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Gene Folkes: The Apprentice USA Contestant Who Chose Integrity · The BEYOND Podcast

• 0:00
  Unknown: This is a really interesting episode because we have Gene Fawkes, who was actually on the
• 0:04
  American Apprentice and he had a run in with Trump. So we are going to get into
• 0:10
  that. We're talking about a military guy versus one of the most powerful men in the world who
• 0:16
  wasn't president then, but believe you me, he was already a force to be reckoned with.
• 0:20
  So tune in to find out what happened.
• 0:30
  Listen, thank you so much. For coming on Beyond the Boardroom podcast. I am delighted
• 0:36
  to have you for so many reasons. Apprentice, you've been on the U. S. version in 2010.
• 0:43
  Yes, 2010.
• 0:44
  Right. And I was on the UK version. So you had Trump,
• 0:49
  I had Lord Sugar. So that is a connection you don't get every day, both on Apprentice.
• 0:54
  And also I think we're both interested in politics on some level. So. You are the best
• 1:00
  guest to have on. Oh, thank
• 1:02
  you. You're the best host.
• 1:04
  So tell us a bit about your roots and how those influenced you.
• 1:08
  I am a product of a Jamaican father and American mother
• 1:13
  having roots in both places. I think that comes with a unique perspective.
• 1:18
  Um, globally, cause my family looks like the UN, right? My family has a
• 1:23
  history of service starting from my great grandmother to My grandmother,
• 1:29
  who was a foster parent, I think at one point she had 15 kids in her home.
• 1:32
  Really? So,
• 1:34
  yeah, yeah, my mother was the same way. And so, I went to an air show one time and fell in love
• 1:40
  with, um, the sharpness and the discipline and, The civility of young military veterans
• 1:48
  and I acclimated into the Air Force and spent 10 years serving here and in Europe and honorably
• 1:55
  discharged and then became a recruiter and picked up, um, that legacy of service.
• 2:03
  And so I began to help young men and women matriculate into the
• 2:06
  military. And then when I got out of the military and went into corporate,
• 2:09
  I ended up doing the same thing, mentoring young men and women.
• 2:12
  Do you consider yourself a confident and driven person?
• 2:17
  Um,
• 2:18
  it's a tricky question, isn't it? You don't want to sound sort of, you know, but, you know, direct.
• 2:23
  Part of the problem is that we're not direct,
• 2:25
  right? I think there's a healthy way to say I'm a confident, driven person.
• 2:30
  I would say I'm confident in the fact that. I know my strengths and my weaknesses and I
• 2:37
  know that I'm ever evolving and growing and I'm comfortable and confident. The fact that
• 2:42
  even though I may not know everything, but I know that I can figure it out.
• 2:47
  I always make this joke. Do you want to get on an airplane with a pilot?
• 2:50
  This confident or not confident that he's gonna be able to land the plane?
• 2:54
  Yeah, of course. We
• 2:54
  want to go into surgery with. a cocky surgeon with an impeccable track record, or the guy that's
• 3:01
  kind of unclear and not able to make the right decisions, then you might get the sucers left in.
• 3:06
  You said something really interesting, which is about obviously the balance between the sort of
• 3:10
  being confident, but not being a narcissist. And I think, yeah, I think in that is you don't want
• 3:17
  also that empty confidence. You kind of have to earn your confidence. Even if, let's say you
• 3:22
  haven't got all the stars and you're not sort of qualified in something fully, if you have the sort
• 3:28
  of confidence that you think, you know what, I can ask, I can find out, I can get that information.
• 3:33
  Yeah,
• 3:33
  no, it's simpatico. It's so weird that you came up with that, which,
• 3:37
  which Is not surprising. Um, I think confident people truly authentically
• 3:43
  confident people are not afraid to ask for help. And I think that's a, uh,
• 3:50
  an epidemic within leadership, right? Um, you know, leaders are meant to replace themselves.
• 3:55
  And yet we find ourselves, we have a rising young star and we want to challenge them. But that's
• 3:59
  not true leadership. True leadership is to replace myself without feeling threatened.
• 4:04
  With the military, there's a military regime. There's getting up very early.
