Latest / Math Therapy / How to change someone's mind w/ Chris Luzniak

Transcript

How to change someone's mind w/ Chris Luzniak · Math Therapy

• 0:02
  Chris Luzniak: And at the end, when we debriefed the lesson, the teacher said, that girl who shared first has never spoken all year in my class.
• 0:08
  Chris Luzniak: But she several times raised her hand and wanted participate because she suddenly felt comfortable.
• 0:12
  Chris Luzniak: She suddenly has a voice.
• 0:14
  Chris Luzniak: Every side in a debate has some kernel of truth, and I want to hear more about it to understand what's in their head, not just if they're right or wrong.
• 0:22
  Vanessa Vakharia: Hi, I'm Vanessa Vakharia, aka The Math Guru, and you're listening to Math Therapy, a podcast that explores the root causes of math trauma, and the empowering ways we can heal from it.
• 0:33
  Vanessa Vakharia: Whether you think you're a math person or not, you're about to find out that math people don't actually exist.
• 0:38
  Vanessa Vakharia: But the scars that math class left on many of us definitely do.
• 0:42
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh, and don't worry, no calculators or actual math were involved in the making of this podcast.
• 0:49
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay, so I'm just gonna come in hot and say that I think my guest might be my math ed soulmate.
• 0:54
  Vanessa Vakharia: I say this for many reasons, the main one being that he went to school to be a Broadway star before becoming a math teacher.
• 1:01
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, how cool is that?
• 1:02
  Vanessa Vakharia: And actually, I've always thought that teaching is kind of like performing, so it makes sense that today's guest is an incredible math teacher.
• 1:10
  Vanessa Vakharia: Chris Luzniak, guys! That's who it is! The king of debate in math class and host of the Debate Math Podcast.
• 1:17
  Vanessa Vakharia: And what, you might ask, does debate have to do with math class?
• 1:20
  Vanessa Vakharia: How can getting kids more comfortable with public speaking in low pressure scenarios help prevent math anxiety?
• 1:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: And what is the secret to changing someone's mind?
• 1:28
  Vanessa Vakharia: Well, stay tuned because Chris is about to tell all and if you disagree with any of it, you'll just have to go on his podcast.
• 1:37
  Vanessa Vakharia: Chris.
• 1:37
  Vanessa Vakharia: Welcome to the podcast.
• 1:39
  Vanessa Vakharia: Um, I, our listeners should probably know that we've been now speaking for about half an hour already all our gold has already been unrecorded, so now we're going to have to repeat it all.
• 1:51
  Chris Luzniak: It's a pleasure to be here.
• 1:52
  Chris Luzniak: Glad to finally be recording with you.
• 1:55
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh my god, he's acting so professional.
• 1:56
  Vanessa Vakharia: He's like, and now I'm going to say something normal.
• 1:58
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 1:59
  Vanessa Vakharia: Thank you.
• 1:59
  Vanessa Vakharia: Um, okay.
• 2:00
  Vanessa Vakharia: Well, I'm just going to pick up where we left off of what we were talking about, because now I want to know about it and everyone should know.
• 2:06
  Vanessa Vakharia: So, the last thing you just said before we got rudely cut off by David telling me to stop yelling into the microphone was that you have a joint theatre and math degree.
• 2:15
  Vanessa Vakharia: Can I just hear about this and like, why?
• 2:17
  Chris Luzniak: Yeah, I didn't fully finish the theater, but I went to college for theater originally because I mean, I was good at math in high school, but what do you do with a math degree?
• 2:26
  Chris Luzniak: And, you know, I had teachers who lectured at me and I memorized things and I got the A and just moved on with my life, but like, I wasn't going to be a, what does a math major do?
• 2:34
  Chris Luzniak: Right?
• 2:34
  Chris Luzniak: Um, but theater is really fun and exciting and it was like a hobby of mine.
• 2:37
  Chris Luzniak: So, I went to college for that, and then I took a math class in college with a professor who kind of had like a flipped classroom where we did some teaching ourselves calculus at home and then doing problems at the board kind of like Building Thinking Classrooms, but like 20 some years ago, this was.
• 2:52
  Vanessa Vakharia: Wow, dropping Building Thinking Classrooms, it's been one minute of the interview.
• 2:56
  Chris Luzniak: But this is before all of that, right?
• 2:57
  Chris Luzniak: This is like
• 2:58
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 2:59
  Chris Luzniak: 2000.
• 3:00
  Chris Luzniak: Um, and it was so fun to learn math that way.
• 3:02
  Chris Luzniak: And like everything suddenly clicked and made sense.
• 3:04
  Chris Luzniak: And we were challenged.
• 3:05
  Chris Luzniak: And I was like, I want to take more classes with you, like this professor, and being a liberal arts college, there wasn't a lot of people in the math program, so it was very easy to have one on one time with our professors.
• 3:14
  Chris Luzniak: And I just kept taking more math classes and I switched to a math degree.
• 3:17
  Chris Luzniak: And I, and then I went to grad school for math after that.
• 3:19
  Chris Luzniak: Like, I just loved, I fell in love with math and I didn't fully finish the theater degree.
• 3:23
  Chris Luzniak: Like I have a minor or something in it.
• 3:24
  Chris Luzniak: I don't even remember.
• 3:25
  Chris Luzniak: Um, but I took most of the classes for it cause I still loved it.
• 3:27
  Chris Luzniak: But, uh, yeah, so I have a dual passion of theater and math.
• 3:31
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay, I have so many questions, none of which were on my list.
• 3:34
  Vanessa Vakharia: But the first is when you, I'm just curious, when you were going to take your theatre degree, were you like, I'm going to be on Broadway.
• 3:39
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, what did you want?
• 3:40
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like you said, there's nothing you can do with a math degree.
• 3:42
  Vanessa Vakharia: So, okay, that's what you were
• 3:43
  Chris Luzniak: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 3:44
  Chris Luzniak: I was like singer, dancer, actor, like auditioning at colleges when I was in a senior year of like, you know, doing, songs and dance audition things to get into the musical theater programs, things like that.
• 3:54
  Chris Luzniak: Yeah.
• 3:54
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh my God.
• 3:55
  Vanessa Vakharia: Well, we're right now watching Only Murders in the Building.
• 3:57
  Vanessa Vakharia: Have you seen it?
• 3:58
  Chris Luzniak: Of course.
• 3:58
  Chris Luzniak: Yeah.
• 3:58
  Chris Luzniak: Season three.
• 3:59
  Vanessa Vakharia: So yeah, so I'm just thinking of everything right now,"which of the pick wick triplets did it?" know, like that.
• 4:06
  Chris Luzniak: That is such great catchy song.
• 4:08
  Chris Luzniak: Yeah, I mean, that's also why I ended up in New York City.
• 4:10
  Chris Luzniak: Like I taught math for almost a decade in New York City, but I, friends of mine were moving there to do theater and I had developed a math and education kind of pathway on the side.
• 4:20
  Chris Luzniak: So I still wanted to go to New York with them.
