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Process Over Politics: Jack Shitama offers a Better Way to Lead the Church · Future Christian

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  Martha Tatarnic (00:05) This is the Future Christian Podcast, a conversation about church leadership, fresh ideas, and the future of the church. Loren Richmond Jr (00:18) Today, Loren Richmond Jr. is in conversation with Jack Shatama. Jack is the director of the Center for Vital Leadership, which serves the Peninsula Delaware and Baltimore Washington conferences of the United Methodist Church, UMC. He is an ordained UMC minister and the author of four books, Anxious Church, Anxious People, How
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  to Lead Change in an Age of Anxiety, One New Habit, One Big Goal, Change your life in 10 weeks. If you met my family, you'd understand a family systems primer and everyone loves a non-anxious presence. Calm down, grow up and live your best life. Jack and his wife of 44 years, Jody have four children and six grandchildren. Jack is an avid runner and has completed the Baltimore Marathon three times. He occasionally plays guitar and bass in the Jacobs Well band, his church's worship band. He
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  enjoys all kinds of sports, cooking, reading, traveling, and most of all seeing people experience spiritual growth. A reminder before we start today's conversation, please take a moment to subscribe to the podcast, leave a review, and share Future Christian with a friend. Connect with Loren, Martha, and Future Christian on Instagram. Shoot us an email at lauren at resonatemediapro.com with comments, questions, or ideas for future episodes. Your support means a lot to us in making this podcast
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  possible. Loren Richmond Jr (01:57) This is Loren Richmond Jr. and today I'm excited to talk once again with Jack Shatama. Hello and welcome to the show. Jack Shitama (02:06) Thanks, Loren. Good to be with you again. Loren Richmond Jr (02:08) Yeah, I'm looking forward to having this conversation. Jack has been a past guest, I don't know, a couple of times at least, I think, right? So I'll make sure to link those episodes in the show notes. Again, since you've been on, we don't need to go too
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  far in depth on this, but do you want to just share a little bit about your, your background, faith journey, all that stuff? Jack Shitama (02:15) Yeah, I think twice, yeah. Sure, I'm ordained in the United Methodist Church. I served in pastoral ministry for nine years. Then I ran United Methodist Camp and Retreat ministry for 23 years and had been, throughout that time really felt like family systems theory was something that helped me as a leader and as a person. And so I started writing
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  about it back in 2016. I've written a few books on it and do a podcast and just try to apply that, help people apply that. What I like to say is I try to help people lead as a non-anxious presence personally and professionally. So that's kind of my area of focus and it's really just sharing what has been helpful to me. Loren Richmond Jr (03:18) Well, highly recommend the podcast, his podcast, Jack, I always listen and I think it's just like, even if you're saying the same thing over and over
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  again, which you know, you basically are right? Like that's what this is. Like for me, just hearing it in different ways, in different explanations, like I think it's really helped me understand it really well. And Jack always does it in like what your 10, 15 minute episodes. So it's not like a long heart commitment. So I think that's. Jack Shitama (03:29) Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's right. Loren Richmond Jr (03:47) really helpful. I do want to ask this, Jack, this will probably, I don't know if this
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  will air or release by time Lent is over as we are right in the beginning of Lent. What Ash Wednesday as we're recording this was two days ago now or something, but I'm thinking about spiritual practices and something again from, I learned from your podcast is the idea of micro habits and like small steps. like something I've tried to do is like sit like I, Jack Shitama (04:00) Two days ago, right? Yeah. Loren Richmond Jr (04:16) I put a Bible in this chair that I'm sitting in. So like what
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  I'm trying to do from my habit for Lent is just grab my Bible and read a chapter of one of the gospels. Like I started like a week prior, so I've got some momentum build up. But talk a little bit, because that's something a question I usually ask, ask is about spiritual practices. But since you're always so good about habit formation and micro goals or what have you, talk real quick about how people can utilize the micro goals or micro steps. to build a good habit, spiritual practice for
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  themselves. Jack Shitama (04:50) Yeah, I mean this is so important for having a thriving spiritual life and as you probably know the hardest part with anything is starting. In fact, ⁓ know, kind of the root and procrastination is that we don't start. We just keep putting it off and putting it off and if you're, you know, if you're like me you procrastinate something and then when you finally start it it's like, this wasn't that bad. ⁓ And so, you know, in habit formation they call it friction.
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  It's the Loren Richmond Jr (04:59) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Jack Shitama (05:19) friction of starting, right? And so if you can just get yourself to start, then ⁓ you then start to develop that habit of starting. And so that's what that micro habit is. When you put that Bible in your chair and you sit down, especially if you're telling yourself, only have to read for a minute, or I don't even have to read, I just have to hold it or whatever, if you get in the habit of doing that, then the reading part
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  becomes easier and easier. And so I think when people are trying to start something, Loren Richmond Jr (05:20) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Jack Shitama (05:48) that ⁓ what they call removing the friction, removing the things that get in the way of actually ⁓ starting that is really important. And then once you have, say, a routine, adding something is really easy because you've already, you just say, okay, after I do this, I'm going to do this. And over time, you just start kind of getting that
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  habit where you can, Loren Richmond Jr (05:53) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Jack Shitama (06:16) you're able to string things together. And so ⁓ I know not everybody's morning person, but you can do this in the evening too. You can have an evening routine. And once you get into that habit, ⁓ you can start to build on that and add thanks to it. Loren Richmond Jr (06:33) What's been so interesting for me, even beyond spiritual practices, Jack, and I suppose I shouldn't get too far into this, but like,
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  I'm just thinking about in my own, some things that I've tried over the last year with, with small, like I use the word small bets. Um, so like I'm trying a small bet with my hair right now, to be frank for listeners, but it's like, it's to the point where it's like, it doesn't seem like it's like, I don't need this. It's like. Jack Shitama (06:55) Hmm? Loren Richmond Jr (07:03) it's just the natural next step, if that makes sense. Jack Shitama (07:06) Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, and I
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  think, so when I, they call it habit stacking. When I do some, when I insert something or add something to a routine, I don't say I gotta do this forever. I just say I'm gonna do this and see how goes and that way you can adjust, you can pivot, you can drop it. And I think that when you tell yourself some, Loren Richmond Jr (07:13) Yeah. Yeah. Jack Shitama (07:34) you got to do something forever or even for a month or three months all of a sudden there are parts of that may start to resist.