• 4:08
  There's doing things you don't want to do.
• 4:10
  There's taking orders. There's humbling yourself.
• 4:12
  Everyone's the same. What have you taken from that?
• 4:15
  I did 10 years in the Air Force. It was honor to be discharged. I was, uh,
• 4:19
  somewhat rebellious in a way. You would think that having spent so much time in the military,
• 4:26
  That I would be pro military regime, and I am not that those skills are transferable into
• 4:32
  the civilian sector because there is a sense of honor and duty and integrity and responsibility.
• 4:38
  I'm not saying that every military person is perfect, but I'm saying that within
• 4:43
  the military, um, lifestyle, There is an expectation of brotherhood, sisterhood,
• 4:50
  that we kind of speak the same language and we know how to sort of, you know,
• 4:57
  have a little bit more self control when it comes to knowing when to question authority.
• 5:02
  And then when it comes to knowing when to follow those orders,
• 5:04
  if something goes down, I at least have a framework from which to come
• 5:09
  from to do the best that I can to protect myself and other people.
• 5:12
  Apprentice.
• 5:13
  Yes.
• 5:15
  Why oh, why did you go on it?
• 5:17
  It was 2008, Alexandria. And, uh, I think I was working on a project.
• 5:24
  Um, on a real estate project and I had some friends out in L. A. And they called me and
• 5:28
  they said, Hey, you know, there's a slot on the apprentice. And I said,
• 5:31
  sure, I'd be interested. I figured that the star of the apprentice was
• 5:34
  a real estate magnet. I had a 35Million dollar deal on the table. I needed another 5Million.
• 5:39
  It just kind of made sense to me. Um, it really was like this, but they called me,
• 5:44
  they said, send in the tape. And then tell us who you are. And I did everything wrong,
• 5:49
  right? Cause it was so last minute and I sent it to them and then they said,
• 5:53
  we're going to send you an airline ticket to fly out to LA to go through your background.
• 5:56
  So
• 5:57
  they wanted a piece to camera. Sorry for, they wanted to
• 6:01
  make sure that you can, is that, is that what happens with most of the
• 6:04
  candidates in America or no, that was an unusual thing. So normally they would go
• 6:09
  through some sort of interview process like we have in the UK, which takes.
• 6:14
  Right. That's what I'm saying.
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  Normally what happens is people apply for the program and then if you get invited,
• 6:19
  if they're interested, then what happens is they'll have you go through rounds of
• 6:23
  interviews. I didn't go through that process because by the time I got there, a lot of the
• 6:28
  other 15 candidates had, had a recall that they had met doing the interviewing round at one slot.
• 6:37
  And so mine was very unusual. They literally had just called me. I sent
• 6:41
  a tape and I didn't interview with anyone. Right. I didn't,
• 6:45
  I didn't interview with any of the other candidates. No one in interviewing anybody.
• 6:48
  I didn't meet Donald. I didn't meet anyone. So they literally flew me out to LA. I went
• 6:53
  through psychological, you know how it goes, psychological, criminal background, hoax bank.
• 6:58
  And then next, you know, I fly back. I was in Dallas, flew back to Dallas. And then I got a
• 7:02
  call and they said, pack your bags. When it's in the ticket and you're going to New York,
• 7:07
  you've been accepted on the apprentice. What do you like to eat? And I was like, Oh,
• 7:10
  okay. So within two weeks, I had this whirlwind situation and I just ended up saying, let's do it.
• 7:18
  And so I ended up flying to New York and, and, uh, going through that whole experience.
• 7:23
  Do you think Trump had a, had quite a say in that then? Did he sort of think,
• 7:27
  yeah, this guy can, can go on camera. He's,
• 7:29
  he's pretty good. Go for it. Cause he likes to just, um, sometimes use his instinct, I suppose.
• 7:35
  Yeah. From what I understand, he handpicked, um, uh, me and, uh, I don't know why.
• 7:42
  So, um, uh, and I hadn't had any encounters with him prior to that. So. Um, he has a lot of,
• 7:50
  because he owned the program, uh, I guess I think 50 percent of it. And he
• 7:54
  was an executive producer. He had say in who would come on the program and who wouldn't.
