Latest / Roast the Post Podcast / RTO Mandates: The Collaboration Excuse | Roast the Post: Grounds for Discussion

Transcript

RTO Mandates: The Collaboration Excuse | Roast the Post: Grounds for Discussion · Roast the Post Podcast

• 0:13
  SPEAKER_01: So this one was sourced from the Financial Times, and the headline is "A company
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_01: with no office requirement, just mandated three days in."
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_01: And so a bit of context here.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_01: this is Hargreaves Lansdown, the UK's largest DIY investment platform, will require
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_01: roughly 2,400 employees to work from its new
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_01: Bristol office three days a week beginning next year.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_01: It previously had no prescribed attendance requirement and says infrequent office
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_01: attendance has made collaboration harder.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_01: So that's the headline.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_01: And before I get
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_01: So my question, Paul, is and they're citing that if people aren't in the
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_01: office together, it makes collaboration harder.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_01: If collaboration is the problem, why is attendance so often
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_01: The solution?
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_01: What would an organization actually need to measure to know whether an RTO, so a
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_01: return to office mandate, improved collaboration instead of just increased presence?
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_01: So why is in-person so important for collaboration?
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_01: And then yeah, how are you measuring that?
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_01: How do you know that that's actually... that coming back to the office is actually
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_01: improving collaboration?
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_01: Doesn't happen
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_00: to see you.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I have I definitely have thoughts about this topic because it's been
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_00: something that's been unfolding here in Canada for several years, you know, kind of
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_00: coming
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_00: out of lockdowns and COVID.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_00: a lot of employers kind of flipped about and said, RTO, like you need to be in the
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_00: office X number of days a week.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_00: And collaboration is just the excuse.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_00: It's not the real reason.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_00: Like the real reason is has a lot to do with
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_00: power dynamics and with local economies, microeconomies around big office
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_00: buildings.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_00: and has a lot to do with perception of power and control from leaders who are
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_00: deeply,
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_00: deeply uncomfortable not seeing the worker bees tap away at their keyboards within
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_00: kind of
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_00: like I say.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_00: So this doesn't have anything to do with collaboration.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_00: That's just the convenient excuse.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_00: However, if we assume that this has something to do with collaboration, we'll just
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_00: give them the benefit of the doubt.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_00: Trying to measure collaboration, you're actually measuring the wrong thing.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_00: Measuring collaboration itself doesn't really have any impact or outcome on what the
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_00: business, what the organization does.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_00: So if you start to measure collaboration, how would you go about that?
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_00: Would you measure attendance at meetings?
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_00: Would you measure attendance in like a boardroom around like a whiteboard or
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_00: something?
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_00: Would you do a physical headcount and say, okay, we had 96% attendance, so
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_00: collaboration must be fantastic?
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_00: No, of course you wouldn't.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_00: That'd be silly, right?
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_00: It just doesn't work that way.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_00: So what do you measure instead of that?
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_00: You measure outcomes for the business.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: You know, if you're an organization that is making money, then you look at money
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_00: making.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_00: If you're an organization that is doing something in the NGO, nonprofit sphere, then
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_00: you measure the outcomes that are normal for that.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_00: You don't measure collaboration.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_00: Collaboration is just one piece of the puzzle.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_00: And the idea that collaboration can only happen in person is complete hogwash.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_00: And if you need to incentivize people to collaborate, you've got bigger problems.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_00: You've got deeper problems in the organization.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_00: You need to incentivize or you need to kind of work on feelings of fulfillment and
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_00: ownership.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_00: Those are the things that lead to collaboration.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_00: If people care about what they're doing,
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_00: If people care about what they're building, if people care about their colleagues
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_00: and they care about rewarding interactions, then they will start to collaborate.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_00: So collaboration is the wrong topic entirely.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_00: That's kind of how I feel about it.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I so I agree.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that like what's happening in Victoria where I live is that there are a
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_01: bunch of buildings with empty office spaces and office spaces
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_01: release.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_01: And then the the businesses, the local businesses are suffering as a result because
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_01: people aren't around town anymore.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_01: Like Victoria, you'll see when you're here, it's kind of like a ghost town.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_01: There's a
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_01: terrible drug problem in Victoria that kind of started with COVID.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_01: And
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_01: Victoria is a very mild weathered place.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_01: I talked about it in when one of the, I think in that sailing episode too.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_01: that like... it doesn't snow here.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's Canada, but it's like very much
