Latest / Sorta Sophisticated / Episode 123 - Punk Rock: The Music That Gave Everyone Permission

Transcript

Episode 123 - Punk Rock: The Music That Gave Everyone Permission · Sorta Sophisticated

• 0:00
  Speaker A: Welcome to Sorta Sophisticated with Pete and Amanda. Okay, question.
• 0:06
  Speaker B: I have an answer.
• 0:08
  Speaker A: What's your favorite music genre?
• 0:10
  Speaker B: Pop or country genre?
• 0:13
  Speaker A: Wait, what do you mean? Popper country, like that. Oh, that's your favorite?
• 0:15
  Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah.
• 0:15
  Speaker A: Oh, I thought you were asking between the two. Well, which one? Like you? Just the both.
• 0:19
  Speaker B: I don't know.
• 0:20
  Speaker A: You get in the car right now. What are you gonna listen to? Go. On the way home. Boom.
• 0:22
  Speaker B: Oh, that's not fair. We listen to Christian music because it's the only thing that's okay.
• 0:25
  Speaker A: So Christian music is important?
• 0:26
  Speaker B: Well, it's what is appropriate for little children.
• 0:29
  Speaker A: Oh, God.
• 0:30
  Speaker B: Oh, my God. Me.
• 0:32
  Speaker A: Whatever.
• 0:33
  Speaker B: You gotta take a ride on my honky truck. Yeah, whatever. Come on.
• 0:37
  Speaker A: You gotta learn them while they're young, man. Come on.
• 0:39
  Speaker B: My kids knew all the bad Lizzie, so we do. Like, if I have to pick a other genre for the. Could be like, probably 70s, right? Like 70s. All right, but even then, right?
• 0:50
  Speaker A: Little Rolling Stones, little brown sugar.
• 0:51
  Speaker B: Let's go. Foot loose here. There. Come on.
• 0:54
  Speaker A: Was 80s or Broadway?
• 0:55
  Speaker B: Oh, is it okay, then 80s? I don't know. Whatever.
• 0:58
  Speaker A: You don't even know pop, country or Christian. Okay.
• 1:01
  Speaker B: Or Broadway.
• 1:02
  Speaker A: I'll take it. My whole point of this question is I was listening to SiriusXM radio. Should they be a sponsor, maybe? Drop that. Right. Sponsor.
• 1:11
  Speaker B: Okay. At least just pay for his monthly premium.
• 1:14
  Speaker A: Duh. At least do that. The Ramones came on. Do you know the Ramones? Have you heard of the Ramones? Do you know?
• 1:18
  Speaker B: I only know the Ramones based off of a T shirt.
• 1:20
  Speaker A: Okay.
• 1:20
  Speaker B: They have a black T shirt with a white.
• 1:22
  Speaker A: You know them? Okay.
• 1:23
  Speaker B: Song wise, no.
• 1:24
  Speaker A: Okay, They're. They're punk band. The DJ was saying that apparently 2026. We are celebrating the 50 year anniversary of punk rock. 1976 is when punk hit the scene. And I'm like, all right, well, I like punk. I'm not like a huge punk guy, but like, I like punk. And it's anniversary. So whenever there's an anniversary episode, I'm like, okay, that's sort of serendipitous. So we have to do it. So here we are, we're doing an episode on the history of punk.
• 1:49
  Speaker B: I have a confession. The only thing that I really know about no judgment. Safe Zone, right? Is there's this lady, her name is Lauren, last name, started the P, but she does punk, but sung by a Disney princess.
• 2:01
  Speaker A: Okay. Like on TikTok or whatever.
• 2:03
  Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
• 2:03
  Speaker A: Oh, okay.
• 2:04
  Speaker B: Oh, you're gonna be great for punk songs because of this woman. So Shout out to Lorne.
• 2:09
  Speaker A: Yeah. Is that all we have to do to get famous? What are we? I'm an idiot.
• 2:12
  Speaker B: Then we have to have skill.
• 2:13
  Speaker A: All right, whatever. Official title today, Punk rock. The music that gave everyone permission.
• 2:17
  Speaker B: Cool.
• 2:18
  Speaker A: We're gonna see why. Cause here's our promise today. First, what was happening in rock music, like regular rock music in 1976, and why a bunch of these broken kids looked at it and said, yeah, no thank you, we're out. We don't want to have anything to do with rock music. Thus the invention of punk. Second, how New York and London both gave us punk, but for completely different reasons at exactly the same time. Park that. Third, the Sex Pistols.
• 2:41
  Speaker B: Okay.
• 2:42
  Speaker A: Was it a real rebellion or the greatest publicity stunt in music history? We'll see. That's wild. There's a whole little section there. And finally, why punk's real legacy has nothing to do with their sort of three chord songs that are so famous for and why you're probably living in a world that was built by it without even knowing. So there you go. That's what we're doing. Everything.
• 3:01
  Speaker B: This all seems highly sophisticated to me.
• 3:04
  Speaker A: Listen, if we learn something new, we did our job.
• 3:07
  Speaker B: It's true.
• 3:07
  Speaker A: If we learn something new, if the listeners do something new, so whatever. Like, I like music in general, right? So I'm like, all right, you know what? Let's do punk.
• 3:14
  Speaker B: I'm excited.
• 3:15
  Speaker A: Why not?
• 3:15
  Speaker B: How did it start? Let's go.
• 3:16
  Speaker A: This is what's going to happen. Welcome to sort of sophisticated podcast where culture, curiosity, chaos and punk collide. I'm Pete, that's Amanda. Word of the week.
• 3:25
  Speaker B: Word of the week.
