Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Shock verdict in Jessica Chambers teen cheerleader burned alive! Will killer walk free?

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Shock verdict in Jessica Chambers teen cheerleader burned alive! Will killer walk free? · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

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Speaker 1: Nancy Grace. Do you remember the moment when you heard
1:29
Speaker 1: your daughter was a fire victim? Oh? Yes, my own
1:35
Speaker 1: real man, It's just like it was yesterday, you know
1:38
Speaker 1: it was. I just didn't want to believe it at
1:41
Speaker 1: first when they called me, you know, I thought maybe, uh,
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Speaker 1: you know, she was just just a little bit, you know,
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Speaker 1: uh uh. I couldn't imagine the scale it was, you know.
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Speaker 1: And I asked Barry, was she okay? And you know,
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Speaker 1: and he got real solid and uh he said, no, man,
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Speaker 1: not my whole world failure, you know. In a stunning twist,
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Speaker 1: court watchers are amazed the second Jessica Chambers murder trial,
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Speaker 1: where a young teen cheerleader out of Mississippi was burned alive,
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Speaker 1: has hung. I Meancy Grace, this is crime Stories. Thank
2:24
Speaker 1: you for being with us straight out to to rest.
2:27
Speaker 1: April with the Clarion Ledger newspaper reporter on the case
2:30
Speaker 1: from the beginning to rest, I don't understand it. Jessicau's
2:36
Speaker 1: parents have got to be devastated. Their little girl, their
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Speaker 1: teen girl found by a motorist, struggling, wandering down the
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Speaker 1: side of the road and nothing but her underwear, her
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Speaker 1: body completely charred black, literally the skin hanging off of
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Speaker 1: her nose and mouth, and the jury hung helped me
3:02
Speaker 1: to rest. I think what you just said is what
3:04
Speaker 1: a lot of us felt because um, the prosecution, you know,
3:08
Speaker 1: this was a retrial. There was a mistrial last time too,
3:11
Speaker 1: and the prosecution brought so much more evidence and had
3:14
Speaker 1: a much stronger case, while the defense looked a little
3:17
Speaker 1: disorganized and Um. Even as we stood in the parking
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Speaker 1: lot with the rest of the media, UM, the consensus was,
3:24
Speaker 1: um that you know, he was probably guilty among the
3:28
Speaker 1: media folks that were in the parking lot there as
3:30
Speaker 1: you kind of as we talked, UM. I think the
3:33
Speaker 1: interesting thing was that when they came back hung it
3:38
Speaker 1: was like everybody, I just thought, are you kidding? And
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Speaker 1: part of it was, you know, after having watched the trial,
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Speaker 1: and part of it was do we have to do
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Speaker 1: this again again. When you say amongst the media everyone
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Speaker 1: thought he was quote probably guilty, I assume what you
3:54
Speaker 1: meant to say is that he would probably be found
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Speaker 1: guilty because they standard of reasonable doubt. It's a lot
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Speaker 1: more than he probably guilty, right right. As an objective journalist,
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Speaker 1: I did definitely phrase that wrong, but it was kind
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Speaker 1: of what do we think the outcome of this is
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Speaker 1: going to be? My you know, all of us were saying,
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Speaker 1: you know, my thought is it it's leaning towards guilty
4:13
Speaker 1: is going to be the verdict? Well, how did the
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Speaker 1: jury act when they came out? They should have been
4:17
Speaker 1: hanging their heads. Um they I mean, it was very
4:20
Speaker 1: much just they walked out and sat down. And I
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Speaker 1: think after after twelve hours roughly of deliberation, UM, they
4:28
Speaker 1: had they had called for basically some slides from the presentation.
4:32
Speaker 1: They wanted to see him again and um, Paul Ralett
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Speaker 1: came out and was able to show them those slides,
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Speaker 1: but he was not able to make any commentary. And
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Speaker 1: I believe it was maybe twenty thirty minutes after that
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Speaker 1: that they came back and said they weren't going to
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Speaker 1: be able to make a decision. And and you just
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Speaker 1: got the feeling this this jury has listened throughout. They've
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Speaker 1: been very attentive, they had asked questions. UM, it did
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Speaker 1: appear to be just really they could not agree. Another
4:56
Speaker 1: issue is is my understanding neither side asked to Paul
5:00
Speaker 1: old the jurars and that that kind of shocked me,
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Speaker 1: especially after you know, I really expected at least the
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Speaker 1: prosecution to pull the jur's I'm stunned. I am stunned.
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Speaker 1: Joining me along with Terress April from the Clarion Ledger newspaper.
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Speaker 1: Vincent Hill, cop turned p I, renowned forensics investigator, Joseph
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Speaker 1: Scott Morgan, Professor of Forensics at Jacksonville State University and
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Speaker 1: author of Blood Beneath My Feet. Ashley Wilcott, judge, lawyer,
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Speaker 1: founder of Child Crime watch dot com, and New York
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Speaker 1: psychologists joining us from Manhattan Karen Stark Ashley Wilcott. Never ever,
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Speaker 1: in all the trials I've had, which I can't even
5:43
Speaker 1: count past a hundred jury trials at least, have I
5:47
Speaker 1: ever had a jury trial where the jury was not
5:51
Speaker 1: pulled at the end, typically by whoever lost. You pull
5:56
Speaker 1: the jury, You look who in the eye and make
5:59
Speaker 1: each one in to visually say that was my verdict,
6:02
Speaker 1: and that was my verdict in the jury room, and
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Speaker 1: it is now my verdict. You have to pull the jury.
