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S2 Ep 4: This Is What Our Hearts Are For · Attachment Matters Podcast

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_03: Welcome to Attachment Matters.
• 0:03
  This podcast is a conversation between two mothers who are
• 0:07
  passionate about the
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_03: subject of attachment.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_03: This is Rose.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm Stoic Mom.
• 0:13
  Both of our families ended up entangled in the confusing world
• 0:17
  of gender and identity,
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_00: following very different routes to get here.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_00: Through this experience,
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_00: we each discovered how in parenting our children,
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_00: we are offered the opportunity to grow ourselves up.
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  Our hope is to offer greater insight into how to strengthen the
• 0:32
  relationship
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_03: between parents and their children,
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_03: despite all odds.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_00: In this episode,
• 0:39
  Rose and I dive deep into the emotional and physiological
• 0:42
  experience of the
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  SPEAKER_00: adaptive process.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_00: We name and describe the many feelings that will play their role,
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  SPEAKER_00: including frustration,
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  SPEAKER_00: alarm,
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  SPEAKER_00: futility,
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  SPEAKER_00: disappointment,
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  SPEAKER_00: and sadness,
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  SPEAKER_00: followed by release,
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  SPEAKER_00: rest,
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  SPEAKER_00: and renewed relationship.
• 0:58
  We emphasize the importance of being big enough to act as both
• 1:00
  the agents of
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  SPEAKER_00: futility and the agents of comfort for our children,
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  and also how to come alongside ourselves with tenderness so we
• 1:08
  can keep our own
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  SPEAKER_00: heart soft.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_00: Good morning.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_00: How are you?
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: I'm doing all right.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: Excellent.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: Mother's Day is coming right up.
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  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yes.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: A complicated time for many of our listeners.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, thanks for mentioning that.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that's a good place to start.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_00: Though this will be publishing on the other side of Mother's Day.
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  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_03: So a belated Mother's Day.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_03: Happy Mother's Day to all the moms.
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  SPEAKER_00: We see you.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_00: We appreciate you.
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  SPEAKER_00: We know how hard this all is.
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  And our hearts are broken open and also just full of love and
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  care and compassion
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  SPEAKER_03: for all that you're going through.
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  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_03: So welcome listeners.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_03: This is episode four of season two of Attachment Matters.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_03: And yeah,
• 2:25
  I've just got a big smile on my face because I just am
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  imagining our listeners and just,
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  SPEAKER_03: yeah,
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  SPEAKER_03: feeling that warmth and that gratitude for
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  for who you are and that you're showing up and accepting our
• 2:43
  invitation and giving
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_03: us the invitation to share our thoughts and reflections with you.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_00: And you had mentioned it might be a good idea for us to orient.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_00: It's helpful to do that regularly, to remind us, you know, of...
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  SPEAKER_00: of where we are, where we hope to be headed.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_03: Yeah,
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  SPEAKER_03: so for longtime listeners,
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  SPEAKER_03: this might serve as just,
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_03: again,
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_03: exactly like you said,
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  SPEAKER_03: sort of a reorientation to the podcast and what we've covered,
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  SPEAKER_03: where we've been,
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  SPEAKER_03: where we are now with our topic today,
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  SPEAKER_03: which is the adaptive process and adaptation.
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  SPEAKER_03: And we,
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_03: just to say this right away,
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  we're going to kind of feel out how many episodes we're going
• 3:37
  to stick with this
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  SPEAKER_03: topic for.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
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  Because it's a big one with profound implications for humanity
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  as a whole and very
• 3:49
  specifically for parents who are experiencing and walking
• 3:54
  alongside a child who's
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  SPEAKER_03: trans-identified at whatever age,
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  SPEAKER_03: whatever age,
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  SPEAKER_03: as well as for those who are trans-identified themselves.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
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  SPEAKER_03: So we want to give it time and we want to give it our hearts,
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  SPEAKER_03: truly,
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  SPEAKER_03: to speak to these layers of how it can apply to this specific situation.
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  SPEAKER_03: So before we dive into our topic today,
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_03: the adaptive process,
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  SPEAKER_03: you know,
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  SPEAKER_03: just a reminder,
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  SPEAKER_03: and also knowing we may have some new listeners,
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  SPEAKER_03: you know,
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  SPEAKER_03: this is the Attachment Matters podcast today.
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  Stoic mom and I connected a couple years back and came together
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  to really start
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  SPEAKER_03: sharing and reflecting,
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  SPEAKER_03: making connections with attachment and specifically Dr.
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  SPEAKER_03: Gordon Neufeld's attachment-based developmental model and approach.
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  SPEAKER_03: And we spent our first season diving into his
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  SPEAKER_03: his construct of attachment and really fleshing that out,
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  the idea of the six stages of attachment as roots underneath
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  the soil that really
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  SPEAKER_03: give security and intimacy,
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  SPEAKER_03: connection for that plant to be able to grow.
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  We talked about attachment as being hierarchical last season
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  and really pulled in
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  SPEAKER_03: this concept of alpha,
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  SPEAKER_03: And that role of provider,
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  SPEAKER_03: of guide,
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  of providing a compass point for children or those who are
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  under our care.
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  SPEAKER_03: It could be an elderly parent who we have to provide for later in life.
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  SPEAKER_03: It could be students in a classroom.
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  SPEAKER_03: If we're therapists, maybe it's our clients who we're providing that.
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  SPEAKER_03: that alpha presence for,
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  SPEAKER_03: to,
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  to those who are depending on us or seeking to get those
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  attachment needs filled by us.
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  SPEAKER_03: And I want to just do a meta moment here where I'm like,
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  SPEAKER_03: by orienting you all as listeners to the big,
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  SPEAKER_03: to where we are in our conversation,
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  SPEAKER_03: I'm taking on that alpha role.
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  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
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  SPEAKER_03: I just, you know, to have that kind of 3d view of, of right now,
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  SPEAKER_03: That is, you know, serving as that guide, giving that orientation.
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  SPEAKER_03: So just to kind of have that perspective as I'm talking right now.
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  SPEAKER_03: We also spoke a little bit to what we call the,
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  SPEAKER_03: what Neufeld's construct of the frustration traffic circle.
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  And I just want to bookmark that because that is directly tied
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  to our topic today
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  SPEAKER_03: of adaptation and futility.
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  SPEAKER_03: But we're not going to necessarily focus on that today.
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  It might be a part of this series of conversations around the
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  adaptive process.
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  And then just another thing that we set out from the very
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  beginning of season one
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  was the Neufeld's construct of these primary separation or
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  primal separation emotions.