• 3:25
  Speaker A: Okay. Word of the week is pandiculate.
• 3:28
  Speaker B: Pandiculate. Pan.
• 3:30
  Speaker A: Diculate.
• 3:31
  Speaker B: Pan.
• 3:32
  Speaker A: Pan.
• 3:32
  Speaker B: Like a pan.
• 3:33
  Speaker A: Like a frying pan.
• 3:34
  Speaker B: Okay.
• 3:34
  Speaker A: Like Peter Pan.
• 3:34
  Speaker B: Sure.
• 3:35
  Speaker A: I don't know. Pan, pan, meaning universal. Maybe Pan. Okay. Dick. Nothing. Okay. You're gonna slap your forehead there. We all know what that means. And you late. Okay. All right. Pendiculate. It comes from the Latin pendiculari, which means to stretch out or to spread. And that's sort of what. Why are you laughing? Sorry. That's sort of what it still means. It's that. Okay, listen to me. Stop laughing. It is the full body stretch that you do when you first wake up. Do you know when you wake up in the morning, your arms, your legs spread, everything. Right. You pandiculate. My dogs. Your dogs, they do. They pandiculate every morning? Yes. Okay. We're all pandiculators. It's a good Word.
• 4:10
  Speaker B: Isn't it? Isn't it?
• 4:11
  Speaker A: You gotta figure out how to use pandiculate to stretch out or to spread.
• 4:16
  Speaker B: Okay, got it. Okay, got it.
• 4:17
  Speaker A: Are you gonna hold this shit together?
• 4:18
  Speaker B: I got it. Yeah, I got it.
• 4:19
  Speaker A: Okay. If you like what you're listening to Hit. Subscribe, leave us a review, Follow us. Do all the things you need to do. New episodes come out weekly. And we could really use your help to support the show. So here we go. History real quick. Before we can even talk about how punk started, we have to look at what was going on before that. Like, when rock and roll started. Okay, so rock and roll started in the 1950s.
• 4:36
  Speaker B: Yes. Elvis.
• 4:36
  Speaker A: Before that. It was all that big band shit. Whatever. Right? Elvis, Chuck Berry, Little Richard. Right. Short songs, simple chords. Teenagers screaming Beatles. Yes, right. Okay. It was. New parents thought it was stupid. Right. Young kids thought it was awesome. And that's sort of what. That's the deal. 20 years, right?
• 4:54
  Speaker B: I mean, shout out. If you have not watched our episode on.
• 4:57
  Speaker A: Oh, yeah, yeah.
• 4:58
  Speaker B: Elvis.
• 4:58
  Speaker A: Elvis. That was a great one.
• 5:00
  Speaker B: You should go, because this is where.
• 5:01
  Speaker A: Evidently, this is where it all started.
• 5:03
  Speaker B: Got influenced by. Continue.
• 5:05
  Speaker A: Yes, it was an anarchy movement, so bear with me. 1976. Rock then had already gone from sort of. You know, television was already a thing in the 1950s. And so, like, it went from. Yeah, you could watch it on whatever dumb program it was on to, like, this massive spec. Like something that was really taken in. Okay, okay. Think of Led Zeppelin. Right? I think that's probably the best one. One of the biggest bands on the planet. You know? Led Zeppelin?
• 5:27
  Speaker B: Yeah. But is he punk?
• 5:28
  Speaker A: No, I'm talking about rock music only right now.
• 5:30
  Speaker B: Sorry.
• 5:30
  Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, no, it's fine. I'm giving you the rock vibe on why punk started. Yeah, yeah. So bear with me. So it's October 1976. Led Zeppelin puts out a movie called the Song Remains the Same. It's a concert film, but in between songs, every band member gets their own fantasy sequence. So super famous one, Jimmy Page, he's the lead guitarist, climbs this mountain, meets a hermit who turns out to be himself. Jimmy Page. Cause they're all on LSD and doing all their things, right? It's so stupid. But my point of all this is, like, these are the bands that are, like, making it almost impossible for the listeners or the consumers to think that they could do what these people in the bands are doing. Because they made it all about their egos and theatrics. Are you following what I'm trying to explain here or not really.
• 6:17
  Speaker B: Yeah. Is it more for like the people or like up and coming people?
• 6:21
  Speaker A: Up and comers.
• 6:21
  Speaker B: Okay.
• 6:22
  Speaker A: They were rock. By this time, had separated themselves too much from the. From the yeoman, from the regular person. Right, the band. Yes. I don't know if you know the band. Yes. Owner of a Lonely heart. Super famous song. Okay, whatever. They were famous. Yeah. So they did this thing where like, they did this whole concert on ice, like with ice skates and like with capes.
• 6:40
  Speaker B: Right. It was all new next level stuff.
• 6:42
  Speaker A: Right.
• 6:42
  Speaker B: It wasn't just like the Elvis shiny costume.
• 6:45
  Speaker A: So on the one hand you're like, oh my God, that's so awesome. But on the other hand, what I'm trying to explain was sort of like, I love rock music, so I'm not gonna like, shit on rock music. But the whole idea of like making it theatrical was awesome. But I think they were losing a whole subset of kids going like, I'm supposed to be able to like, do this in my garage and get famous. Like you. Like, that's, that's. It's becoming impossible for me to think I can be like one of my idols.
• 7:10
  Speaker B: Yes. Next level.
• 7:11
  Speaker A: That was sort of what was going on. Right.
• 7:14
  Speaker B: But was it so much about, like the theatrics of it or the fact that. Cause like you said, Led Zeppelin, he's like a rock God for lack of a better term. Right.
• 7:21
  Speaker A: Robert Plant.
