Latest / New Thinking Allowed Audio Podcast / Cultivating Ecstasy with Bill Pfeiffer (4K Reboot)

Transcript

Cultivating Ecstasy with Bill Pfeiffer (4K Reboot) · New Thinking Allowed Audio Podcast

• 0:00
  I ended up sleeping uh in in [snorts] a
• 0:04
  in a small uh a small little Siberian
• 0:09
  house uh in separate beds with her and
• 0:13
  her si and her and her sister and
• 0:17
  um at 5 in the morning she woke me up
• 0:23
  with her mind. She was sleeping. I felt
• 0:27
  her talk to me in my dreams and then
• 0:30
  wake me up and and I have never
• 0:34
  experienced anything like this before
• 0:36
  after she instructed me to go outside
• 0:40
  and I would see the remainder my
• 0:44
  existing and the remainder of my spirit
• 0:47
  guides [snorts] in kind of in living
• 0:50
  color. Um, and that's exactly what I
• 0:55
  what happened. It was a c it was the
• 0:58
  understatement is revoly and exalting.
• 1:02
  >> Keep watching to learn more. New
• 1:05
  thinking aloud is presented by the
• 1:07
  California Institute for Human Science,
• 1:10
  a fully accredited university offering
• 1:13
  distant learning graduate degrees that
• 1:15
  focus on mind, body, and spirit. the
• 1:18
  topics that we cover here. We are
• 1:21
  particularly excited to announce new
• 1:23
  degrees emphasizing parasychology and
• 1:26
  the paranormal. Visit their website at
• 1:30
  cihs.edu.
• 1:33
  The new thinking aloud magazine issue 10
• 1:36
  on UFOs and UAP is now ready for free
• 1:40
  download. And you can also order
• 1:42
  beautiful printed copies. Go to
• 1:44
  newthinkingaloud.org.
• 1:48
  Book four in the new thinking aloud
• 1:50
  dialogue series is Charles T. Tart, 70
• 1:54
  years of exploring consciousness and
• 1:58
  parasychology.
• 1:59
  Now available on Amazon.
• 2:13
  [music]
• 2:16
  Thinking Aloud.
• 2:19
  Conversations on the leading edge of
• 2:21
  knowledge and discovery with
• 2:23
  psychologist [music]
• 2:25
  Jeffrey Michionlo.
• 2:29
  [music]
• 2:32
  Hello and welcome. I'm Jeffrey
• 2:34
  Michionlo. Today we'll be exploring
• 2:37
  possibilities for an ecstatic culture.
• 2:40
  My guest is Bill Feifer. He is the
• 2:43
  author of Wild Earth, Wild Soul, a
• 2:47
  manual for ecstatic culture. For many
• 2:50
  years, he has been leading Wild Nature
• 2:53
  Intensives. And now, I'll switch over to
• 2:57
  the internet interview.
• 3:00
  Welcome, Bill. It's a pleasure to be
• 3:02
  with you today.
• 3:04
  >> Yeah, I'm I'm really glad to be here as
• 3:06
  well, Jeffrey.
• 3:07
  I was very interested in reading your
• 3:10
  book that you referenced my old friend
• 3:13
  the late Terrence McKenna who talked
• 3:16
  about what he called the archaic revival
• 3:19
  and it struck me that although I don't
• 3:23
  see anywhere that you're advocating the
• 3:25
  use of psychedelic drugs that your work
• 3:29
  is very much in the spirit of Terren's
• 3:32
  work.
• 3:33
  >> Very much so. He's one of my heroes. Uh
• 3:37
  I met him uh once uh and he he at the
• 3:41
  end of his lecture we actually met
• 3:43
  outside the bathroom and he said to me,
• 3:45
  "It's all about love, Bill." And I never
• 3:48
  forgot that because as uh as vast and as
• 3:54
  sophisticated as an intellectual,
• 3:57
  uh you know, he just he got right down
• 4:00
  to it in a very very human way and I I
• 4:03
  appreciate him for that. Um, as far as
• 4:07
  the archaic revol revival goes and for
• 4:10
  that matter psychedelics,
• 4:12
  um, you know, you wouldn't be having me
• 4:15
  on the show if you didn't realize that,
• 4:19
  uh, the human species is hopefully in
• 4:22
  the midst of a huge phase change, a a a
• 4:26
  paradigm shift of enormous proportions,
• 4:29
  but it's not going to happen if we don't
• 4:31
  actually intend it. And so so much of my
• 4:36
  work is about remembering that
• 4:40
  kind of fundamental original wisdom that
• 4:44
  we have in our DNA and and using
• 4:46
  whatever [laughter]
• 4:48
  whatever nonviolent means are necessary
• 4:52
  to [snorts] achieve that. And yeah, I
• 4:54
  I'm very upfront about it. I think the I
• 4:57
  think magic mushrooms, for example, are
• 5:00
  very very potent and if they're used
• 5:02
  properly and ceremonially,
• 5:05
  um I like groups. I don't do it like
• 5:09
  Terrence does it all by myself at a room
• 5:11
  somewhere. I just think it's uh it it's
• 5:14
  a necessary tool these days.
• 5:18
  You mentioned the use of uh ceremony and
• 5:20
  I know that you have personally been
• 5:23
  involved in working with indigenous
• 5:25
  people all over the world and
• 5:28
  participating in their ceremonies and
• 5:30
  that an important part for you of
• 5:34
  building an ecstatic culture is drawing
• 5:38
  upon the wisdom of these cultures.
