Latest / The Smart Cookies podcast / Luka Doncic and the most SHOCKING TRADE in the history of sports - with ESPN's Tim McMahon

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Luka Doncic and the most SHOCKING TRADE in the history of sports - with ESPN's Tim McMahon · The Smart Cookies podcast

0:04
Tim McMahon is a sports writer and journalist
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covering the NBA for ESPN. He's also the integral
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part of the Hoop Collective podcast. But today
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we're going to be discussing his book, The Wonder
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Boy, Luka Doncic and the Curse of Greatness,
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fresh off the press. Tim, welcome to the show.
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Howdy, partner. Really appreciate you having
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me. Now, you told me this is a... podcast for
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really intelligent people but you invited me
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so i am a bit confused i did spend eight years
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in college so that does make me twice as smart
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as most people and you wrote a book come on there's
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not a lot of big words in it though i mean the
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curse of greatness sounds pretty neat come on
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hey you know i'll say this luka donchic is an
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absolutely fascinating player person And the
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situation in Dallas that now obviously has come
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to an end for Luka. I mean, so much drama, dysfunction,
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twists and turns. I'm still, as a lot of people
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are, trying to wrap my head around the fact that
1:13
it's over. That the Mavericks decided to end
1:16
Luka Doncic's tenure in Dallas. That was a plot
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twist I did not see coming. A way I did not see
1:23
the book ending. Here we are, and Luka is thriving
1:29
with the Lakers, and the Mavericks are doing
1:31
their best to pick up the pieces and move on.
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We're going to talk about all of that in just
1:36
a sec, but I'll give you that. This is a bit
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of a departure, this episode. I'm not going to
1:41
lie. We usually discuss something like Napoleon's
1:43
bad table manners or something. But it's also
1:46
true, and I've let it slip quite a few times
1:48
how obsessed with basketball I am. And moreover,
1:51
as a Slovenian lad, I had the childhood dream
1:54
that many Slovenian lads do when they are young
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of becoming basketball superstars. And of course,
2:00
Luka Doncic is the living embodiment of those
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dreams. Now, there might be like a Balkan listener
2:06
or two who will scoff at the idea of, you know,
2:09
what can an American sports analyst tell us about
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one of our very own? But the simple fact is that
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up until the point that Luka was playing in Europe,
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that might have been maybe true. But ever since
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he left for the States, it's clearly not. Also,
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as you know yourself, Slovenian or Balkan journalists
2:25
have next to zero access in the NBA. However,
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you obviously do. And that's why I'd love to
2:32
talk primarily about Luka's NBA career, which
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leads me to my very first question. Luka declared
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for the NBA draft in 2018, and he did so as probably
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the most accomplished European prospect ever
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by a long shot. I mean, he was the EuroLeague's
2:49
MVP at 18, for God's sake. And yet he was only
2:52
the third pick, I believe, after DeAndre Ayton
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and Marvin Bagley III. How come? Well, and not
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only was he the third pick, but three teams passed
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on him, the Mavericks, after tanking to get him.
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Fell to fifth in the lottery, you know, and then,
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you know, they were able to move back up to three
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because the Atlanta Hawks also ended up passing
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on. And it really is interesting because, look,
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as you said, he was the most accomplished European
3:23
teenage player ever. And he had won at the highest
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levels of European competition. I mean, at 17
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years old, the co -star alongside Goran Dragic,
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when you're Slovenians, won. And I try to put
3:40
that in perspective for people here in America.
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I say, hey, it's like if there's a tournament
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where every state enters and Idaho wins it, like
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Slovenia, this tiny little country beating these
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established powerhouses and Luka going head to
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head and outshining established NBA stars in
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that tournament when he could, I don't know if
4:01
he could grow a mustache yet. And then just the
4:04
fact that he's in the Real Madrid rotation. much
4:07
less starring and then winning EuroLeague MVP,
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EuroLeague Final Four MVP. But there were a lot
4:13
of questions about him. One, a lot of NBA people
4:17
really didn't know what to make of him. Not very
4:21
many people thought he could play point guard
4:23
in the NBA. They didn't think he could be a primary
4:26
ball handler. Oh, you know, he's not athletic
4:29
enough, and, you know, he's not explosive. Obviously,
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there's the defensive concerns. But, you know,
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I had one executive with a team that was pretty
4:39
high up in the lottery tell me, yeah, he's going
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to be a good player. He might make a couple all
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-star games, you know, like a playmaking forward.
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He's a Turk -a -loo type of guy. I mean, Luke
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is rookie year. Would have been the best year
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of Hito Turkoglu's career, you know, but so I
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do think he was mis -evaluated and, you know,
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and he was also battling the intel about him.
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And look, just to be clear, I think the Dallas
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Mavericks made an insane decision to trade this
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guy. All right. Let me just be clear with that.
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But the conditioning concerns, hey. Those are
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legitimate and they've been legitimate throughout
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his career and they were part of the pre -draft
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process. Hey, you know, this guy, he doesn't
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really love the conditioning. He doesn't love
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the preparation. You know, he likes to have a
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good time, you know, and there was concerns about
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essentially, is he going to get fat and happy
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once he got NBA money? I think his ruthless competitiveness
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somehow really got. underrated. I think his playing
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ability got underrated. And then it's just their
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circumstances here. You don't think Igor Kosciuszko
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wanted to draft this guy? Are you kidding me?
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The guy who coached him on the Slovenian national
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team that benefited and witnessed, benefited
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from his brilliance and witnessed it on a day
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-to -day basis as Slovenia is making this run
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to the Eurobasket title. The Suns hired him as
6:11
their head coach and he had zero say. In the
6:15
draft process, Igor tried to talk Robert Sarver.
6:19
At the last minute, he said, look, you didn't
6:20
ask. I just got to get this off my chest. This
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guy's going to be a superstar. He's the best
6:26
player in the draft. We've got to take him. And
6:29
he even laid out, we draft him. We sign Clint
6:32
Capella, you know, this lob threat, this pick
6:35
and roll partner. Sign him to a big offer sheet.
6:37
The Rockets won't match it. Luca, Booker, Capella.
6:40
And Sarver kind of. Thanks for the input, buddy.
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Go sit in the corner. We're drafting DeAndre
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Ayton, this seven -footer who went to Arizona,
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Robert Sarver's alma mater, obviously right in
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the shadow of Phoenix. Anyway, so Igor had no
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hope of getting the Suns to make the smart decision
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there. Vlade Divac, Balkan basketball legend.