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Speaker 1: What is going on in this court room? I agree
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Speaker 1: with you, that's typically what's done. I have no idea
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Speaker 1: why they would not pull the jury. It's almost like
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Speaker 1: prosecution was in shock and wasn't thinking and doing the
6:19
Speaker 1: right legal steps, which is to pull the jury. It's
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Speaker 1: wild in this case, Nancy. There's one other thing. I
6:24
Speaker 1: just have to say at this point, and that is
6:25
Speaker 1: you know, I was covering this for long crime and
6:28
Speaker 1: one of the things I kept saying was there too
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Speaker 1: many first responders testifying that they heard her say Eric,
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Speaker 1: and I still believe that that's the reasonable doubt that
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Speaker 1: this jury hangs their hat on. Well, I agree with that.
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Speaker 1: To rest April Clary Ledger, please explain what Ashley is
6:42
Speaker 1: talking about. Well, there was there were several first responders
6:45
Speaker 1: that they brought up, UM, who said that they were
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Speaker 1: at the scene and that Jessica had said something that
6:51
Speaker 1: sounded like Eric. Now. Last year, when we tried this
6:55
Speaker 1: case the first time, UM, the first responders basically the
6:58
Speaker 1: prosecution would ask him what you hear her say and
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Speaker 1: they'd say, well, she said Eric. Um. This time they
7:03
Speaker 1: went as far as to say, well, what did it
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Speaker 1: sound like? And were you actually standing there or did
7:08
Speaker 1: you you know, did you have to lean down, did
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Speaker 1: you get in her face? How far were you from
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Speaker 1: you know, things like that. Um. So the prosecution felt
7:15
Speaker 1: that they had countered the Eric thing well enough, because
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Speaker 1: they also had two experts who said that Jessica would
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Speaker 1: have been able to pronounce sounds but not enunciate continents.
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Speaker 1: Really well, hold on, let's back it up a minute
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Speaker 1: and explain exactly what Ashley Wilcott is talking about. The
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Speaker 1: man on trial for the burning murder of Jessica Chambers
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Speaker 1: is a long time fell on one of her murder
7:39
Speaker 1: in Louisiana of another young girl, and his name is
7:42
Speaker 1: Quentin tell Us. Phone records indicate, do they not, Joseph
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Speaker 1: Scott Morgan, that tell Us was with Jessica throughout the
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Speaker 1: entire day, even though he lied to cops about where
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Speaker 1: he was, and that was shown to the jury on
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Speaker 1: videotaped audio taped interrogations, he lied until confronted with phone
8:00
Speaker 1: records that place his telephone his cell phone basically on
8:05
Speaker 1: top of her cell phone signal. In just within the
8:08
Speaker 1: hour or so before her murder. He's with her out
8:12
Speaker 1: in a field. Then their phones go to the spot
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Speaker 1: where the car is found burned to a crisp. His
8:20
Speaker 1: phone goes there. Then video surveillance sees him going into
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Speaker 1: his house and to his house and his sister's car
8:27
Speaker 1: where he keeps a gas can full of gas and
8:30
Speaker 1: a shed, coming out in less than two minutes and
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Speaker 1: going toward the scene of the fire. When first responders
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Speaker 1: got to Jessica Chambers. They said, who did this to you?
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Speaker 1: Her throat and mouth and air passageways were completely charred black,
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Speaker 1: and she said something like which was interpreted to be Eric.
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Speaker 1: I think it was tell Us, and it's my understanding
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Speaker 1: that is what's caused the confusion. Joseph Scott Morgan, that's
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Speaker 1: what we're talking about. I'm dumbfounded A share A share
9:07
Speaker 1: with Ashley in this in this state of mind, I
9:09
Speaker 1: can't imagine it. Electronic triangulation, triangulation of the phone signal. U. Hey, listen, Nancy.
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Speaker 1: We have got a mountain. We've got a mountain of
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Speaker 1: forensic evidence here, electronic evidence, we've got DNA evidence, we've
9:23
Speaker 1: got fire science evidence here that that are all solid
9:27
Speaker 1: tie backs. And the fact that this case, that this
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Speaker 1: case would literally hang hang on a single utterance that
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Speaker 1: this young poor girl uh spoke after her after her
9:39
Speaker 1: throat had been absolutely destroyed. And they even tried to
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Speaker 1: mitigate this by bringing in a speech pathologist uh to
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Speaker 1: to talk to this and they beat this thing to death.
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Speaker 1: We're told the jurors were split fifty fifty with their decision.
9:52
Speaker 1: Half we're going guilty, half we're going not guilty. We
9:55
Speaker 1: knew throughout the day they were having trouble reaching a
9:57
Speaker 1: unanimous verdict, But the state says at this time around,
10:00
Speaker 1: they wouldn't have done anything differently. They introduced new witnesses.
10:03
Speaker 1: They said that they painted a clearer picture in this trial.
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Speaker 1: But the defense is they think the jurors were asked
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Speaker 1: to jump to different conclusions in order to put tell
10:10
Speaker 1: Us at the scene. And of course there's always going
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Speaker 1: to be questions tied around Jessica Chamber's final words. Part
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Speaker 1: of our system of justice, which we all UH fight
10:20
Speaker 1: jealous to protect and preserve, every defendant comes in this
10:25
Speaker 1: court is entitled to a jury that's as conscientious as
10:28
Speaker 1: you are about the jurish rights. And I respect your decisions.
