Latest / Wellness, Actually with Emily Oster & Perry Wilson, MD / Bonus: Book Talk with Hillary Frank (The Longest Shortest Time)

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Bonus: Book Talk with Hillary Frank (The Longest Shortest Time) · Wellness, Actually with Emily Oster & Perry Wilson, MD

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Today's bonus episode is an audio recording from one of
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: my appearances last month in Montclair, New Jersey.
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  Speaker 2: It was an amazing night. Hundreds of people were there.
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  Speaker 1: Hillary Frank was there, and now you can be there
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: too in some small way by listening to this episode.
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  Speaker 1: The event was hosted by Watching Bookstore and held at
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  Speaker 1: Temple and Naartimead. I was so lucky to be joined
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  Speaker 1: by Hillary Frank, who asked me some really thoughtful, smart
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: questions about my work on parenting. If you don't know her,
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  Speaker 1: Hillary is the creator of the podcast The Longest Shortest
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  Speaker 1: Time and here lies me and the author of the
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  Speaker 1: book Weird Parenting Wins. Big thanks to her and to
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  Speaker 1: all of you who came out and asked her questions
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  Speaker 1: at the end, and now here's Hillary.
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  Speaker 3: I am so happy to be here with Emily, and
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  Speaker 3: we're grateful that we could be here at NAIR to me,
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  Speaker 3: thank you to Narutmead for hosting us, and to Watch
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  Speaker 3: Young Books for putting this on. So Emily, welcome to Montclair, Bloomfield.
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  Speaker 2: In Bloomfield, so your.
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  Speaker 3: Book is called The Family Firm and you focus on
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  Speaker 3: what you call the business of parenting. And as I
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  Speaker 3: was reading the book, I couldn't help thinking so much
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  Speaker 3: of parenting in parenthood feels emotional.
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: It's all emotionally charged.
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  Speaker 3: But when I think of business, I think we want
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  Speaker 3: to take the emotion out of that. So can you
• 1:31
  Speaker 3: explain what you mean about like making parenting a business?
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  Speaker 2: Absolutely? So, I think that when we when we first
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  Speaker 2: engage with.
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  Speaker 1: Someone, we like get married to them, we sort of
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  Speaker 1: like trust that we're going to like build this life
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  Speaker 1: together and we like each other, and it's it's like
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  Speaker 1: pretty It's not easy always, but you know, you kind
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  Speaker 1: of have your you're doing your stuff, and you're doing
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  Speaker 1: your your things separately from each other, and it's like great,
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: you get together, you have dinner together, it's fairy black.
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  Speaker 2: And then you have a kid.
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  Speaker 1: It's like, oh my god, Like we have to do
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  Speaker 1: so many things that we didn't think about that we
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: were going to have to do, and we have to
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  Speaker 1: do them all at the same time.
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  Speaker 2: And then you.
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  Speaker 1: Kind of get your feet under you. And then your
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: kid gets a little older, and the family firm sort
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  Speaker 1: of is kind of, at least for me, motivated a
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  Speaker 1: lot by the experience of having at least slightly older kids,
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  Speaker 1: where the logistics sort of start being.
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  Speaker 2: Like this enormous part of your life.
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  Speaker 1: So it's like this, you know, this kid has to
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  Speaker 1: be here at this time, this person has to be
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: here at this time, Like there's the birthday parties, Who's.
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: Going to be in charge of this? And you end
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: up with the enormous management problem.
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  Speaker 1: I think what happens often there is although you are
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: basically running what I refer to as a small to
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: medium sized enterprise, you are doing it with the tools
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: of like two people who can just lay around on
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  Speaker 1: the couch whenever they want and never have to do anything,
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  Speaker 1: And somehow that's like not meshing, and I think often
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  Speaker 1: we end up in this situation where you think, well,
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  Speaker 1: it's just.
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  Speaker 2: Going to work out because we love each other.
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  Speaker 1: And I guess the message of the book is like
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  Speaker 1: you could love your partner but still want them to
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: like complete their asana tasks, and that if you in fact,
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  Speaker 1: like structure things so people know more about what it's expected,
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  Speaker 1: so you've actually sort of thought deliberately about the choices
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  Speaker 1: you want to make and how you want your day
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  Speaker 1: to go and who's going to do what, that you
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  Speaker 1: could actually have more time to like lay on the
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  Speaker 1: couch or do the things that you like to do
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  Speaker 1: before because you aren't sort of constantly fighting fires on
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  Speaker 1: the logistics side.
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  Speaker 2: And so I think that's that's hard.
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  Speaker 1: And someone The message of the book is almost to
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  Speaker 1: get people to recognize I think that like, just because
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  Speaker 1: we are having an email exchange about this like experience
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  Speaker 1: doesn't mean I don't like you.
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  Speaker 2: Like it's not that I don't like you, and that's
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  Speaker 2: why I'm emailing you.
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  Speaker 1: It's just that I we are also like trying to
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  Speaker 1: run a business here, and we can separate those and
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: so I sort of like it's one of the Like
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  Speaker 1: my husband's also an economist, so it's like much easier.
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  Speaker 1: I think it was easier for us to take a
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: little bit of that leap because like we're both total
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  Speaker 1: weirdose and and and so I think.
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  Speaker 2: For but I think everyone could be a little you know,
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  Speaker 2: just marri An. Economists say you'll be fine.
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  Speaker 1: That's my that's the takeaway for today.
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  Speaker 3: So when people go into parenting, I think that we
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  Speaker 3: have a lot of shoulds on our mind of like
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  Speaker 3: how you should get your kids to sleep, and how
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  Speaker 3: you should feed them and and and like the things
• 4:23
  Speaker 3: get more complicated as they get older. So what are
• 4:27
  Speaker 3: some of the shoulds that you've heard.
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  Speaker 1: I think what's great about shoulds is that you can
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  Speaker 1: you can be should in both directions. So you know,
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  Speaker 1: you should uh put their kid in there in there
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  Speaker 1: to sleep in their own room, but you also should
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: have them sleep in your bed, and you also should
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: have them sleep in their own bed in your own room.