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_01: a rainforest, it's very beautiful weather.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_01: And so for the unhoused population, it's just not as dangerous here.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_01: Like you're not gonna be as impacted by the weather.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_01: And so what's happening, what happened is when everyone went remote and then all the
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_01: offices closed down, it's like a ghost town and it's kind of being overrun with
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_01: the
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_01: unhoused population.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_01: And so there is a big drive to get people returning to work.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I agree with you, I don't think it's about collaboration, I think it's about
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_01: filling those empty
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_01: Spaces and boosting the
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_01: economy by having people, you know, visiting these businesses.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I get it, and I feel for them and everything, but I think the problem that I
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_01: have is, and this happened when we went remote in COVID...
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_01: People were trying to replicate an in-person office culture virtually, and
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_01: you just... you just can't.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_01: We are so
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_01: driven to go back to the way that things were instead of trying to think
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_01: up new ways of doing things and new ways of working.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_01: And so to me, that culture died.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_01: And some people do work in in person.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_01: But if you don't have to, and if you were remote before, then you just need to
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_01: rethink what that culture is like and
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_01: It's not about proximity.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's not about, you know, the water cooler talk.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_01: And for some people like me, I'm so happy.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_01: I work from home.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want to have water cooler talk.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_01: I find it painful and uncomfortable.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_01: and so yeah, I agree.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think it's about collaboration.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's interesting to know
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_01: What were they... what did they not have in terms of collaboration that they are
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_01: trying to get now by bringing people back to
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_01: work?
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_01: Like what are they trying, what gap are they trying to fill?
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_01: What real problem are they trying to solve?
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_01: What in their work goals and strategies
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_01: were being... what targets were not achieved because of the the lack of
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_01: collaboration.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_01: and so I agree with with the comment here apostoli saying
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_01: not every job requires the same amount of collaboration.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_01: So you're gonna bring everyone back in when really only some roles or some
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_01: departments require collaboration.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_01: And if you haven't figured out how to collaborate effectively virtually in this
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_01: whole period of time, then like that's a big
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_01: problem right?
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_01: You can
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_01: collaborate, especially, it sounds like they're all in the same time zone
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_01: and
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_01: everything it's not like it's distributed.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_01: It's not like it's, you know, a global team
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_01: and
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_01: you're telling me you haven't figured out how to collaborate effectively in a remote
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_01: environment?
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_01: That's, like... you suck.
• 7:31
  Do better.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_01: Figure that...
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_00: there's also the question of why does collaboration matter too,
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_00: If you you're painting collaboration as this deeply, deeply necessary
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_00: facet of work...
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_00: and I'm not arguing that collaboration is, you know, bullsh*t and unimportant, it is
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_01: important.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_00: But if you're blanket saying collaboration is the end-all, be-all
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_00: of our organization and without it, the organization dies, you're being a little bit
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_00: silly.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_00: RIght?
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_00: Because not everything requires collaboration.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, like you're saying, and to Apostolis' point, not every job requires the
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_00: same amount of collaboration.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely true.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_00: So why are we acting like it does?
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_01: And then I think the last part, and you touched on it, was, you know, what
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_01: would they
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_01: actually need to measure to know whether a return to office mandate improved
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_01: collaboration?
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_01: I think it depends on the organization.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_01: Clearly something is broken for them.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_01: But I have no idea what it is that they would need to measure because I think it's
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_01: just bullsh*t.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_01: I think they just want people to go back to the office so that they can have their
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_01: eyes on them.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_01: I worked with someone, I joined a company when COVID had already started,
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_01: but apparently
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_01: before that, when everyone was in person, my colleagues were saying that there
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_01: was one
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_01: leader who would watch the clock if you got up from your desk.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_01: Like how long were you in the bathroom for, or how long
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_01: was the lunch break.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_01: It was butts in seats, and that was all that mattered.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_01: And you you touched on that.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_01: so I call bullsh*t.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_01: I don't like it.