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The Watseka Wonder: Did Mary Roff Return from the Dead? · Kat Has Questions: True Crime and Unsolved Mysteries

0:07
Speaker 1: Welcome to Cat Has Questions. Curiosity, stories, and the strange
0:12
Speaker 1: corners of everyday life. A girl is talking to a
0:19
Speaker 1: doctor about an old injury. She remembers the wound. She
0:24
Speaker 1: remembers the scar left. And she starts pulling up her
0:27
Speaker 1: sleeve to show him. Then she stops. According to the
0:31
Speaker 1: doctor's account, she says, quote, Oh, this is not the arm.
0:35
Speaker 1: That one is in the ground. The girl sitting in
0:39
Speaker 1: front of him is Lorenzi Venom, but the person she
0:42
Speaker 1: says she is is Mary Ruff, and she has been
0:46
Speaker 1: dead for 12 years. Mary's parents are still alive. Her
0:51
Speaker 1: sister is still alive, and this girl has started calling
0:55
Speaker 1: them her family. She wants Mary's belongings. She talks about
0:59
Speaker 1: Mary's childhood. She calls Mary sister by the nickname Mary
1:03
Speaker 1: used to call her when she was living. Eventually, Lorenzi's
1:07
Speaker 1: parents let her move into the Roth home. For more
1:10
Speaker 1: than three months, the Roths say they live with their
1:13
Speaker 1: dead daughter again. Meanwhile, Lorenzi's own mother visits the house
1:18
Speaker 1: and finds a girl who can be kind to her,
1:21
Speaker 1: even affectionate toward her, but who no longer recognizes her
1:25
Speaker 1: as her mother. For one family, this is a reunion.
1:30
Speaker 1: For the other, it's a wait, and the girl at
1:34
Speaker 1: the center of it says she can stay only until May. Hello, hello,
1:39
Speaker 1: I'm Kat, and this is Kat Has Questions. Today, we're
1:43
Speaker 1: staying in Illinois for a story that fits very well
1:46
Speaker 1: into our October lineup. We're going to Watsika, Illinois, and
1:51
Speaker 1: we're talking about the Watsika Wonder. If you've heard of
1:55
Speaker 1: this one, you probably know the basic version. A teenage
1:58
Speaker 1: girl supposedly became possessed by a dead girl and moved
2:02
Speaker 1: in with the dead girl's family. Which immediately gives me questions.
2:07
Speaker 1: How did anyone agree to this? What happened inside that
2:11
Speaker 1: house that convinced the family that this was their daughter?
2:14
Speaker 1: And what did the girl's own parents make of being
2:17
Speaker 1: told that someone else was now living in her body?
2:21
Speaker 1: Because there are two girls in this story. Mary Ruff,
2:26
Speaker 1: who died in 1865, and Mary Laurency Venom, who became
2:31
Speaker 1: seriously ill in 1877, about 12 years later. I'll call
2:37
Speaker 1: the second girl Laurency so we can keep the two straight.
2:42
Speaker 1: But it's also kind of odd that they have the
2:44
Speaker 1: same first name, right? Much of the detailed account comes
2:47
Speaker 1: from Dr. E. Winchester-Stevens, a physician who became involved in 1878.
2:54
Speaker 1: He wrote about things he said he witnessed and included
2:57
Speaker 1: letters and information that was supplied by the families. He
3:01
Speaker 1: also believed in spiritualism, which is the belief that the
3:05
Speaker 1: dead could communicate with the living. That matters because he
3:09
Speaker 1: was both participating in these events and trying to explain them.
3:14
Speaker 1: When we follow him into these houses, we're following his
3:17
Speaker 1: account and the testimony he collected. We have descriptions of
3:21
Speaker 1: what people said they saw, sometimes in remarkable detail. Whether
3:26
Speaker 1: those experiences established possession is an entirely separate question. But
3:31
Speaker 1: before we get to Lorenzi, we need to meet Mary.
3:35
Speaker 1: Because when the Roths heard about a sick girl who
3:38
Speaker 1: said she was visiting heaven, they had already spent years
3:42
Speaker 1: trying to understand something frightening happening to their own daughter.
3:46
Speaker 1: So Mary Roth was born on October 8, 1846. in
3:50
Speaker 1: Warren County, Indiana. Her parents were Asa and Ann Roth.
3:56
Speaker 1: The family moved during her childhood, spending time in Illinois
3:59
Speaker 1: and Texas before eventually settling in the community that became
4:03
Speaker 1: part of Watsika, Illinois. According to the family history that
4:08
Speaker 1: Stevens published, Mary's health troubles began when she was about
4:11
Speaker 1: six months old, so she was just a tiny baby.
4:14
Speaker 1: She became ill and had an episode that lasted for hours.
4:18
Speaker 1: For several days afterward, Her parents weren't sure if she
4:22
Speaker 1: would recover from it, but she did. But unfortunately, the
4:25
Speaker 1: episodes returned again. The family describes spells that happened every
4:30
Speaker 1: few weeks, and as Mary grew older, they became more severe.
4:34
Speaker 1: By about 10, she could have several within a few days,
4:37
Speaker 1: followed by a stretch of what seemed like she was
4:40
Speaker 1: well again. The accounts used terms like fits, catalepsy, and insanity.
4:48
Speaker 1: So I'm wondering like if it was some type of seizure,
4:51
Speaker 1: you know, that kind of thing. But those words reflected
4:55
Speaker 1: how people described the condition at the time. We don't
4:58
Speaker 1: have the medical records that we would need to confidently
5:01
Speaker 1: diagnose her today, but the vibes I'm getting is like seizures.
5:05
Speaker 1: What we do have is the family describing reoccurring, frightening
5:09
Speaker 1: changes in their child's health. And Mary had a life
5:12
Speaker 1: between those episodes. She studied music. She sang and played.
5:16
Speaker 1: Her family remembered everything. favorite songs, things she made, and
5:20
Speaker 1: little habits that belonged to her everyday life with her.
5:24
Speaker 1: One song she loved was called We Are Coming, Sister Mary.
5:28
Speaker 1: And keep that in mind because that's going to come
5:30
Speaker 1: back to haunt us later, literally. As she entered her teens,
5:34
Speaker 1: her parents continued seeking treatment. Several physicians examined her, and
5:39
Speaker 1: the family also arranged a stay at a water cure
5:43
Speaker 1: establishment in in Peoria, Illinois, that reportedly lasted 18 months.
5:48
Speaker 1: I had to look up what a water cure establishment was.
5:51
Speaker 1: And in the 1800s, they were like popular health resorts
5:56
Speaker 1: where patients used water treatments and like vegetarian diets, exercises,
6:01
Speaker 1: and fresh air to try to cure chronic illness. So
6:06
Speaker 1: she stayed at the one in Peoria for 18 months.