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  And ⁓ it's not bad to have a goal, know, so ⁓ if you want to get get through so many books to the Bible or something or whatever that's it's not bad to have a goal. But I've often, I did morning pages for a long time. You know that's a free handwriting and that was part of my morning routine. Loren Richmond Jr (07:44) Yeah. Jack Shitama (08:00) And then at a certain point, I probably did it for a couple years, and at a certain point it was just like, you know what, I'm not getting anything out
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  of this anymore. And I dropped it, you know, it's okay. Loren Richmond Jr (08:06) Hmm. Well, this is a good conversation. um, speaking of, we've, we've already talked a little bit about what I want to have Jack on about, and certainly what he's mentioned in his, in his bio, but, so this is kind of a weird way of going about this conversation, but I was recently reading the book, The Vanishing Church by Ryan Burge, the new, new book that came out from the sociologist of religion, who's really
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  kind of, you know, risen to fame for the last several years, especially for his work. within American Christianity, I think, and the main line. But as I was reading his book, I just couldn't help but think and recognize family systems trends within much of the data that, that Burge was, you know, highlighting. And Jack and I had already scheduled this conversation. So I thought, boy, I really, thought would be interesting to have this conversation framed around, you know, a family systems lens.
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  So. Let me, let me start with this because one of things that I noticed from Burge is that he, he argues that the, the decline of the mainline Protestantism writ large has coincided with rising polarization. So you're a mainline pastor. Do you think that's fair assessment? And if so, like what, what's like the family systems concept going on there? Jack Shitama (09:35) Yeah, so the concept is what, well, Edwin Friedman in Failure of Nerve called it a chronically anxious society. And he was
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  actually built, that was in the mid-90s when he wrote that, and he was actually building on something Murray Bowen talked about, you know, the founder of family systems theory ⁓ as early as the late 60s and early 70s, and that was ⁓ this idea of societal regression. Loren Richmond Jr (10:00) Mm-hmm. Jack Shitama (10:01) And societal regression happens when there's this chronic anxiety in the society and it results in increased polarization. So, a verge I think is right on and we've seen that
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  in nearly every aspect of society, at least in our country, in the US. But I would say most of the world you're seeing that kind of polarization. And what happens is when there's that kind of chronic anxiety, people lose tolerance for ambiguity. It's impossible for many people, if not most people, to allow for difference, to allow for ⁓ the fact that there might not be one right answer. And so people are looking for clear and rigid positions. And so this idea that people have to have that
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  answer creates this kind of polarization and the church Loren Richmond Jr (10:33) Yeah. Jack Shitama (10:59) was not immune to that. In fact, ⁓ I think one episode I did with you is kind of on the United Methodist Church and the split there. ⁓ We split just like every other mainline denomination over human sexuality, and I argue that that was actually an emotional triangle, that the actual anxiety in the church was over this decline of mainline Christianity, and instead of focusing on what
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  that meant, Loren Richmond Jr (11:06) Yes, yes. Jack Shitama (11:26) it was easy to just focus on human sexuality and blame the other side and say, well, if you had the right position, we'd be just fine. And I think as we found ⁓ from every denomination that split has split, now, you know, that wasn't it. That wasn't gonna take care of that. And so, yeah, think Burge is probably right on there in terms of this idea that the middle has just disappeared. Loren Richmond Jr (11:30) Mm-hmm. Yeah.
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  So this leads me to something else that I've been pondering. You mentioned ⁓ Bowen, or not Bowen, Friedman, right? Because he wrote Failure of Nerve. When did he write that? Jack Shitama (12:06) He wrote it in the early to mid 90s. He died in 1996 and then it was published posthumously by, it wasn't even finished, but some of his colleagues and I think his daughter finished it. ⁓ And it's been pretty well widely read and pretty impactful, I think. ⁓ Loren Richmond Jr (12:27) This is what I'm
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  thinking. So Christian Smith, who's another sociologist of religion, I have an interview with him set up. He just published a book somewhat recently, Why Religion Went Obsolete in America or something to that effect. Burge also sort of has a similar timeline of like the 90s, like early 90s being kind of like the tipping point to use like a Malcolm Gladwell terminology of like when things started going downhill. for religion. And I'm thinking about this because again, you mentioned Friedman. If
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  I'm remembering the book correctly, he talks about like his times being like chronically anxious, which well, my goodness, imagine if he lived for today. But I'm wondering like, Jack, do you think like this is just a just a hunch in my and you might disagree, did the fall of the Berlin Wall, so to speak, was that like the hinge point that we're not talking about enough of like, oh, all of sudden, like so many of the things that were religion was doing for America. Jack Shitama (13:06) Mm-hmm,
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  right, right. Loren Richmond Jr (13:26) Stop being necessary, if that makes sense. Jack Shitama (13:30) Yeah, so the fall of the Berlin Wall, ⁓ according to Michael Kerr, so it was actually something else. Let me go back to religion itself. And I ⁓ think that ⁓ for a long time, Christianity in America was an identity. ⁓ But then starting in the 60s, I think, it started to lose its hold on people as an identity. And I think ⁓ Loren Richmond Jr (13:38) Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Jack
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  Shitama (13:59) I don't know Burge talks about identity, this idea that ⁓ this is who I am, I am a Christian, right? And then there are so many other things that took over ⁓ what people could be. I'm a feminist, I'm a ⁓ pro-lifer. Well, pro-lifer is, ⁓ yeah, you could say I'm a Christian and then pro-life is part of that, ⁓ but. Loren Richmond Jr (14:06) Mm-hmm. Right. Right. Jack Shitama (14:26) but that actually starts to take over the identity as opposed to ⁓ being a follower of Jesus. So
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  I think that's one thing, that's one place that Christianity started to lose its hold on people. then this fall of the Berlin Wall, in fact, I think I did a podcast episode on this, the scapegoating one. ⁓ Michael Kerr contends that the US always had to have a scapegoat. Loren Richmond Jr (14:44) Yeah, yeah, that's what I'm thinking. Yeah. Jack Shitama (14:55) an emotional triangle and early on it was indigenous people and slaves, enslaved Africans. And that held even past slavery, right,
