Latest / Integrate This! Ed Tech Podcast / Tasks Before Apps: Dr. Monica Burns on AI Power Tools, Ethical EdTech & Student Agency

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Tasks Before Apps: Dr. Monica Burns on AI Power Tools, Ethical EdTech & Student Agency · Integrate This! Ed Tech Podcast

0:00
Welcome to Integrate This, your go -to EdTech
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podcast where curiosity meets classroom innovation.
0:07
Join your hosts, David Berner and Jeremy Mikla,
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as we explore the rapidly evolving world of educational
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technology. From game -changing tools to insightful
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conversations with today's top EdTech voices,
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we're here to help educators stay informed, inspired,
0:21
and ready to innovate. So tune in, level up,
0:25
and let's integrate this. Welcome to the Integrate
0:29
This EdTech podcast. We are very pleased today
0:32
to have Dr. Monica Burns joining us on the podcast.
0:36
Dr. Monica Burns is an EdTech and curriculum
0:39
consultant, author of EdTech Essentials, 12 Strategies
0:43
for Every Classroom in the Age of AI, a second
0:46
edition, and former New York City public school
0:50
teacher. She works with schools and organizations
0:53
around the world to support pre -K through 20
0:56
educators with thoughtful technology integration.
1:00
Monica's website, classtechtips .com and Easy
1:03
Ed Tech podcast help educators place tasks before
1:07
apps by promoting deeper learning with technology.
1:12
Welcome, Monica. Very happy to have you here
1:14
today. Excited to be with you all. Let's go back
1:19
to the beginning if we can. You know, we mentioned
1:22
that you worked in the New York City public school
1:26
system. What was it that was the turning point
1:30
for you from that classroom teaching setting
1:34
into becoming a nationally recognized voice in
1:38
EdTech? Was there a single moment that you can
1:40
remember or just kind of what led into that?
1:44
Yeah, well, you know, I'm still based here on
1:47
the East Coast and love my time in the classroom
1:50
and started off in a really traditional environment
1:53
overhead projector chalk and a chalkboard right
1:56
all those things and we went one -to -one with
2:00
iPad pretty early on and so that you weren't
2:05
the first school weren't the first classroom
2:07
even in New York City, you know to do that but
2:09
pretty early on and Apple education based in
2:13
New York, their team in New York at least, had
2:16
reached out to me and asked if I could come and
2:20
speak at an event that they were having in New
2:22
York for other teachers. It was just like a random
2:25
weekday after school. They said, oh, if you can
2:28
come, we've got people signed up. We'd love to
2:30
hear about. what you're doing in your classroom.
2:33
And so I showed up and those few teachers were
2:37
really a few hundred. And I kind of got the vibe
2:41
from them that if they had told me it was a few
2:43
hundred, they were afraid I weren't going to
2:45
come. But I had no public speaking experience,
2:49
no theater experience, no jumping on a stage
2:52
experience. And just kind of got up there to
2:55
the podium and plugged in my iPad and moved through
2:59
my little keynote presentation with some of my
3:02
observations of what was working well with my
3:05
group of fifth graders. And that's when people
3:07
started to ask like, Can we follow you on Twitter?
3:10
What's your blog? What's this? What's this? And
3:13
questions I didn't have the answer to at the
3:16
time. And so a few months later, in 2012, I started
3:21
classtechtips .com, which is my blog. And I've
3:25
been sharing pretty consistently there ever since.
3:29
And I started my Easy Ed Tech podcast in 2019,
3:34
March of 2019. So just about six years now. And
3:38
it's been a wild ride of having an opportunity
3:42
to shift from full time in the classroom to traveling
3:46
around and working with educators internationally
3:50
here in the U .S. And I just hit my 50th state
3:54
speaking at the KISTI conference in Kentucky
3:57
this past March. Wow, that's pretty amazing.
4:01
Like, you know, to think about that journey that
4:03
you have taken, you know, like from being that,
4:06
you know, like you talked about that traditional
4:08
classroom. environment where you know you first
4:11
get your start and then to think where it's now
4:14
gone in the last decade or so. You know I know
4:18
you just mentioned that you visited all 50 states.
4:21
That's fantastic. That's really really cool.
4:23
It reminds me of this summer. My kids are big
4:27
fans of Ryan Trahan and he's traveling 50 states
4:30
and 50 days. So that's kind of like what I'm
4:33
picturing as you're moving around this journey
4:36
too, right? So shout out to Ryan if you're listening.
4:39
That's awesome. We would love to have you on
4:41
too. But, you know, when you get out and you
4:44
get to meet with teachers, you know, what do
4:47
you think really resonates with them when you
4:50
get a chance to work with them as far as, you
4:53
know, the tech tools in the classroom? And what
4:57
do you think they most take away from your presentations
5:01
and your time with them? Yeah, I mean, I think
5:04
my goal is always to make things super actionable,
5:07
right? As an educator, I've sat and attended
5:10
plenty of great professional learning that was
5:13
really focused on big ideas. And it's interesting,
5:17
but not always relevant to my everyday practice.
