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ABA Business Leaders Podcast: Empathic Leadership and Supporting RBTs · ABA Business Leaders

• speaker-0: Hi everyone, I'm April. National Wellness Month, and in honor of National Wellness Month, we're going to be re-releasing some previous episodes that look at burnout, stress, mental health, and more. We'll also be using this time to enjoy the little tiny slice of Canadian summer that we get here with our family and friends. speaker-1: And I'm Steven. Each re aired episode is intended to not only give us and our team a little bit of a break, but it's also designed to make sure that you don't miss out on the best episodes during our busy summer schedule. speaker-0: Whether you're listening for the first time, welcome or revisiting these episodes, we hope that they give you some practical ideas, fresh perspective, and maybe even a little reminder to take care of yourself along the way. speaker-1: And we'll be back in September with some brand new episodes, exciting guests, and some huge news ⁓ that we're really excited to be sharing soon. speaker-0: So until then, enjoy today's episode and have a wonderful summer and thanks for listening to the ABA Business Leaders Podcast. Hello, everybody. Here we are again today with two of our panel members, Mallory and Jennifer. We're so happy to have them with us today. Thank you so much. ⁓ yeah, so today we're gonna be talking about empathetic leadership and how we can support our techs. We've talked about this multiple times. ⁓ and we're continuing to talk about this because we all really we want to see our fields improve. And yeah. I don't know where I'm going with that, Steven. Where where do you want to say? speaker-1: I mean like I just I I think that ⁓ RBTs, I ⁓ I would say a majority of them feel used, feel like they're lesser than, feel like that that they're they're not worthy, maybe. I don't know about that one, but maybe. ⁓ and and I I just for the companies that we work with at least what I hear a lot is like RBTs are the most critical part of an ABA practice. Well let's treat them like they are because a lot of practices are just not doing that. Obviously. Again, we talked about this a couple weeks ago, but all of these things on Reddit can't be ⁓ false, right? I I don't I don't believe it. Not for like these are well meaning for the most part concerned individuals that want to do a good job and for many reasons ⁓ they're having they're struggling, right? Right. And I think we talked to somebody I can't remember where, but he said he ran into a I don't think that this RPT worked for him, but he he was at Starbucks and ⁓ he was just having a a conversation with a barista and ⁓ he was like, Yeah, I used to be an RBT and I I couldn't do it. Like there was too much stress and burnout and I was making I make more here. So that that can like Yeah, that that needs to change, right? speaker-0: So I finally did it. Steven's been talking about like how Reddit is a really great place for to gather information, right? And so I did it. I I put a timer on though. I didn't allow myself because I could totally have like just been so absorbed in the Yes, I I completely put a timer on myself. But ⁓ so I have some notes here and I'm going to be ⁓ quoting some random people speaker-1: It's it's hard though. Yeah. speaker-0: who post it on Reddit. I they they have handles. I'm not gonna share their handles. I didn't even write their handles down when I was writing my notes. My whole point here was I just wanted to gather like a general sense of things, right? Okay. ⁓ this is by no no means like a huge deep dive. It doesn't take into consideration everyone's view of course, right? There's just like like I don't know 30 minutes on Reddit. And then also just something important to say too we tended to say RBTs ⁓ but we mean all all of you guys out there, all of the the line workers, right whether you still are called behavioral therapist or you know, ABA therapist, tech, B T, behavior tech, R B T. You don't have to you know, this isn't just about those people who have the the specific credential, it's the the f this level of of work, the of ⁓ position. ⁓ so so I'm gonna share a few things and then ⁓ we invited you know, Mallory and Jen here so that we can have a conversation of, you know, to talk about this, like, ⁓ to empathize with with these guys and also like how we do it differently and how we can to like what are some solutions? What are some how can we take some steps forward to help ⁓ So ⁓ so one of the first one is ⁓ you know, someone said that they get the sense when they come to work ⁓ f from their B C BAs, from their supervisors, and this was like clinical space said that they just kind of feel like they as soon as they show up, they have to just grin and bear it. ⁓ and that's that's how they're that's how they function through work every day, is they just gotta grin and bear it. someone else said that the system is on the brink of collapse and just the six months I've been in the field. I've seen the sentiment get really bad. The system relies on abusing the RBT. Get out while you still can Of course a lot of these that are read, like I really want to ask follow up questions. Tell me more about that. Like what does this look like for you? You know, it so I you know, it is what it is. ⁓ and then someone said that they were on I don't know if I should do a trigger warning, but there might be some sensitive matter that comes up during this conversation. ⁓ someone said that they were on medical leave because I was literally becoming suicidal about having to go to work. ⁓ when you are forced into situations that are uncomfortable or too difficult, it gets exhausting. ⁓ left mostly because of the people in charge. Not a good job in general for making a living. ⁓ just from my brief dive in, it looked like a lot of people were more unhappy with centers and clinics than they were within home. I'm sure that I could specifically look for in home and find find just as many there. But I was I was just kind of surprised in general because a lot of people, you know, in home we already kind of know that at least w with our agency, like we really tried to support because it's so easy to feel alone and you know, when you're out in into in the world by yourself ⁓ in home. But th yeah, so this person said, like being an RBT. I find it meaningful. I feel like I'm good at it. I'm struggling right now because I despise the work culture of the clinic. exploring in home to escape the nitpicky clickish culture of centers. some people said that they were really happy about being an RBT and they felt like c they could make a difference ⁓ but like they didn't want to support such a dysfunctional field. No. Little snippet. I couldn't ask follow up qu I I guess I could, but I didn't ask follow up questions. I was just perusing in in there. I don't even have an account. ⁓ so those are like that end of it. And I feel like I just want to go ahead and jump into this other side really quickly, ⁓ so that we can make sure that we're really so that we're here doing what like the following the values of how I want to show up. We and then we can still go back and talk about those ⁓ 'cause I don't want to dismiss those comments of the people who are unhappy. ⁓ But there was one when I was going through there was a there was a post where s it was a parent came in and posted. Like, I get that, you know, she was like, I get that he or she, I don't know, was I get that it's really hard to be a tech and there's a lot of the heavy burnout, but I just wanna say that my techs are absolutely phenomenal and my child put their shoes on this morning and we were able to go on a family outing with no elopement and This means the world to me, and it's because of you guys that are doing the hard work, right? And so then there was a lot of call there were a lot of comments from that, ⁓ saying like that ⁓ you know, a lot of warm fuzzy, right? There were I think 180 comments from that from tech saying, Wow, I wish I heard this more often. No one ever tells me I don't hear any of these positive feedback, not even from my supervisor. Sometimes a family member will tell me something positive and then report that they told my supervisor six months ago, but I never heard about it. and then there was another post that was like, What are the perks of being an RBT? And so someone a lot of people are saying it's what they learned while being an RBT or what they are learning while being an RBT. ⁓ they're learning to be more patient, they're learning to be more tolerant. ⁓ they're finding themselves less quick to react in general, not just with their clients, understanding of people's needs, becoming more empathetic, seeing your client learn something new. And so yeah, and and so then the sense I got in some of the other messages, ⁓ posts that people were putting on there, ⁓ it's like they want to feel appreciated. ⁓ a positive heartfelt comment from a parent about how their work is making such a difference in their lives can mean all the different, you know, it could mean so much to them. And so what I was wondering is how can we ⁓ and then there's other part here that and someone said that they were really lucky to work with amazing BCBAs who supported them emotionally. speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: and gave thorough training and met with them on a regular basis. ⁓ someone else said that their B C B A taught them how to hone into people's skills that they didn't know. And someone else said that they gained confidence in themselves because of their training with their B C B A. So that's that's the s that's the synopsis that I got from this. So what I'm wondering is like so what I kind of got out of that is okay, we need they they need to they need to receive more ⁓ speaker-1: Okay. speaker-0: Reinforcement, like they're not g it's not coming and if it's coming, it's not coming soon enough. And the other thing too is it sounds like and then not as well, there were some people on there in general that were like, Well, this field and ⁓ doesn't really make enough money in this field anyways and you know, it's a dead end and I feel like we kind of we've heard a lot of that before, right? Like it's a dead end job, we don't make enough money, the schedule's crap, we you know, that kind of thing. speaker-3: Those are not really people who should be in the field to begin with, in my opinion. Yeah. speaker-0: And that's what I gonna say because I also looked in like other fields. Like I looked at linemen and dental hygienists. So I I took a piece and these random other and I said, How wonder how many of these like hate messages or I hate my jobs are in here? And there was and and those are the kind of things that were in there. Ugh my schedule cr is crap. ⁓ I don't make enough money for this. you know, the linemen, a lot of them were like it's physically demanding. Well, I can imagine, right? You know, there's there's gonna be some burnout there. But for this, I was like, well, how can we focus on like for those people who this is in line with their skill set? This is this job is the right job for them. They are enjoying the idea of being an ABA therapist and the stuff that comes along with it, but they're f they're not con they're not getting enough reinforcement for what they're doing. And they're and it sounds like here like they're wanting to be like the s the soft skills that they're learning along the way seem to be invaluable. So I don't know. I'll throw it up to you guys. What are what are your thoughts after hearing this? speaker-3: Mallory, you want me to go first? You wanna go first? I've got a whole bunch to say. speaker-2: You can go first if you're ready 'cause I have so many yeah, thoughts. speaker-3: Okay, so first of all, April, I think you're right. I'm gonna focus on the people who who should be in this profession, in this industry. ⁓ first of all, I don't think the the field's about to collapse on itself or die or anything like that. That's that's a little melodramatic. I think there's a lot of changes that do need to be made. We've talked about that multiple times. I think from the beginning of this AVA podcast that we've done, we've always talked about the value of the technician and how Everybody needs to be valued and feel like they are appreciated and the technicians are professionals and need to be treated as such. They should not be treated as less than. It should not be, ⁓ you're just an RBT. ⁓ It is you're an RBT and you're an integral part of this team. ⁓ the bigger the overarching thing that I'm hearing in a lot of those remarks is it's leadership. It starts from the top and it starts from the culture and the investment in their in their team. How they even talk about their team. Are they employees or are they team members? You know, that's a big thing. Words do matter. and there's times I will say staff or or employees, but that's when I'm talking into a business with a business person, you know, maybe my CPA or something, they're not gonna look at it like that. When I'm talking about my team, I talk about them as my team. We are interdependent on each other. There is a There's a relationship here that needs to be recognized on both parties. And so I'm going to again focus on people who who love the RBT position, not people