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  through Jim Crow. The civil rights era started to upend that. Secondarily, the other scapegoat was women. Feminism started to that, but we still had communism. Loren Richmond Jr (15:09) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Jack Shitama (15:25) And we could still focus on that ⁓ outside threat. what he contends is when the Berlin Wall fell, ⁓ we lost our last scapegoat. And that's when we started to really turn on each other. That's when ⁓ we had nobody else to blame. And so that's when the polarization really got ⁓
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  a lot worse. And I think you can make an argument for that. Certainly time-wise, you start to see how Loren Richmond Jr (15:53) Yeah. Jack Shitama (15:54) that polarization just has gotten worse and worse. Loren Richmond Jr (15:58) Why hasn't like certainly certainly there are some voices in America right now who are trying to make immigrants like the scapegoat, but I don't think like that's really tracked. Is it just because social media has a scapegoating so many things including one
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  another? Jack Shitama (16:15) Yeah, it's too easy because of the polarization to have your own scapegoat, but we don't have a common one. And in fact, it could have been Russia again, it maybe could have been China, but that's not working either. And in fact, Bowen said that this societal regression was going to continue until Loren Richmond Jr (16:21) Uh-huh. Mm. Jack Shitama (16:46) middle part of the 21st century until a major crisis caused us to ⁓ have to to work together. And I'm hoping
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  that major crisis is not a world war. I'm hoping it's not a ⁓ financial disaster like the depression. ⁓ What I'm hoping it is is that climate change gets so bad that we actually have to start to work together to deal with our environment. Loren Richmond Jr (17:05) Mm-hmm. Jack Shitama (17:16) We'll see if Bowen's right on that, but certainly his prediction about societal regression has been on track so far. Loren Richmond Jr (17:25) So why wasn't COVID then that sort of like opportunity to
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  work together? Jack Shitama (17:30) It could have been. Yes, it could have been. And it wasn't. so I think it was a missed opportunity. And I think the polarization in our society was just too strong ⁓ where, ⁓ you know, because ⁓ depending on where you stood on science and on masks and on vaccines and all of those things, Loren Richmond Jr (17:32) Right? Mm-hmm. Jack Shitama (17:58) Those became easy emotional triangles where you focused on them and why the other side was wrong instead of ⁓
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  actually focusing on how we might all get through this together. And maybe leadership had something to do with that too. I don't know. I won't name names, but yeah. Loren Richmond Jr (18:14) Yeah. Jack, your comment on masks makes me think something that I, feel like I repeat on verbatim from hearing it from you so much. Content, not process. That five years ago, the people who were debating masks, using masks. Now we're swearing my masks again, broad brush here feels like the perfect analogy
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  of content, a process versus content. Do you want to talk more about that? Jack Shitama (18:29) Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so the idea that it's process, not content is this idea that we, our emotional reactivity gets us blaming somebody else, arguing with somebody else, ⁓ not taking responsibility for self. And so ⁓ with COVID, ⁓ one of the ways you could take responsibility for self was you could wear a mask, you could isolate, you could ⁓ And that's fine and well and good until you
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  start to tell other people they have to do it. so ⁓ now you can make the case, yeah, it's for the common good that everybody has to do it. But at the same time, because our society is already polarized, as soon as, in this case, it would have been the Biden administration, started to tell states what they had to do, Loren Richmond Jr (19:21) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Jack Shitama (19:43) Well, the focus then became on the mask itself, that's the content, instead of how are people taking
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  responsibility for keeping themselves healthy, keeping their families healthy, keeping their communities healthy. And then the same thing was true for vaccines. so ⁓ I'm not blaming Biden, I'm not blaming Trump. They each had their side. ⁓ Loren Richmond Jr (19:49) Mmm. Right. Jack Shitama (20:11) But I do think this is true of both progressives and conservatives right now. They're trying to demand what other people should do instead of inviting them to think about what the common good is.
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  And we've lost that whole sense of what the common good is. Loren Richmond Jr (20:18) Right. Yeah. Well, that's helpful the way you're framing it because rather than saying like to take care of the common good, you have to wear a mask, which was certainly, I think how it was framed. And certainly I was in agreement with that, but I'm appreciating, I'm appreciating your perspective though, that it might've been more helpful in the long run to say like, Hey, we all need to take care of the
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  common good. Here are some ways you could do that for instance, right? Jack Shitama (20:40) Yeah, was too. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, because one of the things that probably would have happened if that were the case is the people who wore masks would be much less susceptible to COVID and the people who didn't would have been much more susceptible. And we know back then it was a very, it was deadly, you know, in a lot of cases, you know. Loren Richmond Jr (20:54) Okay. Right. Yeah. Well, yeah, I
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  worked in the hospital during like that second COVID wave and it certainly that was, that was the people who we were seeing in the hospital were folks who had resisted getting a vaccine and so forth and whatnot. But it's really interesting to think about again, that process versus content and how It's so much easier just to try to. And then we get into, suppose, a conflict of wills. So talk about that for our audience. Cause I think that's what it became. Right. Jack Shitama (21:42) Mm-hmm,
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  right. Right, right. And that's what just about everything is right now. ⁓ So a conflict of wills occurs when we're talking in family systems terms, when you try to define another person. So what is healthy is to define yourself. This is what I believe. When you start telling other people what they should do, have to do, when you're defining them, ⁓ the automatic response is to push back. ⁓ Loren Richmond Jr (22:04) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Jack Shitama (22:16) And I don't know that any of us are
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  immune to this. And there's a lot of good research that shows when you try to tell somebody what they should do, they not only will push back, they will actually dig in. And I know this personally because when my wife tells me what to do, I don't wanna do it, even if I was gonna do it to begin with. Loren Richmond Jr (22:34) I'm laughing, I'm laughing Jack, cause I just realized this like a few weeks ago where I told my wife, I'm like, I'm having a conflict of wills with my eight year old son.
