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Episode #213: When Labels Break Us (and How We Mend) · Beyond Labels Premium

0:00
SPEAKER_00: Hi, everybody.
0:00
SPEAKER_00: Welcome to another episode of Beyond Labels with the farmer Joel Salatin.
0:05
SPEAKER_00: That would be me and our greatest scientist on the planet, Dr.
0:10
SPEAKER_00: Cena McCullough.
0:12
SPEAKER_00: And today we're going to open.
0:15
SPEAKER_00: We have maybe a couple of things we want to talk about, but we're going to start as you know, our conversations sometimes are a bit dynamic and spontaneous, and we know that you like that.
0:28
SPEAKER_00: And so we're going to we're going to let this run here a little bit to where it goes.
0:31
SPEAKER_00: But we're now um uh several weeks after the national event of the assassination of Charlie Kirk, turning point USA founder.
0:44
SPEAKER_00: And um as we record this, we obviously don't know what we're going to discover you know between now and when this podcast actually goes public.
0:54
SPEAKER_00: So we're not going to speculate on on um on what we don't know.
1:01
SPEAKER_00: What I would like to what fascinates, I think, us about this is here we are, you know, our our podcast is Beyond Labels, and we've pretty much applied it to food and and and uh uh uh farming procedures, things like that.
1:22
SPEAKER_00: But we'd like to broaden that idea of beyond labels to this discussion because I believe that the that the uh the psychological justification, the moral justification for this assassination came because as a society, we are cavalierly or or uh you know flippantly allowing labels to be thrown around that create unbelievable um uh uh negative equity, if you will, negative equity in social discourse and behavior.
2:14
SPEAKER_00: You know, we know that as uh biblically, as a man thinks in his heart, so is he.
2:20
SPEAKER_00: We could say as a man, as a man labels in his mind, so he does.
2:25
SPEAKER_00: And and so if we are if we allow ourselves to be taken in to um to labeling, we it mentally, uh spiritually, psychologically, it actually affects our actions, it affects our words, our discussion, our messaging, how we talk about things, and how we interact with others.
2:52
SPEAKER_00: And so the fact that the the terms, the labels, Nazi, fascist, these have been bandied about on behalf of Charlie Kirk for a long time, uh, without any, you know, just like a fact.
3:17
SPEAKER_00: A fact.
3:18
SPEAKER_00: And does anybody here think that if somebody had assassinated Hitler before, say, 1938, that we would have been spared a major world problem, um not to mention, you know, uh six million Jews that would have survived.
3:41
SPEAKER_00: Um does does anybody think now, now, you know, who wants to pull the trigger?
3:48
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
3:48
SPEAKER_00: I mean, you know, hindsight's 2020, so you you can't go there.
3:51
SPEAKER_00: But but what I'm suggesting is that when you today, knowing knowing what Nazi meant and what Hitler did, invoking that label on someone is not something you do um, you do gently.
4:10
SPEAKER_00: And and and let me be very whatever um humble and transparent here to our listeners.
4:17
SPEAKER_00: When I was a young fellow and starting into this, and and uh the and the name-calling pushback from the chemical industry uh side against me for using compost and things was developing.
4:33
SPEAKER_00: I I fought back and actually used the term Nazi about Monsanto and about some of these things.
4:43
SPEAKER_00: And a and a dear friend who was uh a board member with me in the Virginia um uh biological farming group, he was a World War II survivor.
4:53
SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna I'm gonna break down here in a minute.
4:55
SPEAKER_00: He was he had been injured in World War II and was uh a paraplegic and a farmer.
5:01
SPEAKER_00: And he he was wonderful.
5:03
SPEAKER_00: He he had figured out a way to grow strawberries and plants in raised bed gardens that he could access with his wheelchair.
5:11
SPEAKER_00: And and they had a thriving, you know, small, he and his wife, a thriving small farm uh that he was able to do.
5:19
SPEAKER_00: I mean, the guy did more from his wheelchair than most people do, you know, that that have working legs.
5:27
SPEAKER_00: And he pulled me aside one time, and he said, that's a that's a strong word.
5:39
SPEAKER_00: And you'd better reserve that carefully, and I'll never forget it.
5:47
SPEAKER_00: And he did it as a friend, and I've never um I've never forgotten it, and I've never used the term Nazi since, because it is so bad and so reprehensible that you have to almost see the devil uh um in order to use sorry in order to use that kind of term.
6:17
SPEAKER_00: And I grew up that day.
6:20
SPEAKER_00: I grew up that day, and um and and appreciated the admonition.
6:27
SPEAKER_00: And I never use it again to anyone with whom I disagreed, no matter how much I disagreed.
6:34
SPEAKER_00: And um even today, it's it I I I remember that even today when I have friends who invoke horrible labels on, for example, Bill Bill Gates.
6:50
SPEAKER_00: Bill Gates is um, you know, I disagree with him on almost everything, okay?
6:58
SPEAKER_00: Um, but I'm not ready to say that he has bad intentions.
7:06
SPEAKER_00: Many people are, and and they accuse me of being naive and all this kind of thing.
7:11
SPEAKER_00: Uh oh, don't you know how terrible, you know, he's a devil, all this stuff.
7:15
SPEAKER_00: Well, I don't know.
7:16
SPEAKER_00: I don't know, you know, and and and and I've I've been a real uh I've been in great disagreement over the whole uh narrative uh an agenda regarding hate speech because I've had conversations with people with whom I violently disagree on on policy, um, even messaging.
7:40
SPEAKER_00: And what I find is that their heart is sincere.
7:45
SPEAKER_00: You know, they're they're trying to they're trying to actually do well.
7:49
SPEAKER_00: I mean, even when our commissioner of agriculture in Virginia pulled me aside and said, and said, uh, Joel, we can't let people choose their food.
7:57
SPEAKER_00: If we do, we couldn't fill hospitals fast enough with all the sick people from getting, you know, uh dirty farmers' food.
8:05
SPEAKER_00: That that violates everything I think about choice, freedom, diversity, uh, uh, personal agency, everything.