• 4:21
  Chris Luzniak: So, uh, I taught in New York and then I went to Broadway shows in the evenings.
• 4:24
  Chris Luzniak: It was great.
• 4:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay, so your, your whole thing that like I really wanted to talk to you about was debate in math class.
• 4:31
  Vanessa Vakharia: So we're going to talk about what that actually means.
• 4:34
  Vanessa Vakharia: But I'm wondering like.
• 4:36
  Vanessa Vakharia: It must be, like, I always think about this.
• 4:39
  Vanessa Vakharia: You kind of said that the reason you fell back in love with math, or even fell in love with it to start with, was because of a teacher.
• 4:44
  Vanessa Vakharia: You loved, like, his style.
• 4:45
  Vanessa Vakharia: He was doing Peter Liljedahl, while Peter Liljedahl in the 2000s was probably, like, still in his canoe, like, not even knowing that he wanted to use a whiteboard.
• 4:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: Fine.
• 4:54
  Vanessa Vakharia: Um, and you loved that.
• 4:55
  Vanessa Vakharia: So, like, that teacher made such a difference.
• 4:58
  Vanessa Vakharia: But for you, like, that is such a unique skill set to bring into a classroom because it must be so incredible to have that, like, ability to perform while teaching.
• 5:07
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, how do you think that kind of helps you be such an engaging teacher?
• 5:11
  Chris Luzniak: Ooh, that's complicated.
• 5:12
  Chris Luzniak: Cause when I teach, I mean, I'm not teaching this year, but I want it to be about the students, not about me.
• 5:19
  Chris Luzniak: Versus like, if I'm on stage, I want it to be about me, right?
• 5:22
  Chris Luzniak: Me and look at my skills.
• 5:23
  Chris Luzniak: So, um, but it helps like those background skills help in like the improv way and the like, how to like um, read the audience way that like, I can see what's happening and I kind of keep things moving.
• 5:34
  Chris Luzniak: Like people notice when they come to observe my classroom, like things keep moving, kids are always busy doing different things.
• 5:39
  Chris Luzniak: And I, I can sense when it's like, we spent enough time on this problem.
• 5:42
  Chris Luzniak: Let's like, either talk about the answer or move on to something else.
• 5:45
  Chris Luzniak: Like it just like, it keeps flowing.
• 5:46
  Chris Luzniak: And so like that, those kinds of like softer skills or background skills, I think, really kick in when I, when I'm in front of a group or working with a group.
• 5:54
  Vanessa Vakharia: That's such a cool way to think about it, because I was totally just thinking about you in the spotlight, but what a cool way to flip it around to be like, no, like one of my greatest skills is being able to like, read the room and react to the audience.
• 6:06
  Vanessa Vakharia: And like, what could possibly be more student centered than that?
• 6:09
  Vanessa Vakharia: Right?
• 6:09
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, I feel like, you know, this is a podcast about math trauma, and one of the things I often talk about is that, like, you're not going to go up to every student and be like, hey, do you have trauma?
• 6:18
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, what someone do to hurt you?
• 6:20
  Vanessa Vakharia: But, like, to build those active listening or observational skills so that you can spot signs.
• 6:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: So, like, I feel like that's actually so cool that you're using that skill in a way of being like, how is my audience reacting?
• 6:32
  Vanessa Vakharia: How do I have to change my approach as a teacher?
• 6:34
  Vanessa Vakharia: And that kind of stuff.
• 6:35
  Vanessa Vakharia: And now I'm thinking about, I want to hear about this debate in math class thing.
• 6:39
  Vanessa Vakharia: How did it start?
• 6:40
  Vanessa Vakharia: Because this really plays in for me.
• 6:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm just thinking about you as a performer, watching the audience and like encouraging debate.
• 6:45
  Vanessa Vakharia: So tell me about it.
• 6:47
  Chris Luzniak: Yes, so before I was in the theater, um, I had a teacher in high school, English teacher who convinced me to join speech and debate team at school.
• 6:57
  Chris Luzniak: And I was a somewhat introverted, pretty shy, nerdy freshman.
• 7:04
  Chris Luzniak: Um,
• 7:06
  Vanessa Vakharia: I can't see it.
• 7:07
  Chris Luzniak: And well, when I did speeches and competition, like I suddenly came out of my shell, like it was like my, like 10 minutes to like perform my thing.
• 7:14
  Chris Luzniak: And then I sat back down.
• 7:15
  Chris Luzniak: Right.
• 7:15
  Chris Luzniak: But like, when I'm on, I was on and I suddenly, it just like kicked in in me like this, like passion for like, I want to be up there and performing and doing things and talking to people.
• 7:24
  Chris Luzniak: And it like brought me out of my shell.
• 7:26
  Chris Luzniak: A million times over.
• 7:27
  Chris Luzniak: Like I, I can remember in like elementary school, I never wanted to talk in class at all.
• 7:30
  Chris Luzniak: Like I just never felt comfortable no matter how much I knew the answer or whatever.
• 7:34
  Chris Luzniak: Like I wouldn't, I was someone who wouldn't raise my hand when I was younger.
• 7:36
  Vanessa Vakharia: Why?
• 7:37
  Chris Luzniak: I, just too shy.
• 7:38
  Chris Luzniak: I don't know.
• 7:38
  Chris Luzniak: I just didn't feel like I had enough to contribute or I just wasn't comfortable for some reason.
• 7:43
  Chris Luzniak: And, speech and debate, like, changed my whole perspective of like what I can do or how, my confidence level and all these things.
• 7:50
  Chris Luzniak: And so, yeah, so that, that led me to theater and all that stuff down the road.
• 7:53
  Chris Luzniak: And so when I was teaching, in New York City, my first couple of years, I was also coaching speech and debate.
• 7:59
  Chris Luzniak: I started a team at the school that I was at.
• 8:01
  Chris Luzniak: And I noticed that after school kids never wanted to leave my room.
• 8:05
  Chris Luzniak: They wanted to read really like dull articles about like healthcare policy or, you know, like foreign affairs, whatever, um, cause they wanted to win the debate that coming weekend when we went to the competition, right.
• 8:18
  Chris Luzniak: Or they wanted to practice the speech they wrote with me over and over again.
• 8:21
  Chris Luzniak: And I was like, why is like this so compelling for kids?
• 8:24
  Chris Luzniak: And why is math class a place where they just kind of, you slouch down, you know, hide in the back and just kind of only spoke if, if they're forced to.
• 8:32
  Chris Luzniak: And so I tried to merge those two worlds and just playing with a lot of ideas around student discourse.
• 8:38
  Chris Luzniak: And then also just asking questions that are more debatable than just what's the answer, but like, what's, what's the best method for going this, or what might be your first step, or looking at two incorrect answers and being like, who has the coolest mistake here?
• 8:50
  Chris Luzniak: And just getting things where like, there's an opinion behind it and math wasn't just cold and about getting the answers anymore.
• 8:56
  Chris Luzniak: And suddenly I saw kids start to lean in and say, I want to share my thought on this, because I'm asking for their opinions, we know teenagers are full of opinions, they share their ideas.
