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Evangelising Evangelism || Passion for Life || Mission || SLP402 · The Speak Life Podcast

• 0:06
  SPEAKER_03: Hello and thank you so much for downloading this episode, episode 402 of the Speak Life Podcast.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_03: My name is Thomas Thorogood, and as always, we will jump straight into the episode and I will join you again with Paul Feasy at the end for some final musings.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Glenn Scrivener.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_01: Hello.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Nate Morganlock.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_01: Hello.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_02: I think this is the first time in a month.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_01: Some weeks.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_04: Yes, the triad is complete.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_02: Because we've all been off.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_02: Well I say we've all been off.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_02: I've not been off doing anything.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_02: But you two have been off doing various bits and bobs.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_02: So you were away at Norfolk before.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_02: We had a chat about that last week.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we did.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_01: I've now back here.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_04: Back now.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_04: And Glenn, you know.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_04: Norfolk, the whales of the East, as Alan Partridge would put it.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_04: And I've been on the I've been on missions, so passion for life.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_04: I guess that's that's what got the the churches in your neck of the woods thinking about uh putting on mission together.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_04: And uh there are about twelve churches uh where I went and and we put together uh a Monday to Friday program.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_04: So I interviewed a local businessman one night, and uh he interestingly had a had a very uninteresting conversion story, but a fascinating story about how his faith interacts with his business life and the costly decisions he's made to follow his Christian convictions and the way that the Lord has blessed that.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_04: And that was just fascinating to see faith kind of lived out and in the concrete, and and then being able to say, okay, crack open Luke's gospel and let's have a look at us uh you know at a story.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_04: So that was that was kind of brilliant, but I I guess what we want to talk about today is they are massive expenditures of human resources and money and in some cases kind of like relational capital as well.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_04: Like you invite your neighbor to one of these things, if it goes really badly, it's probably another three years before you can get them back to something, you know, if the if the speaker is uh is really lousy.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_04: Um and so, yeah.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_04: Is it worth doing?
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_04: And I guess m my answer is yes and no.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_04: I think there are some things that are worth doing, some things that aren't.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_04: And the whole thing, I think, needs thinking about theologically and not just pragmatically.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_04: I I think our churches are very good at saying mission is important, vital even, um, but that's not the same thing as having a theology of mission.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_04: And and maybe we can get into what a theology of mission might look like and then how that theology of mission might be applied to weeks of intensive outreach.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_04: So uh the good thing and the the the best moment and the worst moment were right next to each other in our week, which which might be s sort of indicative of some of these things.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_04: So the night when I interviewed the businessman and he talked about his faith in Christ, and then I got to open up Luke's gospel, and like we we heard about people who trusted in Jesus that night.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_04: We had response cards, which um I could take or leave, but in in one sense, the response card is a good way of saying to people, okay, you might have responded to Jesus.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_04: Can we help you take the next few steps with Jesus?
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_04: Christianity is a team sport, it's not a solo activity, how can we help you move things forward?
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_04: And and we learnt through response cards that people had trusted in Jesus that night.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_04: I don't know what that means in the context of eternity, but I do mean that I I I guess it means that on the nights they experienced something about Jesus and wanted to take things further, which is great.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_04: The very next morning there was uh a midweek um breakfast at a church that doesn't usually do breakfasts at any time, let alone midweek, and it wasn't really in a part of the town where it would make sense for commuters to kind of go there first and then go off to work.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_04: And really the only people who were there were those who were making the bacon sandwiches um and those who were on the door, and the and just the the massive sense of real investments and then real disappointment, as though the only reason to gather together would be if there are non-Christians you know present at the event.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_04: When actually I I think the Lord sort of redeemed it because we we just sat down around the table and we just had fellowship together, and we had a lot of bacon sandwiches to eat.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_04: Um and just sitting around uh God's word, and I think everybody by the end of just chatting together about Jesus felt that it was worth rolling out of bed for that.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_04: But whether whether that was the best sort of a mission event, I think the answer is no.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_04: Um and so the trouble with evangelism is it's so vital, it's it's one of those things where you know something must be done.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_04: This is something.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and so as long as you're doing something, it's like you almost cannot speak against whatever whatever efforts have been made.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_04: You know, so Dwight Moody is famous for saying, you know, when somebody said, I don't like your way of doing evangelism, he said, I prefer my way of doing evangelism to your way of not doing evangelism.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_04: Which is just this sort of it's a free pass on any kind of pragmatic nonsense, really.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_04: And a lot of evangelists like me claim that free pass and kind of say, Well, at least it's something.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_04: Whereas like you can do evangelism that's like really counterproductive, and you can do evangelism that's not evangelical, right?
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_04: Not actually shaped by the evangel that you're meant to hold forth.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_04: And at that stage, I think we need to go back to that.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_01: You can do that, but you ought not to do it, you ought not to.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_01: We can free evangelism that's not evangelical.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_01: But so and it it it seems to be the case that there are methods or approaches or strategies for evangelism which people have got used to.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_01: They feel like they know how they fit into this kind of evangelistic machine, and so we just turn the evangelism crank, and we all kind of know how we fit into that, and then we produce a series of events and and then it's done, and we all go, Thank goodness.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_04: Let's not do that again for another couple of years.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_04: But no one can say we didn't try.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_04: Which is which is almost the goal.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_04: Almost the goal of this is to expend so much energy that we're exhausted at the end, and we say, Well, we did more than the church down the road.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_01: And that thing of you know, people are trying something out, there's l great intentions, people are are, you know, setting their alarms early to get up and they want to serve and they want to, you know, contribute.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_01: And um I mean, one of the great things, or the one of the funniest things I found about being in Norwich was that did the churches have the life letters?
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_01: So Passion for Life had arranged these kind of you know, this big kind of sign that fitted in your church or whatever room you're doing in.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_01: And the the the moving of these letters around Norfolk was just quite a fun kind of thing.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_01: And we had loads of spare bulbs because of course it had to be sort of folded away and then put into a card.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_04: Did you have a lot of terrible puns about who took which letter and that sort of thing?
