Latest / It's Just Not That Black and White / Microbes & Mortality: Facing the Unseen Threat | Episode 2

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Microbes & Mortality: Facing the Unseen Threat | Episode 2 · It's Just Not That Black and White

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: As a doctor, you deal with death.
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_00: Are you comfortable with dying?
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_00: I'll have to tell you, as a physician, I don't deal with death very well.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_00: During COVID, I did like 70 funerals.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_00: I tell people, it's okay to be angry with God.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_00: I lost both my parents, and I actually physically saw my mom like literally like die in front of me within 30 seconds.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_00: Like she's talking to me and then she just gone.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_01: All of us have an expiration day.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_01: And so we live life to the fullest.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_01: And welcome back to it's just not that black and white.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_01: A big thank you to all of our subscribers and those who are tuning in for the first time.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_01: Your support, your comments helps to grow our community and it keeps the conversation going.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_01: So, Rev, what's new?
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_01: Got back from Ohio.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_01: Shout out to Dayton, Ohio.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_01: That's my hometown.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_01: Nice.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_01: What'd you do there?
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I had an aunt.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_01: My aunt celebrated her 80th birthday.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_01: Ooh, Lady's young.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it is bittersweet though.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_01: Why?
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_01: She has early stages of uh dementia.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_01: So um, you know, if she remembered, then she didn't remember.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_01: But it's good.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's good.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_01: So it's your mom's sister?
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_01: My mom's sister.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_01: How many sisters does your mom have?
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um just one left, two siblings left.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_00: She came from nine, and nine, two left.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_00: Two left.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_00: So did old age take them or did something else take them?
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_01: A variety of things.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_01: Old age for some, lifestyle for others, but they lived.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_00: It was good.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_00: It's always good to go home.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_00: You went from nine, your mom had nine siblings, and you had zero.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_00: I am an only child, just like yourself.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I know.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_01: That's pretty uh extreme, right?
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_01: It really is.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um, they grew up house full of kids and or siblings, and I grew up with my baseball cards.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_01: So, yeah, yeah.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_01: What about you?
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_01: So you had baseball cards?
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_01: They had baseball cards.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_01: No, I mean, that's what you were into baseball cards.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_01: Huge baseball fan.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_01: Shout out to the Dodgers, by the way.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_01: Can I say that?
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_01: Not the Cleveland Indians, not the Indians or the Reds.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_01: The Reds were my childhood.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um funny story about the Reds.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, in my neighborhood, most of the neighbors now have passed, but they knew me as Pete.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_01: That's my nickname, to immediate family members and friends.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_01: Why?
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_01: Because I loved Pete Rose growing up.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_01: Was that before he was a gambler or after?
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I believe it was before.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_01: But I seem to always like those athletes with a little bit of uh a little bit of edge.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, they that's definitely edge.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_01: So um but yeah, they had a racist owner years ago, and I quit following them, and I've been a Dodgers fan ever since.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_01: You don't like baseball, you you're into football, right?
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's so boring, man.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_01: Nine innings, and that can go forever.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_01: Three hours now.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_01: How is it?
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_01: Well, they got a pitch clock.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_01: It games are usually three hours now.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_00: Really?
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_00: They've they've I went to a Yankee game and I was just like sitting there, and I was like, oh my god, you're gonna get like hemorrhoid sitting in the street.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my gosh.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_00: It's extreme.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_00: So it was like four or five hours of sitting there.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_01: You'd sit three hours for the Steelers game.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_00: Uh yeah.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_01: In the cold.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_00: Why was this?
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_00: No, I've never seen the Steelers game because I can't jinx them, you know.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my gosh, here we go.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like the president of Argentina, couldn't show up for the cup, had to stay in his, you know.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, you know, yeah, it was time that Messi finally go down.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_00: Ah, dropped the hammer.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_01: I got into it.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_00: I really did.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_00: No, I did too.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think I was surprised.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_00: Like, we don't have a sport that has that kind of excitement.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, no, you know, the amount of money those guys made.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_01: I just I was just amazed at the ticket prices and uh the willingness that the fans paid to witness it.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, that that was just I didn't expect that halftime show too with Madonna and honestly.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_01: I changed the channel.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_01: You so you didn't know about it or you know, I knew about it.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_01: I just didn't I just did not want to see uh Madonna at a halftime soccer game.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_01: But you miss Shakira.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_01: Uh Shakira's in a Super Bowl recently, or something.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_00: No, but Shakira was in the halftime show.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_00: I know, but I yeah, yeah.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_00: Madonna, Madonna cracks me up, man.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_00: She's like she's hanging on, yeah.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_00: She looks like she's got like brittle bone syndrome.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, she is that a real thing?