who are like, well, it's not what you're you're not doing this for me. the people that you want to invest in need to be recognized. They need to be appreciated. One of the things we do on a regular basis is share the feedback from parents. Because that is so important to for them to know that the parents are thanking them, you know, thank you for and how much the parents worry about them. The parents worry about, ⁓ did he hit you today? ⁓ gosh, I hope you don't hate my child and not want to come back. You know, and and really, really talking to them about how how important they are to the parent and to that child and their development and their success. And in terms of leadership, I mean you can you can kind of silo that out between your, you know, clinical and your company, you know, whoever, because not all BCBAs who are wonderful BCBAs. can do what they know is right because of maybe the center that they're working for, right? So there's that business component that doesn't always probably align with what how the BCBA would do something. ⁓ But leadership is a huge thing and and investing in your in your RBTs because I look at every one of my RBTs as somebody who could potentially be a BCBA, who could potentially be a speech pathologist, who could potentially go into occupational therapy, who could be a teacher, whatever it is. This is a really important position. It is incredibly important. And it is a stepping stone for bigger things. ⁓ and it needs to be treated as such. It needs to be recognized. And I'm sorry for those people who are who have that experience because that nothing that you've read is anything I have not heard when we're like when we're interviewing for a position. And I think it's just being mindful of where you work, you know. ⁓ smaller, more intimate ⁓ centers and in home therapy are gonna tend to they're gonna take care of their technicians more because they can't give them the money that they want. ⁓ and there's a lot of places that underpay underpay staff too. Like I'm appalled at some of the stuff I see, the rates I see for some of my for technicians here in in Texas. And it's like, wow. I mean, no wonder these people are burnt out. No wonder. Then they're they're then they're just like you just do it. To the grid, there's the one of the points I do want to mention on the grin and barret. There is ⁓ there is a relationship there as well. There you need to leave your your your problems at the door when you're working with the kids, right? Like do you need to focus your attention on the child at that time, however. That doesn't mean that you can't, you shouldn't feel as though you can't go to your BCBA or to a a member of leadership and say, Hey, I've got some personal things going on right now. You know, can I take a quick 10-minute break? Or and be it's not that, you know, you need to share, you can share as comfortable as you're with with that person, but making sure that you have support there so that we all have bad days, we all have times. Life is hard and there's times where you really do need somebody to say, hey, listen, I get it. You're going through a rough patch right now. What can I do to support you? How can I help you here? But when you're with the child, you're with the child. ⁓ So there has to be that recognition from that standpoint. But you should never, never just that's just not how you want to treat. I mean, I it it's amazing to me because it's like, is that how you would want to be treated? You know, and the way that people ⁓ you know, we we have comment we've had conversations about elitist B C B A's and you know, and we've had conversations about amazing B C BAs. There the field itself is should not be blamed. It's always gotta rest on the leadership and the technici and the clinician. That that's just plain and simple. The buck starts stops at the leadership team. be it the be it the business team, the clinical team, what however the whoever the leadership is, a lot of that falls on the leadership. But there is a there is a a sense there is a side of accountability and re and and responsibility on the technicians too. You know, I'm not saying there isn't. But yeah, it's it's unfortunate because I do think sometimes I've seen great talent Or heard of or seen people and be like, Man, I'm so sorry that you were burned because you could have been a really great I could have seen you move further in this field. But you were so, you know, just hearing stories from people. And so I'm like, I'm so sorry that was your experience. I I really am, because this is a pretty amazing thing to know you're changing a child's life like this. So that's just kind of that's kind of where I'm landing on it at the moment. I'll turn it over to Valerie. speaker-2: I think you mic dropped after that. So I'm not sure I'm not sure that I can follow that. I think one of the things that just really kept coming to mind is that ⁓ you know people talk about like the five different love languages, right? They talk about that in general. And ⁓ my one of my first love languages is words of affirmation. So that's super important to me. and I think that it's It's hard because I use that as a way to try to connect my team and make sure that they feel appreciated. But I don't think it's always, you know, it's not always you know, received that way 'cause maybe that's not their actual love language. So I do, you know, always need to try to continue to change things up. I do give, you know, small tokens of appreciation, those kind of things. But really, ⁓ as we're talking about this, like one of the biggest things is I'm wondering if it's not more of like what we do for them, right, to show appreciation, but it's who is doing it because the reality is is I can say it over and over and over again. But I only do in home services. And so it really comes it it means the most when it's coming from the families, right? The families who are the ones who are witnessing the tech every day and they're seeing, yes, I mean, they feel awful. Like I just don't want my kid to hit you today. And you know, trying to reassure them like it's it's, you know, it's okay. If he has a hard day today, that's okay. We're gonna move on and start tomorrow like it's completely fresh, like it never even happened, right? ⁓ so I think that that's the thing. So how can we empower parents or equip parents more into being able to do that? Because I think also there's a little bit of a disconnect, right? We're talking a little bit about ethics here, where it was like, Well you can't, you know, the families can't buy presents for the techs. And that's fine. And now it's changed was like under ten dollars, I think. That like understand