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  SPEAKER_03: And we did that from the beginning just because as parents...
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  SPEAKER_03: Anytime we're hearing content or reflecting on our children,
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  especially if they are troubled or struggling or we're having
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  conflict in the relationship,
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  SPEAKER_03: these primal emotions are going to be triggered.
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  Because essentially we're facing a level of separation in that relationship.
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  SPEAKER_03: And when we face separation,
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  SPEAKER_03: we are moved by either frustration,
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  SPEAKER_03: something that's not working for us that we care about deeply.
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  SPEAKER_03: Alarm.
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  SPEAKER_03: which is, you know, we're not safe, that's not secure.
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  SPEAKER_03: And so,
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  SPEAKER_03: you know,
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  SPEAKER_03: often this is labeled in our modern world as anxiety,
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  but underneath whatever thought process we're having that we're
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  rationalizing our
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  SPEAKER_03: alarm through,
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  SPEAKER_03: explaining our alarm through,
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  SPEAKER_03: is this primal emotion of feeling unsafe.
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  SPEAKER_03: And then the last one being pursuit.
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  SPEAKER_03: So there's a gap.
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  SPEAKER_03: When we face that separation,
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  SPEAKER_03: there's this gap and we want to seek or pursue a way to close the gap.
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  SPEAKER_03: So that is that emotion that moves us.
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  And we kind of laid those out because they are always going to
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  be at play in the
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  SPEAKER_03: experience of a parent of a trans-identified child,
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  SPEAKER_03: adolescent,
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  SPEAKER_03: adult,
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  SPEAKER_03: because that is an experience of facing separation.
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  SPEAKER_03: all these emotions are going to be triggered.
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  SPEAKER_03: There may be one that's more predominant than the others,
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  SPEAKER_03: but they're all going to be in the water we are,
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  SPEAKER_03: in the river that is flowing within us,
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  SPEAKER_03: right?
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  SPEAKER_03: As we're moved by this experience of separation.
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  What occurred to me as you were describing that is it is
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  probably those emotions
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  SPEAKER_00: that have brought so many listeners here.
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  SPEAKER_00: That's how they find themselves here is in pursuit of that,
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  SPEAKER_00: of the information that will help them close the gap.
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  SPEAKER_00: Right.
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  SPEAKER_00: That is creating the alarm and frustration.
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  SPEAKER_03: Yep.
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  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
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  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
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  SPEAKER_03: Yep.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
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  SPEAKER_00: So they serve a purpose, right?
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  SPEAKER_00: They're productive emotions.
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  SPEAKER_00: They're important to the human experience.
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  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
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  And the goal is as we learn about them and integrate this information,
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  we have a name for them.
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  We learn this name,
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  how we can name them,
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  which is part of developing this relationship to them.
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  SPEAKER_03: So it's not about counteracting them or trying to make them go away.
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  stuffing them down,
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  it's really like,
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  oh,
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  I'm really frustrated right now.
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  SPEAKER_03: That must mean something's not working for me.
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  SPEAKER_00: Like all emotions, yes.
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  SPEAKER_00: They serve a purpose.
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  And if we can have the relationship with them and know that
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  they're information,
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  SPEAKER_00: we can engage with them productively.
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  SPEAKER_03: Yep.
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  SPEAKER_03: Yep.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
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  It's like coming alongside ourselves,
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  coming alongside the emotions,
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  you know.
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  They're not our enemy,
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  but we don't want them necessarily in that steering wheel,
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  right?
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  SPEAKER_03: Maybe in the passenger seat.
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  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
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  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_00: Well said.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: Often we're hijacked by them, especially alarm.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm sure we'll talk a little bit more about that.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_00: And this conversation, I imagine.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_03: Yep.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_03: We'll see where we end up.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_03: So in season two, oh, and I just want to mention this for new listeners.
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  Every few episodes we do try to do or every kind of we're
• 11:16
  coming to close on a specific topic.
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  SPEAKER_03: In season one,
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_03: we offered the opportunity for the Stoic Moms community to submit Q&A,
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  SPEAKER_03: questions for our Q&A episodes.
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  SPEAKER_03: And we're going to be doing that as well in season two.
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  SPEAKER_03: And once we get to that point,
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_03: which will not be too long out now,
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_03: we will be inviting our paid subscribers to submit questions.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_03: So that's kind of a perk of valuing this work and supporting it,
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_03: that that's going to be a perk of a paid subscription.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_03: So season two,
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_03: we're really embarking on even a bigger step back,
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  SPEAKER_03: looking at sort of this Neufeld developmental model as a whole.
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  SPEAKER_03: One of the three keys to that model is attachment.
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  SPEAKER_03: So for those who are new listeners,
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_03: you could go back and listen to some of those episodes in season one.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_03: The other two keys are maturation and vulnerability.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_03: And we've embarked first on maturation.
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  SPEAKER_03: And our first focused episode,
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  SPEAKER_03: one of the three sides,
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  SPEAKER_03: what I called in a written post recently,
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_03: the three sides to the story of maturation,
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  is emergence becoming a separate being we talked about that in
• 12:38
  episode three and
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  today we're going to start to talk about the second side to
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  maturation which is the
• 12:46
  adaptation and the adaptive process yeah and i just i think
• 12:53
  want to lift up that
• 12:54
  these aren't sequential right they're all equal sides to a
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  triangle and so
• 13:01
  I imagine they're all working together or,
• 13:04
  right,
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  there's some interplay.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_00: And we just chose where to dive in.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_00: But there's no specific sequence to these three things.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_03: Yep.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_03: Yep.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_03: You can see him almost like, I appreciate that.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_03: And almost like if we're, what he talks about is laying out maps.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_03: And it's kind of like you look at the one dimension as a map.
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  SPEAKER_03: And then you can look at another dimension as a map.
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  SPEAKER_03: and then the third dimension is a map,
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  SPEAKER_03: and then you have,
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_03: you put them together,
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  SPEAKER_03: you have that more three-dimensional view.
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  SPEAKER_03: And I think with adaptation,
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  SPEAKER_03: the role of vulnerability,
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  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_03: becomes so clear to be able to have that soft heart to find our tears.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's not something that we have
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  learned you know in fact it seems something that has been
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  pushed away yeah in our
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  culture tears of sadness are not things we typically embrace or
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  think are healthy
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  for us we're quite threatened by sadness and think that it
• 14:19
  means something's wrong
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_03: yeah yep yeah absolutely absolutely
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  SPEAKER_00: And as a result, I think hearts are no longer soft.
