Latest / UK Column Radio / Systems, Goals, and Human Excellence | Jerm Warfare Weekly Banter

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Systems, Goals, and Human Excellence | Jerm Warfare Weekly Banter · UK Column Radio

• 0:30
  Speaker 1: My name is Jim. This is germ warfare, the battle
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: of ideas. It's just telling you now, I ran. I
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: ran from my local coffee shop to get gent time,
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: and I'm out of breath. I'm very unfitt. Well, I
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: will come on micro. How often do you run?
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: I don't run exactly, And you, Charles, every day you
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: run pills every day.
• 1:03
  Speaker 3: R I'm being insincere, but I do actually do that. Yes,
• 1:08
  Speaker 3: I swim every day and I run every day.
• 1:10
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: Swimming. Wow, okay, now that's next level because swimming is
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: pretty rough when it's cold, when it's cold in the sea. No,
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: hold on, hold on, Jim, it's always cold here. I'd
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: rather just drive. Yeah. No, well, there's there's time for you.
• 1:40
  Speaker 3: So if it's hard at the minute to run from
• 1:43
  Speaker 3: the from the coffee shop or to the coffee shop,
• 1:46
  Speaker 3: then you'll get there.
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: You just take remember be your man, Yes, yes, he
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: will be. He will help speaking which I can't remember
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: if I've asked you. But have you run the Comrades Merathon?
• 2:00
  Speaker 4: No?
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: I don't know what that is. What is that? Oh?
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: It's an ultra marathon that's held yeah in South Africa
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: every year. It's ninety three kilometers. I think it's one
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: of the longest in the world.
• 2:10
  Speaker 3: No, it's not not at ninety three ninety three kilometers,
• 2:14
  Speaker 3: it's not very far.
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: Come on, yes, it's pretty far. It's an ultra marathon.
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: I didn't say it's the furthest I said, it's one
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: of Yeah, can you run ninety three kilometers?
• 2:26
  Speaker 3: I would struggle a bit at the moment that I
• 2:28
  Speaker 3: have done, and yes, yes I can.
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: I mean, anyone can.
• 2:34
  Speaker 3: It's not you know, I think this is this is
• 2:36
  Speaker 3: where I'd like to go with some of the chat today.
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: If this is this is sure, if this is the direction,
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: not really, but yes, let's go.
• 2:45
  Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, all all of this stuff is there's there
• 2:48
  Speaker 3: is so much myth and absolute nonsense about who can
• 2:54
  Speaker 3: do what. And frankly, most people can do a lot
• 3:00
  Speaker 3: of stuff. And I think particularly where you know, endurance,
• 3:06
  Speaker 3: let's say, is concerned the reason the reason that most
• 3:09
  Speaker 3: people can't do it, or think that they can't, is
• 3:13
  Speaker 3: almost exclusively mental. If they think they can't. So people
• 3:17
  Speaker 3: who think they can't run more than a certain distance
• 3:21
  Speaker 3: therefore won't be able to run more than a certain distance.
• 3:24
  Speaker 3: But so so it's not I'm not suggesting that anyone
• 3:28
  Speaker 3: can go out there tomorrow and bash out a two
• 3:30
  Speaker 3: hour marathon. That is not going to happen. So there's
• 3:32
  Speaker 3: a there's a there's obviously here a massive kind of
• 3:37
  Speaker 3: graduation with all of this. But the suggestion that some
• 3:42
  Speaker 3: people just you know or you know certain say, just
• 3:44
  Speaker 3: can't do that, well, it's really not true. It's a
• 3:47
  Speaker 3: lot of other things that need to fall into place.
• 3:49
  Speaker 3: And yes, conditioning yourself to be able to do something
• 3:54
  Speaker 3: clearly is a really important part of it. But if
• 3:56
  Speaker 3: you if you don't start absolutely certain that you can
• 3:59
  Speaker 3: do it, then yeah, I mean, it's not gonna happen.
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: But sorry.
• 4:03
  Speaker 3: The reason I put you up on ninety three k's
• 4:05
  Speaker 3: is that that is quite an interesting distance because that's
• 4:09
  Speaker 3: just under sixty miles. And I know this will sound
• 4:13
  Speaker 3: silly to anyone who hasn't covered that kind of distance.
• 4:17
  Speaker 3: This will sound silly and it will sound sort of blase,
• 4:19
  Speaker 3: but actually going up to that sort of distance is
• 4:22
  Speaker 3: quite is quite realistic. What happens after that, I've always
• 4:28
  Speaker 3: found very interesting, which is that the body does definitely
• 4:31
  Speaker 3: start to behave differently after pretty much that distance, maybe
• 4:35
  Speaker 3: a little bit more but it was sixty seventy miles,
• 4:38
  Speaker 3: and then it does become a different game and you
• 4:41
  Speaker 3: start to get well you can Again, it will vary
• 4:44
  Speaker 3: by individual, but I think there is a people talk
• 4:48
  Speaker 3: about from a running running point of view, a wall
• 4:53
  Speaker 3: hitting a wall when you're running a marathon. Again, I
• 4:55
  Speaker 3: think to a certain extent that's psychological, but that certainly
• 4:59
  Speaker 3: in Mike's it has been somewhere around the sort of
• 5:02
  Speaker 3: twenty two mile mark. But I would say on a
• 5:06
  Speaker 3: longer distance thing, sixty miles is a distance beyond which
• 5:13
  Speaker 3: I don't know exactly what it is, but the body
• 5:15
  Speaker 3: wants to start doing stuff differently. But to get to
• 5:18
  Speaker 3: get to that point is absolutely realistic. It is, and
• 5:25
  Speaker 3: it's you know, it's just becoming attuned mentally to being
• 5:31
  Speaker 3: able to spare because obviously it's time, you know, to
• 5:34
  Speaker 3: run to cover sixty miles because typically and I'm assuming
• 5:38
  Speaker 3: sorry and I've already forgotten the name. What did you
• 5:40
  Speaker 3: say the race was called? It's called the Comrades Marathon.
• 5:43
  Speaker 3: I'll tell you about it than a second. Okay, yeah,
• 5:45
  Speaker 3: do because I'd be fascinating because basically, again, are there
• 5:48
  Speaker 3: are absolutely people that do do this stuff. On a
• 5:51
  Speaker 3: very regular basis, and to me, I find it bizarre
• 5:56
  Speaker 3: some people do this on tracks like sort of flat running,
• 6:00
  Speaker 3: which I can't see the point of myself, which is
• 6:04
  Speaker 3: not absolutely not to rubbish people doing it. I think
• 6:07
  Speaker 3: it's great that people do get out and do that
• 6:09
  Speaker 3: sort of stuff. But for me, the only point in
• 6:10
  Speaker 3: doing this is to is to see places, you know,
• 6:14
  Speaker 3: to cover amazing roots and countryside and landscape, and that
• 6:18
  Speaker 3: typically means that you're gonna you're gonna be going up, down, up, down,
• 6:20
  Speaker 3: up down, which is part of the fun of it,
• 6:23
  Speaker 3: but it does make it makes it harder work in
• 6:26
  Speaker 3: some in some respects with they're actually trying to do
• 6:29
  Speaker 3: the same thing the whole time, so running on the
• 6:31
  Speaker 3: flat I think gets completely exhausting after after a shorter
• 6:36
  Speaker 3: period of time.
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: Anyway. Yeah, but it's gone to talk about the well
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: just quickly. So just just to qualify, they obviously are
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: marathons longer than the Comrades, but it's it's classified as
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: a single day marathon, so you get, yeah, very very
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: long marathons that take multiple days.
• 6:54
  Speaker 4: This one.
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so yeah, here you go. The Comrades of Marathon
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: is the world's older and largest ultramarathon born from the
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: aftermath of war and grown into one of South Africa's
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: most iconic sporting events. Yes the brief summary the race
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: was the brainchild of Vic Clapham, a World War One
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: veteran who had endured a grueling two thousand, seven hundred
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: kilometer route march through Germany through German East Africa during
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: the war, and he wanted to create a living memorial
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: to the South African soldiers who had fallen in the conflict,
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: and he believed the best way to honor them was
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: a unique test of human endurance. The constitution of the
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: race states that one of the primary aims is to
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: celebrate mankind spread over blah blah blah, blah blah. Basically,
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: it's between two cities, Durban and Peter Marrisburg, and it's
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: got a huge amount of ups and downs along the way,
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: and each year they alternate the direction between the two,
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: so one year it will be mostly downhill and the
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: next year it will be mostly uphill and so on.
