Latest / TIPS Podcast / Just Transition to a Decarbonised Economy for South Africa (JUST SA): Gauteng Edition

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Just Transition to a Decarbonised Economy for South Africa (JUST SA): Gauteng Edition · TIPS Podcast

• 0:03
  SPEAKER_03: Welcome to the Tips Podcast.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_03: I'm your host, Siam Tananyi.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_03: Tips in collaboration with Justice A is conducting training aimed at capacitating provincial and local government officials with the tools and knowledge they need for furthering a green economy and an inclusive just transition.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_03: Today's episode will feature three separate interviews.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_03: We spoke to the participants from the How Train cohort to hear from them their thoughts on the just transition and what they learned from the training.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_03: Tips is focusing on the broader just transition and not just the just energy transition.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_03: This allows us to consider the social, economic, and environmental aspects of this transition.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_03: From our discussions, there's a lot of debate around the just transition, and many municipalities need no training on it.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_02: I am from the South African Local Governments Association at the National Office in Pretoria.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_02: I am a professional environmental scientist, and at Salga, I am in the unit that focuses on climate change, sustainability, disaster management, and fire services.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_02: And one of the most important lessons that you took away from the one of the most important lessons.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_02: I think for me what's really stuck out is how I like the angle that TIPS is taking on speaking about the just transition and not focusing on the just energy transition.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_02: Because I feel like in municipalities, the energy is the biggest issue because it's going to come with the most job losses, the most economic change.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yet it is such a broader issue.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_02: And what I've found is that TIPS is really allowing people to open up their minds with the angle of looking at as a just transition as a whole, to look at the social parts of it, to look at the economic parts of it, but to also focus on the actual environment of it all.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_02: Because that is really the fundamental and the core of this transition.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_02: And what challenges do you pursue like in implementing this just transition that we all want?
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_02: I work with local government, right?
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_02: We as Salga are basically the voice of local government.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_02: So from the interactions that we've had, because it's a new concept, first of all, and it hasn't truly been defined properly, there's a lot of hit and miss, there's a lot of contention with it, and municipalities are really not sure what to do with it at this point.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_02: So what I'm seeing is that they're going to need a whole lot of guidance, a whole lot of training, and to really put people at ease, we need to get, first of all, local government very comfortable with it because they are the direct link to the community.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_02: So if local government is clear on what the just transition is and where it's going, they can set their communities at ease.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_02: And yeah, a lot of planning.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_02: There needs to be solid plans that come with this, and I think that's going to take time.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_02: And my worry is that we don't really have much.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_03: And what you know kind of information do you think is valuable that we're getting from these um discussions and trainings, and as well as the trainings that you have, as well as what kind of valuable information do we need that we are sharing amongst ourselves that needs to go up there and not just say?
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, I think all of it, honestly, but obviously everything has a start.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_02: So I think there just needs to be real awareness raising that's happening and proper marketing of what this is.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_02: Like campaigns need to start happening.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_02: Like how back in the day when HIV and AIDS was a prominent issue in South Africa, there were campaigns around it to really, like everywhere you would turn, you would find it in papers, on the radio, on TV.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_02: We need that sort of intention with this because the changes that are gonna come are gonna be felt by everybody.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_02: So people need to really mentally be made aware because it's really gonna be a mental struggle more than it is like an actual physical struggle.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_03: And are there like any specific, you know, issues related to the judge transition that you think it still needs to be explored even more?
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_03: That we are not exploring enough as organizations that we're missing out on.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_02: For me, I feel like it's the education aspect of it.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_02: The just transition has been a concept that has come about since the early 2000s.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_02: But I don't feel like it's coming up enough in primary schools, high schools, tertiary institutions, because if you get exposed to this at a young age, you grow up knowing like the types of solutions, the types of directions.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_02: It gives like career guidance as well.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_02: I feel like in South Africa, we have a shortage of skills at this point or relevant skills to accommodate this transition.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_02: So if this starts getting cascaded down in schools to all the young people, by the time they get into the working environments, it's going to be like an obvious, um, they're just gonna slip in basically to the jobs that are actually available rather than studying one thing and then having like a high level of unemployment like we have now.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_02: Perfect.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you so much, yeah.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so my name is Nikolisim Kun.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_01: I am from the South African Local Government Association.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_01: So, SARCAS is an association that represents the interests of local government.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_01: So I am in the economic development and investments portfolio.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_01: And primarily what we do is to support uh municipalities with respect to building a conducive business climate and supporting investment attraction and retention, and we do destroy a range of interventions, including training and also developing tools for municipalities as well as peer learning exchanges amongst our members.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_01: So, in essence, that's why I understand what they're trying to talk about.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_03: Boris, can you please tell us uh what are the important lessons that you took out in these two days during the training?