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  Speaker 1: And you also should breastfeed forever, but you also should
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  Speaker 1: stop pretty So I think like this, this culture, the
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  Speaker 1: sort of pressures of parenting, I think do come around
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  Speaker 1: a lot of the the sort of expectations that other
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: people put on the things that we should do, and
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  Speaker 1: often are the pressure is because like I think you
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  Speaker 1: should do the things that I do.
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  Speaker 2: That's basically what I think, Like that's the kind of.
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  Speaker 1: Fundamental culture of interacting with other people's parenting is that
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  Speaker 1: they should be doing what you're doing.
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  Speaker 2: And the reason for that is because that's how you
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  Speaker 2: know you're doing a good job.
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  Speaker 1: And I think we got to break that a little
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  Speaker 1: bit and say, like, you know, I should do I
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  Speaker 1: should do the things that work for me, and you
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  Speaker 1: should do the things you work for you.
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  Speaker 2: And just because they're not the same things.
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  Speaker 1: You know, doesn't mean that like one of us is shoulding,
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  Speaker 1: is shoulding wrong? But you know, it's it's it's difficult
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  Speaker 1: not to want other people to do to do your things.
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  Speaker 3: You said in the book that you have a friend
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  Speaker 3: who who fed, who ate with his kids at the
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  Speaker 3: table because otherwise he heard that they would be some
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  Speaker 3: serial killers.
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  Speaker 2: He did tell me, he did tell me that that's
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  Speaker 2: why he did that.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, And then but then what's what's so
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  Speaker 1: interesting about like that example is that then I had
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  Speaker 1: another that person's not surprisingly an economist, is that most
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: of my friends are economists, but.
• 6:05
  Speaker 2: The conversations with another economists.
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  Speaker 1: And she explained that when she got married to her
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  Speaker 1: to her husband, he was like we eat dinner together
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  Speaker 1: like his family, like eat dinner together night.
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  Speaker 2: And she explained to me, like how messed up she
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: thought that was.
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  Speaker 1: And like basically the first time she went she was like,
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  Speaker 1: I couldn't believe what these people are. Like they're like
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: at six o'clock everyone has happen to be at the
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  Speaker 1: dinner table, Like what.
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  Speaker 2: Kind of nut jobs are?
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  Speaker 4: You know?
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  Speaker 1: And she had like kind of this like lovely childhood
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  Speaker 1: where she was like very close to her parents and
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  Speaker 1: everything worked her grace just like that wasn't part of
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  Speaker 1: their their thing, that wasn't part of their structure, that
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  Speaker 1: wasn't the time that they that they connected. And so
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  Speaker 1: I think there's this this sort of the shoulds or
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  Speaker 1: the gid are so much driven by what either what
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  Speaker 1: we've heard or the experiences that we had. And you know,
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  Speaker 1: and I mean, I feel very strongly you have to
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  Speaker 1: be sitting at the table. But I'm also I also
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  Speaker 1: it's not because of the serial killer thing. The side benefits.
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  Speaker 3: So I have a kid who's turning thirteen in a
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  Speaker 3: little more than a week. The luck, thank you, But
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  Speaker 3: I really wish that I had had this book like
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  Speaker 3: thirteen years ago.
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  Speaker 2: So I'm really mad at you, but I.
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  Speaker 3: Think really because it would have saved me a lot
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  Speaker 3: of really intense arguments with my husband. And you make
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  Speaker 3: the argument that those kinds of arguments, a lot of
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  Speaker 3: them are due to poor family management. So can you
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  Speaker 3: give us some examples of like how this happens, Like
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  Speaker 3: what where is the breakdown that causes these arguments?
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  Speaker 2: So I think a good example of this is.
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  Speaker 1: Actually like, so I'm out of town today and I'm
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  Speaker 1: not out of town that much. And I think that
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  Speaker 1: one of the things that happened when sort of one
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  Speaker 1: person is the primary parent in some in sort of
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  Speaker 1: some domain and you haven't really taught talked about how
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  Speaker 1: that domain goes.
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  Speaker 2: When they then are are not there, things happen wrong.
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  Speaker 2: So you know, we like like we I think.
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  Speaker 1: During bedtime that you know, bedtime is at eight thirty,
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  Speaker 1: and like I every night I do bedtime and I
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  Speaker 1: do bedtime and I do badtime, and bedtime is a
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  Speaker 1: thirty And then you imagine this scenario where like I'm
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  Speaker 1: out of town and like I call it ten and my.
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  Speaker 2: Partner is like, well, like kids still is watching TV.
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  Speaker 2: And I'm like, what fuck? It's the matter with you?
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  Speaker 1: Like it's like it's bedtime is eight thirty, Like are
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  Speaker 1: you crazy? And it's like, well, that's I didn't that's
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  Speaker 1: not my role, like you know, and I think that
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  Speaker 1: is a source of conflict. And what's hard about that
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  Speaker 1: kind of conflict if you haven't talked about it in advance,
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  Speaker 1: is that how does my partner know that, Like my
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  Speaker 1: bedtime rule is really strict, but you know.
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  Speaker 2: My rule about like do you have to take a bath?
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  Speaker 1: It's like very relaxed, right, And I like my personal
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: situation is like bedtime is like very fixed and bedtime
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: is bedtime, and like that is totally no negotiable.
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  Speaker 2: But I couldn't care less if you take a bath.
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  Speaker 1: Like it's true, I will give my kids a bat.
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  Speaker 1: My husband doesn't do baths, it's not his thing. Fine,
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  Speaker 1: so the kids will diry, So not such a big deal.
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  Speaker 1: But I think it's white, just white, exactly white, like
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  Speaker 1: white a little face.
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  Speaker 2: I mean, it's true he basically bathes in his food.
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  Speaker 2: But it's like it's like it's so.
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  Speaker 1: I think the sort of message I try to talk
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  Speaker 1: about in the book is that that like there's a
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  Speaker 1: huge amount of value to discussing some of these things
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  Speaker 1: in an upfront way, so you can agree on what
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  Speaker 1: are this or at least try to agree on some
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: of the things that are important to you on sort
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: of what are the aspects of parenting of your life?