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: And one of the record holders is a guy called
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: Bruce ford Ice who I had the great privilege of
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: interviewing he one and I think nine times in a
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: row and he competed it, I think twenty nine times,
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: and he unfortunately can't run anymore because he got the
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: COVID JAB and he has stated publicly that it has
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: stopped him from running. How's that.
• 8:16
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's yeah, well that is that is horrific, but
• 8:21
  Speaker 3: amazing that he has achieved what he has.
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: That's yeah. Yeah, yeah, you go. So in terms of
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: people who run it each year, there's about twenty five
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: to thirty thousand people that run it.
• 8:33
  Speaker 3: There you go. Yeah, I thought you might have known
• 8:35
  Speaker 3: about it. No, no, no, but I do know. So
• 8:38
  Speaker 3: it's it's like an interesting one. I mean, it's it's
• 8:43
  Speaker 3: become that's great, I think.
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 8:47
  Speaker 3: I mean it's really not for me to pass judgment
• 8:50
  Speaker 3: on it, but as an observation, you know, this this
• 8:53
  Speaker 3: sort of thing, the ultra type of event has become
• 9:00
  Speaker 3: has become really big business. And I don't know, I've
• 9:04
  Speaker 3: sort of got reservations about that.
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: That's all I've read it.
• 9:07
  Speaker 3: It's too far right, Well okay, yeah, but anyway, Yeah,
• 9:13
  Speaker 3: But all I would say is if anyone's listening thinking
• 9:16
  Speaker 3: that in any way that stuff appeals, then I would say.
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, get out there and go for it.
• 9:22
  Speaker 3: But not before you've had a bit of a look
• 9:25
  Speaker 3: at some of the experiences that some people have had
• 9:29
  Speaker 3: in this regard, and timn Oaks in fact, would have
• 9:32
  Speaker 3: a lot to say about it. But although he personally
• 9:37
  Speaker 3: was shorter distance in his own career. But I think
• 9:44
  Speaker 3: the person who I've seen, which you know, I thought,
• 9:48
  Speaker 3: gave a very, very sort of convincing account of how
• 9:51
  Speaker 3: to prepare for this is called film Mafotone, who I
• 9:54
  Speaker 3: think I may have mentioned before, and his whole philosophy
• 9:57
  Speaker 3: is to train slow, so you you build up your
• 10:02
  Speaker 3: stamina through training slowly rather than trying to thrash yourself
• 10:06
  Speaker 3: from the start. Anyway, I won't get into all that night,
• 10:08
  Speaker 3: but but you know, if anyone's interested in this kind
• 10:12
  Speaker 3: of thing, I would say, absolutely go for it, because
• 10:13
  Speaker 3: it is. It is incredibly exhilarating, you know, covering huge
• 10:17
  Speaker 3: distances and going up and down hills. It's just all
• 10:20
  Speaker 3: the fun. Do you notice how quiet mic is?
• 10:25
  Speaker 4: No, I was, actually I was. I was just thinking
• 10:27
  Speaker 4: about what Charles said about, you know, hitting a wall,
• 10:31
  Speaker 4: and you know, because my thing has always been cycling,
• 10:34
  Speaker 4: and and you know, one hundred miles a Doddle one
• 10:38
  Speaker 4: hundred and forty miles less, so in one to button
• 10:42
  Speaker 4: one in one go. Yeah, and and it was it
• 10:46
  Speaker 4: was always well, it was always fascinating to me that
• 10:50
  Speaker 4: I suddenly that collapse, let's call it, came on and
• 10:55
  Speaker 4: and suddenly everything was agony. But I'm just not sure.
• 11:01
  Speaker 4: I was just interested to know a little bit more
• 11:03
  Speaker 4: about what actually happens there.
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: Physiologically. You mean, what you're what he's doing.
• 11:09
  Speaker 3: Yeah, well that's a very good question, and I and
• 11:12
  Speaker 3: I won't pretend to know, but what I would say
• 11:16
  Speaker 3: is that I think this is where diet, both prior
• 11:22
  Speaker 3: to and during the event, will make a massive difference,
• 11:26
  Speaker 3: because I think you see this is I find this fascinating.
• 11:30
  Speaker 3: Scott Jurek is I'm not sure if he's current, but anyway,
• 11:36
  Speaker 3: certainly a time ago he was. He was absolutely a big,
• 11:41
  Speaker 3: big name for a very good reason. And he was
• 11:46
  Speaker 3: notable because I think he had he had eaten meat
• 11:50
  Speaker 3: and animal protein but then decided that he wasn't going
• 11:53
  Speaker 3: to and that he attributed a lot of his success
• 11:55
  Speaker 3: to not eating those things and concentrating on what he
• 12:00
  Speaker 3: was described described as a plant based diet. And what
• 12:03
  Speaker 3: was notable was that he he I think, broke the
• 12:07
  Speaker 3: record for the Appalachian Trail in the States, which I
• 12:11
  Speaker 3: forget exactly how long it is. It's a hell of
• 12:13
  Speaker 3: a long way, and he completed it in many days.
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: And what was.
• 12:21
  Speaker 3: Sort of bizarre but fascinating was that somebody broke that
• 12:25
  Speaker 3: record not that long afterwards, and I think existed on
• 12:29
  Speaker 3: a diet of pretty much the worst stuff you can imagine,
• 12:33
  Speaker 3: I mean, just sugar, chocolate and sort of touring filled
• 12:38
  Speaker 3: energy drinks. And yet his body endured and he carried
• 12:43
  Speaker 3: on and he broke that record. So how either of
• 12:48
  Speaker 3: those men will be, you know, sort of ten years hence,
• 12:52
  Speaker 3: I don't know, and I can't there's no way I
• 12:55
  Speaker 3: can say, well, because he did that, he will be in.
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: Better shape whatever.
• 12:59
  Speaker 3: But but I do think that a lot of what
• 13:02
  Speaker 3: we're describing, that that sort of wall effect will be.
• 13:09
  Speaker 3: It'll be some sort of deficiency point at which your
• 13:13
  Speaker 3: body is needing and wanting to repair itself.
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: But I find that but the.
• 13:19
  Speaker 3: Setting the background to all this, which is that humans
• 13:24
  Speaker 3: could or can in effect outrun almost anything else, in fact,
• 13:29
  Speaker 3: pretty much anything else, which is, you know, supposedly why
• 13:33
  Speaker 3: we are where we are, because we were able to hunt,
• 13:35
  Speaker 3: and we were able to pursue prey for such a
• 13:38
  Speaker 3: long time that it would just it would basically expire
• 13:42
  Speaker 3: if it hadn't already been caught. And that's interesting, and
• 13:46
  Speaker 3: I don't think we can ignore that. But what, but
• 13:49
  Speaker 3: how does that?
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: You know? Out running?
• 13:52
  Speaker 3: We were talking about wilderbeast or a Vilda beast before
• 13:55
  Speaker 3: we started recording. How long does it actually take to
• 13:59
  Speaker 3: run a villerbies to exhaustion. I don't know, but I
• 14:02
  Speaker 3: would bet that it's less than sixty miles. So it's
• 14:05
  Speaker 3: quite interesting to think that that are our limit, as
• 14:08
  Speaker 3: it were, or you know, roughly the point at which
• 14:12
  Speaker 3: we can really discern a change and whether it doesn't
• 14:15
  Speaker 3: matter whether it's riding a bike or running or whatever
• 14:17
  Speaker 3: it is. But but that I'm sure would be beyond
• 14:23
  Speaker 3: the capacity of any animal that we have previously hunted.
• 14:26
  Speaker 3: So it's just it's quite interesting going back, you know,
• 14:29
  Speaker 3: and comparing what it is that we do now with
• 14:31
  Speaker 3: what we understand that our forebears did.
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: You know, It's interesting how unbelievably useless humans are physically though,
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: I mean, if you think about us compared to all
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: other mammals, we are remarkably weak, but our strength lives up. Yeah,
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: you know, that's and that's why we are the apex predator,
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: so to speak, because we can use our brain in
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: a way that most mammals can't. But I mean physically
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: we are to useless. We took our little boy to
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: there's a farm nearby with with lions and tigers and
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: leopards and whatever. You can go and watch them feed them,
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: and standing right against the side of that fence next
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: to a lion that's literally a meter away, you cannot
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: comprehend the size of that animal. And you realize even
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: if you ran the you know, Hussein bolt, it doesn't matter,
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: You're not going to get away from that thing. We
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: just even if you climb a tree, well, a leopard
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: will take you down. So we don't really have a
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: chance unless there's a fence between us or you know,
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: a gun in our hand.
