Latest / Vox Novus with Victor Fuhrman / Frank Forencich – Honor the Animal

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Frank Forencich – Honor the Animal · Vox Novus with Victor Fuhrman

0:06
Speaker 1: Vox Novus, the New Voice, Vox Novus, the new Dimension.
0:15
Speaker 1: Vox Novus thought and movement leaders who will share from
0:19
Speaker 1: their experience and offer tools to help us navigate our
0:23
Speaker 1: rapidly changing world. My name is Victor Furman. Welcome to
0:29
Speaker 1: Vox Novus, the New Voice. The human animal is in
0:43
Speaker 1: big trouble. An ecological and social storm is upon us,
0:48
Speaker 1: and the stress is growing more intense with each passing day.
0:53
Speaker 1: To succeed, there must be a creation of new culture,
0:57
Speaker 1: ideas and lifeways. We must be radically, ferociously, relentlessly creative.
1:05
Speaker 1: My guest this week on Vox novis Frank Farensich, says
1:09
Speaker 1: we must honor the Animal. Frank is a passionate advocate
1:14
Speaker 1: for the human animal and a functional future. He earned
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Speaker 1: his BA at Stanford University in human biology and has
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Speaker 1: more than thirty years of teaching experience in martial arts
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Speaker 1: and health education. A former columnist for Paleo Magazine, Frank
1:31
Speaker 1: is the author of numerous books about health and the
1:34
Speaker 1: human predicament. His website is Humananimal dot earth, and he
1:40
Speaker 1: joins me this week to share his path and latest book,
1:44
Speaker 1: Honor the Animal, Experiential Design for Teachers coaches, trainers, therapists,
1:51
Speaker 1: parents and health professionals. Please join me in welcoming to
1:56
Speaker 1: Vox Novus Frank Forensics. Welcome, Frank glad to be here.
2:01
Speaker 1: Please share with us your early path and challenges and
2:05
Speaker 1: how it led to your background in martial arts and
2:08
Speaker 1: human design.
2:10
Speaker 2: Well, my origin story, I suppose starts as a very
2:15
Speaker 2: young person where I had a lot of physical troubles.
2:18
Speaker 2: I was very sick, had a lot of allergies, couldn't
2:22
Speaker 2: really keep up with my peers on the athletic field
2:24
Speaker 2: at all, and it wasn't looking good for me. But
2:30
Speaker 2: my parents got me involved in swimming and that made
2:33
Speaker 2: a huge difference over the course of a few years,
2:36
Speaker 2: and I went from being really behind the curve physically
2:40
Speaker 2: to catching up, and that led me to get really
2:45
Speaker 2: interested in physical movement and the physical arts. I eventually
2:50
Speaker 2: became involved with martial arts and rock climbing and a
2:54
Speaker 2: whole host of studies having to do with the human body.
2:58
Speaker 2: So that was my transformation, you might say.
3:01
Speaker 1: For listeners who may have some physical issues. I was
3:05
Speaker 1: told by a doctor I was having problems with one
3:07
Speaker 1: of my knees and the doctor told me get into
3:11
Speaker 1: into a swimming pool and start swimming. How important is swimming?
3:15
Speaker 3: Oh?
3:15
Speaker 2: For me, it was pivotal. It was fantastic because it
3:20
Speaker 2: increased my vitality and it got me over a lot
3:24
Speaker 2: of these sort of vague afflictions that I had. And
3:29
Speaker 2: it only took a few years so consistently get in
3:32
Speaker 2: the water and eventually joined the water polo team in
3:35
Speaker 2: high school, and that made a big difference in the
3:39
Speaker 2: long term trajectory of my life.
3:43
Speaker 1: Tell us about your trips to Africa and what you
3:45
Speaker 1: were searching for right.
3:47
Speaker 2: Well, when I was in college, I was in the
3:49
Speaker 2: program in human biology, and I had a lot of
3:52
Speaker 2: professors who were very interested in human evolution and the
3:56
Speaker 2: big history of the human animal. And they all said
3:59
Speaker 2: pretty much the same, if you really want to understand
4:02
Speaker 2: how the human body works, you need to go to
4:04
Speaker 2: Africa and understand the environment that we grew up in.
4:09
Speaker 2: And I took them seriously. I said, Okay, I'll do that,
4:12
Speaker 2: and I went to Africa, and I was fortunate I
4:15
Speaker 2: was able to go on safari to see the natural world.
4:19
Speaker 2: But I was also able to go out with some
4:22
Speaker 2: Plahari bushman, the hunters and gatherers of Tanzania, and that
4:28
Speaker 2: was really exciting for me. I learned a lot.
4:30
Speaker 1: What were some of the things that you learned from them?
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Speaker 2: Well, mostly it was the thought experiment of what would
4:38
Speaker 2: it be like to live in an ancestral environment, that
4:42
Speaker 2: that was normal for human beings for most of our
4:45
Speaker 2: time on Earth, and how that lifestyle would have affected
4:50
Speaker 2: our bodies, being outdoors twenty four hours a day, being
4:54
Speaker 2: in small tribal bands, paying a lot of attention to habitat,
4:58
Speaker 2: having a lot of agility, which is the ability to
5:01
Speaker 2: walk long distances without fences or roads or interruptions, and
5:07
Speaker 2: that contact with the natural world would have been very
5:11
Speaker 2: awe inspiring and very good for the human body and
5:14
Speaker 2: for human health.
5:16
Speaker 1: Before we discuss your new book, Honor the Animal, please
5:19
Speaker 1: share with us about your twenty twenty one book, Beware
5:23
Speaker 1: False Tigers, Strategies and Antidotes for an Age of Stress.
5:27
Speaker 1: What inspired that book and what do you share with
5:30
Speaker 1: readers right?
5:32
Speaker 2: Well, stress is such a big topic in the health
5:34
Speaker 2: and fitness world, but it's even bigger than that. And
5:39
Speaker 2: I know that it's such a hot topic because the
5:45
Speaker 2: autonomic nervous system, which drives a stress response, is ancient
5:49
Speaker 2: and it's a primal part of the human body and
5:53
Speaker 2: it touches every sell, every organ, every tissue in the body.
5:57
Speaker 2: So if we can use that system, well, our bodies
6:01
Speaker 2: will flourish. But if we have trouble with that system,
6:04
Speaker 2: then there's going to be lots of downstream and consequences,
6:07
Speaker 2: not just for our health, but for our behavior and
6:10
Speaker 2: our experience in the world. So that's what led me
6:13
Speaker 2: to write the book. And I continue to be really
6:15
Speaker 2: fascinated by stress and the stress responses.