6:11
Speaker 1: Whatever we eventually make of the Roth's spiritual beliefs, Their
6:14
Speaker 1: account describes parents making sustained efforts to get medical help
6:18
Speaker 1: for their daughter. They were clearly trying to help her.
6:22
Speaker 1: But the efforts had not resolved the problem. In the
6:25
Speaker 1: summer of 1864, Mary was in severe distress. During one episode,
6:31
Speaker 1: she badly injured her arm. And I'm not going to
6:34
Speaker 1: dwell on the details, but the injury matters because it
6:37
Speaker 1: left the mark she would supposedly try to show Stevens
6:40
Speaker 1: years later. Afterward, the family reported something they found extraordinary.
6:47
Speaker 1: Following a period of intense agitation, Mary seemed to enter
6:50
Speaker 1: a different state. They would say she could read, find objects,
6:55
Speaker 1: handle letters, and perform ordinary tasks while her eyes were
6:59
Speaker 1: covered so she couldn't see. And I'm not quite sure
7:02
Speaker 1: what to make of that. But in one story, people
7:06
Speaker 1: mixed their own letters into a box of hers, And
7:09
Speaker 1: Mary reportedly identified the letters that weren't hers and separated
7:12
Speaker 1: them from the rest with her eyes closed. Or covered.
7:16
Speaker 1: A newspaper editor who knew her described another test. He
7:20
Speaker 1: said he took a letter from his pocket, kept it
7:23
Speaker 1: inside its envelope, held it before her covered eyes, and
7:27
Speaker 1: asked her to name the person who had signed it.
7:29
Speaker 1: And he said she answered correctly. Now, we can't, like,
7:34
Speaker 1: reconstruct how covered her eyes were We've all played heads up,
7:37
Speaker 1: seven up, and we're kind of cheating, looking at the floor,
7:39
Speaker 1: you know what I mean? Underneath what we can see.
7:42
Speaker 1: But the Roffs believed they had watched their daughter do
7:45
Speaker 1: things ordinary sight couldn't explain. Those experiences become part of
7:51
Speaker 1: how they remembered Mary. And so did the years of illness.
7:55
Speaker 1: Her episodes continued to worsen, and the account says that
7:58
Speaker 1: her parents were advised to place her in an institution.
8:01
Speaker 1: Mary died in July 1865. when she was just 18
8:06
Speaker 1: years old. And at that point, Lorenzi Venom was a
8:10
Speaker 1: little over a year old. So she was born when
8:14
Speaker 1: Mary was about 17. And Lorenzi's family was living in Iowa.
8:19
Speaker 1: She hadn't grown up alongside Mary. She hadn't known her
8:22
Speaker 1: as a friend. They lived in two totally different states
8:24
Speaker 1: at this point. The Roffs continued with their lives. Mary's
8:29
Speaker 1: sister Minerva married and became Mrs. Alter And the family
8:34
Speaker 1: eventually moved into another house. The Ross house that survives
8:38
Speaker 1: in Watsika was built in 1868 after Mary's death. So
8:42
Speaker 1: it's not the house that Mary lived in. But her
8:46
Speaker 1: possessions remained with the family after her death. So when
8:49
Speaker 1: they moved, they brought all of Mary's stuff with her,
8:51
Speaker 1: even though she was already dead. So the memories came
8:54
Speaker 1: with too. Her music, her illness, the unusual things people
8:58
Speaker 1: believed they had seen. And then 12 years passed. And
9:02
Speaker 1: then another family in Watsika began seeking help for their daughter.
9:06
Speaker 1: We're going to flip the script now and talk about
9:08
Speaker 1: Lorenzi now. So, Mary Lorenzi Venom was born April 16, 1864,
9:15
Speaker 1: near Watsika. Her parents were Thomas and Lorinda Venom, and
9:19
Speaker 1: her family called her Rancy. They spent part of her
9:23
Speaker 1: early childhood in Iowa, and then they returned to Illinois.
9:27
Speaker 1: By the summer of 1877, they were living in Watsika,
9:31
Speaker 1: and Rancy was 13. Stephen's account describes her as generally
9:35
Speaker 1: healthy before that summer, before they moved back to Watsika.
9:40
Speaker 1: There had been ordinary childhood illnesses, but nothing like what
9:43
Speaker 1: the parents were about to face. A few days before
9:46
Speaker 1: July 11th, Lorenzi told them that people had been coming
9:49
Speaker 1: into her bedroom at night. And they called her name, saying,
9:54
Speaker 1: She said she could feel their breath against her face.
9:58
Speaker 1: And that's kind of an unsettling possibility. to be before
10:00
Speaker 1: any of this even begins. You know, before we're talking
10:03
Speaker 1: about Mary Roth, this girl was telling her parents that
10:06
Speaker 1: someone came close enough in the dark for her to
10:07
Speaker 1: feel them breathing on her face. Her mother began sleeping
10:11
Speaker 1: with her after she repeated the story. And then on
10:14
Speaker 1: July 11th, around six in the and her mother mentioned
10:20
Speaker 1: getting supper. Rancy said that she felt bad, she felt strange,
10:24
Speaker 1: kind of like she felt sick. She put a hand
10:28
Speaker 1: against the left side of her chest and collapsed. According
10:31
Speaker 1: to the account, her body became rigid, and she remained
10:35
Speaker 1: that way for about five hours. And then another episode
10:40
Speaker 1: like this followed the next day. This time, while she
10:43
Speaker 1: seemed unaware of the room around her, she spoke about
10:46
Speaker 1: being somewhere else. She said she was in heaven. She
10:51
Speaker 1: described angels and people who had died, including her brother
10:54
Speaker 1: Bertie and her sister Laura. Thomas and Lorinda had already
10:58
Speaker 1: lost those children, unfortunately, before Rancy. Now their living daughter
11:03
Speaker 1: was telling them that she had visited them. Her parents
11:06
Speaker 1: immediately sought medical help. There were periods of improvement, followed
11:10
Speaker 1: by more trouble. In September, she'd seen better than late November.
11:14
Speaker 1: The accounts described that severe abdominal pain. And in December,
11:19
Speaker 1: the trance-like episodes returned. By winter, the family had been
11:23
Speaker 1: dealing with this for months. Rancy could be unresponsive for hours.
11:29
Speaker 1: At other times, the people around her described changes in
11:31
Speaker 1: her behavior and in the identities she claimed. And they
11:36
Speaker 1: weren't getting an answer that brought these episodes to an end.
11:39
Speaker 1: They weren't getting any answers. Relatives begin discussing whether she
11:42
Speaker 1: should be sent to an institution. A minister made inquiries
11:46
Speaker 1: about admission. And her mother was pretty worn down by
11:50
Speaker 1: caring for her. She felt like she had done everything
11:52
Speaker 1: she could for her. The Venoms were reluctant, though, to
11:55
Speaker 1: send their daughter away, but their choices were really narrowing.
