Latest / Future Christian / Safeguarding the Church: Integrity, Healing, and Hope - Insights from Lisa Compton and Taylor Patterson

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Safeguarding the Church: Integrity, Healing, and Hope - Insights from Lisa Compton and Taylor Patterson · Future Christian

0:07
>> Paul: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Your
0:10
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in
0:13
the 21st century. At the Future Christian
0:16
Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors
0:19
and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical
0:21
wisdom to help you and your community of faith
0:24
walk boldly into the future. Whether
0:27
you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member
0:30
of your faith community, this podcast is
0:33
designed to challenge, inspire and equip
0:36
you with the tools you need for impactful ministry.
0:39
And now for a little bit about the guest for this episode.
0:44
>> Martha Tatarnic: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today,
0:47
Loren Richmond Jr. Is in conversation with
0:49
Taylor Patterson and Dr. Lisa Compton.
0:53
Taylor is an instructor in the Counseling Department at
0:56
Regent University. She worked for several years
0:59
as a mental health counselor at a nonprofit
1:01
agency serving survivors of dementia, domestic violence,
1:05
sexual assault and human trafficking
1:07
and now sees clients in private practice
1:10
specializing in adults with a history of
1:13
childhood trauma. She served as co
1:15
editor for Safeguarding A
1:18
Guide to Preventing Abuse and Fostering Healing in the
1:21
Church, a textbook for seminaries, parachurch
1:24
ministries and local churches, and is
1:27
published in peer reviewed journals. Taylor's research
1:30
interests include interpersonal violence,
1:32
compassion fatigue prevention and treatment,
1:35
and trauma informed counselor education and
1:39
supervision. Dr. Compton
1:42
is an associate professor and director of the
1:45
Ph.D. in counselor education program at
1:47
Regent University. With over 29
1:50
years of experience in the mental health field. She is
1:53
a licensed clinical Social worker, certified
1:56
trauma treatment specialist, and compassion
1:59
fatigue educator. Dr. Compton has
2:02
been a conference keynote speaker, presented
2:04
internationally on trauma related topics
2:07
and has been featured on CBN News
2:10
discussing domestic violence and sexual
2:12
trauma. She is the co author of
2:15
Preparing for Trauma Work in Clinical Mental
2:18
Health and Safeguarding A Guide to
2:21
Preventing Abuse and Fostering Healing in the Church.
2:24
Her research focuses on secondary trauma
2:27
and trauma pedagogy with numerous
2:30
published articles. A reminder
2:33
before we start today's conversation, please take a
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moment to subscribe to the podcast, leave a review
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and share Future Christian with a Friend. Connect
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with Loren, Martha and Future Christian on
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laurensonate, uh mediapro.com
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with comments, questions or ideas for future
2:53
episodes. We appreciate your voice
2:56
in how we faithfully discern the future of the
2:59
church.
3:10
>> Loren: Hello and welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. This is Loren
3:13
Richmond Jr. Today I am pleased to be welcoming
3:16
Dr. Lisa Compton and Taylor Patterson
3:19
to the show. Hello. Thanks for being here.
3:22
>> Dr. Lisa Compton: Thanks for having us Loren.
3:24
>> Loren: Yeah, so we'll try to. We'll try to do this
3:27
well here with two people. I'm so used to one on
3:30
one interviews, but let's start with uh, Lisa. Share a Few
3:33
about your faith background and journey, what that looks like today.
3:37
>> Dr. Lisa Compton: Sure. So my journey started with
3:40
me, my friend Tammy and Jesus. And
3:42
um, when I was younger I was not raised in the
3:45
faith household, um, but I was
3:48
introduced to Jesus by a friend at summer camp.
3:51
And so I didn't go to church growing up. It
3:54
was really just a personal faith. And then
3:57
as I got into college
4:00
then it became something where I was going
4:02
to Christian fellowship and churches and
4:05
so that's where the system of the church then was
4:08
introduced. And I've been on staff at a church
4:11
and um, work at a Christian university.
4:14
So systems came later in.
4:16
>> Loren: Mhm.
4:16
>> Dr. Lisa Compton: My journey.
4:18
>> Loren: Taylor, how about you?