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  SPEAKER_00: Right.
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  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_03: And it impacts us and our children.
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  SPEAKER_03: And so as we go through here, I want you thinking about both.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_03: You know,
• 14:44
  there's just going to be so many insights to be gained about me
• 14:50
  as a mother,
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_03: as a parent,
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_03: Also as a daughter to my parents.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_03: You know,
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_03: I feel like that story,
• 14:58
  my own journey with my parents was a huge theme of our first
• 15:01
  season as well.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_03: But also the role of the soft heart and these tears for our children.
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  SPEAKER_03: And again,
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_03: whether they're,
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  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_03: pre-adolescent,
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_03: adolescent,
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_03: teenagers,
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_03: young adults in their 30s,
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  SPEAKER_03: it all unfolds.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_03: it applies to every stage.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_03: And it's never too late.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_03: Always.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_03: Yep.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_03: Yep.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_03: Yep.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_03: So let's just start with kind of this essence of when Dr.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_03: Gordon Neufeld talks about the word adaptation and the adaptive process.
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  SPEAKER_03: Sometimes we hear these words and we come with,
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_03: let's say,
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_03: evolutionary theory and things that,
• 15:53
  this is a common word in our culture and it can have a lot of
• 15:56
  different definitions.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_03: So I want to define it within the construct that Dr. Neufeld has.
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  SPEAKER_03: And at its essence,
• 16:07
  the adaptive process is the process of coming up against
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  something that we cannot
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_03: change and being changed by it.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_03: So it's not about finding a way to make that thing change.
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  SPEAKER_03: It's about when we hit that wall,
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_03: come up against that,
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_03: impotence,
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_03: in a sense,
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_03: that futility can sink in as an emotion.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_03: And allow us, through our tears, to become transformed.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_00: And it brings immediately to mind for me the Viktor Frankl quote,
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_00: the author of Man's Search for Meaning,
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_00: where he says,
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_00: when you can't change the external circumstance,
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_00: you're challenged to change yourself.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_00: It's that simple.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, the idea is that simple.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that's a beautiful quote.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I feel like once you see this, it is everywhere.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_03: It is everywhere.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_03: You can't watch a movie the same way.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_03: You know,
• 17:39
  when the plot is building and that character is resisting and
• 17:44
  running and fighting,
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_03: and then all of a sudden...
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_03: They hit that wall.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_03: And what Neufeld says is this is the amygdala.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_03: We'll get neuroscience-y a little bit here,
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_03: but it is the amygdala,
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_03: the center of what he calls the limbic system or the emotional brain,
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_03: this primal emotional brain.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_03: that has a body language.
• 18:11
  There's often a body language associated with these primal
• 18:14
  emotions and it sends a sign,
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_03: a signal to the lacrimal glands and our eyes water.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_03: So that is when that futility sets in.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_03: So again,
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_03: in these movies,
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_03: there's the plot building,
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_03: the tension,
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_03: the fighting,
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_03: the resisting,
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_03: and then the person cries.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_03: And they are transformed.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_00: Are we going to dive into futility as an emotion?
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_00: Did you want to say something about it?
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_00: I saw you.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_00: Bring it on.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I just am thinking of that experience.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_00: That experience of futility.
• 18:58
  And what seems so clear to me is that we experience less of it
• 19:08
  than we used to.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_00: Progress has brought us to a place where we're not very used to futility.
• 19:18
  We have more capacity to change external circumstances,
• 19:21
  I think,
• 19:22
  than we've ever had before.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_00: And so futility can seem a very foreign experience.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 19:31
  And boy,
• 19:32
  can I put myself back in that place with the futility of this circumstance.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, exactly.
• 19:39
  And I will say,
• 19:41
  I'm grateful that I could see it,
• 19:45
  that I recognized it as impotence.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_00: That was my word for it.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_00: I am impotent in this.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_00: It's bigger than me.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_00: I can attempt to change external circumstances,
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_00: but they're not going to change in time for my family.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and it really did.
• 20:05
  Oh,
• 20:09
  just the writhing,
• 20:11
  the physiology of it,
• 20:13
  the way that it just overtook my body.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: And my...
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_00: desire to like gain from it.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it is an intense experience.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_00: And it's,
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_00: and at some point,
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_00: I think a lot of people get rather trapped in that.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_00: But it will force a surrender.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what I'm hearing is happening with the tears coming.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_00: It is that awareness that you have smacked into a wall.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_00: And it's not going to move.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's not going to move for you.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_00: And you have to let it go.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_03: Two things.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_03: This is an emotional experience.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_03: If you are thinking in your brain, there's nothing I can do about this.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_03: You know, that's good.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_03: It's, you know, that's like a level of acceptance, right?
• 21:17
  Like intellectually,
• 21:20
  but for that adaptation to happen,
• 21:26
  that like your eye,
• 21:28
  like the sadness is,
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_03: The disappointment has to register emotionally.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 21:42
  And now you can see why I said the connections to vulnerability
• 21:44
  are just so clear
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_03: because the two things required for a person to feel vulnerability,
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_03: feel it,
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_03: at the emotional level,
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_03: is a heart that's soft enough and a sufficient feeling of safety.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_03: to let those walls down.
• 22:10
  I think an awful lot about this,
• 22:12
  you know,
• 22:15
  and try to describe this experience.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_00: And it's challenging.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_00: Because especially, you know, when we're dealing with
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_00: the parent experience.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_00: through this attachment work,
• 22:29
  we understand that we are what provides the safety for a child
• 22:36
  to move through this
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_00: emotional experience.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_00: That's our role.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 22:42
  How do we,
• 22:43
  you know,
• 22:45
  find the conditions to facilitate that surrender for ourselves?
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 22:55
  Yeah,
• 22:55
  it's,
• 22:56
  I mean,
• 22:56
  you know,
• 23:00
  having a safe relationship with a spouse,
• 23:03
  huge.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_03: Having a connection to a personal God, huge.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_03: Finding ways that are indirect,
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_03: I need to,
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_03: I think I said this in season one a few times,
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_03: I need to listen to music.
• 23:23
  because I am very defended against my tears in general,
• 23:25
  because I'm a very sensitive person.
• 23:27
  It sounds paradoxical,
• 23:29
  but I'm so sensitive that I'm more defended against my emotion.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_03: I'm feeling my emotions.
