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Famous Feuds · Pittsburgh Sports Memories

0:00
SPEAKER_02: Hi everybody, welcome to the Pittsburgh Sports Memories Podcast.
0:04
SPEAKER_02: My name is Tim Hannon and I am joined by uh Steve Wirt.
0:10
SPEAKER_02: Steve Wirt.
0:12
SPEAKER_02: For this episode, we comb through the archives of the Pittsburgh Sports and Memories Podcast to dig up some Pittsburgh Sports feuds from over the years.
0:36
SPEAKER_02: And we're calling this episode Famous Feuds because, you know, alliteration.
0:42
SPEAKER_03: Alliteration in that.
0:43
SPEAKER_02: But we also wanted to share some feuds that maybe you didn't know a whole lot about.
0:48
SPEAKER_03: Well, Sean Rodriguez and the Gatorade bucket.
0:53
SPEAKER_02: That would have been a good feud, yeah.
0:55
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
0:55
SPEAKER_02: I think they've since made a men, so you know, that's good.
0:58
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
0:58
SPEAKER_02: But no, we left that one off, unfortunately.
1:01
SPEAKER_02: Uh Steve, you and I have been friends for a lot of years.
1:03
SPEAKER_02: Have we ever had a feud?
1:05
SPEAKER_03: Uh sure.
1:07
SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
1:09
SPEAKER_03: Not that I remember.
1:10
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I I I yeah.
1:12
SPEAKER_02: I mean, nothing, nothing groundbreaking.
1:14
SPEAKER_03: I mean we're feuding.
1:16
SPEAKER_03: We're feuding like the Hatfields and the McCoys, yeah.
1:20
SPEAKER_02: There was that time that uh you killed Apollo Creed in the ring and I had to come fight you in the Soviet Union.
1:26
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:26
SPEAKER_02: Oh wait, that was that was Rocky IV.
1:29
SPEAKER_02: Uh okay.
1:31
SPEAKER_02: Well, let's let's talk about the Pittsburgh sports feuds.
1:35
SPEAKER_02: Uh the first feud on our list is the one between Steelers quarterback Terry Bradshaw and Steelers head coach Chuck Knoll.
1:43
SPEAKER_02: We did an episode called Biggest Personalities in Pittsburgh Sports History.
1:47
SPEAKER_02: And by the way, we will link all of these episodes that we're referring to in the show notes.
1:52
SPEAKER_02: But we did that episode and we talked about Terry and his relationship with Noel.
1:56
SPEAKER_02: And I think I think this one's pretty well documented, Steve, and well known by the fans, right?
2:01
SPEAKER_02: I think there's been much made about that over the years.
2:04
SPEAKER_03: Well, with Terry not visiting Pittsburgh for years, and then we kind of made up, and then I don't know if he's back to not liking Pittsburgh again, or it's on again, off again.
2:15
SPEAKER_02: It it is.
2:16
SPEAKER_02: Uh one angle that I don't think gets as much attention is uh Hal Bradshaw has kind of shifted his position a lot over the years, and we talked about that here.
2:29
SPEAKER_02: Bradshaw often contradicts himself.
2:31
SPEAKER_02: Uh he was diagnosed years ago with clinical depression and anxiety, and to his credit, he's been very public about that, um, which is you know, which is a courageous thing because it gets other people to then be open about it.
2:43
SPEAKER_02: Um but he's all he's he just contradicts himself often.
2:46
SPEAKER_02: And one one good example of that is his relationship with Chuck Knoll, which a lot has been made about over the years.
2:53
SPEAKER_02: So in 2003, he was at a banquet where Noel was present and he actually apologizes and blames all the issues on himself.
3:01
SPEAKER_02: He says, quote, people say we had trouble, I created that.
3:04
SPEAKER_02: I wasn't as much mad at you, Chuck, as I was mad at me.
3:07
SPEAKER_02: So in 2003, he's you know, when he's talking about the relationship with Noel, he's kind of pinning it all on himself.
3:14
SPEAKER_02: And Chuck was just trying to coach me and I was immature and blah, blah, blah.
3:18
SPEAKER_02: And then in 2020, he gives an interview about it and he says, quote, Chuck did not know how to handle me the way he talked to me.
3:25
SPEAKER_02: Just God, nobody talks to their starting quarterback like that.
3:28
SPEAKER_02: And he just goes on and on about how Chuck Noel berated him and all he ever wanted was a hug.
3:33
SPEAKER_02: And so it's like it's like, which is it, Terry?
3:36
SPEAKER_02: Like, was it your fault?
3:37
SPEAKER_02: His fault was a little bit of column A, a little bit of column B.
3:40
SPEAKER_02: I I mean, Bradshaw just that's why I again we we we did that episode where we played the clip where he was critical of Tomlin.
3:48
SPEAKER_02: And I just I like Terry Bradshaw and he's real entertaining, but his opinions are so irrelevant to me because they're all over the map.
3:58
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, he lacks consistency.
4:01
SPEAKER_03: I would definitely you can tell that just from that.
4:04
SPEAKER_03: I for I forgot about that quote actually.
4:06
SPEAKER_03: And I I I don't know.
4:08
SPEAKER_03: Like if he just like you wonder if he forgets what he said, or it's just he's so off the cuff he's not thinking about uh what he said like five minutes ago.
4:18
SPEAKER_03: He's just you know living in the kind of the moment there.
4:21
SPEAKER_03: So I I don't know.
4:23
SPEAKER_03: Maybe his opinion changed.
4:25
SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
4:25
SPEAKER_02: No, I think I think you're spot on, Steve.
4:27
SPEAKER_02: I think he's absolutely off the cuff living in the moment, not trying to craft like a message, like he's not a politician, he's not trying to craft a consistent message, he's just speaking what he feels at that moment.
4:39
SPEAKER_02: And that's fine.
4:40
SPEAKER_02: Again, that's why that's one of the things that made him popular.
4:43
SPEAKER_02: It's one of the reasons I mean, a lot of guys that retired in 1983 are not still world famous or or well known today, and Terry Bratta is because you know his personality kind of enabled him to be in the limelight long after football.
4:59
SPEAKER_03: I definitely don't, I mean, even Roger Stahlbach or like Tony Dorsett, or like you know, I'm trying to think of other big players from that.
5:06
SPEAKER_03: Even Joe Montana, like, you know, you don't see him on in TV or is in TV shows as much as you know, Chuck Knoll and all that.
5:13
SPEAKER_03: So or not Chuck Knoll, I mean Terry, my bad.
5:16
SPEAKER_02: Oh yes, yeah.
5:17
SPEAKER_02: Chuck Knoll did not have Chuck Knoll was not moving on TV for years.
5:20
SPEAKER_02: after you returned.
5:25
SPEAKER_03: Ever.
5:25
SPEAKER_03: It's not gonna happen.
5:27
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
5:30
SPEAKER_02: Uh Terry Bradshaw definitely a divisive stewards quarterback with the fan base, like like you mentioned, Steve, the on again, off again.
5:39
SPEAKER_02: A guy who was maybe even more divisive in terms of what the fans thought of him, and in fact had an ongoing feud with the fan base was a guy that wore number 10 in the 90s.
5:49
SPEAKER_02: Remember him?
5:51
SPEAKER_02: Oh, yes, yes, Cordell.
5:54
SPEAKER_02: Um, Steve, you you did an entire episode about him, and we talked about when the fans really turned on him.
6:02
SPEAKER_03: And I would say this, like, you know, another reason maybe, you know, racism, you know, was people and rumors like Cordell's, there was always rumors about his sexuality.
6:11
SPEAKER_03: Was that just like stealth racism?
6:13
SPEAKER_03: You didn't want to sound like a racist, so you would say, Oh, he's you know, whatever, you know.
6:19
SPEAKER_03: People would call him gay, and it was always like, oh, my second brother's cousin do some do this or that.
6:24
SPEAKER_03: And it was always like stupid rumors.
6:26
SPEAKER_02: Well, and and it's it's hard.
6:28
SPEAKER_02: And and you you you have it in the notes here, like it's tough to read people's minds.
6:32
SPEAKER_02: Like you don't know what their where their motivation is always coming from.
6:35
SPEAKER_02: But some of the stuff that was directed at Cordell was just so vicious and angry.
6:41
SPEAKER_02: And I don't know.
6:43
SPEAKER_02: I like people we weren't we were too young to remember the the anger that was directed at Bradshaw.
6:50
SPEAKER_02: But a lot of people really hated Bradshaw too for a while.
6:52
SPEAKER_03: Well, people didn't like mean O'Donnell, but it was never to that level.
6:56
SPEAKER_03: It was just like, oh, he threw those interceptions, which I can understand.
6:58
SPEAKER_03: You know, that's a fan, and you know I I think that's more of a fair criticism than this.