• 7:59
  Yeah. I mean, in the UK, it's literally. Yeah. Well,
• 8:03
  probably it must be this in this way, similar in the U S that you, you got fast track there.
• 8:07
  That was really quite cool. I think for you, and then for the rest of the,
• 8:12
  the rest of the herd, you kind of have to go through this application process,
• 8:16
  people from around the country, go in all the cities, you have a central location and they go
• 8:19
  to these various central locations and there's hundreds and hundreds of thousands of them.
• 8:24
  And then there's different phases, different levels, you possibly can, you can be there for
• 8:28
  the whole day. Then you come back, then you come back again and then they just whittle it down,
• 8:32
  whittle it down, whittle it down, whittle it down. And I suppose the piece to camera,
• 8:36
  um, although I think they are filming you anyway, the whole time when they're
• 8:39
  doing this, but the actual conscious piece of camera, like we've got it
• 8:42
  now, it's only towards the end that that's like sort of the final, well, one of the final steps.
• 8:48
  There's a lot of hoops. There's a lot of Most people don't
• 8:52
  realize Alexandria, and I know, and I'm so glad talking to you because you can sort of,
• 8:56
  you can sort of breathe and And, and, um, share this experience. And I don't know how
• 9:01
  difficult your post experience, your post Prince's experience has been, but it's interesting because,
• 9:07
  uh, and I know we're going to get to this at some point, but it's like, You know,
• 9:11
  people think you're, it's so weird the reaction you get from people once they see you on sort of
• 9:17
  international television or in your country, like they recognize you, but they don't.
• 9:21
  And then friendships can change and, you know, things can get somewhat challenging because,
• 9:26
  you know, there's this idea of, you know, celebrity, right. And you're just kind of like,
• 9:32
  no, I'm just a normal person that just decided to do X, Y,
• 9:36
  Z. And I think a lot of people don't realize. the how, how grueling the, the selection process is.
• 9:46
  You're talking about some of the, I mean, like on my episode, half of them were ivy league lawyers,
• 9:53
  right? And I think that people don't realize the pool from which you know,
• 9:59
  there's so many talented people, right? And you have to have almost like this magic
• 10:04
  formula. I don't know if you felt that way, but you almost have to have like this magic
• 10:08
  formula that says I'm gonna bet on you and it can, you know, it can change your life.
• 10:13
  In a way that's, that's interesting. Um, and, and it really, you know,
• 10:18
  you do have to be a confident driven person to good or bad to not let it get to you.
• 10:22
  Yeah, I think, um, I don't know if
• 10:23
  you found that.
• 10:24
  Yeah. I mean, I, I think, well, I think similarly here, anyone that actually
• 10:29
  makes it to the show has got something, you know, there might be, they all personalities
• 10:33
  that are big personalities for sure, but they've also got something business wise,
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  even if they are a little bit out there and a little bit, you know, whatever.
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  They have something, some sort of mechanism, some sort of business
• 10:44
  plan that's credible because of course the bigger brand, so the Trump brand, Lord Sugar,
• 10:50
  they wouldn't associate themselves with anyone that didn't have the right sort of something,
• 10:55
  whatever it is, to attach themselves. to even just coming on the program, they're very careful
• 11:01
  who they associate themselves with, because then you obviously become part of this brand.
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  Even now we're talking about it. There's this thing that will stick with you for the rest
• 11:11
  of your life, even if you don't want it, it's, it's, you know, it's with everyone that applies is
• 11:14
  good. And, um, but in the UK, they probably make fun of the contestants more like the production
• 11:20
  or more, um, brutal. Just like our media here is really like when they want to go, they will.
• 11:26
  So over here, they've got no problem making you look really silly and whatever. I was quite lucky,
• 11:32
  but I have been interviewing quite a few candidates and some of them, you know,
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  have struggled to find work afterwards or whatever, because they'd be made to look
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  a certain way when they anything, but they're very smart and credible people.
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  So, so what's it like in the U S do you think that they make
• 11:48
  the candidates look A little bit better. Um, or do they also sort of go for you?