• 23:36
  I'm moved by my emotions all the time,
• 23:39
  but actually feeling discomfort or feeling the sadness.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_03: I think I'm more adaptive now because of what I had to go through
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_03: You know, the past four years.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_03: So I think it comes easier to me than it has at other points in my life.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_03: But it hasn't always been easy.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_03: And so playing that sad music,
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_03: watching a sad show on TV,
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_03: the Neufeld people always say,
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_03: watch This Is Us.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_03: You cry at the end of every episode.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_03: I have never watched it.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_03: My spouse and I are like, we got to watch that together.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_03: We've been saying that for about 10 years.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_03: But, you know,
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_03: For me right now, going to church, every time I go to church, I cry.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_03: It's like amazing.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_03: I just weep.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_00: I'd love to,
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_00: yeah,
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_00: reinforce what you're saying,
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_00: that church provides that safety,
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_00: that idea of a personal God.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_00: And for me, I figured that out, you know.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_00: For me, the ability to let go was finding faith in something.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_00: I had to believe in something larger than myself.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_00: I had to give it up.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I hear people talk about giving it up to God.
• 25:04
  I wouldn't say that was what my experience was when I was going
• 25:08
  through this surrender.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I will say,
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_00: and I acknowledge this,
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_00: that I have this tendency,
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_00: I think,
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_00: for an intellectual bypass.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_00: Me too.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_00: It has to make sense to me.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I had to find what I could put my faith into.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_00: And at that point,
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_00: it really was about the intelligence of life or nature's design,
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_00: just the understanding that my child is human.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_00: And humans are adaptable and they mature.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 25:45
  And that was what allowed me to experience that surrender and
• 25:49
  stop feeling like I
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_00: needed to change her,
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_00: which is what we were saying,
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_00: I bumped into that futility so often that to be able to surrender, right?
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_00: Like my brain had to be able to go somewhere with this and find faith.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_00: And it was that faith that allowed me to surrender.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_00: That helped me feel safe enough.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_00: I think to surrender.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_03: Being held by something, being held by something bigger than yourself.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 26:21
  Which is what,
• 26:22
  which is what we,
• 26:24
  I mean,
• 26:24
  that's our role for a child is to be that bigger thing.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_00: That, that provides that safe place.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_00: That safe, that sense of being safe in the world, safe enough to,
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_00: To let go and surrender.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_00: And can I also,
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_00: sorry,
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_00: I just want to,
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_00: and maybe you were going to talk more about this,
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_00: but the importance before the sadness,
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_00: I think,
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_00: and I want to clarify this,
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_00: is that experience of disappointment.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_00: We do not like to be disappointed.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_00: And we have absolutely judged that experience as a no-no.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_03: Or disappointing others.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_00: We use that one, right?
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_00: We use that one to create shame.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, you're so right.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_00: Human experience.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_00: You're so right.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_00: We don't think, you know what I mean?
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_00: Like we have such an aversion to disappointment and yet it is integral.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_00: To the adaptation process.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_03: That's right.
• 27:32
  If you don't feel disappointment when something has not worked
• 27:39
  that you care about,
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_03: you're not actually adapting.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_03: It's not registering that this is sad.
• 27:53
  Yeah.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_00: And you know what?
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_00: I still catch myself all the time.
• 27:59
  like preparing myself for what might be a disappointing outcome
• 28:03
  to something.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_03: Of course.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_00: So that I don't have to experience the disappointment as much.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, exactly.
• 28:13
  I have to tell this little story,
• 28:15
  and then I want to come back to parents and children,
• 28:17
  okay?
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_03: Just this week, so my wife is a coach.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_03: Every sport my children play, she coaches.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_03: And she's phenomenal.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_03: She is a phenomenal coach.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_03: She is a kinesthetic person.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_03: She has the skills.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_03: She has the knowledge.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_03: She can look at a person, a child,
• 28:35
  swinging a baseball bat shooting a basketball and see the exact
• 28:40
  reason why they
• 28:41
  missed the ball or the form or you know i i do not have that
• 28:46
  skill like so i just
• 28:48
  admire it so much so this spring you know she's coaching
• 28:52
  baseball and for like nine
• 28:54
  nine-year-olds ten-year-olds and a new dad she's and and the
• 28:59
  context she's coaching
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_03: these are all co-ed teams okay and or boys because we have sons
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_03: So,
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_03: so she's always navigating being like a woman in this man's world,
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_03: so to speak,
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_03: and having authority.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_03: Hold, holding a space of authority.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_03: So this past week,
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_03: One of the new coaches was teaching.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_03: She realized after their first game,
• 29:26
  he had been coaching the pitchers and he was teaching them the
• 29:30
  wrong form.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_03: We had a super talented group of kids.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_03: We lost the game awfully because it was a developmental issue.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_03: She was like, kids can't think about two things at the same time.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_03: You just have to tell them one thing.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_03: So she took over coaching the pitchers.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_03: And did she get a barrage of text messages?
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_03: He was so disappointed, but he was not feeling his disappointment.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_03: OK, he was, you know, disrespected.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_03: He was talking about all the businesses he's been able to run.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_03: Like just he talked to every other coach behind her back.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_03: And I and she was like, I'm just going to let him coach the pitchers.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_03: And I said, no.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_03: So this goes back to emergence.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_03: Our last episode, I want to tie this connection here.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_03: OK, this is about boundaries.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_03: I am me.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_03: You are you.
• 30:23
  I was like,
• 30:24
  this is his stuff that he's bringing to you has nothing to do
• 30:27
  with you.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_03: This is all him.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_03: So you have to have that clear delineation.
• 30:33
  So I kind of coached,
• 30:34
  I coached her through this process of coming into her own authority.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_03: And I just kept saying, he gets to be disappointed.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_03: It's okay.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_03: This is, we tell our kids all the time, life is not fair.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_03: this is your job is to disappoint people.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_03: My therapist used to tell me this too.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_03: Like your job is to,
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_03: when she was trying to really help me develop boundaries,
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_03: your job is to disappoint people.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_03: So it's,
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_03: it's both the ourselves resisting that disappointment,
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_03: feeling our own feelings of disappointment,
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_03: which is huge,
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_03: but it's also the,
• 31:20
  The challenge of holding our own and allowing the other to have disappointment.
• 31:27
  Yeah.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_00: So incredibly hard for moms.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_00: Not all.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_00: But I think this generation of moms, this is especially hard for.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_00: Not only can we not tolerate our disappointment,
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_00: we can't tolerate our children's disappointment.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_00: Huge.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_00: Huge.