that I'm like, is that under ten dollars every single day? Or is that other ⁓ under ten dollars like you know, just once a year? So right, right. There's always some girl area in ethics, it seems like. But ⁓ I think that ⁓ even as a teacher, one of my things was is that ⁓ you know I would send out a letter shortly before Christmas just saying, like, gifts are not needed. You know, if you want to send something, have the kids make me something, have the kids speaker-3: Yeah. speaker-2: Draw me a picture, have a you know the kids do those things. So even in quick equipping the parents into trying to do those kind of things with their children, you know, kind of pass off to the text, using you know those words, those times for them to ⁓ be able to express it to the text. ⁓ kind of on the other side of that, I feel like ⁓ maybe I'm working to protect sometimes my text. When families aren't super forward about like the things that they appreciate and are a little bit more critical of the things that they're seeing, right, in the home, it's very quick to it it's so easy to point out all of the negative things sometimes, right? ⁓ because our kiddos are struggling. I mean, that's just the bottom line, right? But most of them are that's why we're there. That's why we're there, right? So it's easy to pick out some of those things. It's not always easy to pick out, hey, you know what? Even though it was a three hour really difficult session today, I saw that you, you know, pulled him close and you guys were able to sit and actually work on a skill, you know, for even five minutes and he had a smile on his face, or he was just calm, like he had a calm body, right? Like noticing those things, because as BCBAs for me specifically, like those are the things that I notice. Those are the things that I'm looking for because I start to see the relationship building, especially early on, right? I see the relationship. Are they pairing all? Are they connecting? Is this something that we're going to continue to be able to, you know, nurture and develop ⁓ over time? ⁓ and so just continuing to equip the parents in showing appreciation. How can I show appreciation? Maybe I need to do, you know, maybe some events or something. I feel like oftentimes this HIPAA compliance thing and making sure everything is separate, you know, really hinders us from creating more of a community amongst our families, you know, like I feel really, really ⁓ conflicted all the time when I have older clients who really need some more socialization. And I want to start, you know, social groups. And okay, even if we don't start a social group with multiple kids, then is it considered more of just like a play date? And is that is that acceptable? Like, you know, and then I have to get permission from both families and I just don't want to ever do anything, you know, in quotes wrong. but if that's what the child needs. So I think, yeah, that that just keeps coming back to my mind is like how can I equip the parents ⁓ to do it, you know, to do it more. I, you know, we're we're sitting here a lot of the time, you know, how can we show our tech's appreciation? ⁓ I think sometimes even the BCAs get skipped over though too, right? Because we're on the we're on the back end, we're creating the treatment plans, they're delivering it for us. They are the me, right, of our practice, like a hundred percent. But it's also hard too, because on the other side, like we're in the background trying to, you know, stay positive, keep everything moving forward and making sure, you know, progress is going too. So, ⁓ you know, for RBTs, I think we can all be honest with each other. Any techs and VCs, we can be honest with each other. Like this is a hard field and we don't feel appreciated sometimes. And ⁓ I think Jen, when you said like I look at every tech that comes to me as like a potential to continue to move forward with my company and be a true asset, like that is very true. I think it's hard when I talk to some of the techs ⁓ that come in and I'm saying, you know, Hey, would you ever consider if I see something great, right? Would you ever consider moving forward? And some of them were like, That's a lot of school. That's a lot of years from now. That's a lot, you know, to obtain. so when people are saying, you know, this is a dead end job. I don't know. I mean, if they're coming in at entry level and they're not willing to start putting that amount of work into it, it kind of is, right? I I mean, you can be a lead RBT, right? You can maybe even be a programmer. Some companies I know have just like programming ⁓ positions that I I guess, you know, maybe nurturing that a little bit more too would be helpful. But I do I mean I do look at them, you know, just like you, Jen. I mean, is this someone who is gonna stick with me and someone who I can, you know, help further along? speaker-0: I was just gonna say I didn't know if you wanted to say anything about the dead end job re in regards to text. speaker-1: Yeah, I mean I I I don't I mean I have a lot to say, but like I guess the way I would approach this is a little bit of the opposite. ⁓ so you know, if let's say you are in leadership, maybe you're not a B C B A, maybe this is run by non-B C BAs, or even if you are, looking at it selfishly, just as like, okay This is annoying. I don't wanna have to deal with this, right? Like ⁓ it is a dead end job. Like ev let's say all these things are true. Like ⁓ just looking at the profitability of the company, ⁓ to ⁓ maximize services, assuming that quality of services is important to you. It should be important to you if you're listening to this. Just looking at it from that, like encouraging your team like just from a selfish standpoint is going to improve services, right? It's going like if your team feels important, they feel welcome in your company, that is going to in turn provide better services for the parents and the families that you're working with. Like and again, just forget about how it could impact the techs themselves, right? Like let's But it's going it's going to improve your bottom line if you just treat people r like humans. You know what I mean? Like and and while I don't look at it that way, like but it it maybe ⁓ others can look at it that way and then maybe they can say, Okay, fine, maybe we'll add these things ⁓ to our systems because yes, it will improve things. So I I don't know. It maybe I can get some buy in that way. ⁓ but like as far as a dead end job, I would hope I don't know how I feel about that. I don't want it to be a dead end job, but like the rates that we have, it kind of it kind of is a dead end job. I I mean, to a certain extent. Especially