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  Speaker 1: What are the values that you are you find most.
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  Speaker 2: Important, like in both the sort of abstract but also.
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  Speaker 1: In very concrete ways, like what are the things that
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: are most important to see sort of happen every every day.
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  Speaker 2: Now, I think there's like two caveats to that.
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  Speaker 1: So one is that if you start having those conversations
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  Speaker 1: and you are like the primary, the person who does most.
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  Speaker 2: Of the things, he can be easy to just be like,
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  Speaker 2: here are the rules. I we do this and this
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  Speaker 2: and this and this and this and this.
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  Speaker 1: I think there's a recognition talk about the sum in
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  Speaker 1: the book that like you cannot die on every hill,
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  Speaker 1: Like everything cannot be the most important thing. It can't
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  Speaker 1: be that when I leave town, you have to literally replicate.
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  Speaker 2: Me, because if I feel that way, I can't go.
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  Speaker 2: Like everything cannot be the most important thing.
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  Speaker 1: So sort of recognizing in these conversations that like some
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: things are shared values, some things are really important to
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: one of us, and some things are you know, more optional.
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: And the other piece of this it's hard is when
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: you start having conversations like this about you know, what's
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: important to me, what do I want to do, what's
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: important to my parenting, especially it's kind of big picture things.
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: Sometimes you will disagree, and it's really hard to have
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: a conversation where you know you will fight, but you
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: will fight anyway. If you disagree about some fundamental thing
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  Speaker 1: like what is a reasonable dinner or what should people
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: have for snack, or what kind of extracurriculars should they do,
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: or what kind of school they should go to, or
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: whatever it is you are going to argue about that.
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: There is no way to not have that argument. That
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: argument is arriving. It is better to have it on purpose,
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: surfacing those conflicts in a moment when you like have
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: a moment to talk about them, when you are not
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: in a hot state, when no one just messed it
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: up and did the thing you didn't want.
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  Speaker 2: I think that that is a better way, a more
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  Speaker 2: business ye way forward.
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  Speaker 1: Than to just wait until it comes up again and
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: again and again and screaming each other.
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  Speaker 3: So you talk a lot about decision making in the book, and.
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  Speaker 2: I think that.
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  Speaker 3: I think there's there's like endless decisions right to be
• 11:36
  Speaker 3: made that you never thought about, the kinds of macro
• 11:41
  Speaker 3: and micro decisions that you would have to make on
• 11:43
  Speaker 3: a daily basis as a parent. And you argue that
• 11:47
  Speaker 3: we shouldn't just go with our gut, which I think
• 11:49
  Speaker 3: is like the easy thing to do, right, Like you're feeling,
• 11:52
  Speaker 3: you're feeling emotionally charged about something and you're like, this
• 11:56
  Speaker 3: is what I feel.
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  Speaker 2: I'm going to go.
• 11:57
  Speaker 3: With this choice. But but you argue that we should
• 12:01
  Speaker 3: invest time in deliberate decision making. So can you kind
• 12:05
  Speaker 3: of lay out what that looks like with with your
• 12:07
  Speaker 3: tools and model.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, So I think first I will say is like
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  Speaker 1: it can be okay to parent with your gut as
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: long as you are comfortable with all the things that
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: come after that.
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  Speaker 2: So I think some of the some of what happens when.
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: When people tell me that like that's the approach they
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: want to dig is then they explain that like they're
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: they're then upset when things don't like that they're that
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: they are.
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: They are then second guessing themselves, I guess, is what
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: I would say.
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: So I think some of the kind of like I'm
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: going to pawer with my gut works great. I think
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: if what that means is that you are constantly questioning
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: whether you did the right thing, then in fact, like
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: you're not really parenting with your with your gut in
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: quite the way that you maybe think that that you are.
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: And so this sort of alternative or this this approach
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: that I kind of take in the book is to
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: sort of just think through deliberately some of the some
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: of the things that either come up all the time
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: and think about like should we have policies about this?
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: Should we have like something written down about you know,
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  Speaker 1: the way we're going to operate this? And some of
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: that is about like literally like do we have a
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: policy about food?
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: Or like what do we want our schedule to look like?
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  Speaker 1: And some of it is this sort of bigger picture
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: of things, like you know, what are the three things
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: that are like that are going to serve me?
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: Like what are the three things.
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: That I want to see in my day every day?
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: What are the three things that like I want the
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: three like this three central values that our family has,
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: Like what's our family's mission statement?
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: I mean not every piece of this is going to
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: be I think helpful.
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: For every family, but taking a moment to in many
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: of these places really engage with the decisions that you're
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: making every day or occasional or you know, big decisions
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: that you make occasionally and trying to talk about them
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: and decide what you want to do.
• 13:48
  Speaker 3: Can you tell us what your family's mission statement is?
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: We're trying to raise adults, and I think that's like
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: for us, that's a big that's a big piece of
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: how we think about like what we're trying.
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: To do as parents is like get our kids ready
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  Speaker 2: to like leave us so we can lay on a
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: couch like we did before.
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: No, but just sort of thinking about like you know,
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: we think for us, that's like a big.
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: That's a big piece of it.
• 14:15
  Speaker 3: So let's talk about sleep.
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, let's do it right.
• 14:18
  Speaker 3: So, so in the book, you have examples of data
• 14:23
  Speaker 3: clearly showing that quality sleep is essential. So can you
• 14:28
  Speaker 3: can you give us an example of like how to
• 14:31
  Speaker 3: manage sleep, say, like, based on the data, how do
• 14:34
  Speaker 3: you pick a bed time?
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: Okay, so so sleep is totally great and uh, and
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: we have a lot as you said, there's like a
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: totum data showing that like kids, if kids do not
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: get enough sleep, like that's that's bad. And you can
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: show it in sort of manipulations where you give kids
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: even like an hour less sleep at uh at night
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: for a week and then they're like when they do
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: batter and tests and their parents say they're a jerk
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: and all kinds of stuff at the at the end
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: of the week. So there's a lot of evidence that
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: even sort of.
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: Relatively small manipulations.