• 7:22
  Speaker B: So is it more that they were just. They were so unattainable.
• 7:25
  Speaker A: Yes, correct. That's what I'm getting at.
• 7:26
  Speaker B: So like people felt they were so unattainable. And how does punk tie into that?
• 7:31
  Speaker A: Okay, so punk, sort of like it's a rebellion. Yeah, that's exactly how it started. Cause imagine you're 17 years old and your parents hate you and you have no prospects and no connections, and the one thing you love in the world is rock music and you're trying to make it in your garage, like I was saying. But now you're realizing that dream is non existent and your parents are probably right and you're probably fucked. So now what are you supposed to do?
• 7:55
  Speaker B: Create your own genre of music. Evidently you do.
• 7:58
  Speaker A: You stick it to the man. That's exactly what you do. Here we go.
• 8:00
  Speaker B: Well, but there's a person who did this. There wasn't a bunch of kids.
• 8:03
  Speaker A: No, this is a counterculture movement. Yes. Okay, here it is. So. Okay, to be fair, punk really didn't exactly start in 1976. Like, that would be bullshit. It's not like one person started punk. You're Absolutely right. All the ingredients of punk were already in place before that because you already had bands like the Velvet Underground, you had the Stooges, they were super famous. The New York Dolls, like, all these, I don't know, sloppy, gloriously weird bands that mainstream people knew absolutely nothing about. But none of that was coherent. It was all over the place. They all had their unique sound. The Ramones, we're just talking about them super loud, super fast. Patti Smith, she was like a poet who just sort of happened to have a punk rock band in the back, right? Television was the name of another punk rock band. They had all these massive guitar solos, more like blending like punk and jazz. So the only thing that any of these people had in common in 1976 or before 1976 was that, like, they were just different. They were just not rock bands. They were sticking it to the man by not being the same as every rock band.
• 9:03
  Speaker B: Okay?
• 9:03
  Speaker A: Right. But they were way too noisy, they were way too disruptive, they were way too niche. None of it was working. So now enter 1976. And why they say this is the 50 year anniversary is because a bunch of these, like, randos living underground, doing all this, really started to form this movement in New York, of all places, in a dive bar called cbgb. Say that cbgb.
• 9:27
  Speaker B: Cbg.
• 9:28
  Speaker A: Cbgb. Cbgb.
• 9:29
  Speaker B: What is this?
• 9:30
  Speaker A: It's a venue, okay? It's a venue. Cbgb. And it was totally right place, right time, just like everything else that we always talk about. That's exactly how this whole thing worked, right? They just built it from there. So the Ramones were first, and they were sort of the purest version of what you'd call punk. Four guys from Queens, New York, who all took the same stage, last name. They weren't the Ramon they all had.
• 9:49
  Speaker B: They're not related.
• 9:49
  Speaker A: No. Right.
• 9:50
  Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
• 9:51
  Speaker A: So, fun fact. It actually came from a fake name Paul McCartney used to use to check into all his hotels so no one would recognize him. He used the last name Ramon.
• 9:59
  Speaker B: How funny.
• 10:00
  Speaker A: Yeah. So anyway, they all took four different Ramon names. It was like, whatever. Johnny Ramone, all the other ones. You know, they had the leather jackets, that was the ripped jeans, leather jackets. Like, that was the whole fashion that was going on with it. But the idea was they took all the pageantry and pomp out of rock music and strip it back down to basics because everybody could afford ripped jeans and a leather jacket. That's what people had. So it was even the fashion of the common man, so to speak. And the whole idea was Got up on stage, the Ramones just literally were. 1, 2, 3, 4, boom. And they would just, like, rip out a song. And usually their songs were super short, two minutes long. That's sort of it. Like, super. I don't wanna say basic, but.
• 10:42
  Speaker B: Bare bones.
• 10:43
  Speaker A: Yes, bare bones. And their first album comes out in April of 1976.
• 10:46
  Speaker B: Makes sense where we get 1976. That's kind of like our official start date.
• 10:49
  Speaker A: Right. And teenagers go crazy for it. Cause it's the exact opposite of the egocentric music that rock was into.
• 10:57
  Speaker B: Or that became.
• 10:58
  Speaker A: Right, sorry. That rock became. That's much better. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it was sort of like this giant f off to the music industry and made kids believe they had a chance again and they could get back in their garage and get this shit going.
• 11:10
  Speaker B: All right, but you mentioned London. London in New York.
• 11:13
  Speaker A: Yes.
• 11:14
  Speaker B: So obviously something at the exact same time was happening in London.
• 11:16
  Speaker A: Sort of the exact same time. Just 1976. I'm not getting. I'm not getting that crazy. Yeah, yeah. But so London's different. Okay. So American punk came from more like art. That was the whole idea. And I guess you could say, like,
• 11:28
  Speaker B: really, like, boredom underground movement.
• 11:30
  Speaker A: Yeah, it was like boredom of, like, rock and roll music. I'm done with this whole thing. Right. But in England, or I guess I should say Britain, because it was really not just England, punk came from an actual situation. Because in 1976, Britain was a mess and people were pissed off. So in 1976, unemployment was skyrocketing in Britain, More than a million people out of work. A lot of them in their teens and early twenties. Inflation was crazy. Strikes were everywhere. The economy was so bad that in 1976, the government had to go to the International Monetary Fund for an emergency loan. Right before Margie took over.
• 12:00
  Speaker B: Okay.
• 12:01
  Speaker A: Yeah. So it sucked. Right. And totally fun fact. This is where the punk slogan no future came from in Britain. I didn't know that that's the punk slogan, no future. Yeah. So it actually came from a famous punk song by the Sex Pistols called God Save the Queen. Same name as the national anthem. Have you heard God Save the Queen?
