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7: BIS Update Conference: Day 2 · Rittener Reflections

• Jeff (00:13) Hello, this is Jeff Ritner and welcome back to Ritner Reflections, a forum to address the dynamic, complex and essential nature of cross border trade in our ever changing world today. Today is March 19th and this is day two of my special three part episode where we will enjoy real time daily report outs, analysis and insights from three export control experts. who are attending the Bureau of Industries annual update conference on export controls and policy this week in Washington, DC. Today, I have Julie with me to start and others will join soon, but welcome back, Julie. Thank you for carving out some time. I know you're busy at the conference there. Yesterday, we heard that the conference kind of got off to a slow start. And so I'm wondering, how's it going today? Has it picked up and how's the vibe and the atmosphere and the conference going today? Julie Whitt (01:10) Yeah, would say today started off a little more structured. Kevin Curlin talked to us in the introductory session this morning, followed by Jason Sonderman for our afternoon session. And they were a little more thrilled than what actually happened yesterday. Yesterday we were supposed to have a keynote speaker at lunch and and that didn't happen. But after the morning session with Kevin Curlin, we went into well what I found was interesting is they asked us to actually let them know what sessions that we wanted to participate in. And we found out later on that one of the four sessions was actually eliminated and it was the artificial intelligence session. So I think a lot of people were interested in attending that one. But it was canceled. So everybody ended up going into the effectiveness on the, I think it was called the effectiveness. of the excessive acts or something like that. Anyways, it was conveyed by Kevin Cohen by the Office of Technology and Evaluations Division. So that was a pretty good session. was kind of overloaded because It was the backfill of the AI session. So it was very informative though. And then at lunch, we did have, I think Ann Bryce, kind of asked everybody what sessions they wanted to attend in the afternoon. But for the most part, I think most of the stuff that they're putting out, so the end use and end user controls session, that felt more like a filler session, because they were basically just putting out just the regulatory information that was out there. Yesterday in the semiconductor controls session, we really thought that they were going to touch on the AI diffusion rule some, but they... did not to do that. but for the most part, I think there's a lot of information that is still questionable and you can tell in the vibe of the conference that they're a little reluctant to answer questions and go into further detail about certain topics. you can tell they're in a transition period right now. Jeff (03:46) Right, yeah, I would imagine that so. mean, some of the players aren't in place. There's probably a desire to relook at what was actually put out there under the Biden administration and maybe put their own mark on it. So I could imagine they're hesitant to say too much. I am interested though, Julie, in Kevin Kerlin. Now, Kevin Kerlin has been at the agency for a very long time. He most recently spent quite a bit of time in the export enforcement area and now he's kind of taken over Julie Whitt (03:49) Yeah. right? yeah. Right? Mm-hmm. Jeff (04:14) Matt Bormans role. I'm just curious, you said he spoke as a keynote, anything from Kevin that, you he's not like the politico, right, that came in the administration. He's really a, you know, a BIS in place. Anything you picked up from Kevin and how he's kind of approaching this? Julie Whitt (04:24) Pray! I think, mean, in the message that he conveyed, was basically that they had made a lot of progress in the past and they continue, they are going to assume the same type of progress moving forward in the future. So that was the message that I got from him, that their intent is to stay on the same path. I mean, industry knows that there may be a pivot just because everyone is not in place. So it's yet to be seen. Jeff (04:58) Right, yeah. think that seems to be the key theme I'm hearing is let's wait and see what's going to happen, right? Yeah. So Kevin also has, you he's come out of enforcement. And I think you mentioned that they had an informed discussion by enforcement. think it was John Sonderman, think. Any surprises, any a-ha's, anything from the enforcement side that you heard? Julie Whitt (05:04) yeah, yeah, Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Not really. We just got out of our enforcement session. So of course, you know, they always go over all the cases that they prosecuted in the last year. They do emphasize that, you know, their intent is to pick