• 11:55
  No, they don't. I think that my experience, uh, was, you know,
• 12:02
  challenging because like we had just discussed, they got me raw and, you know,
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  you sign these contracts and non disclosures and, you know, you're so excited to be on
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  the program and you're trying to read the fine print and do that whole thing.
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  And you don't realize that you're giving your life over to a large media organization. Who is in the
• 12:22
  business of getting ratings and they will do so by any means necessary. And so it's very, um,
• 12:29
  uh, similar. It's interesting that you said that about the UK,
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  because I would think the UK would be nicer, but we're rough.
• 12:36
  I don't know how they do it in the UK, but I know in the U S we didn't get to see our episodes.
• 12:41
  Right. We didn't get to see the process. And so I remember when, after the show started airing and,
• 12:48
  and I didn't really watch it very much because at the time I was so traumatized,
• 12:52
  um, we were asking each other questions like, I don't remember you being in that room or that's
• 12:57
  not exactly how that went down or, you know, cause they are filming, filming you all the time.
• 13:02
  And so they literally get to draw a narrative. And that narrative gets, it was brutal. I mean,
• 13:10
  the, you know, the gossip, the gossip columns and, um, the way that people would characterize
• 13:17
  you based on what you were saying or what you're doing a lot of times on, you know,
• 13:20
  cause they throw these tasks at you that you're just kind of, you know, scrambling.
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  And so they're, they're recording you even in times where you're not cognizant that they
• 13:30
  are. And then they might take that and insert that into, you know, a narrative that says you
• 13:35
  look like an idiot, right? And without any, um, without any thought about you have to go
• 13:46
  back into real life. The Apprentice is unique among all reality television shows, I believe.
• 13:52
  Because it's not a dating show. You take real business people who have worked their lives
• 13:59
  and in different vocations, there are real world consequences to how you're being portrayed that
• 14:06
  can ruin your life. And you, right, make it very difficult for you to, you know,
• 14:13
  brush that off in a way, right. To where you're able to function in the, in, in the real world.
• 14:20
  Well, the thing is, though, that when you're signing all these documents and the NDAs and
• 14:24
  all of that, that print, if you pay close attention, really what you're doing and
• 14:29
  you won't really know this. In the true form until you're actually in it. But
• 14:34
  what you're doing is handing over control of your own brand to that bigger brand.
• 14:40
  That brand has the PR behind them and all that stuff and the budget to protect, you know,
• 14:46
  in your case, it's the Trump brand with a, with a show. And in our case,
• 14:49
  it's the broad sugar brand. And then also the show, it's a BBC production. So there's obviously,
• 14:54
  there's a lot of PR that goes into it. And the loyalty And the budget is towards that you do
• 15:00
  not unless you are loaded and have your own PR people and protection, you are on your own, right?
• 15:06
  We have not signed up for anyone making us look good. And I suppose the risk
• 15:09
  isn't that apparent until you're in it and you're realizing I quickly clocked
• 15:14
  very quickly. What, that it was more TV and less business very quickly,
• 15:21
  you know, then you start to navigate and go, well, how can I take control back here?
• 15:25
  And is it worth it? And there's millions of people watching and you're aware of, of the
• 15:29
  games being played and all of that, you know, without giving too much,
• 15:32
  you, you, you become quickly, you know, so it's, um, right,
• 15:38
  right. Well, I, well, I can, I can give away quite a bit. I think you're right. In the sense that.
• 15:45
  You know, I didn't go on the program to play a game. I was just a guy who had left investment
• 15:51
  banking, who started a small firm and had a pretty sizable project. And it made sense to me at the
• 15:58
  time. What I did not anticipate was everything that you just said. The fact of the matter is,
• 16:04
  is that there's these huge brands and they're not there to protect me.
• 16:09
  They're really there for entertainment. And I didn't really expect it. them to
• 16:13
  be protective. Um, I saw it as an opportunity, uh,
• 16:19
  good or bad to be on an international stage and sort of showcase who I am and what I can
• 16:23
  do. Now, obviously things didn't work out the way I planned because of my military background.