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Speaker 1: Your inability to reach your verdict is not meaning that
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Speaker 1: you've not done an admirable job, because you have UH
10:40
Speaker 1: and this court appreciates it. So with that, I'm gonna
10:44
Speaker 1: send you. I'm going to declare a missed trial in
10:46
Speaker 1: this case, and I want to send you back to
10:48
Speaker 1: your jury room and we'll be sending you home very shortly.
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Speaker 1: Penela County Circuit Court Judge Gerald Chatham, announcing the jury
10:58
Speaker 1: is hung, I I don't even know what to think.
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Speaker 1: Joining me New York psychologist Karen Stark, judge and lawyer,
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Speaker 1: founder child crime watch dot Com, Ashley Willcott Dessine, investigator
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Speaker 1: Joe Scott, Morgan, cop turn p I, Vincent Hill, and
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Speaker 1: reporter from The Clarion Ledger to rest April. I want
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Speaker 1: you to listen to what the speech pathologist Dr Carol
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Speaker 1: Higden testify to. You have to have the breadth pressure first,
11:27
Speaker 1: so if the lungs are damaged, they're not going to
11:30
Speaker 1: be elastic enough to take in the amount of the
11:33
Speaker 1: air to allow that to push on through the vocal folds.
11:37
Speaker 1: And then the pharyngeal area you said a minute ago,
11:40
Speaker 1: exactly what is that? The orangel area is what we
11:43
Speaker 1: call our voice box. It's where our vocal folds are,
11:47
Speaker 1: are larynx, and if those are damaged by inhalation of
11:53
Speaker 1: smoker fire, would that affect the ability to make an
11:57
Speaker 1: articulate sound. Yes, it would. The vocal folds are very
12:00
Speaker 1: thin and they're very pliable, and if there's anything that
12:06
Speaker 1: attaches to those cords, it's going to keep them from
12:09
Speaker 1: moving the way they should. I use my hands like this, um,
12:13
Speaker 1: but I tell students all the time. You um, the
12:17
Speaker 1: cords are to look like this, but if there's anything impinging,
12:21
Speaker 1: like a growth or something hanging on the cord, they're
12:24
Speaker 1: not going to close and open the way they're supposed to.
12:28
Speaker 1: It does. You're hearing speech pathologist Dr Caroline Higden testifying
12:32
Speaker 1: in court Jessica Chambers horrific burns would have kept her
12:37
Speaker 1: from speaking because her lungs could not have pushed the
12:40
Speaker 1: air through her voice box. It's very plain to me.
12:45
Speaker 1: I don't understand d Vincent Hill caught turn p I
12:49
Speaker 1: what went wrong? I mean to me, the phone records themselves,
12:52
Speaker 1: the text of him pestering her all day long for
12:55
Speaker 1: sex and her saying no, and then she's found naked
12:59
Speaker 1: except for her under where her rear in and the
13:01
Speaker 1: soles of her feet were the only things unburned. Clearly
13:06
Speaker 1: she had been in that car, forced back on a
13:10
Speaker 1: car seat before she was burned alive. There's no doubt
13:14
Speaker 1: in my mind who else would it have been but him?
13:17
Speaker 1: I agree, Nancy, but I think what the jury was
13:19
Speaker 1: up against. And here's why we have the fifty Not
13:22
Speaker 1: only did you have the ten first responders saying she said,
13:24
Speaker 1: Erica Derrek, the fire chief said, when he asked her name,
13:27
Speaker 1: she said Jessica Chambers. So I'm sure half that jury's
13:30
Speaker 1: mind you have this speech speech pathologist say, I've got
13:35
Speaker 1: Jackie who wa hold on, hold on, hold on, good
13:38
Speaker 1: looking Jackie. What are you over there? Saying one of
13:41
Speaker 1: the firefighters said, she said, Jessica. Uh, yeah, she's right,
13:46
Speaker 1: Vincent Hill, She's right. When as she said Jessica Chambers,
13:52
Speaker 1: she couldn't she enunciate hello, She's right. But my point
13:57
Speaker 1: is she was able to articulate enough for him to
14:00
Speaker 1: understand the word Jessica. And I think because he knew
14:03
Speaker 1: that Karen Stark psychologist, can you do something with Vincent
14:07
Speaker 1: Hill plays because they knew she was saying Jessica Chambers,
14:11
Speaker 1: because they knew it was Jessica Chambers. So when she
14:14
Speaker 1: said Chamber, they knew she meant Chambers, just like when
14:18
Speaker 1: she said, oh, I know, she's saying, tell us the
14:21
Speaker 1: phone records, tell me who did this thing? You know, Natcy,
14:25
Speaker 1: When I think about this, I think it's really a
14:28
Speaker 1: shame that anybody asked her any questions at all, because
14:32
Speaker 1: that little bit of her attempting to speak and coming
14:36
Speaker 1: out with words that they could use to say this
14:40
Speaker 1: is what she said, wound up being used against her,
14:44
Speaker 1: so that this man who obviously was there and involved,
14:49
Speaker 1: doesn't get to serve the sentence that he deserves. And
14:53
Speaker 1: I hate to say that because I'm not a jury
14:57
Speaker 1: I wasn't sitting there. But why do you hate to
15:00
Speaker 1: say it if you think it's the truth. Why would
15:02
Speaker 1: anyone hate to say something they think is the truth.