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: Now when they tell you, like you ask like, well,
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: what's the right I'm asleep for like an elementary school kid,
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: it's like nine to eleven hours.
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: That's actually an enormously large range and uh and not.
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: And so the question is like, how would I know
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: if my kid is sleeping enough? And I think what
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: I like about this example is it's actually like not
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: there is an answer.
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: So there are kind of two things you're looking for.
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: One is like, is my kids sleepy at school?
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: And gives my kids seem sleepy during the day this
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: teachers say that they're sleepy like et cetera.
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: And the other is do they weekend over sleep?
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: So if you let your kid sleep, like if you're
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: sort of getting them up for school every day, but
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: then on the weekend you let them sleep as long
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: as they want and they go like two extra hours,
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: they're not sleeping enough, and then you know you should
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: like they should basically be getting up about the same time.
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: It's like adults, like, how do you know that you
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: are sleep deprived? If I told you, like it's Saturday
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: and like somebody's taking your kids and you can sleep
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: as late as you want, Like you're not getting up
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: at the same time that you like, don't look at me,
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: I know you're not getting up at the same time
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: that you that you were, and so if your kid
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: is doing that, that is a signal that they are
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: also sleeping left and so you need to tighten up.
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: I have found, I will say I have found with
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: my kids that.
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: That they this is something they really internalize.
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: So relative to like some other things like don't eat
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: so much candy, where I've made no progress at all,
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: the kind of idea that like you should like sleep
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: is important, and that you should be listening to your
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: body's cues about like whether you are tired, like they're
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: they are like like laser focused on whether they're they're
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: getting enough sleep, and like to the point of like
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: type like tight training or bed times by fifteen minutes
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: to try to like you know.
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: Optimize in various ways.
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: But but I feel like it's something kids can sort
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: of can can recognize a little.
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: Bit in themselves.
• 16:49
  Speaker 3: That's a great skill. So you've amassed so much data
• 16:55
  Speaker 3: for about parenthood and kids. What's some of the most
• 17:00
  Speaker 3: surprising data you've come across in your research.
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: The place I'm mostly surprised by data is when it
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: isn't there. And so when there are there are questions
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: I may I've talked to some lately various forms about
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: like data on on like breastfeeding or you know, like
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: treating mess titus, which is like a common breastfeeding complication,
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: or like storing breast milk, or you know, vaginal tearing
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: with its favorite topic that there are a lot of
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: the spaces in kind of pregnancy and particularly in sort
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: of things that are that are kind of medical but
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: women specific where uh, where I think we are lacking
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: inform Like we're just lacking information, And it's often in
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: places where I feel like that question is one hundred
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: percent answerable.
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: You know, there's a lot of heart Like there's a
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: lot of really hard questions.
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: In the world, like what is like what is the
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: optimal diet? It's like a really hard question, right, It's
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: really hard to figure out from data. It's hard to
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: do random I starts.
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: It's hard.
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: It's like a hard question the question of like how
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: long does breast milk stay fresh if you leave it
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: out on the counter. It's not hard, Like, it's not
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: a hard question. You know, people could answer that. And
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: so there are a lot of things like that where
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: I feel like we're just like, why don't we have
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: that and I don't know.
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: If that's part of my soap with my soapbox.
• 18:12
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, So a lot of the tools in your
• 18:17
  Speaker 3: book seem like primarily designed for two parent households in
• 18:26
  Speaker 3: middle of the upper middle class.
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: So I want to.
• 18:30
  Speaker 3: Have you talk about like parents who live outside of that,
• 18:36
  Speaker 3: Like what about one parent households, or people who are
• 18:40
  Speaker 3: co parenting with maybe an unwilling to participate parent, and
• 18:46
  Speaker 3: people who have fewer resources.
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, So I think it's I think one thing I'm
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: gonna say, like, I think there's an acknowledge me here
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: that a lot of the lot of the tools in
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: the book, or least some of the tools in the
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: book are really like well suited for, you know, when
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: you are trying to work out or values with someone else.
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: And I think at the same time, some at least
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: some of the choices in the book talking about school
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: choice and so on, our things where like resources by choice,
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: and there's a privilege and having those those kind of choices.
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: What I will say is, I think a lot of
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: the book is focused on these sort of bigger decision.
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: Making pieces, and those.
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: Pieces I don't think are as specific or should not
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: be as specific to sort of people with resources or
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: to particular family structures. I mean, in the end, like
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: we all face decisions pretty much no matter what our
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: circumstances are.
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: We all facesion, we all face decisions on our constraints.
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: And these tools these decisions is.
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: Basically about making optimal decisions or making the best decisions
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: for you under whatever the constraints are that you face.
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: And so I think those tools may be broadly useful.
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: And I also think.
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: It's important to just sort of recognize that like those
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: kind of those kind of skills are something that we
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: could convey more broadly, that the skill of understanding day
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: to the skill of sort of making decisions based on data.
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: I don't think she'd be the purview of sort of
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: particular groups of people.
• 20:07
  Speaker 3: So, you know, something that I really don't like with
• 20:12
  Speaker 3: a lot of parenting books is that they're written from
• 20:15
  Speaker 3: like a my way or the highway kind of perspective.
• 20:19
  Speaker 3: That's why I wrote Weird Parenting Wins. But the thing
• 20:25
  Speaker 3: about those books is that a lot of the time
• 20:27
  Speaker 3: they make you feel like you've already failed, right because
• 20:29
  Speaker 3: you are reading that you should have done something a
• 20:33
  Speaker 3: certain way, like three months ago or three years ago,
• 20:38
  Speaker 3: and in your book you talk about how, like ideally
• 20:44
  Speaker 3: we would be adopting some of these techniques when our
• 20:47
  Speaker 3: kids are babies, or maybe even before they're born.
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: But can you.
• 20:52
  Speaker 3: Give those of us hope who asking you for a friend,
• 20:56
  Speaker 3: but to say an almost thirteen year old, how can
• 20:59
  Speaker 3: we how can we incorporate some of these tools into
• 21:02
  Speaker 3: like an already existing family unit.
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, so I think that these that like
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: there's always opportunity to.