• 15:43
  Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I mean hopefully you wouldn't be in a
• 15:45
  Speaker 3: position in the first place where that that outcome is
• 15:49
  Speaker 3: even possible, and that, you know, I mean, we could
• 15:52
  Speaker 3: go off down there's a whole sort of man and
• 15:56
  Speaker 3: our intervention in an awful lot of things that you know,
• 15:59
  Speaker 3: should So it's just such a difficult one. I mean, no,
• 16:02
  Speaker 3: of course, I totally, I totally agree with you all
• 16:05
  Speaker 3: that I wouldn't say I wouldn't I wouldn't agree with you.
• 16:09
  Speaker 3: Well sorry, Today, Yes, I think in so many respects,
• 16:12
  Speaker 3: and we've said this a lot before, Yes, we have
• 16:14
  Speaker 3: become sort of physically quite useless. Not I mean, you know,
• 16:19
  Speaker 3: that's that's in general, I think, and I think also.
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: That and more more.
• 16:23
  Speaker 3: No, that's I think that's the thing. It's a deterioration
• 16:26
  Speaker 3: because I think that I don't think we'd have been
• 16:29
  Speaker 3: having this conversation fifty years ago. I think I think
• 16:33
  Speaker 3: we'd see around us that people Barnard were in much
• 16:36
  Speaker 3: better shape than they are today, both in physical appearance
• 16:39
  Speaker 3: but also in the way that they eat and the
• 16:40
  Speaker 3: way that their body is is tuned to a our
• 16:44
  Speaker 3: activity they need to be able to do. But but no,
• 16:46
  Speaker 3: I mean, just to go back to the point, do
• 16:48
  Speaker 3: we do humans do have physical attributes that absolutely are useful?
• 16:51
  Speaker 3: I mean the fact that we can we can run,
• 16:55
  Speaker 3: we can swim, we can climb, we you know that
• 16:58
  Speaker 3: there are although we might not be the best at
• 17:01
  Speaker 3: any of those things, the fact is we can do
• 17:03
  Speaker 3: all of them, which does make us extraordinarily useful or versatile.
• 17:08
  Speaker 3: And when you combine that with exactly what you're talking about,
• 17:11
  Speaker 3: the mental faculties, the mental capacity, and it's no, it
• 17:15
  Speaker 3: is no great surprise to find that we do do
• 17:17
  Speaker 3: what we do compared with animals. But again also I
• 17:23
  Speaker 3: don't yeah, you know, the brain the capacity brain capacity thing.
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's very interesting.
• 17:28
  Speaker 3: I mean, and it's that line with instinct and how
• 17:31
  Speaker 3: much do we operate by instinct if that's the right
• 17:34
  Speaker 3: word for it these days, I would have thought not
• 17:36
  Speaker 3: very much. Whereas animals, you know, you watch animals from
• 17:41
  Speaker 3: birth doing stuff that they absolutely seem to know how
• 17:45
  Speaker 3: to do in a way that humans is extraordinary. But
• 17:50
  Speaker 3: you know, at childbirth, for the vast and genority of people,
• 17:54
  Speaker 3: I think certainly for anyone who would have been listening
• 17:56
  Speaker 3: to this, pretty much everybody would have been instructed, you know,
• 17:59
  Speaker 3: a mother would been instructed what to do with the baby.
• 18:03
  Speaker 3: I mean that that is really an unbelievable position for
• 18:08
  Speaker 3: a species to be in. We have to actually sort
• 18:11
  Speaker 3: of describe with words, rather than it just being immediately
• 18:15
  Speaker 3: obvious what should happen?
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: A microphone on mute? Now I was going to say,
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: shut you out. Yeah, but you mentioned now, I mean
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: the fact that we're becoming more and more useless. I mean,
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: we've had this discussion on shows and and and in
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: actual fact, one can argue, I think fairly convincingly that
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: there is an agenda to make people more and more useless.
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: You've all Horarius use the term useless eaters, you know,
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: becoming fat and just sitting on the couch and everything
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: coming to you and you don't do anything and you
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: live with the welfare state. But that's actually directly linked
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: to what you're talking about with the running. You know,
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: it's fine to laugh at ultramarathons, but actually it's a
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: good thing. I mean, it tests not just your physical ability,
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: and this goes beyond running, I guess, but it's test
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: it's pushing your not just your physical capability, but also
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: your mental capability. Because if I know that I'm going
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: to run andre kilometers or cycle five hundre kilometers, there's
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: a lot of psychology going on. They mic.
• 19:20
  Speaker 4: There is. And for example, if I was if I
• 19:26
  Speaker 4: was doing a climb on the on the bike, I
• 19:29
  Speaker 4: would never look up the hill. I would just stare
• 19:32
  Speaker 4: at at the tarmac. In front of me. I could
• 19:34
  Speaker 4: never if I if I looked up the hill, that
• 19:36
  Speaker 4: would be immediately de moralizing. That's so I just I
• 19:40
  Speaker 4: just never under stared and concentrated on what I was doing.
• 19:44
  Speaker 4: And so, yes, there's a lot of psychology in it.
• 19:50
  Speaker 4: I mean, there's there's physical reality in it as well,
• 19:52
  Speaker 4: but but I think most of it is what you
• 19:55
  Speaker 4: think you're going to be able to do. But I mean,
• 19:58
  Speaker 4: and and getting up into you know, because I longer
• 20:00
  Speaker 4: trips and whatnot, and getting up and doing one hundred,
• 20:03
  Speaker 4: one hundred and twenty miles every day for a week
• 20:05
  Speaker 4: or two weeks, that's that's something that a lot of
• 20:10
  Speaker 4: people would find extremely daunting. In fact, it's not that hard. Obviously,
• 20:16
  Speaker 4: you've got to be prepared, as Charles said, you've got
• 20:18
  Speaker 4: to do a bit of practice, but it's not that
• 20:22
  Speaker 4: hard as long as you got the right attitude.
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: Good byproduct of this conversation is that it actually feeds
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: into the whole idea that we must spend more time
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: outside anyway, doing activities and getting away from all the
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: sort of technocratic positions that are around us. So, I mean,
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: it's a good conversation. I think everybody would agree that
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: doing some form of activity is a good thing. And
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: so that's why I enjoy this kind of conversation because
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: it's motivating, it's uplifting. And in order for you to
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: run an ultramarathon, Charles, you also have to have the
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: correct diet. So therefore they are further.
• 21:00
  Speaker 4: Well, hold on a second, let me let me just
• 21:02
  Speaker 4: let me just challenge on that, because what I view
• 21:04
  Speaker 4: as the correct diet and what others view is the
• 21:07
  Speaker 4: correct diet might be different things. It is fascinating because
• 21:10
  Speaker 4: Charles was talking about earlier about this whole business of
• 21:14
  Speaker 4: someone running long distances on sugar and other kinds of stuff.
• 21:18
  Speaker 4: But you look at the kind of because obviously, you know,
• 21:23
  Speaker 4: Tour de France teams for example, or or top flight
• 21:26
  Speaker 4: cycling teams have are spending lots of money employing people
• 21:31
  Speaker 4: that are supposedly dietary experts. But even you know, today
• 21:37
  Speaker 4: most most top flight cyclists are eating car mostly carb
• 21:42
  Speaker 4: based diets. Yes, eat protein as well, but huge, huge
• 21:47
  Speaker 4: quantities of carbs. And they have flirted with experimentation with
• 21:53
  Speaker 4: keto diets and so on to see whether that works,
• 21:56
  Speaker 4: but they always seem to come back to the carbs.
• 22:01
  Speaker 4: It doesn't.
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, no, it doesn't work bad. But Tim Milks has
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: explained this from a sports science perspective. People who are
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: engaging in Tour de France and ultramarathons and these sorts
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: of physical exertions, these are on the fringe. These are
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: not day to day average joes, right, who don't exert
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: that much energy. So they do, as a result, consume
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: a different kind of diet which then gets burned up
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: and used in a different way. Because not everybody runs
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: one hundred meter sprint every single day, for example, so
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: Usain Bolt would have a vastly different diet to average person.
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: Does that make sense?
• 22:48
  Speaker 4: Yes, absolutely, it does make sense. So you know, okay,
• 22:55
  Speaker 4: So for example, take the question, the question is what
• 22:57
  Speaker 4: is the right diet for these kinds of these kinds
• 22:59
  Speaker 4: of I.
