Latest / Conversations with Dad / Responding to discomfort
Transcript
- Mbrownstein3485: Hello, Dan. Stanley Brownstein: Hey. Mbrownstein3485: So right now we're not in the same house. We were in the same house last time we spoke. and now I'm at school and you're you're at home, I'm guessing. Okay. You're just you're you've got a different background going on this time. gotcha. With a nice big mug of something on your the shelf just behind you. Yeah. It looks maybe a cup of coffee, I don't know. Stanley Brownstein: Yes. What are you talking about? I'm my library. Is it I didn't even see that. What is that? Mbrownstein3485: So first wondering just how your how your body's feeling. You know, you've been Stanley Brownstein: It seems like it's coming along. I mean I I I d wouldn't say I'm a hundred percent, but I'm improving. I mean I've actually I went for a a walk today, which was really nice. I was starting it it was the weather wasn't as abusive as it has been. So I felt and I was definitely feeling antsy. I mean it's you know, so it's nice to get out. Mbrownstein3485: good. Right, right. Sure. That's really good to hear. And we spoke last time after taking a week break as as literally you caught your breath and our conversation last not last week, but the the week before touched on how we well touched on a f a few different things, but like i in something that is resonating with me in this moment. Is how we responded to the moments that we were attempting to pay attention to. And just the way whether we followed our breath, whether we tuned into our body, whether there was a a phrase or an expression that invited us to come back to our breath or to the moment. Just hearing a little bit more kind of what's inside your mind as you're practicing mindfulness. Does that sound familiar to you in terms of something that we we talked about? Stanley Brownstein: Yeah, I mean we've touched yeah, we touched we touched upon what it means to us and and try to describe it as best we could. Well why don't you share what you you know what your experience was, you know, since and then we'll kind of and I'll be happy to you know, screenboard off of that. Mbrownstein3485: Sure. Yeah, I I think there yeah, I mean it in in very concrete ways, it's been fun to hear and interesting to hear different moments in your life that stand out to you that kind of defines how you got to be where you are, whether we're talking about as a chiropractor, but then, you know, a big part of your life too is just like how you show up to the work, the work meaning, like the people, the interactions that you have with people, but also just like how you show up to your mind. And over the last session and a half conversation and a half, it's just been interesting to hear you kinda signal your intention when you are intending to be mindful. I mean there are plenty of times where we're not That's just not even on not even on our radar, but whether it's when you're practicing Tai Chi or when you're literally sitting down to pay attention to your breath and to your mind, just hearing what your intentions are was just really interesting. And Think the fact that you know you said something about how when you're when you're having trouble sleeping, you you you come back to those practices. whether it's following your breath or just tuning into how your body's doing. So I'm wondering when you're especially when your body hasn't been has been caught creating a lot of pain and discomfort for you. I mean, this is not the first time that your body has done that for you, but I'm wondering You know, how do those w how do those intentions and how do those practices what's the experience like for you when you've got significant physical discomfort? Stanley Brownstein: So w you know, what's interesting with those times is that it's more almost a survival mode. So you you're very focused on why you're doing it. And I think that's a big part of our practice is is holding on to our intention. So when you're in pain, you know, you you see what it takes to lessen the pain. Or I so, you know, I was ill for a few weeks recently and it wasn't there there was pain associated with it, but it wasn't the type of pain that I've experienced in the past where it you know it was it was more unrelenting. This was just Mbrownstein3485: Okay. Yeah. Stanley Brownstein: pain when I coughed and also just a feeling of, you know, malaise, exhaustion, that kind of stuff. So what was interesting about that relative to what we're talking about is the the appreciation of how I was feeling was reflected in just my view of reality. It it you real you know, that was a big takeaway from you know what I had been feeling recently was that you know if you're feeling like crap, it's everyone around you is crap and the world is crap. You know, where again pain is is you know, when you're feeling in pain, you know, if you're able to focus as much as you can, you you're able, if you're fortunate, you know, and you have the wherewithal that you know what your intention is and you're able to hopefully, you know, find a place a little bit of a sweet spot from it. So it's a little you know, I imagine when you're in constant pain, there are a lot of chemicals going on in your body that you know, help you in certain ways. Like I remember when when my shoulder was bad and I was at that time I was listening to actually at that time Sam Harris was holding this it was almost he was airing a like a meditation retreat but on air and I didn't listen to it but it was recorded. I mean, I didn't listen to it live, but it was recorded, so I wasn't able to sleep at all at night. So I