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Andrew Huberman (2020) - Brain Function, Plasticity and Performance · The Joe Rogan Recap

• 0:00
  Welcome to the Joe Rogan recap. Today we're diving deep into a
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  really fascinating conversation Joe Rogan had with Doctor Andrew
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  Huberman. He's a neuroscientist at
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  Stanford School of Medicine, and the talk was on the powerful JRE
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  YouTube channel. Our mission here is to unpack
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  the key insights, especially around how our brains and bodies
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  work together. You know how that shapes our
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  state of mind, how we learn, how we perform.
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  Yeah. And what's so compelling about
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  Doctor Huberman's work and what they got into is this core idea
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  that our nervous system, basically the brain, spinal
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  cord, all the nerves, it's the foundation for how we
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  experience, well, everything. His lab studies how the system
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  can regenerate, like restoring vision, which is amazing, but
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  also how it controls our states of mind, things like stress,
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  focus, creativity. So it's not just about external
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  events, but how internal state driven by the system actually
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  colors our whole reality. Exactly.
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  That's what the conversation really highlights.
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  The brain and body. They're not separate things.
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  They're constantly talking to each other.
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  And when you feel like you can't control your mental state, when
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  that connection feels off, that can cause real suffering.
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  That feeling of being stuck inside your own head, right?
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  I think he used an analogy, something about the brain's
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  unique role. He did, yeah.
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  He compared losing a limb to brain damage.
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  And it really hits home how central the brain is.
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  Losing a limb is obviously huge, life changing, but damage to the
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  brain that can change who you are, your memories, personality,
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  everything. OK, so if we boil it down,
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  what's the brains main job in this whole internal external
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  world? Dance.
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  Think of it as a master integrator.
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  It's prime directive really is to take all the sensations from
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  the body, merge them with your thoughts, your experiences, and
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  then use all that to help you react appropriately, adapt,
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  survive. OK, let's dig into these states
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  of mind. It sounds like it's more than
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  just being in a good mood or a bad mood.
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  Oh, absolutely. A state of mind is this dynamic
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  thing. It's the interplay between
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  what's happening out there and, crucially, how your brain is
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  filtering and interpreting it. All.
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  Your internal state is the lens, basically.
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  And Humor Lab focuses on 2 specific states as being really
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  vital for health and performance, sleep and focus.
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  That's right, sleep and clear, calm focus.
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  Think about it. Sleep is like the ultimate
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  reset. It's when your brain and body
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  repair, consolidate learning. And that clear, calm focus,
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  that's your ability to direct your attention, learn
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  effectively, solve problems. If those two aren't working
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  well, well, everything else kind of struggles.
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  Makes total sense. We've all felt that brain fog
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  from beds, sleep, or just being scattered.
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  How do they actually study these states in the lab?
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  How do you measure calm focus? It's pretty cool, actually.
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  They use a few different approaches in the human lab.
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  They often use virtual reality. They can put people in, say,
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  stressful VR scenarios. And while they're in there,
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  they're measuring physiological stuff, heart rate, breathing
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  rate, pupil size, even tracking where their eyes are looking.
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  So you get this real time window into their nervous system
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  reacting. Exactly, and sometimes in very
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  specific situations. They work with neurosurgery
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  patients. These patients might have
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  electrodes temporarily placed in their brain for medical reasons.
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  And that gives this incredibly rare chance to record directly
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  from areas like the amygdala, the brain's, you know, emotion
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  hub, especially for fear and stress.
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  Wow, that must be incredibly detailed data.
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  He also mentioned something funny about neurosurgeons in the
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  skull. Yeah, he shared this anecdote.
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  Apparently some neurosurgeons kind of joke that the skull is a
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  poorly evolved device. Their point is, if you really
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  want to protect the brain, a well made titanium plate is
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  actually much stronger, so there may be less hesitant about
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  making small openings for research if a patient is already
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  having surgery. That's a surprising perspective.
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  Did that lead into talking about things like Neuralink brain
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  interfaces? It did, yeah.
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  It was a natural jump from thinking about accessing the
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  brain to talking about neurotechnology like Neuralink.
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  Joe mentioned feeling a bit uneasy about Elon Musk's idea
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  that we might eventually communicate.
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  Just mind to mind, you know, skip language altogether.
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  Now that connected to another researcher Huberman brought up
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  Doctor Eddie Chang at UCSF. What's his work about?