• 16:29
  Um, uh, there's a saying that we have in Texas that says, I'm going to, I'm going to show you
• 16:34
  how the cow eats the cabbage. Right. And, um, you know, once I realized that I was playing a
• 16:41
  game because they would always try to coach me to say this and coach me to say that. And I'm like,
• 16:47
  I'm not doing that. I think I was told once that I wasn't playing ball.
• 16:53
  Okay. It became, um, a situation for me, Alexandra, to where I just didn't want to play.
• 17:02
  Right. And I was not going to play and you can make me you're trying to get viewership up. Um,
• 17:10
  And you don't really care how you do it. That goes against how I look at business. I'm not
• 17:17
  going to throw people into a pit just so I can walk over their bodies to do that.
• 17:23
  And for what reason, right? Um, that was the tone at the time. And I remember having a
• 17:29
  adversarial conversation with and, uh, NBC and basically said, uh, in my military way,
• 17:38
  You know, F the Trump brand, F the apprentice brand and F the NBC brand. There's a gene
• 17:44
  folks brand that I've actually put into perspective over these last 30 or 40 years.
• 17:50
  And when you're someone in America that looks like me,
• 17:52
  that becomes problematic because I've worked so hard to avoid those stereotypes. And I
• 18:00
  haven't done it with a chip on my shoulder or angry. I'm just know that if I focus on. Um,
• 18:07
  my competence is competency. Whatever problems you have with me or not are not mine.
• 18:13
  They're yours. Do you want to be successful and work around someone that has integrity and loyalty
• 18:19
  and can you get past yourself? Can I do that? And so NBC and I had this battle because they were
• 18:24
  portraying those very stereotypes that I've had to overcome. And it wasn't until I spoke to lawyers,
• 18:31
  cause we got really adversarial that I said, you guys are damaging my brain.
• 18:35
  How do you want to play this? I don't care about an NDA. Nobody's shooting at
• 18:39
  me. So let's go. And they were completely silent.
• 18:43
  From what I've found, it just really depends like your headspace. Where is that at? Um,
• 18:48
  obviously there's an awareness of how you're being portrayed
• 18:50
  and whether that's successful or not successful and how that's going to look,
• 18:54
  but then there's also how much you, you wanted, I suppose, like the end goal.
• 19:00
  What is it that I'm going for? What am I prepared to put on the table to get,
• 19:04
  to, to that point. Is that important? Am I prepared to put this onto the table to
• 19:08
  risk to get this thing? Or actually, do I not even want the reward? That's
• 19:11
  a very important question. And then that sort of together comes to, to determine.
• 19:17
  the outcome, I guess, and whether you want to stay on and I suppose your, your whole attitude
• 19:23
  towards that thing. So some really wanted it, you know, there was nothing else going on,
• 19:28
  let's say in their life at that point, no kids, no this, no that. And it's like, you know, I'm, I'm
• 19:33
  basically young and broken on the, on basically on the street and all in a, in a student hostel.
• 19:37
  So, Let me just go for it. This is it. I'm going to put everything there. I'm just going
• 19:41
  to block out the noise. Yes. All this stuff is going on. Yes. They doing this. Yes. My,
• 19:45
  my, my brand is at risk, but you know what? I don't even have a proper brand anyway. I'm
• 19:49
  just going to go now. Let's rush and let's go. And then that sort of energy, I think.
• 19:53
  older the contest, so, you know, there's a very different, big difference between someone who's
• 19:57
  22, someone who's 32, someone who's 42. Your, your needs, your, your risk that you're prepared
• 20:02
  to take is, is all different. Um, for me, you know, I, I had already had, you know, three little
• 20:09
  children at home. I was moving house and that I wasn't probably in the right frame for this.
• 20:14
  However, the whole interview process and being on the show,
• 20:17
  that was all interesting. I enjoyed the tasks. I did well on them and all that, but you know,
• 20:24
  you know, you kind of realize the gameplay in this and then you think, well. Not for me. It
• 20:29
  depends on where you are. I did the same thing. I walked away, right?