• 12:17
  Speaker B: Yes.
• 12:18
  Speaker A: Excellent song. Okay. Yeah. Whole point of that song was like a big fu to, literally, the Queen and to all of England basically telling the country to go to hell. So London, they were pissed. London, it was a very angry movement. America was art and culture and boredom.
• 12:35
  Speaker B: Right.
• 12:36
  Speaker A: Makes sense.
• 12:37
  Speaker B: Yes.
• 12:37
  Speaker A: Yeah. So.
• 12:38
  Speaker B: So it's just coincidental that they both kind of happened.
• 12:40
  Speaker A: Yes, coincidental.
• 12:41
  Speaker B: Movement happened.
• 12:42
  Speaker A: Yes.
• 12:42
  Speaker B: Not influenced by the other.
• 12:43
  Speaker A: Yes, right. But same concept, underly.
• 12:46
  Speaker B: Teenagers wanting something different.
• 12:48
  Speaker A: Yeah, Teenagers wanting something different and being able to realize they could still do it through music.
• 12:54
  Speaker B: Just in a very bare bones way.
• 12:56
  Speaker A: Different way. Okay, Right, right, right, right. So June 4, 1976. So it was at what the Ramones were April. So major. So two months later, the Sex Pistols, who nobody had heard of yet.
• 13:05
  Speaker B: Which is crazy to think, right?
• 13:06
  Speaker A: I know they play in this little place called the Lesser Free Trade hall in Manchester.
• 13:11
  Speaker B: Okay.
• 13:12
  Speaker A: In Manchester. And the rest of the. In England, anyway, is history. In that crowd, the Sex Pistol. Nobody knows who they are. They're playing this little fucking thing, right? Members of the Future Buzzcocks, who were totally massive punk band. Morrissey. You know Morrissey from the Smiths. You know the Smiths? Please tell. Oh, my God. Okay. Anyway, he was in the guys who formed Simply Red, the guys who formed Joy Division. So my point is a bunch of OG Punk bands. Yeah. Not even just punk. I mean, Simply Red and Joy Division, those were like. They ended up being like 80s pop bands. Like, just. It was. Must have been amazing. Out of a couple hundred people sitting in a little club in England and that many different.
• 13:54
  Speaker B: That's your lineup that you get.
• 13:55
  Speaker A: That many people get famous. They're in the crowd. And that many people go and get famous.
• 13:59
  Speaker B: They're on the cusp of something new.
• 14:00
  Speaker A: I mean, I think that's. I think that's crazy. Anyway, so a month later, July 4, 1976. So Sex Pistols, they go on stage in June. July 4, 1976. The Ramones by this time are famous because they released their first album. Three months go by, they fly to London, and the same thing happens. So kids in the crowd literally are watching. And these kids in the crowd form the Clash, which is one of my favorite bands. And the Damned.
• 14:25
  Speaker B: So, like, they were like the. They were in the audience.
• 14:28
  Speaker A: They were in the audience, they heard.
• 14:29
  Speaker B: The Ramones literally got inspired.
• 14:31
  Speaker A: This is my thought. I just named you, okay? Six different. The Buzzcocks, Joy Division, Simply Red, the Smiths. Right. The Dam, the Clash. Like, they are watching these little bands up on stage and they get moved. And these are. My point is, these are the teenagers that literally turned into massive, massive bands. Most of them punk bands, some of them other bands. Do you understand how it started to work, so to speak? It started to all sort of come together.
• 15:00
  Speaker B: It was the catalyst moment.
• 15:01
  Speaker A: Yes, absolutely. That's why they're saying 1976. So fast forward three more months, and the band the Damned released a song called New Rose, which is generally considered the first official British punk single, even though the Sex Pistols were, you know, sang at the venue and everything like that. So then a month later, finally, the Sex Pistols release Anarchy in the uk and that was like their famous song and album. That was just absolutely nuts from there. So from what, the time the Ramones released their first album in the United States in April, to the Sex Pistols doing Anarchy in the usa, that's seven months. That's how fast it went from weirdos underground to this entire brand new genre that rock and roll now had to like literally deal with. Yes.
• 15:41
  Speaker B: So is there anything that we really need to know more about the Sex Pistols? It just sounds like they were the pioneers.
• 15:46
  Speaker A: Well, they were the pioneers in England.
• 15:47
  Speaker B: Yes.
• 15:48
  Speaker A: Right, right. Ramones get it? In America, Sex Pistols get. Oh, I was going to tell you something about Sex Pistols. I was just. The whole publicity stunt thing. Okay, that was. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thank you for reminding me. Okay, so four guys. Sex Pistols.
• 15:58
  Speaker B: Yeah. There's always four guys.
• 15:59
  Speaker A: No, it's five guys.
• 16:00
  Speaker B: No, there's always four.
• 16:01
  Speaker A: No, five guys. Isn't it? Five guys. That's the.
• 16:02
  Speaker B: I mean, that's. Yeah, but it's the Beatles.
• 16:04
  Speaker A: I have an idea. Let's open a place called Four Guys.
• 16:06
  Speaker B: Okay.
• 16:07
  Speaker A: We'll undercut Five Guys by $1 and make the burgers a little smaller.
• 16:10
  Speaker B: Easy to do. You don't need to make it smaller. Five Guys are so expensive. I digress.
• 16:13
  Speaker A: All right, so four. Here we go. Johnny Rotten, Steve Jones, Paul Cook and Glenn Matlock, who a year later gets replaced because nobody cared about Glenn Matlock. With Sid Vicious, okay? He's the guy who got totally famous. But anyway, their whole career, the whole Sex Pistols career, only last a few years and they only made exactly, really, one studio album. Thank you very much. One.
