Latest / Equine Assisted World with Rupert Isaacson / Creating New Stories Together: Horses, Grief, Theater & Belonging with Betsy Kahl | EP 47

Transcript

Creating New Stories Together: Horses, Grief, Theater & Belonging with Betsy Kahl | EP 47 · Equine Assisted World with Rupert Isaacson

• 0:00
  Rupert Isaacson: Welcome to Equine Assisted World.
• 0:02
  I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson, New York Times best selling
• 0:05
  author of The Horse Boy, The Long Ride Home, and The Healing Land.
• 0:08
  Before I jump in with today's guest, I just want to say a huge
• 0:12
  thank you to you, our audience, for helping to make this happen.
• 0:15
  I have a request.
• 0:16
  If you like what we do, please like, subscribe, tell a friend.
• 0:22
  It really helps us get this work done.
• 0:24
  As you might know from my books, I'm an autism dad.
• 0:27
  And over the last 20 years, we've developed several
• 0:31
  equine assisted, neuroscience backed certification programs.
• 0:35
  If you'd like to find out more about them, go to newtrailslearning.
• 0:40
  com.
• 0:41
  So without further ado, let's meet today's guest.
• 0:44
  Welcome back to Equine Assisted World, Betsy.
• 0:47
  Carl, who is joining me today, is an old, old, old compadre.
• 0:54
  We used to run new trails together our ranch in Texas, and we couldn't
• 1:02
  have done it without Betsy.
• 1:03
  Betsy was
• 1:07
  the mainstay, the rudder, the lifeblood, the, you know, all the good things.
• 1:15
  And one of the reasons why Betsy was all these things was not just her
• 1:21
  knowledge of horses, but the fact that she had come a really interesting path
• 1:29
  through path, what used to be nara.
• 1:33
  She's a senior path instructor, which.
• 1:36
  Was interesting for us because people normally see horse boy as the sort of
• 1:42
  antithesis the opposite of path, and in some ways that's not unfounded.
• 1:48
  And at the same time as working with us, she continued to work at the local large
• 1:56
  path center in Austin, Texas, not just as a service provider, but also as a
• 2:04
  senior instructor in the PATH trainings.
• 2:07
  So it was very interesting that she really bridged that gap.
• 2:11
  She's also very accomplished, dressage rider and trainer
• 2:14
  and all round horse person.
• 2:17
  So if you look up the word awesome in the dictionary you actually find a picture
• 2:22
  of Betsy next to that next to that word.
• 2:25
  So, Betsy, thanks for coming on.
• 2:27
  You now live in Bend, Oregon doing interesting things in the Rockies.
• 2:32
  Thanks for coming on the show.
• 2:33
  I, I want to delve into your knowledge of where you feel equine
• 2:40
  assisted work was when you first got into it, where you feel it is now
• 2:45
  and where you would like it to go.
• 2:48
  So over to you.
• 2:51
  Betsy Kahl: Well, thank you.
• 2:52
  Yeah, it's been a fun journey the time I've shared with you and the
• 2:56
  time we had in Texas together.
• 2:58
  And yeah, for, for PATH people who may be listening.
• 3:02
  I'm an advanced therapeutic writing instructor with the CTRI certification
• 3:07
  as well, so we've been going through quite a lot of acronyms and other
• 3:11
  things in the, in the industry.
• 3:14
  But yes so for those who care about letters after names,
• 3:18
  that's what it would be.
• 3:19
  And I believe I was certified, oh, lordy, back in like 2007.
• 3:31
  2006.
• 3:32
  2006.
• 3:32
  Sounds about right.
• 3:34
  And so it's been quite some time that I've, I've carried that.
• 3:38
  Certification and worked in and out and in and out of the
• 3:42
  industry as people often do.
• 3:44
  So I'm not sure where, how much you want to know or where you wanna
• 3:49
  start with any of that, but I could,
• 3:50
  Rupert Isaacson: I think what I'd like you to do is shoot from the hip.
• 3:53
  Okay.
• 3:53
  You, you, because you have a really good overview of
• 4:00
  what's good about each system where they probably have more in common
• 4:08
  than they might think they do.
• 4:09
  Mm-hmm.
• 4:12
  And you yourself have had to tread the line of melding, you know, the different
• 4:18
  methodologies together, whether it was working, you know, in a path context,
• 4:26
  but informed by horse, boys say, or tacking, which you also helped me.
• 4:32
  Develop, which we should go into.
• 4:34
  And the other way around, you know, working in horse Boy and, but informed by,
• 4:44
  I guess, the orthodoxy of the mainstream as, as well as being on the edge.
• 4:49
  It, it's a really interesting, I, I, I dunno, anyone else really who's tro Yeah.
• 4:53
  That path, you know, so I, I, I think it's really over to you.
• 4:57
  I, I'd like you to sort of fire Okay.
• 5:00
  Talk about what was good, what was bad, what you'd like to see change,
• 5:03
  what you'd like to develop more of.
• 5:06
  Just go.
• 5:06
  Betsy Kahl: Mm-hmm.
• 5:07
  Okay.
• 5:08
  Well, one thing that came to mind as you were talking was, obviously
• 5:12
  I didn't well, not obviously but I didn't just, you know, one day be
• 5:16
  like, oh, I wanna be a path instructor.
• 5:18
  So I was very fortunate growing up to, we had a a in the public
• 5:24
  park system near where I lived.
• 5:27
  There was a riding facility that was part of a nonprofit park system
• 5:32
  and offered riding lessons, boarding and also therapeutic riding.
• 5:37
  So, I grew up riding there, starting around age 12.
• 5:41
  And so the horses that I learned to ride on were all
• 5:46
  exceptionally talented, very kind.
• 5:49
  Some, maybe not as kind, but all just generous horses that could
• 5:53
  walk, trot, canner, and jump.
• 5:55
  And these were the horses that would one day a week also work
• 5:58
  in adaptive riding as well.
• 6:00
  When they offered it.
• 6:01
  So I think even just growing up there and seeing it was sort of a normal
• 6:12
  thing that your horses that would work in therapeutic programs, could also
• 6:16
  teach, could also compete in local shows, could also do all of the things.
• 6:20
  Right.
• 6:21
  And yeah, it
• 6:21
  Rupert Isaacson: wasn't niche from the get go.
• 6:23
  Betsy Kahl: No, no.
• 6:24
  And it was a thing that as I've worked in different programs and
• 6:29
  different places and kind of traveled from I've taught from New Hampshire
• 6:34
  to Ohio, Texas, and now Oregon.
• 6:38
  So I mean, as you kind of move across the country you start
• 6:41
  to see different things of.
• 6:43
  What is and is not sort of the assumed normal.
• 6:47
  And and so I started to realize like, oh, well this is unique.
• 6:50
  You know what?
• 6:51
  Valley riding, which is still hands down, I say one of the best places to learn.
• 6:55
  And so Valley
• 6:56
  Rupert Isaacson: Riding,
• 6:56
  Betsy Kahl: valley Riding Incorporated.
• 6:58
  Yeah.
• 6:59
  It's run by Valley
• 6:59
  Rupert Isaacson: Riding Incorporated in Cleveland, Ohio.
• 7:02
  Betsy Kahl: Yeah.
• 7:02
  Yeah.
• 7:03
  Anyone who's looking to learn to ride or if you have kids that wanna ride go there.
• 7:07
  Bus horses.
• 7:08
  Okay.
• 7:08
  Actually one horse that when I was teaching there.
• 7:11
  Is still, I found him for the program and he's still in the program,
• 7:15
  this little pony named bumper.
• 7:16
  I mean, gotta love him.
• 7:18
  So, and bumper was Mr.
• 7:20
  Jack of all trades too, you know, walk, trot, can or JUMP
• 7:23
  did Adaptive, did all the things.
• 7:25
  And I apparently still is doing all those things.
• 7:28
  So, so yeah, it was, it was just very normal to, to believe
• 7:33
  a horse could do all of that.
• 7:34
  And not every horse wanted to work in the adaptive program or,
• 7:38
  but that was fine too, right?
• 7:40
  They all had a place, they all had their purpose.
• 7:42
  And so that I think was where that.
• 7:49
  Idea of like, yeah, a horse is not limited.
• 7:52
  Like
• 7:52
  Rupert Isaacson: there
• 7:53
  Betsy Kahl: actually will, if you offer the right support and the right
• 7:57
  timing, like will want to show up.
• 8:00
  They want to work and feel good about their jobs and so
• 8:05
  Rupert Isaacson: yeah, they enjoy variety like a human does,
• 8:06
  Betsy Kahl: basically.
• 8:07
  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 8:08
  You know, and again, because it was in a public park system, you know, there
• 8:11
  were trails so you could easily just go out from the arena down the trail.
• 8:16
  You know, you had all, all the bonuses that come with a public park system,
• 8:21
  like, you know, you never knew what would be around the corner sometimes or
• 8:25
  Rupert Isaacson: would be
• 8:26
  Betsy Kahl: hanging over the fence.
• 8:27
  But but yeah, it was, it was lovely.
• 8:29
  And so.
• 8:32
  So that's where I first encountered adaptive writing too, is when they
• 8:35
  started offering that program.
• 8:36
  I started volunteering 'cause I was probably, you know, 14 is the age where
• 8:40
  path allows you to start to volunteer.
• 8:43
  And and that's how I became exposed to it and always enjoyed it, but didn't
• 8:50
  go after, pursue that in college.
• 8:52
  So there was a brief, so I guess from like 12 to 18 I did nothing but eat, sleep,
• 8:57
  breathe horses while maintaining grades.
• 9:00
  So I could continue doing that.
• 9:01
  And then went off to college, was out of horses for a while and I
• 9:06
  think probably started getting back into it around like 24 ish and just
• 9:15
  go back into taking riding lessons.
• 9:16
  And then I went, decided I wanted to pursue getting certified.
• 9:20
  And so I went to get certified at a place in New Hampshire.
• 9:23
  They did like a three month instructor intensive, I suppose.
• 9:29
  And also a place though where their horses worked in summer camps, would
• 9:33
  walk, trot, can, or jump, you know.
• 9:36
  So they were also horses that in addition to doing adaptive
• 9:40
  riding, could do a variety of other programming and so yeah, was at
• 9:45
  horsepower in Temple, New Hampshire.
• 9:48
  And that's where I found my current horse.
• 9:50
  One of my current horse is Stewart.
• 9:52
  He was there as a I don't even know what sail, sail horse.
• 9:57
  So I took him on as my training project while I was getting certified.
• 10:00
  'cause that was something their program had you do as well was
• 10:03
  like not just go through the.
• 10:07
  Technical aspect of teaching and how you're supposed to structure a class
• 10:12
  and all the, you know, safety standards that are very important as well.
• 10:17
  But in addition to that, they wanted to make sure that you were teaching
• 10:22
  riding lessons to, at least for me, I was teaching lessons to the public
• 10:27
  and also had your horse training project too, so that, you know,
• 10:31
  depending on what you could offer, that you were bringing a horse along.
• 10:33
  So Stewart was my, my training project that ended up becoming my forever project.
• 10:41
  So, so, so I think, yeah, I, yeah, there might be some things in there.
• 10:48
  You wanna,
• 10:48
  Rupert Isaacson: well, the, the, the, I think there's
• 10:49
  something that we should just.
• 10:50
  Quickly cover, which is that what you did at college?
• 10:53
  So you're a social worker?
• 10:55
  Betsy Kahl: Well, not in college.
• 10:57
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 10:57
  Right.
• 10:57
  So,
• 10:58
  Betsy Kahl: so I had a Yeah.
• 11:00
  But I currently am a social worker and Yeah.
• 11:03
  Which I think massively
• 11:04
  Rupert Isaacson: informs your equine assisted stuff.
• 11:06
  So just talk through what you did at college and how you became a
• 11:08
  social worker, and then how that informed what you did with horses.
• 11:14
  Betsy Kahl: Yeah.
• 11:14
  In college, oh, I thought I wanted to do pre veterinary medicine.
• 11:20
  I quickly realized that was not for me.
• 11:24
  Perhaps I was not up for the academic rigor, we can put it that way.
• 11:28
  And then did a semester in business and then changed to English and
• 11:33
  ended up with a degree in English.
• 11:35
  And so post-college, I just dabbled around in theater arts for about a year.
• 11:45
  Cleaned horse stalls for part of that time too, and a year after my mom said,
• 11:49
  what are you doing with your life?
• 11:51
  You need to get, get it together.
• 11:53
  Sounds
• 11:54
  Rupert Isaacson: like fun to me.
• 11:54
  I dunno.
• 11:55
  Betsy Kahl: Yeah, it was fun.
• 11:56
  You know, I, I love the theater arts and has, that's been a huge, it's
• 12:03
  had a very healing place in my life.
• 12:07
  Mm-hmm.
• 12:08
  And and so, so yeah.
• 12:10
  But my mom was concerned that I would just be doing shows and
• 12:15
  serving tables and cleaning stalls.
• 12:17
  And so she's like, what are you gonna do?
• 12:20
  And I didn't know what one did with the degree in English besides perhaps teach.
• 12:24
  And so I then entered a Master's in Secondary Education program.
• 12:29
  I was in that for about.
• 12:31
  Eight months of the year that would it take to complete before I dropped
• 12:35
  out for a variety of reasons.
• 12:38
  But then then yeah, I was back into just theater, picking up
• 12:43
  random teaching theater arts jobs.
• 12:46
  Eventually that led to the Great Lakes Theater Festival School
• 12:51
  Actor Teacher Residency program.
• 12:54
  So for two years I traveled with another actor and we taught Shakespeare
• 12:58
  in the schools and stage combat and a bunch of other things, as well
• 13:02
  as other classic theater pieces.
• 13:04
  And then that after that was when I was like, what do I wanna really do now?
• 13:12
  And that's when I went and trained to be a therapeutic riding instructor,
• 13:17
  was certified at the advanced level after that program in New Hampshire.
• 13:22
  Got my first job at a path center with my first horse was hemorrhaging money paying
• 13:28
  for board and trying to survive on that.
• 13:31
  Some other gigs came my way.
• 13:37
  I got a three week stint on a cruise ship being a magician's assistant.
• 13:42
  And then another three weeks doing a opening act for a show in Vegas.
• 13:49
  And so during that time, like I lost that first job at the Path Center
• 13:55
  due to some conflicts, but while I was on the cruise ship, got the job
• 13:58
  offer to become the riding instructor at Valley Ridings Breville stables.
• 14:05
  So did that.
• 14:06
  So then finally got a full-time job where I could afford to live, have my
• 14:11
  horse, and was teaching public riding lessons and volunteer coordinating
• 14:15
  for their therapeutic riding.
• 14:17
  And then about 2, 2, 3 years into that was when I started to
• 14:23
  question, okay, what is next?