like you said, if you're not willing to put in the time to get your masters and, you know, like April ⁓ Ura B C A B A, right? And like we're trying to like even do CEUs. And like it's like, ⁓ how dare you try to do CE is right like it's like, okay, fine. Like why did you create this position, right? You're you're you're essentially making it a dead end job and so then I don't know. So like I I I yeah, but yeah, there. Have I said enough? speaker-2: think one of the dead end things though might it's just like that thought or that feeling or idea because ⁓ sometimes I don't maybe and maybe we're using maybe we need to use a different term than like dead end job because I think ⁓ we all may feel some of that just because our job never ends. Yes, even if we discharge a client, I still stay up at night worrying about that client that I discharged. Is he going through puberty now and struggling? Is he still connecting socially? Like I I mean it always goes beyond discharge, at least for me. ⁓ I know ⁓ most other PCBAs, ⁓ you know, it's similar for them. That they're, you know, worried. They we care about our clients, we truly do. ⁓ and even for techs, right? It's very rare that you have a tech that's on a case from the beginning and they're able to even be a part, right? Even if they just stay with the company all the way through when that child you know, is discharged. I have a client who's getting ready to discharge. And I was thinking the other day, I don't have any of my OG staff who started that client. You know what I mean? And so ⁓ that's hard. I I think that's hard. It it doesn't ever end. And then we discharge him and guess what? I have ten more people on the wait list willing and ready to take his ⁓ things. So maybe it's not that dead end job. Maybe it's just that it just doesn't ever end, right? And it's like, are we feeling a sense of accomplishment? speaker-0: I I like that idea, like that that sense of accomplishment 'cause I wonder too, like, does dead end mean like 'cause I i and this would be this would be again like I was saying before we started recording, it's like I I really have a lot of questions to ask, right? And so, ⁓ I'm gonna just put that plug out there again. Any techs who wanna talk to me, you don't have to come on camera. You don't you can stay anonymous. I would love to have a conversation. but i maybe dead in as far as like pay maybe but like you get to that you get to that level and there's no but there are some ways there are some to to like have different levels and to learn new skills. But there again I think that that looks at like the values and the intentions behind like what what do you mean by dead end job? Are you wanting more appreciation or are you saying that man, this is like doing the dishes. It's never done, right? You're gonna have more dishes to wash even if these are done. Is it like You know, I'm not gonna make more money. Is it that I I I would love to be able to work on a passion project and use my creativity more than I'm able to right now. So yeah, definitely there it could be looked at many ways, but I do feel like you know, w we all know, right? We all know that we're very limited with ⁓ because of funding. speaker-1: Yeah, I mean the good news is is that there's lots of opportunity, right? ⁓ because I mean if you read those cards, hey, look at all the things I can do. ⁓ so yeah, I I think that there is opportunity to encourage, opportunity to support, opportunity and you know, the board is now coming out with requiring techs to have supervi or ⁓ CEUs. So maybe that's an opportunity too. I think that's a great thing to kind of push people into have that ongoing learning and continuous support, right? So I think that that may help. ⁓ yeah. speaker-0: ⁓ Jen, I think you're wanting to say something. speaker-3: A couple things. One to Mallory's point about the families. The families don't always I don't think parents understand the impact the kids make on the staff, on the on their on their therapists, right? When we've had kids graduate out of our program and maybe it was maybe for one of my therapists, it was one of the first kids they ever worked with. They were sad. I mean, it was a it's a bittersweet feeling, right? Like you've invested, you you have this relationship with this little person that you have watched come from point A to point B and the blood, sweat, and tears that you went through together. And I think parents don't always understand that you're dealing with a with a person who has invested in your child and there's some real emotion there. You know, and it's hard. It's really hard. You're so excited for that child, but then you're sad because it's like, ⁓ I don't get to see my little my little person today anymore. But I'm so excited for everything that's gonna happen but I know I probably will never hear from this person again. Like I, you know, you've made all this change helped make all this meaningful change and you've walked in this transitional journey with these with these parents and they're their children. And so I think that that's a that's something that is missed a lot of times for for team members. And you know, dead end job, I mean, I feel like there's you can say that about any profession. You know, you're you're gonna max out at some point everywhere you go. There there's just there's just nothing you can do about that. I mean, that's just but you're gonna It's you're going to make it a dead-end job by your mentality, you know, in my opinion. Now, are there some jobs that yeah, that's just what it is? Yeah, it is, but that doesn't mean you can't make the best of it and make it be the best whatever you're at in that position. You know, how how are you gonna move up in a company anyway if if you're not gonna give a hundred percent in every position that you're in? You know, how how is that even fair? Like I'm supposed to take that on faith that if I promote you, you're all of a sudden gonna make all these amazing changes. You know, I mean that's then my final thing is is like it's interesting to me that a per a field that talks about reinforcement and how we're always supposed to, you know, help help this behavior change through reinforcement. We're not doing it to our own team. You know, you're not. It just it it's so much easier, like Mallory said, we all notice the negative. We everybody notices it. But we're not adhering to our own our own hey, if you gave one negative, you need to do three to five more positives on that negative, right? And i if you follow that with your team alone, you would see a lot of change. Just just acknowledging it. And you know, Mallory talks about, you know, she does little things