• 5:41
  There's this
• 5:43
  original wisdom that is very much
• 5:48
  um about our intrinsic energetic
• 5:53
  oneness with nature. And that that sort
• 5:57
  of sounds abstract and and could be
• 6:01
  could be seen as kind of poppy copyccock
• 6:04
  or fanciful thinking, but the the proof
• 6:07
  is in the pudding. And whenever we
• 6:09
  experience a uh uh a a subject object
• 6:14
  dissolution,
• 6:16
  we understand this kind of fundamental
• 6:20
  truth of our existence. So, so whenever
• 6:24
  I'm with native people, I mean, that are
• 6:27
  practicing traditionally or they're in
• 6:29
  ceremony,
• 6:31
  what what I sense is that they're
• 6:34
  they're teaching about not only this
• 6:39
  oneness with the universe, but also our
• 6:43
  reciprocal relational
• 6:46
  uh
• 6:49
  what would you call it? soup that we're
• 6:51
  into that we're we're involved with all
• 6:54
  our relations. And you know, just let me
• 6:57
  add on there, which is for me what's so
• 7:01
  growing more and more alive in me daily
• 7:04
  is this idea that so-called out there is
• 7:09
  family. And that we're in this beautiful
• 7:13
  conversation with the plants and the
• 7:16
  animals and the minerals and the stars.
• 7:19
  And it's that conversation that just
• 7:22
  brings so much life and beauty into our
• 7:25
  our sort of dead universe that we've
• 7:28
  been we've been brought up we've been
• 7:30
  brought up in.
• 7:32
  >> Well, you referred to the phrase all our
• 7:35
  relations and I know that amongst the
• 7:38
  Lakota Sue in particular, you hear that
• 7:41
  expression used all the time.
• 7:44
  >> Yeah. Makrias and all our relations, all
• 7:48
  my relations. Um, yeah. I mean, it's uh
• 7:55
  the more we're in this
• 7:58
  reciprocal, respectful,
• 8:02
  communicative, and and I would say
• 8:04
  fundamentally loving relationship with
• 8:08
  the wind and the stars and the birds,
• 8:12
  you know, and on and on and on. and is
• 8:14
  for that matter inanimate so-called
• 8:16
  inanimate objects. Uh we're just in a
• 8:20
  whole new ball game, Jeff. Like it's
• 8:22
  it's just it's just it's a it's it is
• 8:26
  the I like to see it as it's
• 8:32
  the the par it's the new paradigm. But
• 8:36
  but then western civ has kind of added
• 8:40
  something very beautiful into the mix
• 8:43
  and that you know that basically t take
• 8:45
  the best of western civilization get rid
• 8:48
  [snorts] of get rid of the colonial crap
• 8:51
  and we're in we're just in such a juicy
• 8:54
  new like
• 8:56
  spiral. We're in a new uh a new part of
• 9:01
  of the evolutionary spiral and I I'm so
• 9:04
  excited about that.
• 9:06
  >> Well, civilization
• 9:08
  itself has lots of problems. Now,
• 9:10
  colonialism that you've mentioned is
• 9:13
  certainly one of them, but that's not
• 9:14
  where our problems end.
• 9:18
  [laughter] It seems, you know, the
• 9:21
  modern civilization has brought us to
• 9:23
  the brink of destruction. I think you're
• 9:26
  offering an antidote to that. However,
• 9:29
  you make a point of saying we can't
• 9:32
  force this ecstatic culture on people at
• 9:35
  all. It can't be a top- down sort of
• 9:38
  imposition on people. It has to spring
• 9:41
  naturally. And is it happening? That's
• 9:45
  absolutely right. It's a it's a
• 9:48
  self-discovery pro process and it's a um
• 9:53
  it's a community process. I believe it's
• 9:56
  a local process. It's absolutely not top
• 10:00
  down. Uh is it possible? Sure. Um and
• 10:05
  all sorts of crazy stuff is is is
• 10:08
  possible. I mean, if if fish can walk on
• 10:11
  the water and dinosaurs can end up
• 10:14
  learning how to fly, uh you know, all
• 10:17
  sorts of things on planet Earth are are
• 10:20
  are are possible. So, you know, we we'll
• 10:25
  we'll we'll see or our our uh our
• 10:29
  descendants will see. Uh but I'll just,
• 10:32
  you know, I like I I get I get very
• 10:34
  inspired by these questions. And I think
• 10:37
  it's, you know, [snorts] it's about
• 10:38
  being a good ancestor and giving it up
• 10:41
  to the highest. And when we feel into
• 10:44
  some inspired truth like the archaic
• 10:48
  revival, um we give it all we've got.
• 10:52
  Well, all we've got, of course, we don't
• 10:54
  even know the the limits of uh what is
• 10:57
  possible humanly, but as I look out on
• 11:00
  the universe, I see, you know, there are
• 11:04
  stars that are exploding. There are
• 11:06
  galaxies that are colliding. There are
• 11:08
  probably
• 11:10
  billions of planets that have
• 11:14
  civilizations such such as ours, and not
• 11:17
  all of them are going to survive. It
• 11:19
  seems to me that the possibility for
• 11:22
  intelligent life forms to develop and
• 11:25
  cultivate a civilization and and humans
• 11:28
  with our aggressive nature. We we are
• 11:33
  facing the very real prospect of
• 11:36
  self-extinction.
• 11:38
  >> Yeah, absolutely. Uh I think that if if
• 11:43
  the majority of humans knew how close we
• 11:46
  actually were to the precipice, it's a
• 11:48
  little bit like death and instead it's
• 11:51
  it personal death as in mega death and
• 11:54
  just sort of like having that sort of
• 11:58
  damocles and instead of freaking out
• 12:01
  going, "Oh my god, it's a miracle to be
• 12:04
  alive right now. What can I what can I
• 12:07
  do right now to make my children a
• 12:10
  better a better home right now? Right
• 12:13
  this second.
