Latest / Dystopian Theology / ft. Andres Romay (S. 1, Ep. 2)
Transcript
- Kristin: Hi everyone, welcome to season one of Dystopian Theology. I am your host, Kristen, and today I am introducing Andres Rome in the Netherlands, where he's introducing himself. Go ahead, Andres. andres: Hey Christian, thank thank you. Thank you. yeah, it's nice to chat with you. We've been talking about this for a long time. and yeah, I mean my name is Andres, I come from Peru and I'm living in the Netherlands with my wife and daughter. my wife is Dutch. So I've been here for two years now. Time is flying, and just doing life, working, and Yeah, we used to live in Spain. We were there for five, six years. That's where you and I met, Kristen. And I guess that's yeah, big part of what brings us here, I guess. to this conversation. So yeah, that's just a l a little bit about me. Kristin: So I'm wondering, Andres, what brings you specifically to this conversation? What what motivates you to dive into these topics? andres: Yeah. when you contacted contacted me, I was in a place and I still am in a place where I feel so detached from the church and Christianity. I've not been congregating, fellowshipping with other people because of a lot of very disappointing things that went on during our time in Spain. a lot of heartbreak. related to church. And when you wrote me and you asked me if I wanted to be a sort of like a sparring partner for for a podcast of conversations and I immediately thought like, yeah, this is exactly what I need. Even though I feel like I have not a lot to offer. and I I think that part of that insecurity is just directly connected to my my old ways of thinking and just just the feeling that yeah, me not being involved or committed to a system, a church at the moment, being connected to to many many or other believers that much, doesn't give me any right or any authority or any reason to to be saying anything at this point about anything regarding faith. and God and the church and yeah. So I don't know why the impulse to say yes was so quick. it's has not been a an easy thing to to pull off to get get us into this conversation. and yeah I think partly it's also some resistance on my part. and I I think it's just like that that that feeling of Should I be concerned about what I I could say? 'cause I'm Kristin: Do you think it's like this need to like, I don't know, be the ministry guy, be the pastor? andres: Yeah, I I think it's a alt how do you say it? Vastage va bastago, we say in Spanish, my goodness, vestiges vestiges of a sense of Kristin: Vestiges, vestiges. Mm-hmm. andres: a responsibility of upholding a a very yeah curated sp speech and commentary about the church and and and faith and things we do as Christians. So I think it's that sense of responsibility. and I'm also sometimes concerned of just the terrible things that might come out of my mouth just because I feel so far from God as well, you know, and Kristin: Mm-hmm. andres: like nothing is really rooting me to to him that much these days and in the sense of as him being the source of truth. and of love. so yeah, I think that's what what's yeah kept me running a little bit from this this specific session. Kristin: So, first of all I wanna mention that I didn't ask you to be a sparring partner, but that's what you keep saying. we are getting in the ring here and I'm andres: Yeah. these are this the the stories I tell myself, obviously. Kristin: Yeah. And I don't know if I'm hoping that you can that you realize that I am not indebted to that system anymore either. And therefore, like I at least have no judgment. And I think that a lot of the people who are going to be listening to this podcast have wrestled with the things that you're wrestling with. andres: Mm-hmm. Kristin: And that I'm wrestling with. we went through a lot of those things in Spain together, unfortunately. And it's been, we have a shared story, at least with that part of it. so these are these are things that a lot of people are wrestling with. And it I think it's not, you know, it's not even just Christians. it's people who grew up in all kinds of different religious institutions who are like, what works. I think people are also losing trust in politics, losing trust in everything. And that's just as true in Europe as it is in the US. it's just as volatile in a lot of Europe right now as it is in the US and in a lot of other parts of the world. So to me, this is like we're what we're going through, we're going through with a generation. And you know, for some people it's like I said, they've they've lost hope Because they they no longer trust the political process. For other people, they're looking at the ecological collapse, and they're like, okay, how do you go on looking at what we're facing with the climate and things like that? So I really just I think it's a common experience in so many andres: Mm. Kristin: ways of okay, so now what? I I had these ideas, I had these plans, I had this sense of who I was and of what the world is supposed to be all about and my place inside of it. And now where do I go? Now andres: Yeah, exactly. Kristin: I've I've lost my world because it proved to be a sham in a lot of ways. And I so I think there's a lot of us that are still wrestling, still grappling, and still trying to pick up the pieces. or, you know, I don't know, maybe we need to get to the point where we're not trying to pick up pieces anymore. That's where I'm at. andres: Yeah, that's what I was that's what I was thinking as well. Yeah. Yeah, this is a a a sense of abandonment of okay, what's what's the point of even picking up the pieces? yeah, 'cause I I mean like you said I the The the amount of involvement that we had in in the in the church in Spain and how it's so contrasting to at least how I'm experiencing faith at the moment and and fellowship is is striking to be honest and there was a s a a s sense of purpose and a sense of belonging that I had there and of building towards a common purpose and common goals. And as things started to collapse and as disappointment started to arise, you sort of ask yourself, Okay, w like it's almost like who am I really? because I would I'm not right now I'm not the person who says, Okay, I'm I'm a little bit done with the church and I'm I'm s I'm still a a follower of Jesus and I'm just gonna do my own thing. I wouldn't I wouldn't even call myself that at this point either, you know, because I if I'm being honest, it's not like I'm really walking closely to to Jesus at this at this moment. So it's it is really f feels like being in a desert, a dry desert of not being able to grasp who I am in in the world other than the person who still needs to be loving and s still needs to be present for his family and friends. who yeah, how how many of them are s are left, right? and still needs to be responsible and work. and go through the things that most people have to go through and take the responsibilities that we have to take, right? 