, I know this technology
10:35
is is has been transformative for the industry
10:38
right now, but I wanted to connect it
10:40
back to what something you said in your
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piece. Well, actually actually, Jacob, I've pushed. I
10:43
don't think it has been transformative. Right? That's
10:45
the point is that, you know, you know,
10:47
are you or I getting in to see
10:49
our primary care doctors any sooner? Yeah. Are
10:52
you or I, you know, actually
10:54
getting the kind of care that we need
10:56
when we need it because of it, you
10:57
know, something that some health system is enabled
10:59
by AI? I don't think so. Sure. And
11:02
so until the benefit really accrues to the
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end customer,
11:06
I you know, which is the patient,
11:08
I don't think we can actually say that
11:09
AI has led to any real change. And
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I think a lot of what's happening right
11:12
now is we're we're getting a lot of,
11:14
quote, unquote, back office innovation, which is really
11:16
about revenue cycle management and coding,
11:19
and we're not necessarily getting patient facing innovation.
11:22
I I had this, you know, my my
11:25
team a couple weeks ago was presenting to
11:27
us the chatbot
11:28
that feed a chatbot feature, which is, you
11:30
know, kind of table stakes that, you know,
11:32
every company has. And I just kept thinking
11:34
to myself, has anyone ever met a chatbot
11:36
that they actually like?
11:38
And I couldn't couldn't think of anyone who's
11:40
there like, oh, man. I use the United
11:42
Airlines chatbot, and it was really awesome.
11:45
I really prefer that to actually interacting with
11:47
a person. Now certainly, like, if I had
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a simple request, like, you know, you know,
11:51
send me my membership card or something like
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that,
11:54
Those those types of, you know, features are
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are helpful and reduce friction.
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But what most people's health care problems aren't
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as simple as needing a membership card or
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needing a, you know, a a a, you
12:06
know, a referral to a specialist. I think
12:07
it gets much more complicated than that.
12:10
It you know? And and that's the work,
12:12
you know, that we need to do is
12:13
make those complicated things better and simpler.
12:16
So until AI is actually influencing
12:20
the the complicated things and truly making the
12:23
system work better,
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You know, I think we're we haven't the
12:25
game hasn't even started yet.
12:27
No. And I I appreciate the pushback. I
12:29
certainly am guilty of falling for the rhetoric,
12:32
I think, just as much as anybody. And
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I I I think the question there, Sachin,
12:36
is how should the leaders listening in, who
12:38
can also be just as guilty of this,
12:39
how can they distinguish themselves between genuine transformation,
12:43
whether that be at the company or industry
12:45
wide, and some of the organizational
12:47
noise that you described in your piece? I
12:50
would say skepticism is in and toxic positivity
12:52
is out.
12:54
And I think, you you know, the way
12:55
we can actually you you know, another another
12:58
truism that my friend, Aman Bandari,
13:01
who is,
13:02
you know,
13:03
the head of AI and and data science
13:05
at Vertex Pharmaceuticals
13:07
is, you know, show me a startup that's
13:08
actually moved the needle on care delivery.
13:11
And it you know, the truth is there's
13:12
a few. But for the most part,
13:15
most of what, you know, the startup ecosystem,
13:18
the venture ecosystem is doing is adding a
13:20
lot of noise. Now they're getting a lot
13:21
of attention right now.
13:23
But the truth is is that, you know,
13:25
there's a lot of noise,
13:26
and the noise
13:27
the noise to actual impact ratio is off
13:30
the charts right now. And I'd like to
13:33
see us really push the impact
13:35
numbers up and reduce the noise. And, you
13:38
know, maybe part of part of, you know,
13:41
what a Beckers can do is is start
13:43
to be a more skeptical voice. And I
13:44
think health care journalism could play an important
13:47
role in this too.
13:49
It's yeah. It's I really appreciate that call
13:51
out as well. I would agree.
13:53
We definitely have a responsibility to be more
13:56
skeptical in all of the communications that are
13:58
coming our way and what the authorities on
14:01
these topics are telling us. So, yeah, I
14:03
would agree with you. A simple a simple
14:04
fix here. I mean, again, I don't think
14:06
Becker's does this that much, but I think
14:07
a lot
14:08
of venues just get really focused on the
14:10
fundraising.
14:11
Mhmm. Right? It's like, oh, Joe's startup has,
14:14
you know, raised a series b that has
14:17
x, y, and z investors, and it's, you
14:18
know, $30,000,000 round.
14:20
And, you know, we're not actually talking about,
14:24
hey. Joe startup,
14:26
move the needle
14:27
on the care of diabetics in x health
14:30
system. Right? That's the kind of conversation that
14:32
we need to be having more of, and
14:34
that's the kind of stuff that we should
14:36
be elevating more, not, you know, whether someone
14:38
was clever enough to, you know, raise money
14:41
from a syndicate of investors. Yeah. Absolutely. And
14:44
I think, unfortunately, that's also a symptom of
14:46
our media
14:47
media ecosystem,
14:49
going towards what are the audiences clicking on.