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  Jack Shitama (22:46) Yeah, right. Loren Richmond Jr (22:51) and I'm still trying to figure out like how to communicate with him so it's not a conflict of wills but I'm like this is what's happening Jack Shitama (22:59) Yeah. Well, and parenting really muddies that because I think you and I had an email exchange about this one time. As a parent, you're still responsible for the care of the child, right? ⁓ And so ⁓ do we really need to keep them from doing that? Are they going to be unsafe or
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  not? I mean, we have to make these discernments. But I think the way Bowen or Friedman would Loren Richmond Jr (23:05) Yeah, I think so. Right. Mm-hmm. Jack Shitama (23:28) put it is ⁓ when you're able to set a healthy boundary with a child ⁓ and say, you I know you don't, you want to do this or don't want, I know you don't want to do this, ⁓ but this is what I'm expecting from you. And if you don't, here's the consequence, right? It's up to you to decide what you want to do, right? And that
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  is the same with an eight year old and it is with a lay leader in a church who's acting up. Loren Richmond Jr (23:33) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Jack Shitama (23:57) you know, or ⁓ you know somebody who's opposing you politically. It's being able to say what you are willing to do and then giving the other person the choice to how they're going to respond. ⁓ The problem is like my problem when I was raising kids was I would get angry and you know if they didn't do it and then as soon as you get angry
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  that's reactivity you lose your moral authority you know and so Loren Richmond Jr (24:22) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, we've kind of gone off on a family systems tangent that I hope is helpful for our listeners. So I'm thinking, could you, you talked about identity, about religious identity. Burge talks about this being increasingly downstream of party affiliation. So again, I'm thinking about from a family systems perspective, like you mentioned, like, you know, in the sixties, one's primarily
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  identity was Jack Shitama (24:29) hehe Loren Richmond Jr (24:53) as a Christian or what have you, like Burge notes, even the title evangelical is becoming less of a religious identity or marker and more of a political marker. So what's happening from like a family systems perspective there? Jack Shitama (25:10) Yeah, so one of the family systems concepts is surrounding togetherness pressure. Togetherness pressure is the ⁓ pressure to conform to the norms and values of the system, of the
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  relationship system. ⁓ what it used to be is ⁓ we had a much larger tent, so to speak. For example, in my denomination, the United Methodist Church, we used to call ourselves a big tent, a large tent. Loren Richmond Jr (25:16) Yeah. Mm-hmm. Jack Shitama (25:39) where you could have lots of, you could have people across the theological and political spectrum. What happens when there's this chronic anxiety and the polarization starts to take place is ⁓ that there's less room for difference. So
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  then identity starts to have litmus tests. And those litmus tests, before they were religious, were political. You know, are you? pro-life or pro-choice? Are ⁓ you pro same-sex marriage or anti same-sex marriage? Those became the litmus tests within Christianity and what that really was was that was politics co-opting our Christian faith because ⁓ Jesus, I think Jesus would say that there was room for us to have Loren Richmond Jr (26:10) Right. Mm-hmm. Jack Shitama (26:37) to have honest
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  discussion about that and to also have humility and say, know, one day we'll stand before God and we'll find out, you know, but let's not, as Matthew says in Matthew 7, let's not judge the other. Let's worry about the plank in our own eye, you know. Oh, awesome. Loren Richmond Jr (26:46) Yeah. Just read that this morning actually from your, from your habits. you know, Burge talks about this purification pressures, this, this chronic anxiety you just named that requires litmus tests. I think
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  what was really shocking for me reading about this is like, he, he describes like through data that like the far edges of right and left are like really the far most vocal and influential. of our political system right now. And he posits that there's a lot more of us actually in the middle, but because of these purification pressures, we feel like we all feel like we have to not just go along, but affirm what they're saying. So how do we get away from that? Like whether it's in society, whether
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  in church, what have you. Jack Shitama (27:46) Yeah, I mean, I think, at least in terms of the society and the political system, I heard what Stephen Dubner's, the Freakonomics podcast episode is probably four or five years ago, but it was on the oligarchy of the political system and how they really benefit from just having two parties and having each other to fight. And what happens then is that you Loren Richmond Jr (27:57) yeah. Okay. Yeah. Jack Shitama (28:15) in the primaries, your
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  more extreme candidates win, right? Because the people with the most passion are at the edges. so your MAGA and your AOCs, they're the ones who are kind of winning, or in New York, know, Mamdani, right? ⁓ And then so when you get to the general election, you don't even have a middle anymore. Loren Richmond Jr (28:19) Mm-hmm. Right, right, right, right. Yeah. Jack Shitama (28:44) And interestingly in the Freakonomics ⁓ episode, what they maintain is that the best way to fight that would be to
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  have ranked choice voting. Because if you have ranked choice voting, it doesn't matter what party you are, the top two or three candidates or whatever, then ⁓ face off in the general election. And that actually benefits the middle. Loren Richmond Jr (28:56) Mm-hmm. Jack Shitama (29:13) more than the way the parties work right now. I think in Christianity it's really, really difficult because I believe that we've been co-opted by the political parties so that even our leadership is, I don't
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  wanna say it, well, yeah, they're more to the edge than they are to the center. And depending on what kind of leader you have, Loren Richmond Jr (29:25) Hmm. Mm-hmm. Jack Shitama (29:41) you may or may not have tolerance for the center. ⁓ And that's, ⁓ you know, I think our bishop tends to allow for people to have differences of opinion. ⁓ But even so, in our area, well, actually in the DC area, we're much more progressive and the Maryland Eastern Shore much more conservative. And so you have