up on enforcement. But I think that's pretty normal. They always, you know, the intent is always to increase enforcement efforts. Jeff (05:26) Okay. Julie Whitt (05:46) Yeah, for the most part, it's all pretty, it's pretty much the same information, yeah, until the transition and other people get in place. Everybody is in an acting position right now. So everybody that's being introduced, that, you know, Ann Bryce is acting and I think... Jeff (05:52) Yeah. Right. Okay. Yeah. Julie Whitt (06:11) this last guy, was active. So everybody's in an acting role until everything is is firmed up. But yeah, for the for the most part, you can tell it's a transition period right now. And one of the questions I raised with one of the regulators, which was a policy person yesterday was if you guys are putting out all this information and basically everything is Jeff (06:23) Yeah. Yes. Yes. Julie Whitt (06:39) all of the information is based on the past, what we've learned in the past regs. If there is a change, then how are we supposed to strategize as an industry, especially if this next administration chooses to walk back on some of those regulations? And the message from that person was, You know, everything is still up in the air and you're right. It's hard to strategize in this environment. you know, I mean, from my perspective, you know, we get flowdowns from customers and suppliers and things of that nature. So it's hard for us to strategize based upon an uncertain environment that we're dealing with right now. Jeff (07:32) Right. That's funny that you use that word uncertain, because that's kind of been my theme of this year is this, we're living in this time of uncertainty and everybody wants certainty. Everybody wants to know because you're right, you cannot strategize, you cannot plan, you cannot really accomplish what you need to all the way through the chain, right? Through your suppliers and so on, if you don't know what's coming. And I think that's probably the most difficult part of this. And so what I'm hearing you say from your experience on the ground there, it feels like we're still in that. Julie Whitt (07:37) Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Right? Jeff (08:01) period of uncertainty. just don't know what might be around the corner and what they might be thinking. And maybe, as you say, maybe they don't even know what they themselves might not even know what. Julie Whitt (08:02) Yeah. Exactly. And yeah, right. And that's the perception that I get is that they are sitting in these uncertain positions, right? Some of them don't even know if they're gonna be around, you know, because some are choosing to opt out and go ahead with retirement and some might be shifting to other positions. So everything is just kind of in limbo right now. Jeff (08:17) Yeah. Yeah. wow. Right, right. Wow, that makes it hard. I was curious, lunch, you said you had a speaker today at lunch. Who was that again? Was that enforcement or who was at lunch? Julie Whitt (08:48) Lunch was Kevin Curlin. No, it was song. Jeff (08:50) Kevin was lunch, no. Julie Whitt (08:53) Sonderman may be at lunch. Who was at lunch today? Yeah, it was Sonderman. Jeff (09:01) Well maybe more importantly, what did you have for lunch? Was it good? Julie Whitt (09:03) Yeah. It's the typical, the typical, typical conference meals, you know, salmon and, and rubber chicken. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There is certainty in the meals. That's true. Yeah. Jose Vega (09:09) you Jeff (09:13) Yeah. Chicken That's what I would have expected Some things don't change some things you can be certain of and that might be one of them Yeah, yes So we can Jose Vega (09:24) Thank Jeff (09:33) probably expect tonight's celebrate our what do they call it the networking reception probably will be the same What do they normally serve? I forget they have? Guacamole and I don't know Julie Whitt (09:37) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. a buffet style of something usually. But yeah. So one of the big questions that we're trying to nail down right now is this whole AI artificial intelligence. know the advanced chip integrated circuit designers list, approved list. So I've been raising, because there's been a lot of people that have had questions about Jeff (09:48) Yeah, yeah, yeah, Yeah. Julie Whitt (10:11) people actually got on this list and how do you get on the list and what's the criteria for being on the list. If you do have you know ICs that fall under the provisions of the advanced chips or if you don't have ICs that fall under the provisions of the advanced chips do you still need to be on the list. Those are questions that I've been posing to these regulators because there's a lot of foundries and OSATs that are standing up protocols, you know, based on what, I mean, because they have certain due diligence that they have to conduct in order to meet, you