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_04: Oh no, you didn't.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, okay.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_04: I just I just real I just really enjoyed dropping an E in church.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_01: You didn't have a no no no one in the Clenn's taking the P.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_01: You need all four letters because it can make one L of a difference if you don't have the first one.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_02: So let's say then you because you you talked about two events there that were kind of back to back, separated by a night, and they obviously went quite differently.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um but they were quite different events, and you said there's a kind of reason maybe Wednesday morning didn't work so well just logistically.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_02: But w when you say kind of you could do mission that is shaped or not shaped by the good news that you're holding forwards or holding out, let's take two events that are both evening events.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_02: What would be an example of something where you could say this is where it's not really shaped by that, but this is where it this is how it would be different if it was shaped by that.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_02: You got any kind of thoughts on that?
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_02: Because I'm just trying to make it kind of tangible, maybe.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I think like maybe maybe we could use like some images.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_04: So I've got in the um uh I've got some slides that sometimes I use and and on Friday I I gathered together, or the the church leaders sort of gathered together and I got to speak to them about a sort of a myth mission theology.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_04: And quite often I I speak about either kind of arrow up religion or a kind of triune God of grace arrow coming down.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_04: It should be uh under Yeah, there we go.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_04: So on the uh left hand side of the screen, we've got the triune God of grace, the Father sending his son by the Spirit into the world, making the world.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_04: It's it's a God of grace outpoured, and from fullness we participate with the Son in his mission to the world.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_04: And the risen Christ in John Twenty says, as the Father has sent me, so I send you and breathes the Spirit on them to commission and authorize them.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_04: And so it's it's very much a sort of a down and out mission with Christ.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_04: We we offer the Father's gift to the world.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_04: On the right hand side, there's just God in the abstract, um, who is pure demand.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_04: And what mission looks like on that kind of uh understanding is basically we hold our nose, go out into the world, and try and grab a few people and sort of get them beamed up.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_04: Um on the next slide, um I I talk about um DL Moody, uh is the famous evangelist who said, I look upon this world as a wrecked vessel.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_04: God has said to me, Moody, save all you can.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_04: Um Moody's getting a bit of a kicking tonight, but I do quite like Dwight Moody.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_04: But the these two statements I think he um have have not been very helpful.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_04: And it's the whole, it's the Titanic going down thing.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_04: Uh which I still believe like the world is lost, and people desperately need Christ, and there is a lost eternity ahead, and we desperately need to see people one and saved for Christ.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_04: But it's it's not that the world is is going down and we need to get people up um to the mothership.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_04: It's far more on the next slide.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_04: Here is Jesus in John chapter 20, as the Father has sent me, I am sending you.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_04: And so it it just seems to me that um you could do the exact same evening event, let's say.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_04: And um, yeah.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_04: You could um you could have the businessman coming in and you could have the interview, um but you could you could do it as a kind of a bait and switch thing where it's like, okay, um it'll be razumataz, there'll be good music, there'll be an interesting thing, and then you get them with the hook.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_04: And then it it's like, ah, lock the doors.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_04: Glenn's gonna Glenn's gonna give a gospel talk.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_04: Not as though the gospel talk is bread, but a as though it's the hook, you know.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_04: And s the all the entertainment is bait.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_04: And then what you really want to do is just talk to the non-Christians in the room and get them to make a decision for Jesus.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_04: And you're n you you're not really speaking to the Christians in the room at all.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_04: You've divided the room into those who have made a decision for Jesus and you forget about them, and then you just aim everything at those who have yet to make a decision for Christ.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_04: And I think those who come can feel that.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_04: I think they can feel the bait and switchedness of it all.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_04: As opposed to you could run the exact same evening, really, and you have the same businessman, and he talks about his life in Christ and the challenges he faces in the business world, and the Christians are getting fed.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_04: And the scriptures are still opened, but it's not like we've done it all so that we can, you know, so that Glen Glenn is wheeled in to preach to the non-Christian husband in the back row, but genuinely we're all warming ourselves around the fire of God's love as expressed in the scriptures, and the non-Christian husband in the back row is really welcome to kind of to be a part of this down and out from fullness kind of mission.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_04: And it's I I don't know.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_01: And does does that so those two images, okay?
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_01: So we've got the you know, it's it's an up hour from the world to God is the you know the approach to mission that we're saying we don't want to go with.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_01: The approach to mission we do want to go in go with is the Father sending the Son in the power of the Spirit, and then the Son um commissioning this this the church in that same spirit.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_01: Now that's obviously those are diagrams to show us a theology of mission and we are then in in being involved in what God is doing through the gospel by the Spirit in the church, right?
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_01: We are involved in that.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_01: I suppose the challenge is most of the the missionary preparation or whatever that's happening is happening not with diagrams showing this is what God's doing in the world and this is an overview of what we are trying to do.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_01: They're diagrams which are about hey, non-Christian, this is your place right now, and this is what you need to do or decide to do in order to get into the right place, which is where the rest of us are.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_01: So the entire the kind of the the diagrammatic approach is out completely outward facing, yes, because no one, if you've got someone like Bridge to Life, no one who's already within the church needs to hear the bridge to life.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_01: Totally irrelevant to them because you know they're part of the church, they're saved already.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, bridge bridge to life quickly for people.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_01: So bridge to life, you basically just draw um two kind of cliffs.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um on one side is God, and on the other side is uh man or us, and then in the middle is this kind of completely um unbridgeable chasm, which is sin.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_01: And so how does uh man who is separated from God by his sin get to God?
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_01: And he tries through his you know religiosity and through everything else to kind of bridge the gap, but it's never gonna be enough.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_01: And so the only way for the bridge to be uh created is by Jesus comes and dies in the middle, and then you are invited to make a decision and to cross over and join God.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_01: And the challenge with that kind of view is that it's so it's so thin and theologically and it's so uh so simplified that it means that the real question is you and your decision.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, in one sense, you're over a barrel to an extent because you've just been told if you don't make the right decision, you'll stay there on the other side, separated from God in your sin.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_01: Even though actually sin is just this thing between you, right?