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  to have that allowance. Loren Richmond Jr (29:45) Yeah, yeah. Jack Shitama (30:08) What happens though is that we get so focused on the issues and ⁓ allow the political polarization to take over that we're not able to have conversations based on what we think ⁓ Jesus would want. ⁓ And I think kind of one of the signs I think that you're leading right, you're leading Loren Richmond Jr (30:24) Yeah. Jack Shitama (30:37) properly, correctly is you start to make a lot of people mad at you
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  because ⁓ you're not willing to go either far left or far right. You want to try to find a place in the middle and that even happens in politics these days. People who compromise get castigated for compromising. But it ⁓ makes me think of, I don't know if you've seen the He Gets Us ad campaigns. Loren Richmond Jr (30:41) Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Jack Shitama (31:06) From what I've read, ⁓ the left is suspicious of it because I guess the Hobby Lobby guys got money in there. The right's
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  suspicious of it because it sounds like a liberal message. One of my favorite ones is Jesus was a refugee. mean, yeah. mean, and that, when we start to look at things from a faith angle and look at, what does our faith require us to do outside of politics? ⁓ Loren Richmond Jr (31:10) Yes. Yes. Yep. Right. Yeah. Jack Shitama (31:33) then maybe we can start to have conversations about how we might do things differently that could influence politics. I think Dr. King, you know, he had a vision
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  of what could be and he really wasn't political, but his, you know, the civil rights movement changed minds such that politics changed as well. And that's kind of my hope for what might happen in the church. I don't see it happening right now, but Loren Richmond Jr (31:57) Hmm. Jack Shitama (32:03) ⁓ That would be my hope. Loren Richmond Jr (32:05) Well, let me stay on this somewhat controversial topic here, Jack, because I think, I believe I think this is important. Like. Birch again, notes,
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  I don't know if it's in this book, but certainly in data elsewhere about how the mainline process, most churches are by and large, like very purple, almost uniquely divided down the middle. ⁓ somewhat, I somewhat wonder like. is that partially as many folks who are left leaning have left, but also like the reality is what it is. And he notes that a lot of the clergy are very like left leaning again, politically from a political context. So like, wonder, like, I don't know, cause I think there's
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  often this begrudgment, if not outright disdain from mainline clergy of like, my people are so centrist or conservative or middle of the road. And I don't know, folks might strongly disagree with me, but I'm like, I don't know. I just don't know how that's a healthy practice. what, what is it more, how should we go about that? If that makes sense. Jack Shitama (33:17) Yeah, mean, I don't think it is healthy. And it is defining others, judging others instead of letting them be themselves, the
• 4:08
  way Friedman says it is to be a self and let others do the same. And I'm thinking of when I heard my call to ministry back in 1990, I guess, 89, 90. Loren Richmond Jr (33:25) Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Jack Shitama (33:46) ⁓ I was an insurance agent. One of my clients was a campus minister for the InterVarsity Christian Fellowship ⁓ at the University of Delaware, and he was very conservative. IVCF is conservative. He was a Baptist. I told him I wanted to, you know, become a United Methodist
• 4:12
  minister, and he goes, Jack, I grew up in the United Methodist Church, and the whole time I was growing up, I never heard the gospel once. And I said, Loren Richmond Jr (34:13) You Jack Shitama (34:15) Well, Will, don't you think that might be a good place to preach the gospel? And what it makes me think is, you know, well, if you have a bunch of people who are middle of the road, what can you invite them to do? You know, and I think inviting people to think is more important than anything, ⁓
• 4:16
  as opposed to telling them what to do. It's so challenging them to think about this, like, for example, in terms of immigration. Loren Richmond Jr (34:38) Hmm. Jack Shitama (34:44) because you look at the polling, right? People don't want illegal immigrants here who've committed crimes, but they don't want their neighbor down the street who's been a hardworking citizen or, you hardworking neighbor for 20 years. They don't want them home. So sent home or sent back. This is home for them now. So
• 4:20
  what does it mean to find a place where you can actually honor people who are contributing to our society and at the same time ⁓ not allow people who are not Loren Richmond Jr (34:46) Right. Right. Right. Jack Shitama (35:14) doing their part who are criminals to be deported. We're not asking people to think about where that middle ground is. And until we do that, I don't think we're gonna get any answers. And even if we do, we might not. mean, the political powers are pretty strong. ⁓ But I
• 4:24
  would say that at least we should try. As people of faith, I think we should challenge people to think about... ⁓ how Jesus might want us to approach things. Loren Richmond Jr (35:46) So I'm thinking about this because Ryan Burge also notes that 5 % of people he says have a quote need for chaos. Like this desire to just burn it all down. And I literally just heard this like an hour ago as we're recording this for my brother-in-law talking about a job he had working in software ⁓ or kind of
• 4:28
  high-end software tech for like car enthusiasts. Jack Shitama (35:53) Mm-hmm. Loren Richmond Jr (36:12) And he was describing to me how like their business model was so often. They're so often like reacting to what the, know, he, think he used the word 5%, which is what's interesting here with those 5 % would say like, we need this fixed now rather than the 95 % rest of the customers. So certainly we like, we've all seen this dynamic play up, play it out in churches or organizations. Like what
• 4:32
  is a pastor or leader to do? When you have like one or two of these quote, 5 % burn it all down voices who are just like demanding stuff. I guess maybe more, I also want to hear this too, Jack, like how does, how does one stay grounded and confident? Like, Hey, I am doing the right thing or I am being true to my values. Does that make sense? Jack Shitama (37:04) Mm Yeah, well, it is hard because they can gaslight you or they can they can make you think that you're on the wrong track. It is
• 4:36
  hard. What I do find, though, is that when you can model self differentiation, when you can when you can say what you believe, give others the freedom to disagree, not react, not get in a conflict of wills, not blame, then you were able to you're able to to Loren Richmond Jr (37:08) Right. Jack Shitama (37:34) help others do the same. And so when you do that, you're actually creating healthy emotional space for others to try to remain non-anxious in that space. ⁓ When you're dealing with ⁓ the
• 4:40
