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Waiting for Justice – Simone Patterson · Real Crime with Adam Shand

0:05
Speaker 1: Appoche production.
0:15
Speaker 2: Welcome to Real Crime with Adam shand I'm Your Host
0:17
Speaker 2: Adam Shann. From nineteen eighty nine to ninety six, Simone
0:21
Speaker 2: Patterson worked in the toughest jails in New South Wales.
0:24
Speaker 2: As a warder, she looked into the face of evil
0:27
Speaker 2: many times. The inmates under her watch included the depraved
0:31
Speaker 2: killers of Sydney, nurse Anita Cobby and many other notorious villains,
0:36
Speaker 2: but it was dealing with other correction staff that left
0:39
Speaker 2: the biggest mark on Simone. She was sexually harassed and
0:42
Speaker 2: assaulted by one male water in particular, and when she
0:46
Speaker 2: reported this to the Commission of Corrections, Ron Woodham, he
0:49
Speaker 2: warned that making a complaint might not just be a
0:51
Speaker 2: career killer, but it could also be fatal, and so
0:55
Speaker 2: Simone waited until twenty twenty one to bring her attacker
0:58
Speaker 2: to justice in a case that has finally brought her
1:01
Speaker 2: some peace. Simone left the prison system in nineteen ninety
1:05
Speaker 2: and pursued a career as a social worker, founding a
1:08
Speaker 2: sanctuary for women suffering domestic violence, their children and pets,
1:13
Speaker 2: and Simon has kind of agreed to share her journey
1:15
Speaker 2: from prison walls and beyond with me today, Simone Patterson.
1:20
Speaker 2: Welcome to Real Crime.
1:22
Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Adam, lovely to meet.
1:25
Speaker 2: You, and I also an amazing journey from the prison
1:32
Speaker 2: system in a social work. It's come at a cost.
1:37
Speaker 2: Tell me, how did you end up in the prison
1:39
Speaker 2: system as a twenty two year old? I believe back
1:42
Speaker 2: in the eighties.
1:43
Speaker 1: I joined in eighty nine and I was twenty, which
1:46
Speaker 1: is even more ridiculous. I did it for a twenty
1:50
Speaker 1: dollar bet that a friend bet me I wouldn't be
1:53
Speaker 1: able to do a month in the academy, So I thought,
1:55
Speaker 1: I'm all up for a bet. Twenty dollars is twenty dollars.
1:58
Speaker 1: So I did it, and seven years later I walked
2:03
Speaker 1: out so barely standing right.
2:08
Speaker 2: And you've carried the effects of that service for a
2:11
Speaker 2: long time. You waited until twenty twenty one to finally
2:15
Speaker 2: get justice for the sexual harassment, sexual assault you suffered.
2:21
Speaker 2: How much of that do you carry still? The impacts
2:24
Speaker 2: of working in the system.
2:27
Speaker 1: It's horrendous PTSD that never leaves, and anyone who's worked
2:33
Speaker 1: in that job knows what I'm talking about. There's things
2:37
Speaker 1: that will happen on a daily basis where you're starting
2:41
Speaker 1: cringe or or freeze that normal people wouldn't even find
2:46
Speaker 1: an issue. But it's a really it's a hard job.
2:51
Speaker 1: I take my hat off to anyone who's ever done
2:53
Speaker 1: it and worked in the system, and it's very tough.
2:58
Speaker 1: It's a mentally tough job.
3:01
Speaker 2: And I think people would be surprised to hear the
3:04
Speaker 2: biggest impact it was not from the prisoners, although I'm
3:06
Speaker 2: sure they had their own impact on you, but it
3:08
Speaker 2: was working with certain members of staff that really left
3:12
Speaker 2: you with the long term impact.
3:15
Speaker 1: Yes, the irony there, you know what you're getting with
3:18
Speaker 1: a prisoner, but an officer you expect like it's one
3:24
Speaker 1: of the hardest things to walk through the prison gate.
3:28
Speaker 1: And I thought that would be the toughest thing, But
3:31
Speaker 1: the hardest thing was to tell the truth, you know,
3:33
Speaker 1: thirty two years later. And it wasn't that. I just
3:38
Speaker 1: woke up thirty two years afterwards and went right, today's
3:41
Speaker 1: the day I'll go to the police. I tried so
3:45
Speaker 1: many times. I went to Burwood Police, I went to
3:50
Speaker 1: Raymond Terraces Police when I lived at Nelson Bay and
3:54
Speaker 1: everywhere I got stonewalled. And it wasn't until like I'd
3:59
Speaker 1: gone to Minister after Minister, and no one would do it.
4:03
Speaker 1: And the only time they would act was when I
4:06
Speaker 1: put the Crime and Conduct Commission, the Minister for Police,
4:10
Speaker 1: the Minister for Corrections all in one email, and they
4:14
Speaker 1: couldn't hide it, they couldn't make it go away. And
4:18
Speaker 1: then I got onto the Police Integrity Commission and the
4:22
Speaker 1: Internal Affairs I somehow got an email address for there,
4:28
Speaker 1: and that's when the magic happened. And then I think
4:31
Speaker 1: the Me Too movement thank you, because without all these strong,
4:36
Speaker 1: powerful women coming forward and speaking up, nothing changes at them.
4:41
Speaker 1: And that's the sad part about what goes on in
4:46
Speaker 1: the prisons today. That I hope that because we've spoken
4:52
Speaker 1: out and women have come forward, that we're making and
4:55
Speaker 1: paving a better way for women in the system today.
5:00
Speaker 2: Well, I'm changing the system because I think your story
5:03
Speaker 2: is quite inspiring for women and men. I guess who
5:07
Speaker 2: suffered this historic sexual assault harassment that you know you
5:12
Speaker 2: still can get redress. Were there times when you, I
5:16
Speaker 2: think I know the answer to this question. Were there
5:19
Speaker 2: times when you almost felt like it was too hard
5:22
Speaker 2: and you might give up?
5:24
Speaker 1: Many times, every time I would go to police and
5:28
Speaker 1: I'd get stone walled, and it was the brothers in arms,
5:31
Speaker 1: and there was so much corruption in the prisons, the police.
5:35
Speaker 1: It's right through from the top down. And that's what
5:40
Speaker 1: I found. And every time I would try and speak
5:44
Speaker 1: up and it wouldn't go any further. And just on
5:48
Speaker 1: that you spoke about men as well. There was a
5:51
Speaker 1: male officer who he sexually assaulted as well. But sadly
5:58
Speaker 1: he tried to kill himself one night and I had
6:02
Speaker 1: to get the noose out of the tree because he
6:06
Speaker 1: was really sad. And he said, I couldn't protect you,
6:09
Speaker 1: and I said, but our weight together wouldn't have been
6:12
Speaker 1: his body weight at the time. He was a monster.
6:14
Speaker 1: He was a big, strong, powerful man back then, and
6:18
Speaker 1: he was protected by Woodham and the cronies. And when
6:22
Speaker 1: you protected from the commissioner down, we had no chance.
6:27
Speaker 1: As little first class prison officers with two stripes on
6:31
Speaker 1: our shoulder, we couldn't do anything. It was so corrupt.
6:35
Speaker 2: The he you referred to was a senior prison officer,
6:39
Speaker 2: Owen big nooll.
6:41
Speaker 1: Yes, senior assistant.
6:42
Speaker 2: I know. So he's the senior guy, big guy, many
6:47
Speaker 2: ranks above you. You know you're supposed to just cop it.
6:51
Speaker 2: I guess in the culture of the day. But I'm
6:53
Speaker 2: sure this is not easy to talk about, but what
6:56
Speaker 2: happened to you at the hands of Big Nor when
6:59
Speaker 2: you were working with him.
7:01
Speaker 1: He would sexually assault and harass and intimidate and stand
7:07
Speaker 1: over you, and we were so scared we couldn't speak up.