8:16
SPEAKER_00: But you know, he takes his kids to soccer.
8:19
SPEAKER_00: He he has a wife and kids, and and and who knows, he probably goes to the Lutheran church.
8:24
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
8:25
SPEAKER_00: But but but my point is that that I have to take him at face value.
8:31
SPEAKER_00: I have to if if I label him something, then that's the first step to dehumanization and and shutting down the conversation.
8:49
SPEAKER_00: The label itself, as soon as the label is is created, it it eliminates the obscurity of subjective conversation and discovery, and instead creates a laser-focused, bullseye target that now you can you can attack, you can shallowly, you can shallowly social media, tick tock it, whatever, and you don't have to actually deal with any of the underlying issues.
9:20
SPEAKER_00: We now have the person in a box, and that's all it takes.
9:24
SPEAKER_00: And this is exactly why many years ago, um, before I ever met Cena and ever heard the term beyond labels, uh, just shows how how um synchronous I think our thinking is, Cena, that in in self-defense, literally, I I took this moniker of Christian, libertarian, environmentalist, capitalist, lunatic, farmer, which which all of those labels are incongruous.
9:57
SPEAKER_00: You know, Christians aren't libertarians.
9:59
SPEAKER_00: They they want to, you know, uh, they want to uh make moral regulations, you know, and outlaw abortion and and things.
10:07
SPEAKER_00: And and and and uh and and libertarians uh are certainly not environmentalists.
10:14
SPEAKER_00: They want to destroy the planet and then destroy Mars, you know, and and and so you got these totally incongruous uh labels that I that I created and took on as a as my own personal way to I don't know to put a stake in the sand and and say to society, be careful about labels.
10:42
SPEAKER_00: You know, I'll I'll never forget the time I finished a presentation, walked off the podium, the first guy up to me grabbed my hand, he shook it, man, you are the best socialist I've ever heard.
10:52
SPEAKER_00: Uh, can a socialist party draft you to run for you know president or something?
10:57
SPEAKER_00: And and I just laughed, you know, it was hilarious.
10:59
SPEAKER_00: Um so he, you know, he labeled me a socialist uh because he heard what he wanted to say, wanted to hear.
11:06
SPEAKER_00: Um but but the the the idea of labeling, and and I think I think that the Charlie Kirk assassination speaks to the power of the the power of a label that then gets acted out.
11:29
SPEAKER_00: It's the impetus, it's the it's the initial thought process that creates a domino change of events psychologically that allows us to um to to dismiss somebody.
11:44
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think and I love how you turn those labels around into a positive, lucrative marketing strategy for yourself because that's what you did.
11:56
SPEAKER_01: You flipped the script on them, and it's difficult to do that because labels carry so much power, and usually it has negative connotations.
12:08
SPEAKER_01: So it is uh you are a role model in that leading the way um of how we as a society can turn these things into positives and not be so devastated and negatively affected by them because I know I am when somebody starts labeling me as something negative.
12:26
SPEAKER_01: It's it's what keeps me off, uh primarily keeps me off social media.
12:31
SPEAKER_01: I I don't like it that they have, you know, well now they got trolls and bots that do it, but um, I don't like the name calling.
12:39
SPEAKER_01: Uh as you know, I've had people send me horrible emails, uh even telling me I'm trying to kill them.
12:47
SPEAKER_01: Um so so uh it it so it has this very um negative effect, even like down to the soul level for for some of us.
13:00
SPEAKER_00: And but but but but you you know, seeing that you know that um uh sorry for interrupting there, but but if somebody if somebody says uh you're trying you're trying to kill people, to me, that's a little different label because you you can then come back and say, Oh, you think I'm trying to kill people.
13:22
SPEAKER_00: So so how is that?
13:23
SPEAKER_00: You know, explain that to me.
13:25
SPEAKER_00: But as soon as as soon as they label you murderer, yeah, you know, I'm I'm not trying to I'm not trying to be real, you know, semantics here, but I think that there is a little difference between between saying, my goodness, you know, that that guy, that guy, that guy just wants to kill people.
13:45
SPEAKER_00: But as soon as you pass over and you now put on he's a murderer, then then suddenly um it it it adds whatever it it adds uh um justification for enacting the obvious the obvious uh uh result of of that of whatever that label is.
14:14
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, I think because we all know what that means.
14:17
SPEAKER_01: Like we all know what a murderer means.
14:19
SPEAKER_01: Instead of like you're trying to kill somebody, you know, you're trying to kill us, like you said.
14:23
SPEAKER_01: Well, how?
14:24
SPEAKER_01: Give me examples.
14:25
SPEAKER_01: Murderer implies you already did kill somebody.
14:28
SPEAKER_00: Yes, so ah, that's that's a good nuance.
14:31
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that that's good.
14:32
SPEAKER_00: Uh-huh.
14:32
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
14:33
SPEAKER_01: So you've you've already, you know, there's no like prove your innocence, like at all.
14:39
SPEAKER_01: You are guilty, and you don't get the opportunity to prove it.
14:43
SPEAKER_01: Um, and so and I think that just runs rampant in our culture.
14:46
SPEAKER_01: You know, on this podcast, we have talked a lot about labels in foods and also labels in diseases, and the power of that label.
14:55
SPEAKER_01: Um it does become um your identity and the power of even a doctor, for example, giving you a diagnosis of cancer and telling you you've got six months to live.
15:07
SPEAKER_01: Well, how long do you think that person's gonna live?
15:10
SPEAKER_01: Right around six months, right?
15:12
SPEAKER_01: And that's because that that has been labeled, their life has now been defined by somebody in a negative way, and we believe it.
15:20
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's called uh stage four.
15:22
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
15:25
SPEAKER_00: I mean, think think about it at you know, uh at church at you know, at prayer meeting or whatever, you know, what what the um is as soon as you hear the term stage four, well, you're gonna Yeah, you're goner.
15:39
SPEAKER_00: It's over.
15:39
SPEAKER_00: And and so those stage one, stage two, stage three.
15:42
SPEAKER_00: I mean, we've we've uh even even pars that down to uh to uh um you can do this, but you can't this, you can do this, but you can't do this.