  people who are trying to ⁓ create chaos, I think there two things that are really important. One is to stay connected to them, stay emotionally connected to them. ⁓ And that means that you don't back away, you don't distance. Loren Richmond Jr (37:51) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Jack Shitama (38:02) That's really hard because what we want to do is we want to avoid them. They're troublemakers. They're causing chaos. They're really anxious. This is not somebody I want to be around and yet ⁓ if you withdraw
• 4:44
  from them it's going to make it worse. So the first part is to ⁓ try to stay connected to them and then the other part is to get clear on what you really believe and what you're willing to accept. ⁓ Loren Richmond Jr (38:06) Right. Jack Shitama (38:30) Because if you get first of all if you can get clear on on your mission focus your vision as a leader and just and say to them, you know, I understand you're upset about this. I understand ⁓ maybe this isn't right or whatever. Yes and ⁓ but I do
• 4:48
  believe this is the best way for us to achieve our mission. I do believe this is where God is ⁓ calling us to go and you've heard me say this millions of times. you don't have to agree with me and I may be wrong, right? ⁓ But so staying focused on that mission and being able to articulate that and then if they're really acting up saying something like, you know, I understand you're upset ⁓ but we're not gonna be able to tolerate this kind of behavior anymore if it keeps up. so that's somebody
• 4:52
  who's yelling and screaming in meetings or they're standing up in church and making a ruckus, you know? Loren Richmond Jr (38:58) Right. Jack Shitama (39:26) We can have conversation about this, but we can't tolerate ⁓ that kind of behavior. It's going back to your eight-year-old son, right? It's the very same thing. It's getting clear on what you're willing to accept and what you're not, and then being willing to set a boundary, take a non-anxious stance. Loren Richmond Jr (39:36) Hehehehehe
• 4:56
  on this topic of thinking about what we can accept, give me some tangible, like, let's just stay on the topic of my son, for instance. He won't be listening right anytime soon. So is that, is that like for me, like accepting, like just to say like Jack Shitama (40:02) Yeah. Loren Richmond Jr (40:07) more clutter in the room than I might like or maybe from a church member or parishioner, some amount of dysfunction or... Is that on track then what you're saying? Jack Shitama (40:20) Well, yes
• 5:00
  or maybe not. So ⁓ maybe it's really important to you that your son cleans up his room. And I guess one of the things is to get clear on what's important. Why does that matter? Right, or what clean, yeah. ⁓ And what does it mean to him? I mean, that's a great conversation. Loren Richmond Jr (40:24) Okay. Sure. or what clean means to me, right? Right. Jack Shitama (40:48) You know, let me tell you what I think clean is. What do you think clean means? ⁓ You know, ⁓ and then being able to say,
• 5:04
  okay, here's what I'm willing to accept. I expect that you're gonna get to this point, right? ⁓ If, and you need to stay in here until that's done, you know, or ⁓ I'm gonna give you until Thursday, and if it's not like that, then ⁓ here's the consequence, you know? Loren Richmond Jr (40:51) Yeah. Yeah. Jack Shitama (41:18) No TV or whatever, no video games or whatever the consequence. He used to say about my, one of my son's friends used to joke about ⁓ him that when he got in trouble, his
• 5:08
  punishment was he couldn't watch Sports Center ⁓ because he loves sports. Loren Richmond Jr (41:21) Yeah. Yeah. Jack Shitama (41:38) Yeah, so, ⁓ and so a similar situation might be in a church meeting ⁓ where somebody is yelling at other people ⁓ and ⁓ making them feel really bad and. What are you willing to accept? and one of those general principles I might have is, you we're all gonna treat each other with respect. And if we can't do that, ⁓ then you're not gonna be welcome in this
• 5:12
  meeting. And so, ⁓ you know, I think those are how boundaries get set. sometimes it means that people leave. ⁓ You know, my coaching practice, I've worked with, Loren Richmond Jr (42:05) Right. Jack Shitama (42:26) pastors who have set boundaries with people and they've left the congregation and ⁓ it wasn't actually a bad thing ⁓ you know and so I think I think it's ⁓ it doesn't always work but it's better than getting reactive or just giving in. Loren Richmond Jr (42:31) Mm-hmm. Yeah, I
• 5:16
  suppose this should be my last question on this Jack. Cause I do think, I do think there's this like tacit acceptance that's also in the main line. This sort of like, we can't lose anybody. So it's like, well, we're, we're willing to put up with dysfunctional behavior. Cause like we can't lose anybody. Like, you know, our, our, our decline is such like, there's such an important giver or volunteer that we can just kind of put up with problematic behavior. Jack Shitama (43:00) Mm-hmm. Loren
• 5:20
  Richmond Jr (43:17) ⁓ Jack Shitama (43:19) Yeah, and that, see, that, ⁓ I think that slowly eats away at the soul if you're a leader because you may be making those decisions, but I think you're also, you know, deep down, you're not valuing the principles that really matter. so I have a, so this is a pastor and his church ended up disaffiliating, but ⁓ I think this is, Loren Richmond Jr (43:24) Yeah. Hmm. Jack Shitama (43:49) this story to me kind of represents the importance of sticking to
• 5:24
  your principles. ⁓ Back in the late 90s, he felt called to actually hire two of my clergy colleagues, they were actually friends of mine, to ⁓ have them for a year in his church and then send them to plant another church about eight miles down the road. ⁓ And in that, ⁓ asked for 12 families, 12 of the most spiritually mature families to go with them. ⁓ That church ended up being ⁓ one of our most vibrant churches in the annual conference. They disaffiliated too, but that's content, not
• 5:28
  process. But I remember this pastor telling me like three months before the launch date, I said, so how are you feeling about this? And he said, I'm a little bit nervous. ⁓ Loren Richmond Jr (44:19) Mm-hmm. Hmm. Right. Jack Shitama (44:46) because I know that those 12 families represent about $150,000 in giving to this church. ⁓ But I really believe that God's gonna make it up. ⁓ And then I saw him like a year later and I said, well, so how's it going? What happened? He goes, God more than
• 5:32
  made it up, you And so I think. Loren Richmond Jr (44:53) Wow. Hmm. Wow. Jack Shitama (45:12) I think when we really trust in God, when we really believe that by following the principles that we think are a part of what it means to follow Jesus, ⁓ that God is going to take care of that, I think we, ⁓ know, God shows up. ⁓ I think about the Civil Rights Movement and how, you know, they would do these purificate, they called them purification before their protests, they would pray. Loren
• 5:36
  Richmond Jr (45:37) Mm-hmm. Jack Shitama (45:41) they would talk about what really matters to them. ⁓ Why is this important? They would talk about not responding to violence with violence, and they would actually think about what it would mean to be hit and not hit back. And they did that trusting that God would do something with that. And it was really the fact that they didn't respond to violence with violence, I think that changed the, ⁓ you know, the... Loren Richmond Jr (45:54) Yeah.