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_00: She's making a real thing.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I'm just like, please, man, just hang it up.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_00: Hang up the clips.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_00: Tom Brady retired.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_00: You gotta retire.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_00: He's gone for it.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_00: LeBron's not retiring.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_00: I know 76ers?
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_00: What is he?
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_00: Wait, but isn't his son playing too, right?
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_00: For the Lakers, yeah.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_00: So he left his son to go to the 76ers.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, his son's a grown man.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_00: I know, but it was like so cool.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_00: Father and son on the court.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_00: Come on.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm I've become that old man.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_01: I understand why he went to the 76ers.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, he wants a ring.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_01: That's what it's all about now.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_01: There's no loyalty, there's no listen.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_01: I'm old school.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_01: So why don't you go to the next?
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_00: Or San Antonio.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_00: He wants a ring.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_00: So you think he'll get it at the 76ers?
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I hope not.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_01: But it's it's probable now.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_01: He's got the pieces, but he never won with the Lakers.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_01: Of course he won one during COVID with the Lakers.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_01: It was the Asteroid Championship.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_01: Now, um, we had to cancel our last recording because yeah, man.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_00: I got uh bug.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_00: I was riding the uh porcelain Honda, but as we said, the porcelain Porsche because couldn't come out of me fast enough.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_00: The uh yeah, I won't say it, but I did not eat, and I won't mention any you know places, but I did not eat at and it rhymes with Paco Hell.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, because we can't adore, so I did not eat at Paco Hell.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_00: So please, Paco Hell, you were not the cause of my I've never I'm 58 years old, I've had viruses before, Rev.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_00: This was three weeks, three, three weeks of like the first, and I've started on my vacation.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, you know, this is why I don't go on vacation.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_00: I was literally first day on vacation, sitting on a nice garden chair, 11 a.m.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, wait a second, something isn't right.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_00: And I like booked to the room.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_00: I could not, I swear to god, I'm not even exaggerating.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_00: I could not get off the bathroom seat the entire day.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_00: I've never had anything like this, and then I was like, What is this?
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, and then you know, the news started coming out about this cycle.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_01: So was it was it lettuce related?
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah, greens were fun.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_00: So you yeah, I eat lettuce.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_00: I love raspberries, man.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I eat so many raspberries, and you know, so I'm gonna I'm buying this thing now to like I I saw I watched.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_00: They got you.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, what is it?
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_00: It it's to get rid of the pesticides and all the shit that's on our fruit.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_00: And you put it in a bowl, you put is it the thing?
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_00: Did you I saw it?
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's about this tall.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_00: It looks like a a beat speaker, beats by George Speaker.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes, yes, you saw it.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, did you get it?
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_00: I I did order it.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_01: I hope I'm not oh my gosh, I'll let you try it out first.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you know, it looks pretty good.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_00: I it worked though, you know, like pesticides and all this stuff, and like and you see the brown water floating, yeah, yeah.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_00: But this was the worst.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_00: This was absolutely the worst.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_01: So wait, what happens when a doctor catches a virus like that?
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_01: Are you like, I've always wondered, like, how do doctors respond when when like do you have some special medicine tucked away that the average no?
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_00: I like I I I my wife yells at me all the time.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_00: She's like, You're a physician, and we travel with nothing, like not even band-aids, you know?
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_00: And like I should, you know, be better about this and have a little travel pack.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm probably gonna make a business of having a travel pack, but I don't travel that much because now I'm afraid of flying.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_00: But um another topic for another day, but uh so I I'm I'm like sitting here, I like started popping Pepto Bismo because they had it at the gift shop, you know, and uh that wasn't working, no.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_00: So then I was like, all right, I have to call in a medicine to myself.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_00: So I called at a local pharmacy.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_00: I was on Nantucket.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_00: So called a local pharmacy, the worst customer service.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_00: I went to three pharmacies before some human would answer the phone.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, oh my god, even on a little tiny island, they you know, pharmacists are the worst to call.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_00: Because here I hate calling pharmacies in New Jersey, it's just like they put you on hold forever.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_00: Well, they're probably overworked.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, come on, you're speaking to the choir here, overworked.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I don't know.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I know my office is the worst to call, so I'm I I apologize to everyone who calls my office.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_00: But um, so uh I I finally call in a med, like this really good med that kills everything in your gut.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and I don't know if I can mention him, but it's just it's a med.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_00: So my wife goes to the pharmacy, stands in line, like nine people in front of her, and she finally goes up to the window, and you know, and the the uh attendant goes, um, it that'll be seven thousand dollars.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_00: Seven thousand dollars for this pill that I ordered like 40 of, you know, um, because you have to take it four times a day.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_00: And I was just like, you gotta be kidding me.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_00: This is not like a chemo pill, this is like a pill to treat traveler's diarrhea, basically, right?