11:59
Speaker 1: They had a child who remained ill, a household struggling
12:03
Speaker 1: to care for her, and other people increasingly certain they
12:06
Speaker 1: knew what should happen. One of the people who stepped
12:09
Speaker 1: in was Asa Roth. He and Anne had heard about Rancy,
12:15
Speaker 1: and her experiences reminded them of what they had lived
12:18
Speaker 1: through with Mary when she was sick, and they believed
12:21
Speaker 1: there might be a spiritual explanation. They urged the Venoms
12:25
Speaker 1: to wait. Before sending Rancy away, they wanted someone who
12:29
Speaker 1: shared their understanding to examine her. They recommended Dr. E.
12:34
Speaker 1: Winchester-Stevens from Janesville, Wisconsin. Stevens had spent time in Watsika before,
12:41
Speaker 1: and he shared the Roth's belief in spiritualism. This is
12:44
Speaker 1: who I talked about kind of at the beginning. He
12:46
Speaker 1: would arrive as a physician, but he was already open
12:49
Speaker 1: to the idea that spirits could be involved. On January 31st, 1878,
12:54
Speaker 1: Thomas Venom agreed to the visit, so Rancy's dad. And
12:59
Speaker 1: Asa accompanied the doctor to the house, so that would
13:02
Speaker 1: be Mary's dad. Stevens wrote that he was introduced to
13:06
Speaker 1: the family around 4 o'clock that afternoon. Rancy was sitting
13:10
Speaker 1: near the stove. Her feet were drawn up on a chair,
13:14
Speaker 1: her elbows rested on her knees, and her hands were
13:16
Speaker 1: under her chin. He described her as sullen and hostile.
13:21
Speaker 1: She didn't want him coming closer, she refused to shake hands,
13:24
Speaker 1: and used insulting names for her parents. Then she became
13:28
Speaker 1: more willing to speak with him, and in his account,
13:31
Speaker 1: She said he was a spiritual doctor who would understand her,
13:35
Speaker 1: and he asked for her name. She said she was
13:39
Speaker 1: Katrina Hogan, a 63-year-old woman from Germany. She said she
13:44
Speaker 1: had arrived three days earlier, through the air, and intended
13:47
Speaker 1: to stay for three weeks. But after a while, she
13:51
Speaker 1: changed her explanation. She wasn't Katrina. Her real name was
13:55
Speaker 1: Willie Canning, a young man who had run away from home.
13:59
Speaker 1: gotten into trouble, and eventually died. During the conversation, she
14:04
Speaker 1: also began questioning Stevens. Where did he live? Was he married?
14:08
Speaker 1: How many children did he have? Where had he traveled?
14:12
Speaker 1: She asked him about his habits, his behaviors, his religion.
14:15
Speaker 1: The examination had become a conversation in which the girl
14:18
Speaker 1: was questioning the adults as well. Around half past five
14:22
Speaker 1: that day, Stevens and Asa prepared to leave. Rancy stood,
14:27
Speaker 1: threw up her hands, and fell rigid to the floor.
14:29
Speaker 1: So Stevens stayed. He took her hands and used what
14:33
Speaker 1: he called magnetic action, a practice he understood within the
14:38
Speaker 1: ideas of his time. He said he was then able
14:42
Speaker 1: to communicate with Rancy herself. So basically, he said this
14:47
Speaker 1: magnetic action. I also had to look up what a
14:51
Speaker 1: magnetic action was. And it's the principle that your internal
14:56
Speaker 1: energetic state acts as a magnet, naturally pulling experiences, people,
15:01
Speaker 1: and opportunities toward you without needing to force or chase them.
15:07
Speaker 1: What that means, I'm not sure. So maybe just like
15:11
Speaker 1: being able to bring the best out of people or
15:13
Speaker 1: bring something out of people? I don't really know. It's
15:16
Speaker 1: clearly something to do with his spiritualism, though. So... He
15:21
Speaker 1: used this magnetic action and he said he was able
15:24
Speaker 1: to communicate with Rancy herself. When he did, she spoke
15:28
Speaker 1: sweetly and rationally. And she said she was in heaven.
15:32
Speaker 1: Stevens understood Katrina and Willie as troublesome spirits influencing her.
15:36
Speaker 1: So he thought she was almost like possessed with these
15:38
Speaker 1: other spirits. He asked whether if she had to be controlled,
15:42
Speaker 1: it would be better for a kinder, wiser spirit to
15:44
Speaker 1: take their place. And she agreed. And this is kind
15:47
Speaker 1: of the hinge of the story. Before Mary Roth's name
15:51
Speaker 1: appeared in this conversation, the doctor had proposed that a
15:54
Speaker 1: helpful spirit could take control. Rancy described the spirits around her,
15:59
Speaker 1: so there were more than one. She said there was
16:01
Speaker 1: one the angels wanted to come, and that the spirit
16:04
Speaker 1: wanted to come too, and her name was Mary Roth.
16:08
Speaker 1: Asa was sitting there when she said it, and he
16:10
Speaker 1: immediately identified Mary as his daughter. He said she had
16:14
Speaker 1: been in heaven for 12 years, and he welcomed the
16:17
Speaker 1: idea of her coming. He also told Rancy that Mary
16:21
Speaker 1: was good and intelligent and had experienced conditions like her.
16:26
Speaker 1: According to Stevens, an agreement followed. Mary would replace the
16:30
Speaker 1: troublesome influences and help Rancy recover. The conversation even included
16:35
Speaker 1: a time when Rancy would return from heaven that evening.
16:39
Speaker 1: Stevens said she returned as promised. He believed they had
16:44
Speaker 1: found a way to help her. Asa has also been
16:47
Speaker 1: offered the possibility of contact with his daughter. The next morning,
16:51
Speaker 1: February 1, Thomas Venom went to Asa's office. Rancy had
16:56
Speaker 1: slept well, but now she was insisting that she was
17:00
Speaker 1: Mary Roth. She was homesick. She wanted her parents and
17:03
Speaker 1: her brothers. She wanted to go to the Roths' house.
17:07
Speaker 1: The Venoms tried to explain that she was already home,
17:10
Speaker 1: but she could not be convinced. Their daughter was asking
17:13
Speaker 1: to leave them in return to a family whose child
17:15
Speaker 1: had died when Rancy was a baby. So for about
17:19
Speaker 1: a week, Rancy continued insisting that she belonged to the Roffs,
17:23
Speaker 1: and then was saying Anne Roff and Minerva wanted to
17:25
Speaker 1: see her. According to the account, Rancy was looking out
17:29
Speaker 1: a window when she saw them approaching down the street.