know, parameters to move forward with business. So I've just been kind of floating these questions around. Jeff (10:44) Mm-hmm. Julie Whitt (11:03) And, you know, some of those questions can't be answered firmly or you're asked to send an email in or you're at... So I still think there's still some... I think there's still a huge lack of clarity on the rule. Jeff (11:25) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Julie Whitt (11:25) with the regulators themselves. So I look forward to seeing what's going to happen in the future with that, especially with the whole new, you know, our most recent due diligence rule and, you know, the changes, of course, you know, there's public comments that have been made to the AI Diffusion Rule. And so I'm looking forward to seeing what's going to come out of that. They did say that they're going through the comments right now and that trying to Work through those comments so that they can put out another correction So that'll be good to see Jeff (12:00) Right. Well, great, Julie. I know you want to run off to that reception. So anyway, thank you. Thank you for joining. We'll talk to you again tomorrow. So thank you for your insights. And yeah, have a good evening. fun. All righty. Thanks so much. See you, Julie. Julie Whitt (12:09) I'm so eager. Okay. All right, thank you. Thanks, Jeff. Have a great day. Bye-bye. Jeff (12:24) Okay, think we have Jose with us now. Hi Jose, how are you? Jose Vega (12:29) Hi Jeff, how you doing? Doing well. Jeff (12:31) Doing well, I was really looking forward to getting your perspective on today's activities. But first, yesterday, you told us that this was your first time to DC. So I'm just wondering, I've been there many, times as you know, at night it's a beautiful place with all the lights and everything. Did you get a chance to get out last night and see anything? And what do you think of DC? Jose Vega (12:52) Yeah, I did actually. got to go to a couple of restaurants afterwards. As you know, some of the law firms host clients and whatnot. we got to attend two of the events all within walking distance from the hotel. And the weather right now, it's great here. And you saw it at very, very lively town, actually. Everybody seemed like, you know, every few seconds you would see somebody jogging, you know, past you. or near you. my manager Karen has, you know, a space here. So she was saying that once the sun comes out, people start moving around and trying to enjoy as much as they can, right? Because the spring is kind of like the best time before it gets a little too warm. But no, it's a lively town. The restaurants we went to were great. Got to the second place we went to. We were being served by a who mixed a non-alcoholic drink and I really really enjoyed it. Jeff (13:44) that's good. Good. All right. Well, hopefully you can get out at some point and get a chance to see the cherry blossom because I understand they're almost ready to be full bloom. So hopefully you get to do that. It's beautiful there. So I'm just curious, Jose, day two, it's come and gone, except for your reception tonight. But I'm just curious. Yesterday there was a feeling from all three of you that things got off to a slow start and so on. I'm just curious today, how did it go? Jose Vega (14:01) Right. Jeff (14:09) Little bit better, moving bit better, more information, how did you do? Jose Vega (14:15) Yeah, much better. Today I thought, know, they started off with a panel from representatives from METI, Japan's METI, Korea's MOTI, and the European Union Commission. So that was just kind of more of kind of their perspective of how their countries are aligning with the US's trade policies. And so... They each spoke about how their policies align and they are looking to collaborate and align with partner countries such as the US on implementing export controls. So with that, just thought the theme was mostly around the lines of the sanctions of Russia and Iran. That was tend to be the theme, but I was actually pleasantly surprised to see how much alignment there is already between those countries and some of our, you know, the US's controls. And so I found that interesting. you know, they also mentioned just the partnership has been trade with the US. Just, you know, some of the numbers are providing were pretty impressive. So I enjoy that quite a bit. at the beginning. then, you know, the breakout sessions that I attended for the first one was with the export control officers, the ECOs. And then went over the end use checks. And I found that interesting. They had folks that are based in Turkey, Dubai, New Delhi, Ottawa, and Helsinki, right? And so one thing that they mentioned was that these destinations are not Jeff (15:37) OK. Jose Vega (15:57) chosen at random, there's some thought behind it because these are massive transshipment hubs. So that's where you're looking at potentially diversion