15:05
Speaker 1: The jury didn't find him guilty, and that's so horrific
15:08
Speaker 1: given the circumstances that it makes you. I just don't
15:12
Speaker 1: even know what to think. Karen could have been served, Karen,
15:17
Speaker 1: I got to ask you another question. I'm sitting here
15:19
Speaker 1: looking right at a photo of Quentin tell Us, all
15:23
Speaker 1: dressed up and well groomed, flanked by all his lawyers
15:26
Speaker 1: in court. When I tried cases, I would not even
15:29
Speaker 1: look over at the defendant to my right. I would
15:33
Speaker 1: not ever even look over there. I would look at
15:36
Speaker 1: the jury, which was always too immediately beside council table,
15:40
Speaker 1: the state's council table, the witness chair, and the judge.
15:44
Speaker 1: Never and now I remember why very distinctly, because it
15:48
Speaker 1: absolutely makes me sick to look at his face, and
15:53
Speaker 1: no he did this thing, and we know the backdrop
15:56
Speaker 1: that he's wonted for another murder in Louisiana of a
15:59
Speaker 1: younger student, a young student, Mandy So, Yes, yes, And
16:04
Speaker 1: he was with her right before her murder, her torture, murder,
16:07
Speaker 1: multiple stab wounds, dead. He has her a t M.
16:11
Speaker 1: He's trying to put his own family up to using
16:13
Speaker 1: her a t M and getting all the money out
16:15
Speaker 1: and those wounds, according to police and Mandy So, we're
16:18
Speaker 1: inflicted thirty plus knife wounds to get her to give
16:22
Speaker 1: up the a t M password. Oh yeah, see, I
16:25
Speaker 1: know that is happening in the back in the backdrop,
16:29
Speaker 1: I know this guy's criminal history which the jury didn't know,
16:33
Speaker 1: and I know most importantly the phone records. And you
16:37
Speaker 1: gotta ask, you gotta ask to Askly Wilcott. You're a judge,
16:42
Speaker 1: you're a lawyer. Why would he lie to police? Why
16:47
Speaker 1: lie about it? If you're trying to find the killer
16:49
Speaker 1: of a girl you know and a girl you claimed
16:53
Speaker 1: to be friends with, why wouldn't you tell the truth.
16:54
Speaker 1: Why would you lie? Oh, you lie because you're covering up.
16:57
Speaker 1: You lie because you did it and you don't want
16:59
Speaker 1: to get caught And you. Once you lie, you can't
17:01
Speaker 1: remember what story you told, so you continue to lie,
17:03
Speaker 1: which he continued to do in this case. I think
17:05
Speaker 1: that's clearly indicative of the fact that he committed this. Quell.
17:08
Speaker 1: Somebody agrees with you besides me h t F Agent
17:11
Speaker 1: Scott Meadows. Listen to his testimony in this particular case.
17:15
Speaker 1: Do you believe that Quintin was being deceptive purposely? I do, indeed, yes, sir.
17:22
Speaker 1: And when would Quinton change the deception that he was
17:27
Speaker 1: putting on y'all in the videos? One confronted with the
17:30
Speaker 1: evidence and once you confronted him with the evidence, did
17:34
Speaker 1: he agree with what you confronted him with? His story
17:38
Speaker 1: changed to match what he was just Sean And through
17:42
Speaker 1: the years of dealing with with interviews, do people have
17:48
Speaker 1: a reason to lie are being deceptive? They do? And
17:52
Speaker 1: what would would that reason? Because they're guilty now to
17:56
Speaker 1: to rest April with the clarion Ledger, can tell us
18:00
Speaker 1: be tried again? Yes he can, and I think right
18:04
Speaker 1: now there's a lot of hard decisions being made about that.
18:06
Speaker 1: With the case in Louisiana, he's going straight back there
18:09
Speaker 1: and they're gonna They've got a couple of other charges
18:12
Speaker 1: on him in addition to what's going on with um
18:16
Speaker 1: the other murder. And so I guess they're gonna wait
18:19
Speaker 1: and see what's going on with Louisiana, how that pans out,
18:22
Speaker 1: before they really focused on trying tell us here in
18:26
Speaker 1: Mississippi again, Well, I tell you, I really believe at
18:30
Speaker 1: this juncture to you, Ashley Willcott, that they need to
18:34
Speaker 1: bring in a special prosecutor. I'm volunteering myself to go
18:39
Speaker 1: and try this case and try to get a guilty verdict.
18:42
Speaker 1: And I mean that because something is not working with
18:47
Speaker 1: the prosecution. I don't know if it's the jury selection,
18:50
Speaker 1: I don't know what it is. But this guy brutally
18:55
Speaker 1: murder Jessica Chambers, probably raped or two, although he's not
18:58
Speaker 1: charged with it. Ashley, I think that they have to
19:00
Speaker 1: do something different. I agree with you completely because the
19:03
Speaker 1: other piece of this is they even this second child,
19:05
Speaker 1: did something different. They tried to get rid of the hole.