17:32
Speaker 1: Before they reached the house, she recognized them as her
17:34
Speaker 1: mother and her sister, Nervy. And Nervy was the family
17:39
Speaker 1: name Mary had used for Minerva. When they entered, the
17:44
Speaker 1: girl embraced them and cried with joy, and she wanted
17:47
Speaker 1: to go home with them. For the Roffs, this was
17:50
Speaker 1: personal in a way that simply hearing Mary's name had
17:53
Speaker 1: not been. Here was a girl greeting Anne as her mother,
17:58
Speaker 1: reaching for Minerva as her sister, and using a nickname
18:01
Speaker 1: associated with Mary's life. The families at this point had
18:05
Speaker 1: some prior contact. They lived in the same pretty small community.
18:09
Speaker 1: They weren't like complete strangers. But the Roths believed the
18:13
Speaker 1: girls' familiarity went far beyond like an ordinary acquaintance. For
18:18
Speaker 1: the Venoms, the immediate question was how to care for her.
18:22
Speaker 1: They had a sick child who wanted to be somewhere
18:24
Speaker 1: else and another family offering to receive her. They did
18:28
Speaker 1: worry about imposing on Anne... Lorinda knew how exhausting that
18:32
Speaker 1: care could be, especially when she was going through, like,
18:34
Speaker 1: her fifths. But the Roths agreed anyways. On February 11, 1878,
18:41
Speaker 1: Rancy moved into their house. She greeted the family affectionately
18:44
Speaker 1: and called Asa and Anne her parents. When they asked
18:48
Speaker 1: how long she could stay, she said the angels would
18:50
Speaker 1: let her remain until sometime in May. And she would
18:54
Speaker 1: live there until May 21. Three months and ten days.
18:58
Speaker 1: The arrangement attracted criticism, obviously. Stevens recorded a minister warning
19:04
Speaker 1: Thomas that he would wish he had sent his daughter
19:06
Speaker 1: to the institution instead, which I feel like if a
19:09
Speaker 1: minister is saying that, like, they love a good, you know,
19:12
Speaker 1: exorcism type situation, so that's not good if the priest
19:15
Speaker 1: is saying that. Another person predicted that she would cause
19:18
Speaker 1: more trouble when she returned. One relative said they would
19:22
Speaker 1: rather bury a daughter than have her become a spiritualist
19:25
Speaker 1: at the Roths. Stevens was openly angry about those reactions.
19:30
Speaker 1: He believed the Roths were offering compassionate help while other
19:33
Speaker 1: people condemned them. So basically, people were mad, like, this
19:37
Speaker 1: girl needs psychiatric or mental help or maybe even physical help,
19:41
Speaker 1: depending on which trances she was in. They're saying, you're
19:44
Speaker 1: not giving her the help she needs. But inside the house,
19:48
Speaker 1: the family described a much calmer girl. She read, she sang,
19:51
Speaker 1: she helped with household work. She seemed happy and affectionate.
19:56
Speaker 1: Three days after arriving, she asked Asa about his old expression, quote,
20:00
Speaker 1: confound it, and laughed when he understood what she meant.
20:04
Speaker 1: It was a small detail, but this family was looking
20:07
Speaker 1: for the person they remembered in exactly those little kind
20:10
Speaker 1: of details. On February 20th, she wrote Stevens a letter
20:14
Speaker 1: signed Mary Roth. She told them about the household, about
20:19
Speaker 1: Nervy coming home for dinner, Alice Alter would stay overnight,
20:23
Speaker 1: a neighbor had visited and read them a letter. She
20:26
Speaker 1: wanted a picture of the doctor and wished he could
20:28
Speaker 1: spend the evening with them. She sent the family's love.
20:32
Speaker 1: She also mentioned that she had gone to heaven for
20:34
Speaker 1: about an hour. The next day's letter had the same
20:37
Speaker 1: mixture of ordinary news and visits with angels. Frank's store,
20:41
Speaker 1: music for a dance, and the people around her. This
20:45
Speaker 1: identity wasn't appearing only during examination or a gathering of
20:49
Speaker 1: interested visitors. According to the account, she was living as
20:53
Speaker 1: Mary throughout meals, chores, conversations, and correspondence. And meanwhile, the
20:59
Speaker 1: Venoms visited. The girl treated them as people she needed
21:02
Speaker 1: to be introduced to. Over time, she did become fond
21:05
Speaker 1: of them, and she went to see them with Anne.
21:09
Speaker 1: But they were acquaintances. Lorinda could visit her daughter. She
21:12
Speaker 1: could speak with her and receive kindness. But what she
21:16
Speaker 1: couldn't get was the recognition that made the girl her daughter. So, like,
21:19
Speaker 1: Rancy was not interacting with them as though she was
21:23
Speaker 1: her parents. They were, like, nice acquaintances is how she
21:25
Speaker 1: was reacting to her actual own parents. During those weeks,
21:29
Speaker 1: visitors came to meet the girl, and the family reported
21:32
Speaker 1: more recognitions. One visitor was a woman named Mary Wagoner.
21:37
Speaker 1: Mary Roth had known her earlier as Mary Lord, so
21:41
Speaker 1: Rancy reportedly embraced this other Mary, called her by that
21:45
Speaker 1: of her earlier name, so called her Mary Lord, and
21:48
Speaker 1: commented on how little she had changed. This woman also
21:52
Speaker 1: lived near the Venoms. The striking part of the claim
21:55
Speaker 1: was that the older name in the relationship associated with
21:59
Speaker 1: Mary's life. Another visitor was Mrs. Parker. So the girl
22:05
Speaker 1: greeted her as Auntie Parker and brought up visits that
22:08
Speaker 1: Mary and Minerva had made when they were little. So
22:10
Speaker 1: like before Mary had died, obviously, including times that they
22:14
Speaker 1: had sang Mary Had a Little Lamb. According to Stevens, Mrs.
22:18
Speaker 1: Parker said no one had mentioned that memory to her first.
22:21
Speaker 1: So there are these claims that she was coming up
22:25
Speaker 1: with these memories and ideas that had not been previously
22:30
Speaker 1: mentioned to Rancy where she could have like, you know,
22:34
Speaker 1: pretended like she knew or, like, used her subconscious or
22:36
Speaker 1: whatever to pull it out. Asa asked about the family's
22:39
Speaker 1: journey to Texas in 1857. The girl reportedly remembered crossing
22:44
Speaker 1: the Red River and named children from another family who
22:47
Speaker 1: had traveled with them. That journey happened seven years before
22:51
Speaker 1: Rancy was even born. The Roths believed that these were
22:55
Speaker 1: Mary's memories. Late in March, Asa arranged an encounter with
23:00
Speaker 1: one of her belongings. Mary had owned a velvet headdress,
23:04
Speaker 1: and he asked Anne to place it where the girl
23:06
Speaker 1: would see it when she came back inside. They kind
23:10
Speaker 1: of just wanted to watch her response to this headdress.