• 12:14
  >> That's a wonderful question and I hope
• 12:16
  all of our viewers are taking it to
• 12:18
  heart. I know in your life one of the
• 12:22
  major decisions that you came to make
• 12:24
  was to set up these 10-day long
• 12:27
  intensives to bring people out of uh the
• 12:30
  their cities into the wild.
• 12:34
  I mean, I actually think you can do a
• 12:36
  Wild Earth Intensive in the city, and
• 12:38
  I'm I'm I'm contemplating that. Uh
• 12:41
  because it's all it's all energy.
• 12:44
  Everything's part of nature. Uh our
• 12:47
  humanity doesn't end in the city. But
• 12:50
  but but to take your question on face
• 12:52
  value, yes, I think it is imperative
• 12:56
  that we get off the phones and the
• 12:59
  computers and we um
• 13:03
  get together in ceremony and nature
• 13:06
  connection and storytelling and mu music
• 13:09
  and art and listening to the elders.
• 13:14
  uh and and getting and quieting our
• 13:16
  minds down uh and playing with each
• 13:20
  other that the these are all uh these
• 13:24
  are all so fundamental to our nature.
• 13:27
  We're so tribal uh in in the good sense
• 13:32
  of that word and it it's just like an
• 13:35
  old muscle. I see it happen over and
• 13:37
  over again. We exercise that muscle and
• 13:40
  then it's like, "Oh my god, this just
• 13:42
  feels so good to be with my brothers and
• 13:45
  sisters in this way."
• 13:47
  >> You use the phrase tribal in the good
• 13:51
  sense of of the word because often we
• 13:54
  hear about tribalism in the bad sense of
• 13:58
  of the word.
• 13:59
  >> Yeah. I mean, you know, Jeff, like words
• 14:02
  matter and you know, we see them bandied
• 14:05
  around all the time and we read about
• 14:07
  them and so I'm like, "Yep, we don't
• 14:10
  want Taliban tribalism, but we do want
• 14:14
  Lakota tribalism in the in the
• 14:17
  traditional sense." So it, you know,
• 14:19
  what do what do we mean by that? But,
• 14:21
  you know, for that matter, I I I should
• 14:23
  qualify. I don't I I
• 14:27
  one of the things that comes across and
• 14:29
  I just finished his book John Perkins
• 14:32
  John Touch the Jaguar and what he brings
• 14:35
  out is that tribalism kind of has been
• 14:39
  alive and well in
• 14:41
  well alive and bad in many indigenous
• 14:45
  cultures for a long time. and that so
• 14:48
  the emerging planetary culture
• 14:52
  uh makes friends out of former enemies.
• 14:55
  So so so in a sense this is a great
• 14:59
  question. I think what we're moving from
• 15:02
  is from tribalism in the competitive
• 15:06
  sense to tribe of the cooperative sense
• 15:10
  of really learning that true tribe is is
• 15:16
  cooperating for the greater good of all.
• 15:20
  >> How do you define tribe?
• 15:22
  >> You know, I I don't know. How do you
• 15:24
  define it?
• 15:25
  >> [laughter]
• 15:25
  >> Well, I grew up Jewish and and so we we
• 15:29
  came from a tribal culture. For the most
• 15:32
  part, to be honest, I've rejected that.
• 15:34
  I I I I found it for myself unhealthy. I
• 15:39
  have many Jewish friends who are devout
• 15:44
  uh and and I respect them. There are
• 15:45
  many beautiful things about the Jewish
• 15:48
  religion, but one [clears throat] of the
• 15:49
  things that I've observed in tribal
• 15:52
  culture is that it it tends to have the
• 15:54
  insiders and the outsiders. And
• 15:56
  typically the insiders look down upon
• 15:59
  the outsiders
• 16:01
  in various tribal cultures. It could be
• 16:03
  political, it could be
• 16:07
  academic, but it seems to me that it
• 16:11
  it's not all embracing.
• 16:13
  >> Yeah. I I I'm with you. Um I'm Jewish as
• 16:18
  well. Uh my mother is Jewish. My father
• 16:21
  is German Catholic. I grew up in a
• 16:24
  left-wing se secular uh background. Um
• 16:29
  which allowed me to learn about
• 16:32
  spirituality and for that matter Judaism
• 16:35
  on my own terms and I'm very very
• 16:38
  grateful for that. I don't I didn't get
• 16:41
  uh I didn't get uh indoctrinated
• 16:44
  uh in in that in what that tribal way.
• 16:49
  And so when I look at Judaism, I see the
• 16:52
  best and the essence of it. And I think
• 16:55
  fundamentally what we're talking about
• 16:58
  here is a um a kind of
• 17:04
  an upleveling of our perception of our
• 17:08
  fellow human beings and who we are in
• 17:11
  this universe and what's going on here.