7:04
SPEAKER_03: This is just like somebody just made this up.
7:06
SPEAKER_03: And O'Donnell.
7:07
SPEAKER_02: There's literally somebody just made this up as well as O'Donnell's career arc with the Steelers wasn't the same as any of those other guys.
7:13
SPEAKER_02: Like O'Donnell sort of like was a game manager, and then he like progressively got better every season until he threw those interceptions at the Super Bowl, then he didn't stick around long enough to he left after that.
7:24
SPEAKER_02: So I don't know if there was a whole arc there.
7:26
SPEAKER_02: I mean, Ben's had a couple ups and downs in his career, and there's been viciousness thrown his way, but boy, Cordell.
7:33
SPEAKER_03: Well, I think Ben's though, like it isn't like stuff people made stuff out of Hulk.
7:37
SPEAKER_03: Although I've heard like weird rumors about Ben, too.
7:40
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but the Cordell thing was much more prominent.
7:42
SPEAKER_02: And like you said, everybody was sure because they had a source inside the R.
7:46
SPEAKER_03: Whereas like Ben, it's like it's you can't like, you know, Ben, like the the couple incidents is there's been a couple well publicized incidents.
7:54
SPEAKER_03: Then there's been some other rumored incidents, but but it's like, well, if these other incidents, and that definitely happened, you know, could have this, you know, I don't know.
8:02
SPEAKER_02: The rumors about his sexuality seemed to start when he cried on the sidelines.
8:06
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
8:07
SPEAKER_02: Which which seemed like almost too convenient.
8:09
SPEAKER_02: Like, well, he's crying on the sidelines, so that means he's not a real man.
8:15
SPEAKER_02: But it's it is hard to ignore race when you think about the just like I said, the viciousness of some of the things were said about him.
8:23
SPEAKER_02: And and like you said, it who knows what people were really thinking, but boy, it's hard to it's hard to not at least factor that in.
8:29
SPEAKER_03: And uh and Bill Cower went through it too.
8:32
SPEAKER_03: Uh just you know, Cordell wasn't the only person that this was directed at.
8:36
SPEAKER_03: Um Kay Cower, his late wife, actually addressed it.
8:40
SPEAKER_03: Here's an ironic thing.
8:41
SPEAKER_03: In October 2017, uh Cordell actually won a$3 million default judgment in Atlanta against uh a YouTuber, I guess it was some guy on the internet named Andrew Caldwell, who claimed he had sexual encounter with Stewart and Stewart had given him expensive gifts.
8:56
SPEAKER_03: Stewart denied these claims.
8:58
SPEAKER_03: Caldwell later recanted the claim and denied that it had ever happened.
9:03
SPEAKER_03: And he actually got court actually got a judgment against this guy for three million dollars in court.
9:09
SPEAKER_03: So I mean, there you you know, so it it just I don't know why it just keeps dogging him like this and like people just making it up, obviously.
9:20
SPEAKER_03: And he literally lost a court case.
9:22
SPEAKER_03: You've lost three million dollars over this.
9:23
SPEAKER_03: I hope it was worth getting your five minutes of fame on YouTube.
9:27
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
9:27
SPEAKER_03: And that was after 2017, he hadn't played football in five years.
9:33
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, who who would even care at that point?
9:35
SPEAKER_02: I yeah, I I don't know.
9:37
SPEAKER_02: It was just you're right, it was a lot of anger, people were angry at Cower.
9:41
SPEAKER_02: Then there was people that said Cower had an affair.
9:44
SPEAKER_03: With the secretary, and that's what the K Cower quotes are about.
9:47
SPEAKER_02: Well, I had also the other rumor was that Cower was sleeping with Cordell's sister or something.
9:51
SPEAKER_02: That's why I never heard that.
9:53
SPEAKER_02: That's why he kept starting him, was because uh again, so many ridiculous rumors, but but it was it it only took one season.
10:00
SPEAKER_02: Like usually you'd think it would take a whole bunch of bad seasons.
10:04
SPEAKER_02: He was in the AFC championship game in '97, and by like the next calendar year, he was, you know, have like in all these terrible off-the-field situations and hated.
10:16
SPEAKER_02: I mean, it it the town really, really turned on him quick.
10:19
unknown: Trevor Burrus, Jr.
10:20
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, which was unfortunate.
10:21
SPEAKER_03: It was.
10:22
SPEAKER_03: And it wasn't over just like play on the field either.
10:24
SPEAKER_03: It was just like these stupid little like just made-up rumors.
10:28
SPEAKER_03: That's unfair.
10:29
SPEAKER_03: That's unfair to him.
10:30
SPEAKER_03: It was unfair to him.
10:31
SPEAKER_03: It really was.
10:32
SPEAKER_02: And like you said, there was there were other things happening with the team at that time.
10:36
SPEAKER_02: It they just I think people got so used to the early success of the coward teams and expected to be in the playoffs every year.
10:42
SPEAKER_02: And it wasn't just Cordell, it was it was a lot of other things happening with the front office and everything else that you mentioned.
10:48
SPEAKER_02: So it wasn't all his fault.
10:50
SPEAKER_02: Um certainly he he it was a bunch of his fault, but it wasn't all his fault.
10:54
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and in my opinion, I think I I could kind of compare Cordell to like Tim Tebow.
11:00
SPEAKER_03: He he's like a decent quarterback in a certain type of offense, but he just wasn't like uh good enough at that position to really carry you to a championship.
11:13
SPEAKER_02: Probably the oldest feud we covered was the one between Donnie Bush and Kiki Kyler.
11:19
SPEAKER_02: Steve remembered Donnie Bush.
11:21
SPEAKER_03: Oh, for sure.
11:22
SPEAKER_03: And I used to go to those games back in 1924.
11:25
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, those were those were those were good ones, man.
11:28
SPEAKER_02: That was that was when baseball was baseball.
11:31
SPEAKER_03: Men were men and women were women, and honest Wagner was dating a 20-year-old.
11:39
SPEAKER_02: Uh that that feud came from an episode we did called The Three Lost Rings.
11:43
SPEAKER_02: Uh, we did an episode about the best Steeler team, the best penguin team, and the best pirate teams who uh failed to win a championship.
11:52
SPEAKER_02: And the pirates team we talked about was the 1927 club, who actually ends up having a lot of internal drama going on, especially between those two guys, and it ultimately led to disaster.
12:05
SPEAKER_02: No one's really sure what to expect from the pirates.
12:08
SPEAKER_02: They do have a new manager since they had fired McKechnie.
12:11
SPEAKER_02: It's a guy named Donnie Bush, which I feel like is a great Pittsburgh name.
12:15
SPEAKER_02: Donnie Bush is going to get them pirates playing right.
12:20
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you can guys know who the new manager is, Donnie Bush.
12:24
SPEAKER_02: So just like the 76 Stewarters with the Bradshaw injury, just like the 93 Penguins with Mario's cancer diagnosis, the the 1927 Pirates experienced some heavy adversity also.
12:34
SPEAKER_02: Unfortunately, unlike those other two teams, this adversity is very much self-inflicted.
12:41
SPEAKER_02: So, as we mentioned, Donnie Bush is the manager, and he has a feud with Pirate Star Kiki Kyler.
12:48
SPEAKER_02: Kyler is unhappy about being switched from third to second in the batting order, and allegedly he doesn't play very hard for a few games to protest.
12:57
SPEAKER_02: And then there's a game against the Giants where he doesn't slide into second base on a double play ball to try to break up the double play, and Bush fines him$50, which I think was probably a lot in 1927.
13:07
SPEAKER_02: $50.
13:09
SPEAKER_03: Well, what's that rank for inflation?
13:12
SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
13:13
SPEAKER_02: Uh it's more than$50 today, I can tell you that.
13:17
SPEAKER_02: Uh Donnie Bush basically bent his Kiki Kyler for the last two months of the regular season.
13:23
SPEAKER_02: What the heck?
13:24
SPEAKER_02: And this does this does not go over well with the fans.
13:26
SPEAKER_02: Kyler was a World Series hero, and the fans are coming to Forbes Field literally chanting for Kyler to be put in the game.
13:34
SPEAKER_02: Bush tries to explain his decision in the media.
13:37
SPEAKER_02: He says, Oh, there's nothing personal against Kyler.
13:39
SPEAKER_02: He's just not playing up to standards and blah, blah, blah.
13:43
SPEAKER_03: But that's that's a little bit of horsemanure because Kyler was he felt his war was slipping.
13:49
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, right.
13:50
SPEAKER_02: That's exactly right.
13:52
SPEAKER_02: Donnie Bush was in the stats.
13:54
SPEAKER_02: Kyler was hitting 309 at the time.
13:58
SPEAKER_03: Well, he doesn't believe in batting average.