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: Alter up what you're doing.
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: I think, you know, one of the things, like one
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: of the sort of I had this decision framework and
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: there's the fourth ath is is follow up and the
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: idea that like most of the decisions we make, you
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: can change.
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: You can sort of change what you're doing. And I
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: think there are opportunities in.
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: Almost all of the spaces the times we are in
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: parenting to kind of re evaluate, you know, where we
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: are in terms of what we do. And I think
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: one thing, like for a lot of parents of slightly
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: older kids, is actually the question of like reevaluating how
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: much stuff we do right. And so when you tell
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: people like I wrote like a like a business book
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: about parenting, one of.
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: The things that people are like, oh, are you using.
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: Spreadsheets like cram or activities in And actually it's almost
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: like the opposite. So I think a lot of the
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: book is about like saying like, hey, you know, you
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: should sit down and think about, like what do you want.
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: Saturday to look like?
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: Do you want it to add actually be like back
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: to back travel soccer, in which case like that's awesome
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: and enjoy yourself. But if you don't want to be
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: back to back travel soccer, like you may actually need
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: to like actively choose to.
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: Not have that.
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: And I think those are choices that it's not too late.
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: It's never too late to make those those kind of choices.
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: And I think it's never too late to kind of
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: sit down and have some of these have some of
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: these conversations.
• 22:23
  Speaker 3: So it's like what's important to us the most, what
• 22:27
  Speaker 3: are the must haves? And then how do we work
• 22:29
  Speaker 3: backwards from there so that the other things don't take over?
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And recognizing like the constraints of time, right, like
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: you can't have your kids sleep, Like if your kid
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: has to go to bed at eight thirty to get
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: the amount of sleep that they need, they cannot do
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: gymnastics from five to nine because nine is after eight thirty,
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: And I think like that's like there's something very fundamental.
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: There are people like, oh well, just like just like
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: get it in. No, no, it's after eight thirty.
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: You know. And I think that that like some of
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: that kind of wrecking saying like what are the big
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: chunks and then we need to build around that, and
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: that's gonna involve trade offs and like.
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: Maybe you don't do gymnastics. It's okay, they're not going
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: to the Olympics. Nobody goes to the Olympics. Okay, I'm
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: gonna say nobody goes to the Olympics.
• 23:13
  Speaker 3: So I would love to open this up to audience questions.
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: Now, tell me your kids going to feel somebody's be like, actually,
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: my kid's at the Olympics.
• 23:23
  Speaker 4: Okay, you talked about you can't die on every hill,
• 23:28
  Speaker 4: but what if your partner doesn't have a lot of
• 23:31
  Speaker 4: hills and you do, like, how do you.
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: How do you comprom Yeah, I mean.
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: I think so there's a there's a there's a distinction
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: between like you can't have you can't die in.
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: Every hill and you can't make every rule.
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: So if the answer is like my partner is like
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: is happy with whatever and it's happy for me.
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: To make all the rules, and like, sure, you make
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: all the rules. I think the place where this becomes.
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: Tricky is is when you expect someone to implement all
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: of your like an infinite number of kind of rules
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: that you that you want as opposed to kind of isolating.
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: It's almost just like a cognitive overload issue.
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: So you know, I always think about my when my
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: daughter was like three, we left my in laws with
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: her for like maybe she wasn't Yeah, she was like free.
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: We let my in laws with her for like two days,
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: and we gave them like I would do six single
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: space pages of like basically like here's what happens in
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: every fifteen minute block of the day, and like here
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: are all the things.
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: And you know, the thing is like that wasn't.
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: Very helpful because they missed some of the important things
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: like don't put the rights in the burrito, and then
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: you know, things sort of like went off the rails
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: and and I think what would have been similarly like
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: that kind of control you kind of you have to
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: figure out how to give how to give up, so
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: prioritize you need to prioritize, yeah, and also like to
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: recognize that like it's okay to do things a little
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: bit for sometimes people have like a little different things
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: the ways they do it.
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: It's going to be okay, it's okay.
• 25:04
  Speaker 5: I feel like on social media there's so much out
• 25:07
  Speaker 5: there like you should a lot of the should you
• 25:09
  Speaker 5: should do this, and a lot of language around gentle parenting.
• 25:14
  Speaker 5: I would love to hear your thoughts, your perspective on
• 25:17
  Speaker 5: what gentle parenting is. It's kind of hard to even
• 25:20
  Speaker 5: really find the definite.
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, no, it's not really well defined, right, there's not
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: like a sort of unlike some of these things with
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: parenting where you be like, oh, it's that book, you know,
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: the four s's. You know, it's like okay by having
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: ADVERG five yuts, so every manses are like that's this book.
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: The gentle parenting is sort of this like nebulous thing
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: that's kind of like sounds it sounds good because.
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: You don't like, what's the alternatives like mean parenting? That's
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: what I.
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: Adopt, you know, I think in there's a kind of
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: core idea and a lot of this gentle parenting, which
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: I would describe as like listening to your kid and
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: kind of using some of these scripts to kind of
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: try to diffuse situations. And in my view, many of
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: those scripts can be very, very useful and they have
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: worked with my kids.
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: In various ways.
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: And I think recognizing some of the almost like some
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: of the emotional height that you that you come to
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: when you are having complicated interactions with your kids and
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: thinking about diffusing that they're actually a very central point
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: of a lot of this gentle parenting, which also comes
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: up in almost every other kind of like parenting discipline
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: thing that you talk about, even you know, things with
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: timeouts forbid. You know, there's always like kind of don't
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: get mad, like you know, diffuse your own your own self.
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: Where I think this becomes more complicated is it when
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: we get into a situation where it there are you're
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: kind of trapped in something where it's very it's very
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: difficult to implement.
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: So the most probably the most.
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: Evidence based thing we know about kind of discipline in
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: these age ranges is just the consistency is important. That
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: whatever is the thing that you adopt, you need to
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: do it every time. So this comes up in like
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: you know one two three magic where it's like one
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: two three time out, like every time you have to
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: follow through on that because that's how people sort of
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: that's how your kid like understands the idea of consistency,
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: and that's how they come to that's what they.