'cause life goes on in that sense. But yeah, there's I feel like something is missing, but it's also it feels like it's unreachable. Whereas before it felt reachable, this this God thing, this community thing. It felt reachable. It it felt like it was worth worth fighting for. Now it doesn't feel entirely like that. It it doesn't feel entirely worth it, you know? And that's where I'm at. and I though I know that's that's y Still somewhat vague and abstract and we can obviously talk more about specific things that happened. And I don't I Kristin: Yeah, andres: don't know if you wanna go there but yeah. Kristin: I do. I wanna know like the question that I keep thinking of for you is how would you describe the thing that you were hoping for or the thing that you thought was promised within the system of Christianity? andres: I thought that this community, this closeness, this fellowship that we were building that everybody would a after obviously some deliberation and sometimes disagreement, everybody in in their heart of hearts would truly desire to I wouldn't even say be on the same page, but love one another despite disagreements, despite different ways of looking at things and doing things, that that we would all be able to reconcile as we navigated this these meetings, these these leadership meetings or or just church interactions, decisions that had had to be made, are trying to build something with a bunch of yeah imperfect people. I think that that promise that I was hoping to to always encounter in the church was yeah, we can still love each other. We can still love each other and we can be humble with one another, towards one another. Humility, I think it's a big word for me, that one that is popping right now in my head. to go through this without entitlement. Kristin: Yeah. andres: And that was the opposite of what I found in in my time in Spain. And I think that my position, my my thinking now is if I had stayed longer anywhere else, you know, I would have also encountered it encountered it i in other places, not just in this bubble that we were in in Spain, in Alicante. So yeah, maybe I've created a stereotype in my head and maybe that's not healthy. But I was hoping for love, reconciliation, humility amongst ourselves. I was not there. Kristin: Yeah. And just to give people a little bit of context, because evangelical Christianity in Spain is is a different kind of experience than it would be in Peru for sure, or in the US. So it's a very kind of small community in Spain. It's a lot of it's an immigrant community. The church that you and I met in and were first a part of and leading ministries in was a very seemingly vibrant international church. we would have Sundays with five languages being translated and headphones at once. I think at one point we had German, French, Chinese, Russian all going. And there was this sense of like Man, even though some of us can't even talk to each other directly, we can express love. And there's something beautiful about, you know, we're in such a small place. So what choice do we have? This is what I was thinking like, wow, this is part of what this is is, you know, there's so few evangelicals here that andres: Mm-hmm. Kristin: we kind of have no choice but to like band together, really care, really care about this andres: Band together, yeah. Kristin: place, really care about each other. and this is part of my thing with the what I'm calling the imperial religion. What drove us apart really had nothing to do with cultural differences at andres: No, no. Kristin: all. Had nothing to do with that. It had nothing to do with political difference, ideological difference, even there were people so many from so many different points of view coming into that church. andres: Yeah. Kristin: It was just pride, like you're saying, control and i in other words, It's not actually where we differ, it's what we hold in common. andres: Yeah. Kristin: It and it's it's the system that we're working in that pushes us in certain directions and creates a certain dynamic that it becomes really, really hard to work within or move within and you end up stuck. And unfortunately, I think it's a system that enables the proud, enables people that want to control, people that Have a lot of fear. It's it it's making me think of mutual friends of ours who are also in leadership at that church who, and this is the the kind of thing that I'm talking about. They never really wanted to name what was going on. They didn't want to warn anybody who was about to encounter it, what was already going on. in fact, it kind of s andres: That's true. Kristin: seemed like the opposite. but the comment was made to me, you know, there are just cultural differences. between us and British people. andres: Yeah. Yeah. No. Kristin: And ultimately I don't think that was the problem. andres: In any case I think the cultural difference is actually i it was like very enriching. is that how you say it? Enriching, right? Kristin: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Completely. Yeah. andres: yeah, I in any case I think it made the community stronger. b because you could you could see that love displayed despite the differences. Usually language and and culture can be a a very decent reason or excuse not to bond with somebody, not to get close to somebody. But I think the reason it was enriched is because you could see that love displayed in the sense that people were getting closer to each other despite their different cultures, you know? Kristin: Yeah. It was like because of the fact that we couldn't always speak each other's language even, you had to find other, even more meaningful ways to express your love for people. andres: Yeah. Yeah. So no, I agree that that was not the reason. I never thought that cultural differences was the reason for some of these disappointments in in church. And yeah, I you heard that one with culture, the one that I that I heard also was it's just a different personalities. I also Kristin: Mm-hmm. andres: don't think that was that was why certain things happened. or Kristin: Yeah. andres: certain conflicts happened where unity and reconciliation were not cultivated. You know, so yeah. Kristin: Yeah. Yeah. And I think andres: So cop out. Kristin: what it's a cop out. Or it's a yeah, I guess it is. And I guess it's a minimization of it too. so this is one of the things the features of this thing that I'm calling Christianity andres: Yeah. Kristin: and how it enables and even promotes and encourages this really bad, really toxic, community destroying behavior and how it also minimizes the the tr the real meaning of that and the real impact that it has on people. and and I think that you're absolutely right that if you had stayed in Peru or you'd stayed or gone anywhere else, you could have very well run into the same things. And I mean you saw later on through Yeah, the next place that you tried, that this was also tied up with Peru. And so the dynamic crossed the crossed the sea. And I know from my experiences in the US and in Thailand and elsewhere that in spite of vast cultural differences, and even if things look a little bit different in how conflict happens, the the system of Christianity and kind of what it promotes and how it becomes part of just reinforcing a status quo that's really, really bad, does that. I think one of the biggest things is just minimizing and invalidating people's concerns, invalidating people's pain. It's like until there's a major sex abuse scandal, andres: Yeah. Kristin: nothing's happening. andres: yeah, a lot of people sitting in face, a lot of witnesses staying quiet, washing their hands, all for the sake of keeping their quote unquote good standing within the system. Kristin: Mm-hmm. andres: their quote unquote good relationships with the people in power inside th these churches and churches and ministries. And yeah, it's just like Kristin: Yeah. andres: I feel like a vicious cycle and it's hard to say these things because I still tell myself many times, many, many times, if I if if were to talk to these people, they would still say, Well, it certain things maybe could have gone different, could have been better and we made the choices that we made because there was also just a greater thing to accomplish, to continue, and Yeah. I think that's a way for people to be able to sleep at night as well. to tell themselves that Kristin: Yeah. andres: okay, ministries are not about specific persons or personalities, you know, and that as long as the ministry hopefully continues to be fruitful, we can forget about the pain heartache that we unfortunately caused. many others, right? And that that's it Kristin: Yeah. andres: to me it's hard to put in a balance. It's very hard to put in a balance and I cannot really decipher what God would feel and think about these things entirely. because I c I can somehow still convince myself that yeah, God