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  Right, Doctor Chang. He's a top neurosurgeon who
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  studies speech. He's doing amazing work decoding
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  the exact brain signals that control our mouth, our throat,
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  everything we used to talk. So the sci-fi idea Huberman
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  floated was, if you decode the signals for English, could a
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  device maybe manipulate your vocal cords to speak, say,
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  French directly from your thoughts?
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  Sounds like something from Star Trek, right?
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  But it's based on Chang's findings.
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  He found this consistent map of inflection in the brain.
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  It seems to be the same across languages.
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  It suggests how we encode intonation.
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  The rise and fall of our voice for emotion and emphasis is
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  neurologically fundamental. That's wild.
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  And he mentioned Upspeak that way people end sentences like
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  questions. And Chang is worried about it.
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  Yeah, apparently Chang sees it it as possibly a distortion of
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  the map. Like maybe it's not just a
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  speech habit, but reflects some change in how the brain is
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  representing meaning through intonation.
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  Wow. It's fascinating how social
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  stuff in speech might actually link to brain changes.
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  Huberman compared it to accents. Social pressure, but distortion?
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  That sounds more serious. Did this lead to
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  neuroplasticity? The brain changing.
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  Exactly. It flowed right into talking
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  about Doctor Mike Mertznick's work.
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  He was actually Chang's mentor. Mertznick is famous for
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  discovering adult neuroplasticity.
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  You know, the idea that our brains aren't fixed after
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  childhood. They can keep changing, rewiring
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  throughout our lives. Which was a huge shift in
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  thinking. So what's the magic ingredient
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  for making the adult brain change?
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  Focus, Intense focus. When you really concentrate,
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  narrow your attention. Huberman called it a soda straw
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  view of the world. That's the signal.
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  It tells your brain. Pay attention.
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  This is important. Rewire for this.
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  He brought that back to a really relatable feeling, being so
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  tired you can't remember something simple like a Muy Thai
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  combo you know perfectly well. Yeah, it's a perfect example.
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  Your physical state, your mental state, exhaustion, stress,
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  anxiety. They massively impact your
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  ability to access what you already know, let alone learn
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  something new. Even if you physically can do
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  it, if your head's not right, performance suffers.
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  Which loops back perfectly to why his lab studies clear, calm,
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  focus and sleep. They're fundamental.
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  They really are. They're the foundation for the
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  brain to work optimally, for learning, for performing well in
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  anything. He then laid out this brain
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  framework, duration, path, outcome.
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  Can you break that down? What's the brain doing there?
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  It's basically how our brain seems to structure, experience
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  and plan actions for almost anything you do.
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  Consciously learning guitar, planning a project?
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  Your brain estimates how long will this take?
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  Duration. What are the steps, Path.
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  What do I expect to happen? Outcome.
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  OK. And how do sleep and stress mess
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  with that DPO framework? Well, in deep sleep, the parts
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  of the brain doing that linear step by step planning, they
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  quiet right down. Time gets fuzzy, paths dissolve.
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  That's why dreams are weird. Under stress, though, your
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  perception of time can and warp. Things might feel super slow or
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  way too fast. That DPO calculation gets skewed
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  by the body's alarm signals. He also mentioned studying deep
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  relaxation through medical hypnosis, but made a point it's
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  not stage hypnosis. What's the key difference there?
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  Right. Medical hypnosis, like the work
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  Doctor David Spiegel does at Stanford, is a real clinical
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  tool. It induces deep relaxation but
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  also highly focused attention. They use it for things like pain
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  management, trauma. It's controlled therapeutic
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  stage. Hypnosis is well, it's
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  entertainment, relies on suggestion for laughs.
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  Total different ball game. And then they talked about David
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  Goggins. He's like the ultimate outlier
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  in mental toughness. How does he fit into this
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  duration path outcome? Idea Huberman suggested Goggins
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  might have this incredible, maybe unconscious ability to
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  force himself into that DPO mode even under insane duress.
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  Whether it's sheer willpower or some intense focus state, he
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  somehow keeps sequencing actions towards an outcome when most
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  people's systems would just shut down.
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  Which brought up the difference between kid brains and adult
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  brains regarding plasticity. What's the main take away?
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  The big difference is when you're young, plasticity is more
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  passive. Your brain just soaks up
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  experiences and wires itself accordingly.
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  As an adult, you have to be much more intentional.