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: Sort of come to expect.
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: I think that can work fine in gentle parenting if
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: you are able to be consistent. I think where people
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: often run into an issue is like sometimes you need
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: to leave the house with your children with their shoes on,
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: and you may not be able to like negotiate shoe
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: putting on for an infinite period of time, like at
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: some point you may just need to put on their
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: shoes and that I think that's so thinking about this
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: as kind of a part of a kind of overall
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: parenting kind of parenting discipline structure I think can be
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: can be super super useful and and at the same time,
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: like probably it is worth thinking about some of the
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: logistics in a way that is, you know, that is
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: helpful possible to implement.
• 27:56
  Speaker 6: I'm curious about your criteria for implementing policies use that
• 28:01
  Speaker 6: word before. An example would be like when kids can
• 28:05
  Speaker 6: have treats after dinner. So for example, like we're pretty
• 28:08
  Speaker 6: laid back and we generally will let them have something
• 28:11
  Speaker 6: after dinner. But every once in a while my husband
• 28:14
  Speaker 6: will pull like we don't have treats every night after dinner,
• 28:17
  Speaker 6: and it's like an arbitrary thing that comes in.
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: And my kids are pretty laid back too.
• 28:20
  Speaker 6: But I guess it's like, at what stage, like and
• 28:24
  Speaker 6: you answered it a little bit and you're just now
• 28:27
  Speaker 6: with the idea of consistency, But do you always have
• 28:31
  Speaker 6: to be consistent?
• 28:31
  Speaker 7: Like when do like when does the policy.
• 28:34
  Speaker 6: Like, like, at what point can that be useful? And
• 28:36
  Speaker 6: at what point is it just like another rule that
• 28:39
  Speaker 6: we're trying to follow.
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I think partly that's enormously dependent on
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: what your kids are like. So there are like, you know,
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: so my for my kids, if you want, if we said, like,
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: you know, they're like, in general, we have no desserts.
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: That's actually not true. In general, we always have deserts.
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: But imagine the policy was.
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: No dessert, and then one day we said we're going
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: to have dessert.
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: Then they would ask every single future day like for infinity,
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: right and so, and I think that like that is
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: annoying basically, And so I think some of this is
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: about figuring out, like how are people going to like
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: how are your kids.
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: Going to respond to sort of particular things.
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: I also think there is a and this is my
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: own from teaching, that there is a lot of value
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: to externalization.
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: In in in rules.
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: Right, So we have a set of policies about desert
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: involving ice cream that ice cream is available on Thursday
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: and Friday nights. This looks very quite arbitrary about like
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: why that you can always have at dessert but anyway,
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: whatever ice cream is only for Thursday and Friday.
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: And I'll get into.
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: Why and we it's written down, it's in the like
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: the Google doc the booth policies. But but when you say,
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: when they say like can I have ice cream it's
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: a Tuesday, you just say like, I'm sorry, I wish
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: that I could do that, But it's in the it's
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: in the Google that and that's and that's you could
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: do that your students too, Like I wish I could
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: change this, but it's in a syllabus diverted.
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: And bleak control. But I think there is this sort
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: of this piece.
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: I mean that's like joking, but I think there is
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: there is some of this or just like figuring out
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: kind of what works, and there probably are places even
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: with your own kids, where like this kind of sort
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: of having a consistent policy would help you feel better
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: about or would help them feel better about it.
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: Maybe it is not about desserts. Maybe it's about some
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: other thing where like they want to take more, they
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: want to understand more. What are the boundaries?
• 30:34
  Speaker 8: Hi, I'm thankful for this last question because this would
• 30:36
  Speaker 8: have been kind of a massive deviation otherwise. I just
• 30:40
  Speaker 8: wanted to know if you had seen any of the
• 30:43
  Speaker 8: studies coming out about cadmium and lead and dark chocolate. Yeah,
• 30:49
  Speaker 8: and how bad is that?
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: It's fine?
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: Fine, Yeah, it's fine. I mean the amounth So look,
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: it's not good to eat. So the lead is like
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: kind of the main thing here, not good to eat,
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: like lead, don't go eat lead. But the amounts in
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: those in that they are finding this is not an
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: amount of lead.
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: This is not your main source of lead. I don't
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: know that it makes you feel better or.
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: Not, but like basically the sort of the the kind
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: of problematic levels of lead we see or like basically
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: in water or in beat or in the old bathtub.
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: That's like on your back porch or in your soil,
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: not in.
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: Your chocolate bars.
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: So you know, I just like don't. I wouldn't think
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: about that anymore, honestly, Hi, just.
• 31:38
  Speaker 9: In follow up to that, how does this study like
• 31:41
  Speaker 9: that get to all of us and we're worried about it?
• 31:46
  Speaker 9: And you're an economist, you're smart, we're all smart, we're
• 31:52
  Speaker 9: all here, Like, how does that get past?
• 31:57
  Speaker 4: Right?
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: Okay? So I think there's like two sort of two
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: versions of the answer here.
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: So one that particular thing that's not really study, that's
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: just like some people do some consumer testing, yeah, panic headlines.
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: But I think that there's a deeper question, which is, like,
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: you know, I wrote this warning about this thing about
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: processed food and cancer, which has some of the same flavor,
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: like basically you know, and that's a real study, like
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: publishing an actual journal that says, you know, process food
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: is correlated with cancer, and when you kind of dive
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: into it, it's just like just garbage because like the people,
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: the sort of people eat a lot of process food
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: are different on like every single dimension you could possibly
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: imagine and more, and so just sort of say like
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: it's the fault of breakfast cereal when every other thing
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: is different. It's just doesn't you know, it doesn't make
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: any sense, And so I think there's an interesting question.
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: I pose this my class the other day, sort of like,
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: given that that paper is very poor, like, whose fault
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: is it that you are seeing it right?
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: Is it? Is it the fault of you know?
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: Is it the fault of the people who wrote the paper,
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: because you shouldn't write paper.
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: Is if your core, if you don't have any causation?
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: Is it the fault of the media, because like they
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: should be able to read table too, you know, rather
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: than just the headline.