15:51
SPEAKER_00: Each of you know, each of those kinds of um stages.
15:54
SPEAKER_01: That's right.
15:55
SPEAKER_01: And so that's like that's the nocebo effect.
15:58
SPEAKER_01: Um, but so I do want to emphasize that there's also that placebo effect, which is the positive effect.
16:05
SPEAKER_01: So if we're taking this down to like the health level, uh biological level, because this is what people can relate to, even if if they have not been censored, you know, or silenced or really name-called with some of these horrific names, everyone can relate to health.
16:21
SPEAKER_01: So I've mentioned before on this program that study that was done on leptin.
16:28
SPEAKER_01: And when people were fed the same meal twice, the their leptin level rose like two and a half times following the second meal.
16:39
SPEAKER_01: And um, the reason it did that is because the researchers lied to them and told them that they had a gene that protected them against obesity.
16:50
SPEAKER_01: And because they believed it, they had a positive effect in their biology after consuming that meal.
17:00
SPEAKER_01: So it goes to what you're saying is that um it's perception.
17:06
SPEAKER_01: So it's not just that a name is being identified and you're being labeled, it's the perception that comes along with that label.
17:14
SPEAKER_01: Like murderer is a very negative perception, you know, uh, versus if you are labeled as like um, you know, like a happy, like the happiest person.
17:24
SPEAKER_01: Like uh, I can't even think of a positive label right now because that's how culture works.
17:31
SPEAKER_00: Like most most of our label, most of our labels aren't they?
17:34
SPEAKER_00: If you start thinking about it, most of them are, you know, negative labels.
17:39
SPEAKER_01: They're negative.
17:40
SPEAKER_01: They're you're too fat, you're you know, you're too thin, you're you're you're dumb, you're or you know, or you're arrogant if you're too smart, or you know what I mean?
17:49
SPEAKER_01: Like there's all these polarizing terms, like where's the happy mediums?
17:54
SPEAKER_01: Like, can't we just be why, you know, we're always we're we're it's in that same realm that we're constantly striving.
18:01
SPEAKER_01: We're we're always one or the other, you know, never in a balance, I would say.
18:08
SPEAKER_01: And, you know, I think part of this is also lack of empathy that has been brewing and developing in our culture and potentially around the world.
18:17
SPEAKER_01: And I think part of this is stemming from lack of real connections that we have with, you know, with communities, with individuals, like in person, that a lot of connections have moved to the digital space through social media.
18:31
SPEAKER_01: So there's lack of that connectivity.
18:33
SPEAKER_00: Uh think think of the think of the number of things uh that are said electronically that would be never said if you were looking at each other face to face.
18:44
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
18:46
SPEAKER_00: It's uh it's it's unbelievable the kind of from from cryptic to nasty uh that can that can now be whatever considered socially okay um digitally versus you know versus if you if you're in person.
19:06
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, I remember being bullied in school, like in elementary school and junior high, but it was nothing near the level intensity, the frequency that many children endure today, because they had to do it at school, like face to face or through, you know, someone saying it to somebody else and then telling you, you know.
19:28
SPEAKER_01: Um, and it was more of a finite period of time.
19:31
SPEAKER_01: It was at school versus now with people on social media, particularly teenagers and having the access to the phone all the time.
19:39
SPEAKER_01: It could be a 24-hour vicious cycle of being exposed to all of this.
19:43
SPEAKER_01: And and we have, I believe, less empathy now in our culture.
19:47
SPEAKER_01: And so part of that is because we're on social media more, like we're in a digital space connecting instead of in person.
19:54
SPEAKER_01: And I think part of it is also toxins that we're being exposed to.
19:58
SPEAKER_01: Uh, a couple two quick examples.
20:01
SPEAKER_01: One is uh fluoride in the water, uh, and fluoride in your toothpaste, fluoride, you know, applied to your teeth.
20:08
SPEAKER_01: And when you go to the dentist, it's a it's an overexposure of fluoride.
20:14
SPEAKER_01: And we know that fluoride can actually lead to calcification of the pineal gland.
20:21
SPEAKER_01: That's an endocrine gland located in the center of your brain.
20:25
SPEAKER_01: It produces uh the hormone melatonin, for example, uh, which helps control your sleep cycle, your circadian rhythm.
20:32
SPEAKER_01: It helps to influence puberty and reproduction.
20:35
SPEAKER_01: I mean, think of all the problems we're having now in these areas.
20:38
SPEAKER_01: It actually helps protect against oxidative stress and inflammation, helps regulate your mood.
20:44
SPEAKER_01: Uh, think of all the depression, um, anxiety that we're seeing in the society, but also it plays a role in spiritual experiences.
20:54
SPEAKER_01: Um, in some cultures, they even call it the third the third eye, but it um helps you connect to intuition.
21:01
SPEAKER_01: Um, it helps you connect to God, to something that's bigger than yourself.
21:06
SPEAKER_01: And so as the pineal gland is getting calcified, we are seeing in the literature more reports of people feeling disconnected from self, from others, from some higher being.
21:20
SPEAKER_01: Um, Joel, we just reported on Tylenol and its association with autism.
21:26
SPEAKER_01: And I'll tell you, another thing that Tylenol or estetaminophen, to be specific, is showing to be um a negative side effect of consuming it is that it blunts the emotions.
21:40
SPEAKER_01: It has a flattening effect and it could make people less um empathetic, actually.
21:46
SPEAKER_01: There's several studies that have shown this starting in 2015.
21:51
SPEAKER_01: There was actually a study in psychological science and found that college students who took like a regular normal dose of Tylenol.
22:01
SPEAKER_01: Had a less response to both pleasant and unpleasant stimuli.
22:07
SPEAKER_01: 2016 showed a similar uh effect in another study, 2019, another study.
22:13
SPEAKER_01: So people are having a diminished capacity to feel happy for others and to feel sad for others, to feel moved by others.
22:22
SPEAKER_01: They're reporting less personal personal pleasure in response to spending time with other people and hearing their stories.