• 14:26
  And realizing that a lot of what I was seeing in adaptive writing to ended up
• 14:30
  being more social, emotional, behavioral health, and as well as showing up
• 14:38
  sometimes in my public writing lessons too and in different degrees and just working.
• 14:47
  Being more supportive for people who were bringing their own
• 14:49
  anxieties or things to, to lessons.
• 14:52
  And you know, the mental health field was not too foreign to me.
• 14:56
  My dad was a psychiatrist, so it's sort of something that I had always been aware
• 15:00
  of, but not necessarily social work.
• 15:03
  And so I wasn't sure what I wanted to do, but knew something mental healthy.
• 15:11
  I went to volunteer at an organization called The Gathering Place in Cleveland,
• 15:17
  which offers, free support for individuals, families, and friends who
• 15:23
  whose lives have been touched by cancer.
• 15:25
  'cause that's something that's very important to me.
• 15:28
  And at that volunteer interview, ended up getting me a job as
• 15:32
  their animal camp coordinator.
• 15:33
  They were doing a summer camp where they partner with a
• 15:36
  variety of different animals.
• 15:38
  One week being horse week, but other weeks being different animals
• 15:42
  from puppies to kittens to wild animals through the natural history,
• 15:47
  rehabilitate, rehabilitation.
• 15:50
  And so that program was run by a social worker and a child life specialist.
• 15:57
  I think also, oh man, was she also a social worker?
• 16:01
  I'm not sure.
• 16:01
  But but anyways, those two women were phenomenally impactful in this
• 16:09
  idea of, wow, okay, we can take.
• 16:12
  Mental health, but not make it a drudgery, not drudgery is a strong word.
• 16:19
  Make it, make it enjoyable.
• 16:20
  Right.
• 16:20
  Not make it feel so clinical.
• 16:23
  Right.
• 16:24
  And that we can do it in a variety of environments and that we can trust
• 16:29
  that if we set up a supportive space with, you know, supportive adults,
• 16:41
  that and these novel experiences, kids will be able to start to, you
• 16:47
  know, treat themselves in a way.
• 16:48
  You kind of put all the raw materials out there and and how, how wonderfully healing
• 16:55
  that could be and and, and doing it in a way that promoted not just yes, you can.
• 17:04
  Process what it's like to be a kid whose life has been touched
• 17:07
  by cancer, who has had a family member's lives touched by cancer.
• 17:12
  You can also while doing that, build mastery in another area, right?
• 17:16
  So they were learning.
• 17:19
  Some pretty cool things they could do to support these animals
• 17:24
  and develop that relationship.
• 17:26
  And then at the end, you know, of each week there would be a family
• 17:30
  day where they could showcase what they've learned, right.
• 17:34
  And and really be seen as the expert on something.
• 17:38
  And so, so yeah, that job really got me jazzed about the idea of
• 17:44
  combining mental health with animal assisted therapies or activities.
• 17:49
  And so yeah, then I went and became a social worker.
• 17:53
  And then
• 17:54
  Rupert Isaacson: why social worker though?
• 17:56
  Betsy Kahl: Yeah,
• 17:57
  Rupert Isaacson: that's quite, that's quite niche.
• 17:59
  Like, there, there were other, other, you could have become a psychologist.
• 18:02
  You could have become a psychotherapist.
• 18:03
  You could have, you know, there are other avenues you could have gone.
• 18:07
  And a lot of people within the sort of equine assisted world do.
• 18:11
  Why social
• 18:13
  Betsy Kahl: work?
• 18:13
  I.
• 18:15
  Went and talked to different department heads at Cleveland State University
• 18:20
  and tried to get a feel of what the different perspectives were.
• 18:23
  And this is at least my understanding on it.
• 18:26
  It's not to say that's the only way to look at it or that it's the right
• 18:28
  way to look at it, but you know, when I knew I didn't wanna do a doctorate,
• 18:34
  you know, so that was kind of like, for me, it was like, okay, I wasn't going
• 18:38
  to go try to do the PhD in psychology.
• 18:41
  Certainly not medical school.
• 18:43
  So, so then it was what can you have a master's degree in and still
• 18:46
  practice clinically, which took it to counseling or social work.
• 18:50
  And I, for my pers to feel on it, was that counseling was going to be more on
• 19:00
  I more on yeah.
• 19:02
  Like kind of analyzing and really.
• 19:04
  Like the inner part of the per or sort of siloed on the person.
• 19:09
  I'm not saying that's the way it always is but social work really looked at
• 19:12
  like, okay, how does this person interact with systems in their environment?
• 19:16
  Right.
• 19:16
  And, and I liked that idea of just felt less pathologizing even
• 19:24
  though you're still diagnosing.
• 19:26
  But, and also the people who I met again through animal camp being social
• 19:31
  workers, I really respected and valued how they seemed to work and be able
• 19:40
  to balance, you know, that mental health piece, but also figuring out.
• 19:47
  How you can adapt and modify environments and systems and so, so
• 19:51
  yeah, it was never just about like that person who's having a problem.
• 19:54
  It was like really looking at through a wider lens.
• 19:57
  And, and I think that's a little bit more of an orientation that social work
• 20:01
  tends to draw from is again, like, you know, looking through systems, looking
• 20:06
  at the person in relation to their environment, looking at various ways you
• 20:10
  can create change that can end up being supportive, not just, you know, trying
• 20:16
  to get the person to change themselves.
• 20:19
  And so, so that's, that's where I grab why I gravitated towards it.
• 20:25
  And yeah, so then outta grad school, I got my first job at a larger
• 20:33
  community mental health center.
• 20:35
  And, they contracted with schools.
• 20:37
  So I was like a traveling school-based therapist as
• 20:40
  well as doing home-based work.
• 20:42
  And one of the schools I ended up being placed at was a school that specialized
• 20:49
  in providing like an alternative education setting for kids who were not
• 20:53
  thriving in more traditional settings.
• 20:56
  And many of these children were diagnosed with autism amongst other things.
• 21:00
  And they ended up offering me, instead of contracting with the agency, they
• 21:05
  offered me a full-time job to come and be their school-based therapist.
• 21:08
  So I ended up doing that for about three years and then moved to Texas.
• 21:14
  So, so anyways, right from going to grad school and social working and starting
• 21:21
  trying to get my clinical hours, there wasn't a lot of, you know, I, I left
• 21:25
  the university with my graduate degree thinking, okay, I'm gonna start making
• 21:29
  like animal camps all over the world.
• 21:31
  Like, but, or all over this area.
• 21:34
  But there wasn't really like a job for that.
• 21:36
  And so you're just kind of getting your clinical work in whichever way you can.
• 21:41
  You're at supervision hours.
• 21:42
  So there were not a ton of animal opportunities.
• 21:46
  But thankfully once I started working at that school, I was
• 21:50
  allowed to sort of create some stuff.
• 21:51
  So while I couldn't bring horses to the classroom we ended up
• 21:55
  incorporating Shakespeare program.
• 21:57
  So I had the actor teacher friends from my old job.
• 22:01
  We worked and brought a theater arts residency week there.
• 22:05
  And that was really, really awesome to see how Shakespeare could be performed as well
• 22:10
  as other classic pieces with the variety of, we had, you know, ages, I think, ooh.
• 22:17
  Four to like 21, 22 at that school.
• 22:22
  And some speaking, some or yeah, speaking some non-speaking students
• 22:27
  and how we could, yeah, how theater was something that no matter what, how
• 22:33
  you communicated you could perform and how, how timeless those stories were.
• 22:37
  That was super cool.
• 22:39
  And then we also did a therapy dog program, so different people who had
• 22:45
  therapy dogs came and we did like a.
• 22:49
  Biweekly, I think eight session therapy dog thing, which worked out so well.
• 22:53
  Then I ended up adopting my golden retriever and getting him
• 22:57
  certified as a therapy dog, and he became the school therapy dog.
• 23:00
  So I don't, lots of different weird things, but then when I moved to
• 23:05
  Texas, that was what I told myself.
• 23:07
  I was like, okay, now I can get back into trying to meld
• 23:09
  horses with, with social work.
• 23:13
  I'm back.
• 23:17
  Rupert Isaacson: It's interesting.
• 23:19
  I met you I remember actually at this dressage barn.
• 23:23
  Mm-hmm.
• 23:24
  White fences in Mainor, Texas, which was the next town on from Elgin, Texas, where
• 23:30
  we were based and we were there for.
• 23:34
  I can't remember if we were doing taking a,
• 23:37
  Betsy Kahl: I think you had Christophe Hess there as a C.
• 23:40
  That's right.
• 23:40
  Rupert Isaacson: That's right.
• 23:41
  We brought Christophe Hess.
• 23:43
  Betsy Kahl: Mm-hmm.
• 23:43
  Who,
• 23:44
  Rupert Isaacson: for those listeners who don't know who Christophe Hess is
• 23:47
  or was, he was at that time the head of education for the fn, which is the
• 23:53
  German equivalent of the USEF or the British Horse Society or whatever.
• 24:00
  And we brought him over for a clinic.
• 24:02
  That's right.
• 24:03
  And he, we organized for him to come over to the barn where you
• 24:08
  were boarding your horse, I think.
• 24:11
  And I ran into you and I had one of those gut feelings.
• 24:17
  I was like, oh, this person is one of those people that can
• 24:21
  like, do the lot whether it's on the horse side or the human side.
• 24:25
  And I remember we had this initial conversation, where I sort of said,
• 24:30
  would you kind of like to come check out the interesting shit that we do?
• 24:35
  And you kind of went, well, maybe, you know, and then, yeah, that's
• 24:38
  Betsy Kahl: my classic response.
• 24:40
  Rupert Isaacson: And then you, even when
• 24:42
  Betsy Kahl: Cody proposed to me, I was like,
• 24:46
  Rupert Isaacson: Cody, Cody again.
• 24:47
  FE listeners that, dunno, Betsy is, is her husband.
• 24:49
  Yeah.
• 24:50
  Yeah, I, I could see that.
• 24:52
  Yeah.
• 24:53
  But then you came out and you kind of looked around and went, yeah.
• 24:56
  Yeah.
• 24:56
  Okay.
• 24:57
  And next thing I knew you are running our program.
• 25:00
  The, I remember, I remember recognizing this kind of versatility in you,
• 25:09
  which was sort of a gut feeling.
• 25:10
  'cause I didn't know your background at that point.
• 25:12
  I just saw that you.
• 25:16
  Rode really well and had this kind of open heart and inquiring mind.
• 25:21
  And then I subsequently found out about your, you know, therapeutic and social
• 25:27
  work background before we get to how you kind of melded the Orthodox of the
• 25:35
  Unorthodox, which is path with Horse Boy.
• 25:39
  And then out of that helped us to build Athena, which is now called, which
• 25:46
  we'll talk about why the name changed.
• 25:49
  Before we go there, I'm interested in your take on theater arts.
• 25:55
  Hmm.
• 25:57
  Why is this kind of crucial?
• 26:02
  Why is this so good to have a background in theater arts if you're going to deal
• 26:06
  with equine assisted stuff, and then you, you, you subsequently went from there
• 26:12
  talking about Shakespeare for people who don't speak, which is counterintuitive
• 26:18
  because Shakespeare's all about language.
• 26:20
  So just talk to us a little bit about that before we go to the next stage.
• 26:27
  Betsy Kahl: Okay.
• 26:28
  So I think the first one was theater arts and how it can be
• 26:31
  helpful for people in mm-hmm.
• 26:33
  Equine work.
• 26:36
  I, well, I don't know.
• 26:38
  I guess I've never thought about how that's informed my equine
• 26:42
  work as much, but I think one of the ways it could be helpful is
• 26:50
  that it's.
• 26:53
  It's really about listening and responding, if any, and, and
• 26:57
  Rupert Isaacson: okay.
• 26:59
  Betsy Kahl: To some degree, right?
• 27:00
  So if you're doing any type of performance, so much of it is
• 27:04
  well being in the moment, right?
• 27:07
  And, trying to truly understand what whoever you're sharing the
• 27:11
  stage with or whatever even is happening audience wise, right?
• 27:14
  Like
• 27:15
  Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
• 27:15
  Betsy Kahl: You know, my theater career has been, their theatrical
• 27:20
  stuff has been from, from Yeah.
• 27:22
  Doing, you know, some stuff I'd like to forget in various youth theaters too.
• 27:28
  Not I like to forget, but like, things that, like if it, someone would
• 27:31
  say like, oh, we found this clip.
• 27:32
  I'd be like, oh lord,
• 27:34
  Rupert Isaacson: let's call it a learning curve.
• 27:35
  Yeah,
• 27:35
  Betsy Kahl: yeah, yeah.
• 27:36
  Not because I feel like the performance event, but like,
• 27:38
  I'm talking like I don't know.
• 27:40
  We did like a, I, my senior in high school, I was in the tine rabbit.
• 27:43
  I was one of the cool bunnies, so I'm like dressed in this giant rabbit
• 27:46
  costume, like singing the funny bunny rag and hopping around, and I thought
• 27:50
  it was like the coolest thing ever.
• 27:52
  You know?
• 27:52
  How
• 27:52
  Rupert Isaacson: does the funny bunny rag go?
• 27:55
  Betsy Kahl: Do you want the choreography too?
• 27:57
  Yes,
• 27:57
  Rupert Isaacson: please.
• 28:00
  Betsy Kahl: You, yeah.
• 28:00
  Okay.
• 28:01
  Yeah.
• 28:01
  Rupert Isaacson: You can't just put that out there and not do it.
• 28:03
  Yeah.
• 28:03
  Betsy Kahl: Yeah.
• 28:04
  Yeah.
• 28:04
  Okay.
• 28:05
  Well, let me see.
• 28:05
  I don't know if I have enough space.
• 28:07
  I can do it with this camera angle, but, and there's two
• 28:10
  other bunnies with me, right?
• 28:11
  I was, okay,
• 28:13
  Rupert Isaacson: we one on each side.
• 28:13
  Are you the middle bunny?
• 28:15
  Betsy Kahl: Yeah, of course.
• 28:17
  And this again, if you have the video, I might not have it right, but so
• 28:21
  we're telling the vine rabbit how to be a, a real rabbit, you know, and
• 28:27
  it goes just perk your ears up and hear the bead and tell those rabbit
• 28:35
  feet, you can't see my feet too.
• 28:36
  Bounce along and don't be such a drag
• 28:42
  start and never stop.
• 28:43
  Just wind your hopper up and do the funny bunny rag.
• 28:50
  Hey.
• 28:51
  And there's more.
• 28:53
  But I think that's a sample.
• 28:55
  Rupert Isaacson: Now you were absolutely on pitch.
• 29:00
  Oh, on key and on point there.
• 29:02
  Betsy Kahl: Well, as, as you know, the funny bunny rag, so, well, I could have
• 29:06
  just made that up, but, but you know, I think there's just that ability to
• 29:13
  kind of surrender and have fun too.