6:18
Speaker 1: And what did you share with readers about stress in
6:20
Speaker 1: that book.
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Speaker 2: The primary duality that people need to understand, and I
6:24
Speaker 2: think a lot of people are coming around to this,
6:26
Speaker 2: is understanding the difference between the sympathetic branch and the
6:30
Speaker 2: parasympathetic branch of the autonomic nervous system. And we've all
6:34
Speaker 2: heard about the fight flight response, So that is the
6:38
Speaker 2: response of the body for emergency physical action and typically movement,
6:45
Speaker 2: and this is where we're running away from predators and
6:47
Speaker 2: that kind of thing. And that's a very important piece
6:50
Speaker 2: of the puzzle and it's very valuable in terms of
6:56
Speaker 2: our survival and our performance. But the other side of
6:59
Speaker 2: the system, the parasympathetic branch is just as important, and
7:03
Speaker 2: that's the rest and digest response, or what in massage
7:08
Speaker 2: school we called it the feed and breed response, And
7:11
Speaker 2: that's the healing response that helps us put tissues and
7:14
Speaker 2: organs back together when they've been overworked. So the key
7:19
Speaker 2: in all of this is to use it wisely, to
7:23
Speaker 2: have a stress response that is appropriate and acute at
7:27
Speaker 2: the right time, and then to return back to the
7:30
Speaker 2: rest and digest response as soon as possible, and to
7:34
Speaker 2: hang out there to spend most of our time in
7:36
Speaker 2: rest and.
7:37
Speaker 1: Digest and not carry that stress with them right.
7:41
Speaker 2: Right, So it's always the distinction between acute and chronic.
7:45
Speaker 2: Acute is good, chronic is bad.
7:48
Speaker 4: Yeah.
7:49
Speaker 1: What inspired your new book, Honor the Animal and who
7:52
Speaker 1: is it written for?
7:54
Speaker 3: Right?
7:54
Speaker 2: Well, I've been very fortunate in that I've been able
7:59
Speaker 2: to study with all of different teachers in the world
8:01
Speaker 2: of martial arts and massage therapy and athletic training, and
8:06
Speaker 2: I started producing some workshops on my own and I
8:10
Speaker 2: was able to start from scratch, and that was an
8:13
Speaker 2: incredibly valuable experience because I didn't have to follow anybody
8:17
Speaker 2: else's template. I could just make things up on the fly.
8:21
Speaker 2: And I said what is the ideal experience, say, in
8:25
Speaker 2: a three day workship, what do I want people to
8:27
Speaker 2: take away from it? And that's what the book is
8:31
Speaker 2: all about, is how to design this kind of experience.
8:34
Speaker 2: And it's for anybody who works with the human animals,
8:37
Speaker 2: So it could be teachers, parents, coaches, therapists, trainers, anybody
8:42
Speaker 2: who who might want to do one of these experiences
8:46
Speaker 2: with their people. It's a starting from scratch approach. You
8:50
Speaker 2: might even call it a veterinary approach for working with
8:53
Speaker 2: people or the human animal.
8:56
Speaker 1: Where do we stand? What is the nature of the
8:59
Speaker 1: modern human predicament?
9:01
Speaker 3: Oh?
9:03
Speaker 2: Well, the human animal is in really big trouble right now,
9:06
Speaker 2: and for a lot of reasons, clearly, But the two
9:11
Speaker 2: biggest ones are tied to our biology. The first one
9:16
Speaker 2: is what they call mismatch, and that is simply the
9:20
Speaker 2: fact that our bodies are ancient. Our bodies have this
9:23
Speaker 2: aboriginal wiring you might say, these aboriginal inclinations, and we're
9:29
Speaker 2: trying to use that kind of wiring in the modern world,
9:32
Speaker 2: which which is radically different from the world that we're
9:36
Speaker 2: used to. So that's a big challenge and a big
9:39
Speaker 2: stressor for everyone. And then the other big challenge, of course,
9:43
Speaker 2: is are ecological predicament and the fact that all of
9:46
Speaker 2: our life support systems now are under continuous threat and
9:53
Speaker 2: may actually be past the tipping points of a breakdown.
9:58
Speaker 2: So the thing, the processes, the life systems that support
10:02
Speaker 2: our bodies are under threat, and in turn, our bodies
10:06
Speaker 2: are suffering.
10:07
Speaker 1: And what are some of the things that we can
10:09
Speaker 1: do about disconnecting from that aboriginal build in our body, Well,
10:15
Speaker 1: we really can't.
10:16
Speaker 2: I think that we are going to be aboriginal for
10:21
Speaker 2: a very long time. And our inclinations and our preferences,
10:27
Speaker 2: our behaviors have been shaped by evolution over the course
10:30
Speaker 2: of hundreds of thousands of years, and the modern world
10:34
Speaker 2: has come upon us in the matter of only a
10:37
Speaker 2: few hundred years. So a lot of people have described
10:42
Speaker 2: us as cavemen with cell phones, which is kind of
10:45
Speaker 2: a cartoon, but I think that's kind of accurate. And
10:49
Speaker 2: our social inclinations, our health and lifestyle inclinations have been
10:53
Speaker 2: shaped by events that took place a very long time ago.
10:58
Speaker 2: So we have to work with that, and we have
11:02
Speaker 2: to be aware of it.
11:03
Speaker 1: And where does artificial intelligence come to play in this?
11:07
Speaker 2: Oh AI's that's really kind of a pet peeve for
11:12
Speaker 2: me now, because it's yet another technology that we don't
11:16
Speaker 2: really understand that's coming down the pipe here with incredible
11:20
Speaker 2: speed and we haven't even had the conversation yet about
11:25
Speaker 2: how that might play in. And my fear is that,
11:31
Speaker 2: like many technologies, it's going to lead to atrophy in
11:35
Speaker 2: some basic human capability. So it's just as if you
11:40
Speaker 2: use a car all the time to drive and to
11:43
Speaker 2: go places and you never use your legs to walk,
11:46
Speaker 2: your legs will begin to atrophy and you'll become weaker.
11:48
Speaker 2: And the same thing will be I'm sure true with
11:51
Speaker 2: AI that if we rely on AI to explore the
11:56
Speaker 2: world and to take over our creative capabilities and our judgment,
12:01
Speaker 2: then those to those capabilities will also begin to atrophy.
12:06
Speaker 2: And that does not bode well at all for our future.