• 5:40
  Jack Shitama (46:09) sentiment in the in US on on civil rights. So ⁓ yeah, so I don't know that was a long answer to a short question. Loren Richmond Jr (46:12) Yeah. That's all right. I want to ask one more question before we take a break, kind of on this theme of, again, process versus content. So I'm thinking about how, like, again, think about this Birg book. Like there's so much data that suggests like church attendance is good from a sociological and emotional standpoint. Jack Shitama
• 5:44
  (46:21) Okay. Loren Richmond Jr (46:39) Certainly I've attempted to make that sell to others, like you should come if even just because of it's good stuff. Certainly though, I think we can also say like, if we reduce church attendance to being about sociological or emotional or even political emphases, like we can get off track. So like I would say, like I believe like the point of church is the process, it's becoming made into or form. being formed into more disciples of Christ, if that makes
• 5:48
  sense. How do we make sure that that content, if I'm, hopefully I'm getting this, this on track here, how do we keep the process from getting crowd out by content, if that makes sense? Jack Shitama (47:12) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, because if the only reason people are going to come to church is for the social and emotional benefits, mean there's a lot of places they can get that, right? I mean in the small towns on the eastern shore, the firehouse is probably even a better place for people to get
• 5:52
  that kind of connection. So I do think it's important to think about who we really are. What does it really mean to be a Christian? And to me, Loren Richmond Jr (47:34) Right. Right. Mm-hmm. Jack Shitama (47:54) that is living and loving like Jesus, right? That's, and we use the theological term sanctification. It's taking on the mind and likeness of Christ. It's becoming more like Jesus. So I think the first thing we have to do is to challenge people. ⁓ Do they want to live a life ⁓ that
• 5:56
  represents what God wants for the world? I mean, I think to me that challenges them to think about Well, there's more to life than just being comfortable. There's more to life than just having things. There's more to life than being, you know, to having friends and feeling connected and feeling good. ⁓ What the Christian faith calls us to is to represent the reign of God to the world. And so the first thing I think is teaching people what that is. you're just talking about the Sermon on the
• 6:00
  Mount. Loren Richmond Jr (48:27) Yeah. Yeah. Jack Shitama (48:53) you know, the Sermon on the Mount is a great way to help teach people about what God wants for the world and I think it's radical. And I think the churches that do have kind of a higher bar ⁓ for what it means to follow Jesus, whether that's, you know, progressive or conservative, I think those are the ones that are. attracting people. I'm not sure of this, but I think I've heard that the Catholic Church is doing fairly well
• 6:04
  because they have high demands, although those demands might be more to the institution. I'm not sure about that, but I do think, know, Friedman says he has a bias for challenge over comfort. And what he means by that is when you're just comforting people, it makes them weaker. Loren Richmond Jr (49:30) Hmm. Yeah. Jack Shitama (49:43) when you challenge people it makes them stronger. And so I think challenging people to think about what it means to follow Jesus and how they might grow in that
• 6:08
  way is one way to stay focused on what I believe the mission of the Church is, ⁓ even ⁓ as there are those other benefits. ⁓ I love my, you know, church community and ⁓ the connections I have there, but that's not the primary reason. Loren Richmond Jr (50:09) Yeah, well I guess again to name our unnamed guest here, Ryan Burge, I've read past stuff from him that like the ACNA, the Anglican Church of North America seems to be one of the few denominations growing because they have, as he at least
• 6:12
  perceived it, high expectations for folks who attend. So there's some at least anecdotal, if you know, if small sample size perhaps data to Jack Shitama (50:14) Mm-hmm, right. Hmm. Mm-hmm. Loren Richmond Jr (50:38) to talk to that trend. Well, let's take a quick break. ⁓ Really again, Jack, we great conversation here. Let's take a quick break and we'll come back with some closing questions. All right, do you need a minute? Otherwise, I'll just reintroduce you. Jack Shitama (50:53) No, no,
• 6:16
  I'm good. do. Interesting you talk about that high bar because that church plant that I was talking about, anybody could attend, but if you wanted to be a member, you had to commit to tithe, to either do alpha or walk to Emmaus and to consider taking a leadership position. And so they had, they were the exact opposite. About a third of their church were member or their worshiping attendance were members. Whereas, you know, it's the other way around and mainline churches. Loren Richmond Jr
• 6:20
  (51:22) Interesting. Jack Shitama (51:23) about a third of their membership are worshipers. Yeah. Loren Richmond Jr (51:26) Yeah, that's interesting. That is, that is... There's something there. Jack Shitama (51:31) Yeah, I think Burge is onto something there. ⁓ Loren Richmond Jr (51:33) Yeah. All right. We're back with Jack Shatoma and Jack, I know I've asked you these questions before at some point, but again, you know, hey, your, your mind might've changed and you're welcome to, to
• 6:24
  answer these from our current context or what have you. But you know, if you're Pope for a day or, or you were in charge of the mainline denomination, pick your denomination, I guess in your, your case, the Methodist Church, or if you're, I don't know, president of the United States. free to interpret this how you want. Like what would you do from that day from like a family systems perspective? Jack Shitama (52:09) I was actually thinking of it from a power perspective. If I were Pope for a
• 6:28
  day, I'd ⁓ enable the ordination of women, I think. ⁓ Just because I think it's long past due. ⁓ Loren Richmond Jr (52:25) Okay, fair enough, fair enough. Jack Shitama (52:28) I don't know about if I were like Bishop in my denomination or even president. ⁓ That would be a tough one. I think I'd rather be Pope. Loren Richmond Jr (52:36) How about this? What's a... Again, I'm trying to spin these all in family systems just so I can learn more here from you. Who's a theologian or historical