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  You need that focused effort to trigger the change.
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  It doesn't just happen passively anymore.
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  And what chemicals are driving, having this adult plasticity?
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  What's happening in the? Brain 2 main players Nora
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  Pinefrin That's basically adrenaline gets released when
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  there's urgency, alertness gets you ready for action and a
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  subtle choline that comes from a specific spot deep in the brain
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  and it sharpens focus, locks and attention.
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  You need both working together. Urgency plus focus equals
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  plasticity trigger. Joe asked about things like
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  supplements, acetylcholine and alpha brain, or even cryo
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  chambers. Could those speed things up?
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  Huberman basically confirmed the core mechanism.
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  Urgency and focus are the triggers.
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  Supplements might provide building blocks, maybe, but they
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  don't create the state itself. He made a cool point that in
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  kids acetylcholine is kind of released like rain everywhere,
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  making learning easier. In adults, it's more like a
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  targeted spotlight. You have to aim it.
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  So the adult brain is more selective about rewiring itself.
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  Why would that be, evolutionarily?
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  It makes sense, right? Once you've learned the basics
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  for survival reproduction, it's more efficient to keep those
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  circuits stable. Making big changes as an adult
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  takes more energy, more resources.
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  So the brain demands a strong signal, real focus, real
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  urgency, before it commits to rewiring.
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  But the focus learning part isn't the whole story for
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  Plasticity, is it? There's a second step.
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  Absolutely critical second step, deep sleep and rest after the
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  focus learning. That's when the real
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  consolidation happens. The connections between neuron
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  synapses actually strengthen or weaken during rest.
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  Research shows physical brain structures change after
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  learning, especially during deep slow wave sleep.
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  So the formula is intense focus, bit of urgency followed by
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  proper deep rest. That's the recipe.
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  And stress. Stress messes up both parts.
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  It kills focus during learning, and it disrupts the restorative
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  sleep needed afterwards. You see elite performers, they
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  get this instinctively. They topple between intense
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  effort and deep recovery. Goggins armoring your mind idea
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  sounds like getting mental reps in building those pathways even
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  without the physical act. That's a great way to put it.
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  Mental rehearsal visualization. It strengthens the neural
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  circuits involved. Then they switched to dopamine.
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  We usually think of it as pleasure, but what's its role in
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  learning and pushing limits? Dopamine is definitely linked to
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  reward, but it's broader. It's released when we feel like
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  we're on the right path, making progress towards a goal.
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  That dopamine hit reinforces the behavior.
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  It says, yes, keep doing this. It's motivation fuel.
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  And why do we hit that wall, that feeling of I have to quit
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  during hard effort, even if maybe we could physically do
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  more? Fascinating mechanism there.
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  It involves norepinephreen again and these brain cells called
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  glial cells. As effort goes up,
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  norepinephreen rises. If it hits a certain threshold,
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  glial cells basically tell the brain, OK, shut down voluntary
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  effort, that's the quitting signal.
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  But dopamine, Dopamine can push that threshold higher.
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  It gives you more gas in the tank to override that signal.
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  So what kind of things trigger that helpful dopamine release?
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  Things that help us push through.
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  Lots of things actually. Teamwork, feeling connected to
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  others, humor, playfulness, having a really strong sense of
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  purpose, all these can boost dopamine and help you keep
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  going. It's good to know we can learn
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  and focus at any age, but it sounds like these gates on
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  plasticity need the right chemical keys.
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  Precisely. The potential is always there,
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  but you have to actively create the right internal state, the
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  urgency, focus, and then the rest.
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  Quick clarification or adrenaline and norepinephrine,
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  same thing. Exactly the same chemical, just
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  different names came up from different labs discovering it
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  around the same time. Bit of a historical quirk you'll
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  hear both used. Got it.
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  OK then the talk move to comparing real world stress with
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  VR Lab stress pros and cons. Well, real world stress is real,
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  nothing matches its complexity. But VR is advantage is control.
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  You can create a strong sense of presence in VR, make people feel
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  like they're really there, and that triggers real physiological
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  responses, people's dilating time perception changing.
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  Much better than just showing stressful pictures, which was an
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  older method. But they also track people in
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  the real world using wearables. Woop bands.
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  Yeah, that gives them data outside the lab.
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  They track sleep, heart rate variability, activity and
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  people, log stress levels, major events.