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: Don't know, but remember Michael Phopps he I remember watching
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: a video on his diet. He was consuming something like
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: ten thousand calories per day. Right now, if any of
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: the three of us, or maybe Charles excluded, was Charles runs,
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: So Mike, you and me, we were to consume ten
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: thousand calories put down average, I think we would severely suffer.
• 23:22
  Speaker 4: I think I've demonstrated that a few years ago.
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: But the point is that Michael Phops wasn't your average
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: Joe and so therefore he could get away with that.
• 23:38
  Speaker 4: A lot of people that I know from years back
• 23:44
  Speaker 4: that were physically active when they were younger and then
• 23:46
  Speaker 4: became an active through worker or family or whatever it
• 23:51
  Speaker 4: happens to be. You know, those were the people that
• 23:54
  Speaker 4: put on lots with very very quickly because the lifestyle
• 23:58
  Speaker 4: changed but the diet didn't. And that's a big mistake
• 24:02
  Speaker 4: that people often make. Wants to get into their forties
• 24:05
  Speaker 4: or whatever, and they start not doing the physical exercise
• 24:08
  Speaker 4: that they were doing because of other time demands. And
• 24:14
  Speaker 4: so that's one problem that a lot of people face.
• 24:18
  Speaker 4: But you know, I'm starting to see that again, obesity
• 24:27
  Speaker 4: in children being used as the excuse for taking us
• 24:31
  Speaker 4: down the road of sort of the whole sort of
• 24:34
  Speaker 4: fifteen minutes of the agenda, because we're starting to see
• 24:37
  Speaker 4: councils in the UK close roads so that children could
• 24:43
  Speaker 4: get out and play for set time during the day
• 24:47
  Speaker 4: at this point in time. But nonetheless, this is something
• 24:50
  Speaker 4: which is starting to be ruled out across the country.
• 24:53
  Speaker 4: So again children are being used as the excuse for
• 24:59
  Speaker 4: pursuing an agen and that otherwise wouldn't be in any
• 25:02
  Speaker 4: way popular. But of course, I mean, in fairness, I've
• 25:08
  Speaker 4: got to say there is there has been where there
• 25:10
  Speaker 4: have been changes in you know, for example, cycling now
• 25:15
  Speaker 4: I would be significantly more risky endeavor than it was
• 25:21
  Speaker 4: thirty forty years ago because just because of the levels
• 25:24
  Speaker 4: of traffic and also the standard of the driving and
• 25:26
  Speaker 4: so on, and so it's the same. It's the same
• 25:29
  Speaker 4: for kids that are living in cities. It can be tricky,
• 25:32
  Speaker 4: but there's still there's lots of parks for kids to
• 25:35
  Speaker 4: go to, so if they really want to go out,
• 25:36
  Speaker 4: they don't have to close roads. But they're choosing to
• 25:39
  Speaker 4: do it this way because that's pushing the agenda along.
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: You can also scale down the whole diet thing and
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: tasted on yourself. I mean, if you are a sedentary
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: kind of person, you sit me on a computer nine
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: hours a day, simply eat a full chocolate bot every
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: single day and see what happens over a month, and
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: then don't eat a chocolate bar every single day for
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: a month and see what happens.
• 26:04
  Speaker 4: Obviously, I'd like to say that German is not suggesting
• 26:07
  Speaker 4: that anybody should do this. He's just saying that if
• 26:10
  Speaker 4: you did do it, you might see some kind of I'd.
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: Come Yeah, I mean, I mean that's and that's just
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: basically sugar and and I mean, I think it's pretty
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: obvious that you're not going to have a net benefit
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: from a chocolate every single day if you're sitting nine
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: hours be on a computer. However, if you have a
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: chocolate every single day and you are highly active, you'll
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: probably see a much smaller net negative. I don't know,
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: but it just seems absolutely logical. Yeah, I'm afraid to
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: say nice for the most part of you, as I'm
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: not well, I'm not talking about every single person.
• 26:49
  Speaker 4: Now.
• 26:49
  Speaker 3: The trouble is that that it just reminds me a
• 26:52
  Speaker 3: little bit of, you know, yet another survey coming from
• 26:55
  Speaker 3: the British Heart Foundation or whoever it is saying, oh,
• 26:58
  Speaker 3: you know, truck drivers are great, this risk of this,
• 27:01
  Speaker 3: that and the other, and no account is ever taken
• 27:04
  Speaker 3: of of all the other factors. So, you know, yes,
• 27:09
  Speaker 3: for one person who sits and has a chocolate bar religiously,
• 27:14
  Speaker 3: you know, following your following your advice, sitson has their
• 27:18
  Speaker 3: chocolate bar, every day, and you know, and they and
• 27:23
  Speaker 3: they keep their keep their calendar of what's been happening.
• 27:26
  Speaker 3: You know, you have no idea what else is going
• 27:28
  Speaker 3: on in their life, So to attribute any change to
• 27:32
  Speaker 3: whether or not they're consuming chocolate bar is difficult.
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: I know.
• 27:34
  Speaker 3: Sorry, I'm not just having a go at you, but
• 27:36
  Speaker 3: you know what I mean, this is the problem with
• 27:37
  Speaker 3: all this stuff. Yea, how they go out of absolutely,
• 27:42
  Speaker 3: I mean I only get only get one go a week.
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but so this is this is the trouble, and
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: this is actually just on that.
• 27:52
  Speaker 3: Whilst I totally agree with you about people getting outside
• 27:57
  Speaker 3: and and getting that dual benit of appreciating what's outside,
• 28:01
  Speaker 3: being in touch with what's going on outside, and exercising
• 28:05
  Speaker 3: body and mind, because you really do.
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: I defy anybody to go for a long walk or a.
• 28:14
  Speaker 3: Run or bike rider, whatever it is and not come
• 28:17
  Speaker 3: back with at least three really positive thoughts about life,
• 28:22
  Speaker 3: or to have unlocked some problem that you couldn't really
• 28:26
  Speaker 3: see your way around until you went out and suddenly,
• 28:28
  Speaker 3: without really even trying, you just resolved it so that
• 28:32
  Speaker 3: the benefits are so many. However, like everything else in
• 28:36
  Speaker 3: today's world, it is just there to be hijacked. So
• 28:41
  Speaker 3: you know, look at the result of what seems really
• 28:44
  Speaker 3: well intentioned, for example, getting young children involved in say
• 28:49
  Speaker 3: weekly sort of football stuff, and then twenty years later,
• 28:54
  Speaker 3: what is the biggest thing in their life. It's some
• 28:57
  Speaker 3: sort of tribal identity with a football club that they
• 29:01
  Speaker 3: never became good enough at football to actually play for.
• 29:05
  Speaker 3: But this has assumed a level of importance to the
• 29:10
  Speaker 3: detriment of so many other things. So in effect it
• 29:13
  Speaker 3: is possible. And I'm not just singling out football fans,
• 29:16
  Speaker 3: and I know this is sort of a soft target,
• 29:18
  Speaker 3: as it were, but it's just because everyone can identify
• 29:21
  Speaker 3: with it. It's just an easy one because look at
• 29:25
  Speaker 3: all the stuff that's changing around you, look at all
• 29:27
  Speaker 3: the harms that really are being done, and yet the
• 29:31
  Speaker 3: most important thing is, let's say, still that football club
• 29:36
  Speaker 3: or whatever it is.
• 29:36
  Speaker 4: Now.
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: I'm not at all trying to.
• 29:39
  Speaker 3: Say that that shouldn't happen at all, but it's just
• 29:43
  Speaker 3: that it's so easy for any of these things to
• 29:46
  Speaker 3: be highjacked, which is slightly why I have, as I say,
• 29:50
  Speaker 3: my reservations about the ultra culture, because it has become
• 29:56
  Speaker 3: an industry and hanging off it are all the you know,
• 30:01
  Speaker 3: like you'd expect, all the sort of food and drink
• 30:03
  Speaker 3: and clothing and everything else. But the point is that, yes,
• 30:08
  Speaker 3: people are getting out there and they are getting fit,
• 30:11
  Speaker 3: they're getting interested in diet. There you know, there are
• 30:13
  Speaker 3: awful lot of positives. But the problem is that those
• 30:16
  Speaker 3: positives can come with blinkers and then suddenly people are
• 30:20
  Speaker 3: concentrating on this stuff and they are not looking at
• 30:24
  Speaker 3: anything else in the world. Now I might be asking
• 30:27
  Speaker 3: too much of people, but I think it should be
• 30:30
  Speaker 3: possible to do both to make sure that your connection
• 30:34
  Speaker 3: with the outside world and becoming fitter and healthier and
• 30:39
  Speaker 3: just you know, trying to get the most you can
• 30:41
  Speaker 3: out of life should be possible to achieve whilst being
• 30:45
  Speaker 3: circumspect about other stuff and not not you know, not
• 30:48
  Speaker 3: losing touch with with other forms of reality or the
• 30:52
  Speaker 3: when which the world is changing or being forced to change.