12:10
Speaker 1: And it seems that the companies that are making the
12:12
Speaker 1: AI elements are pushing them for profit rather than taking
12:17
Speaker 1: the societal dangers into question.
12:20
Speaker 2: Oh absolutely, I mean this is this is one hundred
12:22
Speaker 2: percent apitalist enterprise. And it's not that people are making
12:27
Speaker 2: the decisions here. Capital is making the decisions. Money and
12:30
Speaker 2: profit are making the decisions, and so these these technologies
12:35
Speaker 2: are basically being offered to us without reflection, and that
12:40
Speaker 2: is that's just not a good way to introduce any
12:43
Speaker 2: novelty or technology to people.
12:46
Speaker 1: Absolutely, you've shared that humanity looks upon the animal kingdom
12:51
Speaker 1: and nature as others. Why is this both wrong and dangerous?
12:57
Speaker 2: Right? This is what some people call the myth of
13:00
Speaker 2: human supremacy, and this belief that we are like the
13:04
Speaker 2: apex of creation, we are the alpha animal, We're the
13:07
Speaker 2: best animal that's ever lived, and that attitude, that philosophy
13:13
Speaker 2: is really common in the modern Western world, but it's
13:17
Speaker 2: not a human universal So in other words, a lot
13:19
Speaker 2: of cultures, a lot of people on the planet have
13:24
Speaker 2: held a different view, a more participatory view. But it
13:28
Speaker 2: seems over the last couple hundred years we've shifted now
13:31
Speaker 2: to this belief in human supremacy, this belief in human exceptionalism,
13:38
Speaker 2: and that, at least from my point of view, is
13:40
Speaker 2: a really dangerous attitude to hold, because we're just another
13:46
Speaker 2: animal and we have some very impressive capabilities, but so
13:51
Speaker 2: do a lot of other animals, and if we want
13:54
Speaker 2: to have a functional future, I think we need to
13:56
Speaker 2: take a more participatory approach to start seeing ourselves in participation,
14:05
Speaker 2: in harmony with the natural world, and a lot of
14:08
Speaker 2: conservationists have made this point, but it bears repeating because
14:13
Speaker 2: to hold a arrogant approach to nature is bound belief
14:20
Speaker 2: to trouble.
14:21
Speaker 1: As we're saying, one hundred years ago, this would not
14:24
Speaker 1: have been even a question. But where can we intervene
14:28
Speaker 1: as a society, I guess, especially with children in schools,
14:32
Speaker 1: and start to bring out the understanding of our relationship
14:36
Speaker 1: with nature and with the wild kingdom?
14:39
Speaker 2: Right, Well, it's got to be does my martial art
14:42
Speaker 2: teachers always put it, They said, it's always about time
14:45
Speaker 2: on the mat. In other words, we have to be
14:47
Speaker 2: spending more time in contact with natural processes, more time outdoors.
14:54
Speaker 2: And I think we're going to have to give up
14:56
Speaker 2: some of our reliance on technology. I think that the
15:00
Speaker 2: proliferation of smartphones, especially amongst young people, is a real problem,
15:06
Speaker 2: and we're going to have to give up on some
15:08
Speaker 2: of this headlong rush into a technological future. We have
15:12
Speaker 2: to spend more time in nature. It's that simple.
15:15
Speaker 1: Are we allowing our environment to be abused to the
15:18
Speaker 1: extent that it actually could lead to extinction?
15:22
Speaker 2: I think possibly that's the case, especially the threat of
15:27
Speaker 2: climate chaos. We're on track now to be a three
15:33
Speaker 2: degrees above pre industrial temperatures by twenty fifty, and so
15:39
Speaker 2: that is within one generation. You know, people who are
15:43
Speaker 2: born today will see some horrific climate consequences and whether
15:50
Speaker 2: or not that leads to extinction and remains to be seen.
15:52
Speaker 2: I think the effects will be patchy. There will be
15:54
Speaker 2: some bioregions that are going to go down to extreme weather,
15:59
Speaker 2: and I think they're going to be major food shortages
16:03
Speaker 2: around the world, and there's going to be a lot
16:06
Speaker 2: of chaos and a lot of stress. The consequences here
16:09
Speaker 2: that we're looking at are really severe and we're not
16:12
Speaker 2: really taking it seriously as a people. So maybe extension, yes,
16:16
Speaker 2: but at the very least a lot of turmoil.
16:21
Speaker 1: And again, what could be introduced into the educational process
16:24
Speaker 1: to change this and to intervene.
16:28
Speaker 2: Well, young people I think need to be told the
16:31
Speaker 2: truth above all, and I think as parents we tend
16:35
Speaker 2: to sugarcoat a lot of things, and we want we
16:37
Speaker 2: don't want to frighten young people. We want them to
16:40
Speaker 2: have a sense of hope, and that's all legit. However,
16:44
Speaker 2: it's telling the truth is fundamental here, and we're having
16:48
Speaker 2: trouble with that. We're having trouble telling people the truth
16:52
Speaker 2: of what humans are doing to the biosphere now, and
16:57
Speaker 2: we really can't shy away from that. We need to
17:00
Speaker 2: tell the truth first of all, to one another and
17:04
Speaker 2: to the adult community, and then as best we can
17:08
Speaker 2: tell that truth to young people and then give them
17:11
Speaker 2: the tools, their activist tools that they can carry forward.
17:15
Speaker 2: And we're really failing to do that right now.
17:19
Speaker 1: How do we generate how do we engender advocacy?
17:23
Speaker 2: I think we need to teach people about the nature
17:25
Speaker 2: of power, and the way power tends to consolidate, the
17:29
Speaker 2: way wealth tends to consolidate, the extreme inequality of the
17:34
Speaker 2: modern world, what the capitalist system is doing to people
17:38
Speaker 2: around the world. Some people now are calling capitalism an
17:41
Speaker 2: injustice machine, which I think is a fair description of
17:47
Speaker 2: what it is. So young people need to have the tools,
17:51
Speaker 2: especially the language tools they need to understand how politics
17:56
Speaker 2: and power actually work, how especially the language of metaphor
18:01
Speaker 2: to talk about some of these problems, and to be
18:04
Speaker 2: good public speakers when they address the community at large.
18:09
Speaker 2: So these are tools that we have, we just need
18:13
Speaker 2: to make them available.
18:14
Speaker 1: Absolutely, are we a Planet of the Apes in reverse.