• 29:15
  Right.
• 29:15
  Because like no one want.
• 29:18
  So, so yeah, doing things like that, working with other human beings to
• 29:24
  tell and create and imagine stories.
• 29:27
  And then also,
• 29:30
  yeah, it requires, you'd have to be present to
• 29:36
  surrender to the emotions that are showing up.
• 29:39
  Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
• 29:39
  Maybe
• 29:40
  Betsy Kahl: not fighting, but moving through them.
• 29:42
  Mm-hmm.
• 29:42
  And I think
• 29:42
  Rupert Isaacson: that's,
• 29:43
  Betsy Kahl: that's what, when I said like, yeah, know theater really saved me
• 29:48
  or healed me, I think that's what it was.
• 29:50
  It was something that, not
• 29:51
  Rupert Isaacson: fighting the emotion, but surrendering to it and moving through it.
• 29:54
  I love that.
• 29:56
  Betsy Kahl: Yeah.
• 29:56
  Thank you.
• 29:58
  And it's, it's a safe container though, right?
• 30:01
  And, and something that I always found weird was sometimes you'd be like, oh,
• 30:08
  it is so brave to be like, to do that or on stage I, that's so courageous.
• 30:14
  And I remember thinking like, I don't, for me, I disagreed 'cause I felt experiencing
• 30:23
  allowing myself to experience emotions and theater felt so much safer than life.
• 30:28
  'cause I knew where the story was going.
• 30:30
  Rupert Isaacson: That is, I think what I was trying to get to, I think
• 30:33
  that, I don't think that, I know that in the experience that I've had with
• 30:37
  Shamanism, for example a shaman takes on a role and they take on the role as the
• 30:44
  healer, but they also take on the role as your suffering and many other roles.
• 30:50
  Yeah.
• 30:50
  You.
• 30:52
  As the person one, as the person going for healing also takes on a role.
• 30:59
  And that these roles are not like negative masking, trying to
• 31:05
  damp down your authentic self.
• 31:08
  It's more like the type of practical masking that you might do, for example,
• 31:13
  to get in camouflage or to actually put a mask on so that someone didn't recognize
• 31:17
  you in a situation where if they did recognize you, you might be in trouble.
• 31:21
  Or let's say you're going to hunt a deer.
• 31:24
  It might not be a terrible idea to put on a disc and, and a pair of antlers.
• 31:28
  Mm-hmm.
• 31:29
  It's all about agency.
• 31:32
  The idea of, of putting on roles.
• 31:35
  I think I've definitely seen this over the years for the
• 31:40
  populations that we work with.
• 31:42
  Mm-hmm.
• 31:43
  When they learn how to do this in.
• 31:48
  Exactly as you said, safe containers, like a show
• 31:53
  or a, a play date or a therapy session.
• 31:56
  I like to call them play dates, you know, where they can then trust
• 32:02
  that the people around them, the facilitators, you, me, will go with it.
• 32:09
  This then translates to a certain confidence that they can go out in the
• 32:13
  world and function even while suffering from imposter syndrome or fear or anxiety
• 32:21
  or all the things that we all suffer from.
• 32:24
  But of course, if you're on the spectrum or going through some
• 32:28
  mental health crisis situation, it's going to be much more acute.
• 32:34
  So I, I love the fact that you.
• 32:38
  Can bring theater arts to that.
• 32:40
  Do you feel that something along the lines of theater, arts, role playing,
• 32:48
  shape shifting should be a part of the training for this kind of work?
• 32:57
  Because, because you're so good at it, right?
• 32:59
  I mean, you've ran our program, but you, you ran our program and
• 33:03
  I watched you, I observed you, and you would just be able to meld
• 33:10
  yourself to not just the individual, but to the groups that came in.
• 33:14
  Mm-hmm.
• 33:15
  And bring out the best in them and get them doing things that they, you know, I
• 33:23
  remember seeing a, a group of kids from
• 33:28
  the
• 33:33
  foster programs.
• 33:38
  In Austin and I observed a bunch of times you being able to get
• 33:47
  through that anger and that hurt and bring them to creativity,
• 33:56
  self-advocacy through playing roles.
• 34:03
  Why isn't this taught?
• 34:04
  Why, why, why?
• 34:05
  Why isn't this, whether it's with horses or whether it's not with
• 34:10
  horses, why isn't this a sort of standard thing in mental health stuff?
• 34:15
  Betsy Kahl: Oh, well, I mean, there are avenues of mental health, I
• 34:18
  suppose, where you lean into that.
• 34:20
  I mean, there's, you know, and there's even some treatment modalities that
• 34:24
  emphasize, you know, the various roles or various parts within a person.
• 34:29
  But but as agree, yeah, but as I as you were talking about like this, and to, to
• 34:34
  tie it back to adaptive or equine assisted services, like in a way you kind of,
• 34:43
  it's, it's almost already there, right?
• 34:45
  The structure, because like when you're studying, you're, you're
• 34:48
  like the instructor in training.
• 34:49
  Like you literally are like labeled or you show up as instructor, what have you.
• 34:55
  Right?
• 34:55
  And so, so I mean, the parts and the performance is almost already there in
• 35:02
  a, you know, even I remember during my the, the women who ran the program, boo.
• 35:08
  Martin, who is, was a big name within the Path community as well as one of
• 35:13
  the founders of equine facilitated mental health, that like offshoot
• 35:16
  little side, not side program, but you know, like they have the, like
• 35:20
  the equine assisted learning, mental health, vaulting, you know, these
• 35:23
  little subsets you can get certified in.
• 35:25
  But Boo was one of the people who kind of pioneered pushing that into the industry.
• 35:30
  And that's why I chose to study with her.
• 35:33
  But I remember her having this thing of being like, you're
• 35:35
  not just teaching, right?
• 35:37
  There are people who are listening.
• 35:38
  There are people who not parents want to hear.
• 35:40
  Like you're, when you're teaching, it's not just to the student.
• 35:44
  Like think of the volunteers, think of the people watching, think
• 35:48
  of who might be coming through.
• 35:49
  And she's like, it, everything is for everyone.
• 35:54
  And, and I don't, and in that made a lot of sense to me of being.
• 36:01
  Maybe it did translate in my brain like, oh, this is, this is, yeah.
• 36:04
  The arena is, is a stage as well.
• 36:07
  And that was, and sometimes the
• 36:09
  Rupert Isaacson: arena is a stage as well.
• 36:11
  Betsy Kahl: Yeah,
• 36:11
  Rupert Isaacson: that's, that's an interesting comment.
• 36:14
  Betsy Kahl: Okay.
• 36:15
  Yeah.
• 36:15
  But I mean, it kind of, if you think about it, because I think
• 36:18
  Rupert Isaacson: you're dead, right?
• 36:19
  Betsy Kahl: Yeah.
• 36:19
  There's people who watch, like even when I'm riding, you know, you
• 36:22
  ride your own horse or working with your own horse, there are always.
• 36:26
  You know, everyone's got a side eye on everybody sometimes at farms.
• 36:30
  But yeah, yeah, what you bring, what you put out there does ripple through and
• 36:36
  and that was even you know, the large program up in Texas that I worked at, it
• 36:41
  was set up like open, very open space, you know, as you kind of have the luxury
• 36:45
  of that and the climate that is Texas.
• 36:47
  But you know, so people walking down aisles could have direct lines
• 36:52
  of sight to what was happening.
• 36:53
  There were chairs set up along the perimeter, right, where people would
• 36:57
  sit you know, literally on the nights I would teach the veteran programs.
• 37:01
  We had our little like Britney Spears mic headsets and what
• 37:05
  you said was getting amplified.
• 37:07
  So why not make it something that could be that a person, whether on the horse or
• 37:14
  sitting in a chair or walking alongside supporting the rider that they could all.
• 37:19
  Get something from it.
• 37:21
  Right.
• 37:22
  And I think that's always been sort of the, the things I, I think of is,
• 37:28
  yeah, kind of what you're saying is like, we create these containers, but
• 37:31
  what can you experience in a container?
• 37:34
  And I see my role as like, how do I start to create those
• 37:37
  transitional bridges, right?
• 37:39
  So that always thinking like, how does this riding or horsemanship groundwork
• 37:46
  thing, how do you can, how can you find that personal connection and how
• 37:52
  does that then support maybe showing up differently outside or believing
• 38:01
  that there's more that you, there's more you can safely show outside.
• 38:10
  Of this space.
• 38:11
  So yeah, I don't know.
• 38:12
  Maybe that, yeah, I haven't really thought of that.
• 38:15
  So anyways, point of why, why this could be helpful in training.
• 38:18
  I think we've just said a few things could be helpful, but what theater does
• 38:23
  is it requires you, again, like I said, to be present, to truly listen, to go
• 38:28
  off of what you're getting, not just to stay, you know, stuck in one way.
• 38:37
  I mean, sometimes when I show you, yes, you have your script,
• 38:40
  right, but how you say it will be changed based on what's happening.
• 38:45
  And and also to kind of continually be thinking, okay, yes, and
• 38:51
  this yes and this, right?
• 38:53
  That's like this typical improv rule of like, yes.
• 38:55
  And, but, but theater is one of those places where the second
• 38:58
  you start thinking, no, no, no, everything falls apart.
• 39:03
  Right.
• 39:03
  You, you've just Right.
• 39:05
  No, absolutely.
• 39:05
  Rupert Isaacson: Improv show must go on.
• 39:07
  It's so interesting.
• 39:08
  I started working in the last year with a group in London called
• 39:13
  Chicken Shed who are a theater that started in the chicken shed.
• 39:18
  Mm-hmm.
• 39:18
  And now are a big deal.
• 39:21
  They put on shows that are like Broadway quality.
• 39:25
  You shouldn't be able to put those shows on really with amateur junior
• 39:34
  actors who are various degrees of special needs, and yet they do.
• 39:41
  And we might be putting something together with the Horse Boy story with them.
• 39:47
  I've observed how they work and it's so interesting now they, they have this,
• 39:51
  degree program through the university system in the uk where I think they're the
• 39:57
  only people that offer is it theater Arts
• 40:05
  for special needs in the special needs context
• 40:08
  mm-hmm.
• 40:09
  As a degree program.
• 40:10
  And it's kind of genius because of course the people who are teaching it are
• 40:15
  people who've come through their programs and their performances, who themselves
• 40:22
  have various types of special needs.
• 40:24
  Mm-hmm.
• 40:25
  And one sees that it works
• 40:29
  so well that when you go to see one of those shows, it's not that you forget
• 40:36
  that the people have special needs.
• 40:37
  It's that the special needs that the person has enhances the show.
• 40:44
  I do feel that there is.
• 40:47
  Naturally and for very good reasons, a sort of desire within the equine
• 40:51
  assisted thing, within any kind of mental health thing to try to help
• 40:54
  people to integrate with the mainstream.
• 40:58
  And that is a worthy cause and it is necessary.
• 41:02
  And at the same time,
• 41:06
  it's not the, it's not the mainstream.
• 41:07
  Mm-hmm.
• 41:08
  You know, one is outside of the mainstream defacto in the work that we do.
• 41:16
  And the difficulty now is it's, as it's becoming more accepted and better funded,
• 41:21
  is that one is expected to now kind of present it in a mainstream sort of a way.
• 41:31
  And it's nice that we are all coming from the hippie margins into the mainstream.
• 41:37
  You're a bit more mainstream than I was 'cause you were with path,
• 41:40
  but, you know, I, I could not have been more marginal and now suddenly.
• 41:45
  Governments and insurance companies and so forth are paying for our services.
• 41:51
  And now we have to more and more, you know, for, tick those boxes
• 41:57
  and present ourselves as if we were mainstream and for, for all the
• 42:01
  reasons that, you know, are inevitable and good and at the same time that
• 42:08
  the magic is not in the mainstream.
• 42:12
  And I think to a large degree you personify that, which is that, you know,
• 42:17
  you've, you, you, you still perform, I know you still perform of what you
• 42:24
  perform, you know, just in performances outside of anything to do with
• 42:29
  equine, anything to do with, you know,
• 42:33
  and I got it.
• 42:34
  It's like, yes.
• 42:36
  That is the ammunition that gives you the ability to show somebody else how
• 42:42
  to perform in a way that serves them and does not drain them, so that they can
• 42:51
  then use that performance to go into the mainstream world, into the shark infested
• 42:58
  waters of neurotypical humanity and swim.
• 43:01
  Mm-hmm.
• 43:05
  So you are a senior path instructor, you're a horse boy instructor.
• 43:11
  You're also a helped us to get what was called the Athena Program going what's
• 43:16
  now called the Takin Program going.
• 43:23
  What in your perfect world would you like to see from theater
• 43:28
  arts performing Arts in this?
• 43:34
  Equine assisted world as a sort of a basic curriculum.
• 43:41
  It would like, it wouldn't matter whether you were going path horse boy, Al
• 43:46
  whatever, there would just be a sort of a
• 43:52
  psychic theater thing that ought to be, that ought to run through the whole,
• 43:58
  it should just be a theme that runs.
• 43:59
  What, what would that look like and how would it be taught in your perfect world?
• 44:06
  If you're in the equine assisted field, or if you're considering
• 44:09
  a career in the equine assisted field, you might want to consider
• 44:13
  taking one of our three neuroscience backed equine assisted programs.
• 44:17
  Horseboy method, now established for 20 years, is the original
• 44:24
  Equine assisted program specifically designed for autism, mentored by and
• 44:30
  developed in conjunction with Dr.
• 44:33
  Temple Grandin and many other neuroscientists.
• 44:36
  We work in the saddle with younger children.
• 44:40
  Helping them create oxytocin in their bodies and neuroplasticity in the brain.
• 44:45
  It works incredibly well.
• 44:47
  It's now in about 40 countries.
• 44:49
  Check it out.
• 44:50
  If you're working without horses, you might want to look at movement
• 44:55
  method, which gets a very, very similar effect, but can also be
• 44:58
  applied in schools, in homes.
• 45:00
  If you're working with families, you can give them really tangible exercises to do
• 45:05
  at home that will create neuroplasticity.
• 45:08
  when they're not with you.
• 45:10
  Finally, we have taquine equine integration.
• 45:13
  If you know anything about our programs, you know that we need a
• 45:16
  really high standard of horsemanship in order to create the oxytocin
• 45:20
  in the body of the person that we're working with, child or adult.
• 45:25
  So, this means we need to train a horse in collection, but this
• 45:28
  also has a really beneficial effect on the horse's well being.
• 45:33
  And it also ends your time conflict, where you're wondering, oh my gosh, how
• 45:37
  am I going to condition my horses and maintain them and give them what they
• 45:40
  need, as well as Serving my clients.
• 45:43
  Takine equine integration aimed at a more adult client base
• 45:48
  absolutely gives you this.