19:08
Speaker 1: She said, Eric to first responders is the person who
19:10
Speaker 1: did it. By actually having an expert testify, it wasn't
19:14
Speaker 1: possible for her to articulate that whether or not you
19:17
Speaker 1: agree with that expert, they win an extra step to
19:19
Speaker 1: try to present the evidence the best that they could,
19:22
Speaker 1: but they're still not getting a conviction. So something needs
19:25
Speaker 1: to be different, done differently. Perhaps another change of venue
19:28
Speaker 1: is something they need to consider along with the special prosecutor.
19:31
Speaker 1: What haunts me is hearing Ben Chambers telling me about
19:35
Speaker 1: how he raced to the hospital, beating a helicopter to
19:39
Speaker 1: get to his daughter and never got to speak to
19:42
Speaker 1: her before she died. You know what, this guy needs
19:46
Speaker 1: to be in jail in Mississippi. Doesn't need to count
19:50
Speaker 1: on Louisiana to do their duty. To call a little
19:56
Speaker 1: bit after one o'clock from one what we believed to
19:59
Speaker 1: be one of the victims saying that her sister was
20:01
Speaker 1: trying to stab her. A fifteen year old girl now
20:04
Speaker 1: accused of fatally stabbing her mother and sister dead. How
20:11
Speaker 1: does this happen? Limestone County Sheriff's Office spokespersus Stephen Young
20:15
Speaker 1: says the teen is being charged as a juvenile. What
20:20
Speaker 1: went wrong? Joining me from the jurisdiction talk show host
20:25
Speaker 1: David mac David, what do we know? As you mentioned,
20:28
Speaker 1: they are treating her as a juvenile, which means they're
20:31
Speaker 1: stealing everything. It's all difficult to get information. However, we
20:33
Speaker 1: didn't know that the that the nine one one call
20:36
Speaker 1: that was heard. They could hear the mother and the
20:38
Speaker 1: older's daughter pleading for her to police stop. When police arrived.
20:42
Speaker 1: They had been to the house before. They had had
20:44
Speaker 1: other involvement with this family in the past over domestic
20:47
Speaker 1: violence issues, and when police showed up, the fifteen year
20:49
Speaker 1: old was stabbing herself in the head, the neck, and
20:52
Speaker 1: the chest. What we know right now is that a
20:54
Speaker 1: mother and a daughter are both dead. Investigators say they
20:58
Speaker 1: have an audio recording of the girl, the teen girl,
21:02
Speaker 1: brutally murdering her teen sister and her mother, but they
21:07
Speaker 1: have no idea what sparked this. The stabbing death of
21:13
Speaker 1: Rosa and daughter Rosa have just occurred, and it was
21:17
Speaker 1: moments after the teen girl victim calls nine one one.
21:23
Speaker 1: You hear the girl begging and pleading for help, and
21:27
Speaker 1: you hear the mother actually taking her last breath and
21:31
Speaker 1: dying on the phone. Joining me right now. Renowned psychologist
21:39
Speaker 1: Dr Karen Stark, medical examiner out of the Fulton County Jurisdiction.
21:42
Speaker 1: Dr Jan Gorniac talk show hosted David mac, forensics expert
21:48
Speaker 1: Karen Smith and crime Online Dot com investigative reporter Larry
21:52
Speaker 1: may Her Karen Stark, It's really hard for me to
21:55
Speaker 1: believe there were no warning signs this was going to
21:59
Speaker 1: happen with a seen girl, Nancy. There had to have
22:02
Speaker 1: been learning science, and I can't imagine that Bill were none,
22:06
Speaker 1: just like you, because this is somebody who in fact
22:10
Speaker 1: has she's a sociotat, she's able to kill. So you
22:14
Speaker 1: see those kinds of signs very early on. They needed
22:18
Speaker 1: to look at what was happening in school and happened
22:22
Speaker 1: when she was around animals. You know, all the things
22:25
Speaker 1: that we look for when you're talking about someone who
22:28
Speaker 1: is capable of committing murder. The teen sister quote had
22:31
Speaker 1: a great smile, just beautiful. One of the recollections a
22:36
Speaker 1: teacher at her school said is that how much she
22:40
Speaker 1: loved and took care of all her friends, that if
22:43
Speaker 1: you were her friend, quote, you were well cared for.
22:46
Speaker 1: I'm just wondering about the sibling relationship, you know, because
22:52
Speaker 1: I noticed Karen start whenever I say, oh, John David,
22:55
Speaker 1: you're so precious, Lucy says, am I precious? Or you know,
22:59
Speaker 1: it's just is so funny how much the sibling rivalry
23:04
Speaker 1: bruise just beneath the surface, even in good fun, and
23:08
Speaker 1: this is erupted to a fifteen year old girl stabbing
23:11
Speaker 1: her teen sister dad and the mother too. That's that's
23:14
Speaker 1: how you know, Nancy, that they're psychosis involved in this,
23:18
Speaker 1: that it's much more than just regular sibling rivalry. Because yes,
23:24
Speaker 1: siblings are competitive, that's not unusual and you see it
23:28
Speaker 1: all the time. But when you have a situation like
23:30
Speaker 1: this where it gets to the point where she's killing
23:33
Speaker 1: her sister, that means that this person has extreme emotional problems.
23:39
Speaker 1: You're not talking about somebody who's just a teenager going
23:43
Speaker 1: through the usual trous and tribulations that teenagers go through.