18:20
Speaker 2: Well, yes, I have no problem with this, with this
18:23
Speaker 2: idea of humans as animals and humans as apes, humans
18:27
Speaker 2: as primates, humans as mammals. Our wiring is so much
18:32
Speaker 2: the same. And chimpanzees, for example, I've been to Africa
18:36
Speaker 2: and I've been to Gombie where Jane Goodall did our work.
18:40
Speaker 2: I've been out with the chimpanzees, and ninety eight percent
18:44
Speaker 2: of their genetic material is the same as ours. So
18:49
Speaker 2: I don't think it makes a whole lot of sense
18:51
Speaker 2: to say that they're somehow different from us. Obviously they're
18:55
Speaker 2: different in subtle ways, but we're mostly the same. And
19:02
Speaker 2: so yes, primates, mammals, vertebrates were all part of the
19:06
Speaker 2: same family.
19:07
Speaker 1: And what was the lesson from the movie The Planet
19:09
Speaker 1: of the Apes? So what do we see in those movies,
19:11
Speaker 1: that series of movies about about how they treated humanity.
19:17
Speaker 2: You know, it's been a long time since I saw
19:20
Speaker 2: that movie, and I can't really comment on it. But
19:24
Speaker 2: my favorite example here comes from the movie Avatar and
19:31
Speaker 2: Terminator and some of these works by James Cameron. We
19:35
Speaker 2: talked a lot about our encounter with technology and our
19:38
Speaker 2: encounter with native people, and that I think is super
19:43
Speaker 2: relevant right now, and I think we really need to
19:45
Speaker 2: need to revisit these movies and see the message that
19:49
Speaker 2: was there.
19:50
Speaker 1: Absolutely, we have the warning. Now we have to pay
19:52
Speaker 1: attention to the warning. My guest is Frank Farensich. His
19:57
Speaker 1: book is called Honor the Animal, Feriential Design for teachers, coaches, trainers, therapists,
20:03
Speaker 1: parents and health professionals. Frank, please share with our listeners
20:07
Speaker 1: where they can get your books and find out more
20:09
Speaker 1: about you and your work.
20:11
Speaker 2: Well, the book is available on all the usual outlets,
20:16
Speaker 2: but you can go to my website Humananimal dot earth
20:19
Speaker 2: and you'll find everything there and some of my other
20:23
Speaker 2: books and some of my other videos and that kind
20:25
Speaker 2: of thing. So it's all easy to find.
20:27
Speaker 1: And what else do you offer there?
20:29
Speaker 2: I also have a YouTube channel with some nature based
20:34
Speaker 2: monologues that I do in commentary that I do in
20:36
Speaker 2: the outdoor world, so that might be interesting to people
20:39
Speaker 2: as well.
20:40
Speaker 1: And we'll be back with more Frank and on the
20:42
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20:47
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24:00
Speaker 1: Back on Vox Novus. My guest this week Frank Parensis,
24:04
Speaker 1: author of the book Honor the Animal Experiential Design for teachers, coaches, trainers, therapists, parents,
24:12
Speaker 1: and health professionals. Frank, not many people talk about experiential design.
24:18
Speaker 1: What is it and why is it important?
24:20
Speaker 2: Oh? Good? I love this question because what happens when
24:25
Speaker 2: we go through standard curriculums. Let's say you want to
24:28
Speaker 2: be a teacher or a trainer or coach. We go
24:31
Speaker 2: to school and we receive you might say, template, and
24:36
Speaker 2: the template tells us how to conduct our educations that
24:40
Speaker 2: we do with our clients. Our patients are our students,
24:45
Speaker 2: and then we tend to stick with us. And what
24:49
Speaker 2: I think we need to do in light of modern
24:52
Speaker 2: knowledge about the human animal is we need to question
24:56
Speaker 2: all of that and we need to start from scratch.
24:58
Speaker 2: And that's what I talk about the veterinary model and say, Okay,
25:02
Speaker 2: we've got these animals, with these human animals, and they
25:06
Speaker 2: under they're under a certain amount of distress right now.
25:11
Speaker 2: So starting from scratch with experiential design, what would we
25:16
Speaker 2: do with people? If you just had a group of
25:18
Speaker 2: people and unlimited resources, what would you do? And that's
25:22
Speaker 2: a question that is that we don't ask often enough,
25:28
Speaker 2: and I think it's a good place to start.
25:31
Speaker 1: And what would you say we'd start with.
25:34
Speaker 2: Well, we've got to start with the human body and
25:38
Speaker 2: the history of the human body, and what are our
25:42
Speaker 2: basic needs? You know, obviously we need to be in
25:46
Speaker 2: contact with nature to some degree, we need to be
25:50
Speaker 2: in contact with community, and we need to have a
25:53
Speaker 2: sense of meaning and purpose. These are like our three
25:56
Speaker 2: circles of life support that surround us. And that's a
26:01
Speaker 2: good starting place. Habitat, tribe and community, and then met
26:05
Speaker 2: a narrative, sense of meaning and a purpose. If we
26:08
Speaker 2: start there, we won't go too far wrong. And I
26:13
Speaker 2: enjoy the academic disciplines all of these. The traditional schooling
26:17
Speaker 2: is fine in and of itself, but we need to
26:19
Speaker 2: get underneath that something more primal.
26:22
Speaker 1: You say that experience is the language of the body.
26:27
Speaker 1: What does that mean?
26:29
Speaker 2: I love this phrase because when you study neuroscience, you
26:33
Speaker 2: walk away with a couple of insights. And whether it's
26:39
Speaker 2: changes to synapses or nerve cells, the wrappings around nerve
26:43
Speaker 2: cells called myelin, or whether it's changes to the cortex
26:47
Speaker 2: of the brain, all of these things are what they
26:49
Speaker 2: call use dependent. In other words, those changes only take
26:54
Speaker 2: place in response to use, in other words, experience. So
27:00
Speaker 2: you use the brain, you use synapses and neurons in
27:04
Speaker 2: a particular way, and they will respond with transformation. They
27:09
Speaker 2: won't respond to anything else. The experience is the driver.
27:14
Speaker 2: Repetition is the driver of nervous system transformation. So it's
27:20
Speaker 2: correct to say that experience is the language of the body.
27:23
Speaker 2: And I happen to love language, and a lot of
27:27
Speaker 2: us use language in trying to transform one another, and
27:30
Speaker 2: language can have an effect. But really, when you get
27:33
Speaker 2: right down to it. It's the experience that the whole
27:36
Speaker 2: human animal has that changes the body, that changes the
27:40
Speaker 2: nervous system.