• 45:50
  Betsy Kahl: Oh, well, this is, that's a big question.
• 45:53
  What I liked with how Athena evolved and now to Keen at least
• 46:03
  my interaction with it, right?
• 46:06
  What I liked was that.
• 46:09
  It was a framework of the classical master's system that, that you were
• 46:17
  applying to improving quality of horses to be able to do the therapeutic work.
• 46:23
  Right?
• 46:24
  And, and so.
• 46:28
  I think it was kind of looking at, yeah, what, what is the story of the system?
• 46:33
  Right.
• 46:33
  Okay.
• 46:33
  Well, it was based in military training.
• 46:36
  All right, well, where is that showing?
• 46:39
  I think when you're kind of spitballing these ideas, okay,
• 46:41
  well it should, who, how does this connect then with what's happening?
• 46:46
  And so it was sort of like, okay, military training.
• 46:48
  Okay, veteran, like for me it's like connected to veteran programming, right?
• 46:52
  And then being like, yeah, there is a bit of a gap because sometimes we're
• 46:55
  limited on courses that are, can successfully partner under saddle.
• 47:00
  Right.
• 47:01
  For a variety of reasons, especially when you're dealing with adults and if
• 47:04
  your center has predominantly, you know, some tough scrappy ponies, but not, or
• 47:08
  some pretty older arthritic courses.
• 47:10
  Right.
• 47:11
  And so, so yeah, I think it was just kind of considering like.
• 47:15
  How can, how can we take this classic story much like a classic
• 47:19
  Shakespearean text, right?
• 47:21
  How do we cast it in this new environment, right?
• 47:25
  And, and who, who steps into these roles and why can't, why can't we make the
• 47:31
  veterans the stars of the, the show?
• 47:34
  Right?
• 47:34
  You know, why, why can't they and what, you know, be, have their
• 47:39
  co-star of the horse, right?
• 47:41
  And have them create something, a new story together, right?
• 47:47
  A new story about movement.
• 47:50
  About, about, yeah, about possibility, right?
• 47:55
  And and so I,
• 48:03
  I think for any equine program, maybe what theater offers is that idea of.
• 48:13
  You don't have to
• 48:18
  come up with something totally new.
• 48:20
  It's like, how do we find a new lens to look at what is known?
• 48:26
  How do we get creative in how, what we can add to the stories, right?
• 48:32
  And, and that I think is what was so cool to see evolve with the first
• 48:39
  group of veterans who helped, you know, so, so generously as well
• 48:48
  as the horses we partner with.
• 48:50
  They were just generous to go along with this idea of, hey, like let's try this.
• 48:54
  Let's try this thing, right?
• 48:56
  And let me create the scene, right?
• 48:59
  Here's the history, here's why it came on, you know, and what they would bring to it.
• 49:04
  The, some of the best practitioners of the work ended up being, the veterans
• 49:09
  who worked who flew helicopters, right?
• 49:12
  'cause they understood this idea of thinking and multi planes of movement.
• 49:19
  Rupert Isaacson: That's so interesting.
• 49:19
  And
• 49:19
  Betsy Kahl: balance and when things, you know, were on and off and how Yeah.
• 49:26
  And, and I think, you know, what they brought to it and how they
• 49:30
  shared that knowledge with the group, with the horse, with myself, right.
• 49:35
  That took my understanding of, of the work to a totally different level as well.
• 49:41
  Rupert Isaacson: Hmm.
• 49:41
  Betsy Kahl: And and there, yeah.
• 49:43
  And so
• 49:47
  I think it's that curiosity, right.
• 49:50
  Of, and creativity and embracing, being willing to step slightly into the unknown.
• 49:58
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 49:58
  Betsy Kahl: And, and I don't know if there's really a prescriptive.
• 50:02
  Thing that it could look like, because each program in
• 50:08
  place has their own strengths.
• 50:09
  And, and maybe that's where the challenge is, you know, is we're all trying,
• 50:13
  something that I'm always constantly like checking in with myself is, you know,
• 50:18
  when I have with your feeling for whatever reason, not enoughness or depleted or just
• 50:25
  Rupert Isaacson: mm-hmm.
• 50:26
  Betsy Kahl: Stuck like in the bog of sometimes looking out and being
• 50:30
  like, oh, that thing, if I can do that thing, I'm going to feel like if
• 50:35
  I can be that person or that program or that thing or that training.
• 50:39
  Right?
• 50:39
  And, and sometimes that is the thing to do, but sometimes you also just thinking
• 50:46
  of being like, okay, well what is it?
• 50:50
  What am, what am I trying to resolve for myself by seeking that out?
• 50:55
  And do I already possess.
• 50:58
  What is needed to do that?
• 51:00
  Right.
• 51:00
  Do I already have that?
• 51:02
  And, and yeah.
• 51:04
  Maybe that
• 51:09
  I, I'm not sure where I'm going with this, but I
• 51:11
  Rupert Isaacson: well, I just wrote down, I wrote something down.
• 51:13
  Yeah.
• 51:13
  As you were wrote a bunch of things down actually, but you, a few minutes ago
• 51:19
  you said create a new story together.
• 51:21
  Betsy Kahl: Yeah.
• 51:22
  Rupert Isaacson: I wonder if that's kind of the missing thing that
• 51:28
  actually unites all of the supposedly opposing, of course they're not.
• 51:36
  But people might think that they are equine assisted modalities
• 51:41
  or disciplines or whatever.
• 51:43
  Where what is, what is it that we're all actually doing?
• 51:47
  We are creating a new story together.
• 51:51
  But it's not explicitly said.
• 51:55
  So one can get
• 51:59
  diverted or
• 52:03
  Yeah, yeah.
• 52:04
  Negatively diverted by details of saying, well, I, you know, I do this modality,
• 52:08
  I do horse boy, or I do Athena, which is now taking, or I do path, or I do al or
• 52:13
  I do, you know, life manship or whatever.
• 52:16
  And actually what we're all doing is the same thing.
• 52:19
  What, what we're all doing is I think you, you put your finger on it.
• 52:22
  We are creating a new story together, but there might be ways in which
• 52:27
  to do that, that are quite a bit specific for certain population types.
• 52:33
  That mean that if people were to carry over from one discipline to another,
• 52:40
  one modality to another, one niche to another, they could do it very happily if
• 52:45
  they kept front and center in their mind.
• 52:48
  We are creating a new story together, whether it's for the horse or
• 52:50
  whether it's for the human, you know?
• 52:54
  And I know that that isn't sadly how many people in our industry think.
• 53:00
  But I have noticed that there's a growing impatience with the
• 53:10
  law, the lawmakers and the gatekeepers of funding and so on, with our endless
• 53:16
  factionalism where we bicker with each other, you know, in the same way that
• 53:21
  people in the horse industry do, because we shouldn't really be doing that.
• 53:26
  And I've, I've often wondered, you know, what is the common denominator between
• 53:34
  us all in the equine assisted world?
• 53:38
  I mean, you could say it's healing, but I love this idea.
• 53:42
  You, you said it, I'm, you know, I'm quoting you back to yourself.
• 53:45
  Create a new story together.
• 53:47
  Mm-hmm.
• 53:49
  And if you're going to do that, then it might be a good idea to have some tools
• 53:55
  you know, whether it's theater arts, whether it's old master's training,
• 53:58
  whether it's neuro neuroscience, whether it's, presumably it's all these things.
• 54:05
  Mm-hmm.
• 54:06
  And that we as the professionals in this field,
• 54:13
  surely could naturally
• 54:19
  share our trade secrets, experiences, and.
• 54:28
  Sure.
• 54:29
  You know?
• 54:30
  Betsy Kahl: Yeah.
• 54:31
  Rupert Isaacson: Yet, yet we are still hovering on the brink of it.
• 54:36
  I was just I was just last month at a gathering in Ireland hosted paid for by
• 54:44
  Horse Sport Island, which is amazing.
• 54:46
  'cause Horse Sport Ireland is affected with the U-S-D-U-S-E-F or it's D fn.
• 54:51
  It's the BHS.
• 54:52
  And they have correctly measured that the equine assisted field is
• 55:02
  the only really growing field in the equine world at the moment.
• 55:07
  And they wanted us all from a bunch of different disciplines
• 55:11
  or modalities to present what we did without selling our thing or
• 55:18
  trashing the other person's thing.
• 55:20
  And it's really interesting because we had a bunch of people in the same room.
• 55:24
  Who had to behave themselves, who normally are really at loggerheads with each other.
• 55:29
  Hmm.
• 55:29
  And because they weren't allowed to present that way, what came across
• 55:36
  was quite a coherent, multifaceted front of, we helped to create a
• 55:43
  new story together for people.
• 55:45
  It just might look a bit like this, or it might look a bit like that depending
• 55:47
  on what type of person you have.
• 55:49
  Mm-hmm.
• 55:52
  You've been in it for a long time.
• 55:54
  You, you're an instructor in our modalities.
• 55:56
  You're an instructor in path.
• 56:00
  How should it change?
• 56:01
  Like what, what should happen to, to, to bring us all
• 56:08
  together for the greater good?
• 56:16
  Betsy Kahl: Well,
• 56:20
  I think.
• 56:26
  I think man, it's being, being able to,
• 56:34
  there's, there's, there's, it's so hard to say in an abstract
• 56:37
  way how it should change.
• 56:38
  But I think in just st
• 56:48
  being, I, organizationally, I'm not sure, you know, I'm not really working at that
• 56:54
  level perhaps someday, but individually I can, I suppose I can speak on that
• 57:01
  and perhaps there's something there.
• 57:04
  I think individually it is
• 57:10
  really that self, self-awareness, knowing.
• 57:15
  Knowing what your strengths are.
• 57:17
  Being okay with that, right?
• 57:19
  Like being okay with not having to be everything is something
• 57:24
  that can be difficult, especially in a work environment where
• 57:29
  there is so much variety, right?
• 57:32
  And so much different stuff and that it is okay to much like with horses, right?
• 57:39
  Like, you know, you have your specialist in PO you have your
• 57:42
  specialist in certain things.
• 57:45
  They might not love your specialist for jumping, right?
• 57:48
  Like the horse said, stay up and say, yeah, I will teach
• 57:51
  anyone how to do this thing.
• 57:52
  'cause I love it.
• 57:53
  Right?
• 57:54
  I think that it is okay for you as an individual to know, right?
• 57:59
  What, what feels maybe not forever, but for now, where, where do I
• 58:04
  feel like this is where my talents.
• 58:09
  Thrive and shine, right?
• 58:11
  Like that, I feel very secure and safe in working this way.
• 58:18
  Mm-hmm.
• 58:18
  Not to say that I can't stretch, right?
• 58:20
  It's not to say to play comfortable.
• 58:22
  It's not to say to play small, but it's to say like, this, this is I
• 58:28
  within what I can do, this is within what I can tolerate right now.
• 58:31
  This is within this in a place that I can work where I can, you
• 58:36
  know, meet the needs of the people who show up in that, you know?
• 58:43
  And so, so I think sometimes that's helpful is just to feel like you can
• 58:47
  honestly assess that for yourself or get help from someone to assess that for you
• 58:54
  and understand identifying that what it is, where you do your best work and, and
• 59:02
  then yeah, where are those stretch places?
• 59:05
  And where do you find the support to grow in that area?
• 59:09
  And I don't know if, you know, that's something that space was
• 59:12
  made for that inquiry for me.
• 59:15
  It immediately, you know, sometimes you look at the job descriptions
• 59:19
  of a ride center and it's like you will do everything right.
• 59:24
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 59:24
  Betsy Kahl: And for everyone.
• 59:25
  And, and yeah, there is, you know, resources are thin or, or
• 59:30
  with horses that come in, right?
• 59:31
  And like, that resources can be tight and we want that.
• 59:35
  We so desperately want that to be the reality, but that might not be it.
• 59:39
  And what do we destroy as we try to force that?
• 59:42
  Mm-hmm.
• 59:43
  And so, yeah, I think as we allow, again, individuals to, in every
• 59:51
  aspect, from horses to the instructors, to participants, just to be.
• 59:59
  Able to show up as who they are and build from there.
• 1:00:04
  Right.
• 1:00:05
  Not try to be something else.
• 1:00:09
  Or pretend you like it.
• 1:00:11
  Rupert Isaacson: It's tricky in the horsey world, isn't it?
• 1:00:13
  Because Yeah.
• 1:00:15
  It comes as, you know, we've inherited it from the military.
• 1:00:18
  And military is about conform and conform, although there's a threat of
• 1:00:24
  violence and that this still underpins the way in which we relate to each other
• 1:00:31
  within the horse world, whether it's the therapeutic world, sport world, or any
• 1:00:34
  other world I feel that has to change.
• 1:00:37
  And I do.
• 1:00:37
  I, I'm optimistic.
• 1:00:38
  I feel it is changing.
• 1:00:40
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:00:41
  But we can't really do the job.
• 1:00:45
  Yeah.
• 1:00:46
  Unless, yeah, we.
• 1:00:49
  Actually appreciate each other, you know?
• 1:00:51
  Betsy Kahl: Well, yeah.
• 1:00:53
  And, and I think appreciate what each person can offer.
• 1:00:56
  And I think that's where, you know, maybe this is where art is.
• 1:01:00
  So in whatever way it shows up in your life for me, theater, arts, equestrian
• 1:01:06
  art circus art, you know, that, that there is, you appreciate people 'cause
• 1:01:13
  the thing doesn't belong to you.
• 1:01:15
  Right?
• 1:01:16
  Like, nobody owns the idea of horses.
• 1:01:20
  Nobody owns the idea of therapy.
• 1:01:22
  Like, that's so
• 1:01:23
  Rupert Isaacson: true.
• 1:01:24
  And,
• 1:01:24
  Betsy Kahl: and so I think if you just realize like you are, you have
• 1:01:29
  this finite time to be part of this story, to contribute what you can, and
• 1:01:36
  maybe it'll change the world, maybe it'll just impact someone's life.
• 1:01:40
  Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
• 1:01:40
  Betsy Kahl: But like.
• 1:01:42
  That's enough, right?
• 1:01:45
  Isn't that enough?
• 1:01:46
  And and so I think that's, you know, there is no, art doesn't create a creativity,
• 1:01:54
  and art is the place that I love to go back to because there is, there's no place
• 1:01:59
  for hierarchy or power or that, right.
• 1:02:02
  And it,
• 1:02:03
  Rupert Isaacson: except that the art world is full of that, but Yes.
• 1:02:06
  Betsy Kahl: Well, but to some degree, but not at its core, right?
• 1:02:10
  Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.
• 1:02:10
  Yeah.
• 1:02:10
  You
• 1:02:11
  Betsy Kahl: know, not, yeah, sometimes you're like in the sake of survival
• 1:02:14
  or trying to push yourself or brand or be, or like have whatever, right?