• 31:46
  huge right this is where um that term snowplow i haven't heard
• 31:53
  parents oh the like
• 31:55
  clearing all the obstacles away for your child you know or or
• 31:59
  stepping in any time
• 32:01
  your child is experiencing loss it's like we can't tolerate our
• 32:06
  child's loss and so
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_00: we will
• 32:09
  fix the situation for them so that they don't have to
• 32:12
  experience the pain of disappointment.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_00: Disappointment is so threatening.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_03: Now this is an area where we have to have a both and, okay?
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_03: And where these layers connect, these three-dimensional maps connect.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_03: The being moved to fix something for our child is alpha.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_03: It's good.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_03: So when we have to balance that.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_03: When I was learning this material, my kids were really young.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_03: So boy, was there frustration.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_03: There was a lot.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_03: I picture myself out in the backyard on a snowy day with toddlers.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_03: Anyone who's had small children in snow.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_03: knows how many things don't work.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_03: They're cold.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_03: Their mittens are full of snow.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_03: They're crying.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_03: They're trying to do something.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_03: It's not work.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_03: So I would sit in myself and kind of make this conscious decision.
• 33:15
  I'm going to help make this work because in this moment,
• 33:20
  that's what's needed.
• 33:23
  But are there other times when we need to take a step back and
• 33:27
  stop the fixing?
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_03: in order that we're not an impediment to that adaptation process,
• 33:34
  that we're not an impediment to letting the tears flow and
• 33:38
  coming up against futility.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_03: So it is a dance.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_03: And so for listeners,
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_03: this requires us to keep both in mind and,
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_03: again,
• 33:47
  not pathologize the parents who are the snowplows who are
• 33:51
  trying to clear the impediments,
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_03: who are trying to make things work.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_03: That is an alpha stance,
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_03: but the alpha in us also has to,
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_03: thank goodness we can have this insight from Neufeld to say,
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_03: no,
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_03: you also...
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_03: have to be an alpha in providing the comfort for those tears to flow.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_03: And I just want to quickly say,
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_03: plug,
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_03: and we can move back to this later,
• 34:17
  but what he says is we are both the agents of futility and the
• 34:26
  agents of comfort.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_03: And I want to get to this at some point here.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_03: For a parent...
• 34:35
  with a trans-identified child who is not affirming,
• 34:40
  you are a huge agent of futility.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_03: We cannot diminish the futility and frustration that our child will feel,
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_03: whether they are under our care still,
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_03: under 18,
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_03: or older.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_03: Under our care,
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_03: we're saying no to things that they want,
• 35:07
  that they are driven emotionally towards probably through their
• 35:13
  own attachment instincts,
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_03: whatever that complex configuration may be for each child.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_03: And those attachment drives are so primal.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_03: They're survival drives.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, this is about survival, this drive to be close.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_03: So when we come in as an agent of futility,
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_03: their frustration and the futility that is likely not setting in,
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_03: okay,
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_03: it's likely not setting in.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_03: You know, that frustration is going to be huge.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not saying to not do it.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_03: I'm just trying to help people see what's happening in that dynamic.
• 35:53
  And then if they're older and we're not going along and we have
• 35:57
  no control,
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_03: it's going to be an emotional experience of frustration.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_03: Why isn't this person who's supposed to love me unconditionally?
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_03: Why are they accepting who I am?
• 36:12
  so this dance of being that agent and the comforter is so huge
• 36:18
  I just it humbles me
• 36:20
  to even like have this conversation I could cry I'm like
• 36:23
  tearing up right now yeah
• 36:25
  yeah yeah this is the challenge that we must rise to well and
• 36:35
  the complicating
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_00: factors of
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_00: Our culture not supporting us to be this agent of futility,
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_00: in fact,
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_00: demonizing us as we are this agent of futility and making it so,
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_00: so much harder for our child to accept our comfort,
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_00: to allow us to be the agent of comfort.
• 37:00
  because of the stories they have in their head about who their
• 37:02
  parent is.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 37:04
  You know,
• 37:04
  like we can't,
• 37:06
  it's just the difficulty of this cannot be understated.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_00: It's just overstated.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's so hard.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_00: And, and I can speak to that too.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_00: I,
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_00: I,
• 37:22
  I think I had that language or I had it near to the time that I
• 37:27
  did put those
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_00: boundaries in place.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_00: Around my child.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_00: And it was hard for her to accept my comfort.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know that she did.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_00: But I was able to do it in a neutral way, if that makes sense.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_00: To just be very matter-of-fact about it.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I experienced the rest that she felt from that.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_00: She did cry.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_00: She was very upset, hurt, confused.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_00: She shed her tears.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_00: And she stopped pressing for it.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_00: She never asked again.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_03: I think the futility was clear.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it set in, like he says, it landed.
• 38:25
  She experienced it emotionally and it helped her to develop
• 38:30
  like a workaround,
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_03: not like an avoidance workaround,
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_03: but like the brain adapted.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_03: And it was just off the plate.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_03: She left the work.
• 38:46
  One of the images he uses for this is an hourglass where at the
• 38:50
  top we're in the
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_03: sympathetic nervous system.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_03: That's work mode.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_03: That's frustration.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_03: That's over and over and over trying to change.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_03: You hit that thing you can't change.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_03: You're going to try to change it over and over.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_03: Whether it's your daughter trying to convince you
• 39:16
  or the parent who's trying to convince the child,
• 39:18
  it is like,
• 39:19
  whoa,
• 39:20
  we're working.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_03: We're frustrated.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_03: This also can be mad, that frustration when it turns to anger.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_03: We're angry.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_03: And it's so that cliche, the mad has to turn to sad.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_03: And we move through that narrow little...
• 39:34
  space between the top of that hourglass and the bottom where
• 39:39
  futility sinks in and
• 39:41
  we surrender to those tears to that emotion and then it flows
• 39:48
  out the other side as
• 39:49
  sadness and we switch from the sympathetic to the
• 39:53
  parasympathetic and what you just
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_03: said about rest this is why i went here
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_03: We go from work mode, trying to produce an outcome, to rest mode.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_03: And that is where we are also able to digest our experiences.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_03: And so it's this winter futility.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_03: Winter has to come before spring.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_03: Endings before beginnings.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_00: Destruction for the sake of renewal.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 40:33
  Christian,
• 40:34
  you know,
• 40:34
  the Easter season,
• 40:35
  we got the crucifixion before the resurrection.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_03: Sadness comes before happiness.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_00: And again, a physiological experience.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_00: This is an embodied experience.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_00: And you feel it.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_00: You do.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_00: You feel the surrender.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_00: You feel how it changes in your body, what you're experiencing.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_00: Let it go is such a great phrase for it.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_00: Because of the weight that goes with it.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and I have to just say this here, and I'm going to cry.