4:20
>> Taylor Patterson: Yeah, I would. The way I kind of describe it is I didn't
4:23
have, you know, you know, classically evangelical
4:26
childhood. Um, I didn't grow up in Sunday school
4:29
or doing Bible drill. My dad was a professional
4:32
minor league hockey coach growing up. So we were a little
4:35
rough around the edges. We moved around a lot and I
4:38
started attending church of as a later adolescent.
4:41
Um, was a goody two shoes. Really wanted
4:44
to fit in. And so as I came to know Christ I felt like I
4:47
had a lot of catching up to do and a lot
4:49
of uh, kind of Christian imposter syndrome. And so
4:52
I understood saved by grace through faith
4:55
alone, but had the now I really, really
4:58
have to earn my way into goodness in
5:01
the church. And I, I feel like my
5:04
faith in my adult life has been kind of this
5:07
cyclical process of learning what it looks like to rest in the
5:10
finished work of Christ. And a lot of that has come through
5:13
proximity to suffering and suffering. Other people
5:16
suffering my own and really
5:19
wrestling with God and raising my fist to the heavens and
5:22
him keeping me and holding me and learning what
5:25
it felt like to feel safe with God, which has been really
5:28
sweet.
5:29
>> Loren: Yeah, I appreciate you sharing that. I'm thinking of
5:33
a couple guests ago, Mae
5:35
Young, who wrote a book on Lament. I don't know if you
5:38
all have seen that. I thought it was pretty good recommend that.
5:42
Um, I also want to give a shout out to my
5:45
Canadian co host here. Since you're hockey
5:47
travels, did you spend any time in Canada doing the hockey
5:50
stuff?
5:51
>> Taylor Patterson: Yeah. So my dad is Canadian, he's from
5:53
Edmonton who played hockey at the University of
5:56
Alberta.
5:57
>> Loren: Awesome. Uh, Lisa first and
6:00
then Taylor. You're welcome to chime in. Uh, anything
6:03
you're willing to share about spiritual practices, spiritual disciplines that
6:06
sustain you now.
6:08
>> Dr. Lisa Compton: Sure. Um, I think one of m my
6:11
favorite things is to ask God a
6:13
question. Ask him for guidance on Something and
6:16
then just wait. And so I have notepads all over my
6:19
house, pads and pens and just waiting on
6:22
God. And the funny thing is that he
6:25
often gives me the answer while I'm driving or in the
6:28
shower where there are not notepads.
6:31
So that is one of my spiritual practices is
6:33
timing, hearing from God and then being able to
6:36
write it down before I forget.
6:39
>> Loren: Lisa, I wish we were in person. Like, I just bought on Facebook,
6:42
Marketplace, like, whole bin, because my daughter loves
6:45
to draw. So I just bought, like, a whole bin of, like, notepads and
6:47
journals so I could hook you up with
6:51
some notepads.
6:52
>> Dr. Lisa Compton: That would be great. I need a waterproof one for the shower, so if you come
6:55
up with that, let me know.
6:57
>> Loren: Taylor, how about you?
6:59
>> Taylor Patterson: Yeah, I mean, a lot of the normal things, but I think what has been
7:02
particularly sweet in this season is, um,
7:05
for the first time, a lot of my growing up years, I didn't go
7:08
to a particularly liturgical church. And our
7:11
church here in Charlottesville does have more liturgical
7:14
rhythms and practices. And I have found that to be
7:17
really grounding. And in the past few years, we've had
7:19
seasons of really great joy and really great
7:22
sorrow. And I think to show up
7:25
relatively week in and week out and to be saying the same things
7:28
about God has been really helpful. And for
7:31
other people to give me words when words have been hard has
7:34
been really helpful. And that's a practice I wouldn't
7:37
have known I needed five years ago.
7:39
>> Loren: Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned that again. Certainly
7:43
my colleague who's Anglican in Canada would appreciate.
7:46
Uh, it's an important thing. I think when, like you said, we
7:49
don't have the words, we don't know what to say, those kind of
7:51
prayers can help us stay connected,
7:54
uh, to God.
7:56
Well, let's jump in right away, just because for sake of time.
7:59
Taylor and Lisa are the authors of a book where, I
8:02
guess you're the editors. Right, the editors.
8:05
>> Dr. Lisa Compton: We have about 20 authors, and we did write some
8:07
of the chapters, but we have a whole team of
8:11
trauma, um, experts and writers with us.