• 30:55
  Speaker 3: And in an actual fact, I would say that if
• 30:58
  Speaker 3: you do do the it's sort of outdoor fresh air
• 31:02
  Speaker 3: fitness bit, actually the rest of it becomes easier to
• 31:05
  Speaker 3: see because it's so obviously wrong and and you know,
• 31:10
  Speaker 3: or you you you gather your you gather your strength,
• 31:14
  Speaker 3: you gather your wits and you work out how you're
• 31:17
  Speaker 3: going to deal with any of these things. So I
• 31:18
  Speaker 3: think the I think the benefits are enormous, but I
• 31:21
  Speaker 3: don't think they're necessarily universal, as I say, because of
• 31:24
  Speaker 3: the potential for hijacking like so many.
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: And you're talking about approaching things holistically and or guess
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: I think, so.
• 31:29
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, if it's all possible,
• 31:33
  Speaker 3: And I hope that doesn't sound I don't know what
• 31:37
  Speaker 3: sort of whimsical or no, I think it's completely fake.
• 31:39
  Speaker 3: It's completely fair. Yeah, I just think it's realistic and
• 31:42
  Speaker 3: it's the way that it's the way that it should
• 31:43
  Speaker 3: be done. But no, I mean, of course, fundamentally, I'm
• 31:47
  Speaker 3: absolutely in favor of people getting out and about and
• 31:51
  Speaker 3: you know, and also not I think in a whilst,
• 31:54
  Speaker 3: I if the stimulus comes through some sort of organized
• 31:59
  Speaker 3: coordinate whatever it is, whether that be team, sport or whatever,
• 32:02
  Speaker 3: that's that is completely fine. But I do think that
• 32:05
  Speaker 3: there is greater benefit when people are actually doing stuff
• 32:10
  Speaker 3: on their own terms. So whether that is you just
• 32:13
  Speaker 3: you set up your own football kick about or your
• 32:16
  Speaker 3: own sort of cricket on the beach or whatever, or
• 32:19
  Speaker 3: you just set off into the hills, you know, with
• 32:22
  Speaker 3: with an idea of what you want to do, but
• 32:24
  Speaker 3: no one who's actually necessarily coordinating coordinating that for you.
• 32:29
  Speaker 3: You know, the the onus is on you, and I
• 32:31
  Speaker 3: think that's another It's just another area where life has
• 32:36
  Speaker 3: changed so much. I mean, the level of responsibility that
• 32:38
  Speaker 3: people have for their own lives now, in general terms,
• 32:42
  Speaker 3: is so much less than it was because of all
• 32:45
  Speaker 3: these enormous tentacles that have you know, pushed their way
• 32:50
  Speaker 3: into every aspect of everybody's lives, and the you know,
• 32:55
  Speaker 3: for the last majority of people, their entire day is
• 32:58
  Speaker 3: run by a teaphane note as absurd.
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: It's an interesting parallel to what you're saying. Scott Adams,
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: Drew Dilbert. I was on my podcast twice before I
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: joined UK column and I was unable to get him
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: on because you've got cancer. He argued very strongly in
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: favor of systems rather than goals. So in other words,
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: if you want to become a parlor tour, you want
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: to do an ultramarathon or any of these sort of extremities,
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: these are what you're referring to, Charles as focusing on
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: that on that sort of ultra extreme culture, and it's
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: it's a it's a goal because it's not a lifestyle.
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: You don't run an ultramarathon as a lifestyle. It's just
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: something you're trying to do because it's goats.
• 33:46
  Speaker 4: Jam. I don't think I agree with that. I mean,
• 33:48
  Speaker 4: if you look at no, I think I think the
• 33:50
  Speaker 4: people that take part in ultramarathons as a routine thing
• 33:54
  Speaker 4: are absolutely living a lifestyle or extreme climbing or you know,
• 34:00
  Speaker 4: any of these cycling, whatever it happens to be, any
• 34:02
  Speaker 4: of these types of relatively extreme sports. It is a
• 34:08
  Speaker 4: lifestyle for people and everything is about that. Their entire
• 34:11
  Speaker 4: lives are built around that.
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: Okay, right, right, right, I get what you're saying. Oh okay, yes, okay,
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: Well then in that sense, sure, but the focus is
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: that that fringe aspect of their life. Everything is built
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: around that extremity, if that makes sense. Yes, So what
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: Scott was arguing was not really against that, but he
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: was saying that those sorts of things eventually, they don't
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: have longevity. They eventually die out. You get old and
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: you get tired and you don't want to do it anymore. Whatever,
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: And so he was arguing more in favor of systems. So,
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: in other words, you do a whole lot of things
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: like you're saying, Charles, and you do them well, and
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: those systems that you have in place or what will
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: last you to your end of days, as opposed to
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: hyper focusing on individual things like you know, ten thousand
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: calories per day, because you can't do that until you're
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: ninety five years old.
• 35:12
  Speaker 4: I just thought i'd say, remember, it's an example of
• 35:15
  Speaker 4: a system.
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I think yeah, I'm not quite that good.
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: Keep yeah, keep going. So all right, so you need
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: to be for the whole.
• 35:25
  Speaker 4: Now, how are you going to get out of this?
• 35:26
  Speaker 4: What I'm looking forward to? A whole?
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: It's it's what, it's what, Scott, it's what Scott would
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: what do you argue? Quite a lot systems rather than goals?
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: So okay, so a system would okay, okay? Would does philosophy?
• 35:40
  Speaker 3: I mean, you know, you have a you have an
• 35:43
  Speaker 3: idea about life, and then and then you pick the
• 35:46
  Speaker 3: things that you do according to your philosophy.
• 35:49
  Speaker 4: Is that is that? Do you mean that? No?
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: No, No, that's that's no, that's all what you're saying. Okay, So,
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: so as best as I understood because now I'm going
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: to go back a few years because I haven't spoken
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: to him.
• 35:58
  Speaker 4: That's what I mean. You dug yourself a bit all here.
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: So okay, so let's say you you go to the
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: gym regularly. You're gymming for the sake of general health
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: and for general improvement. But if you go to the
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: gym and you're taking creating and you're really pumping iron
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: because you just there's a goal that you're aiming for.
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: What he argued was that that goal is superficial and
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: what happens after that you then have to then either
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: create a new goal or you just go back to
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: how you work. Whereas a system is a permanent it's
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: a permanent structure.
• 36:28
  Speaker 4: It does it?
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: Does it make more sense? I think to a degree.
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: If you're yes, I think so.
• 36:37
  Speaker 3: I mean if on the say, the gym weight thing,
• 36:41
  Speaker 3: do you mean because that goal is not really.
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: You want to become a pilifter? Yeah, you want to
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: become a pilifter. Now the average person doesn't want to
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: become a powerlifter. Yeah, okay, So becoming a polifter you
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: become a part of To say that you've become a
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: part offter, it's because you want to lift the absolute
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: heaviest dead deadlift that you can ever do in your life,
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: and you might break records.
• 37:02
  Speaker 3: Yeah, but but are you saying that that that would
• 37:06
  Speaker 3: that would work if you if you had an overarching
• 37:10
  Speaker 3: system which was all about, you know, the benefit that
• 37:15
  Speaker 3: you provided to your family or your immediate society by
• 37:20
  Speaker 3: being in the best possible condition and blah blah blah,
• 37:23
  Speaker 3: and powerlifting was something that took you in that direction,
• 37:28
  Speaker 3: and therefore it fits into a system.
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: Does that work or not?
• 37:34
  Speaker 4: Maybe?
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: I mean if it's if it has longevity, I think
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: is where the underlying thrid comes from. Is it short lived?
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: Always it long lived? I guess is what Scott was arguing. Yeah, okay,
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: obviously Scott argued these things better than I would, but
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: I genuinely understood what you were saying. He was he
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: was trying to approach things from a more holistic perspective
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: rather than Yeah. No, I think I do understand.
• 37:59
  Speaker 3: I mean, because you, as I think, are you sort
• 38:02
  Speaker 3: of saying that you know, whether it doesn't matter whether
• 38:04
  Speaker 3: it's powerlifting or whatever it is, you just if you
• 38:06
  Speaker 3: if you sort of go through life with almost just
• 38:08
  Speaker 3: with a checklist, and you just take it.