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so there are a number of them, but I think in particular is around the fact that with just transition, it's not something that you know is on the shoulders of those who are in the space of environmental management and sustainability, but that ultimately just about everyone should play a part, uh be it you are at infrastructure, you have human settlements or any other department within a municipality, for instance, because that's the era that I'm most familiar with.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_01: So the fact that it's something that you know must be embedded across the institutions, and that we should not simply think that we don't have any role to play in it.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, myself being an economic development practitioner and having been part of this training, it's been so enlightening in a sense that, you know, yes, I'm not intricately involved in just transmission, but it has got so many implications also for economic development, and hence this has been so valuable for me as well.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_01: So I think this has been for me a major, major lesson.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_03: And do you think there's like potential for collaboration between the type of work that you do and the type of work that TIPS is doing on the green economy and a just transition?
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, I mean, looking at TIPS on a personal level, I only got to know about TIPS at the heart of COVID-19.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_01: And that's why they I mean, it was because of the excellent publications that they were putting out during COVID-19 in terms of the trends and what was happening and what lied ahead.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_01: So that's when I really got to pay attention to the work of Node TIPS does.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_01: And certainly there is that room for collaboration, looking at the fact that with TIPS, uh, looking at what they are focusing on, it is an area of common interest with local government because they have become this think tank on matters of industrial policy and also now you know just transition and climate change.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, with government now moving firmly on the trajectory of ensuring that we can build a greener future, I think uh we can definitely leverage on the expertise and the networks that teams have been able to create and for us to also benefit out of that.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_01: So definitely they use the group for collaboration.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_03: You know, so what do you think are the challenges?
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_03: Do you know, do we foresee in future when it comes to implementing this just transition?
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_03: It seems now that we're having this conversation and there's a lot of awareness about the just transition and a green economy, climate change, etc.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_03: But what are these challenges that are in the way of a just transition?
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_01: Look, I think with any change, because I mean with just transition, it is a seismic shift from the way that we've been doing things.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_01: So any change, there's always going to be a pushback.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_01: You're always going to have interest groups that want to serve their own interests.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_01: You will always also have uh misinformation in terms of just transition.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_01: We're seeing that even globally, it is something that politicians are campaigning on.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_01: But ultimately, it's important that we continue to stick to the science and stick to the facts.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, the trends are there in terms of you know, over the past hundred years, how the climate has been changing and how it's been induced by our own activities as human beings.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_01: So that's going to be a major challenge.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_01: And also just that people tend to resist change in whatever shape or form.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_01: So people, once they become comfortable in a certain way of doing things, uh, change becomes difficult.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_01: So it's about us making sure that we can do it gradually and we can continue to intensify our messaging around the benefits of transitioning into a greener economy.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean, if you look at the history of the world, it's always been evolving.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_01: And this just transition is part of the evolution, and change is imminent, and we've got to just make people understand, you know, that there will be new opportunities that will be brought about by just transition, just like there were new opportunities brought by the different revolutions that we went through.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_01: So that's, I think for me, it's going to be the major challenge.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_01: But we've got to intensify our messaging as government and also, of course, with the assistance of TIPS and you know, continue to educate our people.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, and just lastly, are there any specific areas related to transition and the clean economy that you feel need to be explored in these kinds of trainings?
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_03: Because we have these trainings all over the country.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_03: So, what would you suggest that we explore that wasn't necessarily explored in these past studies?
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_01: I think if the thing's been covered sufficiently, that said, I would say perhaps in the future we can also look at what people themselves can do to contribute to a greener future.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_01: Because ultimately it's upon each and every individual to play their part.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_01: As an example, as someone, uh maybe a property owner, what can you do to, for instance, conserve water, make sure that that is a scarce resource for us as a country?
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_01: And what can you do to make sure that you can protect the environment during later?