• 9:06
  Chris Luzniak: And so when I flipped that and made math more about sharing your ideas about things, kids really wanted to talk.
• 9:11
  Chris Luzniak: And so this is what I do now with teachers.
• 9:14
  Chris Luzniak: When I work with teachers, like.
• 9:15
  Chris Luzniak: I work with them to build classroom routines and questions and activities where students are sharing their opinion, maybe not all the time, but at least parts of classes here and there to get the culture to shift from answer getting to like really leaning in and talking about your ideas.
• 9:30
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm obsessed with this.
• 9:32
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay, so I'm obsessed with this.
• 9:33
  Vanessa Vakharia: So, to, uh, my first question is, what did you learn in, in your speech and debate experience that, like, all of a sudden shifted your perspective to being like, I'm really comfortable talking and sharing my opinion.
• 9:43
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, what were some of the core skills?
• 9:45
  Vanessa Vakharia: Because like, we're always like, I do this, I'm like, just don't be afraid to take a risk.
• 9:48
  Vanessa Vakharia: That's not like a skill though.
• 9:50
  Chris Luzniak: Yeah, I just learned by doing it a bunch of times, my comfort and confidence really grew and I just have to do it.
• 9:59
  Chris Luzniak: Like, I can't do it once and be like, I'm, I got over my public speaking fear.
• 10:02
  Chris Luzniak: Right.
• 10:02
  Chris Luzniak: But if I it every weekend or every other weekend or whatever, uh, it becomes more comfortable and the more I do it.
• 10:08
  Chris Luzniak: And so I want in my classroom, my students to do the same thing.
• 10:10
  Chris Luzniak: I want them to talk, once, twice a week, at least, right?
• 10:15
  Chris Luzniak: Like maybe every class, if I, if I could, depends how big my classes are and where I'm teaching, but like, can it become a routine that like once or twice every week they have to like share with each other, share with the whole class, share with a small group, whatever size of audience we're working with.
• 10:28
  Chris Luzniak: But I want it to be comfortable and it only becomes comfortable if you repeat, repeat, repeat.
• 10:33
  Vanessa Vakharia: Hmm.
• 10:33
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like consistency.
• 10:34
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, even when you're working out, it's more important to just be consistent than to like lift heavy weights once a week, right?
• 10:40
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like consistency, consistency.
• 10:42
  Vanessa Vakharia: So what you're saying about repetition, I love that.
• 10:45
  Vanessa Vakharia: But I'm also wondering, like, is there, I, I've actually never like done any sort of structured debate, waiting for someone to have me on their podcast so I can do it.
• 10:53
  Chris Luzniak: Okay.
• 10:54
  Chris Luzniak: I got the hint.
• 10:54
  Chris Luzniak: I got the hint.
• 10:55
  Vanessa Vakharia: We'll talk about that shortly.
• 10:57
  Vanessa Vakharia: What I'm wondering is, can you tell me like how debate works?
• 11:00
  Vanessa Vakharia: Cause you have a podcast where you have adults debating mathematical ideas and concepts, but you also do it in class.
• 11:06
  Vanessa Vakharia: Are there like rules?
• 11:08
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, how does it work?
• 11:10
  Chris Luzniak: Well, I'd say it depends how formal you're being.
• 11:12
  Chris Luzniak: If I have like a five minute warm up question with students at the beginning of class, and I'm just like, what's the best pizza topping or, you know, what's the best method for solving this problem, whatever it is, it's quick.
• 11:24
  Chris Luzniak: And it's just like you get your 30 seconds to kind of share your idea.
• 11:27
  Chris Luzniak: And I have a little structure around it.
• 11:28
  Chris Luzniak: I use some sentence stems, like"my claim is, my warrant is", um, but on that like low key level, it's just about like a quick, you know, 20 seconds in the spotlight, share your ideas and someone else goes.
• 11:38
  Chris Luzniak: But it's about one person talking, that's like, that's the only rule and everyone else just listening and practicing our listening skills.
• 11:43
  Chris Luzniak: But as I get bigger, like if I do a project with a class where we're going to have like a full debate for like a whole day, or on my podcast, when I get adults together and they have different viewpoints and we're all going to debate, there is a structure to it, which if you're, when you're on in the future,
• 11:58
  Vanessa Vakharia: But like, tell briefly what it is.
• 12:00
  Chris Luzniak: Yeah, I mean, I just do a simple, like everyone gets an opening statement and then we have a questioning round.
• 12:05
  Chris Luzniak: And then there's a closing round where you kind of summarize your main points one last time.
• 12:09
  Chris Luzniak: But for me, the opening statements is the most important because everyone gets their 2 minutes to say whatever they want and to like, kind of start their case.
• 12:17
  Chris Luzniak: It's kind of like, you know, in, uh, in a courtroom, kind of like the opening statements there.
• 12:21
  Chris Luzniak: And then the questioning round is where my host and I just ask questions, and we just have a conversation, because I want to hear more about some of the things you said, or I want to talk about some things that didn't come up in your opening statement, because you can't fit everything you want to say in 2 minutes, but you like, your 2 minutes is like you set the tone and say what you really want to get across.
• 12:37
  Chris Luzniak: We'll casually talk through things in the questioning round.
• 12:39
  Chris Luzniak: And we say to all our guests, like, I really believe both sides have something to share.
• 12:44
  Chris Luzniak: And so the questions, there's no gotchas in the questions.
• 12:47
  Chris Luzniak: We just want to know, like, can you say more about that?
• 12:49
  Chris Luzniak: We don't come out with like, but what about this?
• 12:50
  Chris Luzniak: Right.
• 12:51
  Chris Luzniak: We're not, we're not cross-examining someone.
• 12:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: You're not being a reply guy.
• 12:55
  Vanessa Vakharia: Did I use that right?
• 12:57
  Chris Luzniak: I don't know what that means.
• 12:59
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay, David is shaking his head.
• 13:00
  Vanessa Vakharia: Never mind, go on.
• 13:02
  Chris Luzniak: I want people to be comfortable and I want to hear them out.
• 13:03
  Chris Luzniak: I, I really believe at least in almost every debate we have and most debates I have in life that both sides are seeing things, uh, with truth, like we have some misunderstandings or some different goals in mind.
• 13:16
  Chris Luzniak: That's why we really debate.
• 13:17
  Chris Luzniak: Like, you know, the, um, like on social media you see all the time, like the cylinder, like if I look from one end, it's a circle, but if you look from the side, it's a, it's a rectangle.
• 13:24
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, I've seen that.
• 13:25
  Chris Luzniak: We both see like different shapes, right?
• 13:27
  Chris Luzniak: But we're both right.
• 13:28
  Chris Luzniak: Like, we're just like, I'm viewing things with this lens or with this goal in mind.
• 13:33
  Chris Luzniak: Like I want to get my kids to pass the state exams.
• 13:35
  Chris Luzniak: Like that's different than what you want to do, if you want them to feel comfortable with learning math is, you know, we have different goals at different moments.