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well I've done that, and then now I'm go
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: and do and I've done that as a goal.
• 38:16
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and so you're not really you're not really actually
• 38:18
  Speaker 3: accumulating any great life benefit from that. You're just going yes, okay,
• 38:23
  Speaker 3: I think, yes, all right, all right, yeah, yeah with you. Yeah, no,
• 38:26
  Speaker 3: I do, I do see that. But but then, but then,
• 38:29
  Speaker 3: actually I do quite agree with Mike, because I the
• 38:33
  Speaker 3: way I see it, certainly in the United Kingdom, I
• 38:37
  Speaker 3: have absolutely come across a lot of people for whom
• 38:41
  Speaker 3: whatever supposedly sort of extreme sport or passion or ultra
• 38:47
  Speaker 3: discipline has is totally symbiotic with the lifestyle that everything
• 38:54
  Speaker 3: is is geared around it, and therefore it doesn't it
• 38:58
  Speaker 3: doesn't conform to the goal model it is. It is
• 39:02
  Speaker 3: more of a system. So I suppose it's I suppose,
• 39:05
  Speaker 3: I don't know. Are we saying that we can look
• 39:07
  Speaker 3: at the same sorts of things, whether it be powerlifting
• 39:10
  Speaker 3: or whatever, and it could it could be a goal
• 39:14
  Speaker 3: and therefore you're rather cheating yourself because you're not getting
• 39:17
  Speaker 3: the most out of it that you could. Or it
• 39:19
  Speaker 3: could be part of a system. I don't know, No,
• 39:24
  Speaker 3: I don't know.
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: Okay, well, but I do I do another way of
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: looking at it, And Scott did say this, but I
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: think it's probably too simplistic, budd He argued, jack of
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: all trades rather than a master of none, a bigger part,
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: not master of none, master of one versus the jack
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: of all trades. But that's very simplistic. But it's something
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: that everybody understands.
• 39:47
  Speaker 4: I think. I think for most people that would be
• 39:50
  Speaker 4: the case, because there aren't very many of us that
• 39:53
  Speaker 4: can absolutely excel at any particular thing that is that
• 40:00
  Speaker 4: puts you know, at the top of the pyramid in
• 40:03
  Speaker 4: that in that particular area. That's that's something that is
• 40:08
  Speaker 4: a challenge for most whereas all of us to some
• 40:11
  Speaker 4: degree can do most things. So so you know, so
• 40:15
  Speaker 4: long as you're your motivation for doing it in the
• 40:18
  Speaker 4: first place is the right one, whether that's just to
• 40:20
  Speaker 4: be a little bit fitter or whatever it happens to be.
• 40:24
  Speaker 4: You know, not all, not everybody can can actually put
• 40:29
  Speaker 4: the the dedication into to do some of these more
• 40:35
  Speaker 4: extreme things on a regular basis. So you know, it's
• 40:38
  Speaker 4: it's better to say, well, I mean it's if your
• 40:41
  Speaker 4: if your system is I mean, you're suggesting that the
• 40:45
  Speaker 4: system would be to maintain a level of fitness for
• 40:51
  Speaker 4: across your entire life. For example, is that there's nothing
• 40:54
  Speaker 4: you're talking about, well, then then in that case, you
• 40:58
  Speaker 4: can do a number of things to a certain degree,
• 41:02
  Speaker 4: but you're never going to be top of the top
• 41:05
  Speaker 4: of the game at any particular one. I think that's great,
• 41:08
  Speaker 4: and of course that that potentially allows you to work
• 41:15
  Speaker 4: all the muscle groups in your in your body, as
• 41:17
  Speaker 4: opposed to specialisms tend to tend to focus on specific areas.
• 41:23
  Speaker 1: Yes, that's that's that's more correct.
• 41:25
  Speaker 3: Yeah, you see, you're just going back to your lion
• 41:30
  Speaker 3: for a second and running. And this is why I
• 41:33
  Speaker 3: think we are you know, we are absolutely our own
• 41:37
  Speaker 3: worst enemies. I mean, in so many respects, don't I
• 41:40
  Speaker 3: don't want to bring the conversation down. But but and
• 41:44
  Speaker 3: I said, I've said this before, why do we stop
• 41:47
  Speaker 3: doing the stuff that we did when we were children?
• 41:50
  Speaker 3: And yeah, and I'm not talking about the fifteen minute
• 41:53
  Speaker 3: city thing. But the reason that a lion looks like
• 41:56
  Speaker 3: it does is because, to a great extent, a lion
• 41:59
  Speaker 3: does not get to the age of you know, fifteen
• 42:02
  Speaker 3: months and think, right, Okay, enough of that, and I'm
• 42:04
  Speaker 3: going to go sit behind my desk and you know,
• 42:07
  Speaker 3: put work out a spreadsheet for how many gazelle there
• 42:10
  Speaker 3: are on the around the corner. I mean, just it
• 42:13
  Speaker 3: doesn't do that, and therefore it retains absolutely the condition
• 42:18
  Speaker 3: whilst developing its mental.
• 42:22
  Speaker 1: Capability.
• 42:23
  Speaker 3: So if a lion's the interesting example, because I think
• 42:26
  Speaker 3: it would be fair to say that of the great hunters,
• 42:30
  Speaker 3: the great predators out thereon I mean, they are bungling,
• 42:33
  Speaker 3: they are, they're successful, but seriously, if they weren't that strong,
• 42:37
  Speaker 3: they would have a really hard time feeding themselves. Because
• 42:40
  Speaker 3: they are, they are not as good as they could be,
• 42:44
  Speaker 3: let's say. But still, the point is once a week,
• 42:48
  Speaker 3: yeah well yeah, But the point is that young lions
• 42:54
  Speaker 3: are constantly playing, and that's how they learn, you know,
• 42:56
  Speaker 3: that's how they develop strength and all the rest of
• 42:58
  Speaker 3: it in exactly the same way that human still can do.
• 43:00
  Speaker 3: And then and then you see lines when they are adult,
• 43:06
  Speaker 3: they will still fight with each other, they will play
• 43:09
  Speaker 3: with each other, and sometimes it looks very similar. But
• 43:12
  Speaker 3: all of those things are absolutely to their advantage in
• 43:15
  Speaker 3: a system's sense, because they do they do help them
• 43:22
  Speaker 3: with the lifestyles they lead which that's for Scott's argument.
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, in most situations. Sorry, but in most situations, a
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: system's mindset will get you out of most tricky situations.
• 43:33
  Speaker 3: Yes, and this, and you know whereas humans unfortunately, and again,
• 43:40
  Speaker 3: how do we know exactly why? We go back to
• 43:42
  Speaker 3: your point about brain The power of the human mind
• 43:47
  Speaker 3: is supposed to have, and we explain are the way
• 43:51
  Speaker 3: we decided to live on that as though somehow it's
• 43:54
  Speaker 3: an advantage, you know, Oh yeah, we were so clever
• 43:57
  Speaker 3: that we decided that rather than continue to use the
• 44:00
  Speaker 3: god given gifts we had of being able to run, swim, climb,
• 44:04
  Speaker 3: you know, all the rest of it, we thought we'd
• 44:06
  Speaker 3: go and sit behind a desk instead, because you know,
• 44:12
  Speaker 3: it's I know, I know that's a facile way to
• 44:15
  Speaker 3: put it, but it is. It is sort of extraordinary
• 44:19
  Speaker 3: in some senses that we do still cling to this
• 44:21
  Speaker 3: idea that we are, that we are so superior, that
• 44:23
  Speaker 3: we are so clever, We're so clever that we've managed
• 44:25
  Speaker 3: to destroy enormous swedes of the environment and really brutalize
• 44:32
  Speaker 3: ourselves as a species by ingesting the most horrific substances
• 44:38
  Speaker 3: and changing our you know, distorting our human form to
• 44:42
  Speaker 3: incredible proportion, so so sort of bizarre. But as I say,
• 44:45
  Speaker 3: where if we had just carried on from the age
• 44:49
  Speaker 3: of sixteen seventeen eighteen, still doing the kind of rough
• 44:53
  Speaker 3: and tumble stuff that people did as children, you know,
• 44:56
  Speaker 3: we would be completely and utterly different. And that's why,
• 45:00
  Speaker 3: you know, using the time prime going back, Okay, fifty
• 45:03
  Speaker 3: years is an obvious one. Let's say more like one
• 45:05
  Speaker 3: hundred years, where the vast majority of tasks that we
• 45:08
  Speaker 3: now have electrical devices to do were done by humans.