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I was told he knew too much in terms of the intel,
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and honestly, Vlade didn't believe that Luka
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was going to be that type of player. And they
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had De 'Aaron Fox. He wanted to, you know, Luka's
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going to need the ball. He can't take it out
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of Fox's hands. And draft night, they take Marvin
7:23
Bagley to third. Vlade says, better player and
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better fit. Well, as Luka pointed out when the
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Mavericks played the Kings late last season and
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Vlade was back as a courtside guest, Luka put
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the finishing touches on a win, and I'm sure
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you've seen the tape. He looks. Yep. He's going
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back to the bench. That guy should have drafted
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me. That guy should have drafted me. Well, he's
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right. And then the Hawks, they had, you know,
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there was debate. Luka or Trae Young. Luka or
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Trae Young. They would have taken Luka if they
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had stayed at that pick. But they felt like getting
7:56
another lottery pick in the deal was worth it.
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And the Mavericks pounced on the opportunity,
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obviously, to move up. Donnie Nelson was pounding
8:07
the table for them. Bob Vulgaris, who... Nobody
8:10
really knew was involved with the Mavericks at
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the time, but absolutely had Cuban's ear was
8:15
saying, hey, this guy's going to end up being
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an MVP candidate. Now, he thought it'd be five
8:19
years down the road, not near two, but like this
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guy's going to be a James Harden type of player.
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And that's one thing that Bob and Donnie agreed
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on. There weren't a lot of things, but that was
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one. They got Cuban on board and the Mavericks
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got Luka in Dallas and it was a damn good decision.
8:37
What did you think of Luka before his rookie
8:39
season? about how he's going to fare in the NBA?
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You know, I'll be honest with you. I don't really
8:45
do a whole lot of draft prep. We have people
8:50
at ESPN, you know, Jonathan Gavone, Mike Schmitz
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at the time, who's now a Portland Trailblazers
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assistant GM. But these guys focus on the draft
8:59
year round. Like they can tell you right now,
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if you had them all, you'd say, hey, who? what
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do you think of the best 15 -year -old Slovenian
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prospect? And they could tell you all about him.
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So, you know, I'd heard of Luka. I knew that
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he was a guy who was kind of on the radar for
9:16
the Mavericks. But I'll be honest with you, I
9:18
wasn't like watching Real Madrid at the time.
9:22
It's funny, since Luka's arrived in Dallas, now
9:25
like I do. pay a lot closer attention to your
9:28
old basket and all that stuff um and you know
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i went over in the summer of 2022 went to germany
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went to cologne and watched group play so i kind
9:36
of got the atmosphere and you know felt that
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um but i'd seen clips i didn't know a whole lot
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about them you know and they told me man you
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know this guy's got a chance to be really good
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you know probably gonna come in and and play
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small forward and you know so i was okay we'll
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see um but i I didn't know a whole lot about
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him until he got here. The title of your book
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is Wonder Boy. What makes Luka such a unique
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basketball talent, in your opinion? First and
10:08
foremost, it's just the way that he feels the
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game. Talking to one of his youth coaches over
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there in Slovenia, he said, That's the way he
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put it. He just has that thing you can't teach.
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It's just a natural feel. Some people see it,
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and I'm blanking on my guy's name, but he was
10:36
with Union Olympia. He said some people see it,
10:40
Luka feels it. The great ones feel it, and he
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just does. People always talk about the way he
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plays at his own pace. He plays at whatever pace
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he wants to play at. He forces opponents to play
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at his pace. You can't speed him up. So you've
11:03
got a combination of just this feel, this basketball
11:07
brilliance where, again, he sees things three,
11:11
four steps ahead, even compared to the vast majority
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of NBA players. And look. He's not your jump
11:22
out of the gym, you know, win a foot race type
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of athlete, but Luka Doncic is a hell of an athlete.
11:28
You know, he's huge, especially for a guard,
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right? 6 '7", 6 '8", when he's in shape, 245,
11:36
250, sometimes a lot heavier than that, but strong
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as a bull. And his athleticism, he has the best
11:45
breaks of anybody I've ever seen his size. Right.
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And again, it's similar to James Harden. Like
11:53
when he went to P3, this this place in Santa
11:56
Barbara where they do all this, all this, you
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know, diagnostic testing the guys. They said
12:00
you put the graphs of Harden and Luca. This is
12:04
when Luca was a teenager. You put them over the
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top of each other and it's basically it's matching.
12:10
Unbelievable breaks, the ability to, you know,
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be going full speed, to stop, to be completely
12:16
on balance. Ability to decelerate, stay on balance,
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make plays off of that. The combination of the
12:25
breaks, the strength, the touch. There's not
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a whole lot of guys. He might be the best combination
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of power and finesse that we have ever seen.
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Obviously, then just the skill. And there's a
12:41
lot said about Luka's work ethic. You don't develop
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his kind of skill without working at it, right?
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Yeah. I mean, you don't develop the ability to
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shoot like that, the tough shot -making ability,
12:53
the step -backs, the crazy finishes in the paint.
12:57
All of that combined with the vision, the fact
13:01
he can make any pass in the world because of
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how he sees it, because of his size. There are
13:06
passing windows available to him that the vast
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majority of guards don't have. And then the other
13:11
thing he has that you're either born with or
13:13
you're not. is that ruthless competitiveness.
13:18
Luka won't only rip somebody's heart out, but
13:23
he will enjoy doing it. I always say Luka operates
13:27
with these emotional extremes, and sometimes
13:29
his emotions do get the best of him, especially
13:31
when he kind of overheats with the referees,
13:33
right? And he's acknowledged that. He hasn't
13:36
necessarily improved it, but he's acknowledged
13:38
it. but luke is either smiling or snarling and
13:42
sometimes it's a combination of those two things
13:44
you know what i mean but like when he is funny
13:47
like last night comes back to dallas and they
13:49
play the tribute video and luke is really like
13:53
he's breaking down tears flowing down his face
13:55
and he was asked after the game like what really
13:58
got you about that video He said it was the shot
14:02
that he hit over Rudy Gobert in the Western Conference
14:04
Finals, that game winner. Right. And that was
14:07
just the epitome of the Luka Doncic experience.