• 13:42
  Chris Luzniak: And so I want to hear them all out.
• 13:44
  Chris Luzniak: Cause there's points to be made on all sides.
• 13:46
  Chris Luzniak: And so I don't want, I want everyone to feel comfortable.
• 13:48
  Chris Luzniak: I just want to dwell in that gray area in the middle we talk about a lot, where there is no right or wrong, it's just shades of gray.
• 13:55
  Vanessa Vakharia: Do you think there's something to the structure of it?
• 13:58
  Vanessa Vakharia: Because it's like I'm imagining you starting your class, a lot of teachers try to do this, right, of just being like so, like, what's the best way to solve this problem?
• 14:05
  Vanessa Vakharia: Versus We have five minutes.
• 14:07
  Vanessa Vakharia: Everyone has 20 seconds, what's the best way to solve this problem?
• 14:11
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, is there something about the structure of it that lends itself to kids being more like willing to share?
• 14:18
  Vanessa Vakharia: Cause they know that it's going to follow a format.
• 14:20
  Vanessa Vakharia: They know that like, is there something there?
• 14:22
  Chris Luzniak: Yeah.
• 14:23
  Chris Luzniak: I would say it's two things.
• 14:24
  Chris Luzniak: It's the fact that you're asking for an opinion, not the answer.
• 14:26
  Chris Luzniak: So even if I don't know how to do that, I can give an opinion of like, I might do this first, like, and just throw something out there.
• 14:32
  Chris Luzniak: So it's easier to join the conversation.
• 14:34
  Chris Luzniak: And then I have, like I said, I have the sentence frame,"my claim is my warrant is".
• 14:38
  Vanessa Vakharia: What does that mean?
• 14:38
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like explain that my claim is?
• 14:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: My warrant, like use it.
• 14:42
  Chris Luzniak: My claim is dogs are the best pets, and my warrant is because they're so cuddly.
• 14:48
  Chris Luzniak: And,
• 14:49
  Vanessa Vakharia: Ohhhh.
• 14:50
  Chris Luzniak: So warrant means reason, it's just a fancy, I took it from the debate world.
• 14:53
  Chris Luzniak: Like warrant means reason.
• 14:55
  Chris Luzniak: Um, it's just a, an old fashioned word for reason.
• 14:58
  Chris Luzniak: But I, I also tell teachers all the time when I work with them, I lucked onto this.
• 15:03
  Chris Luzniak: I was just playing with different sentence frame ideas.
• 15:06
  Chris Luzniak: The word warrant is something special, and claim even too, because it's not part of the students' everyday vocabulary.
• 15:11
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's like, fancy.
• 15:13
  Chris Luzniak: Yeah, so if you ask them to say like,"I think because", it becomes a lot more like informal and it becomes like almost personal when people reply like in the opposite side of things.
• 15:23
  Chris Luzniak: But when you say"my claim, my warrant", it sounds like this fancy thing, that's like really just you're throwing an idea out there and people are attacking the idea and not the person.
• 15:30
  Vanessa Vakharia: I love this! I'm always going on about how language is so important, but it's like every day I realize I didn't even realize how important language was or like in what context, like even this tiny little thing can like shift.
• 15:42
  Vanessa Vakharia: So, okay.
• 15:42
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh my God.
• 15:43
  Vanessa Vakharia: I have like three questions, which one am I going to ask first?
• 15:46
  Vanessa Vakharia: My first one actually is this.
• 15:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: With what you're saying, but also with a lot of like ideas educators have of like new frameworks and things to do, I find that one thing we, we almost like take for granted is the relationship building that needs to happen before you can do something like this.
• 16:00
  Vanessa Vakharia: Right?
• 16:00
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, so I was, I was wondering about that.
• 16:03
  Vanessa Vakharia: You know, if you were giving advice to educators and you were like, go do this claim warrant stuff, yay.
• 16:07
  Vanessa Vakharia: Would you be like, but first there's some stuff you have to do.
• 16:09
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, are there, is there relationship building?
• 16:11
  Vanessa Vakharia: Do you have to teach conflict resolution?
• 16:12
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, do you need to make sure it's a safe space?
• 16:14
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, how do you do those things?
• 16:17
  Chris Luzniak: Uh, that's complicated because any, ways to build relationships are different from teacher to teacher and even from year to year and different students.
• 16:24
  Chris Luzniak: Yes, all of that's true.
• 16:25
  Chris Luzniak: Like, I need to create a comfortable environment where they feel safe to share their ideas.
• 16:30
  Chris Luzniak: But I say, I like, start the year with debate, and relationship building at the same time.
• 16:34
  Chris Luzniak: And they're kind of working hand in hand.
• 16:35
  Chris Luzniak: Like I think making them a little uncomfortable about having them share out the first or second day of class, um, opens them up to a little bit of vulnerability, but like I do it in a loving, careful way.
• 16:46
  Chris Luzniak: And so the, I want them to know that they, their voice is valued, and, um, it's okay to be uncomfortable in this class.
• 16:52
  Chris Luzniak: But I, I'm here to support you and only say positive things about this, uh, when you share out.
• 16:56
  Chris Luzniak: And like, I start debate with like best pizza topping, best ice cream,
• 17:00
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like chill stuff.
• 17:01
  Chris Luzniak: Like, we're not even talking about math because math anxiety could, could heighten the level of someone's stress.
• 17:05
  Chris Luzniak: But if I ask you to talk about, you know, the best video game or the best musician.
• 17:10
  Chris Luzniak: You have an opinion and it's okay to share.
• 17:12
  Chris Luzniak: And even just share in like a, in a partner format, like a pair share or in a small group, like just each, each person in your group share with each other, like, what's your, what's the best ice cream flavor?
• 17:21
  Chris Luzniak: And my claim is, my warrant is, just get that practice down and then we'll build up to like, talking in front of the class, maybe.
• 17:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: Mh hmm.
• 17:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: So it's funny, you brought up math anxiety and this podcast is called Math Therapy.
• 17:31
  Vanessa Vakharia: So it's very much about that, like how do we spot anxiety?
• 17:34
  Vanessa Vakharia: How do we deal with it?
• 17:34
  Vanessa Vakharia: How do we manage it?
• 17:35
  Vanessa Vakharia: How do we help kids overcome it?
• 17:37
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I want to go back to what you just said about being like, well, first I ask, you know, about chill things that have nothing to do with math.
• 17:42
  Vanessa Vakharia: Otherwise, math anxiety might, and then we didn't finish the sentence because I started laughing.
• 17:46
  Vanessa Vakharia: So can we, can we go back to that?
• 17:48
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like.
• 17:49
  Vanessa Vakharia: Tell me what you mean and what power you think debate might have, because I think it could be such a powerful tool in helping kids overcome previous math trauma.
• 17:59
  Chris Luzniak: Yeah.
• 18:00
  Chris Luzniak: so like I said, first, I don't start with math.
• 18:03
  Chris Luzniak: Because if you just say, I want you to speak, and that student has a fear of public speaking, and talk about math, that is, could be like be beyond their threshold, like tenfold, right?