for her team and and and we try to do that too. And we have shout outs and Not just from the B C B A's, but for each other, acknowledging each other as technicians to each other, like, hey, thanks so much for for grabbing, ⁓ picking up after me. I was in a you know, it and and that kind of stuff that also builds that that family team mentality where everybody's recognizing it and you everybody feels value because it every things are getting noticed from everyone. You know, to Mallory's point, it's not just coming from a a specific person, it's a team effort. And I think that that's the sense of community that people want to be a part of. You know, I I speaker-2: I think it it I think it is super important. I mean, I have when we do overlaps with you know, we do a lot of overlaps with my company and I mean just this week, you know, like at one of the gals that was overlapping on ⁓ on a case where the you know tech is coming onto the thing. And you know, she texted me and like, Hey, it it went so great this morning. And I literally just screenshot it and sent it to that tech because I didn't know how she felt about how the session went that morning, but Like I need her to know, right, that positive things are being said about her behind the scenes, right? Because and it's even more so because we only do in home services and meet once a month, right? Like we meet once a month together as a whole team. We don't have hours upon hours to t to talk about those things and say those things to each other. I mean we try to do our best for sure, you know, for sure for the reinforcement. I think that one of the other things I kind of kind of giggle at I just think ⁓ you know when somebody said like this field is so dysfunctional like you know that saying like every family has dysfunction It doesn't matter what field you're in. It doesn't matter what company you're in, right? Because the thing is is I go I've went from company to different company contract, you know, with one company and then contract with another. It's like every company has some sort of dysfunction. ⁓ is just more tolerable than others, right? Or you know But I think just the the commitment that some of us have just to continue to try to make things better, right? Like I don't want anybody that's listening to this to ever think that I'm sitting here saying, I am the most, you know, like best business owner, best BCBA like there is so much, you know, there's so many things that I need to improve on that I'm constantly worrying about, right? Constantly it's keeping me up at night sometimes, like making sure that I wanna you know, I wanna make the best decisions for my text. ⁓ I think too one of the other things that I want to say, maybe just kind of ⁓ in general, I don't want it to sound insensitive, but I feel like we do need to acknowledge that it's some sometimes we have you know, I have technicians who really take advantage of my kindness and take advantage of me being empathetic, right? And me trying to lead from a place of that. ⁓ you know, it's a lot of cancellations. a lot of you know things that like if we were working at other companies it wouldn't be tolerable, right? I mean it wouldn't be accepted. And that's really hard. So I guess too on even on that side, like I just I do want techs to consider, you know, the the impossible position the business owners and BCKs who are also business owners are in when we have to basically tell the insurance like this client needs this amount of services. And yeah, we're only able to meet sixty percent, seventy percent because of a lot of things, right? There's so many things that are going on. Sicknesses, doctor's appointments, school stuff, you know, like and I and I understand that and we try our very best, but it is something that we're essentially prescribing. And if we're not fulfilling that prescription, right, then insurance is gonna start saying the ones who get funded, you know, they're gonna start saying to us, like, You guys aren't providing what you said you're providing, is they're not making progress. ⁓ and so yeah, where do we go from there? So I guess kind of just a little bit of a PSA to or yeah, PSA just to say like make sure that you're doing your part two as a technician and not taking advantage of of some of the B C BAs and owners who are extremely kind and passionate because it gets exhausting on our end too. speaker-3: Yeah. And I I'm glad you said that. I was not gonna say that because I was like, Okay, I'm not gonna but you're right. I it is speaker-2: It makes me hear the negative stuff to speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-3: Because you know, but it is true. It's it's we try we okay, first of all, I like the saying let's put the fun back in dysfunctional instead of we're dysfunctional, but we are dysfunctional. We all are at some point. ⁓ I think what is important to recognize is is the company always and is leadership always striving to address the holes and and and do what's right and move forward. We're never gonna be perfect. It's just never it's just it's just never gonna happen. I can't prepare for things I have n I don't know. I I don't know what I don't know, you know. But what I can do is promise that if something is not right, we're gonna work to make sure that we change it and do what's right. But yeah, it there's no perfect place. There's just none because you could have a perfect place and inevitably you're gonna have two to three percent of the people say, well, they just did this or did this. So you just do the best you can and just treat people the way you want to be treated and do what's right by your team and do what's right by your kids, right? The but to the other to Mallory's point, it's again, it goes back into this there's a responsibility in this relationship. This is a relationship, this isn't a one-sided you come do this, you get paid. This is mutual. This has to be something that we're both working together on. And when when when you're trying to do right by a person and you have people that try to take advantage of that, it gets hard. It gets really hard to not get jaded. You know, it gets really hard. And and and you're always talking about a minority here. You're not talking about the majority, because really honestly, you would say the majority of your team is amazing. But you have every once in a while, and they seem to be the ones that kind of can cast this shadow. And you have to work hard as a as an owner to not let that you know, bleed into everything else, you know. But we're human. And I mean, we're gonna mess up. We don't always have the answers, you know, but I think it's looking at the bigger picture of they may