• 1:02:20
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:02:20
  But at its core, right, it's.
• 1:02:23
  It's not you, you couldn't, if you could sell, truly sell it like you
• 1:02:31
  because you know, like there as someone who works with that, like
• 1:02:34
  there is a thing, like it's that, it's that intangible quality of Yeah.
• 1:02:38
  Rupert Isaacson: Of
• 1:02:38
  Betsy Kahl: that in the moment connection that feel that attunement, that,
• 1:02:44
  Rupert Isaacson: that, that's, I think we could put a name on it.
• 1:02:45
  I, I think the name is love.
• 1:02:47
  If you're trying to tell a story, let's go outside of horses for a moment.
• 1:02:52
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:02:52
  That story is only going to
• 1:02:57
  have any resonance if it somehow is about love or, or, or good
• 1:03:03
  stories are love stories and love doesn't have to mean romantic love.
• 1:03:06
  It's, you know, the infinite expressions of love.
• 1:03:10
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:03:11
  Because what we know I think is that life is love.
• 1:03:15
  The tree loves the.
• 1:03:17
  Mycelium network.
• 1:03:20
  The mycelium network loves the tree and the soil.
• 1:03:24
  The soil loves the tree and the mycelium network, the rain loves.
• 1:03:29
  Or you know, I, I, I,
• 1:03:34
  this is where I think working with horses is
• 1:03:38
  healing.
• 1:03:39
  For those of us that do it is nature always wants to bring
• 1:03:44
  us back to a state of harmony.
• 1:03:47
  There is the glass half empty way of looking at the world.
• 1:03:51
  Just say, no, nature is entropy.
• 1:03:52
  And it's always in decay.
• 1:03:55
  Yeah.
• 1:03:55
  But then when it decay, it re constitutes itself and creates Betsy, or, you
• 1:03:59
  know, one of your horses or the person that you're working with or that tree.
• 1:04:04
  And then when that tree dies, it becomes another thing.
• 1:04:06
  But that isn't a bad thing.
• 1:04:09
  That's a loving thing actually.
• 1:04:12
  If when you die, you become the soil and then you become.
• 1:04:16
  The thing that, yeah.
• 1:04:18
  So
• 1:04:21
  I do feel it's about love and I do feel that horses bring us back to that, even
• 1:04:26
  when we're almost willfully forgetting it and using the horse, projecting the horse
• 1:04:32
  as a way to compete with each other or
• 1:04:35
  mm-hmm.
• 1:04:36
  Cause each other harm in some way.
• 1:04:40
  You know, when we, when you and I helped teach other pioneer Athena, you
• 1:04:46
  know, we, we, we then got sued by some people who said, no, we're Athena.
• 1:04:54
  And actually we were both Athena at the same time.
• 1:04:57
  It just, like, literally within a week of each other, we'd done the
• 1:05:02
  trademarks, but one in North America, one in Europe, and the European ones
• 1:05:09
  approached us with such aggression.
• 1:05:12
  It was so interesting to me.
• 1:05:14
  I was like, well, why didn't you just talk to us?
• 1:05:16
  You know, of course we would figure it out because we are
• 1:05:21
  all here for the same reason.
• 1:05:22
  We, we all are here to try to lovingly help people.
• 1:05:26
  Like my son who's sitting on the other side of the court run courtyard right now.
• 1:05:31
  'cause I killed him with too many chores today.
• 1:05:34
  He, you know very well, Rowan.
• 1:05:37
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:05:37
  I do feel that that has to change.
• 1:05:40
  If we as a sort of equine assisted world are going to evolve to the next
• 1:05:46
  stage where, you know, like you as a social worker, where we're being
• 1:05:51
  prescribed in the same way that doctors are now prescribing nature, thank
• 1:05:57
  God, you know, to people and so on.
• 1:05:59
  The stuff that actually works.
• 1:06:01
  Hmm.
• 1:06:02
  As long as we're so obviously factional with each other, people notice and
• 1:06:08
  then they don't take us seriously because they go, you're just a bunch
• 1:06:12
  of idiots arguing with each other.
• 1:06:14
  A bunch of horsey snobs.
• 1:06:17
  We've gotta break out of that.
• 1:06:18
  We've gotta stop that.
• 1:06:19
  And I think that you are one of those people that I've observed who
• 1:06:24
  just automatically treads that line.
• 1:06:28
  When we with Horse Boy began, we were astonished at the
• 1:06:37
  aggression with which path.
• 1:06:38
  And Nara at that time met us.
• 1:06:41
  And I dunno if you remember this, you know, back in 2018 I was giving
• 1:06:45
  a talk at Denver University and I talked about that and I said, you
• 1:06:50
  know, I was saddened by it as an autism dad 'cause it made me feel that.
• 1:06:56
  Really, the people in the field just weren't actually, were more concerned
• 1:07:00
  with protecting their territory than with helping people like myself.
• 1:07:05
  And,
• 1:07:05
  yeah.
• 1:07:06
  What I didn't know is that the board of Path was sitting in the audience
• 1:07:11
  at that time, and we got that email saying you know, well, should we talk?
• 1:07:15
  And I thought, well, this is great.
• 1:07:16
  Yes, absolutely.
• 1:07:17
  Let's talk.
• 1:07:18
  And then I asked you to be on that call because you were, you know, a
• 1:07:23
  path person and an US person too.
• 1:07:28
  And on that call there was the, the person who was in charge said, well, you
• 1:07:35
  know, we've never bad mouthed, do you?
• 1:07:37
  We've, and I remember saying, you know, why are we even having this conversation?
• 1:07:40
  Of course you have, you know, you have, but the, the real reason
• 1:07:44
  is why, like, what is your beef?
• 1:07:47
  Truly, what is your beef?
• 1:07:48
  We'd like to know, and I dunno if you remember, they said,
• 1:07:50
  well, we think you are dangerous.
• 1:07:52
  And we said, well, why?
• 1:07:53
  Why?
• 1:07:54
  Why are we dangerous?
• 1:07:55
  And they said, well, 'cause of the back riding.
• 1:07:56
  'cause you ride with a kid in front of you in horse boy.
• 1:07:59
  And we said, yeah, but look, if it's dangerous, I'm gonna touch wood here.
• 1:08:04
  But why have we not had an accident in back then it was
• 1:08:08
  15 years, now it's 20 years.
• 1:08:09
  Like why?
• 1:08:12
  What is this based on?
• 1:08:14
  Where is, where is this danger that you're talking about?
• 1:08:17
  And then they said, well, ah.
• 1:08:23
  Because when we did it, we had accidents.
• 1:08:26
  And then the penny dropped.
• 1:08:27
  And I was like, I see.
• 1:08:28
  Yes, of course.
• 1:08:30
  Right?
• 1:08:30
  Because you don't prepare the horse's back, you don't prepare the
• 1:08:34
  horse, you don't prepare the rider, you don't prepare the whole thing.
• 1:08:38
  So therefore, yes, if you did it, it probably would be dangerous.
• 1:08:41
  So you should stick to what you do.
• 1:08:43
  We should do what we do and we should compliment each other.
• 1:08:47
  And Athena kind of grew out of that really.
• 1:08:50
  Betsy Kahl: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:08:52
  Yeah.
• 1:08:53
  I have, I, you know, I, I think that's, I can't imagine how, how painful that
• 1:09:00
  must have been to be very excited, you know, when you were first realizing what
• 1:09:04
  helped Rowan and wanting to offer that.
• 1:09:07
  It's, it's probably very painful.
• 1:09:10
  I don't know that exact, it was
• 1:09:11
  Rupert Isaacson: surprising.
• 1:09:12
  It was, but yeah.
• 1:09:13
  I
• 1:09:13
  Betsy Kahl: mean, surprising, but yeah, like it's any type of, any type
• 1:09:20
  of messaging that can be for me, you know, and I've been in situations,
• 1:09:25
  work situations, outside work words.
• 1:09:27
  The idea when the, the.
• 1:09:28
  The takeaway you get, like what, who you are and what you do is wrong.
• 1:09:34
  That, that can be really hard to hear.
• 1:09:37
  And I don't always handle that feedback well.
• 1:09:40
  Right.
• 1:09:41
  But I wish I could
• 1:09:42
  Rupert Isaacson: say I did.
• 1:09:42
  Yeah,
• 1:09:43
  Betsy Kahl: yeah, yeah.
• 1:09:44
  I, I, it's something I'd like to get better at, but I think,
• 1:09:50
  and again, you know, ultimately we can't, we can kind of try
• 1:09:56
  to find where we connect.
• 1:09:57
  And I think, I recall in the call, like at least the one place we were able to
• 1:10:01
  connect was this idea that we wanted to.
• 1:10:07
  That a, a sound horse, a equine welfare was one of the key things
• 1:10:13
  that would promote safety for people regardless of what way we're working.
• 1:10:17
  Rupert Isaacson: Right?
• 1:10:17
  Yes.
• 1:10:17
  Equine welfare.
• 1:10:18
  Betsy Kahl: Yeah.
• 1:10:19
  Rupert Isaacson: A strong back, a happy horse.
• 1:10:20
  And so,
• 1:10:21
  Betsy Kahl: yeah.
• 1:10:21
  Right.
• 1:10:22
  And I think, you know, those are the things, if we can all, at least.
• 1:10:27
  Whatever, whatever ego stuff we have to get through.
• 1:10:32
  Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
• 1:10:32
  Betsy Kahl: Right?
• 1:10:32
  But to figure out where do we, where is that connection, right?
• 1:10:36
  Where is that thing that we both value, that we both are united on?
• 1:10:40
  And that is one thing that I will say has started to come more and more up in, into
• 1:10:45
  the industry, at least in my awareness, even within you know, whatever pleasure
• 1:10:50
  or competitive riding discipline, right?
• 1:10:52
  Is this idea of, you know, something that we haven't centered enough is the
• 1:10:58
  welfare of our horses and, and how, right.
• 1:11:01
  Rupert Isaacson: How do we start?
• 1:11:02
  You're, you're dead, right?
• 1:11:02
  'cause we're all, we're all under scrutiny now.
• 1:11:05
  You know, the whole social licensing thing.
• 1:11:07
  Betsy Kahl: Yeah.
• 1:11:08
  Yeah.
• 1:11:08
  It's not just
• 1:11:09
  Rupert Isaacson: the sport people.
• 1:11:09
  It's us too in the equine assisted field.
• 1:11:12
  Betsy Kahl: Right, right.
• 1:11:13
  And, and that scrutiny can be challenging, right?
• 1:11:15
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:11:16
  Sometimes you are doing the best you can with the resources you have,
• 1:11:19
  and that is okay, you know, and not everyone can have the textbook perfect
• 1:11:24
  setup, but you, you do what you, you can to the best of your ability.
• 1:11:30
  And you know, I, it's something that's interesting is, you know, organizationally
• 1:11:37
  things that, or individ on an individual level again, 'cause that's where
• 1:11:41
  I work, is this idea of, you know, can we ask ourselves a question of
• 1:11:46
  like, what is it I want and what am I willing to do to not get that right?
• 1:11:52
  And because we're always
• 1:11:56
  one of, to not get that.
• 1:11:58
  Rupert Isaacson: That's, yeah.
• 1:11:59
  Betsy Kahl: And, and it's when it, you know, and that's where we start
• 1:12:02
  to come up with those stories, right?
• 1:12:03
  If I say, okay, well I want.
• 1:12:06
  You know, I don't even know who my horse to be able to do this thing.
• 1:12:10
  Right.
• 1:12:10
  You know?
• 1:12:10
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:12:11
  And what am I willing to do to not get that?
• 1:12:13
  And it's like you start to have to really sit with those hard actions that you take
• 1:12:20
  that oppose what you say it is you want, and then you have to recognize, okay, well
• 1:12:25
  I have to reevaluate one of these things.
• 1:12:27
  And then the thought, the question is too, with do you realize
• 1:12:31
  what you're doing to not get it?
• 1:12:32
  It's the idea.
• 1:12:33
  In this line of inquiry it, it's called, it's in this book called Immunity to
• 1:12:38
  Change, which I thought was such a cool title by and and it's like, what are
• 1:12:42
  the commitments I've made that support those things that, you know, those, what
• 1:12:47
  am I committed to that is preventing me from getting that thing that I want?
• 1:12:51
  Rupert Isaacson: Right?
• 1:12:52
  Yeah.
• 1:12:52
  What hill am I dying on?
• 1:12:54
  Betsy Kahl: Yeah.
• 1:12:54
  Yeah.
• 1:12:55
  And it's when the
• 1:12:56
  Rupert Isaacson: actual.
• 1:12:57
  Job is on the other hill.
• 1:12:58
  Betsy Kahl: Yeah.
• 1:12:58
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:12:59
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:13:00
  And so I think maybe regardless of who we are in this industry, it's like, okay,
• 1:13:05
  well if we say we want welfare and we want programming that really helps or supports
• 1:13:15
  participants to get X, Y, Z, right?
• 1:13:20
  You know, if we say this is what we want, what, what are we doing that prevents it?
• 1:13:26
  What are we willing to continue doing?
• 1:13:27
  And then like why?
• 1:13:29
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 1:13:29
  But that means that one has to admit that one sometimes is preventing it.
• 1:13:34
  Betsy Kahl: Yeah.
• 1:13:34
  Which is, that's a
• 1:13:35
  Rupert Isaacson: hard thing to admit, right?
• 1:13:36
  Betsy Kahl: It, you're right.
• 1:13:37
  Right.
• 1:13:37
  But I think, at least for me, like, I think when we start to lead,
• 1:13:42
  maybe not being like, you have to pull out your skeletons, right?
• 1:13:47
  I, I was just like, here are mine.
• 1:13:49
  Like this is, these are, this is where I've failed.
• 1:13:53
  This is how I, like, even, even in some of my clinical work, you know, like the, the
• 1:13:58
  idea of self-disclosure therapeutically is, is a real touchy subject.
• 1:14:02
  And, you know, I, I don't believe in burdening your clients and stuff, but
• 1:14:06
  I think that sometimes I like to some degree being able to be, to not be
• 1:14:11
  afraid to share, you know, where Yeah,
• 1:14:15
  Rupert Isaacson: that's an interesting one, isn't it?
• 1:14:17
  The point of vulnerability, because let's say you're in, in the addiction world when
• 1:14:22
  you're going through anything like that,
• 1:14:26
  the only person who's qualified to deal with you.
• 1:14:29
  Is a therapist that is a recovering addict mm-hmm.
• 1:14:33
  Of the same thing that you've got otherwise they have nothing, you know, to
• 1:14:38
  show you other than a bunch of opinions.
• 1:14:40
  And in the course of that, in your average AA meeting everything is shared
• 1:14:48
  and it's interesting and it works.
• 1:14:50
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:14:51
  And yet it's relegated from the other therapeutic modalities.