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_00: And they said$7,000 with insurance.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_00: $7,000.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_00: I was about to say, what kind of insurance do you?
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it I won't mention that either because you know they all suck, but$7,000 for a pill.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_00: So I was like, I'm not paying$7,000.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_00: I'd rather I have the shits.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_00: So I changed it to a different pill that I ended up taking.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_00: And did it help?
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_00: Well, no, because I didn't have Traveler's diarrhea and I didn't know about you know lettuce from Paco Hell, and even though I didn't need that Paco Hell.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_00: So um, only as I started like Googling and reading and stuff, I started hearing about this, you know, infection uh coming from dirty water and potential fertilizer on lettuce and you know, basil and cilantro, and of course I eat all of that stuff and blueberries and raspberries.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_00: So um it's this, you know, very rare, and it's not even an it's a parasite, right?
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_00: You know, cyclospor cyclo.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_00: What's it called?
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_00: Cyclosporo, yeah.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_00: Cyclo because you get a cyclone going through your gut, man.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_00: That's for sure.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_00: And so you have to take Bactrum, old old-fashioned medicine, Bactrum twice a day, which Bactrum.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_00: What is that?
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_00: It's um uh it's it's kind of in the family if you want of sulfa, you know.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, and it's a big old chalky horse pill that is impossible to swallow, but you know, you keep trying to swallow and it's twice a day, and it works honestly.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_00: Third dose into it, it things started to get better.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_00: But I I I was dealing with this for you know a while.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_01: And so, so wait, what about Nantucket?
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_01: How'd you get back?
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_01: Like, how like did you fly or you you drove?
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_01: No, I drove.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_01: You drove?
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, how was the ride back?
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_00: I took the toilet bowl phone and I took the seat out, and I put the toilet bowl in the passenger seat, and my wife drove with the windows.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_00: Wait, are you serious?
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_00: Dude, I could write a zaggate about every toilet on 95.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_00: 95 cover good.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_01: I could definitely write a pull over, like you have to make stuff.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_00: Where did you want me to do shit in a diaper?
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, come on, insane.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_00: It was not good, dude.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_00: It was not good.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_00: This might, this might go viral.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_01: I just need you to know.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'm telling you, and and obviously, because you know, we doge the government, I don't think we have enough CDC and and public health out there to really truly understand, you know, how bad it is.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I was talking to one of my colleagues that's um a GI doctor in you know my same neighborhood.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_00: And most of my offices are obviously, you know, in urban areas, and I'm not seeing it in the urban areas.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_00: And that's the weird thing.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_00: I have not seen you know, patients coming in right now with you know what I had, you know.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_00: I'm I have friends that have had it, I've had colleagues that have had it.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so you know, I don't know, you know, if it's because you know I don't know, dietary habits.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_00: We you know, we we cook in our greens.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_00: You're right.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_00: That's the way to do it, is is cooking.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I like that nice crisp crunch when you bite into it.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_00: And right, so you I paid for it basically.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, so yeah, so that that was you know, my last couple of weeks.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_00: So let me so let me ask you.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_00: So you don't need right now a Zempic, just go eat at Paco Hell, and you will definitely lose a lot of weight.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_00: The new workout plate.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of weight, that is the best way, you know.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_00: In the old days, like I don't know if this is true, but like in the 50s and 40s, Rita Hayworth and all these beautiful, they used to actually swallow tapeworms to lose weight.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's what my dad told me.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_01: So, so okay, so uh in all seriousness, if if uh if I'm trying to eat healthy and I'm watching uh these reports of lettuce, spinach, all of that, um how should I proceed?
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_01: Like fruits, what do what do you think?
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, the best way is you're gonna have to stew them.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you know, they say like, oh, just peel off the outside layers and the inside layers are gonna be cut, yeah.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know about that.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_00: You know, mix it with a little vinegar and water and baking soda.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_00: I again I've got to be.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_00: I've heard about that.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I've heard about clean.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, but you know, just heat kills, right?
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_00: So if you put it in good heat, stew it, and you know, but like, I don't know, like who wants to eat that?