• 45:12
  Speaker 3: So people were just in much much better condition. And
• 45:15
  Speaker 3: I know there will be people listening to ourn Ana,
• 45:17
  Speaker 3: but then you know, look at mortality and people die
• 45:19
  Speaker 3: too much younger. There was diseases that Okay, so I'm
• 45:22
  Speaker 3: not justtying we're ever going to win necessarily by picking
• 45:27
  Speaker 3: a sort of one moment and to go, yeah, well
• 45:29
  Speaker 3: that that was absolutely it is. But I do think
• 45:32
  Speaker 3: we've lost with this idea of progress, development, change, all
• 45:36
  Speaker 3: that stuff. We've gosh, we've lost sight of something.
• 45:40
  Speaker 4: Yeah, But my question, my response to that, my question
• 45:43
  Speaker 4: would be why do we want to live one hundred years?
• 45:47
  Speaker 4: Forty years of that are in the nursing home dribbling.
• 45:50
  Speaker 4: Absolutely this is This is the other part of it.
• 45:53
  Speaker 4: And of course the reason that most that a lot
• 45:56
  Speaker 4: of people end up at the age of from sixty
• 45:59
  Speaker 4: upwards in our home struggling is because of the hyperprocessed
• 46:03
  Speaker 4: crap that they're putting in their bodies or their lives.
• 46:05
  Speaker 4: So and the fact that they're not outside taking this
• 46:09
  Speaker 4: taking exercise in the first place. And so you know,
• 46:14
  Speaker 4: this choice that we've made absolutely insane to me, but
• 46:19
  Speaker 4: anyway it is.
• 46:20
  Speaker 3: But it's completely fascinating because I think I look at
• 46:22
  Speaker 3: it as being similar to the microcosmic example of if
• 46:27
  Speaker 3: you want, if you want somebody to achieve a particular task,
• 46:33
  Speaker 3: give them a fixed period of time within which to
• 46:36
  Speaker 3: a short fixed time and it will be done. Okay,
• 46:40
  Speaker 3: that's not an absolute rule. There are definitely people who
• 46:43
  Speaker 3: don't conform to that. But the point is that if
• 46:46
  Speaker 3: you say, oh, you know, they go go and build
• 46:49
  Speaker 3: a bridge over there, there's no time limit. The majority
• 46:53
  Speaker 3: of people will therefore procrastinate. And what I would say
• 46:58
  Speaker 3: is that life is. It looks to me that life
• 47:03
  Speaker 3: is has become similar in that whilst people in this
• 47:09
  Speaker 3: day and age live longer, the total amount of stuff
• 47:13
  Speaker 3: done during that life, but I don't think is any
• 47:16
  Speaker 3: more than than it was. I mean, I was looking
• 47:19
  Speaker 3: at uh, I think where Charles.
• 47:24
  Speaker 1: I think.
• 47:25
  Speaker 3: I think Jane Austin I think died in her forties.
• 47:30
  Speaker 3: Bernini was sculpting, to my mind, beyond the capability of
• 47:36
  Speaker 3: pretty much any modern day sculptor. At the age of eight,
• 47:41
  Speaker 3: Mozart was composing I think even as young as five.
• 47:44
  Speaker 3: You know that stuff was just done differently, so a
• 47:47
  Speaker 3: huge amount of stuff was was squeezed into a much
• 47:51
  Speaker 3: shorter frame of time. So yes, I'm sorry, go on, no, no.
• 47:55
  Speaker 1: No, sorry, I was no because this is the thing
• 47:57
  Speaker 1: I've heard often, and I want to back on that,
• 48:01
  Speaker 1: this thing about people living older now because of pharmaceutical inventions,
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: and that's not necessarily true. People did live yeah, yeah, yes, okay, No,
• 48:14
  Speaker 1: you're absolutely right. I wasn't. I wasn't actually going to
• 48:16
  Speaker 1: say pharmaceutical stuff. But yes, yeah, there were there were
• 48:20
  Speaker 1: obviously is involved in people dying youngerluck, there were more
• 48:24
  Speaker 1: wars in some places of the world, but they were
• 48:28
  Speaker 1: arguably healthier in many ways. And what we are today
• 48:32
  Speaker 1: and we've been kept alive for the most part because
• 48:35
  Speaker 1: of drugs and as Mike said, you know you're dribbling
• 48:38
  Speaker 1: at age sixty. But people like I don't know. Marcus Aurelius,
• 48:42
  Speaker 1: as far as I remember, lived till the seventies. You know,
• 48:45
  Speaker 1: he was a Roman Roman emperor and he was in
• 48:49
  Speaker 1: a war, and he still lived to old age. But
• 48:53
  Speaker 1: my point is the argument around mortality changing because of
• 49:00
  Speaker 1: I don't know, pharmaceuticals in the last two hundred years,
• 49:02
  Speaker 1: it's not entirely true. It's a complete fabrication of, you know,
• 49:08
  Speaker 1: of the data. There's also something like Industrial Revolution, which
• 49:12
  Speaker 1: which changed the way in which people live. It particularly
• 49:15
  Speaker 1: the UK became very very filthy, very very quickly. And
• 49:20
  Speaker 1: Roman Bastianic has spoken about this and how dirty the
• 49:23
  Speaker 1: streets became and how polluted water pipes became and all
• 49:26
  Speaker 1: that kind of stuff until they turned it around again.
• 49:28
  Speaker 1: But there was that era. And you don't have to
• 49:33
  Speaker 1: rely you don't have to rely on drugs to live longer,
• 49:36
  Speaker 1: you don't have to droel when you turn sixty.
• 49:41
  Speaker 4: There's a certain amount of truth in that, but I
• 49:42
  Speaker 4: don't think. I think British times and cities were pretty
• 49:47
  Speaker 4: filthy for pretty much as long as there have been
• 49:50
  Speaker 4: times in cities because you know they didn't have No.
• 49:53
  Speaker 1: That's not what he said. He only said after the
• 49:55
  Speaker 1: Industrial Revolution, for a very short space and time they
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: became pretty dirty. But that's also in the UN is
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: no No.
• 50:01
  Speaker 4: But what I'm saying German is that that you know,
• 50:04
  Speaker 4: the English let's say English or British times and cities
• 50:09
  Speaker 4: were we're pretty filthy for hundreds of you since the
• 50:13
  Speaker 4: war times cities really because because because the one the
• 50:17
  Speaker 4: one modern invention of course that that helped clean things
• 50:20
  Speaker 4: up was you know, surge, the ability to remove seurge
• 50:26
  Speaker 4: from because otherwise stuff just get chucked out on the
• 50:28
  Speaker 4: street and so inevitably. You know, that was not necessarily
• 50:34
  Speaker 4: a terribly healthy environment for people to be living in.
• 50:39
  Speaker 1: But you know that the they This.
• 50:43
  Speaker 4: Sort of reminds me of this argument about bringing pharmaceuticals
• 50:47
  Speaker 4: Africa and so on. The the issue you could you know,
• 50:51
  Speaker 4: you can basically say that that antibiotics was was the
• 50:57
  Speaker 4: one invention that that improved people's lives in terms of longevity.
• 51:02
  Speaker 4: Well you could argue that, or you could have just
• 51:06
  Speaker 4: cleaned the place up somewhat and maybe you would have
• 51:09
  Speaker 4: had the same effect. Because of course, what the pharmaceuticals
• 51:13
  Speaker 4: might do is that they might under certain circumstances, mask
• 51:19
  Speaker 4: or uh cover over the the basic unhealthiness of the
• 51:27
  Speaker 4: environment that the person's in, or they might contribute to
• 51:30
  Speaker 4: to launchevity in that sense. So deal with your deal
• 51:36
  Speaker 4: with your environment first and and raise the standard of living,
• 51:40
  Speaker 4: and then discuss what you might do from medical point
• 51:45
  Speaker 4: of view. But pharmaceuticals as they as they stand are,
• 51:48
  Speaker 4: are not the answer to that. Just allow you to say, well,
• 51:53
  Speaker 4: we don't need to do any of this other stuff.
• 51:55
  Speaker 1: Does it a great pass off? I said, Marcus urilists
• 51:58
  Speaker 1: lived till seventy five. It was Augustus liptoal seventy eight.