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: And I think that the thing that was.
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: Most interesting was the student who basically ended the conversation
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: everyone sort of agree with them by being like, it's
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: our fault because like if I had was not taking
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: this class and you hadn't explained this to me, like
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: I would have set that article to all of my
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: friends and then people would read it and then like
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: what is it that you know? Like people like when
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: people read their stories, and people like to you know,
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: people like to write papers that are going to get
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: covered in things and have people read them. So I
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: guess what I'm saying is it's your fault, but uh,
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: maybe her fault. I don't know, it's one of you
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: two for sure is in fault for this, but I
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: think that's there's there's a lot going on behind.
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: That's why I mean more data literacy. Can you talk
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: about when there's no secret option? Cee?
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, sure, So so this is something that that I talked.
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: I think about a lot in the in.
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: The sort of space of hard decisions, I think we're
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: there are many circumstances in which we are faced with
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: sort of two options, and because neither of them is
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: kind of good, we never make a choice. To give
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: you an example, somebody yesterday my Instagram Q and a
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: is asked, you know, it was like about marriage, and
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: she said, like I want a second kid and my
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: husband doesn't, and like how can.
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: We both be happy?
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: And I think what's sort of useful to recognize. And
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: I think part of what she's saying is like we're
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: just we're going along and we're looking for this secret option. See,
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: we're looking for something where like we can both have
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: another kid and also not have another kid.
• 34:46
  Speaker 2: And I know it.
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: Seems unlikely, but like I'm just if we wait long enough,
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: when we kind of don't make we sort of don't
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: commit to one of these things, there's always this thing
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: out there, and like that one was really obvious because
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: of course you can see like there can't be something there.
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: But I think in in choices where it's it's maybe
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: less black and white, I think we do still you know,
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: you get to something where it's like, Okay, I could
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: do option air, option BE, and they're both they're both bad,
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: Like they're both not the thing I wanted. If somebody
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: asked me about this in the context of like I
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: want to have a bee back, but also like I
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: don't want to have an emergency C section, like I
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: want to try for this, but also like this sort
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: of and I'm waiting and waiting and waiting to sort
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: of commit to the scheduled C section because I keep
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: hoping like something will happen.
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: Well, like there is no like there's only these two options.
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: You can try this and I might add an emergency
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: C section, or you can have a schedulcy section and
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: then you won't have had a bee back.
• 35:35
  Speaker 2: And like that's it.
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: Those are the only two choices, and if you wait
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: and wait and wait, the choice will be made for you.
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: Like there's no way to not make that choice. There's
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: and there isn't any secret option see, And so I
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: think they're sort of pushing to recognize that in a
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: lot of situations and say like, Okay, when you are
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: faced with these two choices, what you have to do
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: is choose something that is not perfect.
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: You have to And once you have recognize that.
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: I think it can actually be very helpful because you
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: can then think about, well, how can I make whatever
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: option and how can I make these options as good
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: as I can? Because there's no sort of third thing,
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: So how can we kind of think about making it
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: right because either we're gonna have a kid or we're
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: not gonna have a kid, Like, how can we think
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: about what is the way we could make that make
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: one of those things work better? And I think that's
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: sort of turning off this kind of secret option see
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: is part of.
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: That good decision making.
• 36:30
  Speaker 3: What about in cases of ambivalence where you yourself are
• 36:33
  Speaker 3: like I want to have another kid and I don't
• 36:36
  Speaker 3: want to have another kid and I can't make up
• 36:37
  Speaker 3: my mind.
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah no, no, yeah, no, I mean I think that's.
• 36:48
  Speaker 2: I mean, in some sense, then.
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: You're just you're just like, uh, seeing no secret options
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: say with yourself. I mean, it's not about and a
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: lot of these things I think aren't so much about
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: about conflict, but it's just really hard. Like it's not
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: like that's just a really hard choice because you have
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: to recognize like in like you're taking a risk either way,
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: like a risk of sort of disappointment either way, and
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: like those.
• 37:13
  Speaker 2: Decisions are bad. That's it.
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: They're just hard, just like hard things.
• 37:21
  Speaker 7: Hi, So let's talk screen time. I feel like that's
• 37:25
  Speaker 7: something that keeps a lot of people up at night.
• 37:27
  Speaker 7: And I actually just saw here just.
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: Watch TV before bed? That's right?
• 37:31
  Speaker 7: Okay, yeah, right, So you had published a thing today
• 37:33
  Speaker 7: about like, you know, they continue to link screen time
• 37:35
  Speaker 7: to ADHD and all of that, and there are some
• 37:38
  Speaker 7: guiding principles out there around you know, what are you
• 37:41
  Speaker 7: having your kid watch and are you watching it together?
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: Are you talking about it?
• 37:44
  Speaker 7: But would just love to hear any of your current
• 37:46
  Speaker 7: thinking to help guide the whole screen time thing.
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah sure, Okay, So I think there's like one pretty
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: clear thing about screen time, which is you shoudn't watch
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: TV before bed. So I actually we know that like
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: kids watching screens before it like within the sort of
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: hour or so before they go to sleep actually disrupts.
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: That's kind of like the one sort of like screens
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: are not great, going back to the sleep the sleep business.
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: Other than that, I think that we have this tendency
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: to think of screens as bad and to have this
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: kind of idea in our head that like, like screens
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: are bad, so less screens is good, and like you
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: and screens are sort of like just generally I'm going
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: to think about them as bad and so then I'm
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: going to use them without really deliberately thinking about them,
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: because of course you have to sometimes use screens like
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: don't be ridiculous, but I'm just going to kind of
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: like feel.
• 38:34
  Speaker 2: Bad about it and'll that'll sort of like be how
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: I manage this.
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: The reality is, I don't think there's anything in the
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: data that would say that some amount of screen time
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: is bad. What is true is that screens are time
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: that you are not doing something else, and that to
• 38:49
  Speaker 1: the extent we have anything that suggests that there's there
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: are concerns with this. A lot of it's about displacement
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: that if you you know, if you're watching television for
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: seven hours a day, then you don't have time to
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: maybe do your homework or go to school, or go
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: outside or sleep or something else. And so that for
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: me really frames a lot of them, the screen time
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: and the way time amound the family. Firm is the
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: idea of separating out the kind of content questions which
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: are often so top of mine, from the staring at
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: the wall question.