can still bless ministries despite having I don't wanna say a body count, I I don't know how else to say it, but because my English can be limited sometimes, but a a list of people that are really disenfranchised and hurt and disappointed that Kristin: Yeah. andres: somehow a new person might come through those doors, come into this ministry, meet th these people and still still feel love and and like there's meaning and like there's The spirit is moving. And what breaks my heart and breaks my brain about all of this is that at the same time you have all these people from the past thinking I really got a bad deal and I have not recovered in many cases. And Kristin: Right. Yeah. andres: what do we do about that? You know, so Kristin: We do nothing, we move on. andres: We move on we move on and yeah, it it's it's to me it's a terrifying friction that th you can have a ministry with you know, a group of people feeling in such a way and a new group of people coming in and and smelling the beautiful roses, you know? I don't know how how to say it. Does that make sense? Kristin: Well, I think that completely. so I I mean, with what you're saying, I a couple of things are coming to mind for me. andres: Mm-hmm. Kristin: The first one is yeah, There is something troubling in that, but I mean the ministry wouldn't survive unless people believed what it was selling, And unless a certain number of people at least were experiencing a form of belonging. I I have a question. I mean, the question for me is I think it's Brene Brown who says the opposite of belonging is not rejection, it's actually fitting in. So there's a difference between belonging and fitting in. And there's, people that can fit in in a ministry, they can, be the chosen ones, be the the golden children, and experience care in a sense. But but I don't know if they're really experiencing belonging. I don't andres: Right. Kristin: know if it's really belonging when you are also treating people with partiality, like scripture says. andres: Yeah. Kristin: you know, I mean, the apostles in the New Testament are constantly saying, Your your partiality is an embarrassment to Jesus and to the gospel. And I think that that that partiality is so much of what we see. Like you're great if you add to the brand. If you add to the thing that andres: Yeah. Kristin: that we are doing. But the moment that you question andres: Yeah. Kristin: what we are doing, all hell starts to break loose. And it's amazing how easy it is to touch a sacred cow without even realizing that you've done it. At least for me. Like, I andres: yeah, my goodness. That's Kristin: mean, for me, it's like the times when all hell has started breaking loose with me in a church is like. I thought I was just asking an innocent question. And apparently, unbeknownst to me, I touched a sacred cow. I andres: Yeah, yeah. Kristin: I hit on something that I wasn't supposed to see or address. andres: Yeah. That happens so often. Kristin: Yeah. And the other thing in what you're saying, I remember so just to clue people in, you went through four iterations of this in Spain. so it wasn't just one time. We kind of semi went through two of them together, but you also had your own really andres: Yeah. Kristin: dreadful borderline abusive situations that you went through. By yourself and then also with your your wife and your family. andres: Mm-hmm. Kristin: and so I think and and I remember one of the conversations during the last one that that you were enduring was who's gonna take responsibility? that the you know, we're just kind of confused and lost. Like, how can such terrible things happen and no one takes responsibility? No one's willing to account for it. No one's even really willing to apologize to us or acknowledge what we've been through. And I'm I'm starting to see that the system is kind of created to do that. It's not just the system of the church, but it's the systems in Western culture, even like I just read a book about how this works in corporations. And right now, in this conversation, I'm linking that to how it works in the church. So corporations and governments. in our modern decadent age have a lot of bureaucrats and there's a lot of paperwork and a lot of pencil pushing. And so that's why, sometimes when you have to call a service center to try to figure something out, like no one, no one can take responsibility for your lost bag, for instance. andres: Well, yeah. Kristin: You know, I've lost bags or had delayed bags on the airlines and it's American is saying call Iberia. Iberia is saying, well that's not our department, you got to call this department. And then they're saying, no, you got to go back to American. And so there's this pinging back and forth because it's a system that is actually designed semi-on purpose to make it hard for you to get justice or find your bag that's been lost. And so I'm just thinking back to the first church that we were in. There andres: Mm-hmm. Kristin: was the system, and people had these roles where no one could or would. Take responsibility. Right. And so there's andres: Mm. Yes, yes. Okay. I know what you mean. I know what you mean. Kristin: like the system, and people are kind of in their slots in this machine that is just going to keep running without anybody really being able to be accountable. to be accountable for holding other people accountable within it. and then there's stories that we tell ourselves within the system. So one of the ones that happened back then, which boy. I I was constantly saying, hey, Matthew 18, Matthew 18, right? So this is where Jesus tells his disciples, if you have an offense against a brother or a sister, bring it to them, just the two of you together. If they won't listen to you, bring a second person. And andres: Yeah. Kristin: then if they if they're still not going to listen, you bring it to the elders, you bring it to the church. I was always saying, hey, Matthew 18 says there's a way to address these things that are happening. And andres: Mm-hmm. Kristin: that that accountability has to happen. And I was telling people at that time, I remember, like, the Matthew 18 is a command, not an option. And they were like, yes, but it doesn't give a timeline. andres: That's sounds. Kristin: Yeah, and here we are. How many years? Seven years later. the timeline is still not complete. andres: Yeah. Kristin: these things should have become a much bigger deal than they did. They should have gone to the church. The whole church. And that never happened. andres: Right. Yeah. Yeah. Kristin: It absolutely never happened. andres: Yeah, it it was Catastrophic. the the Yeah, just like the difficulty in being able to come together and talk about things without without yeah, again, self self sel a sense of entitlement because there were people, founders of of this church that had a certain idea of how things had to be done as well. And yeah. certain concerning things started to happen and and certain people that we know and love started saying things and calling things out, just all hell broke loose and Kristin: People like me. andres: including yourself, it ended up in a terrible church split. as Kristin: Yeah. andres: as it does. Kristin: Well, yeah, and here's the other thing about it is it just it took so long to finally get to that point. I mean, I had left Spain. I I basically I feel like I kind of like lit the match and then left the country and then the pandemic happened. andres: Mm-hmm. Thanks, Kristen. Kristin: yeah, you're you're welcome. It because to me the moment where it really started to go down, I'll just tell this story to give context. you and I and some really cool younger people were leading the youth group and leading worship every andres: Yeah, yep. Kristin: Sunday after it had literally been thrown on us with no no plan because the former worship leader left the country. And but we pulled it together and it was really beautiful. And it was really cool. And