14:52
And I know that's an entire other conversation,
14:54
so I won't, you know, go down that
14:55
path session. Sure. Sure. Yeah. I'm sorry I
14:57
took us there. Sorry. No no worries at
14:58
all. But I I wanted to ask about
15:00
a few of your resolutions.
15:02
One is elevating frontline workers, the people who
15:04
are actually doing the work of health care
15:07
in these organizations,
15:08
rooting out toxic positivity, ending performative initiatives.
15:13
I think all of these things really require,
15:15
these leaders at these companies to seed some
15:18
of their power or or at least confront
15:21
entrenched interests, within their own organizations, which, as
15:24
you know, across the industry, these companies can
15:27
be massive.
15:28
So what makes you confident that
15:30
executives
15:32
will actually do this, can actually do this
15:34
kind of thing, rather than simply agreeing with
15:36
you having the good intentions,
15:38
but then moving on same as usual?
15:41
Well, I think we need to change. I
15:42
think everyone knows we need to change. I
15:44
think most people in the middle ranks of
15:46
most health care organizations
15:48
are miserable.
15:49
And I'll tell you why they're miserable. They're
15:50
miserable because there's the happy talk that's coming
15:53
from the top, and then there's the frontline
15:55
reality that they're trying to manage and buffer.
15:58
And they are struggling with the cognitive dissonance
16:02
of the words they hear from their bosses
16:04
and the cries that they hear from the
16:07
front lines
16:08
and,
16:09
you know, the impact that they may not
16:11
be having on patients.
16:14
And so I think, you know, most people
16:16
live with a certain
16:18
amount of cognitive dissonance and moral discomfort.
16:21
And I think, you know, part of what
16:23
I wanted to do with these resolutions is
16:25
give them a language, give these folks a
16:27
language,
16:28
and maybe even point to me or point
16:30
to this article and say, look at what
16:32
this guy's saying. How does this apply to
16:33
our organization?
16:35
It's not easy for someone to say these
16:36
things out loud themselves. They are the things
16:38
that they grumble about when they're talking to
16:40
their friends and their families.
16:42
But, you know, if it's an article form,
16:44
maybe it's the kind of thing that can
16:46
circulate
16:47
and start a productive conversation
16:49
about how these behaviors are happening in one's
16:52
organizations and how they can move beyond them.
16:55
So you're laying the groundwork for other leaders,
16:58
to
16:59
to use themselves, Sachin. I wonder, you know,
17:02
jumping off of what we what we talked
17:04
about, and what we saw last week in
17:06
congress with some of the CEOs of the
17:07
largest insurers,
17:09
and and what was said or or what
17:11
was not said, I think.
17:13
Do you see examples of what you're talking
17:15
about today already happening in the industry? Is
17:18
there something you would point to that gives
17:19
you hope that the industry is on the
17:21
right path,
17:23
or or am I framing that correctly? How
17:24
would you describe where we're at in this
17:26
process? You know, I give the folks at
17:27
AHIP,
17:29
a a a lot of credit for some
17:31
of the work that came out of the
17:33
post Brian Thompson murder. Right? The reform
17:37
that they put in place, I think, was
17:39
was meaningful, and it was potentially transformative. Certainly
17:42
steps in the right direction and something that
17:44
we at Scan
17:45
have participated in as well.
17:47
That said, I don't think we're going far
17:49
enough because I think
17:51
what the dominant culture is is to
17:54
treat answering phones,
17:56
and and contracting networks like we're saving lives.
17:59
And
18:00
I have a message to everyone in the
18:02
pair industry who,
18:04
you know, believes that we're saving lives we're
18:06
not. I think the people on the front
18:08
lines of care delivery
18:09
are. Our work is to enable those people.
18:12
But in many cases, we're putting barriers up
18:14
to people actually accessing care, and we have
18:17
to make things
18:18
as easy as possible. We have to treat
18:19
people like they're human beings,
18:21
and we have to rehumanize our industry. I
18:23
think that that term, rehumanization,
18:27
is something that
18:28
really needs to start to resonate and percolate
18:31
in boardrooms and management teams
18:34
because,
18:36
unfortunately, a lot of what people have experienced
18:38
is actually dehumanization,
18:39
not not humanization.
18:42
Wonderful. I I think that's a really good
18:44
place to leave things, doctor Jain. So I
18:46
wanna thank you for taking the time to
18:48
chat with me on the podcast, and as
18:50
always for for being candid with us and
18:52
with our listeners,
18:54
in what you said can often be,
18:56
an industry and and periods where it's difficult
18:59
to to hear those kinds of perspectives. So
19:02
thank you for doing so. I really appreciate
19:04
it. Always a pleasure, Jacob. Thank you so
19:06
much, and, really appreciate the time. Yeah. Likewise.
19:09
And and to our listeners, if you'd like
19:10
to listen to more podcasts from Becker's, you
19:12
can visit beckershospitalreview.com.