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_00: So I mean, basically, just go opposite now.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_00: Forget fruits, forget vegetables, just eat meat.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, you know, go to carnivore work, you know.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so I don't know.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_00: If you're a vegetarian, you're screwed right now, you're just tofu on the way out.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_01: But you're healthy now, you it's it's out of your system, you're good.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_00: I hope so, yeah.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_00: You know, okay.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_01: So I uh but yeah, that was something, man.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I've I've I'm I'm still eating um arugula spinach, but I say grace for more than one reason, yeah.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for the food, and hopefully you don't get any uh Montezuma revenge.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my gosh.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_01: So Doc, I want to circle back.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_01: What what's the deal with like uh fear of flying now?
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_01: What what's going on?
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_00: Number one, you know, um after COVID, a lot of folks, quality, you know, experienced pilots retired, right?
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_00: So now you got these new kids, you know, that are just coming right out.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, a little a little afraid of putting my life in front of people that might have had less than five years of experience.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_00: So that's one.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, number two, um, again, you know, I had a stent, so uh, and as a as a physician, I I sit there in that chair, and then I start thinking about blood clots in my legs, and I start thinking about, you know, the uh the pressurized cabin and this little tiny little mesh wire keeping my heart going.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_00: And then, you know, I'm thinking like, well, what if there's really an emergency at 30,000 feet in the air?
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_00: Like that little tiny kit and that, you know, defibrillator is not gonna really do much, you know.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_00: And then, you know, and then you think like, you know, when I when I see these movies of planes that crash into the water, I I think uh have you ever like you ever had a near drowning experience?
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_00: No, I have.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_00: Literally.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so I would think probably one of the I mean, like, what's the worst way of going?
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_00: I think drowning is a terrible way to go.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_00: Suffocation, drowning is just a terrible way to go.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know, like, you know, a gunshot, you know, a couple of seconds, you bleed out, you're dead, you know.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, a wicked car accident, you're like, you know, you're you're you know, you're pretty much dead on impact, you know.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_00: But drowning, like you gotta kind of feel that pain of death for a few minutes, you know, or maybe a little bit, you know, longer, depending on your lung capacity.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_01: So you have uh thought about this, uh and this has brought about a fear of flying.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, I'd rather fly over over, you know, land than than water.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_00: At least you have a chance with landing because you can land on a highway or a cow field or you know, somewhere, you know, but you can't land on water, you know, unless you're got a pontoon or something.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, and then you know, the drowning thing, my wife, my wife likes to always do like adventurous things, and I just want to like sit on a chair.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_00: And so we went to Montana and it was whitewater rafting, and I'm like, you know, like what am I doing on a whitewater rafting?
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like what's wrong with this picture, you know?
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_00: And she like um was like, let's go whitewater rafting.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, we decided to go whitewater rafting with the whole group.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_00: There was like, I don't know, 10, 20 people, and there were three uh rafts.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, the more people you put in a raft, the better center of gravity, the better balance it is, left to right, front to back.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_00: When it came to our raft, it was like the fewest amount of people.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_00: Oh wow, it was the youngest tour guide, again, right?
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_00: Pilots and and rafting tour guide.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_00: Dude, this guy was so young.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_00: I think like he just like went through puberty.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_00: And um, and they had the coolers, you know, as as the you know, additional weight to make up for the lack of passengers.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_00: And my wife is just having a grand old time.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_00: She loves every white, you know, you know, crescent that we're hitting and the bouncing and all this.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, I was, you know, we should not be on water.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_00: And and then all of a sudden, like we went up and then like we didn't come down right and we flipped.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_00: Oh wow, and thank God.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, they make us wear life.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_00: Wear the life vest.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_00: But like, you know, they didn't explain to us in the event that your raft flips over, this is what you need to do, not like on a plane, like you know, like when the stewardesses tell you what to do.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_00: There's no instruction.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_00: There's there was no instruction videos.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think they expected us to flip.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_00: And so we flipped, and I went like all the we all did, my wife, we all of us, and we went all the way down, and like I went and I hit the bottom, and then you lose orientation, you don't know which way is up, which way is down.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_00: And then, like, and this is fast moving water, right?
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_00: So you I float up, I just you know, unnaturally float up, and you open your eyes under like the you know, Colorado River, it's like not exactly the Caribbean Ocean, crystal clear.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_00: And then everyone's like, do the turtle, do the turtle.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, what the hell is the turtle?
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_00: And so the turtle is basically if you ever find yourself, you know, in a white water raft flipped over, you're supposed to go on your back and put your arms and legs up.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_00: Because the idea is if you don't, your leg and foot could get caught in a rock, and that's what can pull you down because there's so many rocks in these Colorado rivers and other rivers, that that's how you drown.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_00: So they're saying, do the turtle, do the turtle.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, is this a dance?
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what the hell are you talking about?
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_00: Do the turtle?