• 20:33
  Um, very acrimoniously. Whenever you present someone with an opportunity,
• 20:39
  if that, there are some people that are willing to do anything to make that opportunity work. Yeah, a
• 20:43
  hundred.
• 20:44
  I am not of that mind. I am not of that mindset. And listen,
• 20:49
  I'm not saying that I'm some angelic saint or whatever, because I'm not.
• 20:54
  I'm a flawed human being like everyone else. But there are just certain things that I'm not willing
• 20:59
  to do. And I'm not going to kiss anybody's ring or, um, you know, expose myself just so I can get
• 21:10
  ahead when that doesn't really matter. And, you know, you and I, I think, you know, I had, I had,
• 21:16
  um, had a lot of respect for Donald Trump in the eighties as a young business student coming up.
• 21:21
  And, you know, he's just real estate magnet. And I always tell people,
• 21:24
  be careful meeting your heroes. And, you know, he wrote this book and also
• 21:28
  stuff. And then I met him, we had a one on one sit down and this is not political,
• 21:35
  but personally I was just not impressed. I can respect, um, you know, what you've done.
• 21:42
  I mean, if my father gave me 400 million, I hope I could flip that into something big,
• 21:46
  right? Because that's, that's Trump's story. He's not a self made billionaire. Um, and I would think
• 21:50
  that once you've, you can be sharp and you can be, um, shrewd, but you don't have to be cruel.
• 21:59
  And that's what I felt. I made the right call by saying, if you want to fire me,
• 22:04
  then F and fire me because I'm not doing that.
• 22:07
  So what you
• 22:08
  said, and that is what I said. Yeah. Yeah. And I think Don jr said this,
• 22:13
  he goes, so why did you just fall on your sword? Why did you just do that? Well,
• 22:18
  you're trying to lead me down a question, a path that. Does not
• 22:22
  align with what happened. I'm not going to just say yes. So I can stay on a program.
• 22:29
  And by this point, I'm okay with walking away from it. So if you want to fire me,
• 22:35
  F and fire me, I don't care. That's exactly how that went.
• 22:42
  Yeah. So, yeah, I don't care how much money's on the table.
• 22:46
  I don't care what the opportunity looks like. And I, and I think that that's a,
• 22:49
  that's a. A reality television, um, lesson, I believe that we're facing and, um, um,
• 23:00
  real in real business. Right. This sort of lack of, you know, profits over people or whatever.
• 23:07
  I don't care if you're a billionaire. I'm not doing that. So I'm, I'm out.
• 23:12
  So what's that, what's that hard for you?
• 23:16
  Um, you know, he did one rare thing with me when I walked off. He says,
• 23:19
  you know, you didn't give me a trick, came down loose in his
• 23:21
  tie. It doesn't like to shake hands and stuff. Tall guy, taller than me.
• 23:25
  And he said, you know, you really didn't give me a choice.
• 23:29
  But to fire you, I said, I know, right? So do I regret the way that I did it? Absolutely not. I
• 23:38
  do not. I do not regret the fact that, you know, I chose me that day. And I chose not
• 23:44
  to play the game. Um, I think what's been challenging has been his responses as if
• 23:52
  you guys are watching how Trump talks about his adversaries, uh, in the U S and when
• 23:57
  you are a person that has that sort of reach and that power and those resources, you know,
• 24:02
  it takes, it only takes a little bit of money to make, you know, your quote unquote adversary.
• 24:08
  Um, and so I think what's been challenging has been,
• 24:11
  His attacks and the nature of those attacks and how he comes at it. My end, my attitude
• 24:18
  is I can run and hide or I can keep shining the light and, you know, do what I do did
• 24:26
  in the military is if there's danger, I'm gonna run, I'm gonna run towards a fire.
• 24:31
  So, no, I don't, I don't regret telling him to suck it. , he had a young lady
• 24:36
  come up in front of him in the boardroom 'cause you know it's a SAT and he had a
• 24:39
  twirl for him. We all went shopping because he wanted the women to be more provocative,
• 24:45
  right? That there's a camera on that somewhere. Somebody has that.