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_01: So from I I suppose people are very aware of those kind of diagrams and those kinds of pictures that you can draw to try to explain some theological situation, whereas I I'm not sure we when it comes to evangelism, we're as conscious of okay, so what is this mission that we are on?
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_01: What is the thing that is driving us out into the world to go and and preach the gospel?
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_01: Is it just I've learned some you know some simple diagrams?
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um that's available to bridge to life, but I've just learned the diagram and I now go and do that to a person.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_04: And have have you seen the extensions of the bridge to life diagram?
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_04: Like, like so people say there's there's us and there's God, but these days no one is on the precipice, like looking across the chasm, thinking, how do I get to God?
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_04: They are so far back over here, and actually there are all these barriers in the way, and one of them is you know, Christianity is boring, it's irrelevant, it's untrue.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_04: And so what mission is about is like meeting people all the way back here and helping them to get over the boring hurdle.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_04: Well, we're not boring, you know.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_04: Our bacon sandwiches are jazz and jazz carrots.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_04: And when it's not irrelevant, we have views about Brexit.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_01: And no one putting on in the church and deciding to do a Brexit-themed evangelistic mission of I've not seen it, but we're we're using models from way pre-2016.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_04: We're not just we're not boring and we're not irrelevant and we're not untrue.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_04: And then we get people, and and the whole thing is about the sinner's progress towards God.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_04: Rather, what about God's progress towards the sinner?
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_04: Which which again it's it's it's a different, you know, it's it's a horizontal rather than vertical thing, but it's exactly the the arrow issue.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_04: Mission is surely the overflow of God by his spirit sends his son who he bridges the chasm.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_04: Like, you know, bridge the chasm with your choice.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_04: You know, Christ bridges the chasm.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_04: He comes and plucks plucks sinners like by the scruff of the neck, hoits them on his shoulder, and marches them home.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_04: Luke 15 style.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_04: You know.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_04: And like what would a mission what would a mission strategy look like that really took that seriously?
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_04: I think what it would what it would do is it was from from a fullness of our life in Christ.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_04: Not not because we're empty and we need non-Christians to fill our pews, but because we're full and we can't help but speak of what we heard of, we actually build up God's people.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, evangelism is building the church.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_04: We often think evangelism is leaving the church behind, going out into the world and yorking people into the church, and you've got to really sugarcoat the invitation.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_04: But what if what if it's literally building the church?
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_04: And then you you get a very different thing.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_01: And the other thing where it becomes, you know, resources for evangelism.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, as someone who's been involved for most of my adult life in creating resources for the church to use in terms of evangelism, I'm I'm very aware of the value that those things can have.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_01: The the challenge though is that w if if our starting point is the non-Christian, they need to be put in a position to make a decision for Christ.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_01: And in order to put them in that position to make a decision for Christ, I need some resources.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_01: I need whatever, I need to know how to draw the diagram, or I need to know the words, or I need to know a little method that I can practice with a Christian friend before I then go and do that thing for the non-Christian.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_01: And so it seems like both of these things are entirely I mean, people's hearts are clearly involved, right?
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_01: But none of the preparation needs to go through your heart.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_01: They need to make a decision.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it's obvious once you show them a diagram, they ought to be on this side.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_01: So just make the decision, pray the prayer, take the, you know, whatever it is, um, make the choice, right?
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_01: And you need some tools, some resources to be able to present them with the choice.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_01: Properly articulate that to them.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_01: And at no point does anyone have to be engaged with their, you know, all their heart, all their mind, all their body, and all their soul.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's just like, well, there are the people who are gonna go to hell.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_01: And they will, right?
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_01: But they're the people who are gonna go to hell, and you need some tools to go and stop them from going.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_01: So here's the tool, and then go and use the tool.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, yeah.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_01: And you think, well, we have a personal God, a tri-personal God who is full of love, is defined by love, and is sending his, you know, the father sends the son in love, the son loves the world, and so he sacrifices himself for it, and he loves to pour out his spirit, and it's an entirely different thing than what can often feel quite mechanistic or or quite um methodological.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah, yeah.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_01: And and I think though those are the issues where in just l doing those things, you can get to the end of it and go, Oh my goodness, wasn't that exhausting?
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_01: And aren't we glad we got it got through it?
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_01: And yet, were your heart breaking for the people that you for the lost, you know, were there you know, in in what sense was this a fully a fully human enterprise?
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: Prize because it it it moved the people so much that they went out.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um strikes me that you know these things doing these kind of mission events like a mission week or a weekend or whatever, they're they're very resource intensive as well, aren't they?
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_02: On in on people in terms of how exhausted they are, the money it costs.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_02: But, you know, you said earlier, Glenn, about often some of these things can be aimed purely at the the non-Christian, as if there's nothing to be said.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_02: Whereas actually, why not feed the Christian and say, you know, here's the non the non-Christians in the room.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_02: But they're all kind of drinking in of what's going on around them.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_02: So if someone said, Well, you know, why don't we just do that?
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_02: But why don't we do an event like that every week?