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_00: So they were like, lie on your back, lie on your back.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_00: So you're lying your back, you have no idea what direction you're going in because you're moving.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_00: So you could like hit rocks.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_00: Let me ask this question: where's Monica?
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_00: And are you trying to save her?
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_00: So, Monica was for somehow didn't what ended up coming out away from the heavy stream current.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_00: She ended up more on the border side, like of the bank, and you're caught up dead in the course of the moving past water.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, I see the cooler going by me and and all this, and like obviously, you know, the other two rafts, they like you know, they had experienced guides and they did what they needed to do.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, um, I just turtled my way through the current.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: And ended up going, you know, head into a raft.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: And then they pulled me in.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_00: Dude, talk about cold plunge.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that was a cold plunge.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_00: That was invigorating.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, because Montana in like April, it's it's still cold, man.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that's not warm water.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_01: So let me ask this question about okay, so the flying and the white water rafting.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_01: As a doctor, you deal with death.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_01: But are you comf?
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_00: Are you comfortable with I think that's like very um very individual?
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_00: I'll I'll have to tell you, as a physician, I don't deal with death very well.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um I uh, you know, 25 years into it and and having pronounced people and having seen active dying.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_00: And um, I'm not I'm not really good at death.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not good at funerals.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_00: I I probably can count on one hand the number of funerals I've gone to, you know, and I would, you know, I just I don't know.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not I don't know, and it's not because I'm a physician and I think that you know we have this great skill and we're allowed to cheat death and all that.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_00: And absolutely not.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_00: It's just um it's it's the finality of it.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_00: It's like here today, gone tomorrow.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_00: It's you know, and when you lose a parent, I lost both my parents, um, you know, and I actually physically saw my mom like literally like die in front of me within 30 seconds.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_00: Like she's talking to me, and then she just went like that.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that like I actually my wife actually was with me.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_00: My wife was like, your mom just passed, and I'm like, I I was just like in shock.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_00: So um, you know, death is I don't know.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_00: I I you know it it's you could be very scientific about it, you know.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_00: I have friends that are oncologists and they see death a lot, and I think they're very uh very scientific.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_00: They're just like this is a disease, this is the process, this is the outcome.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, and I don't know.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_00: For me, it's you know, I don't know.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you you you see death as well, you preach about death, you do last rites, you go to probably a heck of a lot more funerals and wakes than I do.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's like part of your your resume.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_00: That's part of the job description, you know, and and you know, and and you know, I mean, you have to console, you know, families and um, I don't know, like what what's what's your thing?
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I think um in in seminary, we are well, I took an elective on death and dying.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_01: But the funny thing is, I was I was raised as I gave a shout out to my hometown of Dayton.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_01: I was raised by my mother and grandmother.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_01: And um my mother worked, you know, 40-hour work work week or longer.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_01: And so I spent a great amount of time with my grandmother, who was um, she was one of those persons in the community where if there was an emergency or things happened, they'd call her.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um, if elderly people were sick, she'd go help them cook for them.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_01: She was just there for everyone.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_01: And so I remember as a child, um, there was a neighbor who passed away, and she took me with her.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_01: And um I just remember I wasn't, I didn't touch the body, but I was exposed to death at an early age.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_01: And and she talked to me about it.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_01: And so, in a strange way, and I think about that often now, especially I thought about it a lot during COVID because I want to say within a probably within a year's time, maybe two years, I I did like 70 funerals.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I was okay.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_01: Now I think afterwards, the it took its toll.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I had to sort of like disconnect and sort of gather myself.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_01: But I always reflect back to, you know, my grandmother talking to me about death and it being sort of a natural part of life.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_01: And so I I was never afraid of dead bodies.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um, there's been a couple of times as a pastor where I've had to help family members like move a body, you know, just shift them.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_01: And um, so so I was sort of introduced to it.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_01: So once I became a pastor, um it wasn't that big of a deal.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, what's surprising though is how um people think that we know the answers, like that we have the answers to death.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I you know it's funny because I've had family members get upset with me because we have this thing about faith.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_01: But since you and I've been friends and you've informed me about how the body reacts and responds and how death comes, um, I've used sort of a scientific approach as well.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I've had some family members who've who've sort of pushed back, um, push back on me in terms of what I shared with them.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because you you've, I mean, you've you and I have talked a few times, and you know, I've seen enough situations now where it's just like, okay, I don't know if they're gonna come back from this.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_01: And and it's I'm no doctor, but I just know, you know, this is this is probably gonna end.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_01: And I have one family in particular.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, we prayed in the hospital room, and I shared with them, like, you, you know, you need to get ready, you know.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_01: And and, you know, it was like, what kind of pastor are you?