• 1:14:58
  Betsy Kahl: Yeah.
• 1:14:59
  Yeah.
• 1:15:00
  Yeah.
• 1:15:00
  That is interesting.
• 1:15:02
  You know, I had a a that makes me think of, I had a, a job interview, or I was,
• 1:15:08
  well, it was not probably a candidate.
• 1:15:09
  I think they were doing me a favor of a person who suggested I interview
• 1:15:13
  this job, but it was to work as a, a therapist for kids who again, had family
• 1:15:20
  members or people that really close to whose lives were touched by cancer.
• 1:15:24
  And I remember being in the interview and one of the questions they asked me because
• 1:15:28
  I had shared something about, you know, my history as a child who had a family member
• 1:15:32
  touched by cancer and ended up dying from cancer when I was still you know, I guess
• 1:15:38
  I was technically an adult in 19, but but anyways, from 12 to 19 it was a pretty,
• 1:15:43
  pretty significant presence in our lives.
• 1:15:45
  And and I rather being like, how is that going to impact?
• 1:15:50
  And the, the, the idea is like in a negative way.
• 1:15:52
  Like how, how you be that's gonna impact your work.
• 1:15:56
  Right, but not seeing it and as a strength per se, and I forget how the question was
• 1:16:03
  phrased, but I remember just being like, I, you know, I'm not sure, like I've,
• 1:16:09
  to where I am currently have processed the best I can and continue to work on it.
• 1:16:13
  I was like, but what I do know is that as a 12-year-old, I would've loved
• 1:16:16
  to have met somebody who had, could say, who would've been able to say
• 1:16:20
  like, yeah, when I was your age, this was going on, and it's really hard.
• 1:16:25
  But like, and even to see that they got through it, right?
• 1:16:29
  Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
• 1:16:30
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:16:30
  Betsy Kahl: And, and I think, yeah, it's interesting why sometimes that,
• 1:16:37
  and I get too, like it's a fine line because there are people who do dump
• 1:16:41
  and maybe do put too much out there.
• 1:16:43
  And it's, it's again, we're not, it's not a one-upmanship of stories, right?
• 1:16:51
  It's not a suffering competition, but it's that, it's that connection
• 1:16:55
  and that that true empathy and like, not not trying to eclipse someone's
• 1:17:01
  experience with your own, but just being like, I get that this is hard and this
• 1:17:06
  is my experience of it, and, and for whatever I've gained from it, if I have
• 1:17:14
  something within that to offer you.
• 1:17:17
  Rupert Isaacson: Right.
• 1:17:17
  Well, I mean, you've been, you've been coy, but for the right reasons about
• 1:17:23
  saying you know, what your involvement was with having a family member that
• 1:17:27
  was, you know, touched by cancer.
• 1:17:29
  Is it all right for me to say, or to ask you to say who that was?
• 1:17:34
  Because I think knowing you as I do
• 1:17:40
  that acts through your heart.
• 1:17:48
  Spouted a wellspring of compassion that has, you know, informed
• 1:17:55
  everything that you've done.
• 1:17:57
  So why beat about the bush?
• 1:17:59
  Because there'll be people listening, there'll be people watching who
• 1:18:02
  are going through it, or their kids are going through it, you know?
• 1:18:07
  So is it all right to talk about that?
• 1:18:09
  Betsy Kahl: Yeah.
• 1:18:10
  Yeah, yeah.
• 1:18:10
  Rupert Isaacson: So tell us who it was and, and, and, and how it affected you.
• 1:18:18
  Betsy Kahl: Yeah.
• 1:18:18
  It was well it was my father and and he was, it's, I, I know I'm confused
• 1:18:26
  as to, to the story of it all.
• 1:18:28
  I, at least as I understood it, when I was 12, he was
• 1:18:30
  diagnosed with pancreatic cancer.
• 1:18:32
  My mom will sometimes now say it was just outside small intestine,
• 1:18:36
  but anyways, intestinal cancer and and he went through surgery.
• 1:18:41
  So he was at that time, 42 and and he had, you know, surgery and then was
• 1:18:47
  in remission for about seven years.
• 1:18:49
  And then when he was 49, it came back and had metastasized.
• 1:18:56
  And you know, I think less than a year he passed away.
• 1:19:00
  So it's been, it was 27 years on the 17th of this December.
• 1:19:06
  And so, so yeah, it's been, been a long time.
• 1:19:09
  So I was, yeah, from 12 to 19, I was 19 when he died.
• 1:19:13
  And.
• 1:19:15
  That definitely does in, in great and not so great.
• 1:19:22
  It just, it just, it does, it changes you.
• 1:19:24
  The, you know, you have your life narrative is very much like, pre-death
• 1:19:30
  and after death to some degree.
• 1:19:32
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:19:32
  And and so yeah, just how you make sense of the world, how
• 1:19:36
  you move forward is impacted.
• 1:19:38
  Rupert Isaacson: How do you make sense of the world and move forward?
• 1:19:44
  Betsy Kahl: I don't know.
• 1:19:46
  It's a daily thing.
• 1:19:47
  That's a great answer, right?
• 1:19:47
  Yeah.
• 1:19:48
  Rupert Isaacson: It's a daily
• 1:19:49
  Betsy Kahl: thing.
• 1:19:49
  And I think, again, you know, that can be terrifying.
• 1:19:52
  But again, or you can realize that like, yeah, every day
• 1:19:57
  is you're creating the story.
• 1:20:00
  Right?
• 1:20:01
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 1:20:01
  Betsy Kahl: That, that, if I don't have such a grip, I mean, I was
• 1:20:08
  about to say death grip, which isn't that interesting, right?
• 1:20:10
  It's not, is it a grip that results after having death so close to you.
• 1:20:14
  Right.
• 1:20:15
  But like if you can just, yeah.
• 1:20:19
  Just see how it shows up and, and move with that through your day.
• 1:20:26
  'Cause there are days that are easy.
• 1:20:29
  There are days where it hits.
• 1:20:30
  There are days where it, you know, comes and gets.
• 1:20:35
  Yeah.
• 1:20:35
  But I think, I think, you know, you come, you make, you're
• 1:20:38
  consistently making meaning of it.
• 1:20:40
  And, and I think in the past I used to think, oh, you make,
• 1:20:43
  you know, meaning and it's done.
• 1:20:47
  Good job.
• 1:20:47
  But but now I think it is a, every day I make meaning of the loss and that is okay.
• 1:20:56
  And that is what's re required, at least of me, of how I'm, how
• 1:21:01
  I'm, how I carry it with me.
• 1:21:03
  And so, so yeah.
• 1:21:07
  And that it's never done.
• 1:21:08
  And I think when it's, I let go of that idea of thinking that there'd
• 1:21:10
  be a resolution or an end point or, or something, you know, but but yeah,
• 1:21:17
  and, and I think some of the meaning is yeah, how do I, how do I remember?
• 1:21:22
  And in that remembering re embodying of who my dad was, right?
• 1:21:26
  How do I remember that?
• 1:21:27
  How do I carry that?
• 1:21:29
  How do I keep that alive with me in some way?
• 1:21:33
  So, so yeah, I think that's, that's, I think how I do it.
• 1:21:38
  In some ways, well, and some ways not so well.
• 1:21:41
  Doesn't mean that I don't also highly recommend sobbing in the
• 1:21:45
  shower or or crumpling it or, yeah,
• 1:21:48
  Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
• 1:21:48
  Betsy Kahl: Or yeah.
• 1:21:49
  You know, like that's all can be part of it too.
• 1:21:52
  But yeah.
• 1:21:53
  But I think too, well it being able to do presumably
• 1:21:56
  Rupert Isaacson: must be Yes.
• 1:21:57
  Betsy Kahl: Sharing that, that story, right.
• 1:21:59
  Because yeah, we can make meaning for ourselves, but then yeah, we
• 1:22:03
  have to, we heal through connection and community with others.
• 1:22:06
  So how
• 1:22:08
  Rupert Isaacson: have you, in the course of the work that you've
• 1:22:11
  done with the equine assisted work,
• 1:22:15
  encountered a lot of people who are dealing with grief?
• 1:22:18
  Betsy Kahl: Mm-hmm.
• 1:22:19
  Yeah.
• 1:22:20
  Yeah.
• 1:22:21
  I mean, gosh, there's so much grief.
• 1:22:26
  Maybe not, not like, you know, the dead dad's clo, which is
• 1:22:31
  Rupert Isaacson: sometimes
• 1:22:31
  Betsy Kahl: interesting.
• 1:22:32
  You know, it was really, it's interesting sometimes those periods
• 1:22:35
  where you connect with someone quickly and you later on realize, oh
• 1:22:38
  wow, you, your father has died too.
• 1:22:40
  You had no idea why, but there's just some type of resonance.
• 1:22:45
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:22:46
  And but but yeah, I think there is so much grief in involved with,
• 1:22:50
  with horses that people bring.
• 1:22:52
  And I like things that I've heard, just, I think that there's a,
• 1:23:00
  I, there's so many friends who have horses or maybe got back to horses later
• 1:23:06
  in life and they're still grieving for.
• 1:23:09
  What they did, or, you know, how they feel they've harmed or
• 1:23:14
  harmed a horse in their past.
• 1:23:16
  Right.
• 1:23:16
  Or I think there's, there's grief work there, right?
• 1:23:21
  Um mm-hmm.
• 1:23:23
  There's, there's grief.
• 1:23:24
  If you've lost your heart horse, there's, there's grief of those things you wanted
• 1:23:29
  to accomplish, but maybe think you won't.
• 1:23:32
  Rupert Isaacson: Hmm.
• 1:23:33
  if you're a horse nerd, and if you're on this podcast, I'm guessing you are, then
• 1:23:38
  you've probably also always wondered a little bit about the old master system.
• 1:23:44
  of dressage training.
• 1:23:45
  If you go and check out our Helios Harmony program, we outline there step by step
• 1:23:54
  exactly how to train your horse from the ground to become the dressage horse
• 1:24:00
  of your dreams in a way that absolutely serves the physical, mental and emotional
• 1:24:07
  well being of the horse and the rider.
• 1:24:10
  Intrigued?
• 1:24:10
  Like to know more?
• 1:24:12
  Go to our website, Helios Harmony.
• 1:24:17
  Check out the free introduction course.
• 1:24:19
  Take it from there.
• 1:24:20
  Betsy Kahl: There's, yeah, there's so, so much, and I mean, maybe grief
• 1:24:25
  is not the correct word for it.
• 1:24:27
  I don't know, but, but I think there is, it's, you know,
• 1:24:31
  there's, there's a loss at least
• 1:24:34
  Rupert Isaacson: death of dreams, you know?
• 1:24:36
  Betsy Kahl: Yeah.
• 1:24:37
  You know, I feel like I've had to do a lot of, of grief.
• 1:24:41
  Work but not be eclipse with like Stewart.
• 1:24:44
  You know, for Stewart is the horse.
• 1:24:47
  I've had since he was like just turned four and he's now probably like 25.
• 1:24:52
  And he is an amazing horse and I've learned, like, just did
• 1:24:56
  everything for me in anything.
• 1:24:58
  And and in 2022 from being a horse who could do what you name it, he'd
• 1:25:05
  do it like through like PF changes, like whatever, and willing to give
• 1:25:11
  it to anyone, trail ride, whatever.
• 1:25:14
  He was great.
• 1:25:15
  He got EPM and went from being like the strongest horse I ever knew to
• 1:25:18
  barely being able to stay upright.
• 1:25:19
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:25:20
  And, and I think there's grief for like, you know, what I would consider, but
• 1:25:26
  seeing how he's managed it and like now.
• 1:25:31
  Again, that daily meaning making of his loss and not being like,
• 1:25:35
  well the story's over, right?
• 1:25:37
  Because he's in his heart, he wants to show up and do stuff, right?
• 1:25:42
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 1:25:42
  Betsy Kahl: So it's been like, okay, well where can we start?
• 1:25:46
  And so he started with like, when he, it was too much of a, I was
• 1:25:49
  worried he'd fall over on me.
• 1:25:51
  We did like from protective contact, like trick training, touch this
• 1:25:54
  target, touch here, go there, right?
• 1:25:57
  That's where we could start.
• 1:25:58
  And then from there it was, 'cause he had the in hand work kind of foundation.
• 1:26:02
  It was like, okay, well let's start playing with some of this.
• 1:26:05
  What can you offer today?
• 1:26:07
  And then it was like yeah.
• 1:26:10
  So never seeing, I'm getting off on a tangent here, but I think, like, I feel
• 1:26:16
  like for, with my relation with him, it's been this constant like creating
• 1:26:21
  and how much I sometimes want to just.
• 1:26:24
  Stay stuck in the grief and be like, okay, his story is over.
• 1:26:27
  I'm gonna retire him.
• 1:26:28
  He's done.
• 1:26:30
  And how he refuses to let that
• 1:26:31
  Rupert Isaacson: happen.
• 1:26:32
  Yeah,
• 1:26:32
  Betsy Kahl: because he's, you know, I had a friend who's like, you
• 1:26:36
  know, there are horses who, Winnie and she's like, he sings an aria.
• 1:26:38
  He has the most operatic like.
• 1:26:41
  Just across the pa, across the whole property will just, the sighting
• 1:26:46
  you roll in, just all ha like, cut, like, I'm here, what are we doing?
• 1:26:52
  And like, yeah.
• 1:26:54
  And it has been so interesting 'cause he's just keeps, has kept showing up.
• 1:26:58
  And yesterday the first day that I actually sat on him in like a, since he
• 1:27:02
  was sick, and, and he, 'cause he had just kept showing like he was strong enough, he
• 1:27:07
  wanted to, and I was just like, all right.
• 1:27:09
  Dusted off his old saddle, threw it on him.
• 1:27:12
  And, and it so didn't want to, 'cause I remember like, you know, earlier
• 1:27:16
  on in his recovery doing that and literally being like, okay, let's see
• 1:27:20
  if he can like, trot on the lunge.
• 1:27:23
  And he fell over and like being like, ah gosh.
• 1:27:26
  Like he can't be wr, you know?
• 1:27:28
  And, i'm not even saying like big circles, I'm saying like, just
• 1:27:31
  trot down the lungs, I fell over.
• 1:27:33
  And like, so being, doing, being willing to like, try that again.
• 1:27:38
  Put a saddle on him, not out of fear of like, ah, he is gonna hurt me, but just
• 1:27:41
  like, can my heart take being broken?
• 1:27:44
  If I open up to this possibility.
• 1:27:46
  Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
• 1:27:46
  Betsy Kahl: And and he God, if a horse could strut out of a paddock with a sound
• 1:27:52
  like he was pumped and proud, and I know I'm putting human emotions on an animal
• 1:27:58
  anthropomorphizing, but like, but you know, it was just such a strong thing.
• 1:28:02
  And I just like got on and was just like, okay, like let's just walk.