• 41:24
  You know,
• 41:27
  this was my experience with my son,
• 41:30
  was being that agent of futility for him.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_03: And the rest,
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_03: I knew he was going to be mad,
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_03: and I invited his aggression,
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_03: essentially.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_03: But what I was looking for
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_03: was the soft tears.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_03: Because there's tears of upset.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_03: And parents listening to this,
• 41:53
  I have no doubt you start to notice the difference once you get
• 41:57
  this idea,
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_03: this insight.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_03: The tears of upset are the resistance tears.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_03: They are pushing away the sadness.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_03: They're pushing away the futility.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_03: They're not giving up.
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_03: They're just screeching outward.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_03: You know, there's no internal shift.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_03: It's just outward.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_03: That's different than the soft tears that are the surrender.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_03: That's inward.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_03: That's a release from the inside out.
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_03: So I had become extremely familiar with my son's tears of upset.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_03: He almost never had soft tears.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_03: And this was one of the things that clued me in,
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_03: that this was not working for him,
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_03: that this was actually negatively affecting him,
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_03: this cross-sex identification,
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_03: because he was not adaptive.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_03: And so I had to work.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_03: I wanted everyone to hear this.
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_03: On our relationship,
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_03: and play for two years,
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_03: two years,
• 43:02
  to get him and I to a place where soft tears could be possible
• 43:06
  around this.
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_00: I love that you just distinguish those two types of tears.
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and it comes...
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_00: For me,
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_00: I've been explaining,
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_00: and I've even written a piece titled,
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_00: This Shouldn't Be Happening.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's when we are in that state,
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_00: this shouldn't be happening,
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_00: that the tears of upset are being shed.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I've worked with lots of moms trying to grapple.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_00: I've done so much crying.
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_00: You say, I need to shed my tears.
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_00: I've shed so many tears.
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_00: And now I love having this term.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_00: Those are tears of upset, not tears of surrender.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_00: that's so interesting,
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_00: too,
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_00: because also what's coming to mind,
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_00: and I don't want to take us too far off topic,
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_00: is the difference between sort of self-pity and self-compassion.
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_00: which has also come up, you know, and I've tied it to that same thing.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_00: I think the self-pity is the shouldn't be happening mindset.
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_00: The self-compassion is the safety that we can offer ourselves,
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_00: like you said at the beginning,
• 44:24
  when we can come alongside ourselves and be tender to this very
• 44:31
  disappointed part
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_00: who needs comfort.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 44:39
  And what comes to mind as you paint that picture is emergence
• 44:44
  and episode three.
• 44:45
  It's the difference between being in the steering wheel where
• 44:50
  you're almost elfying yourself.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_03: You're elfying yourself versus life is happening to me and I am a victim.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 45:03
  SPEAKER_00: That's what this shouldn't be happening mindset is.
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_00: That is, I am a victim.
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_00: And it's true.
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_00: You are.
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_00: You are.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_00: You are a victim of life circumstances.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_00: Until you adapt.
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_00: Until you come to that place of acceptance and surrender.
• 45:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_00: Which I have to say this always on the tail of that.
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_00: This is not the same as affirming your child.
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_00: Accepting the reality of your situation.
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_00: And the beauty of getting there is what happens next.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_00: After the surrender.
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_00: That's the springtime.
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_00: It's really hard to see, yes, you know, when you are in it.
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_00: To think that there's more than the black and the white,
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_00: the good and the bad,
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_00: the this or the that.
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_00: Which is, you know, I think that we're in that place of resistance.
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_00: that, that keeps us stuck there.
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 46:24
  So I have to tell another really quick story and then I want to
• 46:28
  talk about,
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_03: yeah,
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_03: I want to go a little further still.
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_03: So,
• 46:35
  I know my story and my situation is very different than parents
• 46:41
  of what we would
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_03: call rapid onset gender dysphoria kids who are,
• 46:47
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_03: not affirming in that struggle.
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_03: So I, you know, my story is different.
• 46:54
  But I will say part of my story was that we had socially
• 47:01
  transitioned our older son.
• 47:03
  SPEAKER_03: And then our younger son wanted to too.
• 47:09
  And he was so little,
• 47:11
  I mean so little,
• 47:13
  he could not figure out why we were saying no to him.
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_03: It was so unfair.
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_03: And I mean, talk about being despondent.
• 47:31
  I mean,
• 47:31
  the depression that I was in around this and knowing how unfair
• 47:36
  it seemed to him.
• 47:37
  And there was literally,
• 47:40
  like,
• 47:40
  actually no way to get through to explain it.
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_03: There's nothing I can do.
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_03: Because we're talking about a three-year-old.
• 47:52
  SPEAKER_03: You know, three, four-year-old.
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_03: So...
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_03: One day,
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_03: finally,
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_03: I just said,
• 47:59
  this is really frustrating for you because I am not doing what
• 48:09
  you want me to do.
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_03: And that was like the one thing that got, it shifted.
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_03: It shifted his energy.
• 48:21
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
• 48:23
  SPEAKER_03: And Newfeld didn't script it for me,
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_03: but come to find out,
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_03: just preparing for our conversation today,
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_03: there was a Newfeld faculty who does script this for you.
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_03: I was like, oh, I did what she's talking about.
• 48:34
  SPEAKER_03: I thought about it.
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_03: You are both that agent saying no, but you can also come alongside them.
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_03: This has got to be so frustrating for you.
• 48:49
  SPEAKER_03: That I'm not saying yes to this.
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_03: That's got to be one of the hardest things you've ever felt.
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_00: I used a similar line with my son,
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_00: actually,
• 49:05
  SPEAKER_00: who grapples so much with this,
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_00: too,
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_00: because of the conflicting messages he's getting.
• 49:09
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 49:12
  And I can only imagine the confusion and the pain that these
• 49:17
  kids are experiencing,
• 49:19
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_00: when they think that their parents are on the wrong side of something.
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_00: Correct.
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_00: And it's not computing for them.
• 49:28
  And this was the conversation we were having where I was having
• 49:31
  to lift up like,
• 49:32
  SPEAKER_00: does this make sense to you that this is who I am?
• 49:36
  SPEAKER_00: But I said that this must be so confusing and so painful.
• 49:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I am so sorry that this is what you're experiencing.
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I have to stand my ground.
• 49:52
  SPEAKER_00: Because I'm the mom in this family.
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_00: And he still goes through it.