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_01: You don't have faith.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I want to say within a day later, they had passed.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_01: And and there's never, you know, I'm sorry, hey, you know, I understand it's the emotions and all of that, but I I've just done this enough where, you know, the body has a natural process.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_01: And so my role is not to um try to convince them one way or the other, but it's just try to comfort the person who's transitioning and along with comforting the comforting the family as they as they say goodbye to their loved one.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_01: But it's never easy.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_01: I just think that God sort of prepared me early on to uh to allow this to be a part of my ministry.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_01: And so um, yeah, it's it's it's different.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_01: It really is.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_00: You know what's I find um I find challenging is that when you talk about faith, Jehovah Witnesses, yes, they don't believe in blood transfusions, and so and they will not allow for transfusion.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, there are certain things that you can do to avert death, and the transfusion is one of them.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_00: And um, and and I mean, you can talk till you're blue in the face and use every type of analogy, like a car can't run in an empty tank of gas, the body can't run on an empty, you know, tank of blood, and they'll just say no.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean, it could be someone 40 years old, 50 years old, and you know, that's a life lost.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_00: And then, you know, when you when we talk about death as physicians, there's clinically dead and there's brain dead, right?
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_00: And so clinically dead, your heart stopped, your your lungs stop.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you're dead, right?
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_00: But it's the challenge for me too, is when a patient is brain dead, you know, and we know and we can define it, and it's you know, it's it's a clear, you know, way of diagnosing it.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that's where I think it gives that false sense of still hope because you know, patients will be like, but the heartbeat is still going, you know, right?
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, and sometimes obviously with medicine, you know, we can keep people alive and and we can I'll I'll say we're cheating death, but we're not cheating death with quality of life.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_00: That's the you know, yeah.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, there'll be machines that will breathe, there'll be machines that will pump, there'll be machines that will, you know, clean your your and do what your kidneys can't do for you, but at the end of the day, you know, you're you're not, you know, you're not living.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_00: You're you're actively just you know dying and everyone around you is suffering, you know.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_01: I I have used your words um early on when we first met, got to know each other, you you sort of explained this to me and talked about the quality of life.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I've used that often when um family members ask me whether or not when we're speaking of like the person being brain dead, and I use the quality of life, like like because family members have hope, and and I don't want to be the one to take that hope away.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_01: But I also um I think my role is uh to pray with offer spiritual support and and then just give them a different perspective and the quality of life conversations what I've I've used because there are some who've literally said they're still alive and they will come back from this.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, But the quality of life that they have right now, like they're they're not themselves.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_01: And and I was just wondering, as a doctor, I know what I the conversations I have to have, but how do you how do you talk to family members and and those in hospitals?
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_01: Like, how do you deal with that?
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um I mean, you know, I I like to bring bring the whole family together.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_00: Because unfortunately, you know, um a lot of people don't have living wills.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of people don't have medical proxies, so you have a lot of people making decisions, and sometimes those decisions are made out of guilt rather than, you know, and and I always would say if we could take a timeout and this person in front of us can wake up for a second and look at themselves and look at the situation, what would they want?
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_00: You know, because you have to make that decision, not based on your own selfish needs, you know, but what would they want, you know?
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I I had to make that decision because my dad, who was a surgeon, you know, he uh he could have lived longer.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_00: He died at age 89.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_00: He could have lived longer in order for him to live longer, he would he had to lose his leg because he had uh really bad circulation and he ended up having gangrene.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, my dad uh, you know, was a surgeon, and his philosophy is he's going out with all four limbs, like he came in with.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_01: Really?
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_00: So he refused to surgery.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I had to respect that.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't agree with it, but you know, one, you know, it's my dad, two, he's a doctor, three, he's a surgeon, and four, you know, he was prepared that this is what he wanted, you know, and so I had to respect that decision, you know.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_00: Even as he started becoming septic and and shock, and you know, I mean, it was bad.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but that was his decision, and I had to respect it.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_00: So I tell families, what would, you know, what is the decision or what would the decision be?
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_00: Because you know how your father, grandfather, mother, grandmother things, you know.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_00: I think the real, you know, real difficult one is when we see people who are, you know, challenging death and they're so young.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I mean, there was a uh, you know, a gentleman that I met last summer at an event.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_00: He was a young dad, literally just gave, you know, became a father.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_00: Child was six months old, peak of his life, young marriage.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_00: He must have been in his 30s, you know, maybe mid-30s.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_00: And he literally just dropped dead.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_00: You know, no warning, no, no, no, nothing, you know.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, when you it's just and with social media now, I mean, people kind of stay alive longer because so many of us, you know, are on social media with you know, different types of, you know, Instagram, Snapchat, this, that.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_00: So I think it almost makes it like harder because you know, now for me, if I want to, you know, revisit and see my mom, I look at old photos, right?