we were also really connecting as a team. andres: Mm-hmm. Kristin: And felt like we were in a great position to do great things with the youth and great things in the church. andres: Yeah. Kristin: And then one week we meet for worship practice. And andres: Yeah. Kristin: this man that none that that we barely know, shows up, and is like, I'm leading worship now. And we were like, wait, what? Yeah, yeah, I'm in charge of the worship team. I was sent here by the leadership to help you improve. help help you be bet do better. Yeah, exact exactly. And andres: Yeah, those are those were the words. Yeah. Hello, stranger. Le lead lead us in lead us into the promised land, please. Kristin: Maybe we thought we were better than we were, but we got pretty good andres: Mm-hmm. Kristin: feedback. And I'd say we sounded f pretty dang good. andres: Yeah, I think we we were doing a pretty good job, yeah. Kristin: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And so we're just all in shock. And I don't even remember exactly how it happened, but eventually the leadership team person who had apparently appointed him to come save us andres: Mm-hmm. Kristin: showed up. And okay. And an English person, all right. So I felt like it was my role being the only native English speaker. in the group to go and sort this out. so I go to her and I say, What's going on? Where's this coming from? I didn't even know you had the authority to do this. I really think this is a really bad idea. Here we've been working on this for months and months and months together and you're just coming in and doing this. And I think we need to step so we need to step back and reconsider this. And she basically blew up on me and then accused me of insubordination. That was an interesting, interesting andres: Yeah. Kristin: thing of disrespecting leadership and andres: Yeah. Kristin: of being rebellious, and so on and so forth. Eventually also accused me of being a prosperity gospel preacher, a lot of other things. andres: That is a bit wild. Kristin: Yeah, that one was that that one was that was out of left field. andres: Well, a bit. that is a while. Kristin: Yeah. So anyway, it was just all of a sudden these things started blowing up. And I remember going back and talking to you guys and saying, I have no idea what's going on. This is what's going this is what I've heard. And one of our friends saying, I feel like a beautiful thing just got destroyed. that was Joel who said that. And and it was a prescient, it was prophetic for everything andres: Yeah. Kristin: that would spin out from that, which became really like a year-long ordeal andres: Mm. Kristin: involving pretty much, I mean like half the church. It tore apart, it was part of tearing apart families, it was part of all kinds of wild false accusations against you, against a lot of other people, slander. andres: Wild slander slander. Kristin: libel criminality that began to I mean it was like a domino, you andres: Yeah. Kristin: know, that just it got so out of control. And again, it seemed like no one really wanted to put a stop to it. And there was this like, well, we're just trying to be patient, we're trying to work with this, but meanwhile allowing this to continue on like a weekly or every other day basis, a new issue a new piece of slander against some random person in the church sometimes. like it it was just getting so bizarre. And it went andres: Yeah. Yeah. Kristin: on like that for I don't even know how long. andres: least at least a year. At least a year. If not a year and a half. I think when the f first Kristin: Yeah, over a year. andres: first incidents happened I think it was a year and a half before people left. as you know, as a yeah Kristin: Before the split really happened. andres: Before the split. Before the split. Yeah. yeah, you said J Yoel Yuelito. I mean, yeah, I think about that guy and love that guy. What we were trying to do with the worship team, just for some context, I I we were just all young people. in our twenties. In some cases, I th I think Yuelito maybe he was I don't know how old he was at the time, maybe nineteen, twenty. Yeah, Kristin: Maybe nineteen, yeah. andres: something like that. And something had really captured us as a group, as a youth group. And we were given this opportunity, th this honor to to lead the worship and it was working. in the spirit I th I think it was working. Like very few times or it can work, you know. And I felt like that love that we had for each other and that unity and that true desire to really aim our hearts towards God in the way we practice, in the way that we treated to e treat each treated each other, in the way that we try to help others be in God's presence through the music, through the singing. I don't think I've been a part of something like that so pure, you know. I've seen it before. Yeah I've seen it. It was not the first time. I'm not gonna lie. But it was very special. Kristin: Yeah. andres: Yeah, the w the way these things happened, to d just to to rea to realize that this beautiful thing was kinda like lost in all of that, you know. And thankfully the friendships remained, you know. I think that's a good test of what is a true friendship, what is true fellowship. Kristin: Yeah. But andres: But Kristin: it it ultimately ended in amongst our team, we ended up in four different churches. So that was never a thing again, andres: Yeah. Yeah. We stayed friends, but it was yeah, it was broken. And everybody tried to do the best with what they had after that. And in a very committed, Kristin: Yeah, and andres: faithful way, still. Kristin: And I mean, just to like I'm just just to I'm just now remembering some of how bizarre the fallout got. You know, and they're all there's so many different players involved and different like lines being drawn and and things like that. But you know, one of the people involved, would weirdly show up at events and just like say things to like tear us down, like she did it to you, she did it to Joelito. She did it to me. I mean, you thought she was like trying to break into your house at one point. Like it was really, really bizarre. Like the the stuff was Otherworldly in its bizarrness, inasmuch as at the time. andres: My goodness, but I just like some of these things are coming back, you know, and I'm like, yeah, that happened that hap that happened and you know, but it was so much. It was so much. Kristin: It's it's starting to come back, isn't it? yeah, yeah. Forgot about that part. Because it was so much. It was hap was like so much every week for so long. andres: Yeah. Kristin: And you know, and I and the younger people in the church who really didn't have it's this weird thing, like we didn't have any power to really do anything about it. And we just had to kind of deal with the other the decisions that other people, older people were making. But then weirdly you would talk to those older people and they also didn't feel like they had power to do anything about it, even though from where we were standing, they definitely did. And so in the end, no one did anything significant. andres: I think partly why I think partly why that is is because I think you had to be a certain kind of vicious to win that battle that we all went through. And I think Some of us didn't just have didn't have the stomach to be that vicious, Kristin: I don't know. I just to me it's like nobody had to be vicious. People just had to be willing to tell the truth and stand by it. Well that's what we did. But andres: But that's what we did. And and that's that's what we did, but it it didn't work. It made things worse. The more we try to speak truth, I would say many times in love, in the spirit, really, really going to God, in prayer, getting ready, getting our hearts ready, our minds ready for you know, like a Tuesday afternoon. conversation, it just put more wood to the fire, apparently. Which is which is why I think you are you are describing