14:10
Right. Because it's so much a holy. I'm not going
14:15
to curse. Holy smokes. The skill. Right. The
14:18
skill. And then the step back to the right. Something
14:21
that he had barely done. Unbelievable shot. Clutch
14:26
moment and then just the snarl. And as Lucas
14:31
said, he said some Slovenian stuff to Rudy in
14:37
the moment, which made me realize I know a whole
14:39
lot more Slovenian than I thought I did. I thought
14:41
the only Slovenian words I knew were Pivo and
14:43
Hvala. But the MF and all that, I know those
14:48
words too. But again, skill, cojones, ruthless
14:54
competitiveness. size, strength, vision. It's
14:59
a very, very unique package. It was quite an
15:03
interesting contrast moving for us, especially
15:06
Slovenia, probably, to see him cry yesterday
15:09
watching the tribute video because, like you
15:11
said, usually we see his usual ruthless assassin
15:14
self. But speaking of psychology, what makes
15:18
him go off on the court? What makes him tick?
15:22
Well... And there's two different kinds of going
15:26
off for Luka. There is the properly channeled
15:32
wrath, and then there's the ranting and overheating,
15:37
right? And then there's the joy. But in terms
15:43
of the referees, and usually when he's going
15:47
after the referees, maybe not even necessarily
15:51
about the refs. He's just frustrated and the
15:53
refs are a convenient target. Sometimes it is
15:56
about the refs. A lot of times he's frustrated.
15:58
He's right at the refs. And aside from conditioning,
16:02
Luka's biggest flaw is a lot of times he'll focus
16:05
more on the three guys in the gray shirts than
16:07
the five guys on the floor for the other team.
16:10
Now, the properly channeled ref, Luka always
16:14
will look for a reason to feel slighted. for
16:19
a reason to, to, to, to be mad, you know, don't
16:23
be the opponent who talks trash to them. And,
16:27
you know, and, and guys have learned, I don't
16:29
know that a whole lot of guys are talking too
16:30
much trash to Luca in the NBA anymore. But that
16:33
sounds a little bit like Michael Jordan, doesn't
16:35
it? Oh no, it's, it's definitely, it's, it's
16:37
definitely, it's that same sort Kobe Jordan.
16:40
It's, it's that sort of ruthless competitiveness
16:43
where. They are looking for a reason to feel
16:46
slighted. They are, they're, you know, looking
16:49
for just any little shred of, of motivational
16:52
fodder that, you know, just then they'll take
16:55
a little crumb and make it into a mountain. You
16:58
know, how many times have you seen Landy got
17:00
kicked out the other night? But how many times
17:04
have you seen Luca pick out one particular fan
17:08
courtside? And, oh, you said, okay. And then
17:11
it's every bucket, and he's just going back and
17:14
forth with that guy and, you know, the rest of
17:16
the game. You know, I remember talking to some
17:19
of his Slovenian teammates, and it's the opener,
17:23
the Olympic opener. They're playing Argentina,
17:26
right? And, you know, it's the COVID Olympics,
17:30
so it's pretty much an empty gym. But some Argentinian
17:33
staffer behind the bench. said something early
17:37
in the game. You know, instead of in Spanish,
17:39
you know, obviously Luka knows Spanish. Luka
17:41
heard that, and for the rest of the game, while
17:43
Luka is absolutely lighting Argentina up, he's
17:48
letting that guy know about it. So he definitely
17:51
is one of these dudes who, he looks for stuff,
17:54
and frankly, sometimes Luka makes it up. Sometimes,
17:57
you know, he'll, oh, you see the way that guy
17:59
looked at me? He wouldn't even, you know, like
18:02
Luka will find a reason to get fired up. and
18:05
to get pissed off but again he's he is absolutely
18:08
at his best when he has that rage and that wrath
18:15
that's properly channeled right and again it's
18:20
funny wrath and joy for him can be very related
18:23
there's joy in his wrath right um that he likes
18:27
nothing i i really think luca loves nothing more
18:31
than being the enemy in a road arena and ripping
18:34
the heart out of an entire fan base, an entire
18:37
city. You know, seriously, I'm thinking about
18:39
the elimination game in Minnesota last year.
18:42
You know, think about Game 7 in Phoenix. Number
18:45
one seed Suns. They've been chirping all series
18:48
long. You know, look at the last time he walked
18:50
up that court. Everybody act tough when they
18:52
up. Remember all that? I mean, that photo when
18:55
he's looking at Booker. It's become a meme on
18:58
the internet. I mean, I send it to my friends
18:59
all the time. Like we can't, we can't have enough
19:02
of that stuff. It's so funny. And you can see
19:06
the thought bubble. You got anything to say now,
19:07
but game seven, the guy outscored the number
19:11
one seed by himself in the first half in a road
19:15
game seven. It was over at halftime. It was over
19:18
at the end of the first quarter. That I think
19:21
is when Luca is the most comfortable. And honestly,
19:24
that was why. I wasn't sure what to expect when
19:27
he returned to Dallas last night. And he said
19:30
himself, and Oklahoma said it the night before,
19:32
he knew it was going to be emotional, but he
19:34
wasn't sure how he was going to handle it. And
19:37
then they play the tribute video, and he's obviously,
19:40
like, tears are flowing down his face. And, like,
19:43
you could see, like, especially when LeBron embraced
19:46
him at the end of the, you know, of the line
19:49
there. Like, Lucas resting his head on LeBron's
19:53
shoulder. He, like, needed. He needed a moment
19:56
to regain his composure. And I wasn't sure how
20:00
he would respond to that sort of emotion. I know
20:04
how he responds to hate on the road or to venom.
20:07
I didn't know how he would respond to that kind
20:10
of love. And more so from the fan. Obviously,
20:13
there's no love lost between Luka and the upper
20:15
ranks in the Mavericks organization right now
20:17
or ever again. But especially from the fans.
20:22
But boy. did he respond and again he was able
20:26
to regain his composure and kind of channel all
20:28
that emotion the proper way and again you get
20:32
back to the ruthless competitiveness and the
20:34
skill when he hit that when he got anthony davis
20:36
you know the guy who was traded for him when
20:39
he got him on a switch midway through the fourth
20:41
quarter and you know kind of got in his bag and
20:44
it was like with gobert got him dancing Got to
20:46
that step back and hit that step back three on
20:48
him. I think that gave Luka 14 points midway
20:51
through the fourth quarter. He was like, okay,
20:53
it's going to be one of those nights. All right.
20:59
There's another massive talent coming from the
21:02
same neighborhood, so to speak, and that's Nikola
21:04
Jokic. Three -time MVP. Should be four after
21:07
this season, if we're being objective, which
21:09
I'm totally not, of course. It won't be four.