23:47
Speaker 1: And I'm not saying it's a mental illness where she
23:49
Speaker 1: didn't know right from wrong, but it certainly speaks to
23:53
Speaker 1: antisocial personality and someone who has the capacity to kill
23:58
Speaker 1: because they can't deal with their rage and jealousy. You know,
24:02
Speaker 1: I'm looking at a photo right now of the mother,
24:04
Speaker 1: Rosa and the team girl that is now dead, and
24:09
Speaker 1: they're both so beautiful. Nobody has any idea what sparked this.
24:16
Speaker 1: The last moments of their lives were caught on a
24:18
Speaker 1: nine one one column that we are not playing. To
24:22
Speaker 1: Dr Jeanne Gorniac joining us the defendant. The suspect was
24:28
Speaker 1: found in the home with very superficial cuts to her
24:32
Speaker 1: own body after she murders her mom and sister. What
24:37
Speaker 1: does that mean? Superficial cuts to her body? Um? Superficial
24:41
Speaker 1: means that they didn't go deep. So it's just like
24:44
Speaker 1: more of like a scrape. Um whether it's from I'm
24:47
Speaker 1: not sure if it's from the sharp force injury or
24:49
Speaker 1: the sharp force implement that they used to injure her
24:52
Speaker 1: her mom and her sister. Or does she have an
24:54
Speaker 1: abrasion on her knee? Um? Was there a sign of
24:57
Speaker 1: a struggle or um? A sign of a struggle? That's
25:02
Speaker 1: all I could say. Um, So superficial meaning they're not deep,
25:04
Speaker 1: They're not they're not fatal, they're not um future or
25:08
Speaker 1: anything like that. To Karen Smith, a forensics expert, joining
25:12
Speaker 1: us out of the floor to jurisdiction, Karen, when we
25:14
Speaker 1: look at the crime, when we look at the scene,
25:18
Speaker 1: what will we be able to tell about how this
25:20
Speaker 1: incident went down? Well, the blood evidence is going to
25:22
Speaker 1: be key. You can tell from blood evidence where the
25:26
Speaker 1: perpetrator may have been in relation to the victim. When
25:30
Speaker 1: you have a stabbing that is a close quarter combat situation,
25:33
Speaker 1: you have to be right up on the person. So
25:36
Speaker 1: when you look at the blood spatter, is it close
25:39
Speaker 1: to the floor, is it up on the walls, is
25:41
Speaker 1: it on the furniture? Was their movement? Was there a
25:45
Speaker 1: pursuit through the house after one of the victims? Those
25:48
Speaker 1: are going to be key elements to tell where it started,
25:52
Speaker 1: where it ended, where people moved during the situation. You know,
25:56
Speaker 1: the number of stab wounds is going to be telling
25:58
Speaker 1: as well. Where the victims were stabbed on their body? Now,
26:02
Speaker 1: was it in the back, was it in the front?
26:04
Speaker 1: Was it in their neck? Was it in their legs?
26:06
Speaker 1: Um are their defensive wounds? And this young girl who
26:10
Speaker 1: apparently perpetrated this crime, they're going to be looking closely
26:12
Speaker 1: at her injuries as well. And to Dr Jane Gourney Act,
26:15
Speaker 1: following up on what Karen Smith has just told us,
26:17
Speaker 1: Dr Gourney Act, She's right. If you're looking at where
26:20
Speaker 1: their stab wounds in the back and where they found
26:23
Speaker 1: lying on their back, that would suggest to me that
26:26
Speaker 1: the attack first started from behind. We also know Dr
26:30
Speaker 1: Gourney at that on the No One call, you can
26:33
Speaker 1: hear the victims begging her to stop stabbing them, the
26:36
Speaker 1: mother and her teen girl. Dr Gourney at you cannot
26:40
Speaker 1: date stab wounds, like tell which one was first, or
26:44
Speaker 1: can you? Nancy, You're actually correct, we cannot tell which
26:47
Speaker 1: one came came first. One thing that's important, Like you said,
26:50
Speaker 1: I mean there could be stab wounds in the back.
26:52
Speaker 1: That doesn't mean those who are inflicted first. Obviously people
26:56
Speaker 1: are going to turn to get away from it. So
26:58
Speaker 1: he's gonna have stab wounds or in size wounds of
27:01
Speaker 1: the hands or defensive wounds and then they're trying to
27:04
Speaker 1: turn around. But also depending on where that stab wound
27:08
Speaker 1: is in the back, isn't immediately fatal. So someone actually
27:12
Speaker 1: talking and saying stopped, you know hearing that doesn't mean
27:15
Speaker 1: they weren't stabbed at the time. Um, but they could
27:17
Speaker 1: have had fatal injury. They just hadn't succumb to them
27:20
Speaker 1: at that time. Joining me is Larry may Her Crime
27:23
Speaker 1: Online dot Com investigative reporter Larry What more do we know? Nancy?
27:26
Speaker 1: Deputy say the evidence that they collected from the scene
27:29
Speaker 1: suggests the fifteen year old was actually cutting on herself,
27:34
Speaker 1: trying to commit suicide. Apparently when the attack began, that
27:37
Speaker 1: she apparently turned the knife on her sister and mother
27:41
Speaker 1: when they found her cutting herself. She has been charged
27:46
Speaker 1: with two counts of capital murder, and as we have
27:50
Speaker 1: mentioned earlier, she's being charged as a juvenile, which means
27:53
Speaker 1: her name is not being made public and most of
27:56
Speaker 1: the record about the crime scene has been sealed. We
27:59
Speaker 1: have laur into that while the victims are begging their
28:02
Speaker 1: attack or their sister or daughter to stop, several knives
28:07
Speaker 1: were used in the double homicide. So this team girl
28:13
Speaker 1: was armed with multiple knives as she killed her mother
28:18
Speaker 1: and her sister. Take a listen to the Limestone County
28:22
Speaker 1: Sheriff Mike Blakely speaking to w h N T my
28:25
Speaker 1: four seven years long enforce. Probably one of the worst
28:28
Speaker 1: calls that I've said and listened to, Probably one of
28:33
Speaker 1: the more fattest situations I've ever seen. As you know,
28:35
Speaker 1: we had a six month baby. Uh. It was a
28:38
Speaker 1: victim of a first degree murder, uh in a fire.