23:13
Speaker 1: According to the account, she recognized it and said she
23:16
Speaker 1: had worn it when her hair was short. And then
23:19
Speaker 1: she asked for her box of letters. Anne brought the box.
23:24
Speaker 1: The girl went through it and identified a lace collar
23:27
Speaker 1: as something she had made herself. the Roths said that
23:30
Speaker 1: Mary had made it before Rancy was even born. People,
23:34
Speaker 1: family trips, childhood songs, belongings that had been stored away
23:38
Speaker 1: for years. The family saw a pattern. Each familiar detail
23:43
Speaker 1: made the next encounter feel less like a coincidence. And
23:47
Speaker 1: some of the stories went beyond recognizing what Mary had
23:49
Speaker 1: left behind. And so the surviving accounts of this doesn't
23:53
Speaker 1: give like clear dates, exact dates for all of these incidents,
23:56
Speaker 1: but it places them during the time She was staying
24:00
Speaker 1: with the Roths. And one of these was the conversation
24:04
Speaker 1: from the opening. Stephen said the girl began talking about
24:07
Speaker 1: Mary's old arm injury. She asked whether he had seen
24:11
Speaker 1: the mark, and he hadn't. She began lifting her sleeve
24:13
Speaker 1: and then stopped and said, oh, this is not the arm.
24:17
Speaker 1: That one is in the ground. And then she went
24:19
Speaker 1: on to discuss Mary's burial and the people who had
24:22
Speaker 1: been there. Keep in mind, Rancy would have been like one,
24:25
Speaker 1: like I said, when Mary died. Stevens believed he was
24:29
Speaker 1: hearing Mary remember an injury to the body she had
24:31
Speaker 1: left behind. And that is a particularly eerie part of
24:34
Speaker 1: the account. A girl going to show someone a scar
24:37
Speaker 1: and then being like, oops, nope, that's in my other arm,
24:39
Speaker 1: that's buried in the ground. Another incident involved Frank Roth.
24:45
Speaker 1: One afternoon, the girl warned that Frank would become seriously
24:47
Speaker 1: ill that night and needed to be watched. According to Stevens,
24:51
Speaker 1: Frank was well at the time and busy with the
24:54
Speaker 1: family's musical activities. Stevens happened to be visiting Watsika, and
24:59
Speaker 1: the family understood that he planned to spend the night
25:01
Speaker 1: in another part of the town. But his plans changed.
25:05
Speaker 1: He stayed with the Marsh family, who are right next
25:08
Speaker 1: door to the Roffs. He said that the Roffs did
25:11
Speaker 1: not know that he had a change of plans on
25:13
Speaker 1: where he was staying, and around 2 in the morning,
25:15
Speaker 1: Frank became ill. The girl told Asa to get Stevens
25:19
Speaker 1: from the Marsh house. The family objected, saying, you know, oh, nope,
25:22
Speaker 1: he's not staying there. He's across town. But she insisted
25:25
Speaker 1: he was next door and urged them to go quickly.
25:28
Speaker 1: Asa went, and Stevens was there. The doctor came to help,
25:32
Speaker 1: and he described the girl assisting with Frank's care, preparing
25:35
Speaker 1: what was needed and cooperating with his advice. For Stevens,
25:39
Speaker 1: this supported a claim beyond memories of Mary. He believed
25:43
Speaker 1: she had predicted an illness and located him without being
25:46
Speaker 1: told where he was. The family also described her speaking
25:50
Speaker 1: about visits to heaven. Sometimes she entered what they called
25:54
Speaker 1: a trance, and afterward she had been with people who
25:57
Speaker 1: had died. One scene involved Minerva, who had recently lost
26:02
Speaker 1: a baby, tragically. Stevens described the girl and another young
26:07
Speaker 1: woman seeming to share a heavenly vision. Minerva was present
26:12
Speaker 1: as they talked about what they saw. The girl moved
26:15
Speaker 1: as though she was receiving a tiny infant into her
26:18
Speaker 1: arms and she said it was Nervy's baby. The other
26:22
Speaker 1: young woman responded as though she could see the child too. Eventually,
26:27
Speaker 1: they described returning the baby to the angels. And Minerva
26:31
Speaker 1: had lost her sister and then her child. So they
26:35
Speaker 1: were believing that that sister she had lost was now
26:39
Speaker 1: holding her baby in heaven. You can see why the
26:42
Speaker 1: family's investment in these experiences went so far beyond curiosity.
26:47
Speaker 1: They believed they were learning that people they loved still existed,
26:51
Speaker 1: still knew them, and were together somewhere that they couldn't go.
26:55
Speaker 1: And Stevens had had losses of his own. And also,
26:58
Speaker 1: it's like the 1800s, so I feel like, no offense,
27:00
Speaker 1: but like everyone kind of had losses. It's like, people
27:04
Speaker 1: weren't living too long. But, Rancy spoke about deceased members
27:09
Speaker 1: of his family, including his daughter, Emma Angelia. At one point,
27:13
Speaker 1: the adults discussed whether Emma could take control of Rancy's
27:16
Speaker 1: body for a week and travel with Stevens to Wisconsin
27:19
Speaker 1: to visit his family. So now they're just like using
27:22
Speaker 1: Rancy's body where they think it's like, oh, we'll just
27:24
Speaker 1: put a different spirit in here and let her go
27:26
Speaker 1: say hi to everybody. But that trip did not happen
27:30
Speaker 1: because the family did not think it was advisable, which
27:32
Speaker 1: is probably good. But consider how far that conversation had moved.
27:38
Speaker 1: A few months earlier, the Venoms were trying to find
27:40
Speaker 1: care for a sick child. Now adults were discussing whether
27:43
Speaker 1: another dead daughter could use her body to travel to
27:46
Speaker 1: another household. The spiritual explanation was shaping decisions about this
27:51
Speaker 1: living girl's life. By April, the Roths said Rancy's health
27:55
Speaker 1: was improving. She was eating and sleeping more and was
27:59
Speaker 1: kind of participating normally in household life. In their understanding,
28:04
Speaker 1: Mary was caring for her until she was ready to return.
28:07
Speaker 1: On April 16th, Rancy turned 14. In a letter dated
28:11
Speaker 1: that date, Minerva described a moment when the girl repeatedly
28:14
Speaker 1: hugged and kissed Asa and Anne. When they asked why
28:18
Speaker 1: she was being so affectionate, she explained that she wanted
28:20
Speaker 1: to kiss them while she still had lips to do it.