• 16:33
  Speaker B: Sorry, I like your finger. One was going up and I just. What?
• 16:36
  Speaker A: That's it. September 1, 1976. Here's what's going on. This is the whole publicity stunt thing that I was talking about. Well, maybe it is, maybe it isn't. You decide. British TV is airing a show called Today on Thames Television. Dinner time. Kids watching with their parents and everything. Queen was supposed to perform. Queen, like the band, right. They cancel last minute.
• 16:51
  Speaker B: Is this our equivalent of mtv?
• 16:52
  Speaker A: I don't know. This is a show called Today on Fame's television. No, it's probably like a spot on a TV show. Yeah. No, no, no, no. So the Sex Pistols get brought in, in rep for Queen and the host, Bill Grundy. This Guy has to figure out how to interview them and it turns out to be an absolute total shit show. Screaming, cursing. They're talking shit about England, right? Because they're a punk band and they hate. Remember, it's all angry and they're pissed off.
• 17:13
  Speaker B: So it didn't go well and all
• 17:14
  Speaker A: these families are watching with their kids at dinner time. No, Terrible. So the next morning, the front page of the Daily Mirror quotes the Filth and the Fury uproar as viewers jam phone lines to voice their disgust for the Sex Pistols.
• 17:28
  Speaker B: That is quite the headline.
• 17:29
  Speaker A: Right, well, here we go. Local cities start canceling their shows. Their label, Sex Pistols label emi, drops them, so everything goes to hell. Sociologists call it a moral panic where basically society completely freaks out about something and it's just really a symptom of a much bigger problem, which is what was going on in England at the time we just talked about. Right? Duh. But here's sort of like the weird cheeky part. To this day, nobody really knows if that was, like, real or if that was a publicity stunt that just made the Sex Pistols massively more famous.
• 18:02
  Speaker B: Well, but famous in what regard? They only made one album.
• 18:04
  Speaker A: No, but it blew up like crazy.
• 18:05
  Speaker B: I mean, I guess everyone knows their name.
• 18:07
  Speaker A: Yeah. Thank you. So their manager, this guy named Malcolm McLaren, who is affiliated with the whole punk scene in America also, he had basically already figured out that this sort of anger, rage thing would sell massively. So he knew that doing this would make the band bigger. But nobody knows because he never admitted that he, quote, unquote, told him to play it up. Or if, like, Johnny Rotten just grabbed a microphone and was like, just an angry, angry man. So anyway, I would argue it's sort of like, how far do you go to get noticed? Right? How far do you. How far?
• 18:45
  Speaker B: Like, what is it? It's like the saying, no press is bad press, right? If your name is in the headlines, it's in the headlines.
• 18:52
  Speaker A: What is the other one? Any press is good press. I don't know.
• 18:54
  Speaker B: Maybe that's it.
• 18:54
  Speaker A: It's both. It's. They both work. Yeah, this is my point. It's like, I think of. I think of, like, sort of sophisticated. We're supposed to. If we cared enough, like, we should be advertising, we should be publicity stunting, right?
• 19:06
  Speaker B: Sure.
• 19:07
  Speaker A: I mean, we're not. But, like, maybe it would work. Who knows, right? If I. If I was angrier or, like, you know, whatever shit sells like that. That's my point. So anyway, nobody knows. That's how the Sex Pistols Got famous. Who knows? You be good, judge.
• 19:19
  Speaker B: But then how did the punk. Like, I just remember associating punk with.
• 19:24
  Speaker A: You were scared of punk. You were scared of punk, weren't you?
• 19:26
  Speaker B: Well, it was one of those. You don't go down.
• 19:27
  Speaker A: Did you ever date. Did you ever date a punk rocker?
• 19:29
  Speaker B: I knew lots of punk rockers.
• 19:30
  Speaker A: Would your parents let you date a punk rocker?
• 19:32
  Speaker B: I did not date one, but I would go with friends who were punk rockers down to, like the chain reaction area.
• 19:37
  Speaker A: All right, let's go.
• 19:38
  Speaker B: And it was always a little sketch. It felt like. Because you're right, there was a lot of angst and rebellion.
• 19:45
  Speaker A: That was the whole idea.
• 19:46
  Speaker B: But at what point in time? Because I don't like. I don't think the Sex Pistols were known for their mohawks. Like, where did that all come in? Because it was like mohawks, chains, black.
• 19:54
  Speaker A: No, but it all just goes back to nails. All the fashion just goes back to the simplest thing.
• 19:59
  Speaker B: Remember, it was getting away from.
• 20:00
  Speaker A: It was cheap. It was what spotlight. It was what they had available at the time. It was every man. That's all it was. So it was like, just think of what were rock. Think of Queen at the time. Think of like.
• 20:11
  Speaker B: Are you trying to tell me it was like an anti costume while also being.
• 20:13
  Speaker A: Yes, that's exactly. Yes, that's exactly what I'm telling you. That's exactly it. Dude. They were wearing capes on stage. If you were rock musicians or sequins or the leotards, all that crap. So this was just like poor people. That's how it started. Leather jackets, the ripped jeans, whatever you had. Now, I would argue the mohawks and that kind of stuff were a little bit different. I mean, and the black polish. But that's the anger and that's the stick it to the man.
• 20:36
  Speaker B: The rebellion. You were going against whatever the norm was.
• 20:38
  Speaker A: But I would argue that it was an incredible marketing ploy because you knew who liked punk.
• 20:45
  Speaker B: Fair. Yeah. You picked your genre, right. You weren't rock and roll.