5:20
And I really want to make sure everyone feels
5:22
like their time is used really wisely when we're
5:25
together. And that's always my goal. And so I
5:29
try and share things that are quick wins that
5:32
might include more right of a heavy lift for
5:35
someone who's ready. That can help address a
5:39
specific pain point that I'm hearing generally
5:41
from educators or that I'm hearing from the room
5:44
right that I'm in. And that's something that
5:47
is a a core value for me and making sure that
5:52
the work that I do really feels relevant and
5:55
actionable for educators. So earlier this month,
5:59
just a couple of weeks ago, I was working with
6:00
a group of educators outside of Des Moines, and
6:04
we were looking at a few different things, a
6:06
few different themes from the new edition of
6:09
my book, EdTech Essentials. And one of them was
6:12
around generating content with the help of some
6:16
AI tools. And we were looking at tools that help
6:19
you create images. Like you've got your vocab
6:22
list today, right? Here's a couple quick ways
6:25
to make some engaging images that include your
6:28
school mascot, right? Or for something that's
6:30
gonna get kids to remember that vocab word a
6:33
little bit better. And here's, you know, a quick
6:35
tip for how to cite these images with MLA. great
6:40
recommendations. So in that kind of instance,
6:43
for someone who might take kind of all of those
6:46
tips together, I can make images, I can connect
6:49
to vocab, I can say images, like that's three,
6:52
you know, things that they could do right away.
6:54
Or maybe for someone who's like, yeah, that's
6:56
old news, I've been using Adobe Firefly or Canva
6:59
for two years now to make images, or I already
7:02
have a great vocab routine. But even if I'm not
7:05
ready to talk about AI generated content with
7:08
my students, I really I really do want to put
7:10
a citation at the bottom of my teacher's slide
7:13
deck. That way I'm modeling some best practices
7:17
and some transparency for them. So I sometimes
7:20
compare it to when we watch a Disney movie and
7:22
we laugh at different things, depending on what
7:25
we're coming into with it, or we watch something
7:28
a second time and we maybe catch a different
7:30
joke or reference. Kind of same thing goes there.
7:34
I want to make sure that even for a group where
7:37
we have a really set focus for a professional
7:40
learning time together, there are some layers
7:43
of takeaways for them that make it feel valuable
7:45
and worth their time. Yeah, and it's if we could
7:50
look at AI for a second here too, like in regard
7:53
to chat GPT, you know, and just AI in general,
7:58
one of the things that in a recent webinar that
8:01
you did with that was titled Power Tools for
8:04
the Classroom that in you talk a little bit about
8:08
healthy hesitation. So I think like you mentioned
8:10
pain points. Obviously, you are a pain point
8:13
for many right now for any of reasons, because
8:18
you know, not sure quite how to approach that.
8:20
So when we look at healthy hesitation, that concept,
8:24
what do you what would you recommend? And in
8:27
maybe kind of referencing back to that webinar,
8:30
what three features? What things do you think
8:33
are worth educators' time when they're starting
8:36
to use a tool like ChatGPT? Yeah, and I think
8:39
it's really important to acknowledge what everyone's
8:43
big feelings are, right? Coming into a conversation
8:46
with AI, for lack of another way of putting it,
8:49
right? And I know that I hold a couple different
8:52
big feelings that might feel like they're competing
8:55
against one another at the same time, right?
8:59
hesitation that's there, I think is important
9:01
to acknowledge and validate. I know when I'm
9:04
working with groups of educators, it's something
9:07
that I might not lead with in the first two minutes,
9:11
but within a few, maybe 20 minutes or so, we're
9:14
really acknowledging the fact that there's hallucinations
9:16
with chat GPT, that these models are trained
9:19
in ways. That may intentionally or unintentionally
9:24
scale your bias that's present in the materials
9:27
that they've learned on one thing i was just
9:29
with the school in new york and late may and
9:33
it was one of the first times that i had a few
9:35
people really follow up with me when i mentioned
9:38
the environmental impact so it's something i've
9:41
mentioned for a while now just like a lot of
9:43
our tech use but particularly with generative
9:45
ai right i was. I've found really over the past
9:49
six months or so more people are curious about
9:52
that or hearing it not just when I'm planting
9:54
the seed, but when other people are wrenching
9:57
it too and want to talk about what that looks
9:59
like with water consumption and cooling servers
10:02
and kind of all the things. In this particular
10:05
webinar that you referenced, my role on the panel
10:08
was to share some updates from Chachi PT that
10:12
I thought were really relevant for this group
10:15
of educators. One of them that I love is the
10:19
ability to use voice and not just the voice like
10:24
talking back and forth to a smart home device
10:26
where you talk with a voice and you hear an AI
10:29
generated voice. That's nice, but not my personal
10:32
favorite workflow. I really love the dictation
10:36
feature that's now built into Chachi PT. You
10:39
see it in Gemini, you see it in a couple others,
10:41
but it's gotten a lot stronger recently. I sometimes
10:45
joke that my Long Island accent and vowels, right,
10:48
it still is able to work with that while it's
10:51
doing the dictation. But it's just a great way.
10:55
to skip what might feel intimidating for someone
10:58
who hasn't spent a lot of time with prompt generation
11:01
but still has plenty to say. So you can kind
11:04
of do a brain dump. Like, here's all the things
11:07
I want to put in this email. Here's all the things
11:10
I want to include in this lesson I'm teaching
11:12
next week. And you're just kind of spitting it
11:14
all out. You don't have to worry about organizing
11:16
your sentences. You can kind of add in fragments
11:20
as you're talking. And then the chat. GPT will
11:24
take that, transcribe it, and now you've got
11:27
your set of instructions that you're giving to
11:29
this tool. So if you've used Chatbots before,
11:33
ChatGPT in particular, and you've done a lot
11:36
of reply to refine is kind of how I describe
11:39
it, right? Like, okay, more of this or less of
11:42
this, or I forgot to say this, right? Here you
11:44
can kind of front load a lot more without feeling
11:47
like you're typing too much or writing a whole
11:50
paragraph. So that's one of the features, probably
11:53
my favorite. It's a big part of my personal workflow,
11:56
so I love to demo it. It's available in the free
12:00
and the plus version. The only way you wouldn't
12:03
be able to access it is if you're doing the demo
12:06
where you don't log in at all. You won't see
12:08
that button there in most cases. Um, and then
12:11
the other features I shared, one had to do with
12:14
the library feature. So that's also one that's
12:17
in the free version where it now will collect
12:20
all of your media output. So if you've created
12:23
images, it just organizes a little bit better.