14:01
SPEAKER_03: Right.
14:01
SPEAKER_02: It's all about the about the OBS and well, the the other thing is the guys that he's replaced being replaced with are basically like minor league call-ops.
14:09
SPEAKER_02: Oh so this sounds like he's saying it's not personal, but it sounds personal.
14:13
SPEAKER_02: And in fact, years later, Donnie Bush gives an interview where he finally admits that it was.
14:18
SPEAKER_02: He says, What happened is that he used to always argue with Kiki Kyler about throwing too high for the cutoff man.
14:25
SPEAKER_02: And one day, Kyler's coming in um to the bench, and Bush says to him, Won't you ever learn to throw the ball?
14:31
SPEAKER_02: And Kyler says, You know what?
14:33
SPEAKER_02: If you don't like the way I play, then get somebody else.
14:35
SPEAKER_02: And Bush says, Okay, I will.
14:37
SPEAKER_02: And that's literally what happens.
14:41
SPEAKER_02: He's like, he's like, okay, I will.
14:42
SPEAKER_02: And then to prove a point, he benches him for two months, the last two months of the season.
14:47
SPEAKER_03: Instead of just like a game or two or a series, no, literally what August and September.
14:54
SPEAKER_02: Here's Donnie Bush years later, quote, it had to be that way.
14:58
SPEAKER_02: I had to maintain discipline.
14:59
SPEAKER_02: The real reason I benched him for was for what he said to me after the high throw.
15:04
SPEAKER_02: I had great respect for Kyler as a player.
15:06
SPEAKER_02: If he had apologized to me, I would have put him back in the lineup, but he never did.
15:10
SPEAKER_02: End quote.
15:11
SPEAKER_02: So that's some pretty impressive stubbornness.
15:14
SPEAKER_02: Right?
15:15
SPEAKER_02: Two months.
15:17
SPEAKER_02: That's that's holding it, Grass.
15:18
SPEAKER_02: I think the other interesting thing, Steve, is that 100 years ago, fans took the side of the player, whereas I feel like that would be reversed today.
15:26
SPEAKER_02: You think?
15:28
SPEAKER_02: Well, think of think about like Antonio Brown and Le'Veon Bell.
15:31
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that's true.
15:32
SPEAKER_02: When was the last time anyone ever cited sided with a diva player?
15:36
SPEAKER_02: Probably 1927.
15:40
SPEAKER_02: Is the answer to that question.
15:42
SPEAKER_02: I mean, seriously.
15:43
SPEAKER_03: What is 90, 95 years ago?
15:46
SPEAKER_03: What do you think?
15:48
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean, Kiki Kyler was I I I diva's.
15:52
SPEAKER_02: I don't know if he was a diva.
15:53
SPEAKER_02: I mean but he's he's intentionally.
15:55
SPEAKER_02: For that era, maybe.
15:57
SPEAKER_02: Well, I mean, he's he's in potentially like like taking plays off to protest.
16:02
SPEAKER_02: He's you know, he's he's basically being a smart mouth to his coach, you know, like, oh, you know, you don't like you don't like it, go get somebody else, right?
16:11
SPEAKER_02: So uh that that for that era, that's kind of diva-ish.
16:15
SPEAKER_02: And I feel like again, if that were today, the yeah, Benjamin, don't put we don't need that to bring in the team cancer and everything else.
16:23
SPEAKER_02: So, but at that point, the fans were mad at the manager, not at Kiki Kyler.
16:30
SPEAKER_02: So even without Kiki Kyler, the Py the Pirates do battle their way past New York and St.
16:34
SPEAKER_02: Louis, they win the pennant.
16:36
SPEAKER_02: Their opponent in the World Series that year is the New York Yankees, who happen to be arguably the greatest baseball team of all time.
16:44
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
16:45
SPEAKER_02: Game one of the World Series is at Pittsburgh, and the Yankees score a bunch of runs early.
16:50
SPEAKER_02: The Pirates battle back.
16:52
SPEAKER_02: In the bottom of the ninth inning, the Yankees are clinging to a five-four lead, and the pitcher spot is due up.
16:57
SPEAKER_02: So Donnie Bush needs to send out a pinch hitter.
17:00
SPEAKER_02: Guess who's on the bench, Steve?
17:02
SPEAKER_03: Kiki Kyler.
17:03
SPEAKER_02: It's Hall of Fame World Series hero, Kiki Kyler.
17:07
SPEAKER_02: But instead, Donnie Bush sends up a guy named Fred Bickle, Fred Brickle, a reserve outfielder who only had 21 at bats during the whole season, and he grounds out to the pitcher when the Pirates lose.
17:20
SPEAKER_02: That's that's insane.
17:22
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, the fans cannot believe that Donnie Bush would basically sacrifice a chance to win the first game of the World Series because he's mad at Kiki Kyler.
17:31
SPEAKER_02: 1927 Twitter lights up with firebook hashtags.
17:35
SPEAKER_02: Right?
17:35
SPEAKER_02: The ticker, the ticker on the little thing.
17:39
SPEAKER_03: Well, I mean, I again The Pittsburgh Post Gazette is saying, ah my gosh, the comments section in the Pittsburgh.
17:46
SPEAKER_02: Right.
17:46
SPEAKER_02: It's really comments section.
17:50
SPEAKER_03: Letters to the editor.
17:51
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I guess.
17:51
SPEAKER_02: Dear sir, I am highly offended by the actions of our manager.
17:57
SPEAKER_02: But I mean, but seriously, I mean, they needed, you know, it's five to four.
18:02
SPEAKER_02: All they need is a run to tie the game.
18:04
SPEAKER_03: And they you have to put your best player out there.
18:07
SPEAKER_03: Or like one of your best players, yeah.
18:10
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean, like I said, really impressive level of pettiness and stubbornness and grudge holding on the part of Donnie Bush.
18:17
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
18:18
SPEAKER_02: Uh the issue, oh, the the issue is so bad.
18:21
SPEAKER_02: So the owner of the team at that point is Barney Dreyfus, who we've talked about before.
18:25
SPEAKER_02: And Barney Dreyfus even has to issue a statement because there's so much fear about this.
18:30
SPEAKER_02: But it's kind of a weak statement, Steve.
18:31
SPEAKER_02: Here's what he says: quote, it is solely an issue between Bush and Kyler.
18:35
SPEAKER_02: If Bush wants to play Kyler at any time, he is free to do so.
18:38
SPEAKER_03: Well, what the heck does that mean?
18:41
SPEAKER_03: He is free to do so.
18:43
SPEAKER_03: Like it's his team.
18:45
SPEAKER_03: He's gonna yeah.
18:46
SPEAKER_02: Washing his hands of it.
18:48
SPEAKER_02: I mean, you're the owner, right?
18:50
SPEAKER_02: Like, but so that was I thought that was kind of weird.
18:53
SPEAKER_02: Barney Darthus did a lot of great things, but I thought that statement was kind of weak.
18:56
SPEAKER_03: Maybe he handled it behind closed doors, or maybe not.
19:00
SPEAKER_02: Well, let's see.
19:01
SPEAKER_03: I mean, for a guy that let Fred Clark sing in the dugout, I don't know.
19:04
SPEAKER_03: True.
19:05
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
19:06
SPEAKER_02: The issue the issue does come up again in game two at Forbes Field.
19:10
SPEAKER_02: In the eighth inning of that game, the Yankees are winning big, but the Pirates are trying to stage a comeback, and again, the Pirates need a pinch hitter.
19:17
SPEAKER_02: And here's the New York Times recap of that game.
19:20
SPEAKER_02: I'll just gonna read a quote from the New York Times and I'm gonna try to read it 1927 journalistic.
19:26
SPEAKER_02: Quote, okay, the fans rose by the thousands and set up a deafening clamor for Kiki Kyler, but Donnie Bush was obdurate and called on Earl Smith amid a storm of boos and jeers and catcalls.
19:38
SPEAKER_02: Stead citizens jumped up and waved their fists in Bush's direction when Smith grounded weakly to Lou Gehrig.
19:45
SPEAKER_02: Another chorus of derisive tears and laughter greeted the failure of Kyler's substitute.
19:51
SPEAKER_02: New York Times.
19:53
SPEAKER_03: Wow, that sounded like something from uh what's his name?
19:56
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, can't say that's that's what I was going for.
19:59
SPEAKER_03: Thank you.
19:59
SPEAKER_03: I appreciate that.
20:00
SPEAKER_02: I'll take that as a compliment.
20:02
SPEAKER_02: So so again, not gonna play Kiki Kyler, gonna put up some bum, and everybody's not happy.
20:08
SPEAKER_02: The Pirates drop the first two games at home.
20:10
SPEAKER_02: The Yankees blow them out in game three in New York.