21:12
I think it'll be Shea goes to Alexander's first.
21:14
Yeah, I know. He's the favorite. Joker absolutely
21:16
has a case. He's crushing it. Also, NBA champion,
21:20
already regarded as one of the best centers of
21:22
all time. Obviously, they're not playing in the
21:25
same position, but if you compare the two, what
21:28
are some of the similarities and some of the
21:30
differences that you see between them as players?
21:34
I think the biggest similarity is just, again,
21:38
that combination of size, power, finesse, and
21:45
genius, right? These are two of the most intelligent
21:51
basketball players that we've ever seen. And
21:54
by that, I'm talking about just the way they
21:56
process the game, the way they can catch the
22:01
ball. and immediately know where everybody is
22:05
and where the chess pieces are going to move
22:08
before anybody else on the floor does. Both of
22:11
those guys, as brilliant as they are as scorers,
22:15
like 50 -point games, 60 -point games, Luke obviously
22:19
led the league in scoring last year. To me, the
22:25
passing is what separates them from essentially
22:28
everybody else in the league. that's what has
22:32
made Joker one of the best players of all time.
22:35
That's what's really put Luka on the path to
22:38
being one of the best players of all time. And
22:40
that to me, honestly, is the most entertaining
22:42
aspect of their games. Like both of those guys,
22:47
they make passes where you're gasping as the
22:52
ball is in the air. right where you had no idea
22:56
that pass was even a remote possibility until
22:59
it's already out of their hands and you're like
23:01
oh my god how did he see that you know sometimes
23:06
how did he see it and how did he get it there
23:08
but like it did just mind -blowing with the way
23:12
that they feel the game they again it's not just
23:15
seeing it the way that they feel it and then
23:18
obviously the biggest difference is where Luka
23:21
operates at these emotional extremes that I'm
23:23
talking about. Joker is as even keel as you will
23:27
ever find. Like, have you ever seen Joker yell?
23:31
I don't know if I ever have. You know, he made
23:34
that pass. Gosh, I forget who it was against.
23:37
But it was this unbelievable pass where he threw
23:41
it, you know, over his head, you know, behind
23:43
his back, over his head, blindly hit Aaron Gordon
23:46
recently. One of the best passes. uh of the sea
23:49
oh he's against the bucks because lopez was back
23:52
there and lopez is looking one way the ball's
23:55
going right over you know right over his shoulder
23:57
almost hits him in the ear the other way and
24:01
again it's one of those passes where as the ball's
24:04
in the air and so everybody in the arena is reacting
24:09
and oh my god and joker his eyebrows didn't raise
24:14
he didn't crack a smile So the biggest difference
24:17
is just where Luke is so demonstrative with his
24:22
emotions and really wears them on his sleeve.
24:25
Joker's complete flatline in that regard. Okay,
24:30
we got to talk about the big elephant in the
24:32
room. I don't think I'm the only person that
24:34
feels that the more time passes from that fateful,
24:36
what was it, February 1st or 2nd, the more bizarre
24:39
the trade seems, especially from the Mavs perspective.
24:42
Your colleague, Brian Windhorst, recently called
24:45
it malpractice on their part, I believe. Now,
24:48
one thing that is certain in this story is the
24:51
fact that Luka didn't want to be traded and felt
24:53
totally blindsided and betrayed by what happened.
24:56
We talked about the 20... draft before and what
25:01
a scoop getting this type of generational talent
25:05
was for the Mavs so I'm wondering what made the
25:08
organization go from hey fellas we totally lucked
25:11
out to let's get rid of this guy behind his back
25:14
followed by a bunch of pretty brutal shots fired
25:18
on his way out stuff about his conditioning his
25:21
weight and his lack of defense sure listen Number
25:28
one, understand all the people involved with
25:32
drafting Luka are either gone or no longer have
25:35
any say, right? And so you're primarily talking
25:39
about Mark Cuban, who he sold the majority share
25:43
of the franchise last year. When he did that,
25:46
he told everybody he was keeping control of basketball
25:48
operations. That's not the case. He clearly did
25:53
not. He has no more say than any other rich guy
25:55
who has a courtside season ticket right now.
25:59
This never happens if Cuban's in control. Cuban,
26:02
I would say rightfully or wisely, made Kissin'
26:07
Luca's butt the priority for six years. And then,
26:10
as you said, they stabbed him in the back. Well,
26:12
Cuban had no control. Cuban tried to talk Nicol
26:17
Harrison out of the trade, but by the time Cuban
26:19
found out, it was... even remotely a possibility,
26:22
it was done. Donnie Nelson was fired by Mark
26:27
Cuban. They had a massive fallout. It just doesn't
26:31
happen if Donnie Nelson's the GM. Bob Vulgaris,
26:34
he left after this whole Game of Thrones thing
26:38
played out in the front office. As much as Luka
26:41
didn't like Bob Vulgaris, Bob Vulgaris loved
26:44
Luka's talent and sure as hell wasn't trading
26:46
him. He thought Luka was... One of the most talented
26:52
basketball players in the history of the game
26:54
and a guy who everything in the franchise needed
26:59
to revolve around. I would argue rightfully so.
27:03
So, Nico Harrison had the ultimate decision -making
27:07
power. Nico Harrison and Luka Doncic had a fraying
27:13
in their relationship, right? They didn't have
27:16
a relationship this year. Do we know why? Well,
27:20
a lot of it goes back to, and again, I get into
27:23
this in the final chapter that wasn't planned
27:25
in the book and didn't even make the early copies
27:27
because they were already printed at the time
27:30
of the trade. But when you fire and run off all
27:36
the people or a lot of the people who Luca doesn't
27:39
only like, but respects and trusts, and I'm talking
27:44
about behind the scenes people. Casey Smith,
27:46
one of the most respected, if not the most respected
27:49
person in the league in terms of athletic trainers.
27:52
The guy who was in charge of the health and performance
27:54
group. The guy who was there for 20 years. Dirk
27:57
Nowitzki, one of his very best friends. Hired
28:01
once his contract ran out with the Mavericks
28:03
after being forced to sit on the couch for a
28:06
year. Hired by Jalen Brunson's Knicks. Luka loved
28:09
him. You know, a guy who went to Slovenia every
28:12
summer. A guy who was a massive part. of Luke
28:15
of making this huge cultural transition from
28:19
a teenager who grew up in Europe to not only
28:23
America, but to the NBA, you fire Casey Smith
28:27
in August of 2023. And honestly, at the time
28:30
that happened, I was like, Ooh, this is going
28:33
to be, this is going to be something. And then
28:35
it didn't develop right away. You know, the Mavericks
28:39
managed to go to the finals last year. So, okay.