not have the answers and now they messed up, but did they own it? Did they try to make it right? Are they at the end of the day, did do I feel valued? Do I know that ⁓ I'm supported? I'm gonna be coached. I'm looked at as a professional. I'm treated with you with with dignity. I'm treated with respect. you know, there's There's a lot to that, I think. speaker-0: Absolutely. speaker-1: Yeah, I think that the vast majority of what I've read on Reddit and what you what you've read on Reddit, right, is just yeah, I just wanna be treated like a human being, right? Like I just wanna be appreciated. I wanna feel like me coming here is important. and and I'm supported, right? And I'm learning. ⁓ and then I get, right, that well, this doesn't pay the bills. And and so That's where they you're gonna have to make a decision. And I totally like I I g I can empathize I wouldn't be able to do ⁓ twenty five dollars an hour, whatever the rate is in your area. Like I I can't live on that. I d I couldn't support my family. I totally get it. So you have to make that decision. Is this gonna be where I spend my life? Or is this just a a ⁓ like a you know a ⁓ kind of a stopping area I go somewhere else? And so that that is a decision that unfortunately Like many positions, it's a stepping stone, right? And then you can you can decide where where you kinda want to move forward. ⁓ yeah. speaker-2: Which sucks that it's it is like a transient. I mean, I've you know, I've heard that a lot and I've I've even said it before. It's like it just sucks because sometimes ⁓ you know, this is turns into a transient position, positively and negatively, right? I mean, I have I love when I'm able to give ref recommendations and referrals ⁓ to past employees who have left in an ethical way, right? In a kind way and they've been responsible about giving their notice and you know speaker-1: Which sucks. speaker-2: ending ending things very positively because then I get, you know, years later and they're like, Hey, I'm finishing my degree in psychology and I'm doing this. Can I put you down as a re you know, reference? Yes, absolutely. That part, you know, is is awesome, but it's not, you know, it's not always that. It's more of a transit tran you know transient position or this I'm gonna stop here for a little bit and okay. I got burned out. I mean that's not we don't want to do that, right? Like That's the hope is that they stay that they doesn't turn into that. ⁓ it's a hard job. speaker-1: Yeah, it is totally. And I think I think though, like w you know, I and I don't know what the percentages. I think the most of these individuals that are feeling that they have nowhere else to go but Reddit are the people that are it's not, ooh, they the owners made a mistake and they owned up to it. It's ⁓ like this is just an ongoing toxic I am a number, I'm not an individual. I I'm just I come here and They don't care if I'm here or not for the most part, right? Like and and you know, again, RBTs reach out. If that's not the case, I wanna I wanna hear it. Like I I'm ⁓ the podcast is here to teach business owners what is going on. So yeah, if if that if I'm mistaken in that I would love to know about it. But I feel like that speaker-0: It's gotta be because we we ha we hear from way too many people that aren't contacting su are like receiving supervision at the right rate. Yes. ⁓ and that there's that kinda all kinda comes together, right? That's the minimal. That's the minimal is making sure that you're supervising your cases at the minimal, you know. Yes rate. But then on top of that, supporting them, being there for them, owning up. Yes. having that open lines of communication. speaker-1: Then as as you said, Mallory, like do like well well the B C B A is also in in the same position where speaker-0: It could be overworth. Exactly. ⁓ and speaker-1: ⁓ and possibly underpaid and ⁓ super stressed and speaker-0: And we are going to be addressing it specifically to our ⁓ to B C B A's, ⁓ down like soon, like future podcast and and topics. So I don't want for those B C B A's who are listening who aren't at the business owner position yet and are in that stuck spot, ⁓ you know w we're not leaving you out like we see you too. I mean like a lot of speaker-1: Customers are B C B A's, they just want to do the right thing and they're like, I can't find a company that's my home, and I'm uncomfortable in these positions, I'm gonna start my own thing, right? And I'm sure Mallory, Jennifer probab probably very similar to what you would say when you started your thing, right? So ⁓ and I I totally get that there is that there as well. Yeah. speaker-3: I will say just even too just just as a little ⁓ for the for the RBTs or the technicians who are happy with where they're at, which I am so thankful that there are, still that there's good there I know there's good places out there. I know there is. Just as a little a nugget, sometimes thinking just think your thank your BCB. I mean, I thank you goes a long way. ⁓ Thanking the BCBA, thanking the business owner, whomever, just like, hey, I really appreciate this opportunity. ⁓ I I can't tell you when when I get thank you cards from my staff or thank yous from my staff, that like replenishes my cup. Just a simple thank you. I that's all I need. I don't I don't need anything big. Just but so I would also encourage people who are happy. And if they're reading these some of these sad things that are being said and they realize, man, I really do appreciate where I'm at, tell your tell your BCBA, tell your tell your boss, tell your owner, whomever, just say, you know, I just want to say thank you. And then that's all you have to say. Just and just let it go. speaker-0: You know, when you were talking I don't know, you were saying something earlier about like ra jobs. Anyways, I I just I had this like Kumbaya moment. I'm like, it doesn't matter where you work, who you work with, who you work for. It all comes down to like humanity and kindness and like, you know, like i and and gratitude and, you know, you put it out into the world and i y it's gonna come back to you. So I you know, I c like and now I also know that like all of that woo-woo like positive talk. It it it there's a reason why why we're not all like in that spot right now is because it was really hard and and not everyone sees the world that way. but if you do and if you're striving to, then you know, like show your gr you know, show you know share your gratitude with those and your coworkers too. speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah, I mean I agree with that. Like I had a boss, I I don't remember his name at all, but he this is w like I was