• 20:49
  Speaker A: Amen.
• 20:50
  Speaker B: You weren't.
• 20:50
  Speaker A: You picked your genre. They figured out a way to sort of.
• 20:54
  Speaker B: You weren't jazz, you weren't. You are now punk. You lived it. You lived punk, dude.
• 21:00
  Speaker A: When you walk down the street and you. If you were a punk rocker and you saw somebody dress like you, instant credibility. The instant trust symbols. That was it. And if you didn't wear it, you were scared to death or you had nothing to do with them. So, yeah, it's like you had. What is it? Talk. The Talk. Walk the talk. You gotta walk the talk. What are you talking about? Yes. Okay. Anyway, it's a trust symbol. That's all I'm telling you.
• 21:20
  Speaker B: Okay. So now we have kids who are identifying themselves with this music movement, dressing punk. The bands are embracing it. They're creating their own genre and feels. And then what? Like, I mean, I understand why punk is important and history because it was this new movement. But with punk, it feels like there's more to it, right? Like it wasn't just a movement and this genre that came out of it. Maybe I'm wrong, but it's just, like, feel something. Like it revolutionized the music industry somehow. But I don't know.
• 21:50
  Speaker A: Yeah, I would say. I. Well, I mean, each sort of genre does that. Like, that's what sort of makes genre genres, right? As they sort of come out with something new and different. Right. But I think bigger than that is the idea that what punk did, that nobody did before, was they started releasing their own music without any establishments helping them. So in 1977, the Buzzcocks, who you know nothing about, apparently, they record and released their own album called Spiral Scratch on their own record label. No record company, no permission from anybody at all. Just started from nothing and said, we're gonna do it. And so once they did that, I think that's sort of what made punk credible. And like you said, like, legacy building. Like, what did they do different? I think that's it. So all these independent labels started popping up everywhere doing punk rock. I mean, Black Flag, Minor Threat, the Dead Kennedys, all these rock bands releasing all their own shit. Fun fact. There was a band called Fugazi that played in the late 80s all the way through the early 2000s. And their whole shtick was $5 a ticket for their entire career. So if you were going in 1987, you paid $5. If you were going in 2005, you paid $5. The whole point was stick it to the man. I mean, I know I'm a little off track, but what I'm getting at is this whole idea was anybody could do this, access to anybody. We don't need any industry to help support what we're doing. And so I'd argue that is the legacy, or that's sort of what helps really cement them as super different and super avant garde, as Paul would say. Avant garde for the time. It's his favorite word right now.
• 23:34
  Speaker B: It's kind of like punk broke the mold.
• 23:36
  Speaker A: Punk punk, totally broke. So imagine this. Imagine Amanda, you're laying in bed and you're rock music. And you, like, wake up and you pandiculate, and all of a sudden, after you're finished pandiculating, you get out of bed and you're punk music. Yeah, that's what it is. There it is. All right. You went from rock and roll to punk music. We just put in pandiculate.
• 23:57
  Speaker B: Good job. You in.
• 23:57
  Speaker A: Thank you very much. Okay. And the thing is, Amanda, even if you hate, like, punk music. I don't know. I like punk music. But even if you hate every single punk song ever recorded, like, you today are still living in a culture it helped build. Because the whole idea of bypassing institutions and bypassing establishments and publishing yourself, building an audio. We're doing it right now. Like, sort of sophisticated right now. You could argue. I understand. Has nothing to do with punk rock music. But back to my whole point of,
• 24:23
  Speaker B: like, that's more like grassroot movement.
• 24:25
  Speaker A: Yes. We have a microphone. We have the ability to publish. We have all the technology that we need. Here we go. We're doing it. So.
• 24:31
  Speaker B: So tell Rod to dress you with more mohawk and brightly colored shirts.
• 24:36
  Speaker A: And he'd probably look better in a mohawk. He kind of had a mohawk. He sort of had something going on. I should ask him if he's in a punk music.
• 24:42
  Speaker B: Do you.
• 24:42
  Speaker A: Huh?
• 24:42
  Speaker B: Well, I guess we don't really need Rod.
• 24:44
  Speaker A: Oh. Everything.
• 24:44
  Speaker B: Well, and I don't actually know. Maybe. Well, hold on, because back when I was in high school, when malls were a thing.
• 24:50
  Speaker A: Malls are still a thing.
• 24:51
  Speaker B: I mean, kinda. Okay, fine. There's a store called Hot Topic.
• 24:54
  Speaker A: Total punk store. Let's go.
• 24:55
  Speaker B: Right. And, like, it was the store that, like.
• 24:58
  Speaker A: It's still a store.
• 24:59
  Speaker B: Is it still around?
• 24:59
  Speaker A: Yes, it's still around.
• 25:00
  Speaker B: Yes.
• 25:01
  Speaker A: You could totally go to Hot Topic.
• 25:02
  Speaker B: Yes. But that is still a punk. And, like.
• 25:04
  Speaker A: Yes. I mean, yeah, it's got, like.
• 25:06
  Speaker B: And it's more trendy.
• 25:07
  Speaker A: It's like, more mainstream trendy, but I don't care. I think that's a perfect example of how punk is still influencing our culture today. I like that. There you go. What are you gonna do?
• 25:16
  Speaker B: I mean, that was a pretty good, like, throwback to nostalgia with Hot Topic.
• 25:19
  Speaker A: I mean, you can.
• 25:20
  Speaker B: So I really want to jump into fun facts, but was there anything else that you have to accomplish with your promises first? Well, I wasn't counting them off this time.