22:30
SPEAKER_01: Um, and one reason, Joel, is because that brain region that registers physical pain, it overlaps with that area that uh processes um social and emotional pain and pleasure.
22:45
SPEAKER_01: So if you think of one in four American adults take some sort of acetamin containing acetaminophen containing medication every week, and many don't know it, imagine what kind of effect is this having on our ability to empathize with others, to share in the joy.
23:05
SPEAKER_01: And we know that empathy, empathy is a big part of the social glue that bonds people together and promotes pro-social behavior.
23:16
SPEAKER_01: So, just two quick examples of in our more modern culture, how these toxins can actually create a state where we don't even feel connected.
23:27
SPEAKER_01: So that, like, for example, when somebody is assassinated, for some of some people, it doesn't really affect them.
23:35
SPEAKER_01: And so, why?
23:36
SPEAKER_01: I mean, for me, it doesn't matter what the person believed or didn't believe.
23:42
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's just the fact that somebody in America was just shot dead on a on a college campus in front of his kids.
23:53
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, just just for what he believed.
23:56
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, this wasn't self-defense.
23:59
SPEAKER_00: This this was you know, this wasn't uh trying to shield a bunch of people from from uh some you know uh terrible thing.
24:07
SPEAKER_00: It was and and I I I would I would feel I mean I feel the same thing um for any assassination, even if it's somebody with whom I would disagree.
24:19
SPEAKER_00: Uh they've they've got they've got family and friends and kids and and they have a life and um yeah the capacity to walk in the other person's shoes um keeps you from from demeaning them to just a label.
24:51
SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes, and you know, this reminds me of the woman who was recently stabbed on I think it was a train in Charlotte in Charlotte, North Carolina, yeah, who was the Ukrainian refugee.
25:03
SPEAKER_01: Imagine she went, she survived that war-torn area, came to America that's supposed to be the beacon of hope and freedom.
25:10
SPEAKER_01: And she was just killed for really no reason, minding her own business, just killed.
25:17
SPEAKER_01: She didn't even see it coming.
25:19
SPEAKER_01: And so my heart goes out to her too.
25:20
SPEAKER_01: Like I'm saying, I I don't care what your belief is, it's just wrong.
25:24
SPEAKER_01: And I think my my point is, I think it's becoming easier too for people to do these types of acts because we are losing empathy and connection with each other.
25:34
SPEAKER_01: And it it's a bigger problem than I think we're being let on, uh, because I think there's a lot of money at stake here that's trying to keep us on social media, that's trying to keep us fighting each other and kind of um preoccupied, if you will, with like a circus that's going on in front of us when we're losing some core aspects of what makes us like a strong functioning humanity.
26:03
SPEAKER_01: You know, like can we just have common courtesy towards each other is what is what I'm saying.
26:09
SPEAKER_01: Because it no matter who it is, it's just it's just not okay.
26:14
SPEAKER_01: Um and I think we're becoming too numb yeah when these things happen.
26:20
SPEAKER_00: And and I and I think this is not and this is not a partisan thing I'm describing.
26:26
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I cringe at Trump's name calling.
26:30
SPEAKER_00: Now, I mean he he's he's dramatic and he's he's doing his theatrics and all this stuff, but I I I'm chagrined.
26:36
SPEAKER_00: I um you know I I I can admit here, and this is you know, that that I'm that I prefer him in there than Kamala.
26:45
SPEAKER_00: I'm glad he won.
26:46
SPEAKER_00: But but I I the guy's a bull in a china shop.
26:50
SPEAKER_00: I mean, you don't have to sit here and invent um names for people, even if it's um, you know, little rocket man for Kim Jong-un, you know, at North Korea.
27:03
SPEAKER_00: I don't like, you know, I'm not a lover of Kim Jong-un in North Korea.
27:06
SPEAKER_00: I I think the guy's a you know, he he's not good for the country.
27:11
SPEAKER_00: Uh not good, he wouldn't be good for anybody anywhere.
27:13
SPEAKER_00: I mean, the whole uh uh system, but but it doesn't move dialogue forward uh and it I I think I think what it does is it it makes you appear either like a bully or like or shallow, shallow in your thinking when you have to resort to uh to that it's kind of like I heard back when I was a teen, long time ago, we had we had um there was a there was a a guy who who went around the country um talking to teenagers.
27:54
SPEAKER_00: So this is in the 60s, and uh he was talking one time about uh why people swear, you know, uh curse.
28:03
SPEAKER_00: And he said um he said, well, I guess it's just because they don't have a big enough vocabulary.
28:09
SPEAKER_00: And he he was being he he he he he talked to teenagers about about life and great, but he was he was hilarious, you know, uh uh just entertainer, hilarious, but but you know, was was trying to get get you to think about things.
28:23
SPEAKER_00: And and um and it was it was an interesting idea that when you run out of when you don't have a big enough um lexicon in your own because you're you're struggling, then the easy thing to do is just to slip into this cursing thing, this this swearing thing, instead of trying to um invent a more whatever, a more colorful adjective or a more colorful adverb.
28:52
SPEAKER_00: Um, come on, you know, uh uh don't just make it simple.
28:56
SPEAKER_00: And and I and I think that that this moving into just a um a labeling concept, a lot of times it's just it's just easy.
29:10
SPEAKER_00: It's just it's it's just easier to just slip into that than um using a longer descriptive a longer descriptive term that maintains somebody else's humanity.
29:25
SPEAKER_00: And so this is not this is not just left and right, whether you're libertarian, socialist, communist, republican, democrat, uh, we can all learn something from this.
29:42
SPEAKER_00: And if it's to scale the rhetoric and scale the labeling down.
29:48
SPEAKER_01: I think a big I have two questions for you.
29:50
SPEAKER_01: I think emotions really drive name-calling in a lot of instances.
29:57
SPEAKER_01: So when you're talking about why are people using curse words or you know, just resorting to now this person's a murderer or whatever.
30:05
SPEAKER_01: Uh, those inflammatory um words and meanings, I I oftentimes think that it's because people become very emotionally involved and invested in the conversations and they get riled up, and logic then it tends to take a back seat to the more emotional outbursts.