risks and things like that. So, no, it was interesting. They each gave their of like their region or country specific tools, like business registries, things like that that you could potentially use for your due diligence. Jeff (16:04) Mm-hmm. Yes. Jose Vega (16:22) The theme there was also just enhance your due diligence within these regions simply because of just the diversion concerns and whatnot. So that was one of the breakout sessions. The other one was on the regulatory review. And I caught Julie's comments at the end there as far as what she's looking to get. And for me, I was looking to get some insight from... from BIS with regards to the AI diffusion rule. So as you know, won't be the compliance date for that. It's not until May of this year. So a lot can happen. We're still about somewhat mid-March. for us, something could happen in that area as far as a change with regards to the priorities from the Trump administration with regards to potentially making changes to it, what not. So that was my interest in that breakout session. And unfortunately, they were pretty, they're pretty honest in that they mentioned that at this point they don't know. They don't know what the direction will take as far as any proposed rules, any future regulatory action. Jeff (17:26) Yeah, I got the same basic sense from Julie. The folks that you're listening to that are presenting these breakouts and so on, it appears like they haven't been given the memo from above. That's what it sounds like. And so it's probably a very difficult position to be in because you got all these people wanting answers, wanting to know what is the conclusion. And they can't really give it because they don't have that. that direction from above, because the players are all still coming on board. So I can see that could be frustrating if you were hoping to get some answers. Jose Vega (18:00) Yeah, unfortunately, it's a bit disappointing because you come to these types of conferences for that level of insight, right? That you're looking to at least help you guide as you prepare for upcoming changes, right? So for example, with the AI diffusion rule, if it's going to be changed or revised in one way or another, you know, we... Jeff (18:10) Yes, yes. Jose Vega (18:28) We would like to get that information as as possible. So if we need to pivot and change our approach as far as whatever controls we need to implement within our own processes and systems, it gives us that lead time, that additional lead time as much as possible. And again, unfortunately, we didn't get that insight, but we just have to be patient. Jeff (18:30) Yes. Right. Yeah. Well, I understood that there was a session on export enforcement. And yesterday, I think I heard that there's this seemed to be the first day there seemed to be kind of a focus on enforcement. Did that kind of carry through and any ahas or anything that you heard or learned from the enforcement discussion? Jose Vega (18:58) Yes, that was. I don't, as you mentioned in yesterday's plenary, there was that theme, but the plenary here, which was the closing session for today, was enforcement. So was mostly OEE talking about how OEE does things and talking about their highlights. Some of the statistics site, they've added over 330 entities to the entity list last year, 26 entities to the ETL and so forth. They conducted over 1,100 ECO checks and used checks last year, which was a record number. So it was mostly about who they are, what they do, how they do it. And I didn't get much insight as far as what they're focusing on for the future. I feel like, to what you were saying, it's possible that they're also waiting for that memo, right? As far as from the title, like what is... Jeff (19:56) Right. Jose Vega (20:06) What is gonna be the priority? So for me, think everybody's kind of on the same boat, just kind of waiting for the direction from the Trump administration. Jeff (20:14) Yeah, and I, if I recall, I don't think they've actually, I don't even know if they've identified yet the person that's going to run OEE. It was Matt Axelrod, who was really a wonderful friend of industry, you know, and we always enjoyed it. For example, at RepTac, we had Matt come in. I don't know if they've actually identified it if they have, I don't think the person has been confirmed. So that area is probably still, you're right, there's probably still a sense that we don't know exactly the direction yet. So anyway. Jose Vega (20:43) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Jeff (20:44) Yeah. So, Jose, whenever I've attended these events, one of the things that I have always found most valuable was all of the sidebars, you know, because you've got breaks and you're going into the big room and you see a person like four tables over you haven't seen in three years or 10 years and they wave their hand, you go up there. And so there's a lot of that sort of, I always