• 1:28:06
  And he walked and like, I gather up the reins and from a walk you went
• 1:28:10
  into a counter and like just, and I was like, let's just do two or three steps.
• 1:28:14
  But like, you know, it was.
• 1:28:20
  So the story continues, right?
• 1:28:21
  And I find myself now battling this idea of like, is that, can
• 1:28:25
  I, do I want that to be the end?
• 1:28:27
  Because that was so great and I'm so scared.
• 1:28:30
  If we try again, what if it falls apart?
• 1:28:33
  Right?
• 1:28:33
  And I think that's where loss for me shows up is sometimes that fear of
• 1:28:38
  Rupert Isaacson: opening
• 1:28:39
  Betsy Kahl: up to life being beautiful, like knowing that it's not permanent.
• 1:28:46
  Like I hate that.
• 1:28:49
  I hate it.
• 1:28:50
  And, and there are some places where uncomfortable, but there are some
• 1:28:52
  places where oh, it's terrifying.
• 1:28:56
  And and so, so I wonder if that, you know, there's sometimes in
• 1:29:02
  that yeah, pro like wanting,
• 1:29:06
  not wanting to lose again.
• 1:29:09
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, sure.
• 1:29:10
  But we don't go for, you said just now.
• 1:29:13
  And so the story continues.
• 1:29:15
  Yeah.
• 1:29:15
  And I was, I was gonna ask you why is it that horses help humans
• 1:29:22
  to deal with grief So, so well, because we know that horses do, whether it's
• 1:29:30
  getting us through breakups, whether it's getting us through deaths, whether
• 1:29:35
  it's getting us through family mess ups, whether it's our own addictions
• 1:29:41
  or whatever or fears, anxieties.
• 1:29:44
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:29:46
  Why do horses help us so much with this?
• 1:29:52
  Betsy Kahl: Hmm.
• 1:29:56
  I, I don't know.
• 1:30:00
  I would, my guess is that again.
• 1:30:05
  Being, being creatures who live in, in the present moment they don't stay stuck
• 1:30:12
  in the past where a lot of grief resides.
• 1:30:17
  And, and so they, they, maybe that's it.
• 1:30:19
  They've make us continue.
• 1:30:21
  Nurses
• 1:30:21
  Rupert Isaacson: just don't stay stuck.
• 1:30:23
  Yeah, I, I think you got it there.
• 1:30:25
  Betsy Kahl: Yeah.
• 1:30:26
  And you know, I remember another good steward story when I had him and was in my
• 1:30:30
  twenties going through a, a breakup that ended up being a breakup after a breakup.
• 1:30:34
  Like, like, it was like we just kept breaking up.
• 1:30:37
  And it took me a while to learn.
• 1:30:39
  But but I remember I was like, yeah, we had had, we had a fight, it was
• 1:30:43
  like 2:00 AM and I was living at the barn in the apartment by the barn.
• 1:30:49
  And so Stewart was like, right.
• 1:30:50
  You know, just, just walk to his, his stable.
• 1:30:54
  And so I like, was like, I'm so sad, I'm gonna go see my horse.
• 1:30:58
  'cause like, you know, I'm like, we're gonna have a, a, my friend flick a
• 1:31:02
  national, you name it, and you roll all the great horse movies into one, I'm
• 1:31:07
  gonna have like, yeah, that guy sucks.
• 1:31:09
  Like this, this horse, it, you're
• 1:31:12
  Rupert Isaacson: gonna bring my drama to my horse.
• 1:31:14
  Betsy Kahl: Right, right.
• 1:31:15
  So, so yeah, I go.
• 1:31:16
  I walk in and he's like, munching some hay this stall.
• 1:31:19
  And he's like, oh, hey.
• 1:31:20
  Like,
• 1:31:20
  Rupert Isaacson: what up dude?
• 1:31:21
  Betsy Kahl: Yeah.
• 1:31:21
  And he's just like, Hey, hold.
• 1:31:23
  So I like walk in the stall and he like walks over and I'm like, here it comes.
• 1:31:26
  Like, I'm just gonna hug.
• 1:31:28
  And, and he goes over and he's sort of like, okay, what's going on?
• 1:31:31
  And I'm sure he is just like, okay, she's sad.
• 1:31:33
  I'm like, let's do it.
• 1:31:34
  And he is like, you know, I've had him.
• 1:31:36
  And then I was just like, and now you hold me.
• 1:31:40
  And that horse we met like in the middle of his stall and he put
• 1:31:43
  his head down, like into my chest.
• 1:31:45
  And I'm thinking here, yep.
• 1:31:47
  He loves me.
• 1:31:48
  And he just headbutted me.
• 1:31:49
  And like,
• 1:31:53
  and I had been like, water working and
• 1:31:57
  Rupert Isaacson: I can't believe you did that to
• 1:31:58
  Betsy Kahl: me.
• 1:31:58
  He shoved me back and I like pump into the back of the stall.
• 1:32:02
  And I just stood there, somewhat stunned.
• 1:32:04
  And he looked at me and I looked at him and he just like blew out, turned
• 1:32:08
  and went back to eating his hay.
• 1:32:09
  And I was just like, and then I, it became very clear.
• 1:32:13
  It's like, oh, this is not.
• 1:32:15
  He is not interested.
• 1:32:17
  And like, you know what, this is all pretty,
• 1:32:22
  this whole mellow drama.
• 1:32:25
  I was trying to like, of it, like, I, I should just go
• 1:32:33
  my, yeah.
• 1:32:34
  You know?
• 1:32:36
  And, and maybe there would've been a worse, like, yeah.
• 1:32:38
  Like probably the mayor I had in, in high school would've just like mothered
• 1:32:42
  me, you know, like would've let me up.
• 1:32:45
  But like, that's not who Stewart is and that's Yeah, I know Stuart.
• 1:32:49
  Yes.
• 1:32:49
  Not him.
• 1:32:50
  And and and I think, yeah, and I think, you know, having a horse like Stewart in
• 1:32:55
  my life, especially through a period of my life, I went through so many changes
• 1:32:57
  of a horse who was just like, okay, like we're going like, let's not, yeah.
• 1:33:04
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:33:04
  You can be whatever you wanna be, but let's keep moving.
• 1:33:07
  And, let's
• 1:33:08
  Rupert Isaacson: keep moving.
• 1:33:08
  No, I agree.
• 1:33:09
  It's, it's like I, I think that one of the, so I was thinking dogs, like
• 1:33:13
  dogs do get involved in human dramas.
• 1:33:15
  Dogs die of broken hearts.
• 1:33:16
  Dogs are quite similar to us in many ways.
• 1:33:19
  And so sometimes can get stuck.
• 1:33:21
  Like we can get stuck.
• 1:33:23
  Horses don't, and they carry us.
• 1:33:26
  Right.
• 1:33:27
  Even if we're not riding them, they still carry us metaphorically.
• 1:33:32
  Betsy Kahl: Well, and they, they do
• 1:33:34
  Rupert Isaacson: another way of being.
• 1:33:35
  Right.
• 1:33:35
  Betsy Kahl: Right.
• 1:33:36
  And I mean, even, and they carry us, they move us right physically.
• 1:33:41
  Like if we are on moving our bodies, which is again, like at the core of
• 1:33:45
  it, why adaptive riding started Right.
• 1:33:49
  Is to get a movement we wouldn't otherwise be able to give ourselves.
• 1:33:54
  And and so, so yeah.
• 1:33:57
  I mean, and there is.
• 1:33:59
  You don't need me to tell you the, the healing that can come, the
• 1:34:03
  growth that can come through movement and the antithesis of stagnation.
• 1:34:08
  And so maybe that is where horses help us, right?
• 1:34:12
  Is that Yeah,
• 1:34:13
  Rupert Isaacson: I, I, I love that actually.
• 1:34:14
  Yeah.
• 1:34:14
  Horses move your body.
• 1:34:15
  They do.
• 1:34:16
  They do.
• 1:34:16
  Whether you are on them or not, they move your body.
• 1:34:19
  You, you could say yes, you have to walk your dog.
• 1:34:21
  And it's not that dogs don't encourage movement, but, and we all own
• 1:34:26
  dogs and, you know, love our dogs.
• 1:34:28
  So we're not disrespecting the dog.
• 1:34:32
  But there is, I think, this
• 1:34:40
  miracle that we are their predator.
• 1:34:45
  They are always skeptical of us.
• 1:34:47
  Like, are you, are you gonna eat me?
• 1:34:50
  And the answer is.
• 1:34:53
  Maybe if I was hungry enough and I needed to feed my children,
• 1:34:57
  I wouldn't be happy about it.
• 1:34:58
  But, you know, so when you have that kind of reality, I think, in a relationship,
• 1:35:05
  and then as you say, they move us, carry us, move us, help us transition,
• 1:35:13
  the story goes to the next chapter.
• 1:35:18
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:35:19
  And, you know, you've, you've touched on storytelling so much in this conversation,
• 1:35:23
  whether through theater, arts or
• 1:35:26
  you know, in, in so many ways.
• 1:35:29
  In
• 1:35:31
  your perfect world, where is the whole equine assisted field going?
• 1:35:40
  What do you want to see in the next 10 years?
• 1:35:42
  Hmm.
• 1:35:47
  Betsy Kahl: I.
• 1:35:51
  I would love to see
• 1:35:57
  more belonging.
• 1:36:00
  And, and by that I mean more, more
• 1:36:02
  Rupert Isaacson: what?
• 1:36:02
  Sorry?
• 1:36:03
  Betsy Kahl: Belonging.
• 1:36:04
  Rupert Isaacson: Belonging.
• 1:36:05
  Betsy Kahl: Sense of belonging.
• 1:36:06
  Okay.
• 1:36:06
  And by that I mean that
• 1:36:11
  there are many individuals, many, I, I can think, it's not hard for me to
• 1:36:16
  think of something like, name fix you think would make a great instructor.
• 1:36:20
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:36:20
  There are often people that, I mean, and maybe some are not in the
• 1:36:23
  time of life to pursue it, but some people like they're big obstacles.
• 1:36:27
  They don't believe that they can do it.
• 1:36:32
  And I.
• 1:36:34
  Strongly disagree and we'll, we'll express that.
• 1:36:37
  But yeah, that idea of like, okay, 'cause there are so many people that could
• 1:36:41
  provide, so like that we need more, right?
• 1:36:44
  Like, like there are wait lists and there are people who
• 1:36:48
  could, could help with that.
• 1:36:49
  And so I think if we,
• 1:36:54
  and by would
• 1:36:55
  Rupert Isaacson: everybody involved in horses?
• 1:36:57
  Betsy Kahl: Yeah.
• 1:36:58
  Yeah.
• 1:36:58
  And
• 1:36:58
  Rupert Isaacson: offer something on the therapeutic.
• 1:37:00
  Mm.
• 1:37:01
  Betsy Kahl: And again, figuring out like, well, what it, what is it?
• 1:37:03
  Is it doing mounted work?
• 1:37:06
  Is it the groundwork?
• 1:37:07
  Is it great?
• 1:37:08
  Yeah, sure.
• 1:37:08
  And I think that's what's great was things are spreading out as far as what
• 1:37:13
  ways you could pursue certifications to be a practitioner, right?
• 1:37:17
  There's something now at a level for I think an entry point for so many people.
• 1:37:22
  Now.
• 1:37:25
  What's preventing them from going there?
• 1:37:28
  I, I'm not sure.
• 1:37:29
  But I think that as professionals, like the more we Yeah.
• 1:37:33
  Do like, encourage people to pursue this get curious about, yeah.
• 1:37:40
  Is the, is this the stretch place for them to step up here?
• 1:37:44
  So I'd like to see more belonging.
• 1:37:46
  I'd like to see, and I think that comes too from like places
• 1:37:49
  of different sizes, right?
• 1:37:51
  Like some people are comfortable working in big programs.
• 1:37:54
  Some prefer backyards, horses as well, right?
• 1:37:57
  So like just having more diversity within how things are delivered.
• 1:38:05
  And, and I think for me, what I would love to get involved with
• 1:38:09
  is that idea of not siloing.
• 1:38:16
  Recreation riding versus adaptive versus lesson programs.
• 1:38:21
  Like, I so value what I was able to experience growing up in a barn that,
• 1:38:28
  and it is hard, and I'm not gonna deny, but like valley riding doesn't, man,
• 1:38:32
  they have people who pay their board, who understand lessons run at these times and
• 1:38:37
  you ride with them and no one gets to own the arena and also understand that, yeah,
• 1:38:42
  we help out with the therapeutic program, but like, I remember growing up like, how
• 1:38:47
  rare is it to be like trotting around on your, your horse Sputnik and to look and
• 1:38:52
  see someone doing like Tempe changes and all kinds of cool stuff and like to, and
• 1:38:57
  to be able to have conversations with it.
• 1:38:58
  Like, you know, it's just, I think that again, as these.
• 1:39:05
  Worlds that all share common mission?
• 1:39:09
  Yeah.
• 1:39:10
  Just trying to, to do the, be do right by our horses and,
• 1:39:15
  Rupert Isaacson: um mm-hmm.
• 1:39:17
  Betsy Kahl: Be
• 1:39:18
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 1:39:18
  I think I, I agree.
• 1:39:19
  Offer those
• 1:39:19
  Betsy Kahl: connections.
• 1:39:20
  Like Yeah.
• 1:39:20
  I, I would just, I love the idea of things not being, because then too, that's
• 1:39:25
  how a kid like me could grow up to be like, oh, well, I can be a horse owner,
• 1:39:30
  but I can also teach adaptive riding.
• 1:39:32
  I can also teach, like, none of this is mutually exclusive.
• 1:39:36
  And and that,
• 1:39:39
  Rupert Isaacson: that they're not really
• 1:39:39
  Betsy Kahl: that different when it comes down to it.
• 1:39:43
  Like, I mean, they are, there's technical skills.
• 1:39:48
  Right.
• 1:39:49
  But no, I,
• 1:39:50
  Rupert Isaacson: I, I, I, I, I think I agree with you.
• 1:39:51
  I think, I think that if, if, if, let's say you're at Pony Club
• 1:39:57
  Yeah.
• 1:39:57
  Or
• 1:39:58
  came up, I came up through Pony Club.
• 1:39:59
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:40:01
  And if in pony club it was,
• 1:40:08
  I dunno, mandatory to do some sort of service and that you could choose, there
• 1:40:15
  could be just a whole variety, you know?
• 1:40:18
  Well, like when I was growing up, I, I, I loved hunting.
• 1:40:21
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:40:22
  And one of the great
• 1:40:25
  fulfillments of my life in the last few years is that I've hooked up
• 1:40:29
  with this great hunt in Germany called the VA veil Bloodhounds.
• 1:40:33
  You know, they're not hunting animals.
• 1:40:36
  We hunt each other.