• 25:26
  Speaker A: Let me go see. I don't even remember all of my promises. Did we do it? What was happening in rock music in 1976? We did it. New York and London both Gave us punk. We got that. Okay. Sex Pistols, we talked all about that. And punk's legacy. Check, check, check, check, check. I think we can do fun Facts.
• 25:41
  Speaker B: Fun Facts. Let's go.
• 25:42
  Speaker A: I think we can.
• 25:42
  Speaker B: I mean, okay. I'm just excited to know Hot Topic exists. I kind of want to go in
• 25:46
  Speaker A: one now and we can listen to punk music.
• 25:47
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 25:47
  Speaker A: Okay. Fun Facts.
• 25:48
  Speaker B: We ready?
• 25:48
  Speaker A: Can we go? Okay. Do you remember cbgb, the name of that club I talked to you about? I said, I have fun fact later. Okay, here we are. So nobody actually knew what it stood for. Do you want to guess?
• 26:00
  Speaker B: GarageBand.
• 26:02
  Speaker A: GarageBand. No, not even close. Oh, I see. GB. Okay. Yeah. No, it stands for country, bluegrass and blues. Country, bluegrass, Blues. Yes. When the owner, Hilly Crystal, opened it in 1973, those were the bands he wanted to attract and book. Country, bluegrass and blues. Didn't happen.
• 26:20
  Speaker B: Clearly not.
• 26:21
  Speaker A: Yeah, no, it's like imagine like, I want to open my pizza place. Yeah, yeah. Only serve hamburgers. Why would you?
• 26:29
  Speaker B: The universe had a different calling, apparently.
• 26:31
  Speaker A: Cbj. You would think he'd rebrand it, but anyway. Okay.
• 26:34
  Speaker B: Maybe that's why it's always just cbgb.
• 26:36
  Speaker A: Cbgb. Yeah. You want to say what it was out loud? Because people be like, fuck, why punk rock be played in here? Okay.
• 26:41
  Speaker B: Number two, they would like anti it. They would boycott it.
• 26:44
  Speaker A: It's actually quite apropos. It's just kind of a funny. Yeah. Okay. Number two, want to guess how much it cost the Ramones to produce that debut album we talked about?
• 26:51
  Speaker B: This is like in the 70s. So 10 grand?
• 26:53
  Speaker A: Yes. Oh, less. Close.
• 26:54
  Speaker B: Oh, less.
• 26:55
  Speaker A: $6,400. They did it in seven days. It's 29 minutes long. Yes, that's it. The longest song even on the whole album is only 2 1/2 minutes long. It took 38 years, but it finally went gold in 2014. Huh, did it.
• 27:10
  Speaker B: That was a big like throwback there.
• 27:11
  Speaker A: They did it. Were they still alive 38 years? Oh, I have no idea. They had to have been, right? I'm hoping. I don't know, maybe how many Ramones are still. Look that up while I'm keep going. How many Ramones are still alive? And give me the names of the four Ramones also. Okay, just interrupt me. Okay, so number three. So Johnny Rotten, the lead string or the Sex Pistols. Okay. Want to know how he got his job? This is kind of weird. So story goes, in 1975, a guy connected to Malcolm McLaurin, the manager guy that we were talking about, sees this 19 year old kid Walking down Kings Road in a Pink Floyd T shirt with I Hate, like, Scotch taped above it. Right. So he's wearing the Pink Floyd T shirt, but then he wrote I Hate on top of it.
• 27:47
  Speaker B: That's funny.
• 27:47
  Speaker A: And Pink Floyd represents the worst of rock music opera. Like, the whole pageantry and the long guitar solos and all the smoke and dope. So it's like super rebel against Pink Floyd. Right? So anyway, he gets invited to meet the band because of that T shirt, auditions for lead vocals, and totally gets a job. And here's the funny part. When he was interviewed decades later about this whole thing, he actually said he loved Pink Floyd and it was a total fucking joke. And he ends up being the lead singer of Sex Pistols because of it. Yes, because who doesn't love Pink Floyd anyway? Okay, Ramones, do you have it?
• 28:20
  Speaker B: I do, but super fun fact, though. So there's Joey, Dee Dee, Johnny, Tommy.
• 28:24
  Speaker A: Yes, there we go.
• 28:25
  Speaker B: You said 2014. They went gold.
• 28:27
  Speaker A: Yes.
• 28:27
  Speaker B: Probably because Tommy was the last Ramone and he died July 11, 2014, from bile duct cancer.
• 28:35
  Speaker A: Oh, yeah.
• 28:36
  Speaker B: So Joey died in 2001 at 49 from lymphatic cancer.
• 28:40
  Speaker A: Okay.
• 28:40
  Speaker B: Dee Dee died 2002, age 50 from a heroin overdose.
• 28:44
  Speaker A: Young.
• 28:45
  Speaker B: And then Johnny died in 2004 at 55 because of prostate cancer. Go figure.
• 28:51
  Speaker A: Wow.
• 28:52
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 28:52
  Speaker A: The Ramones classic band. Okay, shout out to the Ramones. Okay, last one. Finally, the whole Sex Pistol scandal thing we talked about only happened. Are you ready for this? Because of Freddie Mercury's teeth.
• 29:03
  Speaker B: What?
• 29:04
  Speaker A: Remember how I said that Queen was booked and then they got canceled at the last minute? Why'd they cancel? Because apparently Freddie Mercury, Mr. Mouth, needed some special dental surgery because he hadn't been to the dentist in, like, forever.
• 29:18
  Speaker B: Oh, dang.
• 29:18
  Speaker A: And his teeth were pretty fucked up, apparently, so he couldn't sing. So, yeah, literally one of the most theatrical bands in rock music. Queen accidentally launched punk into the mainstream because Freddie Mercury's teeth couldn't show up.