20:13
SPEAKER_02: So now the Pirates have their backs to the ball in game four.
20:17
SPEAKER_02: They play a good game.
20:18
SPEAKER_02: The Wayner brothers are hitting well, and the game is tied going into the bottom of the ninth inning.
20:23
SPEAKER_02: But the Yankees get the first two men on base, and guess who's up at the plate?
20:27
SPEAKER_02: It's Babe freaking Ruth with the series on the line.
20:32
SPEAKER_02: So you don't want to pitch to him.
20:33
SPEAKER_02: The Pirates intentionally walk him, which means now Pirates pitcher Johnny Milges has the bases loaded with nobody out, and Lou Gehrig is up at the plate.
20:42
SPEAKER_03: Well, that was uh that was like what do they call that?
20:45
SPEAKER_03: A uh pick your poison.
20:47
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, pretty much.
20:49
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
20:49
SPEAKER_02: So, I mean, really, all Lou Gehrig has to do here is hit a fly ball to the outfield, and that's the end of the series.
20:55
SPEAKER_02: But Johnny Mildges strikes out Lou Gehrig, then he strikes out a second murderous rogue guy, Bob Mugual.
21:03
SPEAKER_02: And now Tony Lazari is up, and the Pirates are about to get out of this huge jam to save their season when Johnny Mill just a wild pitch.
21:12
SPEAKER_02: The runner from third scores, and that's how the season ends.
21:16
SPEAKER_03: It's kind of anticlimatic.
21:20
SPEAKER_02: Uh, when you think of feuds and people being angry and fighting with each other, uh, would Troy Palomalu be like the absolute last guy you would think of, Steve?
21:30
SPEAKER_03: Uh, probably, yeah.
21:32
SPEAKER_03: It would be pretty tough to have a feud with Troy Palomalu.
21:35
SPEAKER_04: It'd be like, okay, man.
21:37
SPEAKER_04: Cool.
21:38
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I don't know.
21:39
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, Troy Troy pretty easy going.
21:41
SPEAKER_02: Well, Troy did get into it with one Steeler teammate, uh, and we talked about that in our messy exits episode that we did documenting the guys who left Pittsburgh on bad terms.
21:51
SPEAKER_02: So who is that guy?
21:53
SPEAKER_02: Who who's the guy that could make even Troy Palomalo angry?
21:57
SPEAKER_02: We talked about it here.
22:01
SPEAKER_03: So now the next group of Steeler uh messy exits will be Mike Tomlin headaches.
22:08
SPEAKER_03: So I think we all can know we'll just we won't we won't hold this one out any longer because who do you think will be A number one on this list, Tim?
22:17
SPEAKER_03: Um some guy that wore number 84, probably.
22:21
SPEAKER_03: Yes, yes.
22:22
SPEAKER_03: I mean I realize there's kind of like a 1A and a 1B in this situation there for sure.
22:27
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I I think the 1A is is tops of the list.
22:31
SPEAKER_02: And and the one and number 84, I mean, there are like multiple uh cities sports memory podcasts that could put him on the same list.
22:42
SPEAKER_03: Well, let's let's go through it, Tim.
22:44
SPEAKER_03: Here, but let's break it down.
22:45
SPEAKER_03: If you have a guess, this is one Antonio Brown.
22:48
SPEAKER_03: Um, he was selected in the sixth round.
22:51
SPEAKER_03: He was actually the 22nd out of 27 wide receivers that were picked in the whole draft.
22:56
SPEAKER_03: So it was towards the bottom.
22:58
SPEAKER_03: Gee, I wonder why.
23:00
SPEAKER_03: So what did he do?
23:01
SPEAKER_03: He only went on to have a Hall of Fame career as a wide receiver.
23:05
SPEAKER_03: Um, his stats are unbelievable.
23:08
SPEAKER_03: The catches he made were like, I'm looking at some of them now.
23:11
SPEAKER_03: He had for three years, wow, geez, man.
23:15
SPEAKER_03: I only went to 2019.
23:16
SPEAKER_03: He's been over a hundred receptions from 2000.
23:21
SPEAKER_03: Is that oh my gosh, that's from like 2012 to 2019.
23:25
SPEAKER_03: He had a hundred receptions every year.
23:27
SPEAKER_03: That's insane.
23:28
SPEAKER_03: Now, some of that was him.
23:30
SPEAKER_03: I gotta get my five catches and blah, blah, blah, yards.
23:34
SPEAKER_03: So that might be a little inflated, but that's still pretty impressive.
23:38
SPEAKER_03: I mean, these aren't just like tipping the scales, like these are 100, well, one year was 101, but 110, 129, 136.
23:45
SPEAKER_03: You're at 100 passes, like 80 passes in a year is pretty good.
23:50
SPEAKER_03: But 100, that's impressive.
23:53
SPEAKER_03: So, how did this all go awry?
23:55
SPEAKER_03: Well, this guy's had like, I know Ryan Clark didn't like him.
23:59
SPEAKER_03: He said they were gonna offer him money, and he said, if you give him money, you're going to create a monster.
24:05
SPEAKER_03: And uh him, he said, like him and Brown almost got in a fight, and he started like saying things to Coach LeBeau, and he was like screaming at Coach LeBeau and like, don't touch me on the franchise, is what Brown said.
24:18
SPEAKER_03: Troy Paul Molly didn't like him, and I guess it was the same incident.
24:21
SPEAKER_03: He got so mad at him, he said the wide receivers coach Scotty Montgomery, the receivers are live targets the rest of the period.
24:29
SPEAKER_03: Which so Troy wanted to start going and like hitting Antonio Brown, like for real.
24:36
SPEAKER_03: So I mean you pissed off Troy Puller.
24:40
SPEAKER_03: Ryan Clark, maybe, but Troy Paul Malo, really?
24:44
SPEAKER_03: Come on.
24:46
SPEAKER_02: Uh, we did an episode called The Goal That Saved the Penguins, and it was about a goal that Yarmir Jagger scored that he and a bunch of other people think literally kept the team in town.
24:57
SPEAKER_02: So that's a really interesting story to go check out.
24:59
SPEAKER_02: But in that episode, we talked about a feud between Penguins winger Matthew Barnaby and future penguin Lyle Odoline.
25:09
SPEAKER_02: The first uh round playoff opponent is the number one seed, and that's the New Jersey Devils.
25:15
SPEAKER_02: Uh, we mentioned the Devils before when we talked about the trap and this era of clutch and grab.
25:21
SPEAKER_02: Um no franchise perfected that style like the New Jersey Devils.
25:26
SPEAKER_02: They are the absolute powerhouse team of this era.
25:29
SPEAKER_02: Between 1995 and 2003, they win the Eastern Conference four different times, and they win the Stanley Cup three times.
25:37
SPEAKER_02: And and so game one uh is in New Jersey, and the Devils win.
25:42
SPEAKER_02: It's a close game.
25:42
SPEAKER_02: Uh the Penguins actually outshoot the Devils in in game one, but Brodeur makes some big saves, and then the series like right off the bat gets ugly.
25:50
SPEAKER_02: Uh the Penguins had acquired uh Matthew Barnaby in a late season trade.
25:55
SPEAKER_02: Matthew Barnaby, Steve, how would you describe him?
25:58
SPEAKER_02: He's not a goon.
25:59
SPEAKER_03: No, he's like one of those classic agitators.
26:02
SPEAKER_03: Like he's not gonna like, I mean, he'll fight you, but that's not like he's not like who Donald Brashir or like, you know, Ty Domey.
26:12
SPEAKER_03: I know I already mentioned it.
26:13
SPEAKER_03: He's not like a fighter, he's more of like an instigator where he tries to get you to take a penalty.
26:18
SPEAKER_03: He'll do like little cross checks when, or like, you know, when they get in the glass and they put their glove up in the face, you know, give them a face wash, like stuff like that, like stuff that's not necessarily a penalty.
26:30
SPEAKER_03: Sean Avery, perfect example, like stand in front of that.
26:33
SPEAKER_03: Was my favorite, but he did was that Brodor or Halunquit?
26:37
SPEAKER_03: That was Brodore because he played for the Rangers.
26:39
SPEAKER_03: And he could they remember the NHL had to change the role the next day because he put his hand in front of Brodor's?
26:44
SPEAKER_03: Yes.
26:45
SPEAKER_02: Yes, yeah.
26:47
SPEAKER_03: Sean Avery is probably a perfect example of that.
26:49
SPEAKER_02: Yes, and and if you remember Sean Avery, you're right.
26:51
SPEAKER_02: Matthew Barnaby was a very similar player to Avery.
26:54
SPEAKER_03: And he wasn't a goon.
26:55
SPEAKER_03: He wasn't a great player, he was like a mediocre player, but he just would just get under people's skin, just do it, like I said, like literally putting your hand in front of Bird Horse, right?