• 18:11
  Chris Luzniak: It is so stressful to do that, but if I'm just like, I want you to speak about ice cream, that's a great way to get into it.
• 18:16
  Chris Luzniak: But then when we start talking about math, it's very gently and just like, Hey, what do you think is the best method for this?
• 18:21
  Chris Luzniak: Or, here's like two mistakes I made on this problem.
• 18:24
  Chris Luzniak: Which one is the better mistake, whatever the coolest mistake, whatever that means.
• 18:27
  Chris Luzniak: Right.
• 18:28
  Chris Luzniak: Um, which I love.
• 18:29
  Chris Luzniak: Cause then they're, when I do a best mistake debate, I love that because then they say the best mistake is that, and they're valuing mistakes in my class, which is a whole nother layer of awesomeness that happens.
• 18:39
  Chris Luzniak: Um, what was your question?
• 18:43
  Vanessa Vakharia: Well, I also was like so unfair.
• 18:44
  Vanessa Vakharia: I was like, I didn't even ask him a question.
• 18:46
  Vanessa Vakharia: So, no, that, so that, good.
• 18:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: You're like, you were just talking about how you bring up like basically a non curricular topic to get them talking.
• 18:52
  Vanessa Vakharia: And then you like wean into math.
• 18:54
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I, my, my real question is, What power do you think debate in math class has in helping kids work through their math anxiety and their math trauma?
• 19:05
  Chris Luzniak: A, a lot.
• 19:06
  Chris Luzniak: I don't have like researched answers, but I can say like, from experience
• 19:09
  Vanessa Vakharia: You don't need a, this is not a research podcast in case that wasn't very clear.
• 19:14
  Chris Luzniak: Screw that.
• 19:15
  Chris Luzniak: Uh, no, uh, um,
• 19:18
  Vanessa Vakharia: Just from your experience, like, have you seen it transform anyone?
• 19:21
  Chris Luzniak: Yeah.
• 19:21
  Chris Luzniak: I think there's something about asking about the process and not the answer.
• 19:26
  Chris Luzniak: Like the students don't feel like they have to be correct.
• 19:28
  Chris Luzniak: And so students are more eager to jump in.
• 19:31
  Chris Luzniak: And I, like, I work a lot with teachers now as a consultant.
• 19:34
  Chris Luzniak: And I just think about, like, a couple months ago, I was working with some teachers, and they asked me to model debate in their class.
• 19:39
  Chris Luzniak: So I just, we went in, we planned a lesson ahead of time, and then I went in and taught it, and the first thing I did was ask a debate question about, about something, I can't remember, a slope or something.
• 19:48
  Chris Luzniak: Um, you know, a girl raised her hand and shared out, some more people shared out.
• 19:51
  Chris Luzniak: And at the end, when we debriefed the lesson, the teacher said, that girl who shared first has never spoken all year in my class.
• 19:58
  Chris Luzniak: But she several times raised her hand and wanted participate because she suddenly felt comfortable, she suddenly has a voice.
• 20:05
  Chris Luzniak: She doesn't have to know the answer, but she has some opinion about things, and so she can talk about it.
• 20:09
  Chris Luzniak: And then maybe, hopefully, as a teacher, she's going to learn it as we talk about it, because she's not just being passive and ignoring me anymore, right?
• 20:16
  Chris Luzniak: She's engaged in the learning a little bit, which is my goal.
• 20:20
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I would like imagine so many amazing things could come from this because it's like, once that girl is talking, she's more likely to talk or raise her hand when she has an actual question about something.
• 20:31
  Vanessa Vakharia: You know what I mean?
• 20:31
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's like now her voice is being valued in the classroom.
• 20:34
  Vanessa Vakharia: She's broken the ice and she's already used it.
• 20:36
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's like the gateway drug, like debate is the gateway drug to actually like
• 20:40
  Chris Luzniak: To joining math class.
• 20:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 20:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like I think it's very, cool.
• 20:43
  Chris Luzniak: And I was gonna say, like, I think a lot of it is students come in thinking math is like black and white, and there's like this, this desired answer and the desired method that you want, and there's no, like, options, and there's, there's no openness to it.
• 20:56
  Chris Luzniak: And, uh, so debate helps them see that like, I'm not looking for you to say seven and then I can give you a sticker and we can move on.
• 21:05
  Chris Luzniak: I'm looking to hear your thoughts and like that is much more engaging for students and much more manageable for them to join in and not feel like anxious about, do I have the right answer or am I, am I good at math or am I dumb?
• 21:16
  Chris Luzniak: You know, that kind of like black and white polarized thing.
• 21:19
  Vanessa Vakharia: Well, and that's so, so I'm like such a big proponent of the fact that like, cool, I want kids to learn math, I do.
• 21:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: But I also think that the most important thing that can come out of math class is the belief that you are capable of more than you thought you were.
• 21:34
  Vanessa Vakharia: Because so many kids go into math class with a deficit perspective, because they've been told at some point that they can't do math in the traditional sense of like getting the right answer quickly, whatever.
• 21:43
  Vanessa Vakharia: So, like, to me, I'm like, one skill, we were talking about this when we weren't recording, one skill that I think the world, we can both agree the world needs now more than ever is the ability to hear different opinions, to actively listen, to be open minded, to feel like you can speak your mind while also not just teaming up with one side because we're so polarized.
• 22:05
  Vanessa Vakharia: And like what an incredible way to build that skill in math class in a place where people are already scared.
• 22:12
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, I'm just, like, so fascinated by all the, like, rich work you're doing.
• 22:16
  Vanessa Vakharia: Because I would imagine that, like, kids leave your math class being like, well, this is how you, you engage with, this is how you communicate.
• 22:23
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, you listen to people, you sometimes see two sides of a story.
• 22:29
  Chris Luzniak: Yes, I will say, uh, when I'm, modeling a lesson in teacher's classrooms and stuff, one of the biggest feedback comments I get from teachers is you're a really good listener.
• 22:41
  Chris Luzniak: Like, I think all the time, like we're so listening for the right answer, and I'm just listening to the student and like, what is it, you know, or don't know.
• 22:50
  Chris Luzniak: And like, think about like, uh, if you have a square with a side of four and ask for the area, you say 16, you might have been counting the perimeter.
• 22:56
  Chris Luzniak: Right?
• 22:56
  Chris Luzniak: Like I, 16 doesn't mean you're right.
• 22:58
  Chris Luzniak: So it's like say more to me first.
• 23:01
  Chris Luzniak: Right?
• 23:02
  Chris Luzniak: Um, Or like I did this, with a student.
• 23:04
  Chris Luzniak: I said something like what's 10 plus 10, some younger students, and they said, uh, eight.
• 23:10
  Chris Luzniak: And instead of shutting them down saying you're wrong, I was just like, Oh, so tell me how you got that.
• 23:14
  Chris Luzniak: And they're like, well, 10 o'clock plus 10 hours is eight because we had been talking about time, like kind of on a tangent, but her mind was still on that.