Christianity as you as you are at the moment with this project with dystopian theology. But yeah, I I do think that There was a certain kind of vicious that you that we you would have had to tap into to eventually kind of like hold control of the situation, but that was not the way to go. You know? Kristin: Well, i I guess from where you and I were standing, but I'm talking about people who did have authority in the church who minimized andres: We who did do that. Kristin: didn't who if they had just told the truth and stood by it, it would have ended much, much sooner. And I'm talking about kind of andres: Yeah. Kristin: I think there's like a system that we're kind of like born into and we come into that makes it so that even the people who do have power don't think they have power or don't think they can. act or that it's more important to you're saying save face or save whatever this thing is that they call the ministry. andres: Yeah. Kristin: and the thing for me was that the people who had the power were not just like saying we have to be patient but they were saying you have to be patient too. and especially you, Andris, to be honest. I I think you were in such an unfair position. you have to keep showing up to these meetings and you have to keep putting up with this for so long. Like not just we're gonna put up with it, but we're gonna make you put up with it. Also. andres: Yeah, I I was a bit ha handstight. I could have probably took a step aside, in all f fairness, you know, but I had a sense of responsibility because yeah, there was something spiritual about it. That me being in the silence I think would have been w worse than than me being involved in all that carnage. Kristin: Yeah. Yeah. andres: Yeah, and I I did get in the advice from my my pastor in Peru to not get involved. I disobeyed disobeyed him. He did not like that. but yeah, I you have to stand for something, you know. something that I I didn't wanna do at the time. I didn't wanna just be on the sidelines. And yeah, I paid a price for it. Kristin: So I mean part of what I'm trying to do is separate the people from the ministry and the systems. And please, please, please, for the love of all things good and holy, separate God from the system. And the the the kind of thing, really the machine. I don't I don't even know if I want to call these things ministries. The machines that function in his name. and I I wonder how this sits with you. Like I I this is something that Uncle Zach has said before. we were in a conversation one time where he was critiquing the Roman Empire and the way that Christianity became part of the Roman Empire. And this other person was saying, Well, but you know, Zach, the The reason that the gospel spread was because of the Roman Empire. And Uncle Zach turned around and said, if the gospel spread, it was in spite of the Roman Empire. Always andres: I love that. Kristin: in spite. And so andres: I love that. Kristin: I take that and I apply it to this situation. That yes, good things were done and beautiful moments happened. And there was healing and there was redemption for people in some of the spaces that we were in for that time. And maybe it's like Paul says, some preach Christ for bad motives, and yet some sometimes God uses that to to meet people in their need. But it's in spite of the bad motives, it's not because of them. And I almost feel like if people continue to experience something good. In these spaces, and undoubtedly some of them do, something that's truly good, not just the fitting in, but something that truly belongs to what's good. It's in spite of the ministry, not because of it. And I just think if we are gonna be people in any way associated with the system, the institution of the church, we need to be honest about that. We need to be honest that very often if there's been a genuine work of God, a genuine place where people have experienced the healing, the kingdom coming, the justice and the righteousness that Jesus is talking about with the kingdom, it's happening a lot of times in spite of us, not because of us. and at least in spite of the system and not because of the system. I think we could point to examples of where that's happened in all the contexts that we were in in Spain. andres: Yeah. That's goes back to what I was saying about putting things in a balance. okay, you see still good happening and and some of these ministries still, from the outside, at least seemingly being blessed and growing. and it is Kristin: Yeah, well yeah. andres: it is a bizarre thing to contemplate. But I think this what you just said kinda like explains it better to my own soul. I don't know if everybody kinda appropriates that idea that you just mentioned, because obviously we cannot speak for everybody, but it does speak to me. That it's in in spite of us and in in spite of our flawed and corrupt systems that beautiful things can happen to people that get together and love each other and are are are one in Christ and are truly seeking together with pure hearts and with no pride. And that's what I think we saw multiple times and yeah, we have we have to obviously I think mention that as well. The amount of good that we also experienced in Spain it was yeah it was abound abundant. Kristin: It wouldn't have hurt so bad if there wasn't those beautiful, precious things to be andres: Yeah, yeah. Kristin: lost. andres: Yeah. Exactly. So yeah. The the the group that we had for many years, our life group there, which I'm not gonna say transcended but survived all those episodes, all those splits and disappointments. I don't know what would have happened with my heart if we didn't have that group. I I think yeah. It's a scary thought. to consider. so the yeah. I I don't think I'm trying to say that all is bad and all is lost and nothing is redeemable. Nothing is precious anymore. That would be a lie. But yeah I I do I do think that it's in spite of us. And that yeah. I don't know how to recover it though. I don't know how to recover it. Kristin: Yeah. andres: And that's that's that's also the the the weird part of all of this because I don't come out of all these incidents and situations with a pa pounding my chest thinking like, Well, I know better now, you know, I'm a stronger man because I've gone through all these things and Kristin: Yeah. andres: I know a better way forward. I I I probably have figured out a better system to do this, you know. I I think Kristin: Right, exactly. andres: I think that was also partly why I went through three different breakups, you know, heartbreaks. Kristin: I'd I'd say three and a half. Yeah. At least. andres: Three and a half, yeah. we c yeah. You can remind me of those 'cause I I sometimes I they all get mixed together. But but yeah, I mean yeah, I I think par part of the reason why it was kinda like a do-over three and a half times was because you I still had hope for a Kristin: Yeah. andres: better system, for a for a new way forward for people who were really grounded in Christ. Maybe this is the the group where it happens, right? And I'm pretty sure that a lot of people go through these things all over the world. Kristin: Yeah. andres: They are still holding hope for okay, the next thing is the next the the best thing. Hopefully, you know, things the grass is greener somewhere else and we can build something actually true, truthful and pure. And many times it just is not the case. And if it's the case for somebody then God bless you, really, really. but yeah, Kristin: Yeah, andres: It rebuilding the system is just Yeah, that's why bother Kristin: Well and then andres: at this point is like why bother? A new a new iteration of Kristin: Yeah. andres: same old, same old, you know? What are you getting Kristin: Right. andres: what are you getting from it? Why what are you giving to it? These are I think valuable questions to ask oneself as every time as as you enter these these places, these fellowships. Is