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_00: But what's interesting on the other side is I'll see him be upset after a
• 50:09
  SPEAKER_00: conversation like this,
• 50:11
  SPEAKER_00: but then it brings him closer.
• 50:13
  SPEAKER_03: That's right.
• 50:13
  SPEAKER_00: He is softer toward me.
• 50:15
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 50:16
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
• 50:18
  Having that,
• 50:20
  if the futility registers for our child,
• 50:25
  and again,
• 50:25
  whatever age,
• 50:27
  Mm-hmm.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_03: It brings them back into relationship with us.
• 50:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I've heard this time and again, working with clients.
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_00: who recognize,
• 50:43
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 50:43
  this pattern of being both the agent of futility and comfort
• 50:49
  and then feeling the
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_00: emotional closeness from the child who is now seeking,
• 50:56
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 50:56
  SPEAKER_00: to be closer.
• 50:58
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 50:59
  SPEAKER_00: Because there is the alpha dynamic there.
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, that safety.
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, they can rest in the relationship to us.
• 51:08
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 51:12
  SPEAKER_00: which can seem paradoxical, right?
• 51:16
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 51:16
  it's not about having your kid like you and be happy with
• 51:21
  everything that is coming
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_00: from you for them.
• 51:25
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they seek that alpha.
• 51:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 51:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_00: The compass, the direction.
• 51:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 51:39
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 51:41
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, we have to consider how much alpha we can be, I think.
• 51:50
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe that's not the right way of saying it.
• 51:55
  Well,
• 51:55
  I think this is actually where we're going probably,
• 51:57
  is our futility.
• 52:00
  The futility a parent will experience around the decisions of
• 52:04
  an adolescent or
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_00: young adult child.
• 52:07
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 52:08
  SPEAKER_03: Yep, I did.
• 52:09
  SPEAKER_03: And I want to speak to that just briefly.
• 52:12
  SPEAKER_03: Or not briefly, but as I was preparing for this conversation today,
• 52:21
  SPEAKER_03: and kind of turning this concept of futility,
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_03: coming up against that which we cannot change,
• 52:27
  SPEAKER_03: over in my head from the parent perspective,
• 52:29
  SPEAKER_03: from the child perspective.
• 52:34
  SPEAKER_03: When I think about the child or the young adult,
• 52:41
  SPEAKER_03: and I know for each individual this might be different,
• 52:44
  SPEAKER_03: okay?
• 52:44
  SPEAKER_03: So I know this may not apply to everyone.
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_03: But if someone...
• 52:50
  SPEAKER_03: is in the space where they want to change their sex.
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_03: Let's just put it that way.
• 52:59
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, and driven on that train, on that path.
• 53:07
  SPEAKER_03: It is not possible.
• 53:09
  SPEAKER_03: Like, this is a futile endeavor.
• 53:13
  SPEAKER_03: Okay?
• 53:17
  SPEAKER_03: We know this.
• 53:17
  SPEAKER_03: Like, it doesn't matter how many surgeries.
• 53:19
  SPEAKER_03: It doesn't matter the medication.
• 53:20
  It doesn't matter everyone's calling you a different name,
• 53:24
  different pronouns.
• 53:28
  SPEAKER_03: It's impossible.
• 53:31
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, I got this image of, like,
• 53:36
  SPEAKER_03: if it is futile for a parent to be able to get their child to desist,
• 53:46
  SPEAKER_03: what if my job then becomes retreating into that relationship?
• 53:56
  SPEAKER_03: Just the focus becomes my relationship to my child.
• 54:03
  Let's say they're in their 20s and they've chosen that path and
• 54:05
  they're on it.
• 54:07
  SPEAKER_03: You have to be thinking 10, 20 years down the road.
• 54:10
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 54:11
  Who are they going to turn to if and when they hit that wall
• 54:19
  when that futility
• 54:20
  SPEAKER_03: sinks in for them?
• 54:22
  SPEAKER_03: It may never, but if it does, who do you want them to turn to?
• 54:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm hearing we need to be prepared to be the agent of comfort.
• 54:36
  SPEAKER_00: Correct.
• 54:41
  Yeah.
• 54:47
  SPEAKER_00: It's interesting.
• 54:48
  SPEAKER_00: I wrote a piece called Agents of Futility,
• 54:50
  definitely using Neufeld's term and the frustration at knowing
• 54:57
  nature is the agent
• 54:59
  SPEAKER_00: of futility here and our kids are being told differently,
• 55:03
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 55:04
  SPEAKER_00: the frustration in that.
• 55:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 55:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 55:08
  Yeah.
• 55:11
  SPEAKER_03: So we have so many tears of surrender to cry, you know.
• 55:15
  SPEAKER_00: To soften our own hearts.
• 55:19
  SPEAKER_00: So we can be those agents of comfort.
• 55:21
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 55:26
  SPEAKER_00: We need to feel the disappointment.
• 55:31
  SPEAKER_00: Frankly, of the time and place we live in.
• 55:33
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 55:34
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 55:34
  SPEAKER_03: Huge thing we can't control.
• 55:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 55:41
  SPEAKER_03: But somehow find the beauty of it as well.
• 55:43
  You know,
• 55:44
  and I just think about that snowplow parent or the parent that
• 55:47
  gets in the way of
• 55:49
  SPEAKER_03: the child experiencing futility and therefore becoming adaptive,
• 55:54
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 55:55
  and it's almost like if you are not going to lose anything by
• 56:02
  focusing on the
• 56:04
  SPEAKER_03: relationship to your child,
• 56:06
  SPEAKER_03: that's probably,
• 56:07
  SPEAKER_03: I know it's your child's best bet in their entire life.
• 56:12
  SPEAKER_03: that relationship to you.
• 56:14
  SPEAKER_03: It is their best bet.
• 56:16
  So in this scenario,
• 56:18
  boy,
• 56:18
  you got nothing to lose by having that be your priority.
• 56:25
  And I think we need to talk to those parents who are watching
• 56:35
  their child transform
• 56:38
  SPEAKER_00: in a way that feels
• 56:45
  SPEAKER_00: Is that a word?
• 56:48
  SPEAKER_00: Did I say that right?
• 56:48
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I understand what you're saying.
• 56:52
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 56:53
  like there's a certain sense of disgust that I think also can
• 57:00
  create shame in a parent.
• 57:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 57:02
  SPEAKER_00: To feel disgust when you look at your child.
• 57:05
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 57:06
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 57:06
  SPEAKER_00: That can be, for some it feels intolerable.
• 57:12
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 57:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 57:15
  SPEAKER_00: And they don't think they can witness it.