30:27
SPEAKER_01: You know, we see this in children when they throw tantrums and stuff.
30:30
SPEAKER_01: And sometimes you know, kill children will hit because they can't communicate, you know.
30:35
SPEAKER_01: So they'll do it to try to get the attention.
30:37
SPEAKER_01: They're trying to get that emotion, the emotion that has built up out because they're frustrated because they can't communicate.
30:44
SPEAKER_01: Um, and so I think there's a lot of similarity here, at least I see it when I see people kind of uh having more of a pronounced response in these discussions where they might just child, it's childish.
31:01
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's it's because you're not you're not regulating your own emotions.
31:05
SPEAKER_01: And this is not taught in in our culture.
31:09
SPEAKER_01: We're not really taught how to regulate things.
31:11
SPEAKER_01: We're taught to basically sit down, shut up, and be silenced, like as we're kids, you know, at least a lot of us were, and not how to work through these things.
31:19
SPEAKER_01: And we're taught um to be winners.
31:23
SPEAKER_01: So you must win the argument, right?
31:25
SPEAKER_01: At all costs, win at all costs.
31:27
SPEAKER_01: Kind of like the ends, the end justifies the means.
31:30
SPEAKER_01: And so we just want that last word, right?
31:32
SPEAKER_01: We want to be the ones that's seen as right because again, it comes back to now you have that external validation that you are good enough.
31:40
SPEAKER_01: So there's you can see the dots I'm connecting here, that this whole thing of like we we all want to feel good and loved and accepted.
31:47
SPEAKER_01: And so we will sacrifice others, even on a subconscious level, just to make ourselves feel connected and loved, because we're longing for that so desperately.
31:59
SPEAKER_01: So I think that's part of it, you know, to um when when somebody says something negative, I say this to my kids and also to myself.
32:07
SPEAKER_01: If somebody's bullying you or somebody's calling you names or whatnot, have compassion and empathy for that person and try to really understand why they're doing it because it's not about you, it's actually about the other person.
32:19
SPEAKER_01: In these cases, it became about the girl on the train or Charlie Kirk because they violated their space in the deepest way that you possibly can by taking their lives because of how they felt about themselves.
32:33
SPEAKER_01: So I think number one, it's you know, learning how to become more emotionally intelligent as individuals and teaching our children that, our grandchildren that, um, so we can cause that shift.
32:46
SPEAKER_01: Uh on a more personal note, I'm curious to know since you actually, you know, you've been undergone a lot of name calling, you've been canceled.
32:56
SPEAKER_01: Um and you tore a lot.
32:59
SPEAKER_01: You speak in the public arena a lot.
33:04
SPEAKER_01: When you heard about this, the assassination, were you at all afraid to like continue going and doing all these public engagements?
33:14
SPEAKER_00: No, no, not at all.
33:15
SPEAKER_00: I I've never it never even crossed my mind.
33:18
SPEAKER_00: Um uh I I do I do what I do because it's right.
33:23
SPEAKER_00: And um, if I get taken down for that, then so be it.
33:28
SPEAKER_00: Uh I'm I'm I'm I'm a very I'm very much uh uh you know, here I am, here's my ministry, and here's what I do.
33:37
SPEAKER_00: Um let me uh I do want to add one element.
33:41
SPEAKER_00: It's a great, great um, I think bringing that emotional aspect because we have not we have not learned um uh how to how to how to discourse as gentlemen and ladies, I think, in our culture.
34:05
SPEAKER_00: And I am this is one of the reasons I'm uh so thankful for my years of interscholastic and intercollegiate debate.
34:14
SPEAKER_00: Um this was this is formal, this is formal debate.
34:17
SPEAKER_00: I did policy debate uh five years in high school, four years in college, and I got a room full of trophies up here from those tournaments.
34:26
SPEAKER_00: But in these debate tournaments, when we when we got into college, uh the way a tournament would work, and I debated all through the Southwest, uh or Southeast, um we go to these tournaments, and a tournament was six rounds for those who aren't aren't um don't know about this.
34:46
SPEAKER_00: So you have a topic, you know, resolve that something.
34:51
SPEAKER_00: Um you know it was normally that the federal government should, it was normally some poly this is called policy debate, you know, uh should recognize whatever um you know uh Puerto Rico as a state or um should uh do more with consumer product safety or um you know change the insurance company or whatever.
35:15
SPEAKER_00: There's some some sort of policy decision.
35:17
SPEAKER_00: And um and in a tournament, we would debate there would be six six preliminary rounds, and then you'd break to, you know, depending on how big the tournament was, um, some were big enough you broke to octafinals and then some and then quarterfinals, then semifinals, and finals.
35:34
SPEAKER_00: That was that was fun, you know, when you when you went through all those final rounds.
35:38
SPEAKER_00: But um in the in the preliminaries, it was always three sides affirmative, three sides negative.
35:48
SPEAKER_00: And so it's called switch side.
35:51
SPEAKER_00: And so we we go in and one round we debate affirmative, one round we debate negative, next round we debate affirmative, negative.
35:59
SPEAKER_00: And then if you met, if you met a team in elimination rounds that you'd already debated, then you you took the other side.
36:07
SPEAKER_00: If you if you had debated them affirmative and they were negative, then you, you know, they they took the affirmative and you took the negative on on and if you hadn't met them in preliminary rounds, you flipped a coin to see you know which which side you'd we you'd take.
36:22
SPEAKER_00: My point of all this is not to drill into all the you know the um minutia of debate tournaments, but I I will forever appreciate that experience of debating both sides of a of a policy issue.
36:41
SPEAKER_00: Uh for real, for real.
36:43
SPEAKER_00: This wasn't, we weren't just playing games.
36:45
SPEAKER_00: I mean, you you had to, well, yeah, we were playing games, but but uh you know, you you you went in, you know, when you if you were affirmative, I mean you had to believe, you know, believe it.
36:57
SPEAKER_00: And if when you went to negative, you had to believe it.
37:00
SPEAKER_00: I mean, you could you you never you could never win if you just took a a flippant attitude toward, well, you know, okay, I'm negative now.