she yeah, you Kristin: Yeah. andres: don't wanna just fit. You don't wanna go aut you don't wanna be automatic, right? We're not automatic. We are real people. I think th these things need to be considered. yeah. Kristin: Yeah. I'm just thinking of the life group and the moment in which we were having really serious discussion about like moving the life group forward to something even more kind of stable and something that would look really, really different. to me that was like the peak of we could actually do something like a much better, much different system, andres: Yeah. Kristin: if you will. and I guess that's my three and a half because that also yeah that andres: Yeah, I was you were saying and I thought, that's that's the one Kristin: one. Yeah that one too because that also unfortunately was the moment when that kind of fell apart began to fall apart as well. Because of that proposal, to do something really, really different andres: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Kristin: and something that also I think could have been beautiful. I mean, I think for me, the stuff with Spain and then all the crazy stuff in the US in between these times, like for me. you know, you I I my thing was just like, am I am I crazy? Was I am I really off base for continuing to dream, for continuing to again like try to rebuild a sense of hope or something that could be done that would be different. you know, where I think God is in it, and then it fails and then it falls apart. that for me was where I lost trust in myself and I had to really ponder what my trust in God was. and in other people. I mean, it's really hard to trust people right now. I mean, I've just been burned and burned and burned and burned and betrayed and failed so many times that it's almost like I anybody could do it next. I mean, people that never thought. And I think a lot of people are in that place of like, I don't even know if I can trust myself anymore, let alone God, other people, or anything else. And you have to kind of somehow make meaning and explain and tell the story of why that keeps happening, especially if it's happened to you multiple times as it has for you and for me. andres: Yeah. Kristin: And I have had to really, really radically reframe the way that I look at hope and the way that I look at purpose and myself and what's going on in the world. I I've had to have an existential crisis every couple of months for three years, during which time I was also not sleeping, having crazy dreams and nightmares, and getting sick every month or two months for two years. and for me it was the pile of stuff that had happened in Spain, the pile of stuff that had happened in Phoenix, and then the horrors of October 7th and following, and what that unleashed in my life and in the city that I live in and in the church here. all kind of like piled together to where, yeah, I mean, I didn't even have the energy to question. things anymore. I was just enduring them. I was just unable to make any kind of sense most of the time. And that is what leads me to abandon the system. andres: Mm-hmm. Kristin: tear it all down, burn all of it. And dude, when I hear you like, yeah, I'm not, you know, I don't I don't even know if I would even call myself a Jesus follower. And yet I still am like, do I have anything good to say because I'm not checking these boxes? it's just so I'm I'm just pointing to that to show how sticky how these things andres: Middle stick, yeah. Kristin: get their claws in us andres: Yeah. Kristin: and have nothing to do with Jesus of Nazareth. andres: Yeah, yeah. Kristin: really. And yet they keep saying, like, well, but this is how you do it. and and and it's it's also just like the irreverence, you know, the irreverence. Like, we're the ones who are gonna make God show up by doing it the right way, by andres: Yeah. Kristin: checking the boxes. Like, what are you talking about? It it it it makes no sense. And then when you see the fruit, you know, that's the other thing. You were saying these ministries still have fruit. I'm like, okay, but What do we mean by fruit? andres: Right, right. Fair question. Kristin: And 'cause a good tree doesn't bear bad fruit is what Jesus says. I think that these are the kinds of things that we need to ask. And again, not just about the church, but about all of our social institutions, and about, you know, the deinstitutionalized spiritualities like New Ageism, which have just as many things going on and just as much of a cult of belonging that happen. And because we want to belong, or at least we want to fit in, we andres: Mm-hmm. Kristin: don't want to lose our place, we end up participating. In these things. And then politics and everything else. once you see it, you don't unsee it. I feel like I see it happening everywhere. And at least for me, this is something I have to grapple with, I think, still every single day. I wanted to be successful in something. I wanted to make an impact. make a difference, all those catchphrases. andres: Yeah. Kristin: and I wanted to prove my worth. And I inherited these systems that gave you the way to do that. andres: Yeah, for sure. Kristin: The way to have an impact, do all those things. And that made you feel like if you didn't do that, or if you didn't do it with them, you weren't really doing it. andres: Yeah. Yeah. Kristin: So they've set the standard for what success means. And you're always measuring yourself and everybody else, judging everybody else by this standard. And so I had to come to a point of like What if failure's not failure? And what if success is not success? So what if, our hopelessness comes from the fact that, we've put our faith, hope, and love in in the wrong things, in things that never deserved to have them? now I look at faith. I I I translate it as loyalty. So in this podcast, I'll be talking a lot about loyalty, hope, and love. Loyalty, hope, and love. Right. So this is where from First Corinthians thirteen, where Paul says everything else is going to pass away. Every other means of measuring status, if you have knowledge, if you have healing, if you have gifts, it's gonna pass away. But andres: Mm-hmm. Kristin: these three three will remain loyalty, hope, and love. And I see these things really as like gifts. That we've been given that we can go and invest in different places. And I think what I realized is that I was taught to put my loyalty, to put my hope, and to put my love in people, yeah, kind of, but really in the system. andres: Yeah, that's true. Yeah. I was thinking as it you said investing these gifts, yeah, if you want to use money jargon, yeah, you know, it does let's let's say you you you you could say it's some sort of currency, you know, were you were doing transactions with this currency within this system which it was rewarded inside that system. And the more blessed you were with those gifts, I don't know if that's proper to say or the the easier it was for you to display those gifts, the more attention you would get from the the decision makers, the stakeholders within within that system, within that church, that ministry. yeah Now that you are out of it or that I'm out of it or you are out you're out of it, how do you use this currency? It just feels like being in a foreign country country that uses a different currency. You know? How do you use loyalty, Kristin: Hmm. Hmm. andres: hope and love in a in a place that seems to be using a different kind of currency? And that's I think Kristin: Hmm. andres: what's happening now. Kristin: yeah, I I start to talk about this a little bit in the renouncing Christianity round of discussions that's that's coming up. but I'm gonna go more into it in the next season where we're gonna start trying to make some clear distinctions here for theology and ethics that I think will be more helpful for everybody that's engaging with these questions, whether you're religious or not. But for now I'll just I say I