felt it was a little bit like, you know, the annual reunion. So anyway, I'm just curious, you had any... Jose Vega (20:59) Right. Jeff (21:13) any of those sorts of moments where you've met somebody you didn't expect to meet or something like that where you found somebody. Jose Vega (21:22) Yeah, like I mentioned yesterday, I have seen some former colleagues here at the update and I've been able to catch up here and there. Actually, I went out to dinner so I ran into an old colleague I worked with back in my Symantec days. I think you nailed it when you said it was a kind of surprise. So we kind of see each other like, hey, hey. Jeff (21:40) Ha Yeah. Jose Vega (21:49) How's it going? You it's just like, you're here. And then you do those catch ups and you're right. It's those little sidebars, right? Sharing each other's pains and whatnot. far as like, exactly, exactly. And then, you you try to do some, you know, the best practice sharing as well, right? Because you tend to end up using maybe Jeff (21:59) lot of commiserating. Jose Vega (22:10) some of the same systems, some of the same processes, or you know some of the same people, right? And so you do some of that knowledge sharing. So that's, to your point, it's really useful because you're seeing how others in the industry are also kind of dealing as much as they can, as best as they can with the controls and the regulations. And also just catching up, right? Old friends, old colleagues, where... you're asking about their careers, their families, just overall how they're doing. So that's great. I have also been seeing some folks that I've known in the past, but because of something from across the hall or something, haven't, I know they're here, but I haven't had a chance to go and say hi. So there's still a few folks that I've seen that I want to go talk to and just catch up. That'd be great as well. Jeff (23:02) Sure, sure. Well, you got right after this, think it's pretty quick here. They're gonna start the networking reception. So there's your opportunity to go mingle around. And I always found the reception was good in that sense that you met people that you haven't seen, it's also a little bit, it was a bit strange because sometimes you don't meet anybody you know, so you're kind of wandering around. But anyway, I hope you have a good time with the reception and meet some folks and. Jose Vega (23:09) Yes. Yes. Yeah. Jeff (23:30) And tomorrow we will meet one last time and it'll be good to get the overall impression and anything else that you have to share. So thanks again, Jose, for spending some time out of your very busy day with this conference and giving us all an idea of what's going on. So thank you. Jose Vega (23:44) No, no, thank you for having me, Jess. This is really cool. Just let you know, my wife already heard the first episode and she, you know, it's given me a hard time about it, but no, overall, she said, no, you know, it was really good. She's already subscribed to your podcast. So there you go. Jeff (24:00) Okay, great, great. Well, that's good. Well, thanks again and we'll talk soon. Jose Vega (24:06) Sounds good. Have a good one, Jeff. Love it. Jeff (24:07) Okay, you too. Jeff (24:08) hi, Robert. Thank you again for joining us today on day two of this Rittener reflections. Yesterday, we had a great discussion. I got a good idea of what's happening. How did today go from your perspective? Robert Kearsley (24:18) Yeah, I mean, I think it went very well. I think a couple of the breakout sessions certainly had other agencies participate. So State showed up at least one of the sessions and some other interagency players. So that was nice. I thought the plenary session was excellent, the first starting off in the morning, particularly having the export control regime representatives of the EU, South Korea and Japan. Jeff (24:51) So they each one of them, each one of them spoke to the whole audience, everybody, right? Okay. Yeah. Robert Kearsley (24:51) And you know what I mean? They did, they each spoke, they both, you know, and there's kind of a, I'll say universal theme that's been happening. And I think a lot of it has to do around emerging technologies, right? Seem to be high focus for all these regimes, including of course the United States, but there was, you know, mention of, you know, advanced node ICs, additive manufacturing. quantum computing and artificial intelligence as being kind of the priority set right now. And so I've seen throughout the last two days, that theme throughout many of the sessions and from of course, is the regulators, but also now the, I'll say a plurilateral or multilateral effort as well. Jeff (25:40) Yeah, Jose mentioned this and he said something like he was surprised at how much they all seem on the same page already, the multilateral punch. Robert Kearsley (25:51) Exactly. Yeah, I think again, there's understanding that there's forces