• 6:32
  Christian figure you think of as being well differentiated? That means don't say Jesus because that's the easy answer. ⁓ Jack Shitama (52:53) Well, ⁓ because he is, he's the most differentiated. ⁓ I think ⁓ Moses is probably a good one too. ⁓ And so it be interesting to kind of see how he dealt with ⁓ all of the anxiety in the Israelite. They weren't even a nation yet, but you know. Loren Richmond Jr (53:07) Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Jack Shitama (53:22) You know, the complaining, right? And talk
• 6:36
  about triangles, triangles between the people and him and God. ⁓ And he seemed to be able to, for the most part, manage it as a non-anxious presence. Loren Richmond Jr (53:37) How about this then? I recently had a conversation with Bill and Christy Galter who talked about empathy. But when I asked them, we talked a little bit about Peter, know, Disciple Peter, Apostle Peter, his kind of emotional growth. Again, we have only have the source material that we have. Like, what do you think it was
• 6:40
  about Peter? Like, do you think there was some family systems perspectives that enabled his growth? Jack Shitama (54:07) Yeah, I mean, I think it was his denial, right, that ⁓ was kind of his bottom. ⁓ Because up until that point, he ⁓ was kind of the, I don't want to say the favored son, but he was one of the golden boys. ⁓ But I think that kind of impeded actually his maturity. ⁓ And I think when Loren Richmond Jr (54:13) Hmm Right. Jack Shitama (54:36) He actually ⁓ went through that
• 6:44
  really low moment where he realized he'd really messed up. ⁓ I think he had an opportunity to grow from that, and I think he did. I've ⁓ mentioned Bill Selby before. He founded the Center for Pastoral Effectiveness in the Rockies, and he says that a sentence never ends with a period, it always ends with a comma. Loren Richmond Jr (54:42) Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Jack Shitama (55:04) And all that means is that you can always go back and reopen the conversation and say things like, what I really
• 6:48
  meant to say was, or I don't like the way I responded there and here's what I want to tell you now. And I just actually had an email from a coaching client today where that happened with a colleague. And when you actually are able to take the time to sit back and think, okay, what went wrong here and what would I do differently, you can actually do something differently. You can do something about it. And I think that's what happened with Peter. Loren Richmond Jr (55:35) Yeah. Do you think,
• 6:52
  boy, that's interesting. I know I've probably heard that comma versus period thing from you before, but I'm wondering like, when we think about our current time and place, is that something that's like, we put periods again to play with that metaphor so often at the end of people's comments? Does that make sense? Jack Shitama (56:06) Mm-hmm, yeah, mean, ⁓ well, and first of all, we judge people by their beliefs instead of as persons. ⁓ you know, I know a lot of people who are really nice people
• 6:56
  who, you if I were to look at their politics, just look like, are you kidding me? How can you believe that? But I know that, in fact, I'm working on a podcast on Jonathan Haidt's moral foundations theory, and would he... Loren Richmond Jr (56:13) Mm-hmm. Jack Shitama (56:34) What he basically says is we have these moral foundations and then when they feel threatened, we get reactive. And ⁓ that's kind of what happens, I think, is we rationalize what we believe. So it starts with our emotions
• 7:00
  and then we rationalize it, which I've found to be true. ⁓ We don't really know why we believe what we believe and then we rationalize it. Loren Richmond Jr (56:42) Mm-hmm. Yeah. What do you hope for the future of Christianity? What do you hope for... the church, how do you hope that we might live more faithfully into our future? Jack Shitama (57:12) Yeah, I mean, I... In one sense, I wonder if it's all going to come crashing down to be built up again. That's not what I hope for the
• 7:04
  church. ⁓ What I would hope is that ⁓ we have leadership, both ⁓ lay and clergy, who can create space for others and that through that we might start to see people want to connect with Jesus and become more like Jesus. And I think that's a really hard thing Loren Richmond Jr (57:21) Mm. Mm-hmm. Jack Shitama (57:46) because the institutional pressures are so great. ⁓ You have to maintain the building, you have to pay the salaries, all of those things. And so in some sense, perhaps there might
• 7:08
  be movements of ⁓ people, Christians who are free of that and can do things differently. I don't know if you know about the Fresh Expressions Movement, but they're actually, in our denomination, they're meeting next week in Florida. Loren Richmond Jr (57:49) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Jack Shitama (58:15) And ⁓ you know these are people who aren't tied to necessarily a church building ⁓ or an institution even though they are connected kind of to a congregation in some ways, but they're out in
• 7:12
  the community connecting with people and trying to be Jesus and show Jesus. And I think to me that is the hope I see is that there are people who are trying to connect with other people. ⁓ and show them what they believe Jesus is about. Loren Richmond Jr (58:50) Well, I've kept you a good while here. So I really thank you for your time and the conversation. Share more how people can connect with you. I'll make sure to link the podcast, but again, give that a mention. Jack Shitama (59:03)
• 7:16
  Yeah, the website's the nonanxiousleader.com and ⁓ you can find out about the books that I've written and I've got some online courses and I have a coaching practice. ⁓ that's the nonanxiousleader.com and yeah, you can link the podcast. I do have a weekly newsletter so you can subscribe to that at the website. Yeah, that's how you can connect with me. I always enjoy being here with you, talking to you and As you know, we stay pretty well connected on a regular basis through our newsletters and
• 7:20
  email exchanges. that's, I appreciate that. Yeah. Loren Richmond Jr (59:41) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, thank you again for your time. We always leave folks with a word of peace. So may God's peace be with you. Jack Shitama (59:50) and also with you.