28:23
Speaker 1: She wanted to hug them while she still had arms. Soon,
28:26
Speaker 1: she said she would return to heaven. They wouldn't always
28:29
Speaker 1: know when she was near them. And the family had
28:33
Speaker 1: been told from the beginning that she could only stay
28:35
Speaker 1: until May. And now May was approaching. They had already
28:39
Speaker 1: buried Mary once, and they believed this second chance with
28:43
Speaker 1: her was temporary. And the farewell was already beginning. Five
28:48
Speaker 1: days later, on April 21st, Stevens described a gathering at
28:51
Speaker 1: the house with family, visitors, and another physician, Dr. Steele.
28:57
Speaker 1: What followed was one of the strangest... accounts in this
29:01
Speaker 1: entire story. So, Dr. Stevens said that Dr. Steele entered
29:06
Speaker 1: a trance and spoke as a spirit associated with someone present. Later,
29:12
Speaker 1: according to Stevens' interpretation, Mary left Rancy's body and began
29:17
Speaker 1: speaking through Dr. Steele. Rancy's body became limp, leaning against
29:22
Speaker 1: the person beside her. Steele spoke in a manner that
29:26
Speaker 1: the group understood as Mary and joked about the body
29:29
Speaker 1: she had left behind. The people in that room believed
29:32
Speaker 1: they were watching a spirit move between bodies. Then, the
29:37
Speaker 1: girl left the room with Charlotte. a woman who worked
29:41
Speaker 1: in the household. When she returned, she was wearing old-fashioned clothes,
29:47
Speaker 1: a cap, and spectacles. She claimed to be Charlotte's grandmother.
29:53
Speaker 1: And Stephen said she used the grandmother's name, asked about relatives,
29:57
Speaker 1: described the illness from which she had died, and requested knitting.
30:02
Speaker 1: She criticized the work and continued knitting while she spoke.
30:06
Speaker 1: And he said this went on for about an hour.
30:08
Speaker 1: And there is a gap in that account that we'll
30:12
Speaker 1: have to come back to that Rancy had left with
30:16
Speaker 1: someone who knew the person she was about to portray.
30:19
Speaker 1: So we aren't given like a complete account of what
30:21
Speaker 1: happened between their departure and their return. But Stevens, of course,
30:25
Speaker 1: understood it as another spiritual visiting through her. By now,
30:29
Speaker 1: the reported experiences included visions, predictions, several identities, and the
30:34
Speaker 1: possibility of a spirit just moving from one person to another.
30:38
Speaker 1: For Rancy's parents, the most urgent question was simpler. When
30:42
Speaker 1: would their daughter come back to them? On May 6th,
30:46
Speaker 1: Asa was at his office and Frank was nearby. The
30:49
Speaker 1: girl came in, put an arm around Asa's neck, kissed him,
30:52
Speaker 1: and called him Pa. She said she was going to
30:55
Speaker 1: spend the day with Mrs. Venom. Asa looked around. and
30:59
Speaker 1: Lorinda Venom was standing in the doorway. She had watched
31:02
Speaker 1: her daughter embrace another man as her father and refer
31:05
Speaker 1: to her own mother as Mrs. Venom. Asa wrote that
31:09
Speaker 1: his heart ached for Lorinda. He also thought she was
31:13
Speaker 1: doing better than she had during the worst months of
31:16
Speaker 1: Ransi's illness. And that is a difficult position for Lorinda
31:19
Speaker 1: to be in. The Roths were caring for her child,
31:22
Speaker 1: and her daughter seemed healthier. But the improvement came with
31:26
Speaker 1: the cost that the girl who recognized another woman as
31:29
Speaker 1: her mother. The next day, May 7th, the girl asked
31:33
Speaker 1: Ann to come into a private room. She was crying.
31:37
Speaker 1: She said Rancy was coming back, and she didn't know
31:39
Speaker 1: whether the return would be permanent. Then she sat down
31:42
Speaker 1: and closed her eyes. According to the account, her manner changed,
31:47
Speaker 1: and she looked around anxiously. She said, where am I?
31:51
Speaker 1: I was never here before, and she wanted to go home.
31:54
Speaker 1: Anne explained that she was at the Roth house and
31:57
Speaker 1: that Mary had brought her there to get well. Could
32:00
Speaker 1: she wait while someone sent for her family? But Rancy
32:02
Speaker 1: said no. And so then she was asked about pain
32:06
Speaker 1: in her chest, but she said she wasn't in pain.
32:09
Speaker 1: Even if Mary had been. For about five minutes, the
32:12
Speaker 1: account says she was rancy again. She was confused by
32:16
Speaker 1: the house that Mary had been calling home and was
32:18
Speaker 1: eager to leave. But then the Mary identity returned again.
32:22
Speaker 1: So she's flip-flopping here. This girl was happy to be
32:25
Speaker 1: at the Roths again. She asked for We Are Coming
32:28
Speaker 1: Sister Mary, that song that Mary had loved during her lifetime,
32:32
Speaker 1: and had heard Rancy ask her to go home. But
32:35
Speaker 1: before anyone could arrange that homecoming, the girl was calling
32:38
Speaker 1: this house home again. So she was like in and
32:41
Speaker 1: out of these personalities. The families described two identities with
32:47
Speaker 1: different relationships to the same surroundings. One knew the house
32:50
Speaker 1: and the people inside it. The other wanted her own parents.
32:54
Speaker 1: And then, on May 19th, Rancy's brother Henry was visiting.
32:59
Speaker 1: The account says Rancy returned again. Henry was brought into
33:02
Speaker 1: the room, and she embraced him, kissed him, and cried.
33:05
Speaker 1: She knew her brother, and she wanted her parents. Asa
33:08
Speaker 1: asked whether she could stay long enough for Henry to
33:10
Speaker 1: get their mother. She said she couldn't, but promised she
33:13
Speaker 1: would return to speak with her. And then Mary popped
33:16
Speaker 1: back in while they waited. Within an hour, Lorinda arrived.
33:20
Speaker 1: And then according to the account, Rancy appeared again. Mother
33:24
Speaker 1: and daughter embraced. The people around them were crying too.
33:27
Speaker 1: And then after months of visits in which she had
33:29
Speaker 1: been treated as an acquaintance, Lorinda was being recognized by
33:32
Speaker 1: her daughter. Two days later, the long stay ended. May 21st, 1878,
33:38
Speaker 1: Asa said Mary had announced... that she would leave that
33:44
Speaker 1: morning around 11 and that Rancy would go home well.
33:49
Speaker 1: The evening before, she had hugged and kissed the Roths
33:51
Speaker 1: and cried over leaving them. She asked that Rancy receive
33:55
Speaker 1: the little things she had accumulated during the stay, pictures, marbles, cards,
34:00
Speaker 1: and money Lorinda had given her. She asked the Roths
34:03
Speaker 1: to visit Rancy often. In the family's understanding, Mary was
34:07
Speaker 1: making arrangements for the girl whose life would resume after
34:10
Speaker 1: she left. That morning, the girl said goodbye to neighbors.