27:42
Speaker 1: So I'm working in my kitchen and I don't have
27:45
Speaker 1: a glove on my hand, and I reach out to
27:48
Speaker 1: grab a pot and I don't take into consideration that
27:52
Speaker 1: there's going to be heat coming from that pot, and
27:54
Speaker 1: my hand starts to burn.
27:56
Speaker 2: Is that experience, Oh absolutely, and it would be. It's
28:00
Speaker 2: poignant in and of itself. But if it happens several times,
28:04
Speaker 2: if you have repetitions of that, that will drive that
28:07
Speaker 2: learning home deeply into your nervous system, and you will
28:12
Speaker 2: have synaptic changes and changes to neurons and changes to
28:16
Speaker 2: the cortex of your brain, all driven by that experience,
28:19
Speaker 2: all driven by that use. So repetition is everything, and
28:23
Speaker 2: athletic coaches know this, and we need to listen to
28:27
Speaker 2: some of their teaching on this.
28:29
Speaker 1: So in essence, this is a form of education that
28:33
Speaker 1: comes really through the physical phenomenon, not through the intellectual phenomenon, right, And.
28:40
Speaker 2: That's something that we need to maybe rethink, especially at
28:45
Speaker 2: the level of academic education and the university, because this
28:52
Speaker 2: model that came to us in the late middle ages
28:55
Speaker 2: of the university, where students sit and take notes and
28:58
Speaker 2: listen to lectures and try and drive knowledge into the
29:02
Speaker 2: brain through academic learning. That's one model, but it's it's
29:08
Speaker 2: not the only model. And if you look at it
29:12
Speaker 2: in terms of human history, deep human history, the primal
29:18
Speaker 2: body based knowledge has always been the core of this.
29:23
Speaker 1: How has neglect led to the level of stress that
29:27
Speaker 1: many experience today.
29:29
Speaker 2: Neglect as in neglect of the body, neglect in terms
29:35
Speaker 2: of sedentary living, neglect in terms of the domestication of
29:41
Speaker 2: modern lifestyle. That's how a tremendous effect on the human body,
29:46
Speaker 2: especially an atrophy of our muscular system, but also an
29:50
Speaker 2: atrophy of our sensory systems, atrophy in our ability to
29:56
Speaker 2: pay attention to the world. All of these things seem
29:59
Speaker 2: to be a decline line. And you might even say
30:02
Speaker 2: the vitality of the human animal itself seems to have
30:06
Speaker 2: degraded over the last few decades. Even so, that's part
30:11
Speaker 2: of our trouble.
30:12
Speaker 1: And also with the advent of COVID and the isolation
30:17
Speaker 1: of people, especially kids not going to a physical school
30:21
Speaker 1: but adjoining school through means of computers and such. What
30:25
Speaker 1: do you think that did.
30:27
Speaker 2: That's been that's been a real big hit to all
30:31
Speaker 2: of us. And obviously the technology enables people like us
30:36
Speaker 2: to have a conversation at long distance, and that's a
30:40
Speaker 2: welcome thing, but too much screen time. This is absolutely
30:45
Speaker 2: clear that that cannot substitute for face to face interactions
30:51
Speaker 2: with other people. I mean, this is deep social wiring
30:56
Speaker 2: in the human animal. Our brains are literally social or
31:00
Speaker 2: and we absolutely need that FaceTime. That's like the gold
31:04
Speaker 2: standard for human social interactions. And technology is really getting
31:09
Speaker 2: in the way of that. The smartphone, especially the earbuds
31:13
Speaker 2: and the headphones, all of this is getting in the
31:16
Speaker 2: way of our ability to know one another.
31:21
Speaker 1: And one of the things that's been wired in my head,
31:24
Speaker 1: especially the last few years, is I have to be
31:27
Speaker 1: overly cautious when coming to an intersection that somebody. Most
31:32
Speaker 1: of the time, teens are not crossing the street looking
31:34
Speaker 1: at their phones and not looking at oncoming traffic.
31:37
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, it's everywhere now, and I think our ancestors
31:42
Speaker 2: would be appalled at our inability to pay attention to
31:45
Speaker 2: the world. I mean, this is not just a trivial
31:48
Speaker 2: side effect of technology. This is going deeper, and I
31:52
Speaker 2: really worry about young people and their ability, and even
31:56
Speaker 2: older people now and the ability to pay attention and
32:01
Speaker 2: in a consistent and sustained way. And if that goes away,
32:04
Speaker 2: then we are at the mercy for all kinds of
32:09
Speaker 2: forces in society that would tend to capture our.
32:12
Speaker 1: Attention absolutely, and and also for me personally. I found
32:17
Speaker 1: that those who spend a lot of time on their
32:19
Speaker 1: phones are losing their communication skills right right.
32:25
Speaker 2: And the thing that people forget is communication is not
32:29
Speaker 2: just words. The body is always involved and has been
32:33
Speaker 2: throughout history. So the body contributes in terms of our posture,
32:38
Speaker 2: our facial expressions, are the pitch and volume of our voice,
32:44
Speaker 2: all of these things that communication is fundamentally physical, and
32:48
Speaker 2: the body knows this body language.
32:51
Speaker 1: Yep, you're looking for common ground among teachers, therapists, coaches, trainers, parents,
32:59
Speaker 1: and health profess How would you describe this overlap? Right?
33:04
Speaker 2: This is a what I call a pigeonhole problem, because
33:07
Speaker 2: all of these professions are working with the human animal,
33:10
Speaker 2: and we all desire essentially the same thing for the
33:13
Speaker 2: human animal. We all want our people to be healthier
33:17
Speaker 2: and more functional in the world, and yet we're inhibited
33:21
Speaker 2: by these pigeonholes that tell us, Okay, you're only going
33:24
Speaker 2: to work with a certain aspect of the human animal.
33:28
Speaker 2: You might be working with the human mind, you might
33:30
Speaker 2: be working with the human body or part of the
33:32
Speaker 2: human body. And this division of attention ends up being
33:39
Speaker 2: really problematic. And of course, the biggest example of this
33:43
Speaker 2: is the mind body split of Renee Descartes. And he
33:46
Speaker 2: gave us this thing several hundred years ago, and he
33:50
Speaker 2: believed that the mind and the body are two separate entities,
33:54
Speaker 2: and modern neurosize tells us, no, that's not the case.
33:57
Speaker 2: The mind and body are always in dialogue with one another.
34:01
Speaker 2: And yet we have these pigeonholes that oftentimes force us
34:07
Speaker 2: to ignore the totality of the human organism. And that's
34:12
Speaker 2: a structure that gets in our way.