can give my loyalty, hope, and love to an institution like the church, or to a ministry, or even to an inanimate object like my bicycle right here. I could do that. But those things, that church, that ministry, and this bicycle cannot give loyalty, hope, or love back. Actually. In and of themselves, andres: Yes, yes. yeah. I I read this. Yeah. Kristin: they're they're nothing. The only Things that can give that back are the things that are living, capital L. And the only things that are living with capital L are the things that God has made, not the things that we have made. So other people are living. If I am truly giving my loyalty, hope, and love to my neighbor, that will come back to me some way, somehow, in God's economy. When I give my loyalty, hope, and love. To God. So it's for God and my neighbors what it's for. When I give my loyalty, hope, and love to God, it always comes back to me. And somehow it comes back to me bigger than it left. and and the opposite thing is what happens when people give their loyalty, hope, and love to an institution or to a thing. When church becomes the thing, andres: Yeah. Kristin: and we've already begun to sideline. The people that anything it was supposed to serve in the first place. Now the people are serving the thing, the thing's not serving the people. andres: Yeah, yeah, precisely. Kristin: And we come to value the thing above the people because somehow we believe that it's the thing that gives us what we really need. And now the thing is an idol. andres: Yeah. Yeah. Kristin: The thing is an idol that we sacrifice to for whatever we think it's it's promising us. andres: Yeah. Nobody but wants to be the killer killer of idols and nobody wants to be the church killer. Yeah, nobody wants to be the Christianity Kristin: The Toppler. Right. mean andres: killer, you know. Christians on the other hand, they are s somewhat more expendable. They are in the hands of God. They are gonna be okay. But it's a Kristin: Right. You can sack you can they're dispensable. They're replaceable. The people are replaceable within the system. andres: The people are replaceable because yeah, be because you know, no we're not here to serve ourselves. We are here to serve a higher purpose. And go and God has them, you know, God will protect them and he has a plan for them and a future for them. And I'm saying all these things sarcastically, of course. Kristin: Yeah, yeah. I've been told when I've raised concerns at a church, well, if you don't like it here, you can probably find a church down the road that you'll like better. I am I am so dispensable to this community. andres: Yeah. and sometimes it's not s said so bluntly. And that's that's very hurtful as well. Sometimes it's just implied, sometimes Kristin: Well, yeah, and it is said bluntly sometimes, like you you said it earlier andres: It is, yeah. Kristin: with like the ministry isn't about a personality or seems like you're trying to make this about yourself. andres: Yeah. Kristin: And it should be about the church or the ministry or the thing. and that can sound very holy and it can even sound humble. But it should never be about the church or the ministry or the thing above people. And a lot of times those people being accused of making it about themselves are really just trying to make it about people and trying to raise really, really legitimate concerns. andres: Totally. Kristin: this makes me think of something I also wanted to ask from way earlier because I think it's kind of interesting. One of the first things that you mentioned as being so important is humility. And I I want you to say a little bit more about that, partly because I was actually having a conversation with a Venezuelan friend yesterday. He's a Venezuelan Israeli, actually. And andres: Fun mix. Kristin: that's a topic for a whole episode, that unlikely friendship that we have. But he was he was saying, I don't remember he was trying to tell me a story and he was like, you know, some of these words in English, they just don't, it doesn't really work. andres: Yeah. Kristin: so he was talking about the difference between te amo y te quiero and andres: Yeah. Kristin: how in English you don't really have that and that andres: No. Kristin: makes th it's weird, And and so I've often thought about this word humility because in Spanish I notice, you know, calling someone humilde is like a a a big compliment, especially Mexicans. They love, I mean. When someone's like, I'm gonna introduce you to my friend, he's really humilde. andres: Yeah, yeah. Kristin: and we don't we don't really do that. Like I've never introduced somebody or told somebody about a friend in English and been like, Yeah, I really want you to meet Sam. He's just super humble. So andres: Yeah. I think maybe the the No, go ahead, go ahead. Yeah. Kristin: Well, I think there's a little bit of a nuance of a difference in what the words actually feel like and mean, but also in the cultural values. So I was wondering if you could just speak about that a little bit. What do you think? andres: Yeah. I think there's two connotations, at least where I come from. I don't know if other Latin American countries have this, but humile can be a person who yeah is humble, like the actual English meaning of it. who is not proud, who is not thinking of narcissistic, not thinking of themselves all the time. who doesn't like to boast, right? And then you also have the one you mentioned. the other connotation of Umilde is also just a person it is very hard to explain but it It is a it is a person who does not come from much, you know, and doesn't think much or big of themselves, you know. And not in a negative way, not that they belittle themselves or they feel insecure or b yeah, less, but more like someone who who can come from small beginnings and stays like that, you know, their whole lives. It is a bit difficult to explain, you know, it's not it's not entirely down down to earth. It's not a way to explain it either, you Kristin: Hmm. Yeah, it's at least the no, andres: know. Kristin: no. It's I I'm thinking about it now, the people who've been described to me that way in Latin America, it's not just that they are unassuming, or even you could in a way say down to earth, but it's that a they all kind of also have this like willingness to care about other people more than themselves. they're andres: Yeah, yeah. Kristin: very generous of spirit people, people that very serve other people without seeking attention and are just andres: Yeah. Kristin: consistent, steady there for you, you know, kind andres: Yeah. Yeah. Kristin: of people. andres: That's a great way to put it as well. Yeah. yeah. I don't know what else to add to that. I think that's a perfect explanation for it. Kristin: Yeah. And I I guess I'm just thinking about how that is a strength and andres: Yeah. Kristin: why that kind of ability to think little of yourself but be available, be present. I think that's it. It's like a present being able to be present and attentive to other people. andres: Yeah. But your question is why can that be a strength a strength? How could Kristin: Yeah, just like andres: that be a strength? Kristin: How that is a strength and andres: Yeah. Kristin: maybe even like what's the cultural difference where that's something that I hear people complimenting, you know, it's a compliment to call somebody that. It's it has such a good connotation of just like this is a a person you want around, this is a person you want to know. andres: Yeah. Well, as a in native yeah Spanish speaker, Latin America, I don't know if it happens that much anymore. Even there. You know, I think values are shifting these days, you Kristin: Okay. andres: know. I think it's still present though. I think it's still present. But I think certain people I are able To recognize this trait in others and it's heartwarming. At least that's how it feels to me. It is very heartwarming Kristin: Yeah. andres: to