• 1:40:37
  But it looks like fox hunting.
• 1:40:39
  And we have every year an inclusive hunt.
• 1:40:45
  You know, you could make so many boar act like jokes of No, we are only
• 1:40:48
  hunting the autistic people so much here.
• 1:40:50
  But.
• 1:40:52
  What we are doing of course, is we are creating a day where all the people
• 1:40:56
  who are in the Horse Boy program can have a day riding to Hounds.
• 1:41:01
  And we do it on our friend Henrik and Getty's property, you know, who run
• 1:41:07
  that great horse boy program there.
• 1:41:09
  Because we can choreograph it and control it and so on.
• 1:41:13
  But the amount of horse preparation that goes into it is insane as you can imagine.
• 1:41:22
  But yet, you know, we have, say for example, Julian Beckoff, who
• 1:41:26
  is a young rider with spina bifida and hydrocephalus coming back and
• 1:41:30
  saying, I rode to hands, you know?
• 1:41:33
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:41:33
  And for me to be able to sort of open up that world with the
• 1:41:42
  assisted equine assisted world
• 1:41:44
  mm-hmm.
• 1:41:46
  Has a sort of particular resonance for my soul, so I get healed as well.
• 1:41:51
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:41:52
  And this, as you say, to silo it off, saying, well, if, if you're a fox hunter
• 1:41:56
  or if you're an inventor, or if you're a show jumper, you're a dressage writer or
• 1:42:00
  you're a therapeutic person, or you're this, you are western pleasure, your,
• 1:42:05
  you know, and that these things exist outside of human mental health, I think
• 1:42:12
  weirdly, that actually harms the horse.
• 1:42:15
  I think what horses want to do is interact with us in this kind of
• 1:42:20
  cross species, cross mammalian way, tribal horse culture that, you know,
• 1:42:25
  humans and horses evolved four to 6,000 years ago out there on the step.
• 1:42:31
  And that's how kind of how horses want to engage and that they,
• 1:42:36
  you, you talked about belonging.
• 1:42:37
  What is belonging?
• 1:42:38
  Belonging is tribe clan.
• 1:42:41
  And we are all members of a global horse tribe, right?
• 1:42:45
  Which includes our people who perhaps are, are more vulnerable.
• 1:42:51
  If we, I think one of the things I, I I, I love about observing horses
• 1:42:55
  that go into therapy programs is that
• 1:42:59
  they tend to do the job with enthusiasm.
• 1:43:02
  They tend to dive into the job.
• 1:43:04
  And I've never yet met a horse who said, oh, I don't do that because I'm
• 1:43:09
  actually, you know, a Grand Prix horse.
• 1:43:12
  No horse ever said that, ever.
• 1:43:14
  That's a monkey idea, you know?
• 1:43:16
  The horse says, I'm here, I'm available.
• 1:43:19
  You show me what it is you want from me.
• 1:43:23
  And if it is reasonable and doesn't make me feel horrible, I'll probably
• 1:43:29
  participate, you know, in a, in a, in the, just the same way you would.
• 1:43:33
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:43:34
  Coming down to love.
• 1:43:36
  At the end of the day, horses operate through love.
• 1:43:39
  Horses operate through emotion.
• 1:43:40
  Horses operate through that mutual support system that they have, even when they're
• 1:43:45
  being rude to each other that we do too.
• 1:43:50
  So in your perfect world, would it be like that?
• 1:43:52
  Would it be that say at pony club level or a four H or you know, whatever is
• 1:43:57
  the entry point for the kid that this is made front and center, rather than
• 1:44:06
  saying, well, the real stuff is over here.
• 1:44:10
  If you want to go play with the retards as well.
• 1:44:12
  Okay, you can do that.
• 1:44:13
  But you know, rather, that I think is the message we all got growing up.
• 1:44:20
  But what if it was different?
• 1:44:22
  What if it was much more front and center for the young riders coming
• 1:44:27
  in and validated in, in a weird way?
• 1:44:31
  Maybe you earned your points, you know, towards whatever system
• 1:44:35
  you are working towards with a certain amount of service hours.
• 1:44:40
  You know, it's interesting that that's not built in, isn't it?
• 1:44:44
  You know, that it's,
• 1:44:45
  Betsy Kahl: yeah.
• 1:44:46
  I'm not aware if it is or if it isn't.
• 1:44:48
  But I, yeah, certainly.
• 1:44:50
  And it's, it's definitely great to have, you know, more opportunities and, whew.
• 1:44:59
  I, you know, I, my, my life has not been a very linear thing.
• 1:45:04
  And so I, I don't know.
• 1:45:06
  I wish there was something as a very simple direct line to making
• 1:45:09
  things happen, but I think the more that, yeah, again, you open,
• 1:45:12
  you just have those possibilities strewn around, like, does this
• 1:45:17
  Rupert Isaacson: Exactly.
• 1:45:18
  Betsy Kahl: And people that, that instead of when someone comes to you and is like,
• 1:45:22
  I'm, I'm curious about this being that, that, that welcoming place as opposed
• 1:45:28
  to, well, you have to, you know, and it jump through, prove yourself first.
• 1:45:35
  In order to be able to, to do this, you
• 1:45:37
  Rupert Isaacson: must suffer first.
• 1:45:38
  Yes.
• 1:45:38
  Betsy Kahl: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:45:39
  And I mean, yeah, you have to have some skills and some
• 1:45:42
  training, but like, but yeah.
• 1:45:44
  How do you make that again, not, not so, so, yeah.
• 1:45:51
  Not making people feel like they're, they're getting
• 1:45:53
  like, you know, sifted out.
• 1:45:55
  Right,
• 1:45:56
  Rupert Isaacson: exactly.
• 1:45:56
  Betsy Kahl: And and so, so yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's
• 1:45:59
  complicated to say the least.
• 1:46:01
  I think it was simple.
• 1:46:02
  We'd have cracked the code, but maybe it is also simple and it's just sort of,
• 1:46:07
  yeah, just being, being willing to adapt and modify and improvise and change.
• 1:46:13
  You know, you have structures that are helpful to have, but within
• 1:46:17
  that there's a lot of space to be creative and and so, right,
• 1:46:21
  Rupert Isaacson: and I think your, your point earlier that if, if
• 1:46:23
  what we're primarily concerned with is the horse's wellbeing
• 1:46:28
  mm-hmm.
• 1:46:29
  Not in a kind of, we hate humans, we love horses, you know, sort off you humans, but
• 1:46:34
  more from the point of view of if we're expecting or we would like this horse to.
• 1:46:41
  Give wellbeing to a human.
• 1:46:43
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:46:44
  It's probably a good idea if that horse has wellbeing to give.
• 1:46:48
  And I think if, if, yeah, if our focus is there, then the rest follows.
• 1:46:52
  You know, as, you know, with our, with say for example, movement method or
• 1:46:55
  horse boy method, it's Follow the Child.
• 1:46:58
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:46:58
  And if one does that, it seems that everything else falls into place.
• 1:47:02
  But when one doesn't do that, things tend to get kind of complicated.
• 1:47:06
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:47:06
  I would posit it's a bit the same with Follow the Horse.
• 1:47:09
  Yeah.
• 1:47:10
  Where is this horse's happiness?
• 1:47:11
  Where is this horse's wellbeing?
• 1:47:13
  What does this horse really love to do?
• 1:47:15
  How do we make this horse feel as good in their body as we possibly can?
• 1:47:18
  Because that's gonna translate to the mind.
• 1:47:20
  And then if we do that,
• 1:47:24
  probably whoever comes into contact with that horse is going to benefit.
• 1:47:31
  Right.
• 1:47:33
  Betsy Kahl: One would hope.
• 1:47:33
  Right?
• 1:47:34
  One would hope.
• 1:47:35
  But yeah.
• 1:47:37
  Yeah, I, I think that sounds, sounds good.
• 1:47:41
  So, so, yeah, I'm not sure what that perfect world looked like.
• 1:47:45
  Well,
• 1:47:46
  Rupert Isaacson: I, I, I can, I can help people with that because
• 1:47:49
  I know this person called Betsy Carl, who lives in Bend, Oregon.
• 1:47:52
  And I know that if people go to Betsy, Carl 'cause I've watched her at work
• 1:47:57
  over quite a few years she will help them to understand how to put that
• 1:48:05
  equine wellbeing into their horses, which will then help them through
• 1:48:10
  a variety of methodologies, give that wellbeing to monkeys, whether
• 1:48:17
  juvenile monkeys or adult monkeys.
• 1:48:19
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:48:19
  So I think people should actually reach out to you, Betsy, as a mentor.
• 1:48:28
  Whether it's on the equine, ie dressy end, or on the therapeutic
• 1:48:35
  end or, or points in between.
• 1:48:39
  Is it all right if people contact you?
• 1:48:41
  Betsy Kahl: Yeah, yeah, always.
• 1:48:43
  I always tell people contact me, and then I just sit and wait.
• 1:48:47
  Like
• 1:48:47
  Rupert Isaacson: how would they contact you?
• 1:48:49
  Betsy Kahl: Let's see.
• 1:48:50
  I have they can contact me at betsy@wonderhorseranch.org.
• 1:48:56
  That's the nonprofit that I had in Texas, but haven't figured
• 1:49:01
  out how to do it here yet.
• 1:49:02
  But that email still works and that's probably the easiest one to spell.
• 1:49:06
  I also have that
• 1:49:07
  Rupert Isaacson: at Wonder Horse Ranch org.
• 1:49:09
  Yeah.
• 1:49:09
  Org.
• 1:49:10
  Betsy Kahl: Mm-hmm.
• 1:49:12
  Yeah.
• 1:49:13
  Okay.
• 1:49:13
  Rupert Isaacson: Okay, so listen, viewers and listeners, if you want to learn
• 1:49:18
  Horse by Method, movement Method, takin.
• 1:49:21
  As we call it now, which is all the groundwork as it's as its own therapy
• 1:49:26
  and our LIOs system of dressage, and also just the other stuff that Betsy can bring
• 1:49:32
  to the table all by herself without any involvement in me of which there's plenty.
• 1:49:37
  I do thoroughly recommend that you reach out to her as a mentor.
• 1:49:42
  She's been in this for many years.
• 1:49:44
  She has produced amazing horses that I've seen.
• 1:49:47
  She's brought healing to the lives of so many people, including my own son.
• 1:49:53
  I can't recommend her highly enough.
• 1:49:56
  You have a mentor up there in that box above me, although probably in YouTube
• 1:50:00
  she's gonna be here or here or here.
• 1:50:02
  But I'm, I'm sort of gonna hedge my bets by pointing in all four directions.
• 1:50:07
  Contact this person because she
• 1:50:11
  can do the job and can show you how to do the job in so many modalities.
• 1:50:16
  Also within the path.
• 1:50:17
  System and, and others.
• 1:50:20
  So it's Betsy Carl, is it Betsy Carl at Wonder Horse org?
• 1:50:25
  Betsy Kahl: No, it's just B-E-T-S-Y.
• 1:50:28
  At,
• 1:50:28
  Rupert Isaacson: at, it's just Betsy.
• 1:50:30
  At, okay.
• 1:50:31
  Betsy.
• 1:50:31
  Betsy Kahl: Betsy
• 1:50:31
  Rupert Isaacson: at Wonder Horse.
• 1:50:33
  Betsy Kahl: Yep.
• 1:50:34
  Rupert Isaacson: ranch.org.
• 1:50:35
  Betsy Kahl: Dot org.
• 1:50:36
  Rupert Isaacson: betsy@wonderhorseranch.org,
• 1:50:40
  reach out to her let her mentor you.
• 1:50:44
  She's a good mentor.
• 1:50:47
  Betsy Kahl: Mm-hmm.
• 1:50:48
  Yeah, sure.
• 1:50:48
  Please do.
• 1:50:49
  Yeah, I, I mean, if I can help, I will.
• 1:50:52
  Right?
• 1:50:52
  Yeah.
• 1:50:53
  I, I don't,
• 1:50:56
  I am always.
• 1:50:58
  Curious about Yeah.
• 1:50:59
  What people are seeking.
• 1:51:01
  And again, if what I've experienced in my life can be supportive
• 1:51:05
  of any way, I'll share that.
• 1:51:06
  Happily.
• 1:51:07
  But I, I will say, even if it's not with me that I do believe that learning
• 1:51:14
  the classical groundwork system is life changing for both you and your equines.
• 1:51:19
  And and always you will always have some way to Yeah.
• 1:51:25
  Connect and create something magical with them no matter the
• 1:51:28
  weather, no matter their ability.
• 1:51:31
  Right.
• 1:51:32
  It's just something that
• 1:51:33
  Rupert Isaacson: absolutely no matter whether you have an arena or not.
• 1:51:36
  Betsy Kahl: Yeah.
• 1:51:36
  Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.
• 1:51:37
  Betsy Kahl: And, and no matter what, even if something is going poorly, it
• 1:51:41
  is just, it's just the, the foundation you can return to, to, to in hand
• 1:51:46
  Rupert Isaacson: work.
• 1:51:46
  Absolutely.
• 1:51:47
  It is the key.
• 1:51:48
  Betsy Kahl: Yeah.
• 1:51:49
  Rupert Isaacson: And Betsy can teach you, so go to her.
• 1:51:52
  Betsy Kahl: Well, my horses can teach you.
• 1:51:53
  I was lucky enough to have some great horses that taught me and and
• 1:51:56
  they are happy to share as well.
• 1:51:58
  So, yeah.
• 1:52:00
  Thank you.
• 1:52:02
  Rupert Isaacson: Well, it's been a pleasure.
• 1:52:05
  Betsy Kahl: Yes, it has.
• 1:52:08
  Rupert Isaacson: I look, I look forward to the next collaboration.
• 1:52:11
  Betsy Kahl: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:52:12
  We'll see what happens.
• 1:52:13
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 1:52:14
  We'll the
• 1:52:14
  Betsy Kahl: story continues, right?
• 1:52:16
  Rupert Isaacson: It does indeed.
• 1:52:19
  Alright, my friend, I think we're gonna have you on again in a few
• 1:52:21
  months and go into some more depth.
• 1:52:24
  I'd like to, I'd like to actually go into more into the theater arts side.
• 1:52:28
  Mm.
• 1:52:28
  Yeah.
• 1:52:30
  Yeah.
• 1:52:30
  We barely touched on it this time, so maybe we'll do a, a follow up.
• 1:52:36
  Sure.
• 1:52:36
  You up for that?
• 1:52:37
  Yeah,
• 1:52:37
  Betsy Kahl: yeah.
• 1:52:38
  Always.
• 1:52:38
  Yeah, reach out, let me know.
• 1:52:41
  Rupert Isaacson: All right, good.
• 1:52:42
  And then hopefully I'll be seeing you soon.
• 1:52:45
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• 1:52:49
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