34:15
Speaker 1: You touched upon this before you advocate for a veterinary
34:19
Speaker 1: approach to the human animal. Please elaborate.
34:23
Speaker 2: Well, I just try and get away from the pigeon holes,
34:28
Speaker 2: as you might say. And what if we had a
34:31
Speaker 2: veterinarian come to our planet from Mars, and suppose that
34:37
Speaker 2: veterinarian had an interest in the welfare of the human animal,
34:42
Speaker 2: and this veterinarian has experience working with other creatures and
34:48
Speaker 2: has a start from scratch approach. So what would he
34:52
Speaker 2: or she see as the big stressors and the challenges
34:56
Speaker 2: to the modern human animal. And we've touched on some
34:59
Speaker 2: of those already, but I think that martian veterinarian would
35:02
Speaker 2: be inclined to have what some people have called a
35:06
Speaker 2: saluteogenic approach. Saluteogenic means going as far upstream as possible,
35:12
Speaker 2: So salute referring to health genesis meaning beginnings, let's go
35:17
Speaker 2: as far upstream as possible and start there.
35:22
Speaker 1: I just had this vision when I started reading your book,
35:24
Speaker 1: about jumping up on a table in a BET's office
35:26
Speaker 1: and getting on my hands and knees and sort of
35:29
Speaker 1: a panting just I don't know why that came to me,
35:32
Speaker 1: but that's what that's what's suck. But I think, you know,
35:35
Speaker 1: to a certain extent, maybe are our physicians today our
35:38
Speaker 1: veterinarians treat their patients better than physicians are treating their patients.
35:43
Speaker 2: Well, yes, I've had that thought myself, and I've heard
35:48
Speaker 2: other people talk that way, and it does seem to
35:50
Speaker 2: be true. I've gotten more attentive care for my dog
35:56
Speaker 2: sometimes than I receive in a medical office, and there's
36:02
Speaker 2: a lot of things that contribute to that, and I
36:05
Speaker 2: don't think we have time to go into all that,
36:07
Speaker 2: but yes, I do think it's true that sometimes veterinarians
36:10
Speaker 2: pay more attention to their patients than medical doctors do
36:14
Speaker 2: to theirs.
36:15
Speaker 1: Yeah, unfortunately, you draw on three models for experiential design,
36:21
Speaker 1: martial art, athletic training, and West African drum and dance.
36:26
Speaker 1: How can these models inform our practices right?
36:30
Speaker 2: Well, you can kind of cherry pick here, because not
36:34
Speaker 2: everybody's a martial art teacher, not everybody's an athletic trainer,
36:38
Speaker 2: not everybody's a drummer. But you can take elements from
36:42
Speaker 2: each of these. So, for example, you might take from
36:45
Speaker 2: the athletic training model the immersion of the body and
36:51
Speaker 2: the challenge that athletic trainers bring to their athletes, especially
36:57
Speaker 2: what is known as specific training. That's where we look
37:01
Speaker 2: exactly and precisely at the outcomes we're trying to achieve,
37:05
Speaker 2: and then we train people specifically toward those outcomes. So
37:09
Speaker 2: that's a great model. The martial art model, we can
37:12
Speaker 2: draw on things like the focused practice, the community practice
37:16
Speaker 2: that we do together in the dojo. That's a great model,
37:21
Speaker 2: and then in West African drama dance, the beauty of
37:24
Speaker 2: rhythm and the fact that everyone in class is working
37:28
Speaker 2: together to share in the quest to perfect that rhythm.
37:32
Speaker 2: That's something that we can bring in. Even if you
37:34
Speaker 2: don't know how to drum, everybody can do a beat
37:37
Speaker 2: and that's a really valuable experience as well.
37:41
Speaker 1: I've witnessed I watched several of your videos on YouTube
37:45
Speaker 1: and some of the things that you do in terms
37:48
Speaker 1: of the martial arts, and some of the exercises look
37:51
Speaker 1: more like a refined dance to meet in martial arts.
37:55
Speaker 2: It's just yeah, and there's big overlap there. And in fact,
38:00
Speaker 2: some of martial arts styles are very dance, like kung fu, kappawara,
38:05
Speaker 2: all these things really overlap with dance and you can
38:09
Speaker 2: have a lot of fun with that. But then you
38:11
Speaker 2: could also draw on some of the practical self defense
38:17
Speaker 2: parts of the martial arts, and that's relevant to some people,
38:21
Speaker 2: and so there's a lot of ways you can go
38:24
Speaker 2: with this.
38:25
Speaker 1: You know, it's interesting. In the last couple of years,
38:27
Speaker 1: I've spent more time outside of my vehicle and walking
38:31
Speaker 1: using my feet against the ground and probably probably all
38:35
Speaker 1: of my life and what a change has come through me.
38:38
Speaker 1: From a physical I'm seventy two, and from a physical standpoint,
38:41
Speaker 1: the change has been phenomenal.
38:44
Speaker 2: Right, And that's the primary locomotior pattern for bipedal humans,
38:51
Speaker 2: So it would make sense. I mean, you're tapping into
38:53
Speaker 2: something that's very old, probably five or six million years
38:57
Speaker 2: of bipedal history, and of course our bodies and our
39:02
Speaker 2: brains would work better with that type of rhythmic engagement.
39:06
Speaker 1: So yes, absolutely, And not only that, but my doctors
39:11
Speaker 1: have given me glorious reviews. My bloods are wonderful, my
39:15
Speaker 1: blood pressure is wonderful. My heart, which I had to
39:18
Speaker 1: actually have stents put on when I was in my
39:20
Speaker 1: early fifties put in when I was in my early
39:22
Speaker 1: fifties is wonderful. Everything's working beautifully, and I'm grateful that
39:26
Speaker 1: that transition from getting out of the car and onto
39:29
Speaker 1: the ground and also just looking at things as I'm walking,
39:32
Speaker 1: getting into that rhythm I walking, and then observing the
39:34
Speaker 1: beauty of the sky and the trees and the plants
39:38
Speaker 1: and the flowers. You become one, literally become one with
39:42
Speaker 1: that environment.
39:43
Speaker 2: Right. There's something about that speed and that tempo of
39:47
Speaker 2: moving through the world that's so different from driving, because
39:51
Speaker 2: driving at sixty miles an hour whatever it is, you're
39:53
Speaker 2: taking in this highly visual stimulation and your body's not
40:00
Speaker 2: participating really at all. So that's pretty abnormal for the
40:05
Speaker 2: human animal. And getting back to walk in that's a
40:10
Speaker 2: more holistic sensory experience for us, and it reminds us
40:16
Speaker 2: of our normal experience on this planet.