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_00: You know, because my mom wasn't of that generation.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_00: But I think nowadays, you know, when you see young people who we lose, you know, um, and you know, and it was, you know, for whatever reason, a car accident, a cancer, or just, you know, fate was against you, it's you know, you lose them, but because of social media, they're still always there and you see them, and you know, your phone, like I'm sure your phone, you know, you get these like kind of you know, monthly anniversary photos or some photos of something, right?
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, it it's it's bittersweet, I think.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_00: Definitely bittersweet, you know.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_01: Do you remember?
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um I'm asking this question because I'm I'm thinking about The Pit.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a huge fan of the show The Pit.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_01: Have you seen it?
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah Do doctors watch doctor shows and do you scrutinize doctor shows when you're watching it?
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so um I I watched a few episodes of The Pit.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um it's very accurate.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, obviously they have great medical consultants, so they're spot on in everything that you see.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um do I watch them now?
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, what I like to watch is I'll I'll watch like, you know, um what is it?
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_00: Uh Saint Elsewhere.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_00: Remember that one was Denzel Washington.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_00: That was back in the 80s.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_00: So I'll watch that old the old ones just to see how bad how bad and how good medicine was.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, doctors actually ran hospitals.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_00: That's true, right?
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_00: You could admit a patient and that patient would be there for like 12 days, you know.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, and and you see, you know, the relationship, the interactions, and how it was back in the day, you know.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_00: Compared to.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and you still saw how our administrators would kind of have a voice, but quickly they would be shut down by the physician.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_00: They would defer to the doctor, they had to defer to the doctor.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and and the doctor would had the authority to shut them down, you know.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_00: Now it's totally like out the window, but but I don't watch the pit.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, but it is accurate.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, Gray's Anatomy.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I wanted the longest running series, right?
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I'm just like they gotta stop already.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_01: When you were in med school or out of med school, do you remember one of do you remember one of your first patients dying?
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_01: And how did you feel as a doctor?
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_00: I absolutely do.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_00: I remember I was an intern.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, first of all, you got to remember when I did my residency, AIDS was huge.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it wasn't HIV, it was AIDS.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean, we had people walking around with CD4 counts of zero, immune systems of zero, you know, everything you would like see on if you ever watched the movie Philadelphia with Tom Hanks.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_00: And that's you know, and and I was at St.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_00: Michael's.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_00: So St.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_00: Michael's was known for two things AIDS and open art surgery.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_00: So ironically, we did open art surgery to save lives on one floor, and we were burying them on another.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_00: Wow, because there was always a a code on on the HIV floor, and there was a lockdown unit.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_00: And so um, so I would see death all the time.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but that quickly made me immune until one day, towards the end of my first year, I was in the CCU, and I had a patient, and he was like in his 40s, and he had a massive heart attack, and he was in cardiogenic shock, and we were barely holding him alive with pressers.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_00: And his two daughters, you know, like daddy's girls, they were in the room, you know, and one daughter was like, you know, probably in her 20s, like my my age, and and then there was a big age difference.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_00: The next daughter had to be like seven, eight years old.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, they asked to come in to say goodbye to their father because their father was not gonna be here, and I had to bring them in from the waiting room, and you know, and like I was there with them, and you know, I they both broke down, but the seven-year-old really broke down even harder because you know, dad was gonna be is gone.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_00: How old were you around you how I was like 28?
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_00: It was it was saying that was impossible.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_00: That was like I like I remember going into the encore room and like having like a breakdown that was just you know having to you know see you know these two daughters, you know, daddy's little girl, so to speak, and you think about everything, and you see a seven-year-old seeing them losing their father.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_00: It's that you know, uh look, I still don't forget it.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_00: And that was 1999, you know.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_00: So, Rev, I mean, obviously you're a you're a man of of the Bible and and of faith, um, and people will turn to you for many answers.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_00: So um, you know, in in many of these settings, which again you experience far more than I do at end of life with families and with lost ones, like what kind of, you know, when when someone unfortunately you've probably been to you know services of 20-year-olds and 30-year-olds and you know, and also of 90-year-olds, but you're probably asked questions, you know, especially, you know, the young that are lost, it's unfair, you know, it's not right, you know, there must be anger at God, right?
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_00: People, I mean, I I have seen people angry at God, like really angry at God.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you know, how do you rationalize, you know, how do you rationalize to me as a physician when I have to see, you know, um a childhood leukemia not make it, you know, or you know, a 30-year-old, you know, with an aneurysm and they drop dead at their desk.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_00: Like, how do you how do you tell us not to hate God?