12:25
And then the projects, um, which is a paid feature,
12:29
I believe still, you know, sometimes these things
12:31
evolve before I can double check. And so for
12:34
that, it's nice because instead of creating a
12:38
custom GPT, which might feel a little intimidating,
12:41
here you're basically defining what's important
12:44
to you in a project. I have one for email writing,
12:48
for example, where I say, I always like to start
12:51
emails this way. I always like to end emails
12:54
this way. I don't use this sort of wording. Like
12:57
here's some examples of emails that I've written
12:59
that are true to my voice. And now if I say,
13:03
hey, write a check in email with this person
13:05
about X, Y, and Z, I'm not putting anything personal
13:08
or private in there, but it surely is saving
13:10
me a lot of time of at least getting my skeleton
13:14
of an email together that I can further customize
13:16
once I copy and paste it into my inbox. No, that
13:22
sounds like a really interesting way to use that
13:25
and not one that I've done I've used the projects
13:28
and chat GPT But mostly is is like an alternative.
13:31
I think to like notebook LL Now where I just
13:34
put my resources and things in there and then
13:36
I interact with it But I really like what you're
13:39
talking about here Which kind of leads me into
13:40
this next question here because you're really
13:42
talking about a task that you have a specific
13:46
purpose for Right, and then you're aligning the
13:50
best tool to help you with that particular task.
13:54
And to me, it kind of is reminiscent of being
13:56
in the classroom and starting with learning goals
13:58
before you're adding in that tech tool. And you
14:02
even in your intro called it tasks before apps.
14:05
Can you just kind of elaborate on what you mean
14:06
by that? Yeah, so tasks before apps is a phrase
14:10
I started using. alongside the presentations
14:14
I still do now, which are the listicles of favorite
14:17
tools. I just did one in a group in Arkansas
14:19
last week, where it was 15 new AI tools. And
14:23
I always start the same way, you know, with that
14:26
task before apps reminder, like what's our purpose
14:29
here? What's our goal? What are we trying to
14:32
accomplish? And then that reminder that I might
14:35
give you this list. 15 tools that I think are
14:39
new and noteworthy, but I really don't want you
14:42
to use all of them. Like, I don't even want you
14:44
to remember all 15 of them. I just want you to
14:48
add maybe one or two to your tool belt that are
14:51
relevant to your everyday practice, coming back
14:53
to that actionable piece, and then maybe recommend
14:57
one or two to a colleague who mention something
15:00
to you casually or formally, right, that they
15:03
need or are looking for a little bit more support
15:05
with. So that idea of saying, what are my goals,
15:08
right, for the first month of school? What's
15:11
my goal for this unit of study? Is there a tech
15:15
tool that can help me accomplish that goal or
15:18
do something better? And when I say better, I
15:21
don't mean that what we were doing before is
15:23
bad, right, but better in the fact that I can
15:26
reach that other particular student who I couldn't
15:29
quite reach before, or I can create an experience
15:32
that's more authentic to this small group, right?
15:35
So just really scaling our impact a bit more.
15:41
Yeah, and if one thing that if we could take
15:45
a look at like AI tools, one of the things that
15:50
aside from, you know, looking at Is the application
15:55
going to actually help me achieve my goal? Another
15:59
element that teachers have to consider is the
16:03
responsible use of it. And so is it going to
16:07
be effective? But then there's also these ethical
16:09
implications and that, you know, we have data
16:13
privacy. We have had privacy issues with EdTech
16:17
tools in general. But then, you know, and vetting
16:21
those properly. But then it just seems like it
16:23
exploded even further and became even more of
16:26
at the center of these conversations because
16:29
of AI. So what do you think is the most important
16:33
mindset shift for teachers when they're considering
16:39
tools to use so effective use and accomplishing?
16:44
Their task with an app is is one one piece of
16:48
it But then could you touch a little bit too
16:51
about just the ethics or the responsible use
16:53
as well? What's the most important thing that
16:56
they should be considering there? Yeah. I mean,
16:59
when I work with educators, particularly if I'm
17:02
embedded with a group, like a district that I've
17:04
done some work with before, they've typically
17:07
already vetted a tool. It's already been approved.
17:10
They know that it meets state level or district
17:13
-wide compliance. That looks different in different
17:16
places. So in those cases, we're going a little
17:19
bit deeper. We might even look at what the student
17:21
experience is, if it's a student -facing tool.
17:24
But generally speaking, when I'm working with
17:27
Laura, group of educators where I might not know,
17:31
you know, the nuances of what a particular school
17:34
or district or even state, you know, if I'm at
17:35
a regional or nationwide event, I tend to focus
17:39
more on instructional tools that an educator
17:42
is using behind the scenes without adding or
17:47
uploading anything private or sensitive. And
17:50
if they are creating something that will be student
17:54
facing, they're taking some of the best practices
17:57
that they've had since they got a stack of newspapers
18:00
delivered to their classroom. They're choosing
18:02
the article. They've read it through. They know
18:06
that it's appropriate for their group of students.