• 23:22
  Chris Luzniak: And so instead of shutting her down and being like, you're right, you're wrong.
• 23:24
  Chris Luzniak: I'm just like, tell me about your thinking.
• 23:26
  Chris Luzniak: And she was totally right.
• 23:27
  Chris Luzniak: 10 plus 10 is eight when you're talking about time in some, some sense.
• 23:31
  Chris Luzniak: And so I go back to my point.
• 23:33
  Chris Luzniak: Like, I think every side in a debate has some kernel of truth, something that they're, they're getting at.
• 23:38
  Chris Luzniak: And I want to hear more about it to understand what's in their head, not just if they're right or wrong.
• 23:42
  Chris Luzniak: And I think we're, this world just, everyone just wants to be right or wrong.
• 23:44
  Chris Luzniak: I want to be in the right, right political party.
• 23:46
  Chris Luzniak: I want to be in the right group.
• 23:47
  Chris Luzniak: I want to go to the right college, like all these right things.
• 23:49
  Chris Luzniak: And it's like, just, just enjoy life and the complications of it.
• 23:53
  Chris Luzniak: And I, we're getting further from that as we get more polarized.
• 23:57
  Vanessa Vakharia: So, this is the thing I really wanted to talk about because I've also noticed as, you know, we're both podcasters, you have guests on, you engage in discussion, I am on social media all the time talking about things.
• 24:08
  Vanessa Vakharia: I, I know everyone's noticed this, but I, like, when I tell my friends, when I'm like, oh my god, I'm getting all these like, crazy, I just got two new comments today on my Instagram post.
• 24:17
  Vanessa Vakharia: Can I read them to you?
• 24:19
  Vanessa Vakharia: My post was, my post was about, um, whether we should memorize math facts or not.
• 24:23
  Vanessa Vakharia: Comment number one:"oh my god, you're today's winner of the dumbest idea on the internet".
• 24:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: And then let me tell you the second comment,"girl, shut up".
• 24:34
  Vanessa Vakharia: The reason I bring that up is when I tell my friends this, they're like, wait, about math?
• 24:39
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I'm like, yes.
• 24:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm like, like, you know, they're used to the, you know, the polarized things you see on the internet about like, juicier stuff, politics racism, sexism, climate don't know.
• 24:51
  Vanessa Vakharia: And they're like, wait, about the times tables?
• 24:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I'm like, yes, because it's literally everywhere.
• 24:56
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like it's literally everywhere.
• 24:57
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I think about like your students having opinion, like take social media out of it, your students having opinions on the best way to solve a problem or the fact that they get the wrong answer.
• 25:07
  Vanessa Vakharia: And they are probably actually used to thinking.
• 25:09
  Vanessa Vakharia: Well, I'm going to be shut, I'm going to be told I'm fucking stupid.
• 25:12
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, this girl just told me to shut up on the internet.
• 25:14
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, that's probably what they're expecting.
• 25:16
  Vanessa Vakharia: So, A, you're raising a generation, like, of kids, of young people, who know not to engage with one another that way.
• 25:23
  Vanessa Vakharia: That's the first very cool thing.
• 25:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: But how do we, reconcile the fact that even though we might be technically or visibly or like, you know, objectively on the opposite side of the spectrum on someone, on an opinion, that we can still have something in common.
• 25:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: Does that make sense?
• 25:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like I, I feel like it's like, like I have a neighbor with a Confederate flag, which I, I could, I could shut that down immediately and be like, I'm never gonna speak to him.
• 25:52
  Vanessa Vakharia: We obviously don't agree on the fact that he thinks it's okay to fly a confederate flag, but we have a ton of stuff in common and we have learned that through speaking with each other for two years and engaging in conversation and actually quite respectfully disagreeing with one another when we do and agreeing with each other when we do.
• 26:09
  Chris Luzniak: I love that.
• 26:09
  Chris Luzniak: I wish, I wish that was what we saw in news media, the respectful disagreements.
• 26:15
  Chris Luzniak: Like I disagree with you on this healthcare policy because, but I, but I understand where you're coming from.
• 26:19
  Chris Luzniak: We just see people looking for soundbites and to polarize their audience quickly.
• 26:23
  Chris Luzniak: So they get the votes, not a thoughtful, like well reasoned discussion.
• 26:28
  Chris Luzniak: And like I was saying to you earlier, that this is, my podcast is an hour long every time, because I want to hear people out and I want them to talk through their ideas and not just give me a quick soundbite of like memorize facts or don't memorize facts.
• 26:42
  Chris Luzniak: We're done.
• 26:42
  Chris Luzniak: I'm like, why is that?
• 26:44
  Chris Luzniak: Or what, what times would you memorize or not memorize?
• 26:46
  Chris Luzniak: Like, you know, how nuanced is your answer?
• 26:49
  Chris Luzniak: And, I think that makes us all better if we hear both sides out because then we can decide for ourselves what really works for us.
• 26:56
  Chris Luzniak: Because every teacher is different, every district is different, school, students, right?
• 26:59
  Chris Luzniak: So I don't think there's one right way to teach anything specifically, but I want you to, if you're going to do some action, do it well informed of what the different options are, the different sides would say, like why you might or why you might not do this, what good or harm each side could be doing for what you're doing for students.
• 27:18
  Vanessa Vakharia: So, do you ever, like, get into a situation, because I feel like this would happen to me, it's not just because I'm, like, a Gemini and I can see both sides, but, like, do you ever have a situation where your two podcast guests are on different sides, and at the end, they, like, come around to agree with each other?
• 27:33
  Chris Luzniak: Oh, uh, yeah,
• 27:34
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah?
• 27:35
  Chris Luzniak: Yeah, yeah.
• 27:36
  Chris Luzniak: I wouldn't say like in full agreement, but they like, they find lots of common ground sometimes, uh, sometimes, not always, But the Venn diagram like can overlap more and more as we talk about things.
• 27:47
  Chris Luzniak: And this is just like your neighbor.
• 27:48
  Chris Luzniak: Like the more you talk, the more you see that your Venn diagrams overlap.
• 27:51
  Chris Luzniak: And I wish we all did that.
• 27:53
  Chris Luzniak: And that, that's actually a lot of the work that I'm doing now is I've been researching and working with some organizations.
• 27:58
  Chris Luzniak: Like, how do you actually change someone's mind?
• 28:02
  Chris Luzniak: And like looking at like research and like cult mentality and
• 28:05
  Vanessa Vakharia: Ooh, oh my god, wait, wait, wait, wait, what?
• 28:07
  Vanessa Vakharia: You said my, said my amazing trigger word.
• 28:10
  Vanessa Vakharia: I love cults.
• 28:10
  Vanessa Vakharia: What about it?
• 28:12
  Chris Luzniak: This is a whole nother discussion for another day.
• 28:13
  Chris Luzniak: We can go on for hours.
• 28:14
  Chris Luzniak: But, like, I just, like, how much people, um, once they, like, lean into something, they are more afraid to change their mind if they're going to upset their social group.