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  So you see how Physiology responds to the messiness of
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  actual daily life. And a lot of interventions they
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  study involve breathing. Why is breath such a powerful
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  lever on our state? It's incredibly direct.
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  As James Nestor's book Breath detailed, how we breathe changes
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  the oxygen CO2 balance in our blood that directly signals the
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  autonomic nervous system, the system controlling fight or
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  flight versus rest and digest. Specific breathing patterns
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  activate neurons right in the brain stem that control these
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  states. You mentioned physiological size
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  as a super quick stress reducer. What is that again?
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  It's a double inhale through the nose, followed by a long slow
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  exhale through the mouth. It's like an instinct.
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  It helps pop open the little air sacs in your lungs, dump CO2
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  quickly, and signals the nervous system to calm down.
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  Very effective, very fast. What about other breath work?
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  Some actually increase norpime brain.
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  Right. Certain techniques like rapid
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  intense breathing can ramp up norepinfrin, which isn't always
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  bad. Norepinfrin also helps mobilize
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  the immune system short term. They touched on adrenal burnout.
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  Doctor Huberman sounded pretty skeptical.
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  His take is that burnout is probably the wrong way to think
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  about it. The adrenals are built for
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  stress. The issue is more likely our
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  regulation of the stress response, getting stuck in on
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  mode, not being able to return to baseline easily.
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  It's less about the hardware failing, more about the system
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  control. Like the software getting stuck,
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  He also said stress can be contagious.
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  Yeah, there's research, including from his lab, showing
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  emotional states, especially a high arousal ones like stress
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  can spread between people. Emotional contagion We pick up
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  on each other's states. That led to a really interesting
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  bit on comedy, Dopamine and reward prediction error.
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  What's that connection? The idea is humor often works by
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  violating expectations. If a joke is funnier than you
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  predicted, you get a bigger dopamine hit.
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  That surprise, the prediction error, is rewarding.
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  He even floated the idea of stand up as a kind of mass
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  hypnosis because the audience shares that collective emotional
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  journey. And the structure of jokes often
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  breaks space-time rules. Subverting our expectations
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  triggers the dopamine. Exactly that twist, that break
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  from the expected pattern, seems key to the dopamine release.
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  He briefly mentioned how substances like MDMA, which
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  boosts dopamine, might allow different kinds of information
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  processing, potentially therapeutically.
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  But warned about artificial highs from drugs like cocaine or
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  meth. Definitely those cause huge
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  unnatural dopamine spikes leading to that narrow focus the
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  dopamine pursuit system where getting more of the drug becomes
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  the only goal. He also dismissed dopamine
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  fasting as not really based on Physiology.
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  The conversation took a serious turn then, discussing societal
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  issues like homelessness in California.
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  He sounded pretty frustrated. Yeah, he expressed real concern
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  about the scale of the problem and the apparent lack of
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  effective solutions, a kind of disconnect between intentions
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  and results. And that frustration seemed to
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  carry over to how science was communicated during the
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  pandemic. He felt the communication wasn't
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  always clear or consistent, which in his view might have
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  eroded public trust. He suggested a panel of diverse
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  experts, like they use for disaster inquiries might have
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  been better. He linked that stressful period
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  in communication issues to people becoming more susceptible
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  to delusional thinking. His point was that high stress
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  can make people crave certainty, even if it means latching on to
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  less evidence based ideas or conspiracy theories.
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  And he noted a general decline in trust and traditional experts
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  alongside the rise of individual online influencers.
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  And he stressed that alongside public health measures, we
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  needed to focus on basic well-being, stress management,
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  immune support. Absolutely.
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  He emphasized those fundamentals.
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  Hydration, sleep, gratitude, social connection, nutrition,
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  exercise. Called them the tide needed to
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  lift the boat of well-being. He worried that the poor
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  baseline health in the US population made dealing with the
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  crisis even harder. He also worried about our phones
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  creating a neuroplasticity of learning to be defocused and
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  social media being a dopamine gobbler.
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  Yeah, the concern is that the constant pings, the fragmented
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  info are actually training our brains for distraction,
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  shortening attention spans. He called social media mental
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  chewing gum. Gives little hits of dopamine
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  but wastes cognitive energy, depletes dopamine on trivial
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  stuff. He used an analogy from Alan
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  Levinovitz's book Natural, comparing processed online info
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  to processed food. Right.