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_02: You'd go, Well, that's crazy.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_02: We couldn't possibly I mean, we tried doing it one week and it was crazy.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_02: We couldn't do this all the time.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_02: But the reality is we do that every week.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_02: You know we we run precisely an evangelistic event which builds the church and should be open to the outsider, um, points people to Jesus, has something for the Christian.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_02: You do it every Sunday.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, yeah.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_02: And I think I don't know, but particularly in my our circles, I think we are quite kind of like I mean we talk a lot about inviting people to church, but then we think about we we often think you you do it after you've had some evangelistic event, you need to kind of s butter people up a little bit to get them to the church.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_02: And I just you know, I feel maybe I'm kind of challenged on that that maybe it's better just to invite people along to church with you to say come come and see.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_02: You know, come and see.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_01: I think part part of the challenge is that we there was the whole seeker-sensitive movement, which was then every church service is basically oriented to the the non-Christian and nothing can ever be done which would in any way be difficult for someone who wasn't already a Christian to understand or who hadn't been going to church for decades to be able to understand what's going on.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I I suppose in in some of the stuff we've talked about, you know, uh fairly recently on this show is thinking about embracing the weird and not being apologetic about the fact that there is something profoundly spiritual that is happening.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um and you're not gonna necessarily understand what's going on.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and that's fine.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_04: And I think we've had we've had good experiences of that at all Souls Eastbourne.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_04: You know, our our kind of passion for life, the the big thing we did was we put on guest Sundays, and guests came.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_04: I went up and spoke for two Sundays at a London church, and again, the majority of where they invested in for their passion for life outreach was just Sundays, and they got guests along.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_04: And you know, and it is a uh a bit bigger of an ask for people.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, funnily enough, um one of the guys that seemed to come to Christ this last week, um, he did the classic thing on Monday.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_04: He sort of um he felt like he would burst into flames if he went to church, you know.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_04: And the number of people who've said to me, I felt, you know, if I went into church, you know, the the roof would cave in.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_04: I hope you've got you know very strong structures and things like that.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_04: People really do think that that that is a massive barrier.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_04: But I mean the spirit was able to get him over that barrier.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_04: And once he once he was over that barrier and in church, oh my goodness, like there's nothing stopping him now.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_04: Like it's it's he's he's literally home, he's literally where he needs to be now for life to keep on coming to church and and hear of Christ again and again.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_04: And and so we you know, I I understand the stepping stone thing, and I can I I can understand that there I I believe in events, I think events are good, I think that conversion is an event, I think hearing the gospel is an event, um and therefore I'm not anti-events at all.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_04: Um but we've got yeah, as you say, we've got one.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_04: It's called Sunday, and like when you when you s when you say it's an evangelistic event, I wholeheartedly agree.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_04: The trouble is I let I think a lot of people hear evangelistic events and they think, oh then, it's for it's for the outsider, right?
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_04: And there's long been, especially in the UK, this sort of this division, and especially in non-conformist churches, like the morning is for the saints and you get a rich diet of discipleship, and then the evening meeting is the evangelistic one.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_04: But that's where the preacher just hotboxes you and tries to get non-Christians to make a decision.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_04: But what if evangelism is pastoring non-Christians and what if pastoral care is evangelizing Christians?
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_04: You're like, then you kind of cook them with gas.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_04: So it feels like I'm sort of putting myself out of a job as an evangelist here.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_01: Claire's graven, a former evangelist.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_04: No, but I I like I and I love so I'm about to do um two different weeks in Northern Ireland, but I I met with the church leaders beforehand at at both in in uh Belfast and in Colorain, and I kind of laid out this stuff about a kind of a down and out thing, and let's not do the bait and switch thing.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_04: Um but I'm I'm doing nightly talks, and Christians are gonna be there and I hope, you know, bring their unbelieving friends.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_04: Um but it's it's not saying, okay, we'll have a good musical event, and then ha, the hook is Glenn's gonna nab you with a you know a 20-minute talk about making a decision for Jesus.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_04: It's literally where we we literally believe that in a very fractured world with culture wars absolutely tearing us apart and people having no hope, literally no hope in the culture, like the talk is not the bitter pill that you've got to bury in the bacon sandwich.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_04: Like the the talk is literally what people are crying out for.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_04: Meaning is literally what people are are thirsting for and clamoring for, and they're listening to four-hour Joe Rogan podcasts and watching hours-long material on YouTube because they they literally want an overarching cathedral-like vision for life, and we've got it.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_04: And and so it's but it's really getting in our hearts and heads that it's not that we put put on the event and then the the the talk is us trying to grab people, it's all part of offering Jesus, and the world the world desperately needs him.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_04: So if we can think of legitimate and uh appropriate ways of offering Jesus midweek at events, and the church is up for it, go for your life.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_04: Just don't do the bait and switch.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_03: This conversation went out live on our YouTube channel.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_03: You can watch it and all our other conversations at youtube.com forward slash speaklifemedia.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_03: We're on the other social media platforms, just search for Speak Life UK.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_03: That will keep you posted.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_03: And why not join us when we next go live?
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_03: You can also email comments and questions to infospeaklife.org.uk.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_02: SpeakLife is supported entirely by the generosity of people like you, especially through your prayers.
• 29:21
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• 29:30
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• 29:38
  SPEAKER_02: Let's get back to the podcast.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_04: Professor Bart Ehrman.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so you're having uh that was part of an unbelievable debate from with Justin Brierly.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_04: Yes.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_02: Um you've done that now, that's all happened, and it's out now?
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, it came out on Friday afternoon.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_04: So yeah.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_02: So that's on the Unbelievable YouTube channel.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_02: On the unbelievable YouTube channel.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know if we can get a link for that and chuck it in the comments or something, that might be good as well.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_02: So we can look at that.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_02: Because most of the time when people have these debates, there's some kind of question that or you know, idea that's used to kind of get a couple of things.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_01: Usually in a proper debate, isn't it?
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_04: And the uh the topic for debate is Did Christianity give us our values of equality, compassion, and consent?
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_02: Did it?
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_02: Oh great.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_02: Lovely.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, then and Ba Ehrman, um, so Ba Ehrman written forty-odd books and um a professor of New Testament uh studies and uh grew up evangelical fundamentalists, was it Wheaton, was it Moody Bible Institutes, and sort of deconstructed and has continued to deconstruct, but has could interestingly open about certain questions.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_04: And so we we found some uh common ground on the issue of compassion.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_04: Like he he was basically saying, yes, it was the Jesus Revolution that gave us compassion, um, that cultures that were pre-Christian and non-Christian tend to uh value dominance rather than service, and Jesus really did uniquely bring service to the world.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_04: So that was that was an interesting bit of uh agreement.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_04: And then on the issues of equality and consent, um he kind of took things in a uh direction that I don't really talk about in the church in tur in the book, in terms of uh male-female equality, which is an implication of the equality that I talk about in the book, but um not front and center in the kind of equality that that I'm speaking about.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_04: So, yeah, we had we had some disagreements, and I called him a creationist, so you know that was that was fun.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_02: So we've uh we've got the link for that down in the comments now.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_02: So do you have a look?