40:20
Speaker 1: Absolutely. My guest Frank Parensich. His book is called Honor
40:23
Speaker 1: the Animal, Experiential Design for teachers, coaches, trainers, therapists, parents
40:29
Speaker 1: and health professionals. We'll be back with more after these
40:32
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Speaker 1: Back on box NOBUS. My guest this week is Frank Parensich.
44:22
Speaker 1: His book is called Honor the Animal Experiential Design for teachers, coaches, trainers, therapists,
44:29
Speaker 1: parents and health professionals. Frank, you share that we have
44:33
Speaker 1: to be adapted and adaptable. How do we start?
44:38
Speaker 2: Oh? I love this distinction because I think it tells
44:41
Speaker 2: us a lot about how we can train and educate ourselves.
44:46
Speaker 2: To be adapted means your body and your skill set
44:52
Speaker 2: is consistent with a particular environment, one that is usually
44:59
Speaker 2: u changing. So if you're adapted to a particular sporting environment,
45:04
Speaker 2: say basketball, you're really good at playing basketball. You're adapted
45:07
Speaker 2: to that set of demands on your body. But what
45:12
Speaker 2: if things change and now you're required to be adaptabull,
45:17
Speaker 2: And that's a completely different skill demand, because now you
45:21
Speaker 2: have to rewire yourself. You have to learn about some
45:24
Speaker 2: new environment and some new skill set. So for the
45:29
Speaker 2: human animal to be fully functional, we have to be both.
45:33
Speaker 2: We have to be both adapted and adaptabule. And to
45:37
Speaker 2: really understand this, I just turned to my dog, because
45:40
Speaker 2: my dog is really adapted to my house and he
45:44
Speaker 2: knows every corner and every smell and everything about the house,
45:47
Speaker 2: and he can run at high speed through the house
45:50
Speaker 2: and do all his fun things. But he's also incredibly adaptabull,
45:54
Speaker 2: So when we move to a new place, it's not
45:57
Speaker 2: very long before he learns that. I think he's a
46:01
Speaker 2: good role model for all of us.
46:03
Speaker 1: You know that with the dog, they say the dog
46:05
Speaker 1: knows everything through scent, that the dog knows when their partner,
46:11
Speaker 1: their keeper, their family is returning. Based on the fact
46:16
Speaker 1: that the scent of the family disappears over a certain
46:18
Speaker 1: period of time, and then they know the timing when
46:20
Speaker 1: they're coming back something for that effect. I'm not an
46:23
Speaker 1: expert on it, but that's what I've read. We're not
46:26
Speaker 1: that adaptable, though, are we.
46:29
Speaker 2: Well, that's what remains to be seen, because what's going
46:34
Speaker 2: to happen with our ecological crisis now is that we
46:37
Speaker 2: are going to be forced into situations now that are
46:40
Speaker 2: extremely unfamiliar and challenging to us. And that's going to
46:44
Speaker 2: be the key is to be adaptable. Can we leave
46:50
Speaker 2: our adapted the cocoons that we live in now and
46:54
Speaker 2: live in some new way? So we're going to do that.
46:57
Speaker 2: We're going to need practical skills, but we're also going
47:01
Speaker 2: to need the psychological flexibility to simply give up the
47:04
Speaker 2: security that we've enjoyed for a long time and now
47:07
Speaker 2: live in some completely new lifestyle. And it remains to
47:11
Speaker 2: be seen whether we can do that.
47:13
Speaker 1: Are there dangers in embracing the change?
47:16
Speaker 10: Oh?
47:16
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely. I mean this is this is our encounter
47:21
Speaker 2: with ambiguity and uncertainty, and there's going to be danger ahead. Absolutely,
47:27
Speaker 2: And I think the more we resist that, the more
47:31
Speaker 2: we resist this ambiguity, the tougher our transition is going
47:37
Speaker 2: to be. And this is that Alan Watts used to
47:40
Speaker 2: talk about a lot. He talked about the wisdom of
47:42
Speaker 2: insecurity and the fact that the more we tie ourselves
47:46
Speaker 2: to security, the more security we're going to want because
47:52
Speaker 2: we're separated from a flux of life. So yeah, yeah,
47:57
Speaker 2: this is this is on our calendar, this is what's
47:59
Speaker 2: coming up for us.
48:00
Speaker 1: But in embracing the change, we are really manifesting an evolution.
48:08
Speaker 2: I think so. I think so. And there may be
48:12
Speaker 2: opportunity in this crisis, and there may be a way
48:16
Speaker 2: for us to enter into some new domain of human experience,
48:20
Speaker 2: at human function, of human new human social relationships. All
48:25
Speaker 2: of these things are possible if we could stay alive
48:28
Speaker 2: long enough to do that. But there's going to be
48:31
Speaker 2: a big transition period ahead.
48:34
Speaker 1: Tell us about your book and organization activism is medicine.
48:39
Speaker 2: Oh right. So this is my attempt to reframe activism
48:46
Speaker 2: because for most of us, when we talk about activism,
48:50
Speaker 2: it just sounds really stressful, and going into politics on
48:55
Speaker 2: any level seems like a world that's just rife with conflict,
49:00
Speaker 2: and we're going to have to start pushing an agenda
49:02
Speaker 2: whatever it is, and that's difficult, that's stress inducing, and
49:08
Speaker 2: I think a lot of us are unwilling to go there.
49:12
Speaker 2: So we don't get involved politics, we don't get involved
49:15
Speaker 2: in activism. We avoid the whole thing. But what if
49:19
Speaker 2: we looked at it from a different angle. What if
49:21
Speaker 2: we said, well, this activism is really an encounter with
49:26
Speaker 2: meaning and purpose, and what if having that meaning and
49:30
Speaker 2: purpose actually makes our bodies and our minds work better,
49:34
Speaker 2: then we're going to get somewhere. And that's what I
49:36
Speaker 2: believe to be the case, because if you have that
49:39
Speaker 2: sense of meaning and purpose, there's medical evidence to show
49:44
Speaker 2: that people are stronger and more resilient when they have
49:47
Speaker 2: that sense of meaning and purpose and act on it.
49:50
Speaker 2: So that's what I mean when I say that activism
49:53
Speaker 2: is medicine. It can make us stronger people.