18:08
And they're ready to share that piece of content
18:11
with their curator hat on. Or maybe more recently,
18:14
they've watched that YouTube video before they
18:16
press play and shared it with a group. I'm always
18:20
looking for those tools that a student does not
18:23
have to log into, that a teacher can easily review
18:27
any output, make edits and changes and customizations
18:31
before it even gets to a student. And so plenty
18:35
on that list that I tend to lean into when I'm
18:39
demoing or sharing a best practice for this.
18:43
brisk teaching, which has been around for a bit.
18:46
I did a post in partnership with them last summer
18:48
and I've kind of followed along with all their
18:50
updates. And one that I've seen a lot of great
18:54
response to is their podcast feature, which kind
18:57
of mirrors the notebook LM component. you mentioned
19:01
earlier. And so with that, like you have a piece
19:04
of text, you have a source material, and then
19:07
you're generating a say two minute podcast that
19:10
you can edit. And so I think what's really important
19:14
there is that you have a why behind sharing that
19:18
and some intention right behind sharing something
19:21
like that. So for example, It's not just, oh,
19:24
this is cool, now we have a podcast. It's I want
19:27
to have an audio version that's going to provide
19:30
a base for students before they dive into this
19:33
resource that might be a little tough for them
19:36
to tackle independently. Or this is an extension
19:39
activity for students who are going to continue
19:43
exploring a particular topic. So you've got that
19:47
intention in mind. But then I also think it's
19:50
really important and it's easy to skip this step.
19:52
right, to have a level of transparency on how
19:56
that resource was made and what is actually happening,
19:59
right, when you press play on a resource like
20:01
that. So sharing, right, this is source from
20:05
this resource or this material saying you can
20:07
see the link here at the top or however you share
20:09
it saying these are not real people. talking
20:12
about this resource. There was a Sirenet live
20:16
sketch earlier this year that kind of brought
20:19
that concept to life of this mishmash of these
20:23
doesn't make sense what's coming out of the mouth
20:25
of this robot, if you will. And so in this case,
20:29
you're saying this is two robot voices who are
20:33
talking with my air quotes there about this topic.
20:37
Let's listen in and see what gems we can get
20:39
from this AI -generated conversation. And you
20:43
don't have to go into the logistics of that.
20:45
You don't even have to really understand how
20:47
it was made in a deeper way. But just even throwing
20:52
that sentence out there, I think, provides a
20:55
level of transparency for a group of students.
20:58
And with that particular tool, this is true of
21:00
most of them. You can download something like
21:03
that for offline listening. You can share a link
21:06
to it. And that way, students are not logging
21:09
into something or interacting with a chatbot
21:12
experience if that doesn't feel appropriate or
21:15
scaffolded for the particular group you're working
21:18
with. Yeah, so I know you've been diving into
21:23
the AI stuff here for a while in education and
21:26
you have your own AI and education membership
21:29
that support teachers and curates resources,
21:33
throwing PD opportunities out there. What's one
21:37
way that you've seen your membership really use
21:40
AI not to just like foster efficiency, but like
21:44
to be really impactful and enhancing student
21:46
learning? Yeah, I mean the memberships been really
21:49
fun I have had my easy I tech club for about
21:53
six years now There'll be six years in July which
21:55
like has new ed tech masterclass each month a
21:58
whole bunch of stuff to explore really broad
22:00
like k -12 But when the AI piece came on the
22:03
scene, especially because things were moving
22:05
so fast I thought it would be a good opportunity
22:08
to do more like a monthly update of curated content.
22:13
I give three things every month for people to
22:17
dive into, like don't do all the things, but
22:19
here's three things that might be worth checking
22:21
out. But what I think sets it apart and what
22:23
I hear from people because of just the questions
22:27
I get and face -to -face moments too, is I try
22:30
to spotlight resources that may go beyond. education
22:35
on the surface level, but have implications for
22:37
what we're looking at here in education. And
22:40
if saying this is a conversation or this is a
22:43
resource related to a different industry, it
22:46
might be something that you want to keep taking
22:48
a look at as you're developing policy. Or here's
22:51
an article that shares some research that talks
22:54
about career readiness. If you're developing
22:57
policy, this might be something that you want
22:59
to reference in your planning meeting. So in
23:02
addition to saying, here's what's new on the
23:04
scene within education specifically, I try to
23:09
share some things that are on the outside edges
23:12
that are definitely impacting the work that we
23:15
do. And every month, I even share a new vocab
23:18
word. something I heard that I think you're going
23:21
to hear more of. And I haven't really tracked
23:24
like my win rate with those vocab words, right?
23:26
Because there's some that I hear and then I'm
23:28
like, oh, I'm so glad I included it. Because
23:30
now everyone's saying agentic AI, or I'm so glad
23:32
I mentioned this one, you know, because now I'm
23:35
hearing everyone say slop, right? To talk about
23:37
all this output, right? And then there's others
23:39
I've mentioned where I'm like, ah, that one didn't
23:41
take off, but at least you know about it. Or
23:43
at least, you know, if it comes back around a
23:45
year from now, you're like, oh, Monica mentioned
23:47
that. So it's been fun. to create those resources
23:50
and have just that vision of wanting to kind
23:55
of help people not feel overwhelmed in a space
23:57
that's very easy to be overwhelmed with so many
24:01
new updates. And the definition thing is great.
24:05
I think that's a really. Good point because I
24:08
think even in when we present and stuff like
24:11
that, like sometimes some of that can get lost,
24:13
you know, defining your terms and what some of
24:16
these things mean, especially because some of
24:17
them are so new. And it's easy to forget that
24:21
a lot of folks might not know what that means.
24:23
Like Jeremy and I just did a presentation and
24:25
we talked a bit about like cognitive offloading.