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_02: I think we've got a clip from it as well.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_02: So should we have a look at a clip?
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_00: And if you look at the history of Christianity, I don't think anyone would look at the history of Christianity through late antiquity or the Middle Ages into the Reformation and would think that Christianity supported the equality for all human beings.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_00: They simply didn't.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_00: It's not until the Enlightenment that that comes about.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_00: And the the people who developed this in the Enlightenment were not always Christians.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, most of them weren't uh Christian in any sense that you would recognize.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_04: Did these ideas come from the Enlightenment?
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_04: I tend to think that that's more a creationist narrative that sort of out of nowhere has come these ideas of equality without without a backstory.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_04: And I I I would just encourage people to be to be more evolutionary in their in their thinking, in a theistic sense, that actually what was developed through the Enlightenment and on into the modern world were foundationally Christian views that I don't think you would get without those Christian foundations.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_04: There it is.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_04: So um yeah, it it's that there's an article actually, um Thomas, if you could also put into the comments um I've just um had an article published for the Gospel Coalition um about how the secular historical story is basically uh in your face secularists.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_04: I'm not in charge of the headlines.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_04: Okay.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_04: But uh no, this is this is a new one.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_04: This is a this is a new one.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_04: Um all about how I I believe I believe in historical evolution from the the there was the one revolution in the first century, the the Jesus revolution, and every other revolution that we think of is actually a a ripple out of the the Great Revolution of Christ.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_04: And so the the scientific revolution is really an evolution of how Christian natural philosophers broke things away from the Greek mindset, and the Enlightenment is is how a whole bunch of philosophers were using absolutely terms that were taken from medieval Christendom and actually developing them.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_04: So I think I think a modern secularist, and I and I think Ba Ehrman in this debate um shares this view that uh really the modern world only got going when we got rid of Christianity, and basically we had the dark ages and then everything was without form and void.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_04: And then God said, Let there be enlightenment, and there was enlightenment, um, which is a six-day creationist kind of you know account of things.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_04: So I I I'm continuing to play with that in my mind, and I've I found it fruitful in the conversation with Bart Ehrman, and yeah, hopefully people can uh think through this fruitfully.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_04: Obviously, that's what the book is all about.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_04: The air we breathe.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_04: It's kind of talking about that that very theistic evolution.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_04: There it is.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_04: There it is.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_04: It is out.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_04: Um well the website says it's the first of June, but you'll be able to get copies earlier than that.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_04: You can you can pre-order it uh online at the moment.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_04: But um yeah, there we go.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_04: Buy my book.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_01: That's the application of most of Glenn's sermons.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_04: Kids need shoes.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_04: They need shoes.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_04: Buy my book.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_02: So do uh well, buy the book and uh go and check the Bart Emin thing, uh the Bart Emer uh debate over on the link that's down there um in the chat.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_02: Um last week we talked about uh Nate and I talked about Mothering Sunday versus Mother's Day, uh which you can go back and check out on our channel from last week.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_02: Um we thought we'd just dip into a couple of comments that people have put since then.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_02: So Phil Griffin said there's obviously a history over the day and even some commercial input, but setting aside a day where you specifically give thanks to your mother, if you can, as well as other times, seems good to me and consistent with honouring one's father and mother.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_02: This then leads to honouring God.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_02: There's also a lot of pastoral angles on the subject.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_02: There's a helpful comment there.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_02: There is a commandment about this, isn't there?
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, exactly.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_02: We didn't really talk about it last time.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_02: Um and then Liz Harmon says, I didn't really know the history of Mothering Sunday or Mother's Day, but do remember as a child in the early 60s that on Mothering Sunday the congregation of our C of E Village Church in West Sussex would exit the church and hold hands around Mother Church.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_02: No one really explained what it was all about, but as kids we liked the break from the normal service.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_01: They held so they they go outside, hold hands, and try and circle the whole building.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_01: I think so.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_02: That sounds like what's she saying there.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_02: That is that's pretty cool.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_02: I like that.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_02: Well, we were saying last at the end of last week, weren't we, that we we're always trying to cut with illustrations for things.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_02: But here's like a real inactivist thing you could do, or whether it was chalking the door and the other things, you know, when we're talking about you guys were talking about ascension uh was it a bit of standing around the physical church holding hands.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_04: It's got to be a new metric for success, I think.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_04: I think how many times can you send your Welby's new just uh the Lambeth Palace will will sort of roll out, you know.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_04: Can you can you encompass your church just by just with your congregation?
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_04: How what percentage of CBT?
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_01: Once you've got enough people to go around the church, if you've got any additional ones, time to plant.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_01: Off you go.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_01: You guys, we don't have to go phone booth.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_01: That's a look.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_01: That's a good one, yeah.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_01: So many, what's it?
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_01: There used to be that thing about as many hands make a house, so many hearts.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_01: That was to make a school.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_01: Ugh, it was so gross.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_01: It was a thing at my school.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_04: All in all, they're just another brick in the wall.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_04: Boom.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_02: So do anyway, do go back and check out the Mothering Sunday video.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_02: Um some good stuff in there.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_01: I I found it all quite interesting.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it felt like people learned something.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_01: Oh well, I certainly learned something.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_01: I think might have been might have been a first.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_02: Um Thomas, have we got anything in the comments from this week?
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, we do, actually.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_03: So we have Rory Martin, who is a friend of the show.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_03: Hey Rory.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_03: I am from Charismatic Quarters, cue the crucifixes and garlic from conservative evangelicals.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_03: What do you have to say about treasure hunting, e.g., cold cool praying for strangers on the street?
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_04: Have you come across that before?
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_04: Um So you you'd have a sort of a prayer meeting in the church and and you'd you'd sort of ask God to show you things about people, and then you go onto the streets and you'd sort of and you you might predict, do you have a back problems, or is your mother in trouble?