28:43
But Casey Smith got fired. Scott Tomlin, who
28:46
was their longtime head PR man, another guy extremely
28:49
close to Luca. You know, after Casey Smith got
28:52
fired, Dirk Nowitzki said to Scott Tomlin, another
28:55
one of his best friends, hey, get out of there.
28:58
Come work for me. This isn't our Mavericks organization
29:00
anymore. So Scott Tomlin's now executive director
29:03
of the Dirk Nowitzki Foundation. Scooter. And
29:08
Casey were probably the two people in the organization
29:11
who spent the most time with Luca. And then after
29:14
the finals run, they fired two other people who
29:16
spent a ton of time with Luca, who Luca knew
29:18
and trusted and respected. Jeremy Holzapfel,
29:21
their strength coach, Casey Spangler, the manual
29:23
therapist. And so you're basically intentionally
29:29
running off all these people who Luca considers
29:34
his friends. And he respects and he trusts. And
29:37
you're bringing in Nico guys. Yeah, there's going
29:41
to be a breakdown in the relationship. There's
29:42
going to be alienation. Now, again, to be very,
29:46
very clear, Luca did not want out of Dallas.
29:49
And you saw the tears flow last night. You know,
29:53
like he has said it and you saw it. Luca absolutely
29:58
was planning to spend his entire career in Dallas.
30:02
There had been fear in the organization. That
30:05
if they couldn't build a contender around him,
30:08
that, you know, he might almost be pushed to
30:12
change his mind. But they did. They went to the
30:15
finals. Nico Harrison decided he didn't want
30:19
Luca to spend his whole career in doubts. And
30:21
then, you know, so the frame of the relationships
30:24
combined with the conditioning concerns, the
30:26
four calf strains in 28 months, the fear that,
30:29
you know, it's going to be something worse. the
30:32
belief from Nico Harrison that the body was going
30:35
to break down. And then Nico has this, you know,
30:38
obviously Kobe was his guy. Like he was tight
30:40
with Kobe, this Mamba mentality. And that's the
30:43
standard. And if you're not doing it that way,
30:45
you're doing it, you know, the wrong way. That's
30:48
the culture that he wants. And look at, look,
30:50
man. Luka's a ruthless competitor. That has not
30:54
translated into this commitment to diet and the
30:58
conditioning and all those kind of things. In
31:00
practices, if you want Luka engaged, it has to
31:02
be a competitive situation. It's a flaw, but
31:05
it's also like, hey, he's a five -time first
31:08
-team All -NBA selection. He's yet to hit his
31:10
prime yet. He averaged 34 -10 -9 and took a team
31:13
in the finals. But these are the things that
31:16
led to Niko deciding, I don't want Luka. I want
31:20
to dump this guy. I want to get one of my guys
31:22
in here. Anthony Davis is my guy. And then Nico
31:26
managed up to Patrick DeMont, who's barely a
31:31
year into owning an NBA franchise, who frankly
31:34
doesn't know whether there's feathers or air
31:36
in a basketball, and convinced him, this guy's
31:41
not committed to us. This guy doesn't fit our
31:43
culture. His body's going to break down. We cannot
31:46
give this guy a Supermax contract. That's going
31:49
to be a terrible investment. And that's how the
31:52
trade happened. And I'm explaining to you the
31:56
thought process behind the trade. I am not co
31:59
-signing on that thought process, to be very
32:01
clear. We can go into all the flaws in that logic,
32:05
but that was the thought process that went into
32:08
it. Two reasons that were cited by Nico Harrison
32:12
for the trade were culture and defense. You mentioned
32:15
both, actually. Now, Luka's defense could often
32:18
be better. I don't think anyone is denying that,
32:20
not even Slovenia. However, this culture thing
32:22
is a bit elusive for us Europeans, I believe.
32:25
What exactly did Nico Harrison mean by culture?
32:29
Again, a lot of the stuff that I was just referring
32:32
to. Like the Mamba mentality. The Mamba mentality
32:35
and the fraying of the gym. Yeah, and the fraying
32:40
of their relationships where it, you know, Luka
32:43
not only wasn't a Nico guy, but honestly, it
32:48
was a... Bad dynamic between those guys by the
32:51
end. And I'm not blaming Luka for that, to be
32:54
clear. I think Niko made an adversarial relationship
32:59
by all those things that I just laid out to you,
33:02
by running off the people that he did, by just
33:05
a lot of things. But for example, like the last
33:10
road trip, when Luka got traded midway through
33:12
a five -game road trip. The Mavericks and Nico
33:14
and the Mavericks medical people were insisting,
33:17
you need to be on the road for this trip. You
33:19
need to be with the team. You're planning to
33:21
come back. The target date was February 8th.
33:24
And Luca and his body team and his management,
33:32
his agent, and his business manager were like,
33:36
no, Luca's going to be at home ramping up for
33:40
his return. Luca doesn't need to be on the road
33:43
traveling and, you know, hoping to get into the
33:45
gym for maybe an hour after a shoot around or
33:48
a practice. He's going to be doing two days at
33:51
the practice facility. He doesn't need like this
33:53
makeshift medical stuff that you can put together
33:56
in hotel rooms on the road. He's going to be
33:58
at the practice facility where they've got all
34:00
the technology laid out. And so there's just
34:03
this total disconnect. And that was kind of the
34:07
final example of the disconnect where, You know,
34:11
Nico Harrison and people with the Maddox are,
34:13
oh, he's holding us hostage. And, you know, Lucas
34:16
people are, no, he's doing, like, we're putting
34:18
him in a position to best prepare for his return.
34:21
But the communication was awful when it was,
34:27
when it existed at all. And there's just such
34:30
a disconnect there. But again, despite that disconnect,
34:34
it wasn't like, there wasn't any doubt that Luca
34:38
was going to sign that Supermax extension this
34:40
summer. Right. The man was closing on what was
34:43
going to be his American forever home. He lost
34:45
the earnest money. I mean, you know, he'd be
34:48
put money down already. And the Mavericks knew
34:50
this. They had been informed because, you know,
34:53
it was a deal where they were buying this house
34:55
off the market and they were given a heads up.