27:04
SPEAKER_03: And you didn't know who to root for in that case.
27:06
SPEAKER_02: You're like, oh, yeah, and and Barnaby, so so getting under the skin, he immediately um ignites a feud with Devil's Defenseman Lyle Odoline.
27:17
SPEAKER_02: Actually, I should say reignites because that's actually a long-standing feud, Barnaby and Odoline from Barnaby's Days in Buffalo.
27:25
SPEAKER_02: And um he calls Odoline Cornelius.
27:28
SPEAKER_02: Um I've never seen Planet of the Apes, Steve, but apparently he thinks that.
27:33
SPEAKER_02: I don't know why you didn't go with Dr.
27:34
SPEAKER_03: Sayus.
27:36
SPEAKER_03: Did you ever remember The Simpsons at the musical verse for Troy McClellan?
27:40
SPEAKER_02: Honestly, that's my like only out of me.
27:49
SPEAKER_03: That's not how the movie ends.
27:50
SPEAKER_02: No, no, no.
27:51
SPEAKER_03: I I know.
27:53
SPEAKER_03: But it's a great movie.
27:54
SPEAKER_03: You should really watch it.
27:55
SPEAKER_03: It's uh it's the opposite of what the uh Troy McClure version is.
28:01
SPEAKER_03: I digress.
28:03
SPEAKER_03: So Cornelius was the young uh kid who was kind of like didn't was kind of uh naive.
28:09
SPEAKER_02: So I but he looks like an ape, right?
28:13
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and so I guess probably more of what I guess Matthew Barnaby was hinting at, not that his this guy, maybe this guy was naive, I don't know.
28:22
SPEAKER_02: Right, right.
28:22
SPEAKER_02: And so Odiline then is quoted as saying um that Barnaby's wife Christina is quote, god-awful to look at.
28:30
SPEAKER_02: So yeah, I mean they're just taking like real personal shots at each other.
28:35
SPEAKER_02: So that's that's kind of adds some fun to the series.
28:40
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, Matthew Barnaby really had the ability to get under people's skin, but I think the absolute king of psyching people out is Joey Porter.
28:48
SPEAKER_02: Uh we could do a whole episode of just Joey Porter feuds, and in fact, we didn't do a whole episode about JPZ, which we titled Things to Do in Denver When You've Been Shot, the Joey Porter story.
28:58
SPEAKER_02: Steve, kudos to you.
28:59
SPEAKER_02: That was your title idea, I believe.
29:02
SPEAKER_02: Very crazy.
29:03
SPEAKER_02: It was uh one of Porter's most famous feuds started right before Super Bowl 40 after Seattle Seahawks tight end Jeremy Stevens answered a question about Jerome Bettis possibly playing his final ever game in his hometown of Detroit.
29:23
SPEAKER_03: So um moving on like that same season, Super Bowl 40.
29:27
SPEAKER_03: Um Jeremy Stevens, you remember what Jeremy Stevens exactly said?
29:31
SPEAKER_03: It was like it's a nice story, but it's gonna be sad when the loses or something like that.
29:36
SPEAKER_02: It was it was very innocent.
29:37
SPEAKER_02: That's what I remember.
29:39
SPEAKER_02: It wasn't like Jeremy Stevens was getting up there with the intent to trash talk or or put the Steelers down.
29:46
SPEAKER_02: I mean, I don't think you know, I don't think he meant anything by it.
29:52
SPEAKER_02: But oh boy, did Killy Porter take it that way.
29:55
SPEAKER_03: So in you know, Jeremy Porter, I guess some guys just need a reason to get fired up, gets fired up, and he says, I've been asleep all week, but now I got woke up, Porter said.
30:08
SPEAKER_03: I've got my first taste of blood, and now I'm thirsty for more.
30:12
SPEAKER_03: So he wants to drink blood?
30:14
SPEAKER_03: Okay.
30:15
SPEAKER_03: What's it?
30:16
SPEAKER_03: Okay, count Porter.
30:20
SPEAKER_03: Until now it was watch what I say.
30:22
SPEAKER_03: I can't say this, I can't say that, don't do anything silly, but I'm ready now.
30:26
SPEAKER_03: You look for the guys that say something that aren't supposed to say nothing, and I feel like he was definitely out of pocket to say what he said.
30:34
SPEAKER_03: I'm going to make sure he owns up to those words.
30:38
SPEAKER_03: So that was on Jeremy Stevens.
30:40
SPEAKER_03: He did have three tackles in the Super Bowl, so I remember did he have that?
30:44
SPEAKER_03: I didn't know K2, right?
30:46
SPEAKER_03: He didn't have like great.
30:47
SPEAKER_02: Well, it was less about how good of a Super Bowl Joey Porter had, and more about how awful of a Super Bowl Jeremy Stevens.
30:53
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, Jeremy Stevens dropped a pass on fourth and one.
30:56
SPEAKER_03: I remember that.
30:57
SPEAKER_03: I think he got a call holding call too.
30:59
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
30:59
SPEAKER_02: He he Jeremy Stevens had a terrible game.
31:01
SPEAKER_02: He dropped several passes, key passes.
31:04
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
31:05
SPEAKER_02: I think I think the one that that iced the game, like where the Steelers took over on Downs and took a knee.
31:10
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
31:10
SPEAKER_02: I think that was a Jeremy Stevens drop.
31:12
SPEAKER_02: So I you know, it it was funny because in the in the Super Bowl uh DVD thing that year, Cower Cow said that Porter came to him.
31:23
SPEAKER_02: He's like, I think you're gonna be mad at me.
31:24
SPEAKER_02: And Cow took, oh no, what are you gonna do?
31:27
SPEAKER_02: And and and I remember that at the time, I was just kind of shaking my head.
31:31
SPEAKER_02: I'm like, oh man, we we just we're we're in the Super Bowl, we don't need a distraction.
31:35
SPEAKER_02: This kind of stuff is stupid.
31:37
SPEAKER_02: And then Jeremy Stevens goes out there and just totally uh lays a neck.
31:42
SPEAKER_02: I mean, he was he was just awful.
31:43
SPEAKER_02: And the Seahawks had the best offense in the league that year, and he was a good tight end.
31:48
SPEAKER_02: And um, and so like it worked.
31:49
SPEAKER_02: It was amazing to me that that worked, just like it worked on the Colts several weeks earlier.
31:55
SPEAKER_02: Like, like that Joey Porter was he had the uncanny ability to do that.
31:59
SPEAKER_02: Every every other player, you shake your head, you're like, don't do that, don't get that motivation.
32:03
SPEAKER_02: Remember like Anthony Smith with the Patriots.
32:05
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I yeah.
32:06
SPEAKER_02: What are you doing?
32:07
SPEAKER_02: Stop.
32:08
SPEAKER_02: Just shut your mouth.
32:10
SPEAKER_02: Uh but for some reason when Joey Porter did it, it got in people's heads, and sure enough, they win the Super Bowl and Jeremy Stevens stings.
32:20
SPEAKER_02: Our next feud is actually between two non-Pittsburgh groups of people.
32:24
SPEAKER_02: It's Wayne Gretzky versus the New Jersey Devils.
32:27
SPEAKER_02: So why would we talk about that feud?
32:30
SPEAKER_03: You're a big Devils fan, aren't you, Jim?
32:32
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I'm a cloud devils fan, and I'm still bitter about Wayne Gretzky in that feud, no.
32:37
SPEAKER_02: Uh no, we we actually did an episode chronicling how the Penguins tanked the 1984 season so that they could draft a kid named Mario Lemieux.
32:46
SPEAKER_02: And and the details behind that story are nothing short of insane.
32:49
SPEAKER_02: I mean, go listen to that episode if you haven't already, because it's it's a whale of a story.
32:53
SPEAKER_02: But even with all the stuff the penguins did to try to lose, they still needed some outside help.
32:59
SPEAKER_02: And surprisingly, they got it courtesy of this feud between Gretzky and the Devils.
33:05
SPEAKER_02: Here's that story.
33:07
SPEAKER_02: The Devils were probably just a real bad team.
33:10
SPEAKER_02: I I don't think they were trying to lose, I think they were just bad.
33:13
SPEAKER_02: And there's even a website, we'll link it on our website called hockeygraphs.com, that did a bunch of statistical analysis showing how the Devils were really just a bad team all season, but how the Penguins were statistically more of a middle-of-the-pack team until that second half of the season, until that January uh back-to-back losses against the Devils and then the road trip to see Mario.
33:37
SPEAKER_02: After that point, they they kind of show how the Penguins really went into the tank statistically, whereas the Devils were kind of more consistently bad all season.
33:46
SPEAKER_02: So even though they had just a putrid team that year, there's really not a lot of evidence that New Jersey tried to lose on purpose.