49:56
Speaker 1: Absolutely, we are touched upon Western medicine before. From personal experience,
50:03
Speaker 1: it seems that traditional Western medicine as of late is
50:06
Speaker 1: more business oriented than patient oriented. Would you agree? And
50:11
Speaker 1: how can we address this?
50:12
Speaker 2: Absolutely? Yes, And in fact, there's an emerging discussion now
50:18
Speaker 2: not just around the capitalism and the for profit part
50:23
Speaker 2: of this, but also you might even call it the
50:27
Speaker 2: tyranny of the medical model over the human experience and
50:30
Speaker 2: the medicalization of human life. And there's Ivan Illits used
50:35
Speaker 2: to write about this. He was worried. He was concerned
50:40
Speaker 2: that modern medicine would become so dominant in our lives
50:44
Speaker 2: that it would eclipse our primal capabilities. And that seems
50:48
Speaker 2: to be the case because more and more human experiences
50:52
Speaker 2: and human qualities now are falling under the umbrella of medicine.
50:58
Speaker 2: So for example, if you you are shy and you
51:01
Speaker 2: have social anxiety, now that's considered a medical condition. Or
51:05
Speaker 2: if you're short, that's now we have a medical solution
51:10
Speaker 2: for that. We have medical solutions for all kinds of
51:14
Speaker 2: things that used to be simply part and parcel of
51:17
Speaker 2: human life. And that is restructuring our entire approach to
51:24
Speaker 2: what it means to be alive. And as a people,
51:27
Speaker 2: we have yet to take this on. That's a conversation
51:30
Speaker 2: we really need to be having.
51:32
Speaker 1: Absolutely. In your book, you say no is not enough.
51:36
Speaker 1: What does that mean?
51:38
Speaker 2: Well? I took that from author Naomi Klein, and she
51:42
Speaker 2: has been writing about activism and culture for a long time,
51:46
Speaker 2: and she talked about Trump two point zero and that
51:50
Speaker 2: whole challenge, and she said, yes, we have to protest,
51:53
Speaker 2: we have to resist. All of those things are important,
51:56
Speaker 2: but as she puts it, no is not enough. In
51:59
Speaker 2: other words, there has to be a building. There has
52:01
Speaker 2: to be a creation. There has to be a new domain,
52:07
Speaker 2: a new thing that we build to replace the old.
52:11
Speaker 2: It's not enough simply to tear down the existing system.
52:15
Speaker 2: There needs to be a foundation of something new and
52:18
Speaker 2: something better. And I think a lot of activists, in
52:22
Speaker 2: our frustration, we fail to see that, or we're content
52:25
Speaker 2: simply to protest and tear down the old. But that's
52:29
Speaker 2: dangerous if there's nothing to put in its place. So
52:33
Speaker 2: that's what she was talking about.
52:35
Speaker 1: And this really starts on the community level, doesn't it.
52:39
Speaker 2: Absolutely it's all about culture, and individual people can have
52:43
Speaker 2: great ideas and great activist inclinations, but yes, any effective
52:50
Speaker 2: work on culture and policy has to be communal and
52:54
Speaker 2: there has to be discourse. There has to be conversation.
52:57
Speaker 2: And as what concerns me now, we with a few exceptions,
53:02
Speaker 2: really aren't talking that much about our ecological crisis. And
53:07
Speaker 2: that's where I hope to make a difference in my work,
53:12
Speaker 2: is to get more people talking about it.
53:14
Speaker 1: Absolutely. There's a wonderful word in various iterations in Africa.
53:20
Speaker 1: The word is ubuntu and it translates as I am
53:24
Speaker 1: because we are. When a child is born in these villages,
53:28
Speaker 1: a gathering takes place where the question is asked, whose
53:32
Speaker 1: child is this? And the village exclaims, simultaneously and unanimously,
53:38
Speaker 1: my child. Are these the philosophies and tenets we need
53:41
Speaker 1: to adopt in our country?
53:43
Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely. The philosophy of Ubuntu is identification with the tribe.
53:53
Speaker 2: It's a social identification. And in contrast the modern world,
53:57
Speaker 2: especially in the West here, we're a pretty individualistic some
54:03
Speaker 2: will even say a narcissistic society, and that focus on
54:09
Speaker 2: the individual and individual achievement that really distracts us from
54:15
Speaker 2: having a sense of community at all. So we need
54:18
Speaker 2: to go back to that fundamental and look at our
54:25
Speaker 2: deep seated need to affiliate with one another that's wired
54:29
Speaker 2: into us. And in that sense, modern culture, modern individualistic culture,
54:34
Speaker 2: is an outlier and an exception. So this is something
54:39
Speaker 2: that we're going to have to reckon with and.
54:41
Speaker 1: Soon, and that really is part of honoring the animal.
54:45
Speaker 2: Right absolutely, because we are a hypersocial animal.
54:49
Speaker 1: There you go, what would you like readers to take
54:51
Speaker 1: away from Honor the Animal.
54:54
Speaker 2: Well, I think the title alone is valuable for people
54:59
Speaker 2: because we get so distracted in honoring other things, most
55:05
Speaker 2: notably money and power and status and that kind of thing.
55:10
Speaker 2: But the title of this book takes us back to fundamentals.
55:14
Speaker 2: If we honor our biology, honor the human animal and
55:18
Speaker 2: the needs of the human animal, not just in ourselves
55:21
Speaker 2: but in the people we work with, then we we'll
55:25
Speaker 2: make a step in the right direction. So that would
55:28
Speaker 2: be my desire for this book, simply to remember the
55:32
Speaker 2: title wonderful.
55:34
Speaker 1: My guest, Frank Farensich his book Honor the Animal Experiential
55:38
Speaker 1: Design for teachers, coaches, trainers, therapist, parents and health professionals
55:42
Speaker 1: and all of us. Frank, please one more time share
55:45
Speaker 1: with our listeners with it and get your books and
55:46
Speaker 1: find out more about you and your wonderful work.
55:49
Speaker 2: You can go to Humananimal dot earth and the book
55:52
Speaker 2: itself is available in all the usual places, so that's
55:57
Speaker 2: easy to find.
55:58
Speaker 1: But also have that YouTube website right.
56:02
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I've got the Honor of the Animal YouTube channel.
56:05
Speaker 1: Frank, thank you so much for joining us today and
56:07
Speaker 1: sharing this valid and very important information.
56:11
Speaker 2: Well, thank you. It's been our real pleasure. I've really
56:14
Speaker 2: enjoyed it.
56:15
Speaker 1: And thank you for joining us on Box Novus. I'm
56:17
Speaker 1: Victor the Voice Firman. Have a wonderful week.