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_04: Do I you know do we need to pray for her healing at the moment?
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_04: Or God's told me that who knows, you've just bought a blue car or whatever, whatever it is, um, and people are shocked and stunned.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_04: I I mean I I appreciate the I appreciate the the flow of God's people by the spirit out, you know, into the world.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_04: And I totally believe in sort of what some people call cold contact evangelism.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_04: It doesn't have to be cold though.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_04: Um I would I would want to tie it more though to what the spirit where where we are absolutely certain what the spirit's message is to somebody is what's what the scriptures say.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_04: God so loved the world he gave his one and only son.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_04: As I say that to somebody, I'm a thousand percent certain this is what the spirit is saying to that person.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_04: When I when I go out on a limb and say, Do you have lower back trouble or whatever it is?
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_04: Um, you know, I I'm not saying that the spirit can't say that and people can't know those sorts of things.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_04: Um but I but I think we have the the spirit breathes out a word.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_04: Um and so the the more we tie our evangelism to the word of Christ, um that that's where we can be sure of what God is saying to people.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_01: I I suppose one thing with that is it feels like it it it's it's not this kind of events-based evangelistic strategy in terms of what we're we're talking about with something like a passion for life, where clearly you're you're gathering together the church to put on a series of events.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_01: And obviously, as we've already said, the church has this you know divinely appointed weekly event of of gathering for worship.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_01: I suppose the other thing is though, we're we want to tie the events of Jerusalem two thousand years ago to the the current situation.
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_01: And so the event we're telling you that something has happened.
• 40:26
  unknown: Right?
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_01: We're telling you that an event happened, a thing happened, yeah, and I'm telling you the good news that that event means.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_01: And so so much of it is is is not on whether you know I can create a little event in the street of treasure hunting, or we can create a well you know uh run event within our church in the week.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_01: Or even actually that we are gathering to have a really, really good, excellent Sunday service.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_01: But we are we are people who who live in the light of the events that have already happened.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_01: And and that's just you know, as you say, that that that what is happening to us now and and the events of of history are the ripples of that.
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_01: And so the the Jesus revolution is a is that's the thing I want to be talking about.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_04: Do you know what I mean?
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, and I will say, as a very dry and dusty conservative ev evangelical, I when I go and do like cold contact evangelism, I almost always end up praying with people.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_04: I almost always end up praying about the lower back problem.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_04: Because we get into conversation I'm interested in.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_04: You know, we we were out for for dinner with uh a a friend of ours, and he's much more conservative than he's much more charismatic than than than we are.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_04: Um and his entree with the with the um uh the owner of the restaurants was is there anything we can be praying about?
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_04: And that was actually our way into a conversation.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_04: But like we ended up praying with her just because we're interested in like in her life.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_04: And I've I very rarely actually, whether it's door knocking or like talking to people in the streets, I've very rarely not got into a conversation where you actually pray for the for their lives.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_04: But it's the overarching.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_01: And that's one of the interesting things, you know, with the charismatic thing is that that somehow because you knew something that they hadn't told you, that there is this kind of oh wow, that's you know, that must be amazing, right?
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_01: So now I'm sort of more inclined to believe what you've got to say about you know Jesus God, the Bible, the church, because how did you know that thing?
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, right?
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um and as you say, you you get into in into praying for people when you're doing any kind of evangelistic thing.
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_01: I just come off the back of not just being in Norwich, but three weeks in a row, I have spoken at a men's breakfast.
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_01: Men's breakfasts and me.
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_01: How's your cholesterol?
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, it's great.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_01: So much.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_01: But what what was interesting was was that there was one of them where I was kind of standing at the door and it had been a kind of properly kind of guest breakfast event.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_01: So people have brought their kind of non-Christian friends.
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_01: And as people are leaving, I was thinking, this is kind of awkward for both of us in a weird way, because they might just want to get off and you know, go and do what they're gonna do.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm thinking like I want to say something.
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_01: So as people were leaving, I would literally just say to them, What can I pray for you today?
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_01: Because I obviously had that, you know, because I was the speaker already.
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_01: And it was and it was like the easy thing.
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_01: I'm already on it, yeah.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_01: And so just to literally ask, What can I pray for?
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_01: And that way, I also didn't need to be able to go, is this guy a Christian or a non-Christian?
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_01: Because I'm just saying to all of them, what can I pray for you today?
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_01: And they might say, you know, oh, I'm gonna be taking my kids to the park or something like that.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you know, let me just pray for that.
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_01: You know, like so it just became um a much more sort of obviously spiritual thing without me needing to have you know I like that.
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_02: No something about it.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_02: Thomas, any anything else you wanted to throw away?
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_03: Just another one here from Alan Wichell's howdy lads.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_03: Hey Alan.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_03: Just wanted to pitch in them since Norwich.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_03: Sorry.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_03: Go on.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_03: Oh don't worry.
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_03: Just wanted to pitch in how one of the key dimensions to APFL this year A passion for life.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_04: Yes.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_03: A passion for life brilliant.
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_03: I thought it was a football club for a second.
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_03: Was to begin a culture shift in churches moving from just mission events towards strengthening prop personal evangelism.
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_04: Yes.
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah there's a whole suite of resources that people can uh check out on the website as well.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_01: Culture shift and that's that's a big hard tricky thing to do.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_01: Like you need to keep going with those sorts of things if you're going to change a culture.
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_02: Well uh one of the things we've been looking at uh over the last five or six weeks now has been the Apostles Creed and we've uh got through to the kind of the last part now I think this is our last one isn't it um and so uh let me read it from the beginning again as we've done each time um before we kind of get onto this last section just to kind of tee up where we are give it some context so it begins I believe in God the Father Almighty creator of heaven and earth I believe in Jesus Christ his only son our Lord who was conceived by the Holy Spirit born of the Virgin Mary suffered under Pontius Pilate was crucified died and was buried he descended to the dead on the third day he rose again he ascended into heaven he is seated at the right hand of the Father and he will come to judge the living and the dead I believe in the Holy Spirit the Holy Catholic Church the communion of saints the forgiveness of sins the resurrection of the body and the life everlasting Amen there we go those last three lines or four if you count the Amen the forgiveness of sins the resurrection of the body and the life everlasting that we're kind of focusing in on today.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_04: Hmm so I know Glenn you had something to say about forgiveness of sins and the resurrection of the body yeah it's it's I mean I mean the resurrection of the body is brilliant and we'll we'll get into that but just putting together the moral dimension and the the life dimension.