33:54
SPEAKER_02: And one guy that you could potentially thank for that, ironically, is Wayne Gretzky.
33:59
SPEAKER_02: So before we get to that story, just a little history on the Devils franchise.
34:04
SPEAKER_02: They begin play in 1975 as an expansion team called the Kansas City Scouts.
34:09
SPEAKER_02: And they're not very good.
34:11
SPEAKER_02: No one in Kansas City's coming to the game.
34:13
SPEAKER_02: So they move to Denver and rename themselves as the Colorado Rockies.
34:18
SPEAKER_02: But things don't go a whole lot better in Denver either.
34:21
SPEAKER_02: Uh they move again.
34:23
SPEAKER_02: This time they move to East Rutherford, New Jersey, and they're renamed again as the Devils.
34:28
SPEAKER_02: And even that move is fraught with controversy because the other teams in that area, the Rangers, Islanders, and Flyers, don't want them there.
34:35
SPEAKER_02: And in fact, the Devils are forced to financially compensate those three other franchises for infringing on their territory.
34:41
SPEAKER_02: So in 1984, the the New Jersey Devils are a very more brown, more abound NHL franchise, right?
34:50
SPEAKER_02: Um, they they never really had a home, uh, and and they're and they're real bad.
34:55
SPEAKER_02: And there's a game way back at the very beginning of this season where the Devils are in Edmonton playing, as you as you mentioned, Steve, that that dynasty Oiler team.
35:06
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
35:06
SPEAKER_02: And and as expected, they're just getting destroyed, right?
35:10
SPEAKER_02: And the final score of that game is 13 to 4.
35:12
SPEAKER_02: The Gretzky and the Oilers just destroy them.
35:15
SPEAKER_02: And you'd think Gretzky would be happy about that.
35:18
SPEAKER_02: He has a hat trick in that game.
35:19
SPEAKER_02: He gets a pretty easy win.
35:21
SPEAKER_02: He can probably just kind of like relax the whole third period.
35:24
SPEAKER_02: But after the game, he's actually pretty pissed off because the New Jersey goaltender in that night is a guy named Ron Lowe, who is a friend of Gretzky's and a former teammate.
35:34
SPEAKER_02: And after the game, Gretzky talks about how he feels sorry for Lowe, and he says this quote, it got to the point where it wasn't even funny.
35:42
SPEAKER_02: It's about time they got their act together.
35:44
SPEAKER_02: They're ruining the whole league.
35:47
SPEAKER_02: They better stop running a Mickey Mouse organization and put somebody on the ice.
35:52
SPEAKER_02: End quote.
35:54
SPEAKER_03: Well, if anybody knows how to run a Mickey Mouse organization, it's Wayne Gretzky.
36:01
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I that's kind of ironic that he said that and then the way look at the way he's run, like, you know, the franchises, boy, karma.
36:12
SPEAKER_02: That's a good point.
36:13
SPEAKER_02: I didn't think about that.
36:15
SPEAKER_02: Uh but yeah, that was his comment after this blowout against the Devils that season.
36:21
SPEAKER_02: And that that sets off just a huge firestorm in New Jersey.
36:24
SPEAKER_02: The fans are irate.
36:26
SPEAKER_02: The Devils come out and demand an apology, which Gretzky actually does, in fact, issue an apology for that statement.
36:32
SPEAKER_02: And when the Oilers come to New Jersey a few months later, the game is actually a sellout.
36:37
SPEAKER_02: And the fans all show up wearing Mickey Mouse ears just so they can boo Gretzky.
36:42
SPEAKER_03: Are you really sure this isn't the slap shot movie?
36:46
SPEAKER_03: Did they all did they all just start fighting at the drop of the fuck?
36:51
SPEAKER_02: It's like, geez.
36:52
SPEAKER_02: Well, and and I just have to wonder, Steve, I mean, their pride took such a hit from that comment.
36:58
SPEAKER_02: You know, here you have the face of the league calling them a Mickey Mouse organization, and and they're pushing back so hard against that narrative to the point where they're demanding apologies and their fans are showing up uh for a sellout, which is probably rare for that for them that season.
37:15
SPEAKER_02: After all that, are they really going to tank the season?
37:19
SPEAKER_02: Right?
37:19
SPEAKER_02: And prove prove Wayne Gretzky right?
37:22
SPEAKER_02: Like you have to wonder if Gretzky hadn't made those comments, if they would have made the same decision midseason that the Penguins made.
37:29
SPEAKER_03: Um I yeah, you think it motivated them?
37:32
SPEAKER_03: Maybe I don't know.
37:35
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, or if they or if they tank, you know, if they start losing on purpose, then Wayne Gretzky was right all along, and they are a Mickey Mouse organization.
37:43
SPEAKER_02: Well.
37:44
SPEAKER_02: And then they came out and demanded he apologize, and he did.
37:47
SPEAKER_02: Like they they made a big stink about it.
37:49
SPEAKER_02: Like we are not a Mickey Mouse.
37:51
SPEAKER_02: We try every, you know, we're trying our best and everything.
37:54
SPEAKER_02: Like at that point.
37:56
SPEAKER_02: You know.
37:56
SPEAKER_03: I wonder why after the nine to like two win, he didn't call the penguins a Mickey Mouse organization.
38:02
SPEAKER_02: I I think because again, that's why I get kind of gave that history about Kansas City and Denver, because they just they their their whole history was just fraught with you know, being an organization that never really stayed in one place, never really put a good product on the ice.
38:19
SPEAKER_02: I think at least the penguins, like I said earlier, had some good teams before that.
38:23
SPEAKER_02: So maybe that's the context there for Gretzky saying all that.
38:27
SPEAKER_02: Also, that the Penguins didn't have his buddy playing goaltender, so that also didn't help.
38:32
SPEAKER_03: Maybe if they had Ron Lowe, I mean Yeah.
38:35
SPEAKER_02: But yeah, I I just think that's interesting.
38:37
SPEAKER_02: I I just do.
38:38
SPEAKER_02: I wonder if Wayne Gretzky is responsible for the Penguins getting Mario.
38:41
SPEAKER_02: Lemieux.
38:42
SPEAKER_02: It's an interesting thing to ponder.
38:47
SPEAKER_03: Can you imagine playing Lemieux playing in New Jersey?
38:50
SPEAKER_03: That would have been interesting.
38:51
SPEAKER_02: Thank God.
38:53
SPEAKER_02: He would have scored a lot of goals against the you know Miami Penguins or wherever we would have moved to.
39:00
SPEAKER_03: Miami Penguins win the Stanley Cup against Chicago.
39:07
SPEAKER_02: Wish I could go back to the beginning of the season, put some money on the penguins.
39:11
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
39:12
SPEAKER_02: Uh recently we did an episode about the 1990 Steelers and how they were brilliantly constructed by a guy named Tom Donohoe and then ultimately dismantled by a guy named Tom Donohoe.
39:23
SPEAKER_03: I like the synergy there.
39:25
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, thank you.
39:26
SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
39:27
SPEAKER_02: Uh he had an ongoing and very well publicized feud with Bill Cower.
39:33
SPEAKER_02: And one of the questions we asked in that episode is where did this feud really originate?
39:40
SPEAKER_02: Also at this time, there's a rift starting to develop between Donahoe and Cower.
39:45
SPEAKER_02: And no one really knows when it starts.
39:48
SPEAKER_02: Like those two guys haven't written tell all books or anything like that.
39:51
SPEAKER_02: Uh Ed Bouchette, who covered the Steel Wars for decades and probably has the most inside Steel War information of any uh Steel War media person.
40:01
SPEAKER_02: He says that the he says things were good for about two years, but then started like very slowly deteriorating.
40:08
SPEAKER_02: Uh the Steelers win the division in 1996, uh, even though they had lost a bunch of players, and that was Yeah, we did a whole episode on that season as well.
40:16
SPEAKER_02: Uh and they kind of unfortunately limp into the postseason and they lose in the Fog Bowl game in the playoffs in Foxborough to the aforementioned new English with Patriots.
40:27
SPEAKER_02: And the day after the game, two reporters approached Tom Donahoe asking about the game, and he makes this quote.
40:33
SPEAKER_02: He says, It was a very disappointing game, obviously.
40:36
SPEAKER_02: It's probably not reflective of the team we have.
40:39
SPEAKER_02: For whatever reasons, we didn't play very well, we were flat.
40:43
SPEAKER_02: End quote.
40:44
SPEAKER_02: And that causes a big stir.
40:47
SPEAKER_02: When Cower hears about that, he's furious.
40:49
SPEAKER_02: The next day at a news conference, someone asks Cower about it, and he very tersely says something to the effect of, I don't know, ask Tom.
40:57
SPEAKER_03: Tears?