34:57
Hey, Lucas house is going to be hitting the market.
35:02
This is why. Like, don't worry. He's he's in
35:05
Dallas. Like he's getting a new house. You know,
35:07
so and, you know, they were informed. It wasn't,
35:10
hey, is Luca going to sign that supermax? It
35:12
was like, oh, no, we don't want to give him that
35:16
supermax. And again, even if you want to trade
35:18
the guy, the best thing you can do is give him
35:22
the supermax. You've got to wait a year and a
35:24
half to trade him in that case. But if you have
35:26
him on a supermax and he's locked up long term,
35:29
you don't have to shank him in the back and blindside
35:32
him. You don't have to keep it a secret so his
35:34
agent doesn't find out and can't influence things.
35:37
You just put them on the trade block and let
35:39
the whole league know and have the biggest bidding
35:40
war in the league instead of doing it in secret.
35:44
Where Rob Palenka says, hey, I can't give you
35:46
all my, you know, I got a whole bunch of stuff.
35:48
We don't know if he's going to like it in L .A.
35:50
Guy might not like sunshine. I mean, who knows?
35:52
Maybe doesn't like the beach and glitz and glamour
35:54
and playing for the most, you know, one of the
35:57
best franchises in professional sports. So the
36:02
fear of the supermatch was. one of many, many,
36:06
many flaws in the approach by the Mavericks here.
36:10
Mark Cuban said... Yeah, go ahead. Just straight
36:13
up, like, if they're right and Luka's body breaks
36:15
down, he still would have had immense trade value.
36:18
Look what the Nets got for Kevin Durant. I mean,
36:21
but they traded for Anthony Davis, whose nickname
36:23
is Street Clothes, and then he got injured. I
36:26
mean, he's a great player, but he's injured a
36:27
lot. And he was hurt. Luka was hurt at the time
36:31
of the trade, but so was Anthony Davis, and Anthony
36:33
Davis aggravated that injury. in the third quarter
36:36
of his Dallas debut. There's a lot of flaws here.
36:38
There's a lot of where you just look at the logic
36:41
and you're like, dude, this doesn't make sense.
36:45
I just want to say that Mark Cuban said something
36:48
surprisingly insightful in my opinion, because
36:51
I don't believe any of this other stuff that
36:53
he's saying about selling the team and still
36:54
believing he will run basketball operations.
36:56
I mean, the guy's like a total business shark.
36:58
He's on a show called... Shark something. Shark
37:02
Tank. Yeah. However, in regards to the trade,
37:04
he said the following. The biggest mistake in
37:07
trying to understand Luka was that he's from
37:08
the Balkans and it's just a different mindset.
37:10
They look at the game differently. They look
37:12
at life differently. That fact was not considered
37:14
as fully as it should have been. And other than
37:17
his basketball talent, Luka was just like every
37:20
other guy. That was one of the reasons he loves
37:22
to play with the Slovenian team. He relates so
37:24
well with all the other players from that part
37:26
of the world. That's who he's hanging out with
37:29
over the summer. And so I don't think we truly
37:32
took time to understand that. What's your take
37:35
on that? That's Cuban basically saying, you know,
37:39
Nico didn't take time to understand that. And
37:42
I think a little bit on, you know, Jason was
37:46
also quite frustrated with Luca by the end, to
37:49
be clear. I mean, I'm sorry. Do you believe that?
37:52
Jason Kidd didn't know anything about the trade.
37:54
I mean, not consulting your coach is a bit far
37:57
-fetched. It sounds like a tall tale. I'm quite
38:00
skeptical on that. Okay, right. But going, what
38:03
did you want to say about... Sorry, I interrupted.
38:06
Where was I? I asked you about the Mark Cuban
38:09
statement about not... Oh, yes, yes. They didn't
38:12
consider Luca's background and him coming from
38:15
the Balkans and so forth. Yeah. And I hear that.
38:19
I also... I think that's a... I think Cubans
38:23
sort of stereotype in Balkans a little bit there
38:26
as well, because really, listen, what you're
38:28
talking about is, hey, you know, the man likes
38:32
to, you know, he likes his meat and potatoes.
38:34
And, you know, help me. I had some of those dishes
38:36
in the Balkans. I think I gained 10 pounds for
38:40
my week in Slovenia because I had I enjoyed some
38:42
Pivo and I enjoyed. God, I can't pronounce them.
38:46
But, you know, I at least hiked to the top of
38:48
Smarna Gora, but at that restaurant up there,
38:50
I had certainly a Slovenian dish. That's not
38:53
a really tall – that's not a tall one, but it's
38:56
something. I'll give you that. Hey, I was tired.
38:59
Okay, okay. Sorry. No shade. But, you know, I
39:02
think there's – so, yeah. Does Luca like to eat?
39:06
Does he like to drink beer? Does he like to drink
39:08
wine? Of course he does. I think there's a bit
39:11
of a stereotype in there of, like, all Balkans
39:14
have – The issue with Luka was the weight fluctuation,
39:18
which gets back to the conditioning and all that.
39:21
Joker made a commitment to his conditioning pretty
39:24
early in his career, and he's been one of the
39:25
most durable players in the NBA. Dirk's not Balkan,
39:29
but he's European, and he was an absolute fanatic
39:32
when it came to diet and conditioning. Goran
39:37
Dragic was one of the best condition players.
39:39
I mean, like, you know, he had no issue. He was
39:42
ripped. Yeah. And he was playing for the Miami
39:45
Heat, where it's like this, like the demands
39:47
on conditioning there are higher than any franchise
39:49
in the league. And it was like a, you know, a
39:53
leader in that organization and thrived in that
39:56
organization. So I'm a little uncomfortable with
39:59
chalking this thing up, just totally calling
40:02
it a cultural thing. I mean, what's the other
40:05
biggest sport in Slovenia? Cycling, right? Pretty
40:09
sure those guys are in damn good shape. It was
40:12
a Luka thing, right? And Nico and Luka just weren't
40:16
on the same page. And I think it did become personal.
40:19
I think Nico let it become personal, let it become
40:23
petty. And honestly, was Luka defiant? Was there
40:29
some defiance in him? Absolutely. But as a general
40:33
manager, I think you've got to let that stuff
40:35
go. You know, you can't get caught up in that
40:39
because you know what? This is not a corporate
40:42
situation. Like this isn't a deal where the manager
40:46
is the boss and everything. You know, if you're
40:48
not on the same page with him, you're out. No,
40:50
this is a player's league. This is a superstar
40:53
league. And when you get a guy like that, I'm
40:56
sorry. Everything revolves around him. You've
40:59
got to do everything you can to make him happy.