always comparing myself to myself and others, like, they make a little bit more than me, or you know, they they have ⁓ a a better job than me and he said, Steven, you gotta stop doing this. You cannot compare yourself to everybody all the time. You just gotta have to take a breath and be okay where you're at And I was like, Yeah, whatever, right? Like and I went y like probably twenty years, right? and at the end of it I was like, Man, I just gotta breathe. Like I can't compare myself to everybody else. And then when I started doing that, you know, I I I felt like a better person myself. So there is some of that too, right? Like y it ca you can't you are not your paycheck. And and aga but but you also need to eat and I totally get that. But those are but But right, like you like your worth is not in the paycheck. It is n it is way more than that. And while we can't obviously ABA companies cannot pay you your worth 'cause you are worth way more than what we can afford to pay, but you can't tie your worth to that paycheck all the time. You're going to drive yourself insane. Trust me. I know I did for years. So I wasn't speaker-0: And you are in an ABA ⁓ thing. speaker-1: And like ⁓ another thing I've heard very often, same ⁓ what is it, same shit, different pile. ⁓ you can surf companies and like you you have both said, there's you're gonna find if you're looking for it, you're gonna find it no matter where you go. so yeah, maybe maybe you can shift your mindset and come at it more positively. Like you said, Jennifer, show appreciation to your supervisor. That may be life changing in itself, right? Maybe Maybe they haven't shown you appreciation because you haven't shown them appreciation. So this is a two way street. So maybe we can start there. speaker-2: My one of my things, my husband is a military army recruiter. He's he's gonna retire here soon, so he's put a lot of time in. But when he came into recruiting, him and I both kind of were in this different place. ⁓ our careers were definitely shifting into different roles. And both of us really made a commitment just to like recognize that if we take care of our our team that's under us, if we take care of them, then they're going to do a better job for us. And in the recruiting world, like suicide rate is very high. Very, very high. It's you know, even more so in the in the military. And ⁓ that was one of the things. It's just like we constantly talked about like if we take care of them, they're gonna do a better job for us. And we have to remind each other of that often. Not that I, you know, s stray away from it a lot, but I think that's definitely something that I wanna continue to have as a little bit of a mantra for me. Like if I continue to take care of them, they'll do a better job for me and do a better job for their clients, right? They're able to take care of what's going on at home. So it's not this, you know, loudness in their mind as they're working, then, you know, they're gonna do a better job. They're gonna feel more positive about it, you know, at the end of the day. I I mean I have techs who have come to me and say, like, when I'm able to go in and see this client and I'm there for it's the highlight of my day. It is the high li I you know, I want those sessions to be refreshing. You know, refreshing to them. ⁓ it's not gonna be that way all the time, but that's the goal, right? speaker-0: Yeah. So everyone, your challenge today. speaker-1: Yeah, you know what I'm gonna do? I'm gonna say thank you very much, Mallory and Jennifer, for coming on this podcast and being vulnerable. Cause I I and I truly mean it. And maybe Jennifer, thank you for reminding me that I need to do it too. But I really appreciate your feedback and and your ⁓ expertise and and just the I mean, y y I I feel like you both enjoy it and you know, ⁓ we're talking about Brooke and Derek as well. But ⁓ at the same time, man, coming on here can be very scary, right? And putting it all out there for the whole internet, the h the the tens of people that will listen to this. ⁓ but but you know it's I appreciate y that you come on and do that. So thank you very much for doing that. speaker-2: I think Jennifer has said it's it's like therapy for her and it is very much like therapy for me too. I mean just like-minded people. So we've talked about that before, so thank you for giving us the opportunity. We really enjoy it. I mean at least I enjoy it. speaker-3: Yeah, thank you. I appreciate I look forward to this. Yeah, I look forward to these. I I do. And and I'm like always like, ⁓ it's going on the internet. I mean, I can't take it back. speaker-2: I haven't actually listened to a full episode. Because I'm like I haven't either. It's like movie stars that don't watch their own speaker-1: Yeah, I can't listen to myself. Yeah, it's her speaker-0: Yeah, we have to edit, to watch, to do reels and stuff, and I'm like, ⁓ god, I said that. What was that face? Yeah, totally. So just the fact that you show up and you're here and you're willing to do it. We're so thankful. speaker-1: Yeah, we did get there was an article out there where we're number three. So hey, an AB yeah, number three, an AB ⁓ podcast. speaker-3: That is well, I knew what was it last time you said that it was like speaker-1: ⁓ it was? A B A? ⁓ speaker-3: Wasn't weren't we like at number I mean, I remember you telling us last year we were like starting to grow up ⁓ you guys creep up there. So number three, that's speaker-1: And social sciences were you know, we typically get after a podcast is released in the forties, right? But this article was specific to ABA podcast and the and ⁓ so yeah, it was kinda cool to see. speaker-3: Congratulations. That's amazing. speaker-0: Thanks. Well you guys are a part of it, so thank you. ⁓ yeah. I mean I don't. Just ⁓ I just ⁓ challenge. Tell someone thank you today. We genuinely mean it. And like there's gotta be someone somewhere in your life, even if it's not in your work life, that you really truly appreciate. So take a moment to to thank them. So that's all I got. speaker-1: ⁓ Any parting words Able? speaker-0: All right guys, thank you so much and we can't wait to see you guys next time. Thanks for joining us on ABA Business Leaders. speaker-1: We provide mentorship, courses, handbooks, billing support, credentialing, HIPAA support, web design, and more. Everything you need to build an ethical and sustainable ABA practice. speaker-0: You can find all of our resources at threepiesquar.com. speaker-1: Don't forget to subscribe and share this podcast with other ABA business owners. speaker-0: We'll see you next time, and remember, you don't have to build your practice alone.