8:13
>> Loren: Yeah. The book is Skills for Safeguarding A Guide
8:16
to Preventing Abuse and Fostering Healing
8:19
in the Church. I think an incredibly important
8:21
conversation in light of all that's happened over the last.
8:24
Gosh, I mean, the 21st century. I feel like
8:27
every few years is just another awful
8:30
story of churches and
8:33
institutions and church leaders just
8:36
abandoning, just doing
8:39
completely wrong things.
8:41
And I think one of the things that first struck me when
8:44
I read the book this was early on in the book y' all write,
8:47
or I guess one of your authors writes. But this quote struck me about
8:50
how one of the most effective ways to prevent abuse is
8:53
by seeking leaders with integrity.
8:57
And, uh, I mean,
9:00
I think it seems so obvious to me, but again and
9:03
again I see this repeated is
9:07
we do the opposite. So I
9:10
just wonder, like, what. What is that? What gets in the way
9:13
of that? Because it seems so basic, but
9:17
so far from what actually gets put into practice.
9:21
>> Dr. Lisa Compton: Yeah. I think one of the things that gets in the way
9:24
is the fact that religion is a
9:26
business and that, uh, leaders
9:29
who are charismatic motivational
9:32
speakers and can draw a big audience and increase
9:35
attendance are the ones that are
9:38
beneficial for
9:41
increasing bottom line. And so I think that that's
9:43
where there's a conflict between
9:46
character and charisma. And
9:49
what is driving the church in
9:52
terms of mission.
9:54
>> Taylor Patterson: I think, too, there can be this kind of.
9:57
We can really buy into the mantra that the ends justify the
10:00
means, that we can have this,
10:03
you know, godly goal of more m. People
10:06
coming to church. We want the church to have a good reputation in the community.
10:09
We. We want people to think that we are
10:12
friendly and charming and, um,
10:15
like, more people come to know Jesus. And
10:18
we. We think that we can kind
10:21
of cut corners in pursuit of that goal, that
10:24
efficiency is the highest good.
10:26
And Scripture never claims
10:29
that that efficiency is. Is the
10:32
thing we should pursue at any cost. And I think
10:35
that's one of the hard things, is integrity is proven over time
10:38
and is slow and steady and faithfulness
10:41
over a long period of time. And we often don't want to
10:44
prove that out.
10:45
>> Loren: Yeah. A spiritual director once told
10:48
me, and I think it's very much true that when
10:51
I want to get the order right, when the.
10:55
The ends justify the means, the means become the ends.
10:58
And I feel like that there's a lot of correlation here between what y' all are
11:01
talking about.
11:03
>> Taylor Patterson: Yes. Yes, absolutely. Yeah. We can't,
11:06
um, pursue godly goals by ungodly needs.
11:09
Like, that is not pleasing to God and
11:11
people are harmed.
11:13
>> Loren: Yeah. Uh, this reminds me of something I saw on social media.
11:16
I hadn't seen it in a few years, and I'm kind of
11:19
disheartened to see it again. I
11:22
don't know if y' all seen this, like, thing that people,
11:25
pastors will be like, we'll stop anywhere. You
11:28
know, we'll go all the way right up to sin, like, just short of
11:31
sin. And I'm like, no, like, let's back the
11:34
train up. Far from sin.
11:37
>> Dr. Lisa Compton: Yeah, yeah. Uh, it's a little bit
11:39
scary. But I think that, you
11:42
know, the crux of the New Testament is, okay,
11:45
we don't want to just don't break the law. We want to go
11:48
beyond that. We want to move towards love
11:51
and truth and goodness and
11:53
compassion and mercy. So
11:56
that's the opposite direction saying that we're going to go
11:59
up to the line of sin.
12:02
>> Loren: Yeah, I feel like I heard like a sermon or two on
12:05
that in my youth group days. Right. Of don't
12:08
doing that.
12:10
Taylor, you used the word reputation
12:14
and it stood out to me because I think
12:17
one of the things that is in the book is y' all
12:20
distinguish between a church as an institution and the
12:23
church's people of God. And there's tend to be this, especially
12:25
amongst bigger churches or institutions,
12:28
Christian institutions. It's like we got to protect the brand.
12:31
Like, we got to protect the image. We got to protect, as you
12:34
use the word reputation. Like,
12:37
how does. What's the significance of
12:41
distinguishing the church as a people of
12:43
God versus the church as an institution?