• 24:49
  I thought you were an eloquent person, but this happened when
• 24:54
  there's a video out there that you see, I wear glasses, right? I wear bifocals and,
• 24:58
  and there's a video out there of me saying, Hey, I need to go get my glasses. I don't have
• 25:02
  them because I can't see the fine print on what you guys are asking me to read.
• 25:06
  But the way that that was narrative was portrayed was as if I was an idiot with a,
• 25:11
  with a lifetime of public speaking, by the way, an idiot who couldn't form a
• 25:15
  sentence. And that those are all those racial tropes that come to, um, you know,
• 25:24
  that you sort of have unfortunately become familiar with, didn't want it trying to do
• 25:30
  a deal grateful for some of it at the same time, I think to be insensitive.
• 25:40
  or not. Um, to other peo were comments about, you fired me, one of the pers for him, he was like,
• 25:49
  you And then she said, you know, I work for you, Mr. Trump. She happened to look like me. So you
• 25:56
  just assume that, you know, these two people of color are a couple. What are you talking about? I
• 26:02
  can't speak about the, obviously with a racism thing.
• 26:04
  I mean, that's, you know, you've got this experience. You've,
• 26:07
  you've heard what you've heard and seen what you've seen. I think on the women thing, um,
• 26:12
  the thing about someone like him, the Trump, and I do say someone like, because my. Dad,
• 26:20
  he's like a typical Polish dad. Some of the things that he says, and he loves women and beautiful
• 26:28
  and looking lovely and, you know, but he'll say things like that.
• 26:31
  I know that in today's society, if he did speak about what he says publicly,
• 26:36
  he'll be penciled. Then, then he'll, you know, I don't like you wear a skirt. Come on,
• 26:41
  wear a nice skirt. Show it, show your legs. If you've got pretty legs, show them,
• 26:44
  put on some high heels, you know, all those things Get slaughtered and he doesn't mean harm by that.
• 26:51
  I think sometimes, you know, sometimes we take things a little bit and I also think some of the
• 26:56
  things you, that like, you know, About the glasses and that. I think a lot of that is
• 27:00
  the whole production thing that you were sucked into where they make some TV and that TV will,
• 27:06
  you are going to be the lamb that comes to slaughter because that's a golden TV moment
• 27:12
  like that is what, that is what you've signed when, when you got awful, it shouldn't happen.
• 27:20
  That's, I suppose, the interesting thing about this whole messed up situation. You know,
• 27:24
  this is what we're talking about. It's like, it's crazy. Yes, it is good TV.
• 27:28
  Yes, in a way, we want to see these people suffering and squirming,
• 27:31
  and that's why we watch the show. But then you're on it, and you're the one suffering
• 27:35
  and squirming, and then your reputation's affected, and then it's like, whoa, whoa.
• 27:39
  I'll say this about what you were saying about Trump and, And people of that ilk,
• 27:44
  you know, I always respect, I'm a candid person and I always respect people that are candid and
• 27:51
  I get his generation and I don't believe in cancel culture. Um, I think, you know,
• 27:56
  what I fought for were people's rights to disagree and be who they are and sure, the world's changed.
• 28:03
  Do I think it's gone way too far the other way? Absolutely. Right? There's, there's,
• 28:08
  you know, there's misogyny and then there's, you know, there's toxic masculinity. Look, I,
• 28:14
  in some ways, I respect, um, just becomes a shocker. The fact that, you know, I did
• 28:21
  have a lot of respect for the way that he handled his businesses and
• 28:24
  he did offer me a position within his company out of all the 15 candidates.
• 28:29
  Um, and, and I said no to that, but, uh, I also respect the fact that, you know,
• 28:35
  he's unafraid to speak his mind. That's why I said, I don't believe in sort of cancel culture,
• 28:40
  whether I agree with him or not. Right. Um, I think though, when you do it in a
• 28:46
  way that's malicious, And meant to hurt people, then that needs to be addressed.
• 28:51
  Trump knows exactly what he's saying, what he's doing. I love the fact that he speaks
• 28:57
  his mind. He doesn't like when you push back, but I think there's a difference
• 29:01
  between someone like that. He's almost like a benevolent sexist or benevolent racist. And
• 29:07
  I think he's so clueless in some sense on the potential, um, Uh, responses that he would get.