24:28
And so there's, you know, maybe an assumption
24:30
there that people just know what you're talking
24:32
about. I think it's really a great point. to
24:36
define your terms, help people understand like
24:39
what all is a part of that term. So that's so
24:42
funny. Yeah, I say brain capital a lot, kind
24:44
of like meeting the same thing, like, you're
24:46
like, kind of just get rid of some of this extra
24:49
right energy. And it is one that I sometimes
24:52
I'm like, maybe I should pause or say what I
24:54
really mean. Or, you know, what's my gesture
24:56
that goes at that? When talking to a group? Yeah.
25:00
Yeah, that's great. In it so and we've obviously
25:03
like we've we've focused quite a bit on the teacher
25:06
side or the educator side You you recently had
25:10
a post called for fun activities to teach students
25:12
about AI chatbots And that's actually one question
25:15
that we work with a lot of schools and that's
25:17
one thing that has come up quite a bit where
25:19
you know, I've had individuals at schools reach
25:22
out to me and say like what would be a good program
25:25
for teaching students about There's obviously
25:31
now a number that could be recommended. Can you
25:35
fill us in a little bit on your perspective on
25:38
what impact AI is having on students, maybe focusing
25:43
more on the K -12 aspect, and any insights on
25:49
where you think that's heading as we go into
25:52
this next school year? Yeah, and I think there's
25:55
ways to have this conversation with and without.
25:58
giving students access to a chat bot. When you
26:01
talk about the kind of cognitive offloading for
26:03
a teacher, there's also this idea of what can
26:07
kids wrap their head around cognitively when
26:10
they're in these spaces interacting with a chat
26:13
bot. And so it may be appropriate to bring kids
26:16
into a space where they're interacting with a
26:20
tool that's vetted. I often will share school
26:22
AI's chat spaces, right? Or chat bot activities
26:26
for students as an example of one where it's
26:28
like moderated. You can set up kids for success.
26:32
You can pause everyone, right? So there's like
26:34
some things that are built in. to facilitate
26:37
that student experience. But particularly in
26:39
that blog post you mentioned, which has an excerpt
26:43
from the second edition of my book, Attack Essentials,
26:46
you don't have to have kids inside a space, particularly
26:50
if you're just not sure where your school and
26:54
district policy is or what you are comfortable
26:56
with. I surely have mixed feelings about the
27:00
idea of setting up eighth graders to chat with
27:03
a simulation of Abraham Lincoln. even though
27:06
I understand some of the benefits when it's shared
27:10
in a way or set up in a way that really is purposeful.
27:15
But if you are keeping kids off of chat bots
27:19
in terms of their interactions, but you want
27:21
to introduce this concept to them, you could
27:25
share with them a side by side, like a compare
27:27
and contrast. These are the results I got when
27:32
I did a keyword search. this is what happened
27:34
when I went into a chatbot. Let's talk about
27:37
what is different or what's missing. It's curious
27:42
that Google mentioned this in the list of things
27:44
I should look at. And Chachi BT didn't mention
27:47
this in the three paragraphs they gave me. Why
27:50
is that? Or what could I follow up with the chat
27:55
bot or follow up with by adding into my keyword
27:58
search? So you might skip the comparison and
28:02
take kids straight to, say, Gemini and show them.
28:06
an output and say, like, did this get me where
28:10
I wanted to go? Like, what kind of feedback would
28:13
you give me on the prompt that I wrote? What
28:16
should I have included? And if you've done any
28:19
type of writing or modeling, right, with students,
28:22
right, you know that you leave out the juicy
28:25
adjectives because you want to show kids how
28:27
you revise your writing, right? So, like, you
28:29
might do that really strategically, right? Leave
28:32
out that extra piece of context so you have something
28:35
to talk about. with your group. You might also
28:38
share an output with them and have them fact
28:41
check it and talk about what that process looks
28:44
like for as much as I show different strategies
28:47
for using chatbots with a group. You know, I'll
28:51
often share the things that are low stakes, like
28:54
give me a list of fruits and vegetables with
28:56
an emoji next to each one. Awesome. That saved
28:59
me some time for an anchor chart I'm making.
29:01
But if I ask it to make a timeline of events
29:04
in the American Revolution in the state of Delaware,
29:08
like I need to double check that because I don't
29:10
know for sure that all of those things happened.
29:13
And so you might do that with a group, right?
29:16
Say, I just don't know. I'm not an expert on
29:19
this region as much as I might teach you about
29:22
American history. I need to double check this.
29:25
Where would I even go? Is there a historical
29:27
society? Is there an encyclopedia article? Are
29:31
there links next to each of these events where
29:32
I trust that as a vetted source? So you can do
29:36
a lot without ever having kids type in chatgbt
29:40
.com or copilot or another tool and still introduce
29:45
some of these best practices. this is that they
29:47
might use at home or they might use later on,
29:51
you know, in their academic career. No, I think
29:55
those are a lot of useful practical strategies.