7:13
Speaker 1: There was parts of he would touch me inappropriately and
7:20
Speaker 1: he'd grab my breast in the lift while we're taking
7:23
Speaker 1: a prisoner down from court at Burwood Cells and you
7:27
Speaker 1: just go, I'm stuck in a lift with this monster.
7:31
Speaker 1: And even the prisoners would go, you're red hot chief,
7:34
Speaker 1: like looking at him, going you can't do that to
7:37
Speaker 1: a woman, and he would go, you know, I can
7:41
Speaker 1: do what I want, like I'm the boss here and
7:43
Speaker 1: the butt stops with me. And even when we would
7:47
Speaker 1: try and speak up, and we would try and go
7:49
Speaker 1: to the boss of the cells, he would just go,
7:55
Speaker 1: you know, he's just joking, you know, get your head
7:57
Speaker 1: round it, or basically fuck off and get out of
8:00
Speaker 1: the system. And when you've got hierarchy saying that to you, so, well,
8:07
Speaker 1: where do you go? And so it was finally I
8:13
Speaker 1: snapped one day and I just thought I can't do
8:16
Speaker 1: this anymore. At the time, I had a beautiful boyfriend, John,
8:22
Speaker 1: and he was a cop and he went and told
8:26
Speaker 1: one of his bosses and his boss said, note this
8:29
Speaker 1: in your police contemporaneous notebook, and things like this have
8:34
Speaker 1: a habit of coming back years later, because she will
8:39
Speaker 1: want to do something one day and she's going to
8:41
Speaker 1: need back up. And it was him and a beautiful governor,
8:47
Speaker 1: Janine McGlenn. She did the inquiry because Woodham finally said
8:53
Speaker 1: all right, do this inquiry because it had gone too
8:56
Speaker 1: far and they'd had to move us all from the
8:58
Speaker 1: courts and they put us back in Parkley Jail was
9:01
Speaker 1: a big punishment. And then we thought, oh, well we're detected,
9:05
Speaker 1: we're safe here at a jail. And then he came
9:09
Speaker 1: in on the transit vans and we're like transporting the
9:12
Speaker 1: prisoners from court to jail or from jail to jail,
9:17
Speaker 1: and both of us saw him and we were both
9:20
Speaker 1: on different posts and we're like, you've got to be joking.
9:24
Speaker 1: How can he now come to the jail where we're at.
9:27
Speaker 1: And I went and told the deputy governor at the
9:31
Speaker 1: time at park Lee Prison and he pulled us both
9:35
Speaker 1: in and we thought, oh, we're going to get protected
9:37
Speaker 1: and looked after and he said, you can fuck your
9:41
Speaker 1: toxic shit off and don't bring it to my jail,
9:44
Speaker 1: Like I don't want this stuff in my jail. And
9:46
Speaker 1: we're like, we aren't the bad price here, Like we're
9:51
Speaker 1: the ones who was sexually assaulted and sexually harassed in
9:55
Speaker 1: the workplace. Why aren't we being protected? And he said,
9:59
Speaker 1: and don't try your workers comp crap either, because that's
10:02
Speaker 1: not going to fly here. And we were like, wow, well,
10:05
Speaker 1: this is amazing that it's followed us. And when I
10:11
Speaker 1: went to Floyd Peterson and Ross Edwards and told them
10:16
Speaker 1: it was like a scenario in a movie that it
10:19
Speaker 1: was bad cop and worst cop and one's standing around
10:22
Speaker 1: walking around behind me, and one's leaning forward, going, you
10:25
Speaker 1: know this is a career ender. You should shut your mouth,
10:30
Speaker 1: little girl, and another one's walking behind me saying, you
10:35
Speaker 1: know you've got potential, you're young, you can go places
10:39
Speaker 1: in this job. And I wanted to be a governor,
10:42
Speaker 1: that was my goal. And when you've got people like
10:47
Speaker 1: that and they're basically saying to me, you know, you
10:50
Speaker 1: don't get away with this, you don't talk up and
10:53
Speaker 1: you don't dog it on your mates, and I thought
10:57
Speaker 1: this is really horrendous, and this is stuff that we're
11:01
Speaker 1: taking people up to court for and it's happening in
11:04
Speaker 1: the lift and behind the legal visit boxes on camera.
11:11
Speaker 1: Everything was on camera in the court and he wiped
11:14
Speaker 1: all the It took all the tapes. So the tapes
11:17
Speaker 1: just all went missing and when we went to get them,
11:22
Speaker 1: they're all gone, and you go, well, you know this
11:25
Speaker 1: is corruption one O one, isn't it. We should have
11:27
Speaker 1: got the tapes first. But at twenty two you think,
11:31
Speaker 1: oh no, people will protect, people will come together, will
11:34
Speaker 1: be looked after, And it's anything but back.
11:38
Speaker 2: Then, because this was the regime of Corrective Services Commissioner
11:43
Speaker 2: Ron Woodham, who was known as rotten Ron or teflon Ron.
11:49
Speaker 2: He was sort of the jedgehoover of the jail system
11:52
Speaker 2: in New South Wales and clearly he ruled over this
11:56
Speaker 2: system with an iron fist. And you know you had
12:00
Speaker 2: no power. You were supposed to submit to this regime.
12:03
Speaker 2: It did get as high as Woodham, didn't you actually
12:05
Speaker 2: spoke to him.
12:07
Speaker 1: I was told to attend Ron Woodham's office, which I thought,
12:11
Speaker 1: oh beauty, the commissioner is going to help me. And
12:17
Speaker 1: it quite like a circus in there, and I was
12:21
Speaker 1: I just remember him banging his fist on the desk
12:25
Speaker 1: and going, you will shut your mouth, like I know,
12:28
Speaker 1: low people in high places. You know you'll end up
12:31
Speaker 1: at the bottom of Sydney Harbor and concrete boots if
12:33
Speaker 1: you don't shut up, and you're not to talk anymore.
12:37
Speaker 1: And I was sitting there. I remember I was trembling,
12:40
Speaker 1: and I just thought, I want the ground to open
12:43
Speaker 1: up and just take me. I just I don't think
12:46
Speaker 1: I'm going to get out of here. And then he
12:49
Speaker 1: came round beside me and he pulled me I had
12:52
Speaker 1: I was on a chair with wheels on it, and
12:54
Speaker 1: he pulled me to the edge of the wall and
12:57
Speaker 1: he lifted me up and had me in a stranglehold
13:00
Speaker 1: with my feet off the ground, going you shut your mouth.
13:03
Speaker 1: This goes no further, and I just thought, is he
13:08
Speaker 1: about to kill me? In Corrective Service head office and
13:14
Speaker 1: I just and the minute my feet were back on
13:16
Speaker 1: the ground, I was like, I just I want to run.
13:19
Speaker 1: I want to get out of here. And I think
13:21
Speaker 1: from memory, it was on like level sixteen or eighteen,
13:24
Speaker 1: and I thought, I can't get out of this office
13:27
Speaker 1: and get to the lift in time, and there was
13:29
Speaker 1: always a prison officer outside his office, and I thought,
13:33
Speaker 1: they'll grab me, like what's about to happen here? And
13:37
Speaker 1: it's stuff that you just think, this just doesn't happen.
13:41
Speaker 1: And I remember when I left his office and I
13:45
Speaker 1: was walking to the lift and I thought, if I
13:47
Speaker 1: can just get to the lift, there might be other people,
13:50
Speaker 1: you know, you can't get me then, And then just
13:53
Speaker 1: getting down, I remember leaning up against the wall in
13:56
Speaker 1: the lift, thinking, oh, what if he gets people down
14:00
Speaker 1: the bottom, Like what if I can't get away? And
14:03
Speaker 1: I just remember going off. Got to get out of here.
14:05
Speaker 1: I've got to get out of this building. And I
14:08
Speaker 1: remember I got over to the park and there was
14:11
Speaker 1: lots of homeless people in the park always, and I thought.