37:07
SPEAKER_00: No, no, no, no.
37:08
SPEAKER_00: You had to, you had to adjust your head, your thinking, everything.
37:12
SPEAKER_00: Okay, this time I'm negative on this.
37:15
SPEAKER_00: And the next round, no, I'm affirmative on this because debate was hard enough if you just went if you just went in, you know, flippantly and cavalierly and and whatever, uh, you'd never win.
37:26
SPEAKER_00: And so what that really taught for me was that there are two sides of a lot of issues.
37:34
SPEAKER_00: And uh, or at least there are there are multiple ways to look at an issue.
37:41
SPEAKER_00: And uh and that's why um that's why I'm I'm I'm loath to ever assume that someone is evil intended, no matter what they do.
38:01
SPEAKER_00: Even the assassin of Charlie Kirk.
38:06
SPEAKER_00: I mean, some people will will think that's crazy to say he was not evil intended.
38:13
SPEAKER_00: He this is why the label is so important, Cena, because he was he was when when you start looking at all of his you know texts and his emails and the stuff, he was immersed, he was immersed in a world that labeled Charlie a Nazi and a fascist.
38:34
SPEAKER_00: And as he connected the dots of Nazi and Fascist, he in his heart of hearts thought, well, goodness, if this is a chance to get rid of Hitler before he gets any more.
38:54
SPEAKER_00: I mean, turning point USA is huge.
38:56
SPEAKER_00: They're on college campuses all over the world.
38:59
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I mean, uh uh J.D.
39:01
SPEAKER_00: Vance says that if it weren't for Charlie, uh they would have they would not have gotten elected.
39:07
SPEAKER_00: Uh and since the assassination, I've heard numerous pretty politically savvy people say, I mean, Charlie was only 31 years old.
39:15
SPEAKER_00: Think about that.
39:16
SPEAKER_00: You know, he started, he started a turning point when he was like, what, 18, 19?
39:19
SPEAKER_00: I mean, the kid was he he was he was a savant, you know, he he remembered everything, he read everything.
39:26
SPEAKER_00: And uh he was only 31.
39:28
SPEAKER_00: And a lot of people believe that within, if he had kept on the trajectory he was on, that within 20 years he would have been running for president.
39:37
SPEAKER_00: I mean, that that's how charismatic he was.
39:40
SPEAKER_00: All right.
39:40
SPEAKER_00: So, so if I'm if I'm immersed and and just uh um feeding, feeding, you know, uh emotionally and and psychologically on this on this narrative that here's here's an up-and-coming Hitler in front of me, um let's let's take him out before he gets any more power.
40:04
SPEAKER_00: And this this is this is the power of labels, and why I want to admonish all of us, including me, all right, including me, to let's let's rise above this.
40:14
SPEAKER_00: Let's get above this.
40:16
SPEAKER_00: And um, and if the other sides, you know, name-calling, don't don't go down in the in the walla pit with them.
40:26
SPEAKER_00: Um let them let them be name-calling and let us be above that and um and be better than that.
40:35
SPEAKER_00: And that's that's my story, and I'm sticking to it.
40:38
SPEAKER_00: Um that's where I am.
40:41
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I'm I'm I'm I'm really um I'm chagrined at all that narrative around it and the um and and the the name calling the labels.
40:55
SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, I want to say, you know, left cut it out, right cut it out, Trump cut it out, um, you know, uh the View cut it out, or you know, whoever uh you know, stop enough enough already, and let's and let's engage in respectful conversation.
41:12
SPEAKER_00: And let's assume, let's assume that the other side, no matter how much you disagree with them, let's assume that the other side is trying to do what they think is right.
41:25
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
41:26
SPEAKER_00: Let's assume that.
41:28
SPEAKER_00: And if we all assume that, we're gonna have some good, we're gonna have some good conversations.
41:34
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
41:35
SPEAKER_01: You know, this reminds me of uh when I was working for a news organization recently, uh, I was assigned to that story about pharmaceutical crops, uh, which we talked about on this podcast already.
41:50
SPEAKER_01: But I remember because they wanted me to get both sides of the story.
41:55
SPEAKER_01: Like I had to write the story as a neutral party.
41:58
SPEAKER_01: So it's like what you're talking about, trying to be open and like hear both sides kind of get in their shoes.
42:05
SPEAKER_01: And I remember thinking, my goodness, this is gonna be so hard because I'm totally against genetically engineered crops and um, you know, and particularly crops that are growing medications and vaccines in them.
42:19
SPEAKER_01: So I had two interviews with people who were opposed to pharma crops and two interviews with people who were in favor of them.
42:26
SPEAKER_01: And in fact, one of them was the president and owner of the top of pharmaceutical crop producing company.
42:37
SPEAKER_01: So, like the biggest person, biggest name in the field you can talk to, okay?
42:42
SPEAKER_01: And each one was an hour.
42:44
SPEAKER_01: Uh, you know, each individual interview was an hour.
42:48
SPEAKER_01: And I tell you, I kid you not, Joel, because I already decided ahead of time that I was not going to engage my emotions, and I was gonna just really listen, you know, like I think a good leader is one who really listens, and so I was really just gonna listen and try to have empathy for them.
43:10
SPEAKER_01: And that conversation with that top dog, right?
43:14
SPEAKER_01: One of the best conversations I've ever had with somebody in the food and health space.
43:20
SPEAKER_01: We it was just there was no tension between us, and because of that, and I mean, clearly we are on different sides of the aisle, but because there was no tension between that, I learned so much from him about the whole process, not me how it came about.
43:39
SPEAKER_01: I learned their motives, and like you said, their his intention is noble of what he is trying to do.
43:46
SPEAKER_01: And I could applaud his because for the perception the for the worldview he has, he is doing the most noble thing he could think of to do and sacrificing a lot to get to that point.
43:58
SPEAKER_01: And not only that, as he was trying.
44:00
SPEAKER_01: To tell me because I was like, why we already have vaccines, you know, like injectables.
44:06
SPEAKER_01: Why the need to force our plants to make vaccines for us to consume?