28:43
Speaker 1: We have arrested one female in that case. The investigation
28:46
Speaker 1: is still ongoing. Which did the did the suspect, no,
28:49
Speaker 1: the family know the mother? Do we do we know
28:51
Speaker 1: anything about that? Yet yes, this individual had a relationship
28:55
Speaker 1: with the family and it certainly had access to the child. Um,
29:00
Speaker 1: so you know, we're still betting through those things. But lady,
29:03
Speaker 1: it wasn't a random wasn't a random act, which is
29:06
Speaker 1: which is important for us to put out. It certainly
29:08
Speaker 1: was an individual who knew the child and had access
29:11
Speaker 1: to the child. A woman twenty five years old allegedly
29:16
Speaker 1: kidnaps a baby boy along with two men, then set
29:19
Speaker 1: the little baby on fire, leaving him to die on
29:24
Speaker 1: a Louisiana railroad track. I want justice. I mean, you see, grace,
29:31
Speaker 1: this is crime stories. Thank you for being with us.
29:33
Speaker 1: Take a listen to this neighbor. Initial non War one
29:36
Speaker 1: call went out at ninetien. You were outside, so it
29:41
Speaker 1: had to be like a thirty forty five. And if
29:44
Speaker 1: you someone just came and took your baby, I'm pretty
29:46
Speaker 1: sure we would have saw it or heard it or anything.
29:49
Speaker 1: We did not see nothing. The only time we saw
29:51
Speaker 1: her when she was running to the manager's office and
29:54
Speaker 1: knocking on the door. You are hearing a neighbor describing
29:56
Speaker 1: the actions of the mom that night. Joining me right now,
30:00
Speaker 1: Cheryl McCullum, director of the Cold Case Research Institute, Lauren Howard,
30:04
Speaker 1: renowned New York psychotherapist, Joseph Scott Morgan, death investigator, author
30:09
Speaker 1: of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, professor for ASICs
30:13
Speaker 1: Jacksonville State University, and Kathleen Murphy, North Carolina lawyer joining
30:17
Speaker 1: me right now. Crime online dot Com investigative reporter Larry
30:21
Speaker 1: Mayher Larry start at the beginning. How does a tiny
30:25
Speaker 1: infant end up being burned alive on railroad tracks? The
30:31
Speaker 1: story began with a call from the child's mother, who
30:36
Speaker 1: claimed that two men had kicked in her door, splashed
30:39
Speaker 1: her in the face with a caustic material like maze,
30:43
Speaker 1: and then made off with her child, and the child
30:46
Speaker 1: was found a mile or so away on fire. To
30:49
Speaker 1: Cheryl McCullum, Cold Case Research Institute Director, I find that
30:53
Speaker 1: very odd for two men to show up at the
30:55
Speaker 1: front door spray you in the face with macer pepper
30:58
Speaker 1: spray to get your baby for what, just to burn
31:02
Speaker 1: it alive? And I know the baby was alive at
31:04
Speaker 1: the time. I wish it had not been, but it
31:07
Speaker 1: was airlifted to the hospital in the hopes of saving it,
31:11
Speaker 1: so it had to be alive. When E. M. T.
31:14
Speaker 1: S Got to the fire. Correct, Nancy, the idea that
31:18
Speaker 1: two men that are unknown to her would pray her
31:22
Speaker 1: in the taste of what she believes was made or
31:24
Speaker 1: said it was, and that she ran well if made
31:29
Speaker 1: impeded her vision at all, She ran where and left
31:33
Speaker 1: her children behind in great danger. And not one but
31:38
Speaker 1: two men, Like you said, I decided to take only
31:40
Speaker 1: one of the children and murder him for what reason?
31:44
Speaker 1: And such a horrific man too. Just got Morgan, You
31:47
Speaker 1: make a living as a death investigator. Way in on
31:51
Speaker 1: the scene of the fire. Yeah, you've got you've got
31:54
Speaker 1: a Just imagine, Nancy, You've got a a fully involved
31:59
Speaker 1: fire of all child sitting where the small child is
32:03
Speaker 1: literally is literally the fuel for this fire in the
32:06
Speaker 1: midst of a railroad track. It's gonna be very specific.