29:57
You know, the one that you mentioned, I didn't
30:00
even really think about, but now I'm imagining
30:02
how could I do something with this as well where
30:04
you had, you know, here's your key term search
30:07
and then you talked about, here's my interaction
30:09
with the chatbot and the kid would never even
30:11
have to touch it. The teacher just shares it,
30:14
but the meaningful discussions that could take
30:16
place there then the kid is going to see I think
30:18
that there is a difference between the internet
30:21
and between generative AI and even though you
30:25
know even you google now when you type stuff
30:27
in it's giving you their AI response now right
30:30
still and kids I'm sure have seen that and be
30:33
able to have that conversation with them and
30:37
you know start that dialogue and and maybe they
30:40
would then find a more purposeful and effective
30:43
way to utilize that tool so I think that's That's
30:46
a connection that you just made for me. I really
30:48
appreciate that. I'm sure you get a lot of teachers
30:53
that come to you, though, overwhelmed with EdTech
30:57
and EdTech tools. Whether it's the sheer amount
31:01
of those that are available or perhaps they're
31:03
feeling pressured from their colleagues or from
31:07
their administrators to be more purposeful with
31:11
the types of technology integration that they're
31:14
using. And so if these teachers that are feeling
31:18
overwhelmed are coming to you, what are some
31:21
questions you would like them to ask before committing
31:24
to a particular tool? Yeah. I mean, I think the
31:28
biggest thing, and this can happen really any
31:30
time of year, but it might be a reflection question
31:33
at the end of the year or one that they use as
31:36
a planning kind of question before starting a
31:39
new year, is what are the categories of tools
31:43
that I I really want to have. And I think that
31:47
can help them streamline their tool belt. Some
31:51
of them might be non -negotiables. Like, I can't
31:53
pick my learning management system. I've been
31:55
told to use that. I sometimes use the phrase,
31:58
like, embrace your place. Like, you've been given
32:00
this. Like, don't. try and find another workaround,
32:03
like just use this thing because you have a community
32:07
of people who also know what button to press,
32:09
who can help you troubleshoot, right? Even if
32:12
it's not perfect, none of these are perfect,
32:14
right? So, you know, it'll at least get you 90
32:17
% of the way there, even if it's not the one
32:19
you would have picked and you have a community
32:21
already around it. But the other areas where
32:26
someone might have more flexibility or they might
32:28
have a list of tools from their district that
32:30
they've been given the green light on, you know,
32:33
are really, I would say three core areas to focus
32:36
on. One is how are you going to collapse? and
32:40
share those resources you curated for a group.
32:44
Maybe it's your learning management system, right?
32:46
Or maybe you are going to just stick with HyperDoc
32:49
all year long for every unit of study and have
32:52
all of those resources that you find from favorite
32:55
places. So how are you going to collect resources
32:58
that you're then going to distribute? Choose
33:00
your one way to do that. The next is your assessment
33:04
tool. Sometimes this is mandated that you have
33:07
to use it a certain way, or sometimes you have
33:09
some flexibility. Like, how am I checking for
33:12
understanding? Maybe it's more than one tool,
33:15
but if I look back on the year and one works
33:17
really well and one didn't, what am I going to
33:19
keep? What am I going to drop? It doesn't have
33:22
to be quizzing, right? It could be a polling
33:24
tool. It could be video exit ticket, something
33:28
that gives kids a lot of choice. So something
33:30
that's going to help you check for understanding
33:32
in the best way for your group. And then asking
33:36
yourselves, what kind of open -ended creation
33:39
tool can I use more than once? over the course
33:43
of the school year, right? What is that tool
33:45
going to be that allows kids to share their learning
33:48
in a handful of different ways? I've done some
33:52
work with the book creator team. That's a big
33:54
favorite one for K -12. You can do a lot with
33:57
kindergarten. You can do a lot with high schoolers,
33:58
right? So I love, you know, with my professional
34:01
learning work to share something that is nice
34:03
and wide like that, you know, maybe. It's Canada.
34:07
Maybe it's an Adobe Express. I've done some work
34:09
with the education team in Adobe too. And you
34:12
know, that's another one that gives plenty of
34:14
flexibility. So what's something that's not a
34:17
one and done creative tool, but that you can
34:19
use? consistently over the course of the year.
34:23
Maybe you start low stakes with them all about
34:26
me activity or three favorite things and you
34:28
learn where all the buttons are and then you're
34:30
dialing it up right using the same rubric from
34:33
last year's project. But now you're just in this
34:36
one familiar space and you're not spending time
34:39
getting kids comfortable there. You're just revisiting
34:42
the spot consistently with a different purpose.
34:46
And I would say too, just from my own experience
34:49
with working with teachers, one of the, I find
34:53
to be one of the most beneficial things is giving
34:56
them the hand, like guided hands -on time to
34:59
actually explore these things that you're referencing
35:02
and give them the time to do that. And you've
35:06
done a number of presentations over the last,
35:12
how many years now? And so, and we've attended
35:15
your sessions, like I mentioned, but what would
35:19
you say, because of the different areas that
35:25
we're now in, so both in -person events and then
35:29
now remote events, because yeah, the whole pandemic
35:32
situation, there's just a lot of virtual opportunities
35:36
out there. I'm really interested in, your consulting
35:41
work in that regard, and what are some of the
35:43
things that you find that are helpful to engage
35:47
with educators, especially in a remote PD, because
35:51
I know that that can be much more difficult than
35:53
when you're working with a group in person. What
35:56
do you find are some helpful tools or strategies
35:59
when you're in those type of settings? Yeah,
36:02
I mean, it's been a wild few years, right, of
36:05
hosting webinars and figuring out what makes
36:08
the most sense for different groups of people.
36:11
And it really depends. I mean, in just the month
36:13
of June, I did virtual PD where I'm the only
36:17
one on the screen who's virtual and everyone
36:19
else is sitting around a table together or doing
36:23
PD where there's some people who are joining
36:25
in from lots of different places. And then there's
36:27
also a room with 30 people in it who are in a
36:31
different kind of space. So it's evolved a bit
36:33
too in some of the challenges and benefits, even
36:38
post -distance learning, if you will. So for
36:42
me, when I'm running those sessions, one thing
36:45
that's shifted a bit in the past, I would say
36:48
two or three years, is I've been doing more workshop
36:51
series as opposed to more standalone ones. So
36:55
what that looks like is I'm with the same group.