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_01: Through, well, I don't.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I this may be um, you know, I'm I'm sure some colleagues would disagree with me, but um, I've had a couple of seminary professors and just life experiences that I tell people it's okay to be angry with God.
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um the God that I serve is big enough.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_01: Well, the God that I serve created us and gave us these emotions.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_01: And God is big enough to handle our anger because it is my belief that the longer we keep living, God has the power to transform that anger, that hate.
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_01: And so um, I tell them deal with and embrace whatever emotion you have.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_01: God gave us all of these emotions, so they are meant to be experienced.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think we'd like to pick and choose when we have to deal with it, but to those who've gone with through that, it's like it's okay.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_01: That is natural and God understands.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_01: I stay away from trying to answer the questions that I don't have answers to.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think that oftentimes people look to clergy for answers, especially heaven or hell.
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_01: Like, and I don't, I mean, you know, we read this, we read the Bible, and the Bible says, you know, you live this way and you you do these things and you go to heaven.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_01: But for me, the the God has the final say in all of this.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_01: And so I've I've learned or I've I've taught through the years that we may be surprised if we get to heaven and we see some people that maybe we didn't think would deserve to be there.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_01: But then we also probably be surprised if we're in hell.
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_01: So I try, I, I, I just I stay away from that.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_01: I I try not to frame my um my my eulogies around heaven and hell.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_01: There are some people who've lived good lives that I do believe that they will experience eternal life with God.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_01: I do believe that.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_01: But then there are others where life was cut short.
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_01: There was um my first five years, I want to say it was a young, young girl, I think she was nine, Asada.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_01: I still have a picture in my office of her.
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_01: She had a brain tumor and died.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_01: And that was that was probably the hardest.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_01: Because I mean it still gets to me because she was a beautiful young girl.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_01: And and what was so amazing was she she up until the very end, she handled it like a champ.
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_01: And um I celebrate her.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_01: I celebrated her then.
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_01: I still celebrate her memory.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I do believe that when children are called home, and that's what I say, God calls them home, that their eternal life is already taken care of.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_01: Like they will, there's no question about heaven for children.
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I don't know why God allows it to happen.
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_01: I I don't know.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_01: I I can't get into the mind of God and say, you know, and I and I try not to use cliches because that's that's that cheapens this experience, you know.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_01: God was missing an angel, so he called.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_01: Well, the parent is like, well, why call my angel?
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, why not choose someone else?
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_01: So I try to stay away from that.
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_01: I just try to deal with the emotions that family members are experiencing.
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_01: I try not to answer questions that I don't have the answer to.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_01: And if I don't have the answer, I let them know.
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm comfortable in that.
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_01: Now I will say early on, I tried to have the answers because I thought that pastors needed to have the answers, but we don't.
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_01: And it's yeah, to let folk in behind the curtains, we don't have all the answers.
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_01: We don't know.
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_01: We're living by faith.
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_01: We're informed by the Bible, but at the end, I do know we go to sleep.
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_01: All of us have an expiration day.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_00: Like, oh, absolutely.
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_00: I say that all the time.
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_00: I say the day we're born, there's already an expiration date.
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_00: There's an expiration, you know, and there's no changing it.
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know.
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_00: So born on and and die off.
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_01: That's it.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_01: And so we live life to the fullest.
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_00: We hope we're here.
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we hope.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_00: We got we all could probably live a little bit more, you know.
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um, finding that balance is always a challenge.
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_00: You know, play hard, work hard.
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_00: So um, you know, it's it's humble to be human.
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_00: I think we need to remember that.
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we we don't walk on water, you know, not at all.
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and um nor do we get on yeah, rafts.
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well in Montana.
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_00: If you're married to my wife, you do.
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_01: Unless you do the turtle.
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, yeah.
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, so that's our episode today.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_00: DD, diarrhea and death.
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_00: Diarrhea, what what a topic.
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_00: What a show.
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_00: If I think of double D's, I think of something else, Rev.
• 46:47
  SPEAKER_00: Easy now.
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_00: Easy.
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_00: Not diarrhea.
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_00: I'm clergy and death.
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know anything about double Ds.
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_00: Come on.
• 46:55
  SPEAKER_00: Just like to thank everyone for another episode of It's Just Not That Black and White.
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_00: We appreciate uh you.
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_00: We hope we can, you know, continue to share with you some of our views and um, you know, our our kind of black and white perspectives on topics like today, diary and death.
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_01: We'll see you next week on It's Just Not That Black and White.