would, you know, turn that on and, you know, listen in to Goldstein give his shtick, you know, on Buddhism and take questions and all this. And it was I was able to listen to it for hours. You know, I might have been going in and out of sleep, but it was the type of thing that was able to give me some peace where I don't think I could have done it otherwise like that. but relative to something that's not as extreme, I found that I was really seeing how much our mood shades our reality. And our what is our mood? Our mood is the extent that w in which we are identified with pretty much the chatter that's going on our head. A chatter might be things relative to things that are happening that are annoying us, you know, in our social life, our work life, or the chatter could be relative to you know, things that you know, you know, whether our own guilt about things or just what you know our our how we're feeling. You know, if we're not feeling good, you know, or if it, you know, rains on our p picnic, whatever it might be, all of these things, if we identify with it. I mean that's kind of the rabbit hole we go down and that I think I was saying how that w shades our existence. Now so a lot of it comes down to again intention. You know, what is our intention? Is our intention, you know, to change our environment, to change the world so it it it suits us, or is our intention to find some level of equanimity where we're able to you know, let those things go and have tools that allow us to s stay undistracted by those things and and recognize that that's a good place to be. Sit sitting with that equanimity. Did that answer your question? Mbrownstein3485: Yeah, it may it especially that especially and and and to me this was like the the threat that is most significant for me is when you said you know, is your intention to change the world to suit you or or is it about like how we're finding equanimity within it? And I think that's particularly significant and hard to do when you have pain. and it makes me think about how our efforts and our attempts to change our environment to fit our own needs, our like evidence, our examples of how we identify with the pain in a particular way or anything else that we're experiencing, how there's some probably some familiar or recognizable tendencies. Like I remember you saying at one point years ago in your work with Gergief, I think you called it the the drivers. so I'm wondering if you can say anything about how that those insights about yourself, how that may play a role in helping you to find that equanimity when those various things are coming up and chattering in your head, like you said. Stanley Brownstein: Yeah, the drivers are are interesting because I mean we have a certain certain number of responses to certain situations. You know, like if if you're driving a car and someone cuts you off. Let's say you know you're having a good day, you know, and you feel like you're being pretty cool and then someone like cuts you off. I mean, you know, it's very possible that your immediate response was thinking of that guy as an asshole and feeling enraged. I mean that's a driver that you know is Is is is cut and dry in in that situation. And it just, you know, it's catalyzed by your environment, but it it's you. And it also, and so I mean, if we kind of like go a little deeper into it, so if you recognize that again, that's you. You're expect your demanding the environment is different, even though that guy was an asshole, you're still demanding the environment's different. Mbrownstein3485: Yeah. Stanley Brownstein: So what do you do with that? You know, do you hunk your horn? Do you curse him? And then you just repress it afterwards because you're going somewhere else, or do you say, all right, you know, take a couple of breaths, see how I can feel differently in relationship to this? I've already lost it. I've already identified with that, you know, you know, that driver. But there are other drivers, you know, f you know, when when your wife says something to you. Or if your child doesn't perform as well as he think you think they can, you know, if if you fail at something, you know, whatever it might be, you know, if and so what you find is you know you start seeing a pattern of how you respond to those situations. And to the extent that you're identified with the driver and you're you're attributing the reality to the environmental catalyst, y you really won't see it. And you won't say, yeah, I know this guy. You know, that I I I remember this guy when I was like five years old. I even remember this guy from how my father acted. And I kind of I'm feeling like my father must have felt when he did this. So so that's kind of how You know, that that's an aspect of drivers that I feel is interesting. 'Cause I I still I mean, I don't you know, when I was doing a Gurdjieff, it was much, you know, more regimented, you know, identify the driver, identify the manifestation, identify the you know, the action against, you know, but even though I'm not doing that, it's st I still find that it's a it kind of seeps into my consciousness when I'm acting a certain way and I feel how familiar this feels to me and how I know that I'm being identified with something based upon, you know, a pattern in me in response to the environment. Mbrownstein3485: So I just sent you a photo. so the picture that I have that I that I shared with you, the top face represents the guess we can say the the the event or the experience. something that something from the environment that we didn't like. Now we can't control the environment. We can't p control the input. And what I