36:58
Maybe it's three days in a row. I just did that
37:01
with a group in May, kind of like a rapid fire
37:03
end of the year. Sometimes it's once a month
37:06
or every other week or whatever the cadence might
37:09
be. And what I think is really important about
37:12
that, particularly as we've shifted to sometimes
37:15
more of a hybrid model in different instances,
37:18
is that you're still getting a level of consistency.
37:21
and you know that there's this pathway that you're
37:24
following as opposed to something where there's
37:27
no maybe ongoing support or follow up. And there's
37:30
different ways to do that. I worked with a group
37:33
virtually in New York this spring where we did
37:36
a 60, kind of 30 model for our 90 minutes together.
37:41
And those 30 minutes was just Q &A at the end,
37:44
right? Like we still did our try it out and a
37:46
workshop piece. We really dedicated time for
37:50
questions, which can be tough with some groups.
37:52
Not everyone is primed for questions. But when
37:55
you have a group that's built that into some
37:58
of their professional learning culture, it is
38:00
a really great way to meet people where they're
38:03
at, to learn about pain points that someone might
38:06
not have articulated in other sessions. And that's
38:11
been a fun model to incorporate a bit more of
38:14
like a Q &A office hours piece. But for most
38:18
of what I do, I try to make sure we have time
38:22
to get into a breakout room. to try some things
38:24
out. And one big piece that's pretty consistent
38:28
with the virtual work that I do is having some
38:33
type of a living document that goes on after.
38:37
We've spent our time together. So I typically
38:40
will use Padlet. I've always been a fan of that
38:43
tool, and it works very well for big and small
38:48
groups. But I will prime it with some of my own
38:51
content to get us started. And then people participate
38:55
there instead of the Zoom chat. That's hard to
38:58
find later. And that way, they can go in. They
39:02
can participate. I can still moderate it. I never
39:04
really have big issues. But it's always nice
39:06
to know you have that. I freeze the padlets usually
39:09
at the end. That way no one can get in there
39:12
later. They have got a question. I keep my email
39:15
right at the very top so they know exactly how
39:17
to contact me in case there's a link that's not
39:20
working or I forgot to add or something like
39:23
that. So it checks a lot of boxes for them. In
39:27
order to kind of keep the learning going and
39:30
and that's probably one of my biggest kind of
39:32
tips is to have Something that everyone can access
39:35
quickly and easily with you know your contact
39:38
info Snuck in there somewhere for them to reach
39:41
out if they've got a another question You know,
39:44
I think to build off of that another great way
39:47
I think to keep the learning going to use your
39:49
words there It is having a podcast and I know
39:54
You host your own podcast to the Easy Ed Tech
39:59
podcast where you highlight tools and you highlight
40:03
stories. Has there been a recent guest or theme
40:07
perhaps that you found kind of inspiring? Yeah,
40:11
I mean it's been really fun to have a wide variety
40:14
of educators on the podcast who are sharing things
40:17
that are specific to their geography or specific
40:21
to their learning environment and often times
40:25
even if they have something that might seem really
40:28
specific on the surface. There's just so many
40:32
ways for other people to go and run with it.
40:35
So I just had Eric Walters on the podcast to
40:39
talk about a course that he's running around
40:42
creativity and ethics in AI. He works at a school
40:48
He's a fellow Apple Distinguished Educator. He
40:50
works at a school. That's all high school students.
40:54
And he created a live course and then something
40:57
that people can do asynchronously if they're
40:59
just curious that he's launching widely. I don't
41:03
know that we use the word MOOC anymore or as
41:06
frequently, but just an open course for people
41:10
to jump into. And so what I loved about that
41:12
conversation was just this idea of how he was
41:17
leading. his students through handling some of
41:21
the ethical questions around AI. So even though
41:24
someone might not be able to have a full year
41:27
course like he talked about, or even a semester
41:30
course, they can still listen in and grab a couple
41:35
of those sentence starters and bring them back.
41:38
So again, wanting to make things actionable,
41:41
having some fun storytelling that goes along
41:44
with it. So I think that's been That's been a
41:47
good one, particularly with the AI of it all,
41:51
if you will. I do a combo of solo episodes. I
41:56
do a combo of interview episodes. So there's
42:00
a little bit. for everyone in terms of getting
42:03
maybe some seasonal content or a quick listicle
42:07
of ideas for me, and then more of the storytelling
42:10
when I get a chance to chat with someone who
42:13
is doing something that I think other people
42:15
would be curious about too. Yeah, and that's
42:19
actually a good segue to, as you mentioned, Eric
42:24
working with students and I wanted to talk a
42:27
little bit about student agency. So the student
42:31
created content has been a big theme of your
42:34
recent work. And so what I'm wondering is how
42:37
can educators empower students to take more ownership
42:41
of their learning? I think that AI is becoming.
42:46
a bit more of a force or a catalyst for that,
42:50
but even just with your time in EdTech and all
42:54
the things that the ideas that you've gathered
42:56
and shared with others, what would you say that
42:59
educators could do immediately to allow their
43:03
students to take more ownership in their classroom
43:05
when they're creating things with tech? It doesn't
43:08
have to be AI, though we know that's a huge topic,
43:11
but what would you say to a question like that?