• 17:14
  And just in our lifetime uh we've seen
• 17:17
  this uh we've seen the planet from
• 17:21
  space. And I and and so again just to
• 17:23
  use that that that term uh planetary
• 17:28
  culture like the idea that right now I
• 17:33
  let's say it was it was um
• 17:37
  yeah it was even 20 25 years ago when I
• 17:40
  could barely when I could barely
• 17:42
  communicate with my friends in email. I
• 17:45
  you know the emails would take sort of
• 17:47
  10 hours to get back and forth and it
• 17:50
  was a strange time and here it's like
• 17:53
  boom I can I can set up a zoom call with
• 17:57
  somebody in lake by call for the next
• 17:59
  morning and we can talk just the way you
• 18:02
  and I are talking now. So this this
• 18:06
  compression of how we experience
• 18:09
  ourselves as humans for those of us who
• 18:12
  are fortunate and abundant enough to
• 18:15
  have enough food and computers and so
• 18:18
  forth to experience this. It's it's
• 18:20
  absolutely utterly astounding as any as
• 18:25
  as you know and as I'm sure our our
• 18:28
  listeners know. Well, you mentioned Lake
• 18:30
  by by call and I recall that you you
• 18:35
  have had personal experience with the
• 18:38
  shamans of Siberia, the original people
• 18:42
  from whom we derive the word shamanism.
• 18:45
  >> Correct. Uh, I'm glad you brought that
• 18:47
  up because
• 18:49
  um, sitting on my desk is this card in
• 18:52
  Russian uh, that only Russians will
• 18:56
  understand, but it's from a a shaman
• 19:00
  named Moonheart
• 19:03
  in Tuven. and she um uh she's on the
• 19:07
  other side now, but um
• 19:11
  in 2002
• 19:13
  um I ended up sleeping uh in in a in a
• 19:19
  small uh a small little Siberian house
• 19:25
  uh in separate beds with her and her si
• 19:28
  and her and her sister. And
• 19:32
  um at 5:00 in the morning, she woke me
• 19:37
  up with her mind. She was sleeping. I
• 19:41
  felt her talk to me in my dreams and
• 19:44
  then wake me up and and I have never
• 19:48
  experienced anything like this before.
• 19:51
  after she instructed me to go outside
• 19:55
  and I would see the remainder that my
• 19:58
  existing and the remainder of my spirit
• 20:01
  guides in kind of in living color.
• 20:05
  [laughter]
• 20:06
  Um, and that's exactly what I what
• 20:10
  happened. It was a c it was the
• 20:13
  understatement is revelatory and
• 20:16
  exalting. Um and then the the next day
• 20:21
  she did an amazing fire ceremony with
• 20:25
  both the um the small number of people
• 20:29
  who were uh in my group uh and the
• 20:33
  entire
• 20:34
  village of maybe 150 people. And I'm
• 20:38
  saying all this because she was a star
• 20:43
  shaman, the most powerful person I have
• 20:46
  ever met. And not at not because she she
• 20:51
  used telepathy with me, but because um
• 20:57
  she was pure she was pure power. It was
• 21:01
  like there was no there was nothing
• 21:04
  separating her and her energy field from
• 21:08
  the rest of nature in the way that she
• 21:10
  expressed herself. Uh, and so she's one
• 21:14
  and I've met um dozens of shamans
• 21:19
  throughout Siberia, including uh uh
• 21:22
  Biratia, which is the area around Lake
• 21:25
  Bal. And and Jeff, they're not too
• 21:28
  shabby either, but I I just uh I'm
• 21:31
  bringing her up uh partially to honor
• 21:34
  her memory and her heart. uh you know
• 21:38
  just just such a remarkable woman and
• 21:41
  people can YouTube her if if if they
• 21:44
  want to know more. I find it fascinating
• 21:47
  you've made a point of uh participating
• 21:50
  in ceremonies with shamans around the
• 21:54
  world. Do you think of yourself as a
• 21:56
  shaman?
• 21:57
  The most wonderful part of being with
• 22:02
  uh native elders and medicine people and
• 22:07
  shamans and healers and leaders
• 22:11
  uh all over the world is that I've been
• 22:15
  a fly on the wall. And I I I really mean
• 22:19
  that. Like I I somehow I was taught just
• 22:24
  shut up and listening. just shut up and
• 22:26
  listen and don't exert your big white
• 22:30
  body into the into the mix. Just just be
• 22:34
  a humble dude as as best as you can. Um
• 22:38
  and so I learned a lot that way. Like I
• 22:42
  learned a lot. I feel like I actually
• 22:44
  did get a training um an informal
• 22:48
  training. Some formal but mostly
• 22:51
  informal. Um, and as far as that title
• 22:55
  goes, um, I do not think of myself as a
• 22:58
  shaman. Um, that that title is only
• 23:03
  bestowed upon you by your community. Um,
• 23:09
  I uh I do use the word shamanic guide
• 23:13
  because I think of myself as holding the
• 23:17
  space for people to have their own
• 23:21
  revelatory experience that everybody has
• 23:25
  the numminous deep inside of them. And
• 23:29
  so if I can be a catalyst for that,
• 23:31
  right on. Now, I know there's a
• 23:35
  controversy of sorts regarding
• 23:38
  the importation of culture from
• 23:42
  indigenous people. Some people think of
• 23:45
  it as as cultural theft
• 23:48
  of of a kind and on on the other hand
• 23:51
  many native people are eager to share
• 23:53
  their culture and many are not. So there
• 23:56
  there's I for example in many interviews
• 23:59
  I suggest to viewers that we are the
• 24:02
  inheritors of uh spiritual traditions
• 24:05
  from the world over in in modern
• 24:08
  culture. But other people have commented
• 24:11
  and said that's not true. Not every
• 24:14
  spiritual culture wishes you to inherit
• 24:17
  their traditions.