what I drew and what I sharing with with with ultimately this conversation with this kid is like what are our choices that we have? Can't control the input, but what's what are the choices that we have available? So one of them is you have you respond by saying something mean back to the person. Another one is you respond by saying with conviction, with strength, with poise. Obviously there's a continuum w with all of this, but you say like how what what happened wasn't okay and to not do it again. another response is ignore. Another response is to pause and bring in another person to have a conversation, the three of you, to work it out. Another con another way, another response is you can fight. Another response is you can just leave and ignore it. And don't come back to it. And literally what I'll do is I'll just have them like flush out all the possible responses. And again, there's a continuum, right? Like you could say to some you could tell someone to stop, but you can say it with like a timid voice. You know, you could say something mean, but maybe it's funny and it's not offensive. Right? So there's a continuum with all these things. And what we'll do is we'll actually go through and say, like, what are all the pros and cons to all of it? And not just to l because they want to tell me what I want to hear. Stanley Brownstein: Sure. Mbrownstein3485: They're very quick and super able to say, for instance, like, why it's just not a good call to fight. You know, like it makes sense when we're angry, sometimes we like to be physical or it feels right to be physical. But like what's wrong with it? And it and you know, usually they'll start by just saying, Well, I'll get in trouble. But with only a few follow-up questions, they'll they'll be able to see like, well, what's the issue with it? So what That reflection is making me think of is how it's not only what you do, but it's also your intention behind it. And something that I try to support them to understand is like it's not like there's never a time to say something mean to someone. But if you're saying it recklessly and you don't have any expectation or thought, well, what might happen, you know, might they might respond in kind, and if you're not ready for that, well, then you shouldn't say anything. Like it's all it all kinda depends and the intention matters, especially when you tell someone to stop. You know, little kids have been told for since they were old enough to understand their primary language that, you know, you should use your words. But it's like how you use your words matters a lot. You know, using it with confidence is different than you asking someone to stop versus telling them to stop. So my Well at first if there's anything you want to respond to about that, feel free. but but the the thing that I'm most curious about is how would you what what strategies or tips would you give myself or a kid who I'm talking with around how to better understand the intention behind the choice that they make. And like how they can be honest about why they're making the choice as as an important step in understanding if it's the right choice or not. Stanley Brownstein: Well so so in your conversations with the kids you're dealing with, I imagine that you know I I I don't I think any conversation you have with someone is very individual. I mean y y you know, you you know you you c you know cook you know cookie cut cutter solutions are are Mbrownstein3485: Yeah. Sure. Stanley Brownstein: are valuable, but obviously they're not applicable to all. So I get the feeling f from the the you know the the little that you said regarding this. I mean you created a an accurate picture which I understand but I I I know this I'm sure this depending upon who you're talking to it's very different. But it seems to me a big part of it and it might be appropriate for the age and the circumstance is Mbrownstein3485: Sure. Sure, sure. Yeah. Stanley Brownstein: your the intention is being cognizant of the repercussions of your actions. Mbrownstein3485: Sure. Stanley Brownstein: Which is very external. So I think when we get into adulthood, and in fact if we do it too early as a child, we end up getting ulcers and act and get neurotic. But in adulthood you just, you know, you recognize it's not worth it. I'll look like an idiot, you know, image concern. It's you know, so I mean that's again, that's like you know, like Mbrownstein3485: Right. Stanley Brownstein: we touched upon last week, you know, when you're starting, you know, you you start where you're at and w what's appropriate in the beginning is important, but not necessarily functional you know, in the f you know, f for a a fulfilling practice your whole life, which is kind of what all this stuff is. I mean that that phrase where, you know, Mbrownstein3485: Yeah. Stanley Brownstein: You know, it's it's kind of better to pray in the closet, you know, if you do it sincerely than in front of, you know, an audience, you know. And most of us I think kinda stop at that point because it's easy. You know, and but it's a good place to start, not to stop though. So I think we have so so I think that's appropriate for kids. Mbrownstein3485: Right. Stanley Brownstein: you know, unless they understand differently, unl or unless they can't unless it that doesn't work for them and they just don't give a shit about the consequence, you know, somehow you may, you know, maybe you can touch upon something else. And, you know, some one place that I start if I'm talking to somebody about it or, you know, connected to myself is, you know You know, ki it's you I in and Gridger Fork, if I remember