• 29:33
  Speaker B: I mean, you would say that was just the universe creating a moment, that's all.
• 29:37
  Speaker A: You know, every once in a while you have those fun facts where you're just like, I love that. This is one of my top five favorite fun facts. I think, of any episode that is so random and it's so perfect for Freddie Mercury because, you know, he was
• 29:48
  Speaker B: like, that's what he's known for.
• 29:49
  Speaker A: There was so much shit going on in there. Okay. Anyway, that's all I got.
• 29:52
  Speaker B: All right, well, if anybody wants to learn a little bit more about punk, what do we do. Is there a documentary? I mean, you just talked about Freddie Murphy and there's a ton on Queen.
• 29:58
  Speaker A: There is, there is. There's a lot of stuff, yes. But first, just DM us and we'll just tell you everything you need to know. We'll send you fun facts, we'll send you the episode summary. We'll send you articles, we'll do whatever you need. All right, so, yes, here's what I'd say. Start by reading Please Kill me by Legs McNeil and Gillian McCain. That's where I'd start. I know it sounds weird, but bear with me. It's a history of the whole New York punk scene at the time, told entirely by the people who were there on the ground. It is hilarious. It's raunchy. It's everything punk. It is much better than anything at all that Amanda and I talked about on this podcast. Go read it. It's fast. Have fun. If you want to watch something, go find the Filth and the Fury. It's a document. That was the. That was the headline from the Mirror. It's a documentary now of the. Well, the Sex Pistols Tell their whole Story. Okay, I think that's totally worth it. And then if you want the shortest homework assignment in literally sort of sophisticated history, just put on the first Ramones album we just talked about. It's only 29 minutes long. While you're making dinner or something. It'll be over before you finish cooking the chicken. That's all I got. I'm listening to the Ramones tonight when I get home.
• 31:02
  Speaker B: All right, if you don't want to do any of that, just remember these details seem sort of sophisticated. First, even though we're celebrating 50 years, punk didn't actually start on a single day. The ingredients were already there in bands like the Velvet Underground, the Stooges, and the New York dolls. But in 1976.
• 31:19
  Speaker A: Tell me about these stooches. Do you know about these stooches? I love these stooches. No. Okay, sorry, go ahead. In 1976.
• 31:25
  Speaker B: But 1976 is the year it became an actual movie.
• 31:29
  Speaker A: Yes, it did.
• 31:30
  Speaker B: Here and in London. So the Ramones debut album came out in April. The Sex Pistols played at a tiny Manchester show in June, and the Damned released New Roses in October. So seven months, 1976. That's it all started. Second, punk wasn't about being bad at music. It was more about removing the barriers. By 1976, rock had become so big, expensive, and self important that ordinary people felt shut out. So punk became the Answer, Eugenie. Permission or even much talent to make something that mattered.
• 31:59
  Speaker A: That's true. Probably because for every good punk band, there was probably 100 shitty punk bands.
• 32:02
  Speaker B: Fair.
• 32:03
  Speaker A: Right.
• 32:03
  Speaker B: That's why the good ones got elevated. Third, punk originated in both London and New York, but for very different reasons. New York punk was art. It was weird, it was underground. It's kind of like a rebellion against being boring. Whereas British punk was anger. It was rebelling against unemployment, a rigid class system, and a country that had no place for the working class people.
• 32:24
  Speaker A: Yes. That's why Margaret Thatcher hated it so much, because she was trying to fix all that.
• 32:27
  Speaker B: Yeah, she was trying to fix it
• 32:29
  Speaker A: down with you punk bastards.
• 32:31
  Speaker B: And they're like more right. Fourth, the Sex Pistols were both a real rebel and a very well run publicity machine.
• 32:37
  Speaker A: Yes, they were.
• 32:38
  Speaker B: Malcolm McLaren understood that outrage sells. So the interesting question isn't which one it was, it's whether rebellion can stay genuine once people start buying it. And that's the paradox.
• 32:49
  Speaker A: That is. Right? Because, yes, you're sort of you selling out to the man that you didn't want to sell out to. So you go, you bought in.
• 32:55
  Speaker B: I don't know. I don't know.
• 32:57
  Speaker A: It's a little circular. I like that. Okay.
• 32:59
  Speaker B: And finally, punk's real legacy is diy. Independent labels, homemade flyers, thrift store, fashion and event, independent films, and even skate culture.
• 33:10
  Speaker A: Yes. We didn't even talk about skate culture.
• 33:12
  Speaker B: We didn't. But it's all wrapped in there, right?
• 33:13
  Speaker A: But it is. Yes, absolutely.
• 33:15
  Speaker B: Even people who hate the music live in a world where you can publish yourself and build an audience without being picked up by an establishment. And that's the real draw of punk.
• 33:22
  Speaker A: It's the real draw of podcasting too. It is, yes. There you have it. Dear listeners, thank you for that. You nailed that punk rock at 50 years old. Hopefully you learned it wasn't just a bunch of angry kids playing loud and badly. It's actually a fight over who is allowed to make things. Punk was never about the music. It was about the moment somebody looked at three chords and a broken amp and said, I think that's enough. I got someplace to start. If we did our job today, you're walking away a little more aware. Maybe you'll look at the Ramones T shirt a little differently. Or dare I say, maybe you'll finally start that thing you've been waiting to give yourself permission to start. As always, if you like what you just heard, heard hit, subscribe, leave us a review and share it with someone who's been sitting on an idea for way too long. Until next time, stay curious, stay loud, and remember, nobody's coming to give you permission. So go make something, people.