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_01: So those small acts, they do make a massive difference, way more than whatever policy can make.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_01: So I think if you can focus on that, you know, try and embed that onto our training program around that people taking charge and making sure that they have this agency themselves to be the change that they want to see.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_01: Because ultimately it's incumbent on all of us as individuals to put an effort and that community will then add up to you know to what's making a massive difference around us protecting our environment and ensuring that we can secure our green future.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_00: So I work for the City of Jobek municipality in group governance and reporting.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_00: I'm part of the team that is responsible for the sustainable services cluster, which has four entities: your City Power, Jobek Water, Pick It Up, and Josh Co.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so what are the most important things or lessons that you took out from the training?
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_00: Whether we like it or not, a transition has to happen.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_00: But I think for me, the complexities of the just element of it is what I find that we're still struggling with, right?
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_00: So obviously, as a province or even a country, we don't live in isolation.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_00: So the world is moving towards integrating renewable energy into the energy systems.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_00: We are also compelled in a way, you know, to ensure that we move with the trend, we incorporate renewable energy.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_00: However, being in a country that is full of inequalities, it is the just principle of it that we need to focus on and ensure that we have policies and implementation plans that support that objective.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_03: And what kind of plans do you have in mind when it comes to implementing the just element?
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_03: What do you think we should be thinking when looking at the just element?
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_00: In what direction should we be going?
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_00: Firstly, I for me, what is important is the people.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_00: Let's not leave anyone behind.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_00: You know, there are vulnerable groups in general in life in terms of societal standing or even the social capital, like your people with disabilities, women, you know, youth, and there's just a whole lot of people that could be left behind if we don't come up with solutions that are people-driven or people-oriented.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_00: We should shy away from making boardroom decisions, you know, and go to the ground and understand the challenges that people face, the social element, how they impact the accessibility, the affordability of energy.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_00: You know, currently already we are struggling with the energy trilemma, we're struggling with access of energy for poor communities and even normal communities, in fact, because the cost of energy keeps increasing.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_00: So if we're moving towards a just energy transition, where we'll be now integrating other sources of energy, we have to look at solutions that address the pain points of the people, of the communities.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_03: And in this training, what opportunities do you think are there for collaboration between governments, municipalities, and organizations like TIPS?
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_00: There is a lot because look at it, from TIPS, we have the research, the knowledge, the expert in different fields, right?
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_00: At government, yes, we have skills, but I think sometimes it is so helpful for people to look at the system as a whole, right, as opposed to the box that you're within.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_00: So from a government perspective, we tend to look at it from strictly a government view, right?
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_00: But when we integrate and collaborate, we are stronger anywhere, and we're able to bring different perspectives that will create the interconnections that are needed to make the system functional, to make the system feasible and acceptable.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and my last question to you are there any specific areas in relation to the just transition in the green economy that you feel like need to be explored further in such kinds of trainings?
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_03: So, for different provinces, what more do you think can be explored?
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_00: So I always say provinces are different.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_00: What Jobek needs and what Eastern Cape needs are totally different, right?
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_00: So the solution shouldn't be a one-blanket solution.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_00: For how thing, let's focus on what is needed in how ten, what are the pain points in how to, right?
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_00: For Eastern Cape, for example, what are the current challenges?
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_00: Because we always talk about opportunity when we speak about just transition, but we don't speak about the risk management part of it, right?
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_00: The business continuity part of it, what are the implications on the smaller municipalities in terms of revenue collection and things like that, you know.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_00: So for me, let the solutions be contextualized.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_00: For how to contextualize it according to the ecosystem in the province, for the other provinces also contextualize them because if you want to buy-in from the people, you have to sell the value proposition to show how your solution removes the issues or the pains that they're facing.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_00: Because change is about behavior more than anything.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_00: So if my behavior aligns with the objectives that the country wants to see, then it's easier to remove resistance.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_00: So I think we need to talk about risk management more.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_00: You know, for every opportunity, there's always a risk.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_00: Why are we not speaking about that?
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_00: What does the change mean?
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_00: So for a province like Houdin, we could need radical change, but for a province like Cazaran or Eastern Cape or Northwest, we would need incremental transformation, incremental transition.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, I think we need to speak about the context and the risk management part of it.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_03: With the Just Transition, everyone in both departments of municipalities need to be involved because the just transition has a big impact on economic development.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_03: History shows that change is in the right world, and a greener economy will provide new opportunities.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_03: We need to teach people about simple actions they can take, like not littering, saving water, and recycling to help protect the environment.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_03: To our listeners, thank you for listening to this conversation.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_03: Until next time, I'm your host, CM Tan and you are signing out.