14:16
Speaker 1: I just sat down on a bench and this homeless
14:19
Speaker 1: guy came and sat next to me, and I just thought, oh,
14:22
Speaker 1: I feel so safe that I'm near this homeless guy,
14:25
Speaker 1: and you know the irony there. I'm safer in my
14:30
Speaker 1: own heart next to someone homeless, and the commissioner of
14:33
Speaker 1: Corrective Services that you just go wow, like looking back now,
14:38
Speaker 1: I just think and the homeless guy just looked at
14:41
Speaker 1: me and smiled and I just thought, Oh, it was
14:46
Speaker 1: just like reassurance. I'm okay, I'm out in the park.
14:49
Speaker 1: If anyone comes now, I can run. And back then
14:52
Speaker 1: I was really fit. I was doing a lot of training,
14:54
Speaker 1: so I thought, I'll be able to outrun these fat
14:57
Speaker 1: old prison offices. But it's that craziness in that moment
15:02
Speaker 1: that you just can't think straight.
15:06
Speaker 2: Yeah, because you stayed some years after that, because you
15:10
Speaker 2: really did enjoy your work in the prison system, didn't you.
15:14
Speaker 2: What was it like? Generally?
15:17
Speaker 1: I think there was times in the job that was
15:21
Speaker 1: so funny. And people think prisoners are these really scary,
15:27
Speaker 1: intimidating people. The truth is most of them are so funny,
15:32
Speaker 1: and they're some of the smartest people you'll ever meet
15:35
Speaker 1: in your life. And if they'd have only used their
15:38
Speaker 1: brains for good, not evil, they'd be running the country.
15:42
Speaker 1: They were such amazing people that you go, well, you know,
15:46
Speaker 1: you've got round whatever banks walls back then, and you've
15:52
Speaker 1: skimmed the ones and two cent pieces or five cents
15:55
Speaker 1: off everyone's account. But that takes a lot of brains.
15:58
Speaker 1: And then you've got murderers in there who have clearly
16:03
Speaker 1: killed someone, they've been found guilty beyond reasonable doubt and
16:07
Speaker 1: court and they're in jail, so clearly they've done some
16:10
Speaker 1: pretty bad crimes and rapes and murders and all different
16:15
Speaker 1: sorts of crimes. But most of them just want to
16:20
Speaker 1: have a joke for the day because it's the monotony
16:22
Speaker 1: of a jail. It just it's horrible for them and
16:26
Speaker 1: it's horrible for us, the officers in there. But it's
16:30
Speaker 1: a weird place to walk into, that's for sure. And
16:34
Speaker 1: I remember the first day at the academy where they say,
16:38
Speaker 1: you know, you'll be going through a jail by the
16:42
Speaker 1: end of the week, and we'll show you what it's like.
16:45
Speaker 1: And I think they do it early on to weed
16:48
Speaker 1: out and to sort of terrify us all and go, wow,
16:52
Speaker 1: this is a really scary, horrible place to be. And
16:57
Speaker 1: then they get rid of a few that don't come
17:00
Speaker 1: back the next day because they're like, that was horrendous.
17:04
Speaker 1: And just a point there that when kids go in
17:09
Speaker 1: to visit mum, dad, brothers, sisters, whatever. If it's terrifying
17:14
Speaker 1: for adults people over twenty to go in, how terrifying
17:19
Speaker 1: is it for that child going to visit whoever is
17:23
Speaker 1: in jail? Like it's a scary, scary place. And I
17:27
Speaker 1: remember trembling and you've got to hide your fear. And
17:31
Speaker 1: they told us all at the academy, you don't let
17:34
Speaker 1: a prisoner ever know you're scared. Even if you're scared
17:37
Speaker 1: and you're about to wet your pants out of terror
17:41
Speaker 1: and fear, you do not show it. You keep your calm.
17:44
Speaker 1: And even in riots you keep your calm. You don't
17:47
Speaker 1: show fear. And how do you not show fear? Like
17:51
Speaker 1: if you're scared, you're scared, that's it.
17:54
Speaker 2: And were there moments? Were there moments you were terrified?
17:58
Speaker 1: Oh? Absolutely? Like I think the scariest time for me
18:03
Speaker 1: was at Parkley. There was about to be a riot.
18:08
Speaker 1: And when you're about to have a riot, you can
18:12
Speaker 1: cut the air with a knife. It is so scary
18:16
Speaker 1: that prisoners are taking all their beloved property and books
18:21
Speaker 1: and photos to reception room for days and days they're
18:25
Speaker 1: doing it. They're taking their televisions because in a riot
18:29
Speaker 1: everything gets burnt in a jar. They basically burn their
18:33
Speaker 1: jail to the ground if they can. And I think
18:37
Speaker 1: that was scarier than when we were gearing up and
18:41
Speaker 1: the riot was imminent. We're about to go in and
18:45
Speaker 1: you've got your shields and you've got your batons, and
18:49
Speaker 1: you're taught riot training at the academy, and then they
18:51
Speaker 1: give you a quick five minutes. Okay, now, don't forget,
18:55
Speaker 1: keep your shields together, hit your baton on the front
18:58
Speaker 1: of the shield, and you're like, Wow, this is surreal.
19:02
Speaker 1: This is actually about to happen. We're about to go
19:04
Speaker 1: into a riot, and that's scary. And for days and
19:09
Speaker 1: days before, we're all geared up outside the jail ready
19:12
Speaker 1: to go in and do battle. And that for me,
19:18
Speaker 1: was one of the scariest times in my life. And
19:20
Speaker 1: a prisoner came up to me and I was on
19:23
Speaker 1: the Compounding parkway and he said, miss, you don't want
19:26
Speaker 1: to be in here at ten o'clock tomorrow. He goes,
19:30
Speaker 1: You've always been all right to us. Miss. He goes,
19:32
Speaker 1: you've got to get out of your boss. Don't be
19:36
Speaker 1: in here at ten o'clock tomorrow. And I just remember
19:41
Speaker 1: looking at him and going, Wow, it's actually going to
19:46
Speaker 1: happen tomorrow. And I got relieved from my post and
19:49
Speaker 1: I went up and I told the boss and I said,
19:53
Speaker 1: I've just been told you know tomorrow, that's it. And
19:58
Speaker 1: he said what prisoner told you, and I told him
20:00
Speaker 1: and he said, okay, he goes, that's great intel. He said,
20:05
Speaker 1: we need stuff like that, and you know, and it
20:09
Speaker 1: happened within an hour of that, so you know, they know,
20:14
Speaker 1: and it's so well orchestrated. It's so well planned because
20:17
Speaker 1: these are smart people. They're not dumb, and they know
20:21
Speaker 1: what they've got to have. They've got to have little
20:24
Speaker 1: face masks to mask the gas when we shoot gas
20:29
Speaker 1: grenades into the compound off the roof, and they know that,
20:33
Speaker 1: to have wet towels and stuff to wrap around their
20:36
Speaker 1: heads and to be able to you know, they they're clever.
20:40
Speaker 1: They run over and they pick up the gas can
20:43
Speaker 1: of stuff and they throw it back at us. So
20:45
Speaker 1: then the officers all get gassed and it's you know,
20:49
Speaker 1: it's crazy.
20:51
Speaker 2: And they have plenty of time to think about these things,
20:54
Speaker 2: planning escapes, planning various forms of protests and disobedience, so
21:00
Speaker 2: little wonder that they're quite organized when it comes down
21:02
Speaker 2: to it. But you also looked into the face of
21:06
Speaker 2: evil people like the killers of Anita, Cobby, John Travers,
21:10
Speaker 2: Michael Murphy, Gary Murphy, Leslie Murphy, Michael Murdock, they're all
21:14
Speaker 2: there in Long Bay. I think when you were there,
21:17
Speaker 2: they had.
21:18
Speaker 1: Them scattered at times around different jails, but at different
21:23
Speaker 1: times we had all of them at either Parkley or Paramatta.