44:12
SPEAKER_01: Like, why do we need these edible vaccines?
44:14
SPEAKER_01: And I could you not, he said to me, you know, the vast majority of the immune system is in the gastrointestinal tract.
44:22
SPEAKER_01: So why are we taking something and injecting it into the body, which is not natural, right?
44:28
SPEAKER_01: It's not a natural thing to start injecting stuff into the body, and you bypass the largest uh percentage-wise a portion of your immune system.
44:38
SPEAKER_01: So why not consume it?
44:40
SPEAKER_01: More natural.
44:41
SPEAKER_01: And and I was like, that's good.
44:45
SPEAKER_00: Isn't that just hilarious to have somebody uh telling you how natural how natural GMO uh lettuce lettuce leaves with um with vaccine in them is all oh man yeah yeah good point, right?
45:03
SPEAKER_00: But but but but you you but you but you could part you could part with your you could part with your um your your psyche intact and and and and and knowing that you hadn't uh uh d demeaned him and at the same time you had risen to the occasion to to to to push yourself to listen.
45:33
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
45:34
SPEAKER_00: Powerful, powerful thing.
45:35
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it was so fruitful, and it's hard to do that in our culture today because we have such a such a gotcha culture.
45:42
SPEAKER_01: You've got to get that one quote because people are only gonna spend 15 seconds reading that article or or or 15 seconds looking at that post or at that video.
45:51
SPEAKER_01: So you have to have something that sensationalized gotcha moment.
45:54
SPEAKER_00: It's the shock value.
45:56
SPEAKER_01: It's the shock value of it, you know.
45:58
SPEAKER_01: And so I that interview, that relationship I built with him could have gone completely different if I'd entered it trying to get like that shock value.
46:07
SPEAKER_01: But I honestly enter that conversation trying to understand where he's coming from.
46:11
SPEAKER_01: And honestly, I walked away having respect for him.
46:16
SPEAKER_01: I was like, he's doing what he what he thinks is noble.
46:19
SPEAKER_01: It makes sense.
46:20
SPEAKER_01: I can follow his logic behind what he's doing.
46:22
SPEAKER_01: We just disagree on a principle level, and that's okay.
46:27
SPEAKER_01: Like, I don't need to be, you know, in lockstep with everybody else.
46:31
SPEAKER_01: It's okay that they disagree.
46:33
SPEAKER_01: And he had, you can see during the conversation his defenses starting to melt away, which because I wasn't attacking him, I wasn't looking for that gotcha moment.
46:44
SPEAKER_01: And so that opened up the doors for us to hear each other and have a wonderful conversation.
46:49
SPEAKER_01: It taught me so much in that one hour of that interview that I was like, this is how all of my relationships are going to be from now on.
46:59
SPEAKER_01: Like, I want to hear everyone's opinion because you know what, it broadens my perspective as well.
47:04
SPEAKER_01: And I'm totally okay saying, you know, I got that wrong.
47:07
SPEAKER_01: I mean, no, I did not get pharmacrops wrong.
47:09
SPEAKER_00: Like no, I'm I'm I'm totally with you.
47:13
SPEAKER_00: And and and and getting and getting your MMR vaccine out of a lettuce leaf is certainly not natural.
47:19
SPEAKER_00: Uh, we we could have that discussion, but but um but you don't have to say he's a demon, you know, to to do that.
47:27
SPEAKER_00: So so many years ago, um, I was asked by one of our Virginia delegates to go and spend the day with him in Richmond lobbying.
47:35
SPEAKER_00: He he had put in um a kind of a cottage food bill to let um you know individual uh free market happen you know between producer and consumer.
47:47
SPEAKER_00: He had a little farm and he'd had trouble selling his beef.
47:50
SPEAKER_00: And uh so anyway, he called me and asked me to spend the day with him in Richmond.
47:54
SPEAKER_00: Well, you know, um I'm generally a liability in Richmond, not an asset.
48:00
SPEAKER_00: And so to be considered an asset by a sitting delegate was really cool.
48:04
SPEAKER_00: So I went and spent the day with him, and we went, you know, uh uh place to place.
48:08
SPEAKER_00: It was it was fun.
48:08
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I've done lobby work before, but to actually go with a delegate, it was really cool.
48:13
SPEAKER_00: You know, the deferential treatment that the other delegates gave him, you know, you you you can get in the where you can't get in if you're just you know some outside person.
48:24
SPEAKER_00: And um anyway, spent the whole day.
48:26
SPEAKER_00: So five o'clock, end of the day, we go to we get to his office, and um I said to him, I said, man, Albert, if we if we could have had 30 minutes with each of those people instead of just the one minute or two minutes that they gave us, if we could have had 30 minutes, I think that we'd have every single one of them on our side.
48:53
SPEAKER_00: And without any hesitation or whatever, he just leaned forward.
48:58
SPEAKER_00: He said, Joel, he said, that's not the way this building works, the General Assembly building.
49:03
SPEAKER_00: He said, This building works, it's all about how fast can I figure out which side I'm on and go on to the next thing.
49:14
SPEAKER_00: It's not about solving problems, it's not about being right, it's about choosing sides as quickly as possible and going on to the next thing.
49:24
SPEAKER_00: And I thought, you know, that's really sad, isn't it?
49:27
SPEAKER_00: It's it's sad that it's all about choosing the side.
49:34
SPEAKER_00: Now that I've chosen my side, okay, who's next next, you know, next person, next person, next person.
49:40
SPEAKER_00: And that's a lot like labeling.
49:42
SPEAKER_00: It's it's a lot like this this choosing a side in labeling, okay, now I know who that is, and I've got them labeled, now move on to the next thing.
49:51
SPEAKER_00: And and um it it's it's like a cop out.
49:55
SPEAKER_00: It's it's like a cop out of doing the hard work of finding out what makes a person tick.
50:03
SPEAKER_00: What what makes a person do and say and be who and what they are.
50:09
SPEAKER_00: And um, so uh that that that was a that was a powerful, a very powerful experience that I'll never I'll never forget.