41:02
His happiness. Absolutely should be the franchise's
41:06
priority. And really, Luka, by NBA superstar
41:11
standards, he's not on the extreme end in terms
41:15
of high maintenance. To make him happy, really,
41:19
the one thing he needed was a chance to contend
41:22
for championships. The Baffics gave him that.
41:25
He was good. He was going to be here forever.
41:28
So, you know, all the other stuff, I don't think
41:31
it was a... Again, I think it was personal differences,
41:36
and I don't know that I would just say it's about,
41:40
oh, Niko didn't understand Balkans. I'm not going
41:45
to let him look that easily. In your opinion,
41:48
how bad are Luka's conditioning problems? And
41:51
also, why is it so hard for him to stay in shape?
41:55
So, here's the thing. Yes, there are issues,
41:59
and the weight does fluctuate, and you see that,
42:01
and the calf strains are a concern. Also, the
42:04
man played more minutes than anybody in the NBA
42:07
last season when you combine regular season and
42:09
playoffs while putting up an unprecedented stat
42:13
line, 34 -10 -9 basically, leading the league
42:15
in scoring while averaging almost a triple -double.
42:19
Coming off of the summer where he played in the
42:21
World Cup, going right into a summer where he
42:24
played in the Olympic qualifiers, the man played
42:25
100. or so games in a 12 -month span, you know,
42:32
the concerns are legitimate, but they're outweighed
42:38
by the production. And this is the first, like,
42:41
this is the first year he's really missed a lot
42:44
of time. You know, before that, he had been,
42:47
like, he'd missed some games, but he'd been available.
42:51
He'd been, and the thing is. With a lot of guys,
42:55
when you talk about conditioning, you say, well,
42:57
if he would just commit to this, he has this
43:00
sort of potential. We never were talking about
43:03
Luca's potential because it was proven. He'd
43:08
produced at historic levels. So I'm not going
43:13
to say that the conditioning concerns aren't
43:16
merited, but what I'm going to say is the production
43:18
outweighs them. Okay, so you don't think that
43:21
if Luka suddenly shows up completely shredded,
43:24
he would sort of unlock a whole new level to
43:27
his game, something we've never seen before?
43:30
I think that Luka has left some meat on the bone,
43:34
so to speak. And look, there have been summers.
43:40
Coming out of, I think it was going into Luka's
43:45
fourth year, I believe, maybe third or fourth
43:47
year. Where, you know, like when Luke was working
43:51
out over the summer, you know, you just got to
43:53
check his Instagram feed because he'll show it.
43:55
Right. And it was that summer and, you know,
43:57
he's showing a bunch of workout pictures and
43:59
his old teammate, Courtney Lee at the time commented
44:02
on one of his Instagram posts. He says, skinny
44:05
Luke could go home and be a problem. So there
44:08
have been times where you've seen, you know,
44:10
Luke could put the work in and you've seen him
44:12
come in svelte. And so, yeah. Could this guy
44:17
who's on the path of all -time greatness maybe
44:22
become even greater? Yeah, I think that's certainly
44:24
a possibility. The other thing, though, is you
44:29
don't want Luka necessarily slimming down a lot.
44:33
I think his peak weight, his best weight, would
44:38
be about 245. The people who have worked with
44:40
him, a lot of people who worked with him have
44:42
told me the same. Again, you don't want him to
44:45
weigh 225, 230 because his power is such an important
44:48
part of his game. So the conditioning, it is
44:53
about like, hey, the calf strains are a concern.
44:57
How much is the weight involved there? It's about
45:00
the durability going forward. But I just... He's
45:10
already produced. If you put his numbers up against
45:12
everybody else who's ever played the game at
45:14
the age of 26, he's right up at the top of the
45:16
list. Last two quick questions, Tim. When researching
45:21
this book, what surprised you the most about
45:23
Luca? I don't know necessarily if anything really
45:29
surprised me. I really enjoyed my trip to Slovenia
45:34
and talking to people involved in that because
45:36
that's the part I didn't really know about. And
45:39
so I think the thing I learned the most about
45:41
is just how important loyalty is to Luka, right?
45:47
And I think you saw that last night with the
45:49
tears streaming down his face. But again, it's
45:54
not only that he plays for the Slovenian national
45:56
team every single summer, every single game,
46:00
every time he can, but it's that he plays for
46:03
Slovenia at all, right? Because he had a Spanish
46:07
passport. You know, he's of Serbian descent.
46:09
The Serbia thing is a little bit more complicated.
46:12
But he had never played in an official tournament
46:15
for the Slovenian national program until Eurobasket.
46:18
So going into, you know, before that, if he wanted
46:21
to play for Spain, an established European power,
46:24
he could have. But it was never something he
46:27
considered. Because he's Slovenian. That's his
46:30
homeland. That's his blood. That's where he wanted
46:33
to be. And that's who he wanted to represent.
46:36
And that's who he wanted to spend his summers
46:37
with. And again, to me, that shows you if Luca
46:41
loves you, he respects you, he trusts you, and
46:47
he keeps a tight circle. But if you're in that
46:50
circle, he's going to be loyal to you. And to
46:55
the city of Dallas and to the Mavericks as a
46:57
whole, he felt that sense of loyalty, and it
47:02
was not reciprocated at the end. If LeBron keeps
47:05
playing for a couple more seasons, which seems
47:07
kind of nuts because he's almost 41 and yet he's
47:10
still playing better than 95 % of the other guys
47:13
in the league, do you think it's possible that
47:15
they'll win a chip together? Oh, sure. Sure.
47:18
Listen, it's possible this season. I don't think
47:20
it's likely. I think there's still a transaction
47:23
cycle or two away. If they get a legit starting
47:29
caliber, rim running, rim protecting, lob catching
47:32
center, But, you know, again, it's not impossible
47:38
this year because any series that they play in,
47:41
they will have two of the three best players.
47:44
And they might, in some, they might have one
47:46
and two, one and three. You know, they're going
47:51
to have a chance. And we'll see how long LeBron
47:53
can continue to play at this level. But he's
47:56
already defying, you know, any concept that you
48:01
have of the way. that basketball player ages.