• 24:19
  [snorts and gasps]
• 24:19
  >> Yeah. Well, I uh I tend to agree with
• 24:23
  you as long as everything is done with
• 24:28
  respect and permission. Uh so um yeah,
• 24:34
  this is a huge subject that is so such a
• 24:38
  work in progress especially for me cuz
• 24:41
  it it comes up over and over again in in
• 24:44
  different ways. But um
• 24:48
  you know I like the term cultural
• 24:50
  appreciation. So you you you you don't
• 24:54
  appropriate you appreciate. And when we
• 24:57
  go back far enough in our ancestors
• 25:00
  ancestry in our heritage in our blood we
• 25:04
  all come from earthhonoring
• 25:07
  uh earthhonoring traditions. So, the
• 25:11
  problem here on Turtle Island is uh
• 25:15
  we're we just even though we're Jewish,
• 25:20
  let's lump us together in the white
• 25:22
  people category. as long as as long as
• 25:25
  the white people colonizer settlers um
• 25:30
  are outnumbering Native Americans
• 25:33
  whatever 100 to one um we're we're
• 25:39
  we're in a position of either as you as
• 25:43
  you talked about previously of uh
• 25:46
  [clears throat]
• 25:47
  the word came to mind emulating
• 25:49
  ourselves self-destroying ourselves here
• 25:52
  or we can actually learn from the people
• 25:56
  who've lived here, who've loved the land
• 25:59
  longer than anybody, who's who've
• 26:01
  developed ceremony, who've developed a
• 26:04
  way of life that was taught to them by
• 26:08
  the land. And so if we can come to them
• 26:13
  and I I'm I think I'm speaking to
• 26:15
  Americans right now, you know, if we can
• 26:18
  come to them with humility and respect
• 26:21
  and say, "I'd really like to learn from
• 26:24
  you and let me know what you feel you're
• 26:28
  comfortable with me sharing. Uh we'll,
• 26:31
  you know, can we go from there?" And and
• 26:34
  I think that just, you know, that just
• 26:36
  turns everything around from from from
• 26:40
  yeah, cowboys and Indians and and and
• 26:43
  and and so forth. So I I could talk the
• 26:46
  entire rest of our time on that subject
• 26:49
  because it's it's loaded in a lot of
• 26:52
  ways, but it's so important. And and one
• 26:56
  last thing I'll add, it's very important
• 26:59
  to have the uncomfortable
• 27:01
  conversations. And it's important to
• 27:05
  be um to be present for the
• 27:10
  understandable anger that
• 27:14
  many many American Indians feel about
• 27:18
  what you know it's there and to be able
• 27:21
  to listen through this into a way where
• 27:27
  um where my my Navajo teacher Leon
• 27:32
  would say, "Since you outnumber us 10 to
• 27:35
  one, then you better learn learn these
• 27:38
  ways and learn them good."
• 27:41
  >> I've also heard from people who say
• 27:43
  there's a a risk of romanticizing
• 27:47
  Native Americans, that they're not
• 27:50
  necessarily as as pure and spiritual and
• 27:55
  uh earthloving as as we might think. If
• 27:58
  you look back at history, there's the
• 28:01
  suggestion that many large animals were
• 28:03
  hunted to extinction here in North
• 28:06
  America in uh pre-colonial times.
• 28:11
  >> Yeah, I I think that's absolutely true.
• 28:13
  I think it's I think that the the
• 28:17
  converse, let's just say it, the native
• 28:20
  non-native conversation is that much
• 28:22
  richer if we don't romanticize them. for
• 28:25
  one to see that every single one of them
• 28:28
  is human uh is dealing with their own
• 28:31
  problems uh and all of the issues that
• 28:36
  all the rest of us humans face
• 28:38
  especially in a colonized world that's
• 28:42
  got us in a sense our m it's got us by
• 28:45
  the throats it's in our minds uh this
• 28:48
  undoing of
• 28:50
  ancestral trauma if you will is a
• 28:53
  full-time job So yeah, Jeff, I I think
• 28:57
  that uh they're not pure. They're not
• 29:00
  perfect. And as we were discussing
• 29:02
  before when we were talking about
• 29:03
  tribalism,
• 29:05
  um yeah, there's a the there there's a
• 29:08
  whole lot of not love lost between many
• 29:12
  many Native American tribes uh pre um uh
• 29:17
  pre colonization.
• 29:20
  Um, so it's always to me about taking
• 29:24
  the best and leaving the worst. Um, and
• 29:27
  and and
• 29:30
  there's [snorts] in the traditional
• 29:33
  practice by the elders of Native
• 29:36
  Americans, Native Australians, Native
• 29:39
  Siberians, there's something
• 29:42
  fundamentally [snorts]
• 29:44
  pre precious. It's a treasure uh that
• 29:51
  that needs to be protected and passed on
• 29:54
  at all costs.
• 29:55
  >> I want to go back to a phrase you used
• 29:58
  earlier, Turtle Island. First, I
• 30:01
  thought, "Oh, that must be where you're
• 30:02
  living somewhere on the east coast, but
• 30:04
  of course, Turtle Island is is a native
• 30:07
  term for all of North America."
• 30:10
  >> Correct. Here we are on on on Turtle
• 30:13
  Island. And uh you know I was just
• 30:16
  leading a vision quest and uh and uh one
• 30:20
  of the one of the guys who who came back
• 30:24
  out
• 30:25
  >> [snorts]
• 30:25
  >> uh he he got he a spirit name came came
• 30:29
  to him sacred turtle. [snorts] There's a
• 30:32
  power um a slow power that the reptiles
• 30:38
  and particularly the turtles have. It's
• 30:42
  like the perspective
• 30:44
  of
• 30:46
  what is it called in geological time? I
• 30:48
  think it's epochs or errors like of the
• 30:52
  long long periods of really knowing the
• 30:57
  earth from this primordial sense and of
• 31:01
  kind of coming out through the mud. And
• 31:04
  I I witnessed him I witnessed him come
• 31:08
  out of that and I said, "Aha, you know,
• 31:12
  this is a nonnative, but he is
• 31:14
  completely
• 31:16
  um
• 31:18
  demonstrating
• 31:20
  this uh energy of of Turtle Island."