12:48
>> Taylor Patterson: Yeah, um, you know, we're
12:51
by no means anti local church. We're very,
12:53
very local church. But when
12:56
we, when we elevate the, um.
13:01
How do I want to phrase this? What comes to mind
13:04
is when Jesus said, um, man was not
13:07
built for the Sabbath, but Sabbath was built for man. I'm sure there's a
13:09
theologian listening to this that say that would give
13:12
protest. But we were not
13:15
like, built to, to raise up
13:18
a brand of the church. The church
13:21
was designed for our flourishing and for God's glory.
13:24
And so when it's not serving those purposes,
13:26
it's not existing as God's designed the church to be.
13:29
And so I don't feel a,
13:32
um, burden to preserve that
13:35
particular institution of that
13:38
particular local church or that particular brand.
13:41
And God's kingdom, God's
13:44
whole universal church, God's care for
13:47
the Christian church as a whole is not threatened
13:50
by a particular institution,
13:53
um, experiencing, uh, a
13:55
reckoning of sorts when they have harmed people.
13:59
>> Loren: Yeah, Lisa, I'm thinking of. I feel like I just saw something on this
14:02
on social media or somewhere about like,
14:05
I think it was like Hillsong New York or, you know, these, these really
14:08
big, dynamic mega churches where they're
14:11
like, demanding their volunteer staff just
14:14
work insane hours for free
14:17
at the sake of like, boosting,
14:20
you know, boosting the image and
14:23
reach of the church. Certainly what comes to mind is, you
14:26
know, the, the Mars Hill podcast and
14:29
some of those dynamics. Like,
14:31
I mean, I think, I think, um, this is what I really
14:34
Want to ask about Lisa? I think it's so easy
14:38
for us to look at those mega church examples and think, oh, we
14:41
would never let that happen in our context,
14:44
a smaller, like normative sized church. What do you think are
14:47
some of the ways that even in a smaller church, like the
14:49
median church is like 65 people, like that the
14:52
median sized church can protect the
14:55
institution at the sake of the people of
14:57
God.
14:59
>> Dr. Lisa Compton: So I think it comes down to are, uh, we valuing
15:02
the individual and the value of
15:05
the least of these among our congregations
15:08
compared to the branding and
15:11
mission of the church itself.
15:14
And I think Diane Langenberg said that
15:16
Jesus did not go to the cross for the church, he went to the
15:19
cross for people. And over and
15:22
over we see an Old and New Testament,
15:25
the value of people that may
15:28
not be able to even give much or serve much,
15:31
but how those are valuable to God.
15:34
And so I think that even in small
15:36
churches and, and large churches,
15:39
once we start valuing the institution
15:41
itself, then everyone can
15:44
close ranks around the leader
15:47
and around the image as
15:50
opposed to protecting and valuing
15:53
the least of these individuals.
15:56
>> Loren: Yeah, yeah, that's good.
16:00
So in the book y' all propose
16:03
what you highlight or what you term a
16:06
tripod of relational safety.
16:09
Taylor, do you want to start by walking us
16:12
through what that tripod of relational safety looks like?
16:15
>> Taylor Patterson: Yeah. So this was developed by Dr. Diliacco
16:18
at the Catholic Safeguarding Institute. And
16:21
um, it comprises of three things. Safe self,
16:24
safe community, and safe ministry. And so it
16:27
highlights that, um, we can't have
16:29
safe ministry if we first don't bear some
16:32
individual responsibility to be safe people,
16:35
that we have to engage with what we as
16:38
counselors call our own reactivity. Where am
16:41
I prone to experience a larger emotional
16:44
response to like daily things? Where
16:47
do I feel defensive? Where do I feel outsized
16:50
anger when I feel slighted? Where am I prone to
16:53
feel insecure and maybe seek
16:55
validation from other people who
16:58
aren't um, aren't um, in
17:01
roles that need to be giving me validation? Um,
17:04
those are really, really important things to dive into because
17:07
that's where we're vulnerable. To use our power to harm others and
17:10
not to serve others. And once we've taken on that
17:12
individual responsibility to be a safe person, to
17:15
build a safe self, we can be in safe community with
17:18
others. We can build safe relationship with one another
17:21
where we can hold one another accountable, that we can
17:25
kind um, of hold the mirror up to one another to see these things
17:27
and build these kind of reciprocal relationships, these back
17:30
and forth relationships out of that Safe community,
17:34
then we can engage in safe ministry to the vulnerable
17:36
that oftentimes we just dive into
17:39
serving the vulnerable out of good intentions. But we've done
17:42
no meaningful reflection on what's going on in me
17:45
that might um, prompt me to use this role in
17:48
a way that actually could harm people.