40:58
SPEAKER_03: Or is he tears?
41:01
SPEAKER_03: Cower used to say tears.
41:03
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, right.
41:05
SPEAKER_02: So that that kind of seems to be the first public display of there being a rift.
41:10
SPEAKER_02: Uh you know, and and again, nobody really knows how bad this rift is at the time, but you can tell that Cower's angry and the Donnaho said they were fly, because they got blown out in that fobble game.
41:21
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it wasn't even a game.
41:22
SPEAKER_03: Like the second play of the game, Curtis Martin goes for like 60 yards or something.
41:26
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it was it was bad.
41:30
SPEAKER_02: We did an episode on Pittsburgh Sports conspiracy theories, and one of the theories we delved into in that episode was did Joe Paterno kill the Pitts Penn State rivalry because of a feud he had with Pitt.
41:44
SPEAKER_02: Because that's that's what a lot of people think happened.
41:48
SPEAKER_03: Yes.
41:49
SPEAKER_03: That's what happened.
41:51
SPEAKER_03: Truth.
41:52
SPEAKER_02: And and so we and spoilers, uh, we dive, we we dived into that here.
42:00
SPEAKER_03: Um here's a good one.
42:01
SPEAKER_03: Uh Penn State and Joe Paterno wouldn't play Pitt because of revenge for not joining conference, a conference with them.
42:10
SPEAKER_03: So I actually was able to find a UPI article from 1981.
42:15
SPEAKER_03: Hey, look at me, Tim.
42:16
SPEAKER_03: I put on my little like, you know, reporter's hat and was like, hey, Sonny, give me the article from 1981.
42:23
SPEAKER_03: Um so it was uh Pitt and Penn State are in talks to make an all-Eastern concert conference.
42:30
SPEAKER_03: Pitt has been very active in making things happen.
42:33
SPEAKER_03: Paterno told a group of reporters last month at a state college hotel they are excited about the possibility of an Eastern conference.
42:41
SPEAKER_03: Pitt attended every meeting, said Casal, the athletic director at Temple.
42:46
SPEAKER_03: We thought they were gung-ho for a full conference concept.
42:50
SPEAKER_03: But all the time and planning went out the window Wednesday when the Pitt administration in all their wisdom, and I added that, announced the university would join the Big East for the three years, beginning with the 1982, 83.
43:03
SPEAKER_03: And that killed the Eastern League before it could get off the ground.
43:06
SPEAKER_03: The defection of Pitt, which is nationally known football ground, this is 1981, Tim.
43:12
SPEAKER_03: So we were nationally known back then, and big city exposure would have put a viability of all a new all sports conference on the critical list.
43:21
SPEAKER_03: So they were under uh when we knew the big east was courting them, uh this guy said, but we under the impression that Pitt had turned them down.
43:29
SPEAKER_03: Um also Dave Wandstead had said he had talked to uh Joe Paterno.
43:34
SPEAKER_03: Peterno had no interest in reviving the Pit Penn State rivalry, even though Wandstead telephoned them about it when both were still coaching.
43:41
SPEAKER_03: He said, Dave, tell Jeff Long, I have no problem with Jeff, but here's the deal.
43:46
SPEAKER_03: As long as I'm here, it's just not going to work out.
43:49
SPEAKER_03: Wandstead said, recalling his conversation with Paterno.
43:52
SPEAKER_03: Why and how, I really don't know.
43:54
SPEAKER_03: Once that said, and didn't ask and didn't really didn't care.
44:00
SPEAKER_03: Gotta love Dave.
44:01
SPEAKER_03: Um I gave this a tin foil hat rating of two.
44:04
SPEAKER_03: It's probably I I think it's true more than false.
44:09
SPEAKER_03: I didn't give it a full one because it's still kind of murky out there, who did what and to whom.
44:15
SPEAKER_03: Probably probably is a revenge move by Paterno for not going along with him in the conference in the early 1980s.
44:22
SPEAKER_03: And it maybe was best for Pitt considering all the baggage Penn State has now.
44:26
SPEAKER_03: And once again, we're just talking about how like they were um splitting, splitting the market.
44:33
SPEAKER_03: If Pitt and Penn State would have tried to, you know, join like the Big Ten eventually, let's say all those, you know, eventually they would have had to try to join the Big Ten or something, right?
44:43
SPEAKER_03: If you look in your crystal ball.
44:45
SPEAKER_03: Talk about a what if episode, huh?
44:47
SPEAKER_03: You know, they they would have they would have had trouble.
44:49
SPEAKER_03: I think that's one of the reasons Pitt has never been invited to the Big Ten, is because they once again the Yukon thing, like why does Penn State want to split its territory with Pitt?
45:00
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and it was interesting that it was Pitt that blew up that Eastern Conference.
45:04
SPEAKER_02: I I think that there's a lot of truth to that.
45:06
SPEAKER_02: Peterno, Penn State's always been uh arrogant and petty.
45:11
SPEAKER_02: That's two things you can always say about the about the Penn State football program.
45:16
SPEAKER_02: And uh That fits both of those categories.
45:19
SPEAKER_02: It does.
45:20
SPEAKER_02: And and you know, when they killed the ri when the rivalry was killed, it at one point Paterno said, I I remember correctly, he would only do it if Pitt played there every two out of every three years.
45:31
SPEAKER_03: Something like that.
45:32
SPEAKER_03: It was like a two to one or three to one or something stupid.
45:35
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and not just reeks of um, I'm still mad at you for something happened in 1981.
45:40
SPEAKER_03: He made a bad that's called a bad faith offer.
45:43
SPEAKER_03: You you make an offer that you know not the other party won't ever accept.
45:46
SPEAKER_02: Right.
45:47
SPEAKER_02: But but the way that they all the way Penn State always talked about it for years was just, you know, oh, you know, we we just we have we play who we play, and and you know, uh i they just pretended like there was no history, there was no desire for it, it was just another school.
46:04
SPEAKER_02: Right.
46:04
SPEAKER_02: And it was just super arrogant.
46:06
SPEAKER_02: I always hated that mentality.
46:08
SPEAKER_02: Tim Curley, who was their athletic director, who ended up going to prison because of said arrogance, uh, you know, he he used to do that all the time.
46:15
SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah, but Pittsburgh, sure, whatever.
46:18
SPEAKER_02: I don't really what's where's that at again?
46:20
SPEAKER_02: I mean, that was their attitude.
46:22
SPEAKER_02: And and I think I think it it probably was.
46:24
SPEAKER_02: I if I think Peterno was offended, and and maybe Pitt made the wrong call there, I don't know, but I think that that was all based in arrogance and petty.
46:34
SPEAKER_03: I think Pitt made the short-sighted call.
46:36
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
46:37
SPEAKER_03: Like they saw money on the table, and like, well, this gets our basketball team into a conference and our football team will be just fine.
46:44
SPEAKER_03: And and and again, and they did not see they did not see like Paterno correctly assessed that everything was going to go to major conferences for the next 20 to 30 years.
46:53
SPEAKER_03: Right.
46:55
SPEAKER_03: Pitt was just like, hey, look at us, we got a winning football team for the first time in 40 years.
46:59
SPEAKER_03: Yay!
47:00
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, Pitt was such a big draw at the time, they never could have foreseen.
47:03
SPEAKER_02: So you you yeah, if if I guess um I guess it's a fair point.
47:07
SPEAKER_02: If Paterno was upset about it, he probably had a right to be upset about it.
47:11
SPEAKER_02: Right?
47:12
SPEAKER_02: So I'll give him that.
47:13
SPEAKER_02: I think you know that that that part makes sense.
47:15
SPEAKER_02: But to to kill a rivalry that so many people in this area grew up on and loved because you're you're bitter about something, that's just you know, anyway.
47:25
SPEAKER_02: I I have a lot of negative things to say about Penn State football, so I'm just gonna stop.
47:32
SPEAKER_02: All right, our last feud can be titled Myron Cope versus the people of San Francisco.
47:38
SPEAKER_03: The whole town, huh?
47:39
SPEAKER_02: The whole town.
47:40
SPEAKER_02: Myron Myron He didn't like cable cars, Rice Aroni, or yeah, my Myron wasn't just gonna get into a feud with one person.
47:48
SPEAKER_02: He he he was he was too big of a personality for that.
47:51
SPEAKER_03: That bank and go suck it, the Golden Gate Bridge, Fort Pitt Bridge is better than the Golden Gate Bridge.
47:58
SPEAKER_02: Uh this this came from an episode we did called The Surprising History of Steelers vs.
48:03
SPEAKER_02: 49ers.
48:04
SPEAKER_02: And we went into some really interesting history between these two kind of like flagship NFL franchises, the Steelers and the Niners.
48:12
SPEAKER_02: Two two franchises that obviously have had a ton of success over the years, but who traditionally don't play each other very often.