48:04
I mean, at 40s, he's an all NBA player. Luke
48:07
is just entering what should be his prime. And
48:09
by the way, all this talk about conditioning.
48:13
If LeBron doesn't get you into shape, who will?
48:15
Well, but I'll say not even necessarily that
48:18
because he could have followed Dirk's routine.
48:20
He could follow Kyrie's routine. He's had a roadmap.
48:23
The motivation, boy, did the Mavericks hand him
48:25
some motivation. The way he was slapped in the
48:27
face for the world to see. If he doesn't lock
48:30
in on that stuff now, Because I think it does
48:33
that ruthless competitiveness. I think you've
48:37
tapped into that now. But yeah, no, they're absolutely
48:41
going to have a chance. The other thing, when
48:43
you are playing for the Los Angeles Lakers, one
48:45
of the great perks is it's not hard to recruit
48:48
talent. Everybody wants to play in L .A. The
48:51
Lakers for ages have had a massive advantage
48:56
in being able to get players there. And listen,
48:59
there's going to be... especially those type
49:01
of centers, will be lining up to play with Luka
49:05
for the Lakers. Very, very last thing. You had
49:08
a little verbal tussle with Luka, I believe,
49:10
last year when he was like, oh, you're only writing
49:12
bad stuff about me or whatever. What's your relationship
49:15
with him now? You guys grabbing beers together
49:17
yet? We are not grabbing beers. I do often say
49:21
that I think our postgame routines are way too
49:23
similar for his good. You know what, though?
49:28
Hey, we've had a few back and forth in those
49:30
kind of settings. And, you know, that was when
49:33
there was the Devin. The fan ejection thing.
49:36
Yeah. And, you know, he felt like me reporting
49:40
it was intended to make him look bad. It's like,
49:42
no, dude, like if you have an emotional meltdown
49:44
in the middle of the court, it's one of the best
49:47
players in the league. And like the guy was sitting
49:50
literally like two rows behind me. I could reach
49:52
out and smacked him. So I heard everything. I'm
49:55
like, so. My job's not always to write flattering
50:00
things. It's to report fairly and accurately
50:04
and in the proper context. I feel like I've held
50:06
up that end of the bargain. As far as my relationship
50:11
with Luca goes, I shook his hand last night and
50:13
said, hey, man, I wish you the best of luck the
50:16
rest of the way. Hell of a performance. He said,
50:19
hey, hope everything's good. It was a 10 -second
50:21
conversation. We had a conversation. about a
50:25
week after that Booker fan incident, and obviously,
50:27
look, the fans in Dallas are always going to
50:29
take Luka's side, and I still hear about that.
50:33
I still feel the wrath of the fans, whatever.
50:36
It didn't make Luka look good nationally, and
50:40
I talked to him, and I just said, listen, I gave
50:43
him the whole fair, accurate, proper context.
50:46
I said, if you don't think I'm holding up that
50:47
end of the bargain, if you think something's
50:49
inaccurate or not fair, context isn't right.
50:53
I'd really rather have a conversation behind
50:55
the scenes instead of with a public audience.
50:57
I think it's the best for both of us. And he
51:00
shook my hand. And honestly, for the rest of
51:03
his time in Dallas, we were fine. He's not inviting
51:06
me to his birthday parties. Me neither. Yeah,
51:10
he doesn't need me to be his buddy. I don't need
51:13
him to be my buddy. I would say we had a cordial,
51:16
professional relationship. And I'd like to think.
51:20
That will continue, although I won't be covering
51:22
him on a day -to -day basis. Certainly no hard
51:27
feelings on my end. Do you think he's going to
51:30
read your book? You know what? I don't know.
51:34
And I'll be honest with you. I don't know how
51:36
much Luca read anything that I wrote. I don't
51:39
know. There are a lot of players who read everything,
51:42
and then there are a lot of players who hear
51:45
about things from people around them. But they
51:48
don't actually read the stuff. So they'll hear
51:51
about two sentences or they'll scroll Twitter
51:56
or Instagram and see what's aggregated, which
51:58
is like two sentences out of a, you know, 3000
52:01
word story or whatever the case may be. So I
52:04
honestly, I have no idea how much Luca actually
52:07
reads any coverage of him, much less whether
52:11
he could actually read 118 ,000 words. Well,
52:16
I certainly will. Tim, thank you so much for
52:18
this conversation. It was amazing. Where can
52:20
we get your book in Europe? So there is going
52:24
to be a Slovenian translation. And boy, you've
52:29
caught me off guard. I don't have, man, let me
52:32
try to find the publisher here. I don't have
52:37
the publisher's name right. It is one of the
52:40
major Slovenian publishing companies. Okay, I
52:46
might botch the pronunciation. Yeah. I want to
52:49
say Uchila. Uchila, yeah. Uchila International
52:53
will be publishing a Slovenian translation of
52:56
this. What about the rest of Europe? Or if you
52:59
want to read the book in English, are you shipping
53:01
it to Europe? In English, you can go to, you
53:04
know, the easiest way is probably to say go to
53:06
Amazon. It's available in e -books. There is
53:10
an e -book available internationally. I'll be
53:13
honest, I'm not quite sure about, like, shipping
53:15
of a hard copy internationally. I will say there's
53:20
also an audio book. If you get a copy that doesn't
53:25
have the 19th chapter, which was not planned.
53:28
The trade. The trade. Go to my ex -account. Pinned
53:33
is a link with proof of purchase. You can get
53:36
that chapter emailed to you via PDF. It was certainly
53:41
a plot twist and there's certainly a lot there.
53:43
We'll attach the links. Again, thank you so much.
53:47
I know we have to run. I hope we get to do this
53:48
again in the future. All righty. Hey, I really
53:51
appreciate you having me. For listening, please
53:54
subscribe to the podcast on YouTube, follow on
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Spotify and Apple. Podcasts have been told on
53:58
countless YouTube tutorials that I have to say
54:00
this, otherwise nothing happens, which is strange.
54:03
Also, if you feel like it, support me on Patreon.
54:06
I'm playing the world's smallest violin here.
54:09
But this is a one -person pod. I have no production
54:11
team, no nothing. So feel free to hop on Patreon
54:14
and find Smart Cookies on there. And the last,
54:18
but certainly not least, I have to thank my existing
54:20
patrons. Without you, this podcast simply would
54:23
not exist. So thank you so much. That makes you
54:27
actual producers of this show. So eternal thanks
54:30
to Dare. You guys rock. Thank you so much.