• 52:01
  Speaker 1: I think Marcus Earlis, I think lived till about fifty
• 52:04
  Speaker 1: nine or there abuts. But just going back to that,
• 52:09
  Speaker 1: I think a good example Charles of a system. I
• 52:14
  Speaker 1: chatted about this on my show recently, the what's the
• 52:20
  Speaker 1: word I'm looking for? I cannot think of the word. Okay,
• 52:25
  Speaker 1: so let me rephrase, let me rephrase my sentence. Hyper
• 52:29
  Speaker 1: Specialization has led to a decline in holistic thinking. So,
• 52:36
  Speaker 1: for example, during the COVID era, super smart, well respected
• 52:41
  Speaker 1: individuals who were amazing in their field ended up taking
• 52:46
  Speaker 1: the JAB because they were so hyper specialized that they
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: were not able to think systems wide. Somebody like perhaps
• 52:56
  Speaker 1: the three of us on more systems wide thinkers, so
• 53:00
  Speaker 1: we might not be quote unquote experts or hyper specialized
• 53:04
  Speaker 1: in something, so we're able to look at the field
• 53:08
  Speaker 1: as it were, whereas somebody like, let's say, I don't know,
• 53:11
  Speaker 1: a virologist is very very specialized in a very specific
• 53:14
  Speaker 1: lane on his highway that he's unable to for the
• 53:18
  Speaker 1: most part, think outside of that. This is a critique
• 53:21
  Speaker 1: that one of my guests was giving about the hyper specialization.
• 53:25
  Speaker 1: That's not really a goals thing, but I suppose it's
• 53:28
  Speaker 1: a parallel to the system's way of thinking.
• 53:34
  Speaker 3: Does make sense what I'm saying, Yeah, No, I mean
• 53:37
  Speaker 3: it absolutely does. And I think everybody will be able
• 53:40
  Speaker 3: to bring to mind somebody at least one person.
• 53:43
  Speaker 1: Okay, ye, I'll give you an example. I'll give an
• 53:45
  Speaker 1: example of Nasium Teleb So I had huge admiration for
• 53:48
  Speaker 1: Nasim Teleb. Right. Great author writes very very well on
• 53:52
  Speaker 1: risk management. He wrote I think he wrote The Black Swan,
• 53:58
  Speaker 1: and he also wrote Skin in the Game. Great. Skin
• 54:02
  Speaker 1: in the Game is a good book. But look what
• 54:04
  Speaker 1: happened Jen Covid. He completely and utterly failed at his
• 54:09
  Speaker 1: own thought processes.
• 54:14
  Speaker 3: Well, I mean, like so many people. So yeah, I
• 54:18
  Speaker 3: mean to your point specifically, whether it's you know, yes,
• 54:24
  Speaker 3: it depends on where you look at it. The I
• 54:27
  Speaker 3: would suggest to a certain extent that an actual fact
• 54:32
  Speaker 3: when you look at how such people are funded, I'm
• 54:36
  Speaker 3: talking about your specialists in actual facts, you look at
• 54:41
  Speaker 3: it the other way around. It's it's sort of a
• 54:42
  Speaker 3: form of compartmentalization. You know, you are running batches of people,
• 54:48
  Speaker 3: but you're only exposing them to a certain amount of
• 54:52
  Speaker 3: the information each because you're asking them to concentrate on
• 54:56
  Speaker 3: that very specific thing within the laboratory, and they will
• 55:01
  Speaker 3: not talk to the people next door or the people
• 55:03
  Speaker 3: next door to them. But all of those strands lead
• 55:07
  Speaker 3: into the core functions of the business, which is able
• 55:11
  Speaker 3: to make best use of the research. So I don't
• 55:18
  Speaker 3: see any empirical evidence from the people I've come across
• 55:23
  Speaker 3: in my.
• 55:23
  Speaker 1: Life to suggest that people who are regarded as being.
• 55:32
  Speaker 3: Expert or highly you know, sort of highly intelligent or
• 55:36
  Speaker 3: brain box or whatever, I don't really understand why they
• 55:42
  Speaker 3: are fated any more than somebody who's really good at
• 55:49
  Speaker 3: carving spoons, Because why does it follow that the person
• 55:55
  Speaker 3: who can bash out a sixteen hour day and sequence
• 56:01
  Speaker 3: a genome is any more worthy than somebody somebody else
• 56:08
  Speaker 3: who can do something that requires intense concentration and the
• 56:12
  Speaker 3: result of which is sort of impressive. The point is
• 56:16
  Speaker 3: that they are both incredibly narrowly focused on one thing,
• 56:21
  Speaker 3: So why do we imagine that they should be in
• 56:25
  Speaker 3: some way all seeing or that they would have powers
• 56:31
  Speaker 3: beyond that. And the last six years have been a
• 56:34
  Speaker 3: real education because actually the people who've who've by and
• 56:39
  Speaker 3: large stood up and got it right, I would say
• 56:42
  Speaker 3: in terms of they've they've just they've just seen that
• 56:45
  Speaker 3: there's a real crisis of humanity here. People are being
• 56:51
  Speaker 3: incredibly unpleasant to each other. And I'm crregy, I'm only
• 56:55
  Speaker 3: talking about what we've dealt with in the United Kingdom,
• 56:58
  Speaker 3: which is in effect being a sort of psychological warfare campaign.
• 57:04
  Speaker 3: And yet the people who've seen through that, who've just
• 57:07
  Speaker 3: seen that it's fundamentally wrong and been able to say, yeah,
• 57:10
  Speaker 3: you can keep your flipping science. That doesn't matter, because
• 57:13
  Speaker 3: what we're really talking about here is people, and the
• 57:16
  Speaker 3: people that have seen through that are are I would
• 57:18
  Speaker 3: say generalists. They're not people who've got any any necessary,
• 57:24
  Speaker 3: sort of absolute top flight credentials, and that seems to
• 57:29
  Speaker 3: have worked out in their favor. So I do find
• 57:36
  Speaker 3: this sort of obsession with the creation of you know,
• 57:43
  Speaker 3: almost sort of scientific heroes bizarre. Which is not I'm
• 57:46
  Speaker 3: not dismissing the brain power, Yes, okay, that is that
• 57:50
  Speaker 3: is impressive, but why that should be taken as meaning
• 57:56
  Speaker 3: more than just that one thing, I don't really get.
• 57:59
  Speaker 3: So I'm not sure if really articulated that particularly well,
• 58:01
  Speaker 3: but but it's but it is just odd. I find
• 58:04
  Speaker 3: it odd, given going back through the threads of the
• 58:07
  Speaker 3: conversation that we've had today, when we're talking about our
• 58:09
  Speaker 3: sort of our physical prowess and in a sense the
• 58:12
  Speaker 3: human versatility, Why it is that we are so obsessed
• 58:15
  Speaker 3: with concentrating on people who have a very narrow focus
• 58:18
  Speaker 3: in their life. Why do we think that they're the
• 58:20
  Speaker 3: best humans? This just seems to me sort of a
• 58:23
  Speaker 3: bit of a contradiction. I think that's a fair question
• 58:27
  Speaker 3: to make. I'm just looking at the time quickly. We
• 58:30
  Speaker 3: have discussed absolutely nothing that I have in front of me,
• 58:33
  Speaker 3: so I'll get holded back until next week.
• 58:36
  Speaker 4: Well done, fault.
• 58:38
  Speaker 1: You've DoD it. You warned into that one because it
• 58:40
  Speaker 1: looks like you had a going.
• 58:42
  Speaker 4: Yeah, there's no systems thicking there.
• 58:45
  Speaker 1: Now you ruined my goal. I ran from the coffee
• 58:49
  Speaker 1: shop where I created this.
• 58:50
  Speaker 3: Goal to talk about something coming out. Video footage I
• 58:54
  Speaker 3: want to see. I want to see exactly how steep
• 58:57
  Speaker 3: this slope is. Did you say your run wife? Yes,
• 59:00
  Speaker 3: my wife laughs at me when I run. So you're
• 59:02
  Speaker 3: not seeing any video of me running. Okay, all right, Well,
• 59:05
  Speaker 3: just you don't have.
• 59:06
  Speaker 4: To show You don't have to show this video of
• 59:07
  Speaker 4: you running. You could, you could put an action camera
• 59:10
  Speaker 4: on your chest or something.
• 59:11
  Speaker 3: We just wanted that, which is we just see the
• 59:13
  Speaker 3: faces of the people laughing that you're running past.
• 59:17
  Speaker 1: That will suffice. All right, gentlemen, I will catch up
• 59:22
  Speaker 1: with you next week.
• 59:26
  Speaker 4: M hm
• 59:33
  Speaker 3: Hm