21:28
Speaker 1: And the eyes of John Travis eyes you'll never see
21:35
Speaker 1: again in your life. They were just black evil pits
21:40
Speaker 1: that and he wasn't a big man. He was this
21:43
Speaker 1: little weedy guy that you just go. You know. I
21:47
Speaker 1: remember on one shift he threatened to rape me. And
21:53
Speaker 1: you know, when you've got someone who's convicted of one
21:57
Speaker 1: of Australia's worst rapes in history threatening to rape you.
22:02
Speaker 1: And I remember I was working with there's some big, tough,
22:08
Speaker 1: like one hundred and twenty kilo muscle bound footy player,
22:13
Speaker 1: and he said, oh, is that right? He's going to
22:17
Speaker 1: rape you? Is he? He said? Right on locking tonight,
22:19
Speaker 1: he said, I'll go up that end and you go
22:24
Speaker 1: up the other end to the protections and I'll do segregation.
22:28
Speaker 1: And I just went, okay, no problem. And you know,
22:32
Speaker 1: it's the crazy stuff that goes on in jails. Travis
22:38
Speaker 1: always had a container. He'd always try and keep butter
22:43
Speaker 1: containers and he'd have urine and feces in that container
22:48
Speaker 1: to throw at officers if they would store me cell
22:52
Speaker 1: or if they do things he wouldn't like. And when
22:55
Speaker 1: you've got prisoners like that, they've got nothing to lose.
22:58
Speaker 1: His life never to be released on his file, So
23:02
Speaker 1: you know, who cares if he gets another assault charge?
23:06
Speaker 1: Who cares? If he hits a prison officer? Who cares
23:09
Speaker 1: what he does? There's not much more you can do
23:12
Speaker 1: to them.
23:13
Speaker 2: True. I met Michael Murphy in the protection wing of
23:17
Speaker 2: Long Bay, I guess in the late eighties, and I
23:21
Speaker 2: was struck by how happy he was in the prison system.
23:26
Speaker 2: He had to be locked away from the other prisoners.
23:28
Speaker 2: I guess there were threats to him, but also I
23:32
Speaker 2: think he was just above a moron in terms of intelligence.
23:36
Speaker 2: And Travers had clearly been the ringleader in this. And
23:40
Speaker 2: when you think of that, what happened to poor Anita
23:45
Speaker 2: abducted from Blacktown Station, taken to a paddock, tortured and
23:48
Speaker 2: killed by these animals, And you've got to deal with
23:53
Speaker 2: them in the prison system, And did you get any
23:58
Speaker 2: insights into humanity or the lack of it? And you
24:02
Speaker 2: look at people like that absolutely.
24:06
Speaker 1: I remember the day we were about to get Travis
24:11
Speaker 1: and the boss came down and through a big archive
24:16
Speaker 1: file sort of really thick paperwork in front of me,
24:21
Speaker 1: and he said, you read this. He said, I want
24:23
Speaker 1: you to read this, and don't stop reading. And I
24:28
Speaker 1: got about fifteen pages in and I just shut it
24:33
Speaker 1: and I said, I don't want to read anymore, sir.
24:36
Speaker 1: And he said, have you got what barbaric scum? Animals
24:41
Speaker 1: like these are? The toxic sewerage of toxic sewerage, there's
24:45
Speaker 1: no worse than this. And reading her file of how
24:51
Speaker 1: hard she fought for her life and they pretty much
24:55
Speaker 1: cut her fingers off because she was trying to stop
24:58
Speaker 1: the knife blade going through her throat. The horrendous things
25:03
Speaker 1: they did to that pool woman and all of them,
25:08
Speaker 1: Like I've said that there's some really smart people in
25:11
Speaker 1: jail exactly what you've said. Sometimes there's ones that would
25:17
Speaker 1: be in the special ed class that do horrendous things
25:20
Speaker 1: like this. That these guys weren't genius, They were the
25:25
Speaker 1: scum of scum. They had such weird, horrendous upbringings of
25:32
Speaker 1: complex trauma that of course you go, well, you weren't
25:35
Speaker 1: bound for greatness in this world. And this is where
25:39
Speaker 1: I say, and so many prison officers would agree with
25:43
Speaker 1: me in saying, bring back capital punishment. Why are we
25:47
Speaker 1: wasting money keeping these guys alive? They are guilty beyond
25:51
Speaker 1: reasonable doubt. They're just terrible people. DNA proved they were there.
25:57
Speaker 1: They were caught within days because the police were tipped
26:00
Speaker 1: off by one of their friends that put them in
26:03
Speaker 1: and thank goodness, and rightfully so. So it's hard dealing
26:09
Speaker 1: with people like that. And when they threaten you, you know,
26:16
Speaker 1: you've got to have eyes in the back of your head.
26:18
Speaker 1: You can't turn your back on people like them, because
26:22
Speaker 1: you know they can sharp on a toothbrush, they can
26:25
Speaker 1: sharpen a plastic knife, and those sort of weapons are
26:30
Speaker 1: so dangerous. In a jail, they have plastic cutlery, they
26:35
Speaker 1: have plastic.
26:36
Speaker 2: Plates, and as you say, there's nothing left to punish
26:39
Speaker 2: them with. They're there for the term of their natural
26:42
Speaker 2: lives now. And of course Murphy died and Michael Murphy
26:46
Speaker 2: died in Februy twenty nineteen at age sixty six. The
26:49
Speaker 2: other four are still in prison and you sort of
26:52
Speaker 2: forget about them. But they're there until they die, and
26:56
Speaker 2: we're paying for them. And I think there's a lot
26:57
Speaker 2: of people, maybe people want to comment this. Talk about
26:59
Speaker 2: this in the comments, but there is a case for
27:03
Speaker 2: a discussion on capital punishment when it comes to these
27:06
Speaker 2: why are we keeping them alive? It's a good question.
27:09
Speaker 1: You know, they get better care in there. They're getting
27:12
Speaker 1: three meals a day. Their upbringing, they didn't get three
27:16
Speaker 1: meals a day. They got the right to try and
27:20
Speaker 1: do education courses and to study and to be better people.
27:26
Speaker 1: But those type never do. They don't do courses because
27:29
Speaker 1: they think they're above everything. But the sad thing when
27:35
Speaker 1: their families would come to visit and their mother was
27:40
Speaker 1: like the Travis's mother was like this little hobbit woman
27:45
Speaker 1: that you just go wow, like dirty, dirty handbag and
27:51
Speaker 1: dirty clothes and smelt really bad that you just think, wow,
27:56
Speaker 1: if that's what the mother's like. You know, and in
28:00
Speaker 1: jail you can't be dirty. Other prisoners will bash you
28:04
Speaker 1: on they turn a fire hose on you, and I
28:08
Speaker 1: do pretty horrendous things if you're smelly, and they call
28:10
Speaker 1: them a chat. If you're dirty and you smell, you're
28:13
Speaker 1: a dirty chat and you're going to have a shower.
28:15
Speaker 1: And it's funny how prisoners have their own codes of
28:20
Speaker 1: cleanliness and they have their own codes of what's an
28:23
Speaker 1: acceptable crime in jail, And some people would find that
28:27
Speaker 1: strange that you think, well, all prisoners are the same.
28:31
Speaker 1: Absolutely not. There's a very distinct difference for people who've
28:37
Speaker 1: done fraud and petty crimes as opposed to the people
28:42
Speaker 1: like the Murphys and Travis.
28:44
Speaker 2: Right, because for every you've got your garbage wrapped in
28:50
Speaker 2: human skin, like the Cobby killers. But you also have
28:53
Speaker 2: people I'm sure you met in jail who were there
28:57
Speaker 2: because of a moment, a mistake, a bad decision, and
29:04
Speaker 2: prison genuinely gave them the chance to reset and lead
29:09
Speaker 2: productive lives. Did you see those sorts of stories that
29:12
Speaker 2: I guess may have restored your hope in humanity?
29:16
Speaker 1: Absolutely, Some prisoners would end up studying, and they would
29:22
Speaker 1: end up turning their whole lives around, and they had
29:27
Speaker 1: a drug or an alcohol addiction, they'd done something stupid,
29:31
Speaker 1: ended up in jail, and they would get clean in jail.