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_04: I think that there are sort of church and Christian traditions that are that very much focus on the fact of we all die but Christ killed death by dying and gives us incorruptible immortality and and I think that that was a you know massive theme in in the early church and it's a massive theme in Eastern Orthodoxy for instance Christ kills death by dying and and and lives to make us alive.
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_04: It's the the life thing.
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_04: But there's also the moral dimension of things like why did Jesus die?
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_04: Did he die to kill death by dying?
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_04: Did he die to bear the weight of our sins in our place as our penal substitutionary atonement and like yes he did because sin and death are just so intertwined that of course the wages of sin is death because sin is anti-life.
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_04: If God is life then to reject God which is sin is to reject life.
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_04: It is death.
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_04: So sin and death are of course like absolute like like two sides of the same coin therefore redemption is going to be both forgiveness of sins and resurrection from the dead it's kind of and I think it's unfortunate that that different sort of church traditions tend to lean one way or another.
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_04: And if you're into Christus Victor right this this uh account of what happened at the cross and it's just Jesus defeats death and brings about immortality and people are like yeah that's my model of atonement and then on the other side people are like no it's penal substitutionary atonements that you know Jesus bears our hell in our place and these people often don't talk to one another and like right there in the middle of in the middle of the creed as as you come to its conclusion it's just like the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the dead it's both together.
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_04: I love it.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_02: I really like I mean I I think the resurrection of the body bit there I mean one of the things I that we often seem to um be quite light on is that a lot of people seem to talk about we will die and then we will go to heaven and be with Jesus forever almost and and like that's the end of the story and it's almost like well that's almost like you're kind of temporary that's the temporary holding zone until new creation and new physical bodies and I think you know even amongst people who've been Christians for a long time I think either there's sometimes there's an unawareness of that or just it's certainly there's not an emphasis on it.
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_02: But the fact that you know the the large majority of our time with the Lord is going to be as physical beings living in a restored world.
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_02: So this world restored renewed right as if it you know like it is now but untainted by sin.
• 49:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yes um whatever that will yeah look like I can't quite comprehend.
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah um you know and you know Paul talks about being you know changed in the twinkl twinkling of an eye um and you know just as Jesus is a he's a type of you know for our bodies isn't he?
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_02: He's the first fruit.
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_02: So if Jesus has a resurrection body we will have that resurrection body as well but you know there'll be a point where we're unclothed and we're with the Lord and then eventually at some point when Jesus returns and the dead rise we'll be clothed again with flesh and that's kind of where I mean that I can't remember where there's there's that tension isn't there of kind of that is a good thing to be with the Lord but we're unclothed.
• 50:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yes we're out of the body away from the body yeah yeah at the beginning yeah but we long to be back in the body and you know that's what it's aiming towards and I just I think it's just really interesting that at least in our circles we don't seem to have much of a we don't we just don't talk about that really at all.
• 50:31
  SPEAKER_04: Barely I mean we give it lip service probably when we talk have funerals and you know um but even at funerals this is like w when we've been there ten thousand years bright shining as the sun it's like I think we'll be here by then in ten thousand years time.
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_04: When we've been here 10,000 years you know it's the resurrection of the flesh it's just so it's so unique as well.
• 50:54
  SPEAKER_04: You know we've we've been talking at a at a many points when we've looked at the creed about how unique the creed is and how unique Christianity is and one of the unique things is there is literally no hope outside of Jesus.
• 51:06
  SPEAKER_04: And that might sound like a bigoted fundamentalism but it's like no it's it's it's genuinely just do a comparative religion look at all look at all the different philosophies in the world no one else has hope for these bodies in this world no one yeah it's the only like the your only shot at singing forever.
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_04: You know you're you're only shot at having vocal cords that will go on at your only shot at embracing your loved ones embracing Christ um at at the end of all things is is the Jesus thing.
• 51:36
  SPEAKER_01: I mean because it is so nuts the resurrection of the flesh like we all know what flesh is like like after a couple of days very smelly it's like no it has eternal incorruptible immortal future really yeah oh yeah and the the passage that we looked at again so John 20 and um Jesus coming to the disciples between his encounter with Mary and um him speaking to Thomas and there's two occasions in which he says you know peace be with you and as he breathes on them the Holy Spirit and so here's the risen Jesus and he says okay peace is yours because you know you have forgiveness of sins right you are the the the the existential issue of sin the the the legal problem which you have as a guilty person in the in before a holy God has been dealt with have peace and he breathes on them receive the Holy Spirit and it's just such a wonderful um kind of fulfillment of as Paul says in in uh 1 Corinthians 15 the first man Adam when he was made right to uh Galatians uh sorry genesis 2 7 the Lord breathed into his nostrils and he became a living being the second man Adam who comes out of the dust to resurrection life breathes on his disciples that they might be full of his life again you just think like that's such a beautiful gospel redemptive theme that you can trace all the way through is this this breath of new life of resurrection life that's coming through that comes from the one who says there is nothing but peace between you and God now because I'm risen.
• 53:43
  SPEAKER_01: Wow there is your s there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus because I am Christ as Victor and so it's exactly as you say that you know forgiveness of sin and the resurrection of the body are are right there together.
• 54:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah yeah um it's such a such a life giving thing you know and um yeah yeah we get to endure that forever.
• 54:10
  SPEAKER_04: One of the other events that was really good last week was we we had a grave talk which like apparently there are these Church of England resources where you get these cards that help you talk about your mortality and help you talk about like have you thought about would you like to be cremated or would you like to be buried and things like that.