to encounter somebody like that. If if you have the sensitivity for it, 'cause not everybody has. Some people actually see that as actually Kristin: Hm. andres: like an actual weakness and maybe even a a sign of stupidity or low education, you know. or Kristin: Hmm. Yeah. andres: just being behind in life, but it goes again back to the currency topic, you know, what is a what is a useful currency in the world? But how is it a complement in in in in the Latin American culture? I think I think it's because it ha it allows people to to see a a a way of living, a way of behaving, of leading a life that is not self-centered and that is about serving others. and I think also because it displays a certain weakness that I think is godly. You know? That that that weakness related to that verse that's that says, you know, if you wanna gain your life you have to lose it. Kristin: Hm. andres: That's what comes to mind right now, to be honest. I think that's kinda like a Kristin: Yeah. andres: like an actual tangible, palpable human display of that of that yeah. For you to gain you have to lose. For you to live you have to die. You know? Kristin: Hmm. andres: And these people have have grown up maybe through their parents or because they're just wired that way to to, die die these little deaths because they I I probably think that they they see a lot of gain in being loving and not putting themselves first and serv serving others. And I think that's that's Kristin: Yeah. andres: godly. So I think that godliness It's somehow very evident to certain people that are sensitive to this and that's why they might compliment it, you know? I don't know Kristin: Hmm. andres: if that makes sense. Kristin: Yeah. Well, and I guess I'm it's grabbing my attention because that compliment that I've heard people given, if you're gonna be a person who's humilde, you also you're not gonna be a person who's like competitive or fast andres: Yeah. Kristin: paced or like has an agenda. You know, it's not a person who's trying to get ahead. It's a person who has some contentment with themselves andres: Yeah. Kristin: and who therefore is able to help others get ahead and and kind of like see a bigger picture. But you're right, it also does kind of have almost the sense I guess it to me it's kind of like w what Jesus said when he said the meek will inherit the earth, that andres: Yeah, yeah. Kristin: word, like it's a lot of times, you know, it does refer to people who might have grown up in humble circumstances, as we would say, who, andres: Mm. Kristin: might not have a lot of education, sometimes because they didn't see the need to go out andres: Times. Kristin: and grab all that and pursue that. Or they're the type of people who chose instead to stay home and take care of their parents rather than going to university. andres: Yeah. Kristin: and in the eyes of the broader society, you could look at that as a weakness. I'm just thinking about how in the US right now you actually have A lot of church leaders saying, even even going so far as to say empathy is a sin. you know, the what andres: That's near to me. Kristin: is yeah. but a lot of what is being promoted is like beating down your enemies, defeating people, you know, campaigning, gathering support. Pete Heggs is always talking about, you know, he said even things to the effect that. The US deserves the power that we have because we went out and grabbed it. Because we have andres: Mm. Kristin: the greatest capacity for violence. It's like the fact that we have it proves that we deserve it. andres: Yeah. Kristin: and so it's just such a different kind of value that I hear when I hear people being complimented that way. And I don't hear that ever, or hardly ever, as a compliment in the US, to call somebody humble or meek or to be like, wow, they chose not to hustle and instead andres: Yeah. Kristin: to lean into something that was more valuable to them. What a hero. you know, they chose to to work hard and not be appreciated for it because of of being able to serve others. they chose to not be successful or they're just not, but they don't care that they're not. andres: Yeah. Yeah, and the shocking thing about it is like when you go to these people, you actually meet them, the the test, the real test to s to see if usually they're for real, is when they you try to you're trying to gauge if they actually have an agenda behind the the way they are, right? Kristin: Right. Right. andres: and sometimes that's the case. but sometimes it's not. Sometimes they are just real that and they just not entirely realize what they're doing, and that's that's why you it's like shocking to encounter someone like that. That is so unassuming in that in that way. Kristin: Yeah. Yeah. andres: And yeah. Kristin: And there's something in that being unassuming, that's such a good word, that opens up a welcome to other people. Like andres: Yes. Kristin: in in being unassuming, in being humble or humilde, you kind of like have a spaciousness for other people and like a welcome. Like it's these are people I I andres: yeah, yeah. That's a great insight. Kristin: feel like who create peace around them and provide other people with a sense of peace. andres: Yeah. Yeah, definitely I think that's a part of it as well. Yeah. And what brought you to that thought or that question? Kristin: Well, because you were saying humility and I always whenever people start emphasizing humility, which isn't that often in my life, andres: Mm-hmm. Kristin: I immediately think of umilde and like andres: Yeah. Kristin: this feeling that it that's what the translation would be technically, but the word doesn't really have exactly the same feeling or connotation. And so and you know, I this wasn't really what was on my mind, but it just so happens that part of the dystopian theology podcast is learning from cultural diversity, learning especially from cultures where people have survived or resisted imperial systems and power systems, as indeed we have in many places in Latin America. andres: Yeah. Kristin: and there's something about the way that that that we think and imagine that is a resource. has been a resource to the people in our cultures who have done that and who have chosen against the systems of power and chosen to do something else instead. And there's a real sense in which I I think part of why it was like sticking with me too, maybe was like the contrast between people that are like competitive and power grabbing or just so fearful of losing their place in a church or a system. or their sense of belonging or whatever versus these people who there's there is not a word for that in English. There is not a word for what we just unpacked in English. But I think it is andres: Yeah, yeah. Okay. Kristin: a valuable, like now that we're talking about it, it strikes me as a valuable cultural resource to consider and to think about. that just just that concept of and it's it was cool because we've never talked about this before and I'm most andres: No. Kristin: of my experiences are Phoenix, Mexicans, and yet, you know, andres: Yes, yes, yes. Kristin: we we both have the same kind of feeling about what that means when it's said as a compliment and who this kind of group of people are are andres: Yeah. Kristin: and what they're like. andres: That is true. I I knew exactly what you meant when you when you mentioned the compliment aspect of it. Yeah. Why is that a thing in this culture, Spanish speaking culture, or Latin American? Yeah, Kristin: This has been the Dystopian Theology Podcast. Thank you so much for listening. If you would like to read some of our zines and learn more about the art label, The New Real, which helps to produce them, or if you'd like to learn more about recent guests, or simply learn how you can support our work more, you can visit dystopian theology.com. And I don't need to tell you, it's also great if you like, subscribe, or save. Thanks for listening.