• 31:25
  >> Vision quest is a term as as well that
• 31:28
  we hear uh bandied around all the time.
• 31:33
  I've never been on a vision quest. I
• 31:36
  think it might be useful for our viewers
• 31:38
  if you could describe a little bit more
• 31:40
  what what that's like, what it's about.
• 31:43
  >> It's maybe one of the most ancient
• 31:46
  rights of passage. Uh in some ways you
• 31:50
  could say Jesus did it and Buddha did
• 31:52
  it. uh you go out into relative for now
• 31:58
  and in the past wild wild nature away
• 32:01
  from people. You're by yourself. You're
• 32:04
  fasting. You're praying. Uh you're
• 32:07
  asking for guidance. Um you you know you
• 32:12
  you you humble you humble yourself
• 32:15
  before creator and creation.
• 32:18
  uh because we are in some ways, Jeff,
• 32:22
  lowly humans. We're the new kids on the
• 32:24
  block here. Uh from a biological sense,
• 32:28
  we need guidance big time. And so we do
• 32:32
  we do uh we do that. Uh we can do that.
• 32:37
  Uh and I I highly recommend it for
• 32:40
  anybody who's in in decent health at
• 32:43
  whatever age. Uh because we're all so
• 32:48
  incredibly overstimulated.
• 32:51
  Uh and that quiet time of just like
• 32:54
  really letting nature seep into our
• 32:57
  bones. There's nothing like it. Nothing
• 33:01
  like it.
• 33:02
  >> There is an old phrase in science,
• 33:05
  anttogeny recapitulates phogyny.
• 33:09
  Uh the idea being that even to become a
• 33:13
  human starting as a a zygote, a
• 33:16
  single-sellled organism and evolving to
• 33:20
  become a fetus and an infant and then an
• 33:22
  adult. We go through the entire process
• 33:26
  of evolutionary history just in being
• 33:29
  born. Uh so that's part of our heritage
• 33:34
  inside our psyche, inside our genes.
• 33:37
  Jeff, I just got the I got the chills.
• 33:40
  It's like when
• 33:43
  biological understanding touches on the
• 33:46
  divine. I'm just like, "Oh my god, we
• 33:49
  get to be born now to be able to take a
• 33:53
  concept like that and feel it in our
• 33:56
  bodies and the the the the truth of it
• 33:59
  and the wonder of it and the mira and
• 34:01
  the miracle of it." And um you know I
• 34:05
  that that teacher Leon Seoaro that I
• 34:08
  mentioned and another living Navajo men
• 34:12
  man just just uh used the term we're
• 34:16
  [laughter]
• 34:17
  five fingered earth
• 34:20
  earth surface dwellers. I mean yes we
• 34:23
  have 10 fingers but there's something
• 34:24
  about this one hand. Uh, can you see the
• 34:28
  hand on the on the on the red on the red
• 34:32
  rock wall? We're fivefingered
• 34:37
  surface earth dwellers
• 34:40
  and um
• 34:42
  there's something about
• 34:44
  that um learning of of uh um
• 34:52
  how does it go on anttogyny recapitul
• 34:56
  recapitulates fogyny yeah
• 34:59
  >> um
• 35:00
  >> there's a connection there that I can't
• 35:03
  intellect actually put together. But
• 35:06
  there is one, and I think you know where
• 35:08
  I'm where where what what I'm getting
• 35:10
  at.
• 35:11
  >> Well, I think of it in two different
• 35:12
  ways. One is simply the biological
• 35:16
  organism that I'm uh experiencing right
• 35:20
  now started as a single cell and and
• 35:23
  evolved to my present body. But there's
• 35:27
  another sense uh has to do with what you
• 35:30
  could think of as reincarnation.
• 35:32
  that uh at the soul level I suspect that
• 35:36
  I've had
• 35:39
  thousands of lifetimes both human and
• 35:43
  non-human and and that I've been around
• 35:46
  on this planet possibly or even other
• 35:49
  planets for billions billions of years.
• 35:53
  >> Exactly
• 35:55
  [laughter]
• 35:56
  what you said.
• 35:59
  Exactly. Yes. I mean there's a the word
• 36:04
  divine again comes to me of just uh
• 36:08
  divine infinite intelligence coursing
• 36:11
  through our veins and bones and
• 36:14
  ancestral memory. Uh, and that all of
• 36:18
  these
• 36:19
  um,
• 36:21
  you know, I think of Stan Grath of kind
• 36:24
  of all of these um,
• 36:28
  psychosspiritual
• 36:29
  technologies to help us [snorts] feel
• 36:33
  this edge we're talking about where
• 36:36
  we're not just like heads on a stick,
• 36:39
  you know, and it's all just abstract
• 36:42
  f, you know, like philosophical
• 36:44
  thinking, but We actually come into our
• 36:47
  bodies with this into our biology and
• 36:51
  feel these concepts uh as living truths.
• 36:56
  That's when the it gets juicy.
• 37:00
  >> Well, and of course the subtitle of your
• 37:02
  book building an ecstatic culture. It
• 37:05
  seems to me that this is the fundamental
• 37:08
  basis of ecstasy is is an awareness of
• 37:11
  the enormity of our divine essence.
• 37:15
  Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. I Jeff, you
• 37:18
  really get, you know, you you clearly
• 37:20
  have have studied what my work is.