32:10
Speaker 1: They apparently dousted this child in gasoline. There will be
32:14
Speaker 1: a very specific burn area uh where the child was
32:18
Speaker 1: seated and as well as well as uh, the child
32:23
Speaker 1: itself uh is just crusted, crusted as a result of
32:28
Speaker 1: of being burned. At this point in time. Uh. It
32:32
Speaker 1: boggles the imagination relative to this and the evidence that
32:37
Speaker 1: they're that they're that they're going to collect at the
32:40
Speaker 1: scene will involved. UH will involve collection of of of
32:43
Speaker 1: accelerance and anything else that's left behind, like the clothing
32:47
Speaker 1: that may have been burned off the body. But then
32:49
Speaker 1: they take the child, airlift the child to Shreeport, which
32:52
Speaker 1: is really not that far away from Nackadish and the
32:56
Speaker 1: child was pronounced dead at the hospital, so they will
32:58
Speaker 1: have had to go to the hospital and collect evidence
33:00
Speaker 1: there as well. To Kathleen Murphy, North Carolina family lawyer, Kathleen,
33:05
Speaker 1: I hear infants being stolen or tricking the mom out
33:09
Speaker 1: of getting giving handing over the baby to sell the
33:12
Speaker 1: baby or keep the baby as their own um. But
33:17
Speaker 1: I don't understand taking the baby just to kill the
33:20
Speaker 1: baby in such a gruesome man. Baby's name was Levi
33:24
Speaker 1: and I am stick to my stomach to hear about this.
33:27
Speaker 1: She poured dasoline all over him, burned him alive, turned
33:30
Speaker 1: around and went to work. Smith worked a few miles
33:33
Speaker 1: away at Iha. She walked into work like any other day,
33:37
Speaker 1: like nothing was wrong, except back on Brita Road, a
33:40
Speaker 1: fire was region. First responders found Levi on his stomach
33:45
Speaker 1: in the fire of his little body was burned. That
33:49
Speaker 1: is Josh Rogers from KTBSTV describing what Felicia Smith apparently
33:55
Speaker 1: told investigators about baby Levi's horrific death. Now Here's Josh
34:01
Speaker 1: at KTBS examining the relationship between the woman accused of
34:06
Speaker 1: killing baby Levi and Levi's own mother from the ashes
34:11
Speaker 1: of the fire, the mystery emerged, who is Felicia Smith?
34:15
Speaker 1: Why did investigators arrest her? And Levi's death? More investigating
34:20
Speaker 1: by KATVS revealed Barker and Smith were girlfriends, romantically involved,
34:25
Speaker 1: and a newborn baby is a large time commitment, sources
34:28
Speaker 1: tell KTBS. Jealousy may have gotten the best of Smith,
34:31
Speaker 1: so she sought a solution. A handwritten note in a
34:34
Speaker 1: court record says Smith confessed and now breaking news in
34:38
Speaker 1: the case. At first police have now arrested the mother
34:41
Speaker 1: of a six month old killed in a fire, and
34:43
Speaker 1: Nakadish Parish and the Louisiana State Fire Marshal's Office as
34:47
Speaker 1: twenty two year old Hannah Barker was arrested and charged
34:50
Speaker 1: with first degree murder. Earlier this week, twenty five year
34:53
Speaker 1: old Felicia Smith was also arrested in the death of
34:55
Speaker 1: six month old Levi ller By. Police now say she
34:59
Speaker 1: could face an other charge on top of the first
35:01
Speaker 1: degree murder charge. Police are telling us that Smith and
35:04
Speaker 1: Barker knew each other before the homicide. We talked with
35:07
Speaker 1: the Louisiana State Fire Marshal who says more rest could
35:11
Speaker 1: be coming. Our biggest responsibility and in the co Marshal's
35:14
Speaker 1: office when there's a fire, but more importantly the situation
35:17
Speaker 1: here where there's been a desk is it. We owe
35:20
Speaker 1: the facts to not only the family, the friends, but
35:23
Speaker 1: the public and I'm very proud of that. The method
35:26
Speaker 1: in which we're seeking any sacks and making sure we
35:29
Speaker 1: get it right. That is from our friends at k
35:32
Speaker 1: s l A reporting the arrest of the mother as
35:35
Speaker 1: well Larry mayher Wig in a fire Marshal's investigator testified
35:41
Speaker 1: at a bond hearing that Smith is identified as a
35:45
Speaker 1: girlfriend romantically of the mother, Hannah Barker. Smith confessed to
35:51
Speaker 1: setting the baby on fire. According to the investigator, Smith
35:55
Speaker 1: says she did it on instructions from the baby's mother.
36:00
Speaker 1: Smith says killing a little Levi was all Hannah Barker's idea,
36:05
Speaker 1: initially saying she wanted him shot to death and then
36:09
Speaker 1: to bird him until quote he was bones unquote. Smith
36:15
Speaker 1: says she put Levi on the ground next to the
36:17
Speaker 1: railroad track, poured gasoline on him, set him on fire,
36:22
Speaker 1: and then went to work her regular shift at an
36:24
Speaker 1: IHAP restaurant. Kathleen Murphy family lawyer out of North Carolina,
36:28
Speaker 1: I firmly believe this is a death penalty case. What
36:31
Speaker 1: do you think I do? I agree with that completely
36:34
Speaker 1: to say that that she was not a part of
36:39
Speaker 1: this and that she was sprayed with mace, But there's
36:41
Speaker 1: no mace, no chemical um uh that was found at
36:47
Speaker 1: the crime scene. The clear motive in this case is
36:51
Speaker 1: that she asked this woman, would you do anything for me?
36:54
Speaker 1: Even kill Levi? And I think it's adding up. She's
36:57
Speaker 1: changed her story so many times, and she was part
37:00
Speaker 1: of this investigation, a part of this crime. We wait
37:03
Speaker 1: as justice unfolds Nancy Grace's crime story, signing off goodbye friend.