43:14
Yeah, I mean, we hear student choice a lot as
43:18
almost this buzzword of like, kids need choices,
43:21
right? Or it gives them more ownership of their
43:23
learning. And that's great to hear, but we need
43:26
to act on it. And it can be intimidating when
43:28
it comes to, you know, using different tech tools
43:32
and like, how could I have kids use three different
43:35
tools in my classroom? And like, someone's gonna
43:37
make a podcast and someone's gonna make a video
43:40
and someone's gonna do an infographic. Like,
43:42
that's tough to manage. for someone who is building
43:46
their confidence with classroom management, even
43:49
if they are super techie, or with technology.
43:53
So I mean, it's important to honor the reality
43:56
of how tricky that can be. And when it comes
44:00
to student projects, that's where I come back
44:03
to some of those open -ended creation tools I
44:06
mentioned before. We don't have to necessarily
44:09
give everyone a different type of output all
44:12
the time, although I love that if it's something
44:15
that someone can manage effectively. You might
44:18
just be choosing a tool that gives kids choice
44:22
within it, right? So Book Creator, like I mentioned
44:25
before, I was working with a group of third graders
44:28
in Hawaii like two springs ago, and I shared
44:31
with them just like, here's... a couple pages
44:34
I made in Book Creator. I put in some of the
44:37
things I'm curious about. They were getting ready
44:39
to kick off a inquiry unit. And you can now decide
44:44
how you want to capture things you're curious
44:47
about. kept it pretty wide for them. And some
44:52
kids snapped pictures, some kids used their voice,
44:56
some were much more comfortable typing. And at
44:58
the end of the 30 minutes we had together, everyone
45:03
had some pages with things they wanted to learn
45:05
more about, but it all looked a lot different.
45:09
And a lot different in terms of their output,
45:11
but it accomplished the same goal. If I had a
45:14
checklist that said, Did the students share three
45:18
things they're curious about? I could say that
45:21
yes, right, for everyone, even though the way
45:23
they did that was different. So when it comes
45:26
to thinking about creativity in the classroom,
45:30
it can absolutely go right in a. in a lot of
45:33
different directions. If you're working with
45:35
secondary students who are curious and capable
45:39
of finding YouTube tutorials for a tool you've
45:42
never heard of and you're having great check
45:45
-ins to make sure they're moving along with their
45:47
progress and there's no big surprises at the
45:49
end, like amazing. Maybe they're using GarageBand
45:52
to make a project even if you don't know all
45:54
the ins and outs of that tool. But if you want
45:57
to be side by side with some support or a group,
46:01
right, that might be the better fit, keeping
46:03
someone, keeping a group in a tool that has a
46:06
lot of options built into it. Yeah, and I think
46:08
that's a great point, too, is that you don't
46:11
have to necessarily bite off more than you can
46:14
chew and have, you know, some students submitting
46:17
a presentation and some submitting a podcast
46:19
and that type of thing. I like what you said
46:22
just about allowing them to have their voice
46:24
within what, you know, you can establish the
46:27
end product, but there's plenty of room for student
46:29
voice within that. framework. Yeah, absolutely.
46:33
Absolutely. Well, Monica, we're kind of coming
46:36
up here near the end of our time here. You know,
46:39
can you give us a sense of what's what's next
46:42
for you? Do you have any big projects rolling
46:44
out a book perhaps or conference appearances
46:47
that you'd like to shout out and share? Yeah,
46:50
so I have something new coming out from ASCD
46:54
that is still in the don't talk about it yet
46:57
mode, but will be available this summer. So if
47:01
anyone's following along with me on Instagram
47:05
or on my newsletter, you'll hear about it for
47:08
sure, but I can't talk about it just yet, but
47:10
really excited to have something a little different.
47:13
from a publisher that I've worked with for a
47:16
long time now for books and quick reference guides.
47:19
So that's one big thing or small thing, I should
47:22
say. It's a little bit of a hint that's coming.
47:25
And then over this summer, I'm doing a lot of
47:29
virtual professional development after a busy
47:31
kind of on the road. And yeah, just excited to
47:35
connect with folks in lots of different spaces,
47:38
which, you know, the zoom of it all makes it
47:40
easier than ever to do. And as far as like your
47:44
socials and everything, where can we direct listeners
47:47
to everything that you have going on with your
47:50
podcast, your website, any socials that you'd
47:53
like to share? Yeah, everything is class tech
47:57
tips. whether that's, you know, Instagram, Pinterest,
48:01
you name it, and it's classtechtips .com. You
48:05
can find the podcast right there. If you've got
48:08
a favorite podcast player, you can just type
48:12
in Easy Ed Tech Podcast or Monica Burns and you'll
48:16
find it there. And same thing goes for all the
48:19
books. I've got them linked out on my website.
48:22
If you go to Amazon and you type in Monica Burns,
48:25
there's two of us. The other Monica Burns writes
48:27
very different types of books. So I think you'll
48:30
know exactly which ones are mine right away.
48:34
Great. And we'll make sure to share everything
48:37
too in the descriptions to our podcast and to
48:41
the YouTube video as well. Once that comes out,
48:45
we'll have those available for listeners below.
48:48
So Monica, thanks again for joining us. We really
48:51
appreciate your time and we hope you... have
48:55
a lot of success with your undisclosed upcoming
48:59
release. Thanks again. We really appreciate it.
49:03
Thank you. Yes, thank you. Thanks for listening
49:07
to Integrate This. Want to take your learning
49:09
further? Head over to our YouTube channel for
49:12
quick tutorials, deep dives, and more ed tech
49:15
tips you can use right away. Don't forget to
49:18
subscribe and catch new podcast episodes every
49:21
Thursday on Apple, Spotify or wherever you get
49:25
your podcasts. Until next time, keep exploring,
49:29
keep innovating and keep integrating this.