• 39:17
  Speaker 2: Like basically just.
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: Saying, like screen time, think of screen time as your
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: kid is just like they're like, I'm going to go
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: to my room, I'm.
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: Gonna stare at the ball.
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: I'm just gonna sit there and stare at the wall
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: and like and if your kid told you, like for
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: half an hour before dinner, well you enjoy a glass
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: of wine and similar like the tomato sauce and make
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: some pasta, I'm going to say in my room.
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: And stare at the wall. You'd be like, Wow, my
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: kid's the most amazing meditator. And you know, like you
• 39:38
  Speaker 2: would be so happy about that.
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: And in some sense, like that's because like the alternative
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: in that time is not that they're doing something enriching,
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: It's that they're like whining or bothering like something about that.
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: And so that may be a reasonable time for screens.
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: And so thinking about where in your life do the
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: screens fit that they are like taking away from that,
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: they're that they're productive, that they are a good use
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: of time, and recognizing like people like to sit and
• 40:03
  Speaker 1: watch TV and relax and like that's okay, that's like part.
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: Of modern life.
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: You do that, and people probably field in that forever,
• 40:10
  Speaker 1: not on screens, but they're like people like to relax.
• 40:12
  Speaker 2: It's okay, it's okay to relax sometimes.
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: But if we get into a situation where you kid said, look,
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: i'm gonna sit in my room for seven hours a day,
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: I'm going to stare at the wall, you would be like,
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: you know what, no meditation, that's too much. You're not
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: a monk, Like, let's do something outside. And similarly, you
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: sort of think about screens like that. So I think
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: for me, that's really helpful and it's sort of informed
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: a lot of how I think about navigating screens, which
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: is like like you can have unlimited screens on the
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: airplane because like that's it. You know, it's the airplane
• 40:38
  Speaker 1: and you know, but during this sort of time in
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: our in our house, we have some times that screens
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: are used in sometimes that they're that there are off limits.
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: But the sort of good bad is not. I think
• 40:49
  Speaker 2: super helpful here last one.
• 40:55
  Speaker 10: So you talked a lot about kind of you and
• 40:58
  Speaker 10: a partner making some decisions about at your family, But
• 41:01
  Speaker 10: can you talk about when you incorporate your children into
• 41:04
  Speaker 10: that process. I think our family has a very similar
• 41:07
  Speaker 10: Our goal is to raise independent, self sufficient adults, and
• 41:12
  Speaker 10: so how does that fit into some of these parenting
• 41:15
  Speaker 10: decisions that we think about making.
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: Oh, it's such a good question, and so I think
• 41:19
  Speaker 1: the answer is like as early as possible.
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: In curated ways. So I think you're you know, your
• 41:24
  Speaker 2: kids are like.
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: Shepherds of their own life in some way, and so
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: you sort of want to have them like as much
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: as possible, I think, have some say, But on the
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: other hand, they have crazy ideas, and so there's a
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: sort of like figuring.
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: Out, like how can I how can.
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: I start scaffolding sort of smaller decisions and bringing them
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: into smaller decisions.
• 41:49
  Speaker 2: And then kind of and.
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: Then sort of letting them make more decisions later. And
• 41:55
  Speaker 1: the hardest thing about that is letting them make choices
• 41:58
  Speaker 1: that you think are wrong, like not wrong in it
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: kind of like this is going to ruin your life,
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: but like actually you will not enjoy signing up for
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: the musical because you don't like to be out of
• 42:10
  Speaker 1: the house for this many Like you're not going to
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: like staying at school until seven o'clock at night. And
• 42:14
  Speaker 1: you can tell me, like you're gonna love it, and
• 42:16
  Speaker 1: we should talk about like what it's going to look like,
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: and I'm going to let you make that mistake and
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: then when the next.
• 42:20
  Speaker 2: Musical comes, I'm not gonna sign up for it.
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: And I think, but I think that sort of like
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: working it in and figuring out where where can I
• 42:29
  Speaker 1: give this particular kid the leeway to kind of help
• 42:32
  Speaker 1: to sort of structure their time and make their choices,
• 42:34
  Speaker 1: and where do I need to keep the scaffolding in.
• 42:37
  Speaker 1: I think that's that's the challenge. But but it's very
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: that piece.
• 42:41
  Speaker 2: Is very doable. I think one tool that.
• 42:43
  Speaker 1: We use a lot is just like sort of at times,
• 42:47
  Speaker 1: you know, the start of a semester, like some sort
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: of natural break in the kind of kid's life schedule,
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: to sort of sit down with them and think about, like,
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: you know, what is the next six months look like?
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: And that's also an opportunity to like think about what
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: a decision making are they like.
• 43:01
  Speaker 2: Able to do.
• 43:03
  Speaker 1: I will say, like we try a lot to give them,
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: like to give them autonomy, like make them make their
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: own breakfast. And that's actually the thing as a parent
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: I find the hardest to follow thru on.
• 43:12
  Speaker 2: So like my kids are supposed to make their own.
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: Breakfast, and I like the other day, like last week
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: I made my son at cheese onmelet every day because
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: I had like mistakenly made him.
• 43:21
  Speaker 2: A cheese am once and then every day he was like,
• 43:23
  Speaker 2: I want to chee Onmelin. I wanted she's online. I
• 43:25
  Speaker 2: wanted cheese onmelet. And so it's you know, it's a
• 43:29
  Speaker 2: it's a work. It's like it's something I think is
• 43:31
  Speaker 2: very hard to follow through on.
• 43:33
  Speaker 3: What it can work.
• 43:37
  Speaker 2: Okay, So that's it for the Q and a thank
• 43:39
  Speaker 2: you very much. This was really great. Thanks for listening.
• 43:47
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• 43:49
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• 43:52
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• 43:54
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• 43:55
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• 44:00
  Speaker 2: Talk to you soon,