34:14
Speaker 1: She thanked people for the kindness she believed had helped
34:17
Speaker 1: Rancy recover. There was singing and prayer. One neighbor asked
34:22
Speaker 1: whether an angel among them could carry a message to
34:24
Speaker 1: his own dead loved ones. The gathering had become a
34:26
Speaker 1: farewell to someone they believed was leaving the living world.
34:30
Speaker 1: Minerva came to walk the girl to Asa's office. He
34:33
Speaker 1: would take her the rest of the way home. At
34:36
Speaker 1: the house, the girl seemed reluctant to leave. Minerva asked
34:39
Speaker 1: whether she could let Rancy return. and she agreed. She
34:43
Speaker 1: kissed her mother and her sister goodbye. Then, according to
34:47
Speaker 1: the account, she was once again Rancy. Rancy turned to
34:51
Speaker 1: Minerva and asked where they were going, and almost immediately
34:54
Speaker 1: she said she knew because Mary had told her. On
34:58
Speaker 1: the walk, they passed neighbors who'd become familiar during the stay,
35:01
Speaker 1: and Rancy did not respond to them the way Mary
35:03
Speaker 1: would have. Although she said Mary cared about them, she
35:07
Speaker 1: personally didn't, quote, know them. So she was nice to them,
35:10
Speaker 1: of course, but it wasn't like people she knew. Then
35:13
Speaker 1: she offered to let Mary speak with Minerva for part
35:16
Speaker 1: of the walk. The family said the change happened again.
35:20
Speaker 1: Minerva had a little more time with the person she
35:22
Speaker 1: believed was her sister, walking beside her toward the place
35:25
Speaker 1: where their visit would end. By the time they reached
35:28
Speaker 1: the office, the girl was rancy. She called Asa Mr. Roth,
35:33
Speaker 1: and she wanted him to take her home, and he did.
35:36
Speaker 1: In a letter written the following day, Asa described her
35:39
Speaker 1: greeting her parents and brother with hugs, kisses, and tears.
35:42
Speaker 1: She held her father around his neck for a long time,
35:46
Speaker 1: and he asked her how things seemed to her. She
35:48
Speaker 1: said it seemed like a dream. For the Venoms, their
35:51
Speaker 1: daughter was home and seemed well. For the Roths, the
35:54
Speaker 1: visit they believed they had received from Mary had ended.
35:57
Speaker 1: The same walk had taken one girl home and carried
36:00
Speaker 1: another away. If the story ended there, it would have
36:04
Speaker 1: a very clear shape. Mary arrived, helped Rancy recover, and
36:08
Speaker 1: left when she had promised. But the accounts describe more
36:12
Speaker 1: encounters afterward. On June 2nd, Stephen saw Rancy with her
36:16
Speaker 1: parents at a friend's house. Her father introduced her to him.
36:20
Speaker 1: Stephen said she behaved like a shy child meeting a
36:22
Speaker 1: stranger and continued that way for about two hours. This
36:27
Speaker 1: was that doctor that she had written like affectionate letters
36:30
Speaker 1: to as Mary saying she wished he would come over.
36:33
Speaker 1: Now he was saying she acted like she didn't know
36:34
Speaker 1: who he was. The next day, he went to an
36:37
Speaker 1: attorney's house without announcing his visit in advance. As he
36:40
Speaker 1: entered the gate, Rancy came out and greeted him as doctor.
36:44
Speaker 1: She said Mary Roth had told her to come there
36:46
Speaker 1: and meet him. In Stephen's account, she delivered a message
36:50
Speaker 1: from Mary and said Mary had made her understand that
36:53
Speaker 1: he was a kind friend. So May 21st had ended
36:57
Speaker 1: that long stay at their house, but claims of contact continued.
37:02
Speaker 1: In July, Lorinda wrote that her daughter was well and
37:04
Speaker 1: behaving naturally. She credited Stevens and the Roths with her recovery.
37:10
Speaker 1: She believed that without the change in care, Rancy might
37:13
Speaker 1: have died or been sent away. She also doubted she
37:16
Speaker 1: could have continued carrying the burden much longer on her own.
37:20
Speaker 1: The Venoms finally came to accept a spiritual explanation, and
37:25
Speaker 1: you can understand why they felt indebted to the people
37:27
Speaker 1: who had helped. Their daughter had been seriously ill, and
37:31
Speaker 1: they had been facing this separation that they didn't want,
37:34
Speaker 1: and now she was home and apparently improved. Stephen's narrative
37:39
Speaker 1: circulated in the Religio-Philosophical Journal in 1878 and appeared in
37:46
Speaker 1: later book editions. The story reached people beyond Watsika. Some
37:51
Speaker 1: supported it, others accused the witnesses of invention or exaggeration,
37:57
Speaker 1: also defended his reputation, and other people vouched for his
38:00
Speaker 1: honesty and standing in the community. The question of whether
38:04
Speaker 1: he was trustworthy became part of the debate over whether
38:08
Speaker 1: Mary had returned. Rancy, meanwhile, continued growing up. She married
38:13
Speaker 1: George Binning in 1882, and they moved to Kansas in 1884,
38:19
Speaker 1: and she became a mother. In December 1886, Asa supplied
38:23
Speaker 1: an update. He said her painful episodes hadn't returned and
38:27
Speaker 1: that she had remained healthy. He also described... Mary taking
38:31
Speaker 1: control during later encounters with the Roth family before and
38:36
Speaker 1: after Rancy's marriage, through the period before her move west.
38:42
Speaker 1: He said her husband wasn't familiar with spiritualism and that
38:46
Speaker 1: household responsibilities and caring for her children made the mediumship
38:51
Speaker 1: more difficult. So to Asa, the right circumstances helped Mary communicate.
38:58
Speaker 1: Asa also described her first childbirth He said she entered
39:02
Speaker 1: a trance and showed no pain. And afterward, she attributed
39:05
Speaker 1: her protection from suffering to an angel. And that was
39:09
Speaker 1: another experience the family understood as spiritual. And then people
39:14
Speaker 1: really obviously wanted to start investigating this. So in 1890,
39:19
Speaker 1: Richard Hodgson visited Watsika and interviewed surviving witnesses. Hodgson was
39:25
Speaker 1: a researcher, and his interest brought attention to the case
39:28
Speaker 1: beyond Stevens' original account. But 12 years had passed. Stevens
39:33
Speaker 1: had died. Rancy was living elsewhere. Hodgson spoke with the Roths, Minerva,
39:38
Speaker 1: and neighbors about what they remembered. Henry Addington Bruce later
39:43
Speaker 1: described Hodgson's inquiry and reported that he had found their
39:45
Speaker 1: testimony persuasive and favored a spiritual explanation. So this case
39:51
Speaker 1: did receive further investigation after it was over. It wasn't
39:55
Speaker 1: just like, oh, hey, okay, she's good now, and she
39:56
Speaker 1: moved on, so we're all good with this. It was
39:59
Speaker 1: an investigation of surviving testimony, though. Hodgson hadn't been present
40:03
Speaker 1: as the original examination or during the stay. William James
40:08
Speaker 1: also discussed the case in The Principles of Psychology, published
40:11
Speaker 1: in 1890. He placed it within a discussion of changes
40:14
Speaker 1: in personality and experiences described as possession. That tells us
40:19
Speaker 1: the Watsika story entered a serious conversation about identity and consciousness.