29:37
Speaker 1: I say that most people would think there's no drugs
29:41
Speaker 1: in jail and alcohol in jail. There's so much drugs
29:43
Speaker 1: and alcohol in jail. You just pay a whole lot
29:46
Speaker 1: more than what you do on the street for it.
29:48
Speaker 1: So if you'd pay fifty dollars on the street for
29:53
Speaker 1: something it might be worth five hundred dollars in jail.
29:57
Speaker 1: And prisoners have wives and girlfriends on the outside that
30:03
Speaker 1: can deposit money into accounts and to settle drug or
30:08
Speaker 1: alcohol being smuggled in. And it's very hard, as silly
30:13
Speaker 1: as this sounds, to stop drugs and alcohol going into
30:17
Speaker 1: a jail, because there's still corruption. Drugs get in through
30:24
Speaker 1: prison officers, through welfare workers, through solicitors, through so many
30:30
Speaker 1: weird and wonderful ways to smuggle drugs and alcohol into jail.
30:34
Speaker 1: And there's things like they used to stand up and
30:38
Speaker 1: be able to throw a tennis ball on the main
30:42
Speaker 1: O'Connell street in Paramatta, and you know most guys can
30:46
Speaker 1: throw a long way, so they could throw a tennis
30:49
Speaker 1: ball full of heroin and they know that at twelve
30:52
Speaker 1: o'clock that tennis ball's coming over the wall. By the
30:56
Speaker 1: time the officers try and get to where the prisoners
30:59
Speaker 1: are with that tennis ball, the tennis ball's been thrown
31:02
Speaker 1: in one direction. They've passed it to three different prisoners
31:06
Speaker 1: because they're genius, they're smart, and they want those drugs
31:10
Speaker 1: because they're worth a lot of money. So sometimes you
31:13
Speaker 1: don't even need someone to bring it in, just throw
31:15
Speaker 1: a tennis ball over the wall. And same as in Pakli,
31:19
Speaker 1: they'd have people that would throw tennis balls over and
31:21
Speaker 1: walk up on the golf course at night, and so
31:24
Speaker 1: we'd have to search the compound in the morning before
31:28
Speaker 1: the prisoners get out. Is there any tennis balls or
31:31
Speaker 1: is there any foreign matter that has been thrown over?
31:35
Speaker 1: And you know there's well, there's money, and drugs aren't legal.
31:44
Speaker 1: There'll always be corruption in the prisons and the police.
31:49
Speaker 2: Absolutely. So you'd come in as a twenty year old,
31:53
Speaker 2: you leave seven years later. What impact do you think
31:57
Speaker 2: it had on you overall as a person.
32:00
Speaker 1: I think it taught me not to trust a lot
32:04
Speaker 1: of people. It taught me to be really tough. At
32:08
Speaker 1: a young age, I didn't know much about the world.
32:12
Speaker 1: When you go in at twenty, you think you know everything,
32:15
Speaker 1: but as we all did, we know nothing at twenty.
32:19
Speaker 1: I think it's not to you're about forty that you
32:23
Speaker 1: learn really about the world and about what really happens
32:28
Speaker 1: in the world. But you have it all thrown at
32:31
Speaker 1: you really quickly at age twenty when you're joining, and
32:35
Speaker 1: I think every shift can be a life threatening situation
32:40
Speaker 1: at any moment. That things just happen in a jail,
32:44
Speaker 1: and I think you become like you learn to do
32:51
Speaker 1: a PhD in Human behavior really quick at age twenty,
32:55
Speaker 1: because there's prisoners that will shove a knife in you.
33:01
Speaker 1: They will do absolutely anything to get what they want.
33:06
Speaker 1: They're very maladaptive people that will do whatever it takes
33:11
Speaker 1: to get their needs met.
33:13
Speaker 2: So what was the decision for you to get out?
33:17
Speaker 2: Tell us take us through that decision.
33:19
Speaker 1: I hated every day in that job, but what it
33:25
Speaker 1: gave me. I was training doing judo, and I was
33:28
Speaker 1: competing a lot, and it gave me time to train.
33:33
Speaker 1: And I would do a lot of night shifts in
33:36
Speaker 1: jail so that I could get to training, and training
33:40
Speaker 1: would be six or seven o'clock at night, and then
33:45
Speaker 1: you'd have to compete in tournaments on weekends. So I
33:49
Speaker 1: was always wanting to be able to train. And we
33:53
Speaker 1: traveled Australia and overseas and we did lots of international competitions.
33:59
Speaker 1: And so for me to be able to do that
34:03
Speaker 1: and have a job where I had money to train,
34:05
Speaker 1: I had money to travel, and it was a great
34:10
Speaker 1: life for me back then, and I was ridiculously fit
34:15
Speaker 1: back then. I'd go for runs of a morning before
34:18
Speaker 1: i'd go to work, and then i'd train in the
34:21
Speaker 1: gym at lunch, and then i'd train after work, or
34:24
Speaker 1: i'd swim, or i'd take my dogs for a run
34:28
Speaker 1: down the bush, and so it was good for me
34:34
Speaker 1: in that aspect. But the bad part really quickly you
34:42
Speaker 1: learn to read eyes before you learn to read words
34:45
Speaker 1: in there, and prisoners will tell you with their eyes
34:50
Speaker 1: what's about to happen, and so yeah, you become really
34:55
Speaker 1: really adapted quickly to not trust anyone, don't have your
35:00
Speaker 1: back to anyone, and you can normally pick police and
35:05
Speaker 1: officers at a table though always, even if they've been
35:08
Speaker 1: out the job for twenty years, they'll always have their
35:10
Speaker 1: back to the wall and they'll be watching who's coming
35:14
Speaker 1: in a restaurant. And it's funny. It's just basic training
35:18
Speaker 1: that never leaves you. And even as a social worker
35:22
Speaker 1: and learning counseling skills, they teach you sit near a door,
35:27
Speaker 1: sit near an exit point where you can get out
35:29
Speaker 1: quick if you need to. And it's like you didn't
35:33
Speaker 1: need to teach me that I did prison one oh one,
35:37
Speaker 1: when you know, get out so.
35:39
Speaker 2: The cumulative effect of all these experiences led you to
35:43
Speaker 2: think there was something beyond, you know, prison walls. And
35:47
Speaker 2: I note that you as you say, you did a
35:49
Speaker 2: PhD on human beings and life, and you turned that
35:54
Speaker 2: into a different direction in social work, helping women, setting
35:57
Speaker 2: up refuges. All kinds of things tell us about that
36:01
Speaker 2: year change that you made.
36:03
Speaker 1: I learned after what Woodham said to me, and would
36:10
Speaker 1: have made sure I couldn't get promotion, would have made
36:12
Speaker 1: sure I was in situations I got to the dog squad.
36:17
Speaker 1: Would have made sure I didn't stay there long. Woodham
36:20
Speaker 1: had so much power. And you know, I loved animals.
36:25
Speaker 1: For me being in a jail, I'd sit there up
36:30
Speaker 1: the towers and watch the birds and watch and we
36:34
Speaker 1: had lots of eagles at Parkley because it was back
36:38
Speaker 1: back in the day. There wasn't many houses around, so
36:41
Speaker 1: there was a lot of fields and open spaces, and
36:44
Speaker 1: I loved watching the animal life. And you know, we're
36:48
Speaker 1: supposed to be up there making sure that prisoners kept
36:53
Speaker 1: kept their behavior under control. And when you're up a tower,
36:57
Speaker 1: you have a thirty eight Smith and Wesson, and you
37:02
Speaker 1: have a point two two three caliber ruga by rifle,
37:06
Speaker 1: and when things are getting a bit funky in a jail,
37:11
Speaker 1: they'll put shotguns up there too, And so you're meant
37:16
Speaker 1: to be up there watching that everything's okay. And I'd
37:19
Speaker 1: be up there going, oh, it's pretty eagle. Oh I
37:23
Speaker 1: think I'm supposed to be watching what's going on down here.