out there that are lending itself for cooperation. I noticed there was kind of a reference to there needs to be unification. There needs to be there has to be common ground. Again, there are these concerns, especially escalation of emerging technologies and being in adversaries hands. And of course, the commonality among that countries like Korea not only have those concerns, they're surrounded by, they have North Korea as a concern, as well as China. So there's an emphasis to say, we have other concerns like Iran and Russia like that, but we have neighbors we're directly concerned with. And certainly when it comes to emerging technologies, it's high on their list. Jeff (26:44) Yeah, one of the things that I would have been really interested in on this topic, Robert, is for many, many years now, we've been operating under Wasenar. And we saw this last year that they had to go, because of the rush situation, they had to go around and they called it this minus one and so on. And I know there's been a lot of agreements with different countries and so on. Do you get any sense that we might be moving to a replacement for Wasanar or do you think we're going to get an additional group of certain countries? Did you get any insights into what might be happening from a multilateral perspective? Robert Kearsley (27:20) You know what's interesting is the representative from Korea, Sung-il Kim is his name. He's actually the director general for the Ministry of Trade and Energy. He seemed to suggest that there was work to be done, but it should be done within the current regimes, as he called it. suggests to me that, we have a framework to make these things happen. We should work within that framework. Jeff (27:54) Right, right. Now that makes sense. we'll see how that goes, especially with this new administration where we don't, we seem to be, if I would kind of diverge a little bit to tariffs, we seem to be creating enemies, if you will, or, yeah, exactly. And so I wonder if, how that plays out. Robert Kearsley (28:11) going it alone and well Right, Yeah, I think, again, there seem to be a lot of, again, same message for this session, which was very good. so, again, I think they all seem to be on the same page, but We'll see if any of that changes. But I think it is important to understand at least. Another thing about multilateral regimes, Japan had a little different take. The gentleman who represented Japan for METI, Katsuro Ogari, he said they monitor other regulations. It seems like Japan, I think I've noticed this in other contexts where they- they're kind of waiting. They look to see what others are doing before they act. But he brought that up more than once that he said, well, we monitor what others are doing and, you know, whether monitoring actually enables it to actually be regulation or not. But but it seems like they're a little and I think there have been instances where Japan, right, may not go along with everything. So, yeah, I thought it was an interesting comment. They they monitor. So whatever that means. Jeff (29:22) Yeah, right. Right, interesting. Yeah, that's is interesting. So one of the things I heard from both Julian and Jose was the people that are speaking, most of them are, think if not all of them are non-politicos, right? They're the civil servant, they're the professional person. And they all seem to be hesitant to provide answers, uncertain about what might happen coming from down, from above and so on. Did you get that same sense in your breakouts and the people you met with or different sense? Robert Kearsley (29:56) You know, I don't, frankly, I don't know if it's any different than the other time with this, right? Or I any of the agencies in terms of national transparency or issues, right? Hot topics of the day. Certainly there's a reluctance and they do seem to suggest that they're at least as business as usual. They are processing licenses. They are doing these things. So they're not, they're not static. But yeah, think again, I think they're still looking for direction from the politicos who are not in place yet. So yeah. Jeff (30:26) Yep. OK. So we need to wait and see where things go from here. Yeah. Apparently, Kevin Curlan did a talk. I think it was a Plain area. I'm really curious, Kevin has been at BIS for a very long time. Most recently, he worked on the export enforcement side. And he's replacing. Robert Kearsley (30:33) Yes. Jeff (30:54) basically Matt Borman. Just curious, did you get any nuggets, any insights from Kevin, know, being that insider as to what might be happening or was it the same sort of word just carrying on going forward and so on? Robert Kearsley (31:07) The only thing, the only notes that I had taken with Kevin, because his comments were brief, it was more introductory to the rest of the panel to allow them time. And by the way, one of the other Jeff (31:17) OK. Robert Kearsley (31:19) plenary