• 28:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh my god, oh my god, oh my god, have you seen the Flat Earth documentary?
• 28:29
  Chris Luzniak: No.
• 28:30
  Vanessa Vakharia: No, no, no.
• 28:30
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm serious.
• 28:31
  Vanessa Vakharia: What's it called?
• 28:32
  Vanessa Vakharia: Beyond the,
• 28:33
  Chris Luzniak: Beyond The Curve?
• 28:34
  Vanessa Vakharia: Beyond The Curve.
• 28:35
  Vanessa Vakharia: You have to, because it's all about it, and it's like, so you just said if it's going to upset their social group, and I would go one step further because what, what the guy says in there, because basically by the end of the documentary, like, they have proven to him that the world is not flat, and he's just like, I can't change my opinion on this, because, it's who I am at this point and my entire friend, like exactly my social, I would have nothing if I let go of it.
• 28:58
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like the closer you like, um, attach an opinion to who you are, you can't let go of it.
• 29:05
  Vanessa Vakharia: Whereas if I'm like, well, I'm this very multifaceted person, and one of the many things I believe is like, there are other ways to learn your math facts than memorize, it's easier for me to change my mind, cause that's not like my core identity.
• 29:18
  Chris Luzniak: For sure.
• 29:18
  Vanessa Vakharia: So how do you change people's minds?
• 29:20
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, what are you finding?
• 29:22
  Chris Luzniak: it's a, long discussion.
• 29:23
  Chris Luzniak: Um, but what you're doing with your neighbor, like that's a big part of it, like really connecting and just listening to people.
• 29:29
  Chris Luzniak: I, I know from experience and from what I've been doing recently, uh, I will only change people's minds by listening to them.
• 29:38
  Chris Luzniak: Um, can, I cannot, I cannot facts at them and, and make them change their mind because they've decided this for a reason, right?
• 29:44
  Chris Luzniak: And then they're tied to their identity, their social group, like all these things.
• 29:47
  Chris Luzniak: And so I need to listen to them and just ask about why they think that way or where that story came from, like where that belief came from.
• 29:55
  Chris Luzniak: And as we unpack it together, like we can slowly, but it's, it's moving a boulder, right?
• 29:59
  Chris Luzniak: We're just going to slowly nudge it a little bit along the way of getting you to be more introspective about a topic.
• 30:04
  Chris Luzniak: And like, that's what my podcast is about.
• 30:06
  Chris Luzniak: Like, I just want you to think about both sides a little bit more and not just have a quick answer to some of these topics.
• 30:12
  Vanessa Vakharia: I like, wanna cry.
• 30:13
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, honestly, I feel very validated because I feel like, that's my approach too, like I want to just ask questions and understand.
• 30:20
  Vanessa Vakharia: Because sometimes the reasoning behind why you think something is not at all what I thought it was, you know?
• 30:28
  Vanessa Vakharia: And like even in the math, like the math education world, like I'm sure a lot of people listening to this are like, this probably really resonates because it's so polarized and people want to take sides.
• 30:38
  Vanessa Vakharia: I think that comes from a place of fear of being like, well, I just have to like, pick one side or like they're going to, like, I've, I will just say I've personally felt very bullied, in a way, by people being like, well, you're either with us or you're against us, like pick.
• 30:52
  Vanessa Vakharia: Whereas I'm like, well, no, like I agree with a little bit of column A and a little bit of column B.
• 30:57
  Vanessa Vakharia: And like, I think that comes from fear.
• 30:59
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I actually think it's rooted like psychologically in like our tribal nature.
• 31:02
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like when we used to literally like have enemy tribes after us.
• 31:07
  Vanessa Vakharia: So like to, to notice that is really important, but what you said, that idea of being like, until you understand where a person's coming from, you can't change their mind.
• 31:14
  Vanessa Vakharia: But also a big thing I've been learning, like I do a lot of like Deepak Chopra meditation, and a lot of his philosophy is to not be attached to outcome, to not feel like you ever need to change someone's mind.
• 31:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: You don't, right?
• 31:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like it's important to listen, it's important to be able to state your opinion, but in most cases, like the people you're arguing with or whatever, like, that doesn't need to be your goal to change your mind, nor are you like this martyr that's going to change their mind necessarily.
• 31:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: So when you can like let go of that, sorry, now this is just a podcast about me, I've not let you speak in one minute, in like 10 minutes, but wait, there's one thing I was going to, I'm leading up to is what I was going to say is I actually really believe that most people in math education are very well intentioned.
• 31:55
  Vanessa Vakharia: So like
• 31:56
  Chris Luzniak: Oh, 100%.
• 31:57
  Chris Luzniak: I believe all teachers mean the best.
• 31:59
  Chris Luzniak: That is my default belief.
• 32:01
  Vanessa Vakharia: Same.
• 32:02
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, maybe you don't believe in the way someone's teaching or whatever it is, but it's like, if you can at least look at that being like, they're doing this because they believe it's best for kids.
• 32:10
  Vanessa Vakharia: If we could start with that foundation, I feel like the discussions would be so much more, like, fruitful.
• 32:16
  Chris Luzniak: Yes.
• 32:17
  Chris Luzniak: We'd have to be more vulnerable though, as, as humans and be okay getting feedback and criticism and told like this part isn't working for the student.
• 32:25
  Chris Luzniak: And like, I don't know, we also need more time and space as teachers to reflect on all these things and we're, I, yeah, there's no time.
• 32:33
  Vanessa Vakharia: Well, like, we're gonna have to wrap up, but I have to ask you one last I'm asking you one last thing, and then I'm going into the final two questions.
• 32:39
  Chris Luzniak: Okay.
• 32:40
  Vanessa Vakharia: So, I've, like, lately been, like, I kind of want to do a season of the podcast where I'm like Joe Rogan but like for math education and like I only have people on that I like fundamentally right now don't agree with.
• 32:56
  Vanessa Vakharia: Do you think that's a bad career move?
• 33:00
  Chris Luzniak: What the hell, Vanessa, I can't, I can't give you career advice.
• 33:06
  Vanessa Vakharia: Do you think that's a bad, because we were talking about this.
• 33:08
  Vanessa Vakharia: People are always like, don't give people platforms who you don't agree with, or like who are doing something harmful, but I agree with you in that, like, it's not like I'm going to let them just monologue on the podcast.
• 33:16
  Vanessa Vakharia: I want to understand where they're coming from and I'd like to debate with them as well.
• 33:20
  Chris Luzniak: Yeah, I, I mean, I get a little pushback sometimes with some of the things we want to debate and like, you know, we, we shouldn't give those people time and space to share this idea.
• 33:29
  Chris Luzniak: Like you shouldn't memorize math facts or whatever, right?
• 33:32
  Chris Luzniak: Like we shouldn't have them on, but I, but again, I think there's a kernel of truth in both sides and I want to hear them out and I think everything online gets reduced to a soundbite and so I want to hear them out.
• 33:44
  Chris Luzniak: I just like, the great thing about mine is we have two sides on a debate.