37:27
Speaker 1: And at any point, if a prison officer is in trouble,
37:31
Speaker 1: they run under a tower and we're allowed to use
37:35
Speaker 1: maximum force and we can shoot to kill to protect
37:38
Speaker 1: that officer, and same in a riot situation. You're trained
37:44
Speaker 1: and you're taught to go for center body mass. But
37:47
Speaker 1: the problem with when you're taught to shoot, it doesn't
37:51
Speaker 1: matter where you shoot someone. If you get an archery,
37:54
Speaker 1: they don't have much many chances of survival unless someone
37:59
Speaker 1: gets to them pretty quick and does first date. But
38:04
Speaker 1: I think for me, I realized after the Wooden thing
38:08
Speaker 1: that I knew I wasn't going to make governor. I
38:12
Speaker 1: knew I wasn't going to get ever any promotion, And
38:16
Speaker 1: I started marking my time from there and I realized, okay,
38:20
Speaker 1: there's no and everyone in there. I was doing a
38:25
Speaker 1: course in corrections and doing a diploma in community corrections management,
38:31
Speaker 1: and I thought, that's a waste of time for me.
38:34
Speaker 1: I don't have long in this job. And I knew
38:38
Speaker 1: wood and would one day get me, and I thought,
38:42
Speaker 1: I've got a study. So I started studying. I did
38:46
Speaker 1: photography at TAFE, I did crazy courses that I studied,
38:53
Speaker 1: private inquiry and commercial agent. My dad was a private
38:57
Speaker 1: investigator and he was a cop. So I was brought
38:59
Speaker 1: up by a very authoritarian mother and father. And my
39:06
Speaker 1: dad I remember as a young child he'd come home
39:09
Speaker 1: and built us with his police belt with the buckle end,
39:11
Speaker 1: and back then, when you were a little kid, that
39:14
Speaker 1: buckle it seems like it's this big, but it's only
39:17
Speaker 1: very small. But you know, we got flogged as kids,
39:23
Speaker 1: and kids of today go, oh, you know, you can't
39:27
Speaker 1: smack us, you can't do this, And it's like you
39:29
Speaker 1: guys have got no idea the corporal punishment we got
39:34
Speaker 1: from our parents. And you know there's no point you know,
39:38
Speaker 1: going to your parents now, I'm going you flogged us
39:41
Speaker 1: as kids, and you shouldn't have done that. Both my
39:44
Speaker 1: parents would laugh me out of the room and go, well,
39:46
Speaker 1: do you want some more? You know. But so then
39:50
Speaker 1: I started studying community services and I thought, I'm too dumb.
39:57
Speaker 1: I can't do a university course. So I'll just I'll
40:02
Speaker 1: start off in a little thirt for I'll see if
40:05
Speaker 1: I can do that. But back then I thought I
40:07
Speaker 1: was dumb as dogshit Adam. I didn't think I could.
40:11
Speaker 1: I was always bad at school. I was, you know,
40:14
Speaker 1: twenty eight out of twenty ninth in the class for
40:17
Speaker 1: maths and English, and I wasn't an academic. And I
40:21
Speaker 1: now realized I was just bored at school. I was
40:25
Speaker 1: so bored they weren't teaching to my learning style. And
40:29
Speaker 1: so I got through a year of the I ended
40:34
Speaker 1: up doing a diploma of Community Services Welfare at Blacktown
40:38
Speaker 1: Tathe and I loved it. But then I realized there's
40:44
Speaker 1: not too many welfare workers that have been prison officers.
40:49
Speaker 1: And I was pretty tough back then, and I didn't
40:55
Speaker 1: realize I was pregnant when I started the course. And
41:00
Speaker 1: I started the course thinking, I don't know if I
41:05
Speaker 1: can be a welfare worker, but I've got to get
41:07
Speaker 1: out of the prisons, and I've got to do something
41:09
Speaker 1: because I hate every day of being at work. So
41:12
Speaker 1: I've done a year and then I had my son,
41:15
Speaker 1: and I thought I can go back. And you have
41:18
Speaker 1: unrealistic expectations when you're about to have a child, thinking, oh,
41:23
Speaker 1: it won't be hard. You can study. You can still
41:25
Speaker 1: do a few hours study a day, and you can
41:27
Speaker 1: do this and do that. You can't do anything. Kids
41:30
Speaker 1: just take up for your whole life. It's it's gone forever.
41:35
Speaker 1: So it took me about another five years to finish
41:39
Speaker 1: the last year, but by then I was out of
41:42
Speaker 1: the job. I didn't want to be in the job
41:44
Speaker 1: once I'd had kids, and I knew it would keep
41:48
Speaker 1: making me tougher, and I didn't want to keep being tougher.
41:52
Speaker 1: I'd done my day. So then we'd moved up to
41:57
Speaker 1: Nelson Bay and I was doing things like working in
42:02
Speaker 1: a community legal center, which I loved, and I thought
42:07
Speaker 1: I was done, but I realized how much I loved
42:10
Speaker 1: the law, and I wanted to go and study law,
42:13
Speaker 1: and one of my friends we were going to study
42:15
Speaker 1: law together, and when all the big Nor stuff happened,
42:19
Speaker 1: it made me and I enrolled at Sydney UNI to
42:23
Speaker 1: study law, and then it made me do it one
42:27
Speaker 1: eighty and I thought they're all corrupt. I don't want
42:29
Speaker 1: to be around that, and It's one of my biggest regrets.
42:33
Speaker 1: I should have gone and studied law. I still have
42:35
Speaker 1: a passion for legal and with what I've done and
42:39
Speaker 1: worked in, I've worked in many different roles. I worked
42:44
Speaker 1: in foster care, and I worked in drug and alcohol
42:48
Speaker 1: mental health, and then I worked in women's refuges and
42:52
Speaker 1: I worked at a refuge in Sydney where I worked
42:56
Speaker 1: under an amazing manager, Deborah Locke, and she used to
43:01
Speaker 1: be a cop and she was hardcore, but she taught
43:07
Speaker 1: me that it can be tough, and you can have
43:10
Speaker 1: a really big heart and have so much compassion. And
43:14
Speaker 1: I think when I set my refuge up many years later,
43:18
Speaker 1: I never forgot Demp's ways of managing and treating people
43:22
Speaker 1: with such kindness, but being a big stickler for the
43:27
Speaker 1: rules as well. And to run a refuge you've got
43:31
Speaker 1: to have a lot of support from the women as well.
43:34
Speaker 1: Because I didn't get government funding. I didn't get much
43:39
Speaker 1: support from the government, and I got no support from
43:42
Speaker 1: the council. But I got a lot of support from
43:47
Speaker 1: beautiful people in the community that wanted to help, believed
43:50
Speaker 1: in me, believed in the refuge. I didn't want to
43:56
Speaker 1: just open a refuge in the verbs. For me, it
43:59
Speaker 1: had to be something so different that it was a
44:03
Speaker 1: refuge where women escaping domestic violence could come with their
44:07
Speaker 1: children and their pets. And like all the government funded refuges,
44:13
Speaker 1: I didn't want boys over twelve excluded. I wanted boys
44:16
Speaker 1: over twelve to come to my refuge, and I wanted pets.
44:20
Speaker 1: So I bought acreage two and a half acres at
44:23
Speaker 1: Tullabuntarra on the Gold Coast, so it was pretty much paradise.