• 37:23
  You've read my book and I'm I'm I'm
• 37:26
  honored, you know, I'm I'm honored to
• 37:29
  just be heard in this way. We're still
• 37:32
  left with the um how can I say it? the
• 37:36
  the paradox that
• 37:40
  we're fa we're as a civilization we
• 37:42
  really are at the precipice of our own
• 37:45
  potential destruction. We need to pull
• 37:47
  away from the precipice or we won't
• 37:50
  survive
• 37:52
  as living biological entities on this
• 37:55
  planet or if we do survive it'll be in a
• 37:57
  very diminished format. Maybe maybe
• 38:00
  there'll be a rebirth from there. But on
• 38:03
  the other hand, death is not the end
• 38:06
  either.
• 38:07
  >> Correct.
• 38:09
  Um, I mentioned John Perkins and he's
• 38:12
  another one of my teachers and I did a
• 38:15
  formal shamanic training with him and I
• 38:18
  remember coming back from one of his
• 38:20
  workshops and I got off the plane and I
• 38:23
  was driving and I felt spirit say, "Your
• 38:28
  allegiance, Bill Fifer, is not with the
• 38:32
  humans but with life itself." And so,
• 38:36
  um, we surrender to the the creative
• 38:40
  life principle, to all of biology as we
• 38:44
  know it, and for that matter all of
• 38:47
  divine intelligence, and whatever will
• 38:50
  be will be. Um, and I'm very attached to
• 38:55
  us two-leggeds. I love us. I think we're
• 38:59
  just crazy aberrant,
• 39:03
  you know, just beautiful in amazing
• 39:07
  nerds, you know? We're just like we're
• 39:09
  just kind of stumbling awkward gangly
• 39:13
  adolescents. Shall I come up with some
• 39:15
  more adjectives? And you know, and it's
• 39:18
  like I you know, there's all this like
• 39:21
  what is it called? What's the word for
• 39:24
  self-hating? Not misogyny. um mythan
• 39:27
  missanthropy.
• 39:30
  >> Yeah.
• 39:30
  >> Yeah. And [clears throat] it's in in
• 39:32
  ecological circles and it's like it's
• 39:35
  just misplaced, you know, we're we're
• 39:38
  just uh we're just traumatized, Jeff,
• 39:40
  we're just traumatized in so many ways.
• 39:43
  And uh so a [snorts] little bit of
• 39:45
  compassion will go a long ways. And um
• 39:50
  you know Joanna Macy, another one of my
• 39:52
  teachers, it's like she basically says
• 39:54
  just don't don't get too
• 39:58
  a [clears throat] don't get I'm not
• 39:59
  talking to you obviously, but it's like
• 40:02
  don't get too ahead of yourself in terms
• 40:04
  of freaking out about what could happen.
• 40:08
  >> [snorts]
• 40:08
  >> um drop into the ecstasy and gratitude
• 40:14
  and beauty of life. And because death is
• 40:18
  right here, like ready to chop us apart
• 40:23
  at any minute, we get to love fully,
• 40:26
  like now's the time to love more deeply,
• 40:30
  like Terrence said, than we've ever
• 40:33
  loved before. Like why hold back, right?
• 40:37
  Why hold back?
• 40:38
  >> When when we look at nature, we see
• 40:42
  basically, and you describe it in your
• 40:44
  book, two forces at work, competition
• 40:47
  and cooperation. And you seem to be
• 40:51
  suggesting that we could just move a
• 40:53
  little further in the direction of
• 40:55
  cooperation.
• 40:57
  >> Contrary to popular opinion, it's not
• 41:00
  just cooperation. It's a spectrum
• 41:03
  between competition and cooperation, but
• 41:07
  you know, I I think the native view is
• 41:11
  very fundamentally
• 41:13
  about balance. So we've kind of gone all
• 41:16
  the way over here to one side of of yeah
• 41:21
  of imbalance in the competitive sense
• 41:23
  and we just have to swing uh you know I
• 41:28
  I'm putting the weight of my efforts
• 41:30
  behind
• 41:32
  >> [clears throat]
• 41:32
  >> uh learning a a much more cooperative
• 41:35
  way of of doing business.
• 41:38
  >> Can you offer any specifics?
• 41:41
  >> Well, I was thinking in two ways. First
• 41:43
  of all, it's looking inside of myself
• 41:46
  and seeing where are my
• 41:50
  competitive and for that matter uh
• 41:54
  predatory and um dominating impulses
• 41:58
  inside of myself and uh and bringing
• 42:02
  them to the fire. yesterday for for the
• 42:05
  autumn equinox, you know, I offered a
• 42:08
  lot to to the fire [laughter] and I
• 42:10
  think that that that that so the the
• 42:13
  self purification is part of it, but
• 42:17
  also as I so, you know, emphasize over
• 42:20
  and over again in my book, cooperating
• 42:23
  with other humans to learn how to
• 42:26
  cooperate is is my that's
• 42:29
  [clears throat] my thesis.
• 42:32
  and cooperate with the natural world in
• 42:35
  the process.
• 42:36
  >> But if humans are divided into camps as
• 42:41
  especially politically here in the
• 42:43
  United States, uh they're big time and
• 42:46
  it's very tribal. It seems to me they
• 42:49
  have what are known as silos. They each
• 42:52
  tribe is now getting information from
• 42:55
  completely unique and different sources.
• 42:57
  So, it's hard to get people to even
• 42:59
  agree on on what what the facts are. How
• 43:03
  how [clears throat] is one to cooperate
• 43:05
  in such a circumstance?