• 29:19
  And he's so full of himself and he doesn't really care. And I don't think that's healthy.
• 29:24
  You know, listening to you, it's tough because I.
• 29:28
  Obviously I'm in the UK. I watch a lot of the different media channels. I see what
• 29:34
  the BBC has to say. I'll listen to what Al Jazeera has to say. I'll watch a bit of CNN.
• 29:38
  I might even tap into a bit of Fox. I might also watch some YouTube channels
• 29:41
  and what Piers Morgan has to say. And I like to spread the net really,
• 29:45
  really wide when it comes to media. I love the different perspectives. I have a sister, um,
• 29:51
  who lives in America. She lives in Michigan state and she's married to a I mean, they love Trump.
• 29:58
  They love him. They really do. They think
• 30:01
  he is great. I can understand from my sister's perspective.
• 30:04
  You know, I've, I've struggled because I've lived in a very conservative state and like you,
• 30:09
  I like to listen to liberal. I like to listen to conservative.
• 30:12
  Most people think that New York and California are the majority of America.
• 30:16
  When in reality, it's not. States like Michigan, where my daughter lives in Michigan, it's states
• 30:22
  like Michigan and Texas and Ohio and Indiana Who may not subscribe to such a liberal mindset.
• 30:29
  You think about it. You've got someone who's an entrepreneur Yes, he's inherited his
• 30:33
  dad's business, but he's done pretty well You know, you could have blown that whole fortune
• 30:37
  and being you know, so he must have had Some brain cells there to, to continue with that.
• 30:41
  And he's become really famous and done all these things. He understands business and negotiation,
• 30:46
  which makes him good. Also what he's done with NATO and things like that. You know,
• 30:50
  there's, there's certain things, you know, where he's,
• 30:52
  Forcing other countries to pay their dues. There's nothing wrong with that.
• 30:55
  That's the sort of thing that any, you would do it as a business. And I would do it as a
• 31:00
  business. Basic things that I suppose it needed an entrepreneur, someone with a business head to go,
• 31:10
  well, that is a rubbish deal. Let's do this. So there were, It makes sense.
• 31:15
  So I, I believe you are correct in what Trump did for the economy.
• 31:20
  I also think that you're right as a business person, you do want someone ruthless, you do want
• 31:25
  someone that's going to be able to protect your interest. I think that for me, the problem comes
• 31:29
  in when you. Um, when you do it at the expense of all Americans and some of our allies. And I think,
• 31:39
  you know, it's almost, you know, my big thing is make it more about the country, not about you.
• 31:44
  Most people, most sensible people are actually in the middle.
• 31:48
  I believe in balance. Um, probably most military people do. Um,
• 31:55
  but at the same time, I believe wisdom demands that I'm not going to
• 31:57
  blindly follow anyone if I think it's not in the best interest of the country. You know,
• 32:02
  and I'm not trying to be naive or altruistic, but you know, you want to be on the right side of it.
• 32:06
  And when it comes to, you know, trunch racial comments or sexist comments,
• 32:10
  if you ask me what I heard and what I saw, I'm going to tell you
• 32:13
  what's next for gene folks.
• 32:17
  So like you, I've had a podcast, I've been running for, uh,
• 32:20
  for about four years and I'd be honored to have you a guest on that program.
• 32:25
  Just for our, for our viewers, what's the podcast?
• 32:27
  Where can I find it?
• 32:30
  It's on YouTube and it's also on Apple, Spotify, iHeartRadio, you know, all the, all the normal
• 32:37
  channels. And then also we're kicking off a clothing line. It's called Ocean. Um, there
• 32:43
  is an entrepreneur spirit in me that's always doing that. And then my, uh, consulting firm,
• 32:48
  still capital raising for people and trying to help small businesses, you know, take on Goliath.
• 32:53
  I love the name Ocean. I love that. All right,
• 32:58
  Gene, thank you so much, and I'll see you on your podcast.
• 33:04
  Okay. Definitely. You will. Thank you guys so much. Thank
• 33:07
  you.