48:19
SPEAKER_02: So you wouldn't think there's a lot of history, but there actually actually is.
48:22
SPEAKER_02: And one of the things we talked about was this incident in which Steelers broadcaster Myron Cope took some shots at the citizens of San Francisco.
48:33
SPEAKER_02: So let's let's fast forward to November 27th, 1978.
48:38
SPEAKER_02: The Steelers are in San Francisco to play the 49ers on Monday night football, which it at that time was a big deal, right?
48:45
SPEAKER_02: Monday night football was the game of the week.
48:50
SPEAKER_02: Uh but unfortunately, some very tragic events unfold in San Francisco earlier that afternoon.
48:56
SPEAKER_02: Uh one person, Steve, I know for sure we have not talked about on this podcast, is a woman named Diane Feinstein.
49:02
SPEAKER_02: Do you know who Diane Feinstein is?
49:04
SPEAKER_03: Dify, uh still serving member of Congress, I do believe.
49:08
SPEAKER_02: Yes, at age 146.
49:10
SPEAKER_02: Very impressive.
49:13
SPEAKER_03: She voted for a Lincoln.
49:17
SPEAKER_02: Well, back in 1978, he is the president of the San Francisco Board of Supervisors, and he's tasked with having to make this very unfortunate announcement to the press.
49:55
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, well, I mean, it was pretty shocking.
49:57
SPEAKER_02: And the mayor of San Francisco, George Moscone, and City Supervisor Harvey Milk, both assassinated by their coworker, City Supervisor Dan Brown.
50:06
SPEAKER_02: There's a whole it leads to the Twinkie defense.
50:09
SPEAKER_02: The Twinkie defense, absolutely, yes.
50:11
SPEAKER_03: It's on it's like the Chewbacca defense.
50:13
SPEAKER_03: It's undefensible.
50:14
SPEAKER_03: You can't you can't.
50:15
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I I knew I knew you would know that story, Steve, because you're the history buff.
50:20
SPEAKER_02: Um I think they made a movie about that with I want to say Sean Penn.
50:24
SPEAKER_03: That was about Harvey Milk.
50:26
SPEAKER_02: Oh, that wasn't about the assassination.
50:28
SPEAKER_03: It was Yeah, it was about and he was not killed because of any sexual preference he had.
50:33
SPEAKER_03: He was killed because the guy was ticked off that he lost his job.
50:37
SPEAKER_03: Right.
50:37
SPEAKER_03: Now maybe it played a factor in it, I don't know, but I I always thought it was more just workplace violence.
50:45
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
50:46
SPEAKER_02: Whole whole interesting story behind that, and and and then the subsequent trial and and conviction that a lot of people thought was way too soft because of the the Twinkies.
50:55
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's like, oh, he ate he said he ate too many Twinkies.
50:58
SPEAKER_02: And he and he was like insane because of it.
51:02
SPEAKER_02: So obviously the murder of two city officials is a pretty dark, you know, pretty dark day for the city of San Francisco.
51:11
SPEAKER_02: And and the question arises, hey, should we really be playing this game at Candlestick Park tonight?
51:17
SPEAKER_02: Uh Candlestick was publicly owned and operated by the city, specifically by the San Francisco Parks and Recreation Commission.
51:25
SPEAKER_02: And they send a telegram to the NFL and to Art Rooney and to Niner's owner Eddie DeBartley Jr.
51:32
SPEAKER_02: I did not know people still sent telegrams in 1978, but apparently they did.
51:38
SPEAKER_03: Just coming over the line, Mr.
51:40
SPEAKER_03: Rooney.
51:42
SPEAKER_02: And and what the uh Parks and Rec said commission said is it it is our strong belief that the use of a city-owned facility this evening for a sporting event is inappropriate, would be in poor taste.
51:54
SPEAKER_02: So they're asking the league to cancel the game.
51:56
SPEAKER_02: There's also concern that, you know, because this was a politically charged kind of assassination, that there could be protests or riots, and would it really be a good idea to divert a bunch of city resources to a football game?
52:11
SPEAKER_02: Uh, but the NFL says, you know what?
52:14
SPEAKER_02: We played when Kennedy was shot.
52:16
SPEAKER_02: We're not going to cancel for your mayor.
52:18
SPEAKER_03: So NFL's a bunch of jerks, you know.
52:24
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
52:24
SPEAKER_02: We're playing the game, stop.
52:26
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
52:27
SPEAKER_02: Too bad.
52:28
SPEAKER_02: Stop.
52:28
SPEAKER_02: May he rest in peace.
52:30
SPEAKER_02: Stop.
52:31
SPEAKER_02: So uh so yeah.
52:33
SPEAKER_03: We have a moment of silence before the game.
52:36
SPEAKER_02: Well, it's funny that you say that because before the game they actually do hold a moment of silence at Candlestick Park.
52:43
SPEAKER_02: It's very awkward because it's like dead quiet in the stadium, but then there's like a handful of people just yelling out swear words and stuff during this moment of silence.
52:53
SPEAKER_02: And you can very audibly hear them during the broadcast.
52:56
SPEAKER_02: I can't play it because we're a we're a PG podcast and there's a lot of non-PG words that people are screaming out.
53:03
SPEAKER_02: So I can't play that, but what I can play for you is the reaction of Stewards broadcasters Myron Cope and Jack Fleming to that.
53:11
SPEAKER_02: Take a listen.
53:14
SPEAKER_01: Moment of silence observed in memory of the late mayor of San Francisco, George Boscone, and the city supervisor Harvey Milk.
53:22
SPEAKER_05: How do you like the cuckoos in the crowd?
53:24
SPEAKER_05: They're observing a moment of silence, and they're, I don't know, a handful of voices out there at the top of their lungs shouting obscenities and whatnot during the moment of silence.
53:35
SPEAKER_05: But I guess there are uh proportionately more cuckoos in this kind than elsewhere.
53:40
SPEAKER_05: Is that fair to say?
53:42
SPEAKER_01: I wouldn't want to say that, but Marian, if you uh if you didn't have him, you'd think the human race was uh suddenly becoming just too perfect.
53:49
SPEAKER_01: Well, you're just unbelievable.
53:52
SPEAKER_01: It's absolutely unbelievable, but uh here it is, particularly in San Francisco, you get that kind of reaction.
53:58
SPEAKER_01: Paul Hopper is going deep for the forty niners.
54:02
SPEAKER_03: Well, end of the game.
54:05
SPEAKER_03: Wow.
54:06
SPEAKER_03: I mean, gotta love Myron calling it how it is.
54:08
SPEAKER_03: I mean, that's ridiculous.
54:10
SPEAKER_03: Like I don't even understand.
54:12
SPEAKER_03: Wasn't weren't both those guys popular?
54:14
SPEAKER_03: They were popularly elected.
54:16
SPEAKER_03: I mean, I don't know.
54:17
SPEAKER_03: Maybe they weren't popular back in the 70s.
54:19
SPEAKER_03: I I don't know.
54:21
SPEAKER_03: It's just odd that why would you do that?
54:23
SPEAKER_02: That's I I don't even know that it was like people were were uh upset because of the moment of silence was for those two guys, or it was just it's quiet, and so if I yell out something, then then everybody will hear it, right?
54:38
SPEAKER_02: Just somebody being a jerk.
54:41
SPEAKER_02: I I I feel like that rant from Myron Cope would cause more controversy today with him.
54:46
SPEAKER_02: They deserved it.
54:47
SPEAKER_03: I'm sorry, they deserved it.
54:48
SPEAKER_03: What you're gonna defend people yelling during a moment of silence?
54:51
SPEAKER_02: No, but then he kind of he kind of like labels the whole entire city of San Francisco as disrespectful nut jobs.
54:57
SPEAKER_02: I feel like that part would have gotten garnered a little bit of controversy.
55:00
SPEAKER_03: But again, stop yelling during the moment of silence, just hey, you know, perfectly within your control.
55:08
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
55:09
SPEAKER_02: Right.
55:09
SPEAKER_02: No, I mean for for sure criticized that, but then the kind of him and Fleming insinuating that you know that's what you get in a place like San Francisco.
55:17
SPEAKER_02: Uh I think that part would have rankled a few feathers.
55:23
SPEAKER_02: All right, everybody, that's our episode on feuds.
55:26
SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much for listening.
55:28
SPEAKER_02: Uh please check us out on Facebook or on Twitter or on our website.
55:33
SPEAKER_02: You can also email the show, you can text the show from the link in the show notes.
55:38
SPEAKER_02: Uh thank you once again, everybody.
55:40
SPEAKER_02: Really appreciate uh you listening.
55:42
SPEAKER_02: We really appreciate you spreading the word about our little show here, and we'll catch you next time.