correctly, it was called like externally considering. So it's kind of like when a per when you're treating a person like a jerk, or you're acting like an asshole, or you're being violent, like where's your head at? You know, are you really thinking about that person? Or you know, or you know, how you know, think about how much you're suffering when you're treating a person that way. And how would you wanna be treated? When you were in that in that condition, it you know, do you know what I mean? It's kinda it's not about you, you know, when a person's acting that way. It's more about their suffering. You know, so that's kind of one way. I mean, of course you have to protect yourself. You know, if someone's throwing a stone at you, you you know, you have to like put your, you know, you have to deflect it, you know. Mbrownstein3485: True. Right. Stanley Brownstein: But by the same token, you know, it's kind of looking at the internal reality of the state that produces that behavior and also the state that reacts to it. And that's kind of another level of looking at these things. And that's kind of what mindfulness gives you. Now again, I'm not saying, you know, that's an appropriate conversation for a kid of a certain age. It's pr often it's not even received by adults. They don't really care. You know, it depends where they're at. Mbrownstein3485: Yeah. Right. Sure, sure. Right. Stanley Brownstein: So that's that's one way that I'll address what you're asking. If I you know, if you want to pursue it further, if you have questions about that. Mbrownstein3485: Yeah, I think I think my takeaway here right now is like there is value in paying attention and there are l various levels in complexity and and nuance in the consideration of the consequences. And depending on the situation, depending on the kid, and then of course or the person and how those that's that context and person, how they interact, the consideration of the of the impacts, I think could look and sound different. But it sounds like the act of slowing down to consider, you know, what's going on, the fact that we have some choices and to understand those choices. through reflection, both cerebrally but also probably paying attention to your body as well. yeah, it gives you a better chance of making sense of the situation. Stanley Brownstein: Yeah, I guess if you if you if you create a a a pause between before you react, you will be able to take in what's appropriate and and better in terms of what you're able to appreciate. So again, so if you know so You know, a big thing with you know, you think about you know, a relationship, you know, whether it's your kids, you know, or or or your spouse, you know, often it the the the arguments, I'll put it that way, or the disagreements or the sources of stress, for kids, you know, it's through you know, as they're developing, you know, and while they're still in the house for some you know, to some degree. Mbrownstein3485: Sure. Stanley Brownstein: And with a spouse it could be for decades. But it really it you know it it's you know, almost like a f so often we we feel justified in imposing what we feel is right. Even if it even if you know it becomes to lager jams, you know, with with your child, it's like, you know, there's so much baggage behind it because you know, you feel that you're you're giving them tools that they're not Mbrownstein3485: Right. Stanley Brownstein: You know, they're not appreciating, you know, like, you know, pedagogy to the oppressed, you know? And with a spouse or, you know, a partner, it's it's you're not being valued, that they're not seeing the pain that, you know, the the you know, they're causing you. But after you've done it like for 200 times or 250 times, you know, it's kind of like a real simple step. It's like, what is my end game here? You know, and then and and if you you know. And if you don't want to sit with the frustration of you know, not insisting upon the rightness of your point of view, you know, you you know, you feel the tension. So you say, okay, I'm feeling all this tension, I'm feeling all this anger, like, so that's mine, you know. So there's many different levels and nuances to you know what you can feel. And then to kind of go back to what I was talking about in terms of You know, that whole externally considering, you know, if you're able to immediately jump to the place that I s you see that person suffering or seeing that, you know, the consequence of that person's actions and knowing they're going to suffer and knowing that you love them, I mean that just enters a whole nother response that's not intellectual. It's almost kind of like, you know, you're rifting off what they're feeling and trying to connect with them. So there's many different levels of that relationship. Mbrownstein3485: That's one. Stanley Brownstein: But you know, it has you know, you you, you know, it has to be appropriate to you know, you could always come from the same place, but how you manifest it and how you communicate it with them certainly has to be appropriate to what they're able to receive. A quick little example was like what was interesting when you read the Bhagavad Gita, you know, an Ar Arjana's like this warrior king. Mbrownstein3485: Yeah. Stanley Brownstein: You know, and the godhead tells him, you know, and he's having doubts about having to go, you know, go into battle. He wants to go to, you know, and become this monk in the you know. And you know, when Krishna says, No, you y this is what you gotta do. So like he's saying, you know, you have to go into battle, but at the same time you don't go to battle with anger