• 54:25
  SPEAKER_04: And you you actually invite people and because the card is there and it must be you know like read out it's it's kind of it gets people to talk about things they wouldn't ordinarily talk about.
• 54:35
  SPEAKER_04: And I think the room was pretty universally Christian um for for that event but that didn't mean that the Christians in the in that room really had a con conception of what we're talking about here the resurrection of the of the flesh the life of the world to come it was all very much I'm not sure we'd recognize one another will we?
• 54:56
  SPEAKER_04: It'll just be a union of souls won't it and and like and and when I sort of majored on the tomb is empty people like well so and and to be honest that that was me as well you know like the tomb is empty what what does that mean?
• 55:09
  SPEAKER_04: Well what it what it means is that Christ is pioneering a path through death and out the other side so that the body that went into the tomb comes out glorified which means the world will go to death but come out glorified and there will be life of the world to come and it will be feasting joy and it will be just like what the gospels say life is like after Jesus rose from the dead.
• 55:31
  SPEAKER_04: He goes for long country walks with his friends, barbecues on the beach, fishing with his mates, tear filled reunions it's basically a men's project I think it will be co-educational But yeah it's I mean that's the that's the life of the world to come you know and it's like there's a um there's a song by Arcade Fire and um it's it's semi-blasphemous but I'll but I'll say it anyway.
• 56:03
  SPEAKER_04: You mean semi-blasphemous well I i is it a prayer or is it not?
• 56:08
  SPEAKER_04: Because he says the the song is called afterlife and it says afterlife oh my god what an awful word right and I I think actually Christians can agree like the word afterlife horrible horrendous totally anti-Christian like we don't believe in the afterlife like we are we are pre-life now what do we believe in the life of the world to come like we don't we're not even at life yet you know that's what's coming yeah and it makes a huge difference as well like the the physical resurrection of the body you know is I think it's just an it's a it's a it's a um it's a comfort for us as well when people we know pass away.
• 56:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah you know um and again it's not just oh they're up there now kind of thing you know looking down on us but there is a kind of there will be a physical you know reunion and people we know who have particularly people we know who have died um uh in ways w that have you know been very hard on their bodies you know um yeah you know I think there there you know someone said to me the other day you know it's the that you know you rest in peace rise in glory you know and it is that rising in a glorified body that even though you may watch people get very very ill and wither away um you know that there is going to be a restoration and you know I think that's a great encouragement in the face of um bereavement as well so Amen Amen so we've uh yeah there we are we've kind of been all through the creed there I hope you've found that helpful if you've you know if you've not seen all the other bits on the creed do check that over the last kind of six weeks or so um because we have a little bit on the creed at the end of each one so you can get the whole thing there.
• 58:00
  SPEAKER_02: And uh yeah thanks for chatting tonight guys it's been good I hope you guys have found it helpful at home well there we go it's now time for the final musings.
• 58:14
  SPEAKER_05: It's the final musings well I'm joined with Paul Feasy who is one of the proper presenters of this show.
• 58:27
  SPEAKER_03: How are you doing Paul?
• 58:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah not too bad thanks been a while I think this is I've had about four weeks where I've not been here for the recording of the the podcast just through various things.
• 58:36
  SPEAKER_03: Well it's it's gonna be all the better for your return I think Well I don't know about that.
• 58:40
  SPEAKER_02: You're very kind to say so but we'll see we'll see won't we?
• 58:43
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 58:44
  SPEAKER_03: Yes so it's been eighteen hours about eighteen hours since you had the conversation with Glenn and Nate.
• 58:51
  SPEAKER_03: Do you have any uh final thoughts now you've slept on it?
• 58:56
  SPEAKER_02: I mean I was thinking to myself you know we have sort of fifty two weeks in a year you know if you have one service on a Sunday you've got fifty two evangelistic events you can invite people to every year which is pretty good and if you've got more than that then obviously you're you know kind of quids in on that front really.
• 59:12
  SPEAKER_02: And yeah maybe there's still a place then for those mission weeks and particular events and I guess if you're gonna do that on top of church um I I guess you've maybe it's just worth thinking about what kind of Glenn said about is it a bait and switch.
• 59:27
  SPEAKER_02: Is it when you run a um I don't know a a jazz cafe evening for example is it that we think the jazz is the good stuff to get people in and then aha got you you're in the closet you know yeah it was in the small print on the poster that you will hear a short talk with a small about Jesus.
• 59:46
  SPEAKER_02: Evangelistic talking come to the jazz cafe and we're talking about what was that bit?
• 59:54
  SPEAKER_02: But by the way talk about Jesus but but but jazz cafe or do we believe that actually the the talk itself is the offering of something good as well so it's not just we feel like we're we're we're using it like a bait and switch and so people don't feel like it's a bait and switch.
• 1:00:08
  SPEAKER_03: And the only other thought we had uh when we were discussing it in the the morning actually was that it's actually very evangelistic to be encouraging your fellow brothers and sisters in Christ that to actually to build the church to fill the church with the love of Jesus is evangelistic because it will then equip people to go into their offices and workplaces and and share um share Jesus so yeah we we should never view you know spending time with Christians and building each other up as wasted time.
• 1:00:44
  SPEAKER_03: Oh you know we're just it's too inward looking.
• 1:00:46
  SPEAKER_02: I mean absolutely there's we need to be outward looking but we shouldn't view building up the body as as being non-evangelistic because if the body's healthy it will grow won't it and yeah absolutely and I think you know I think I said when when I talked before about when Libby was unwell in some ways that was just when when the church was supporting us and and through that that was just the church being the church but that in itself was an evangelistic witness to people outside the church you know um you know and that's not a that's not an event we put on um that's just people looking at what the church does and that's effectively I suppose what you're asking people to do when you invite them to Sundays.
• 1:01:31
  SPEAKER_03: Thanks whoever you are wherever you are I'm I'm I'm addressing the audience now speaking I'm speaking to you down the the headphones.
• 1:01:42
  SPEAKER_03: Thanks for listening.
• 1:01:43
  SPEAKER_03: Take care take care