44:27
Speaker 1: It was ten minutes in your palm beach on the water,
44:31
Speaker 1: and you know, you drive out there and you see
44:35
Speaker 1: the cows in the paddocks and it's beautiful. And where
44:41
Speaker 1: I bought was just a magical place. So I loved
44:45
Speaker 1: having the refuge, and I had to run it with
44:52
Speaker 1: some of the skills i'd learned and some of the
44:54
Speaker 1: skills i'd taken from the jails, and how to have
45:01
Speaker 1: you know, dogs in the dog squad where you could
45:04
Speaker 1: have a beagle, a German shepherd and a Labrador next
45:07
Speaker 1: to each other, and those German shepherds would kill or
45:11
Speaker 1: really hurt the beagles. So you've got to be able
45:16
Speaker 1: to contain those dogs and be very careful. So we
45:21
Speaker 1: had yards where and there was a sterole zone even
45:24
Speaker 1: in the dog squad, where one dog could come out
45:28
Speaker 1: and it couldn't get to the other dogs. And it's
45:31
Speaker 1: just kenneling and being very smart and strategic. And so
45:36
Speaker 1: I took that to my refuge and had yards where
45:40
Speaker 1: the dogs were safe, and you could have a rock
45:43
Speaker 1: weiler next to a Chihuahua and they couldn't get to
45:46
Speaker 1: each other, they couldn't see each other, they'd know each other.
45:49
Speaker 1: So there was a lot of great skills I took
45:52
Speaker 1: from the jail and implemented at the refuge.
45:55
Speaker 2: So cut of the long story short. You've helped so
45:57
Speaker 2: many people. You're in Order of Australia, a finalist in
46:01
Speaker 2: Australia and the Australia the year. That would be enough
46:05
Speaker 2: for most people, but you decided you needed justice as well,
46:10
Speaker 2: and you waited until twenty twenty one. Coincidentally, Ron Woodham
46:15
Speaker 2: died in August twenty twenty one. As you're preparing Owen
46:19
Speaker 2: Bignall prosecuted. You went ahead, you got him charged, You
46:24
Speaker 2: got your day in court in twenty twenty four. What
46:28
Speaker 2: was that like facing your tormentor? He's now an elderly man.
46:33
Speaker 2: But what was that like? Seeing him in court being
46:36
Speaker 2: held accountable of what he did to you all those
46:38
Speaker 2: years earlier.
46:40
Speaker 1: It was terrifying for me. I was so scared. And
46:49
Speaker 1: people say to me, why would you go through with
46:51
Speaker 1: the court case of someone you were terrified from? And
46:55
Speaker 1: I said, because no one believed me in the prisons,
46:59
Speaker 1: and to not be believed is a really hard thing.
47:03
Speaker 1: And for people like me, I think I'm quite autistic
47:07
Speaker 1: that you don't believe me. I'm going to prove to
47:09
Speaker 1: you that it happened. I'm going to prove I will
47:11
Speaker 1: go beyond everything in my power to have my day
47:16
Speaker 1: in court and to have justice. He did wreck my career,
47:20
Speaker 1: Owen Bignell, Ron Woodhem, they called him Rotten Ronnie and
47:24
Speaker 1: teflon Ron. He had so many I cack inquiries and
47:28
Speaker 1: he would just slide off and you know, come out
47:32
Speaker 1: looking like an archangel, and he was anything. But when
47:36
Speaker 1: I went to the police, my statement was about Ron
47:40
Speaker 1: Woodhem and about Bignell. And then a few months later
47:45
Speaker 1: Woodham died and I just went why after all these
47:50
Speaker 1: years and then he dies and he doesn't get charged,
47:55
Speaker 1: And I wanted Woodhem and I wanted Bignell. When I
47:59
Speaker 1: went to Raymond Terraces Police when I had really small children.
48:04
Speaker 1: I think my kids were like two and three years old,
48:09
Speaker 1: and one of the cops said to me, they won't
48:13
Speaker 1: go for you, they'll go for your kids. You don't
48:16
Speaker 1: touch people like Woodham, and I just I remember, I
48:21
Speaker 1: just sat there and went but he's done lots of corrupt,
48:24
Speaker 1: bad things. And the cop went and he got his
48:27
Speaker 1: boss to come in, and the boss said, just walk away,
48:31
Speaker 1: walk away. You know you've got a great life. You're
48:34
Speaker 1: living at Nelson Bay. It's a beautiful spot. Go have
48:38
Speaker 1: a good life. And I said, they cost me my career.
48:42
Speaker 1: I said, that's not okay. And you know I had
48:47
Speaker 1: a horrible, horrendous time from nineteen ninety two to nineteen
48:52
Speaker 1: ninety six. I said, that's not okay.
48:55
Speaker 2: So you held him to account though Woodham was dead,
48:58
Speaker 2: I know they gave when he died. They had all
49:00
Speaker 2: the flags at half masked in the jails as if
49:03
Speaker 2: he were some sort of saint and he wasn't. And
49:05
Speaker 2: a lot of people will tell stories about him as well.
49:08
Speaker 2: Love people to come forward if they have some of those,
49:10
Speaker 2: please let me know. Adam shand writer at gmail dot com.
49:13
Speaker 2: But in the end Bignell was found guilty that like
49:19
Speaker 2: seeing him held to account must have been something almost
49:21
Speaker 2: like a dream.
49:23
Speaker 1: He sat there and he shook his head at the
49:29
Speaker 1: magistrate as she read out her findings, and he laughed
49:34
Speaker 1: at her. And she said to him, you can sit
49:39
Speaker 1: there shaking your head, and this is on court transcript,
49:42
Speaker 1: and you are guilty, and you did wreck this young
49:47
Speaker 1: prison officer's career and now you're a seventy five year
49:52
Speaker 1: old man. You know, she didn't say this, but he
49:57
Speaker 1: was this feeble little old man. And police when they
50:01
Speaker 1: went to charge him, they ring me out going, you know,
50:05
Speaker 1: he worried about samone and I said, oh, he's really
50:08
Speaker 1: big and he like weys one hundred and twenty kilos
50:11
Speaker 1: and he's big and he's strong, and they went, well,
50:14
Speaker 1: he's not anymore. And I thought, I couldn't fathom it.
50:19
Speaker 1: I couldn't. I couldn't imagine. Like my dad was six
50:23
Speaker 1: foot three and one hundred and twenty kilos, and even
50:26
Speaker 1: when weeks before Dad died, he was still a big,
50:31
Speaker 1: strong man that would still hit someone and really hurt them.
50:34
Speaker 1: And fair enough, men get older, they get weaker, but
50:39
Speaker 1: I just kept picturing big Nol to be like my dad,
50:43
Speaker 1: this big tough man. Even even when they're old, they're
50:48
Speaker 1: still big and strong. And it wasn't until he hobbled
50:52
Speaker 1: into court and he had like special shoes on that
50:58
Speaker 1: I don't know what his healthy shoes are, but I
51:02
Speaker 1: think they're pretty significant. And I thought, now I get
51:06
Speaker 1: what the police were talking about. He's not this big
51:10
Speaker 1: strong man anymore. He's weak, he's old, and now I
51:16
Speaker 1: don't need to be worried anymore. But then as he
51:20
Speaker 1: left the courtroom, he went for me and he went
51:24
Speaker 1: to hit me and the police prosecutors, and there was
51:29
Speaker 1: two cops in the court that went for him, and
51:33
Speaker 1: I was sitting next to a friend who was next cop,
51:36
Speaker 1: and she went for him as well, and that really
51:40
Speaker 1: scared me that I thought, here's this man that I
51:44
Speaker 1: thought I didn't need to worry about anymore. And the
51:46
Speaker 1: magistrate was still in the courtroom. She saw it all
51:49
Speaker 1: and she said, on the record, you better wait here
51:53
Speaker 1: until he's gone. And when we went outside the courtroom,
51:58
Speaker 1: I said to the police, I said, the problem is
52:03
Speaker 1: you don't need to be big, tough and be able
52:08
Speaker 1: to still protect yourself. I said, the problem is we're
52:12
Speaker 1: all taught to shoot weapons. He can get a gun
52:14
Speaker 1: and still come and shoot me. And they said, I,
52:18
Speaker 1: you won't do that. You know he's not strong enough.