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  Just like bad food harms physical health, maybe this
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  constant stream of fragmented, often inflammatory online
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  content is bad for our mental health, he suggested.
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  We're in an adolescent stage with tech blurring boundaries
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  with info while becoming more physically isolated.
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  But he held out some hope for tech improving communication.
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  Maybe Elon Musk's idea of thought communication.
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  Yeah, a bit of optimism there. Maybe future tech could allow
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  for clearer, more direct sharing of intentions, cutting through
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  some of the online toxicity. And ultimately, he came back to
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  neuroplasticity as the way out, especially for kids.
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  Yes, understanding plasticity is key.
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  He made a really important point.
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  Agitation, focused urgency, maybe even struggle is often
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  needed for plasticity. It's not just about relaxed flow
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  states. It's that toggle again, high
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  attention, high urgency, then deep rest.
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  That's how the brain changes significantly.
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  He even pushed back against wanting constant relaxation,
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  suggesting that's not how humans thrive.
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  Exactly. He mentioned a mouse experiment,
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  the tube test, where competition moving forward was linked to
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  dopamine and survival. Struggle balanced with rest
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  drives growth and meaning. And the scientific thinking
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  process itself, valuing nuance patterns, is useful beyond just
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  science. He contrasted that with social
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  media's tendency to lump things together, encourage high
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  emotion, which kills nuance. He also talked about how we get
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  attached to our beliefs, our ego defends them and dopamine
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  reinforces beliefs just by thinking them repeatedly.
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  So changing minds isn't just about facts, it's about shifting
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  someone's mental state, he mentioned.
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  Group cohesion. Shared purpose, Activating these
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  systems powerfully. Right like the positive
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  neurochemistry of protest for a shared cause, contrasting it
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  with societal division he expressed hope for the future
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  but also concerned about rational people leaving areas
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  with big problems he. Described a VR experience
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  simulating different racial perspectives to build empathy.
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  The Walk of 1000 cuts idea using VR to simulate microaggressions,
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  trying to engage neurochemistry to shift perspective.
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  Also touched on dehumanization in big cities.
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  Then he got into his own labs. Work on restoring vision, CNTF
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  injections, VR stimulation. Yeah, a clinical trial using
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  CNTFA growth factor plus specific VR visual tasks to
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  hopefully help retinal ganglion cells survive and function
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  better. He invited eligible listeners to
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  look into it. And red light therapy
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  potentially helping photoreceptors.
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  Emerging research. Yeah, specific wavelengths of
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  red light might boost mitochondrial function in those
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  cells. He also stressed morning bright
• 19:38
  light for circadian rhythm and avoiding bright light at night.
• 19:41
  He called the eyes 2 pieces of the brain right out there,
• 19:45
  mentioned David Sinclair's work on reversing aging in optic
• 19:48
  nerve cells in mice, too. Comparing different approaches
• 19:50
  CNTF gene therapy like Sinclair's using Yamanaka
• 19:54
  factors all relying on that core principle.
• 19:57
  Neurons that fire together wire together.
• 19:59
  And finally, he plugged his Instagram for more neuroscience
• 20:02
  info and study recruitment. Right at Hubermanlab, good
• 20:04
  resource. He definitely left the door open
• 20:06
  for more conversations too. Wow, that really was a deep dive
• 20:09
  pulling apart that conversation with Doctor Andrew Huberman on
• 20:12
  JRE. So much there.
• 20:14
  It really covered a lot of ground, the brain, body
• 20:17
  connections, states of mind, how we learn stress, dopamine, how
• 20:22
  it all weaves together. Yeah, the big things sticking
• 20:24
  with me are definitely that need for focus and rest, for
• 20:28
  plasticity, you know, actually changing your brain and how
• 20:31
  chemicals like dopamine and norplanifrane aren't just simple
• 20:35
  on, off switches for motivation or stress.
• 20:37
  It's way more nuanced. And the potential we have using
• 20:41
  both tech and just basic biology like breathing sleep to manage
• 20:46
  our States and hopefully improve things, it really makes you
• 20:48
  think about how much control we could have.
• 20:50
  Definitely. We really encourage you to check
• 20:52
  out Doctor Huberman's work. Maybe follow him on Instagram.
• 20:55
  Think about what resonated most with you from this.
• 20:57
  What else about the brain makes you curious?
• 20:59
  Let us know. Thanks for joining us on the
• 21:01
  Deep Dive.