• 33:47
  Chris Luzniak: So I have someone to counter something that I might not agree with to bring out the other side of things.
• 33:52
  Chris Luzniak: And so I want the audience to think for themselves.
• 33:54
  Chris Luzniak: I want to just put it all out there.
• 33:55
  Chris Luzniak: But I feel like if we just keep ignoring things, it just kind of festers and grows, some of these ideas, especially with the internet and social media.
• 34:04
  Chris Luzniak: Many of your listeners think flat earth is silly, right, but, but if we never like, talk about it or talk to those people, they'll just keep like in their bubble and like festering and getting angrier and spreading to more angry people.
• 34:15
  Chris Luzniak: And so like, I, I think it's important to give space as long as you're like hearing multiple sides.
• 34:23
  Vanessa Vakharia: And if you are a flat earther listening to the podcast, we would love to have you on.
• 34:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: So, get in touch with us.
• 34:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: I would love that.
• 34:31
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay, we need to move on to the final two questions.
• 34:35
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay?
• 34:35
  Chris Luzniak: Okay.
• 34:36
  Vanessa Vakharia: Final two questions.
• 34:37
  Vanessa Vakharia: What is the one thing you'd like to see change about the way math is taught in schools?
• 34:42
  Chris Luzniak: I only get one?
• 34:43
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yep.
• 34:44
  Chris Luzniak: Um, I want to change the standards, the curriculum.
• 34:49
  Chris Luzniak: We pack too much in, we race to calculus for no reason, like it is.
• 34:54
  Chris Luzniak: At least in the U.
• 34:55
  Chris Luzniak: S.
• 34:55
  Chris Luzniak: I don't know exactly how it all goes in Canada.
• 34:57
  Chris Luzniak: I have some idea.
• 34:58
  Chris Luzniak: But like, it is just jam packed with stuff that we don't need for any reason.
• 35:03
  Chris Luzniak: We, we carry phones and calculators in our pocket.
• 35:06
  Chris Luzniak: We don't need to like, memorize all these formulas and things.
• 35:09
  Chris Luzniak: Like, let's make math much more relevant and interesting and update it a lot.
• 35:15
  Vanessa Vakharia: Love it.
• 35:16
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 35:16
  Vanessa Vakharia: And finally, what do you say to someone who's like, but Chris, I'm just not a math person.
• 35:24
  Chris Luzniak: Uh, there's no such thing.
• 35:26
  Chris Luzniak: I, I mean, people say that, yes, but there's no such thing as not a math person.
• 35:30
  Chris Luzniak: What does that mean?
• 35:31
  Chris Luzniak: Like you don't know how to count to five.
• 35:32
  Chris Luzniak: You don't see patterns in your life.
• 35:34
  Chris Luzniak: Like what, what, what does that mean?
• 35:35
  Chris Luzniak: I, of course you're a math person.
• 35:36
  Chris Luzniak: You may not have been a good school math person for the teachers you had, cause they wanted you to do things a certain way and memorize things a certain way or do things, you know, specifically in one method, but, we're all like, I'm a big escape room enthusiast
• 35:52
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh my god, I love an escape room.
• 35:54
  Chris Luzniak: I've gone to over a hundred now and we're counting.
• 35:57
  Chris Luzniak: Um, getting involved in some escape rooms locally and stuff too, but, uh, I love them.
• 36:01
  Chris Luzniak: And a lot of the people that I've met in the community, like don't see themselves as math people, but I'm like, all you're doing is looking for patterns and like decoding things.
• 36:09
  Chris Luzniak: Like this is math, but this is where I see the curriculum and the standards have failed, because we've told them that math is memorizing this encyclopedia of formulas, not the reasoning and problem solving that we really want.
• 36:22
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 36:22
  Vanessa Vakharia: All right.
• 36:23
  Vanessa Vakharia: We have to say goodbye soon, but tell us, can you do, no, no.
• 36:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: Can tell us, like, give us, what do you want people to know, see, look you up, like do all those things.
• 36:31
  Vanessa Vakharia: So I
• 36:32
  Chris Luzniak: Yeah.
• 36:32
  Chris Luzniak: Come find me.
• 36:33
  Chris Luzniak: Um, easiest way is just my last name, Luzniak.Com, L U Z N I A K.
• 36:38
  Chris Luzniak: On social media, I'm@cluzniak on like Instagram, Twitter or X or whatever the heck that is, Blue Sky, all those things.
• 36:45
  Chris Luzniak: I have a workshop about debate math on Grassroots Workshop.
• 36:48
  Chris Luzniak: I have a book Up For Debate, um, that you can find on Amazon or anywhere like just come talk to me.
• 36:54
  Chris Luzniak: I work with schools and districts now and send me an email.
• 36:57
  Chris Luzniak: Let's just talk.
• 36:57
  Chris Luzniak: I I'd love to talk about math with anyone and, watch how debate can change your classroom.
• 37:02
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh my god, oh my, like what an amazing episode.
• 37:06
  Vanessa Vakharia: okay.
• 37:06
  Vanessa Vakharia: Thank you so much for being on the pod.
• 37:08
  Vanessa Vakharia: Had the best time and goodbye.
• 37:14
  Chris Luzniak: Goodbye.
• 37:15
  Chris Luzniak: love you.
• 37:16
  Vanessa Vakharia: Love you.
• 37:16
  David Kochberg: Great job.
• 37:17
  David Kochberg: Great job saying goodbye.
• 37:22
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh my God, guys, I'm obsessed with Chris.
• 37:24
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, I'm sorry, but now I need to go argue with someone about something immediately.
• 37:28
  Vanessa Vakharia: Also, do we need a part two about cults?
• 37:31
  Vanessa Vakharia: Because literally, if one person says yes, I will do it.
• 37:34
  Vanessa Vakharia: I honestly think that the idea of fostering debate vibes in math class is one of the most underrated ideas and I'm so excited for you guys to try it.
• 37:42
  Vanessa Vakharia: Also, I really want to fight, respectfully, with someone on Chris's Debate Math podcast, and Dan Meyer already said no to me, so who should it be, and what topic should we fight about?
• 37:51
  Vanessa Vakharia: DMs are officially open, let me know, and let's get this show on the road.
• 37:58
  Vanessa Vakharia: if something in this episode inspired you, please tweet us@maththerapy, and you can also follow me personally@themathguru on Instagram, Twitter, and TikTok.
• 38:07
  Vanessa Vakharia: Math Therapy is hosted by me, Vanessa Vakharia, it was created by me and Sabina Wex, and it's produced and edited by David Kochberg.
• 38:15
  Vanessa Vakharia: Our theme music is by Goodnight Sunrise.
• 38:17
  Vanessa Vakharia: And guys, if you know someone who needs math therapy or just needs to hear someone else getting math therapy, please, please, please share this podcast, and rate or review it on whatever podcast app you use.
• 38:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: Those things actually make such a big difference for us.
• 38:32
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm determined to change the culture surrounding math and I need your help, so spread the word.
• 38:36
  Vanessa Vakharia: Until next time, peace, love, and pi.