and vengeance and hate. You know, you you you y it's not really what you do, but where you're coming from when you do it, as long as you're not a sociopath. Mbrownstein3485: Appreciate that. And the i Yeah. No, I mean i i I mean the last three conversations I feel like the intention piece is just super important and there's and there's different layers and levels of intention that you're that one could probably that one can surface or unearth with with honest attention. Stanley Brownstein: It's a lot to swallow. I gave I just Mbrownstein3485: and k and and and honest attention over time. Stanley Brownstein: You think about raising kids. I mean it's really important, you know, chores and all that kind of stuff. You can see where it's really important. But but you know, like I remember like you know being pissed if you guys didn't take out the garbage. But in my head it was like, you know, responsibility, all this kind of stuff. Now insisting that you took out the garbage every day was one thing, but why why I wanted you to do it and what the truth was a mo Mbrownstein3485: Right. Sure. Stanley Brownstein: my the emotional reality of it is two different things. And then by the same token, just because you have a negative emotional reality to it, it doesn't necessarily mean you should stop, because it still could be a good thing that you're trying to instill. You just you have to you have to kind of walk that line and recognize, you know, I'm acting like an asshole, but they still should do it. So what happens is sometimes people just never insist about, you know, I'll do it myself. Forget it. It's not worth it. So I mean it's like it's It it can get kind of complex, but to be on you know, to not suffer with it and to recognize it, not be judgmental and you know, and go with what you think is with what you got, you know. Mbrownstein3485: Right. And the answer could be the skillful move could be to raise your voice at your kid, but not with uncontrolled anger. Stanley Brownstein: Yeah, like when you were when you were very young, mom and I might raise our voice at them and then we go into the other room and we'd chuckle because we just did it bec we didn't do it with anger. Mbrownstein3485: Sure. And that and that's and I think that's something like that may be an example of a lesson not worth trying to figure out with a kid, but still being able to pay attention and understand the impacts of our actions. And I think the other thing I'm I'm I'm hearing is just the value of you know, ultimately there's value in pausing. Stanley Brownstein: Right. Mbrownstein3485: Unless you're literally in a life or death situation, there's value in pausing. And probably even in those situations, there's still a moment that one can take. And part of the outcomes that I'm hoping for in reflection with kids and with any well, different with kids, I'll stick with kids, is for them to see the value of reflecting, even if it's after the fact, and how there's more choices available to them than maybe they realize. and then there's some things we can do to avail ourselves to those choices. and part of that is by pausing. Stanley Brownstein: Yeah, and and when you're mindful as an adult and you've been practicing it, the pausing kinda happens automatically. It was just like as you describe the I've got exactly how you p posed it, but you were just saying how You know, the the experience of breathing as an anchor. You know, how it you know, it becomes you know, it became much more slower in a way. I don't know if I'm appreciating exactly how you described it. You know, but again, if you're if you're sitting there, you 'cause you're not as as anchored to your environment in in that you know, emotionally. Mbrownstein3485: Yeah. Stanley Brownstein: Now so but with a kid, you know, again, you know, like counting to ten, you know, breathing before you respond. So I mean i it's kinda you know, they're at different levels of development and and and i and so are we. So what we might be doing might seem very basic, but it's kinda where we are. But pausing is I mean I think that's a big deal Mbrownstein3485: Right, right, right. Stanley Brownstein: for for all of us in terms of and and for you know, in whatever circumstance and whatever it takes. Absolutely. And like I said, breathing can do it, feeling your body can do it. Being in a better place to begin with can do it. Like knowing that, you know, I'm in a pissy mood. someone's gonna say something and and I know I'm gonna react, you know, so just kind of be a little bit easier today in in my relationship with things, you know, all of it, you know, kinda Taking stock of where you're at, what you can do. But yeah, pausing's a yeah, that's a very good point. Mbrownstein3485: Well I think we'll pause for now and I wonder if for next time Yeah, I think it's it feels right like we've started to lay down some tracks about thinking about like how you kind of brought this work into your into your role as a dad. I mean I know I know it from a certain perspective because I I lived it and obviously there's some lessons that I'm still thinking about and working through. And also it'd be cool to hear it from you. So I think I think maybe next time we'll we'll do that. and I'm gonna stick with the and and I'm gonna be paying attention this week to what I can unearth about my why as I'm doing the things I'm doing, in particular running and when I sit down to pay attention to my breath. Stanley Brownstein: Sounds good. Mbrownstein3485: Cool. Well I love you Dad. Thank you for talking with me. Stanley Brownstein: Love you too. Sure. My pleasure. Be well. Mbrownstein3485: Bye.