members was an EU representative. think I mentioned that. But he did stress aligning with the partners, common ground. Again, he mentioned quantum computing, advanced semiconductors, additive manufacturing. Again, this theme of emerging technologies and here's our priorities. But no extra nuggets in that. Jeff (31:43) Okay, great. So maybe, no extra nuggets, yeah. Okay, well, maybe just one last question for you, Robert. Any surprises, ah-hahs, anything that you leave at this point with something you didn't expect? Robert Kearsley (32:04) something I didn't expect. But the gentleman who spoke, again, it was a lunch session, but it was from NIST, and he talked about NIST's role in setting these standards and working with companies to come with standards around AI, around quantum computing. So I didn't know there was this kind of, I mean, there have been for other things for NSISD, but he just talked about how, again, it's a partnership that they're going to be responsible for setting many of these standards and, working with industry as to what those standards are. So I thought that was very interesting. He also kind of broke down what quantum computing is in a way that for us novices made it easier to understand. But I just thought that conversation was very interesting and the role of NIST is gonna play, or NIST, in quantum computing development and AI. Jeff (33:07) Yeah, maybe that might be an avenue to go down with our RAPTAC open sessions to get somebody from NIST to come in and share with us all what they're doing and how we might be able to partner and help. So that'd be an idea. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Robert Kearsley (33:22) That was exactly what I was thinking. I thought, he'd be terrific to speak on that and exactly, know, role they play, what they expect from industry and how industry can, again, better partner with their effort. Jeff (33:35) Sure. Anything else that you want to share with us today before we shut this down and... Robert Kearsley (33:44) Yeah, no, I, you know, this session I attended the space controls session and also AUKUS. What was nice about AUKUS was they did have a representative from the State Department as well as, you know, the BIS folks. And it was very, very constructive because they talked about. Jeff (33:50) okay. Robert Kearsley (34:07) the ITAR starting with that, starting with jurisdiction and working down from how you, if you're gonna see if it's subject to ITAR and specially designed under that. And they kind of went through the steps of working through to see if it eventually is gonna be subject to the AR. Same with the space controls, they did the same thing, starting with, so it was very useful production. presentation, but the AUKUS one I thought was very interesting in terms of understanding. limitations, the restricted controls list, for example, that under ITAR, it's one of those technologies you can't use AUKUS. But like a lot of exemptions or license exceptions, they're encouraging people to use them. They did demonstrate the really reduction in the number of licenses and freeing up the time from their licensing officers by the implementation of this. There was also representatives from Australia on the AUKUS panel as well as from UK. yes, so they talked about implementing their regulations. was within days, all three countries with Australia, UK and US implementing the regulations, very similar controls. And now under their controls, deemed exports is actually defense services is. Jeff (35:12) Yes, okay. okay. Yeah. Robert Kearsley (35:39) is part of that, which they didn't have before. So I found that very interesting and timely for lot of companies. Jeff (35:41) Okay. okay. Yeah. Yes, yes, yeah, absolutely. Very much so. Okay, anything else? Robert Kearsley (35:59) Note that the last open session plenary in the end was enforcement, as enforcement likes to joke around a lot and it's entertaining, I didn't see anything new coming out of that other than they threaten with more penalties and more enforcement, but limited resources, so to be determined. Jeff (36:16) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's see. See where that goes. Yeah, that's always a standard everybody has to hear from the enforcement folks. Okay, well, I again appreciate Robert, you providing us with the details that you've given. It's very interesting. I think for our audience will be super useful since many people were not able to attend. Robert Kearsley (36:23) Yeah. Great. Exactly. Jeff (36:41) So I'm gonna go ahead and shut down here. Thank you everyone for joining us today. We've had a wonderful discussion with Julie Witt, with Jose Vega and with Robert Kearsley. We'll be back for day three tomorrow of Rittener Reflections. And at that time, we will wrap up and get our final thoughts of how it all went this week in Washington, DC. So thank you for joining. Talk to you all soon.