17:51
>> Loren: Yeah, yeah, Lisa, talk about what can happen
17:54
when like those three parts aren't working together
17:57
in harmony.
17:58
>> Dr. Lisa Compton: I think first people have to understand what safety is.
18:01
So um, I think we first go to, well,
18:04
we're a safe church, meaning physically safe.
18:08
And so yes, of course keeping people physically safe
18:10
is important, but I think understanding what
18:13
emotional safety means as well
18:16
and that when we are
18:18
talking about trauma, we can re
18:21
traumatize people that are trauma survivors
18:24
by not understanding the words that we're using.
18:27
Um, so I think that you have
18:30
to understand what safety is to really
18:33
understand this, this diagram that
18:35
intersects the self, the
18:38
community and the ministry. Because
18:41
if you have any of those cards
18:44
off, like starting with ourselves, we have to be a
18:47
safe person to ourselves and to others. And
18:50
then that is going to impact the ministry
18:53
and the community. And if there's, if safety is
18:56
missing in any fashion in any one of those, it's going
18:59
to affect the culture across the board.
19:02
>> Loren: I'm glad you mentioned the point about emotional safety because I think
19:05
that can be a trend in some,
19:08
some church spaces where there's this like, like you
19:11
know, for good reason, this, this want to have
19:14
authenticity and vulnerability. But you
19:17
know, at some point like personal boundaries matter, right?
19:19
>> Taylor Patterson: Mhm.
19:22
Certainly.
19:22
>> Dr. Lisa Compton: Yeah, personal boundaries matter. And um,
19:26
even things, churches are a big hugging community,
19:29
Right. I'm a big hugger, but I am not a hugger.
19:32
>> Loren: So if we met like I'm a handshake, I grew up
19:34
Baptist.
19:35
>> Dr. Lisa Compton: Right. So if I run across the room to you with my
19:38
arms wide open, you are probably going to feel less
19:41
safe. So yeah, just
19:44
recognizing like you said, people's boundaries
19:47
and I think it's the humility
19:50
that will drive us to want
19:53
to adjust our own words and behaviors
19:56
for the sake of others. And maybe some
19:59
people are going to have pushback after
20:02
um, politically correctness and then led to cancel
20:05
culture. And I'm not saying that we, we
20:08
need to treat everybody like they're a
20:10
snowflake, but I think that there's a respect
20:14
that we can give people, there's a respect that
20:17
we can give women in the way
20:19
they're, they're talked about. There's a respect
20:23
with children, there's a respect with people with
20:25
disabilities. Like I think that it's the vulnerable
20:28
people that are at the most risk.
20:31
>> Loren: Mhm.
20:33
>> Taylor Patterson: Yeah. Loren, I'm glad you mentioned the
20:35
um, kind of prizing
20:37
authenticity and sharing, which is a good value.
20:40
It's a meaningful thing. But there also can be a
20:43
demand of hearing all of yourself immediately
20:46
when you enter into a community without the
20:50
um, natural relationship trust building.
20:53
That should be the foundation of that kind of
20:56
emotionally intimate sharing. And that's one of the things that we
20:59
try to engage with in the book of what are these
21:02
foundational skills that would be helpful for people in the
21:04
church to know as they're trying to build safe
21:07
relationships, safe trusting relationships with people
21:10
so that they over time feel safe to share of
21:13
themselves, not because trauma survivors or
21:16
people in general owe us all aspects
21:19
of their really, really terrible stories.
21:22
>> Loren: Yeah, I feel like you're. I think that's a great point about
21:26
mutual respect. Like, I feel like that's such a
21:29
basic biblical, like, uh,
21:32
I'm googling Romans 12:10. Like, seems
21:35
like the obvious scripture
21:38
comes to mind to that point. But like you said, that
21:41
can be. Well, let's not go too deep into
21:43
that. But uh, I'm glad you're making that emphasis
21:48
and understanding the point about boundaries or emphasizing the
21:51
point about boundaries.