• 57:18
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 57:21
  SPEAKER_03: It takes me back to the birth of my son.
• 57:24
  SPEAKER_03: I'm just going to go here.
• 57:25
  SPEAKER_03: Who I had imagined a home birth.
• 57:28
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 57:28
  SPEAKER_03: We planned a home birth.
• 57:30
  SPEAKER_03: We had the best midwife.
• 57:33
  SPEAKER_03: You know, all the things of pregnancy, the herbs, the, you know, well...
• 57:40
  SPEAKER_03: Long story short,
• 57:40
  SPEAKER_03: I made decisions that I will forever grieve,
• 57:45
  SPEAKER_03: but he ended up being in the NICU when he was born.
• 57:50
  SPEAKER_03: So here I am.
• 57:51
  SPEAKER_03: I've read all the books.
• 57:53
  SPEAKER_03: I'm going for the skin on skin, breastfeeding.
• 57:58
  SPEAKER_03: And I had to accompany my son in an incubator.
• 58:04
  SPEAKER_03: And we didn't know if he was going to live or die.
• 58:05
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
• 58:11
  SPEAKER_03: And you can't hold him.
• 58:12
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 58:13
  SPEAKER_03: And in that moment, I wanted to run away.
• 58:19
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
• 58:20
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 58:21
  SPEAKER_03: Because it was a pain I did not know if I could bear.
• 58:25
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 58:28
  SPEAKER_03: And I could not.
• 58:30
  SPEAKER_03: I had to do everything I could to connect through the plastic.
• 58:37
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 58:40
  SPEAKER_03: And we did.
• 58:42
  SPEAKER_03: We did.
• 58:42
  We put our sweat-filled,
• 58:44
  stinky shirts,
• 58:47
  you know,
• 58:48
  alongside for the smell.
• 58:49
  SPEAKER_03: You know, we did everything that we could.
• 58:51
  SPEAKER_03: So it's just to say,
• 58:53
  SPEAKER_03: when I think about the parent in this situation,
• 58:56
  SPEAKER_03: I think about that incubator.
• 58:57
  SPEAKER_03: I think about the pain.
• 58:58
  SPEAKER_03: It got bigger than.
• 59:03
  SPEAKER_03: And how do you maintain a connection?
• 59:07
  Yeah.
• 59:08
  SPEAKER_03: How do you not run away?
• 59:12
  SPEAKER_03: And I think about the eyes.
• 59:15
  SPEAKER_03: Their eyes are still there.
• 59:16
  SPEAKER_03: Their eyes are still the same.
• 59:17
  SPEAKER_03: The voice may be different.
• 59:20
  SPEAKER_03: The clothing.
• 59:20
  SPEAKER_03: You know, there may be so many things that are irreversibly changed.
• 59:24
  SPEAKER_03: Even the smell.
• 59:25
  SPEAKER_00: Even the smell is different.
• 59:26
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 59:29
  SPEAKER_03: What can you find?
• 59:30
  SPEAKER_03: Primal.
• 59:31
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 59:33
  SPEAKER_03: What can you find to maintain that lifeline, even if it's a fantasy?
• 59:38
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
• 59:39
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 59:41
  SPEAKER_03: even if it's in your imagination.
• 59:49
  Because they need you to still see them when they walk in the
• 59:53
  door with a twinkle in your eye.
• 59:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, they need you to delight in them and have that invitation.
• 1:00:06
  SPEAKER_00: And when they're not there, feel the disappointment.
• 1:00:10
  SPEAKER_00: That's when you can weep.
• 1:00:14
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you said something too earlier about how it's easier now.
• 1:00:20
  SPEAKER_00: Because...
• 1:00:23
  SPEAKER_00: of the four years you went through.
• 1:00:24
  SPEAKER_00: And, and I think too, you said this is both a means and an end.
• 1:00:31
  SPEAKER_00: Oh yes.
• 1:00:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 1:00:32
  SPEAKER_00: Which I, that's something else I just want to really drive home here.
• 1:00:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:00:39
  That as you move through this process and as we facilitate it
• 1:00:44
  for our children,
• 1:00:47
  SPEAKER_00: It softens our heart.
• 1:00:49
  SPEAKER_00: It makes it easier.
• 1:00:51
  SPEAKER_00: We become more adaptive.
• 1:00:54
  SPEAKER_00: It's hard at first if we are defended against these things.
• 1:00:57
  SPEAKER_00: It's so hard.
• 1:01:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:01:03
  But once you move through it,
• 1:01:05
  and even I think it can be helpful to understand.
• 1:01:08
  SPEAKER_00: You don't need to understand what's happening as you move through it.
• 1:01:11
  SPEAKER_00: It's going to soften you anyway.
• 1:01:15
  SPEAKER_00: But knowing that
• 1:01:18
  SPEAKER_00: That the outcome of adaptation is more adaptability.
• 1:01:23
  SPEAKER_03: That's right.
• 1:01:25
  SPEAKER_03: That's right.
• 1:01:27
  SPEAKER_03: That's a beautiful way to say it.
• 1:01:32
  SPEAKER_03: And we can feel that melancholy in our hearts, you know?
• 1:01:37
  SPEAKER_03: And like you said,
• 1:01:37
  SPEAKER_03: you used the word tender,
• 1:01:39
  SPEAKER_03: tenderness at some point today,
• 1:01:40
  SPEAKER_03: and it's like,
• 1:01:42
  SPEAKER_03: it makes our hearts more tender to those around us.
• 1:01:48
  SPEAKER_00: That can feel really scary.
• 1:01:51
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:01:53
  SPEAKER_00: Melancholy hurts.
• 1:01:55
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it does.
• 1:01:57
  And once your heart softens in this way,
• 1:02:00
  there's something exquisite in the melancholy.
• 1:02:06
  Once you understand why it's there and the importance of it to
• 1:02:12
  our human experience
• 1:02:13
  SPEAKER_00: and our capacity to see others,
• 1:02:15
  SPEAKER_00: our compassion...
• 1:02:17
  SPEAKER_00: You know, our humanity.
• 1:02:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:02:22
  And how defended so many people are against that experience and
• 1:02:27
  what it's doing to their hearts.
• 1:02:30
  SPEAKER_00: Breaks my heart.
• 1:02:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:02:36
  SPEAKER_00: This is what our hearts are for.
• 1:02:37
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 1:02:41
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for listening.
• 1:02:43
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• 1:02:46
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• 1:02:49
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• 1:02:51
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• 1:02:53
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• 1:02:58
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• 1:02:59
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• 1:03:02
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• 1:03:03
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