50:16
SPEAKER_00: And I'll never forget him just saying as matter-of-factly as possible, as you can imagine, well, that's just not the way this building works.
50:26
SPEAKER_00: And it really uh um it's made me never want to enter politics because I just can't stand, I can't stand to spend time with somebody who doesn't care, who does, who isn't willing to invest.
50:42
SPEAKER_00: I'm willing to invest time in them to figure out why they think like they do.
50:47
SPEAKER_00: And if they're not willing to reciprocate to me to find out why I think like I do, I'm sorry, I don't have time for that.
50:55
SPEAKER_00: I got I got I got a vision, mission, I got things to do.
50:59
SPEAKER_00: I don't have time to spend with someone who is so inconsiderate or or proud or arrogant or whatever that they can't that they can't invest in finding out what what makes me tick.
51:18
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think, well, first of all, that's very sad that that's how the government is run, but not surprising.
51:25
SPEAKER_01: I mean, the bills are so long for them to have to read and go through that it's information overload.
51:30
SPEAKER_01: And that's how that's how things get slipped into the bills and they don't even know it was there when they pass it.
51:36
SPEAKER_01: But I I think there's a theme here of information overload, because I think that it's not just you know, our congressmen, it's uh and the regulators, you know, like looking through all this material and whatnot, the marketers uh that the manufacturers send to them.
51:52
SPEAKER_01: But it's also with just us, like the people.
51:56
SPEAKER_01: We have this state now, this modern culture of information overload because we've got the news cycle, you know, like flip on your TV at any time you get all this input, like you know, news, drug ads, like all this stuff, input, and then social media.
52:12
SPEAKER_01: There's tons of input.
52:14
SPEAKER_01: And we're not designed to receive all of that type of input, right?
52:20
SPEAKER_01: Like, I mean, ancients didn't have that, they didn't know what was going on in different countries and didn't have people like uh exposing them, especially to so much negative input all the time.
52:33
SPEAKER_01: And so it is this culture, uh, like we talked about of you know, click, it's a headline culture.
52:40
SPEAKER_01: It and so they are going to sum you up in in just you know, one or two phrases uh or words.
52:47
SPEAKER_01: And and because they don't have all this time, because we're a busy culture now, we don't have time and we're overwhelmed, saturation of information.
52:57
SPEAKER_01: So they're oftentimes just going to resort to what someone who they trust or believe in is saying about somebody else.
53:04
SPEAKER_01: And so it just gets spread like that, like wildfires.
53:07
SPEAKER_01: And so I think not only is it not some so there's another category, it's not just people being like arrogant or you know, to not get to know you, they're simply overwhelmed and oversaturated with stuff.
53:21
SPEAKER_01: So you become just a label to them and they move on, right?
53:25
SPEAKER_00: You know, right, which which is which also why we're not having more connections to which which is which is why we we need to realize that uh I mean I just speak for myself, I need to realize that's my temptation too.
53:42
SPEAKER_00: And and so I need to do everything possible to mitigate um those cultural influences, that frenzied frenetic uh thing, uh to to to to to take some time and to sit down with somebody and actually, you know, uh uh talk with them.
54:06
SPEAKER_00: Uh this is this is uh this becomes a this becomes a personal improvement campaign, you know, to um to be able to be more human myself and with others.
54:18
SPEAKER_00: And I don't I don't do it all the time because boy, I I you know it's so easy to slip into that.
54:23
SPEAKER_00: Well, that's just you know, that's just a a kook, you know.
54:28
SPEAKER_00: It's just so easy to slip into that.
54:31
SPEAKER_00: And and it actually is it's um it's laziness.
54:36
SPEAKER_00: It's laziness on our part, I think, to um you know, to slip into that.
54:43
SPEAKER_00: Well, this has been uh this has been quite the discussion, and uh I'm not I'm not sure we've solved everything, but I do think we put our fingers on on some issues that can help us all be better because we've articulated them.
55:01
SPEAKER_00: And we've challenged, I think, I know it's challenged to me, it's challenged hopefully all of our listeners to let's let's step up here and be better, you know, better people.
55:12
SPEAKER_00: And and and I think it's fair when we get into these situations where the name calling is just being bandied about, it's okay to call them out.
55:21
SPEAKER_00: It's okay.
55:22
SPEAKER_00: Wait, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute.
55:24
SPEAKER_00: Let's stop the name calling.
55:26
SPEAKER_00: Let's have, you know, just like me at the beginning of the program when I talked about this dear uh friend who was old enough to be my grandfather pulling me aside and saying, that's not very wise.
55:40
SPEAKER_00: That's not that's not good.
55:41
SPEAKER_00: And uh it changed me for life, and I've never I've never used it since.
55:45
SPEAKER_00: And um, and I think I think we can all learn from that level of compassion and, as you said, empathy uh for others.
55:55
SPEAKER_00: Maybe, maybe the right question here today is has this made you think about some of the titles you've given to people?
56:05
SPEAKER_00: Uh have we have we have we shave we opened a door of self-reflection here that is um is profound in your life?
56:15
SPEAKER_00: If so, let us know if it if we've actually um touched you on a topic that is that is so uh important for societal and congenial you know dialogue as we as we become more and more bifurcated.
56:36
SPEAKER_00: Uh have we touched on an element here that's been helpful or challenging for you today?
56:41
SPEAKER_01: I love that.
56:42
SPEAKER_01: And it could be not just name-calling somebody out there like in the social media digital space, but it could be labeling your partner or like your your spouse or your parents or your children, the labels we pass down on to them without really knowing it, you know.
57:00
SPEAKER_01: So it's uh I want to reiterate this isn't about shaming people, this is about just let's self-reflect for a moment and think of have we partaken in unknowingly placing labels on ourselves or on other people?
57:17
SPEAKER_01: And maybe it's something that now we decide we might not want to do.
57:22
SPEAKER_00: Right.
57:24
SPEAKER_00: Great.
57:25
SPEAKER_00: Well, thank you all for joining us on another Beyond Labels podcast.
57:30
SPEAKER_00: And we look forward to visiting with you again next week.