40:25
Speaker 1: James was discussing the reported events rather than contributing a
40:28
Speaker 1: new set of observations from the house. And other writers
40:32
Speaker 1: reached different conclusions. In 1903, psychologist Frank Sargent Hoffman argued
40:38
Speaker 1: that the evidence didn't establish knowledge that Rancy couldn't have
40:42
Speaker 1: obtained from ordinary means. Meaning maybe she got this information
40:46
Speaker 1: from the family. She was being fed information. She was
40:48
Speaker 1: subconsciously learning information and talking about it. And he emphasized
40:53
Speaker 1: the Roth's family encouragement of Mary's identity. So she was
40:58
Speaker 1: getting this positive reinforcement from acting like Mary. That's his theory.
41:02
Speaker 1: So he's saying she's going to continue doing that and
41:05
Speaker 1: trying to make them happy. He also raised a question
41:09
Speaker 1: that gets lost easily in a story like this. We
41:12
Speaker 1: hear about all these successful recognitions of things and nicknames
41:16
Speaker 1: and stories, but what about the mistakes? What if the
41:20
Speaker 1: girl offered other names, memories, or details that didn't fit?
41:24
Speaker 1: We aren't given a record of every answer she offered.
41:28
Speaker 1: We only have these examples that witnesses remembered because they
41:30
Speaker 1: were remarkable to them. His explanation also entertained telepathy, so
41:35
Speaker 1: we're still not just like fully going science here, but
41:39
Speaker 1: he wasn't approaching this with the exact same assumptions as
41:42
Speaker 1: a modern skeptical investigator would. So even using like that
41:46
Speaker 1: headdress for an example, the family said Rancy was outside
41:50
Speaker 1: when they placed it where she would encounter it. But
41:53
Speaker 1: could she have seen it before? Had someone mentioned it
41:56
Speaker 1: to her before? What had been said about Mary's clothes
41:59
Speaker 1: during preceding weeks? Are you telling me they never talked
42:01
Speaker 1: about Mary or anything she liked when she wasn't around?
42:04
Speaker 1: That sort of thing. Minerva's 1908 reminiscence included two particularly
42:10
Speaker 1: memorable stories. But keep in mind, 1908 would have been,
42:13
Speaker 1: you know, years later. In one, the girl recognized Mary's
42:17
Speaker 1: piano in its cover. She tried to play, but complained
42:20
Speaker 1: that the fingers weren't working as she wanted. In another,
42:23
Speaker 1: she brought up a childhood incident involving Mary, a cousin,
42:27
Speaker 1: and an old hen they found under a bush. The
42:30
Speaker 1: children had tried to treat the hen's sore eye. Minerva
42:34
Speaker 1: had said she forgot that incident until the girl mentioned it.
42:37
Speaker 1: And those are striking claims. But they also were written
42:42
Speaker 1: down 30 years after she had stayed in their house.
42:46
Speaker 1: That doesn't make them worthless, but it makes the time
42:50
Speaker 1: between the event and the recollection part of what we
42:52
Speaker 1: have to consider. And then there's the part of the
42:55
Speaker 1: case that mattered most immediately to the Venoms that their
42:58
Speaker 1: daughter got better. They reported that her painful episode stopped
43:02
Speaker 1: and that she returned to ordinary life. That improvement deserves
43:05
Speaker 1: to be taken seriously. But the move changed several things
43:10
Speaker 1: at once. Her surroundings changed. Her caregivers changed. The adults'
43:14
Speaker 1: responses to her experience changed. And the record doesn't let
43:18
Speaker 1: us isolate which of those changes could have helped or
43:22
Speaker 1: what other factors could have contributed. So for all the
43:25
Speaker 1: attention paid to Mary, Rancy is the person I keep
43:27
Speaker 1: coming back to. She was 13 when these frightening experiences began.
43:32
Speaker 1: And adults were discussing whether to send her away. A
43:35
Speaker 1: physician asked whether a spirit could take control of her.
43:38
Speaker 1: And another family offered her a home. And the identity
43:41
Speaker 1: she presented shaped how the people around her responded. As Mary,
43:45
Speaker 1: she wanted the Roughs. During the brief returns described as rancid,
43:49
Speaker 1: she wanted to go to her own family. She wanted
43:51
Speaker 1: to go home. And the Roughs were trying to explain
43:54
Speaker 1: her through a loss that had shaped their family for
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Speaker 1: 12 years. And grief preserves ordinary things. The way someone
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Speaker 1: calls your name, a song that they always liked, maybe
44:03
Speaker 1: a small joke that doesn't mean anything to anybody outside
44:05
Speaker 1: the family. So, on May 21st, according to the accounts,
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Speaker 1: Rancy went home, held her father around the neck, and
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Speaker 1: said it seemed like a dream. The Roffs believed they'd
44:17
Speaker 1: received a visit from Mary, and the Venoms believed their
44:20
Speaker 1: daughter had been restored. Later, investigators tried to explain what
44:24
Speaker 1: had happened. But the surviving records give us a remarkable
44:28
Speaker 1: set of claims and a very human account of why
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Speaker 1: people believed them. It leaves us with a question that
44:35
Speaker 1: reaches beyond whether a ghost entered a house in Watsika, Illinois.
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Speaker 1: Do you believe that Mary was reincarnated through Rancy? Or
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Speaker 1: do we think there's a more medical explanation for it?
44:46
Speaker 1: I'd love to hear which parts of the story that
44:49
Speaker 1: stuck with you or what you really think. You can
44:52
Speaker 1: send me a message or bring me your thoughts on
44:54
Speaker 1: social media, email, however you want to get a hold
44:57
Speaker 1: of me. And if you know anybody who loves strange
45:00
Speaker 1: Illinois stories, send them my way. I'm Kat and this
45:04
Speaker 1: has been Kat Has Questions. Until next time, stay curious.
45:12
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to Cat Has Questions. If you liked
45:15
Speaker 1: this episode, follow the show and share it with someone
45:17
Speaker 1: who loves a good spiral. See you next week.