• 43:07
  >> I hear you uh loud and clear. I always
• 43:10
  think of the USA as being the crucible
• 43:14
  for the rest of the planet. And uh you
• 43:17
  yeah, we're we we we're certainly in a
• 43:20
  dicey uh situation. Um,
• 43:24
  yeah. I mean, as
• 43:29
  my view, Jeff, is that I can't I can't
• 43:33
  do anything about 300 whatever 30
• 43:36
  million Americans. What I can do is I
• 43:41
  can um
• 43:44
  do the best I can to uh speak to the
• 43:48
  people that understand what I'm saying.
• 43:52
  uh and to reach out and this is I want
• 43:55
  to I want to underline this word local
• 43:59
  local bioreional bio- regional we're not
• 44:04
  only not only head we're not only not
• 44:07
  we're not heads on a stick but we're
• 44:10
  also
• 44:12
  uh you know we've got all this food
• 44:14
  trucked in from California but
• 44:16
  fundamentally
• 44:17
  as humans we really need to rely on
• 44:22
  on the nature that's around us and so
• 44:26
  relearning that and in case the
• 44:30
  prophecies of what shall I say you know
• 44:34
  a purification that's how the hopes
• 44:36
  refer to it that that this world as we
• 44:40
  know it will undergo a purification
• 44:44
  then it will be um
• 44:48
  uh important for us to learn the ways of
• 44:53
  the earth and how to pass them on which
• 44:56
  includes the physical uh as well. But
• 45:00
  again just to underline
• 45:02
  uh
• 45:04
  the before you asked about cooperation.
• 45:08
  So, another word that comes to mind is
• 45:10
  solidarity of reaching out to people in
• 45:14
  your community who may not agree with
• 45:16
  you politically, but get together on
• 45:20
  food, water, children, what do we most
• 45:24
  care about? Uh, you know, how do we how
• 45:28
  do we go forward together? Where are our
• 45:31
  points of commonality?
• 45:33
  uh you know, we're not going to change
• 45:35
  Fox News tomorrow or CNN for that
• 45:38
  matter. Like that's somebody else's
• 45:40
  work, not mine.
• 45:42
  >> Well, Bill Feifer, this has been a very
• 45:46
  delightful conversation. I really
• 45:48
  appreciate the work that you're doing in
• 45:51
  the world today. Uh your focus on
• 45:54
  ecstasy is vital. I think I I know many
• 45:59
  years ago my old friend George Leonard
• 46:02
  wrote the book Education and Ecstasy in
• 46:04
  in which he pointed out it is through
• 46:06
  ecstasy that we learn the most.
• 46:09
  >> Wow. Wow. Wow. You know I my hats off to
• 46:15
  anybody in this dominant culture who has
• 46:19
  the guts to use the word ecstasy because
• 46:24
  it's outside of the box. You know, the
• 46:26
  colonial model just wants us to be like
• 46:30
  not too depressed, not too happy, just
• 46:33
  good, you know, workaholics and
• 46:36
  everything will be okay. And ecstasy is
• 46:38
  like, talk about revolutionary. I love
• 46:42
  it. And I'm I'm I George [snorts]
• 46:44
  Leonard, you know, is sort of an old
• 46:46
  philosophical mentor that I forgot all
• 46:49
  about. And uh I'm I'm glad you brought
• 46:52
  that to my attention. I'll have to look
• 46:54
  at that book. Well, Bill, it's been a
• 46:57
  real joy to be with you today and to be
• 47:00
  able to share your your wonderful
• 47:02
  insights with the New Thinking Alloud
• 47:04
  viewers. I hope we can have future
• 47:06
  conversations as well.
• 47:12
  >> You I mean I I said it to your face in
• 47:15
  the middle of the show. I I mean,
• 47:18
  nobody's kind of got me this well. Like
• 47:21
  I've had a lot of good podcasts in the
• 47:23
  last 6 months, but Jeff, wow. I'm really
• 47:27
  grateful for you. Thank you. You You
• 47:29
  have this ability to
• 47:32
  um stay on a how would I call it? Like
• 47:36
  you have a certain arc or a direction
• 47:38
  that you are headed towards and certain
• 47:40
  key points in your brain, but you're
• 47:43
  also
• 47:45
  with me like you're present with me with
• 47:48
  what I'm saying. And it's a very uh it's
• 47:51
  an unusual combination. Thank you
• 47:55
  >> and thank you for being with me. And for
• 47:57
  those of you listening and watching,
• 47:59
  thank you for being with us.
• 48:05
  [music]
• 48:17
  >> [music]
• 48:22
  [music]
• 48:24
  >> New Thinking Aloud is presented by the
• 48:27
  California Institute for Human Science,
• 48:30
  a fully accredited university offering
• 48:33
  distant learning graduate degrees that
• 48:35
  focus on mind, body, and spirit. the
• 48:38
  topics that we cover here. We are
• 48:40
  particularly excited to announce new
• 48:43
  degrees emphasizing parasychology and
• 48:46
  the paranormal. Visit their website at
• 48:49
  cihs.edu.
• 48:53
  The new thinking aloud magazine issue 10
• 48:56
  on UFOs and UAP is now ready for free
• 49:00
  download. And you can also order
• 49:02
  beautiful printed copies. Go to
• 49:04
  newthinkingaloud.org.
• 49:08
  Book four in the new thinking aloud
• 49:10
  dialogue series is Charles T. Tart, 70
• 49:14
  years of exploring consciousness and
• 49:18
  parasychology.
• 49:19
  Now available on Amazon.
• 49:23
  >> For early access to our videos and live
• 49:27
  stream events, sign up for our free
• 49:30
  weekly newsletter at newinkingaloud.org.