52:21
Speaker 1: And I just laughed and went, are you serious? I
52:25
Speaker 1: could go anywhere and get a gun if I wanted
52:29
Speaker 1: a gun. I said, we all know there's parks and
52:33
Speaker 1: places and dodge you people you could go to in
52:35
Speaker 1: the underground to get guns. And they said, oh, we
52:38
Speaker 1: wouldn't know anyone to get a gun. And that's really.
52:45
Speaker 2: In the end, he didn't go to jail. He got
52:47
Speaker 2: a three year intensive corrections order. Yes, was that justice
52:51
Speaker 2: for you? Was that enough?
52:53
Speaker 1: I don't think anything's ever going to be enough. I
52:57
Speaker 1: was grateful it was a brilliant magistrate. I think her
53:00
Speaker 1: name was trust Scott, and I was grateful she saw
53:05
Speaker 1: it all for what it was. She believed me, she
53:10
Speaker 1: could see that. Jeanine McGlenn, I'll love that woman forever
53:15
Speaker 1: for what she did that. She was the governor who
53:21
Speaker 1: did the inquiry, and she handed all her findings in
53:25
Speaker 1: big thick folders up to Woodham and he did whatever
53:29
Speaker 1: Woodham did with things back then, shredded them through them
53:31
Speaker 1: in the bin whatever, but they never saw the light
53:34
Speaker 1: of day, and she was horrified. And it's only at
53:40
Speaker 1: the court case. I got to talk to her and
53:43
Speaker 1: after the court case, and she said, I didn't know simone,
53:48
Speaker 1: that they didn't They didn't do anything with my inquiry,
53:54
Speaker 1: and I'm so sorry. I honestly believed in my heart
53:57
Speaker 1: that they'd done the right thing. The police wouldn't find
54:02
Speaker 1: Jeanine McGlen, they wouldn't find any of the work witnesses,
54:06
Speaker 1: and I was so angry with the police. I thought,
54:10
Speaker 1: how are you still trying to cover for this guy?
54:13
Speaker 1: Like what does Woodhem and Bignall have that in this
54:17
Speaker 1: day and age, this is still being looked after. So
54:20
Speaker 1: I went to Facebook and I found Janine McGlynn on
54:23
Speaker 1: Facebook and I screenshot it and I sent it to
54:26
Speaker 1: the police and I said, well, maybe you should link
54:29
Speaker 1: your police computers to Facebook, because you know, I've just
54:32
Speaker 1: found it on Facebook in two minutes. I don't know
54:35
Speaker 1: what your police computer's doing, if you know, if you
54:38
Speaker 1: can find someone on Facebook, but the police computer can't.
54:42
Speaker 1: So it's that sort of stuff that.
54:45
Speaker 2: Yeah, other people, sorry to interrupt, but I think what
54:50
Speaker 2: I'm trying to get to is that you've suffered all
54:53
Speaker 2: this trauma on the basis of this monster who's lived
54:58
Speaker 2: in your mind all these years, and you see him convicted,
55:02
Speaker 2: you see him get sentenced. Did it help to alleviate
55:05
Speaker 2: the suffering that you've had to undergo all these years?
55:08
Speaker 1: It was horrendous suffering. It has gone into every relationship
55:17
Speaker 1: I've had, and even the relationship I have with my kids.
55:22
Speaker 1: There's stuff I wish I'd have done differently. I wish
55:26
Speaker 1: i'd a parented differently. I wish I'd been different in relationships.
55:31
Speaker 1: And it doesn't leave you. And I'm glad he got
55:35
Speaker 1: found guilty. I'm glad he got what he got. And
55:40
Speaker 1: I've just I wish he didn't have the career he had,
55:46
Speaker 1: and I wish I got a chance at the career
55:49
Speaker 1: I wanted. So am I glad he was found guilty.
55:54
Speaker 1: Absolutely do. I wish he'd have done jail thirty two
55:57
Speaker 1: years earlier. Absolutely I do. And it's only through beautiful
56:03
Speaker 1: people like John who came forward and he gave evidence,
56:07
Speaker 1: and police when they went to him, they said, oh.
56:11
Speaker 2: You know that was your ex boyfriend at the time, Yeah, yeah.
56:15
Speaker 1: Yeah, John Murray, and they said to him, you know
56:19
Speaker 1: you wouldn't have much of a memory of it from then,
56:22
Speaker 1: and he said. They said, oh, what do you do
56:24
Speaker 1: for work now? And he said, I'm a solicitor and
56:26
Speaker 1: I've got a photographic memory. I remember everything about this case.
56:30
Speaker 1: I remember how terrified Simone was, and people like him
56:34
Speaker 1: came forward and without him. Jeanine McGlynn and other prison
56:41
Speaker 1: officers backed me up and said, absolutely, I can imagine
56:46
Speaker 1: him doing it. I didn't see him do it, and
56:48
Speaker 1: then some who did see him do it wouldn't come forward.
56:50
Speaker 1: And I don't think they're bad people. I think they're
56:54
Speaker 1: people who are still scared. They're scared of one.
56:58
Speaker 2: Well, at least you turned all this to a positive
57:02
Speaker 2: with your social work. You're caring work for the people,
57:06
Speaker 2: so you didn't let this define you. And I want
57:09
Speaker 2: to thank you for your work. And I think you
57:11
Speaker 2: know you should have been a winner of Australia of
57:13
Speaker 2: the Year. You thoroughly deserve your Order of Australian Metal
57:16
Speaker 2: and I want to thank you today for sharing your
57:18
Speaker 2: story with courage and clarity. And there's also you've written
57:23
Speaker 2: a chapter for a book tell us about that.
57:25
Speaker 1: Yes, I've written a chapter for a book. Tracy May
57:29
Speaker 1: Horton has put this out and it's called When Women
57:33
Speaker 1: Speak And I've written a chapter about when women speak
57:38
Speaker 1: Out in jail because it was pretty dangerous for me
57:42
Speaker 1: to speak out, and it was a dangerous time in
57:47
Speaker 1: my life to speak out. But what I want my
57:53
Speaker 1: message to be is to let other people know when
57:58
Speaker 1: you speak out, you're speaking out for women of today.
58:02
Speaker 1: You're speaking out to change things. And if I have
58:07
Speaker 1: one message is for people, document, document, document, don't trust
58:13
Speaker 1: the government that you know. When they went to find
58:16
Speaker 1: John's police contemporaneous notebook, they're meant to keep them for
58:19
Speaker 1: thirty years, you know, the little notebooks that police officers
58:22
Speaker 1: write everything in and they get signed off at the
58:26
Speaker 1: end of shifts or once a week. Their bosses have
58:29
Speaker 1: to sign them off. And that went missing. Every statement
58:34
Speaker 1: went missing, every document went missing. It was only that
58:38
Speaker 1: I kept every statement. I kept the inquiry. I kept
58:44
Speaker 1: everything to prove that this all happened. And had I
58:49
Speaker 1: not have the police didn't have my statements anymore. Corrective
58:53
Speaker 1: Service didn't have the inquiry anymore. John's notebook had gone missing,
58:58
Speaker 1: and you think that's a lot of information to get
59:02
Speaker 1: rid of but.
59:03
Speaker 2: You know what still Slade the monster. Simone Patterson, thank
59:07
Speaker 2: you so much for sharing your story today on Real Crime.
59:10
Speaker 1: Thank you, Adam, Thank you for your time.
59:15
Speaker 2: That was Simone Patterson, what an uplifting story. Normally, justice
59:19
Speaker 2: delayed is justice denied, but not in this case. I
59:23
Speaker 2: hope this inspires others who are considering bringing historical criminal
59:26
Speaker 2: complaints to police. You can always start with crime Stoppers.
59:30
Speaker 2: The number to call is one eight hundred, triple three,
59:32
Speaker 2: triple zero. You can also contact me at Adam Shanned
59:36
Speaker 2: writer at gmail dot com, or you can follow me
59:39
Speaker 2: on Facebook. The link is in the show notes. This
59:42
Speaker 2: has been Adam Shanned for Real Crime. Thanks for listening.
59:51
Speaker 2: Thanks for listening to this episode and supporting this story.
59:54
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