21:52
I want to talk similar to about boundaries
21:56
and often the
21:59
annihilation of boundaries depending on how powerful the person
22:01
is. Power, uh, dynamics.
22:04
Why is awareness of power so essential?
22:08
And why is it so hard
22:11
to navigate oftentimes in churches? And let
22:14
me maybe preface it by this way. So I've
22:17
worked in evangelical and mainline church context
22:20
and mainline churches often do like a really good job of
22:23
having solid professional boundaries. But
22:26
oftentimes there's this big disconnect, it seems
22:29
like relationally from the clergy person and
22:32
the congregation. Whereas what I've seen in
22:34
evangelical churches, in my experience and others is
22:38
there can be almost this really
22:41
melding of relationship which can go really sideways.
22:44
Uh, talk about those power dynamics and
22:47
what that can look like. Lisa, do you want to start?
22:51
>> Dr. Lisa Compton: Yeah. So first, everyone has power.
22:54
There's just varying degrees and it's
22:56
impacted by the positions and roles we play with each other.
23:00
And so I've heard people argue when
23:03
we're talking, for example, about
23:06
um, treating trauma survivors
23:09
and um, the various situations,
23:12
people might argue the fact and say, oh well, they were two
23:15
consenting adults without understanding
23:17
positionally how this impacts the
23:20
relationship. So if somebody
23:22
has influence over another,
23:25
it could be because they are a supervisor, because
23:29
they have hiring and firing potential,
23:32
um, because they are older, because they are
23:35
wiser and more mature as opposed to a younger person
23:38
whose brain isn't fully developed yet.
23:41
Um, whatever the reason is, anybody that has
23:44
more significant influence over the other person creates
23:47
a power differential. And when there's a, ah, power
23:50
differential, it's always the responsibility of the person
23:53
with more power to ensure safety for both
23:56
of them. And so that's why even with two
23:58
consult consenting adults, that you can
24:01
still have abuse of power, you can still
24:04
have spiritual abuse, you can have sexual abuse
24:07
because of these power dynamics at play.
24:10
And so whether it's a pastor to a
24:13
congregation, which is even illegal in
24:16
some states, which, whether it's an adult
24:19
to a child, um, and
24:22
even if that child in my opinion has
24:24
turned 18 and the adult is 38, that's a power
24:27
differential.
24:28
>> Loren: Yeah, right.
24:29
>> Dr. Lisa Compton: And so um, we've, we've labeled things as
24:32
affairs that are actually abuse due to
24:35
power differentials. So I think that's a really important
24:39
concept to first understand and that although
24:41
everyone does have power, a degree of power, and should
24:44
participate in safeguarding, there
24:47
really is a big difference when people have more
24:50
influence over others.
24:51
>> Loren: Yeah, I'm glad you, you have mentioned that. Lisa Taylor
24:54
talk about how churches can
24:57
navigate in a healthy
25:00
way, you know, the mutual
25:03
relationships, but also respecting those power
25:05
differences.
25:07
>> Taylor Patterson: Yeah, yeah. So,
25:08
um, you know, this question brings to mind the,
25:11
the passage in Philippians 2 about Jesus,
25:14
though he was in the form of God, did not consider equality with
25:17
God, envied himself and took on the form
25:20
of a servant. There's uh, that kind of. We
25:23
are trying to follow the model of Christ here,
25:26
that, that though we have power, we are using our power
25:29
to serve. And our
25:31
autopilot tendency is not going to be
25:34
to use our power to serve. Our autopilot
25:37
tendency is going to be to use our power to meet our own
25:40
needs. And that can cause a lot of harm.
25:43
And so we um,
25:45
within the church there, there has to
25:48
be a really, really intentional effort to
25:51
recognize the positions that we're in. Um, and
25:54
this is something that we have to navigate as counselors all the time.
25:57
Like as counselors we are in positions of
26:00
significant power and significant implements with our clients.
26:03
And so it is um,
26:06
really openly discussed that
26:09
um, we're trying to build
26:12
collaborative relationships, that there is
26:15
um, a differential here and
26:18
m. How can we help you,
26:21
um, be empowered to make more choices? And so I think that that's part
26:24
of what would be valuable within church spaces, that it
26:27
be part of the open conversation that
26:30
um, church pastors, elders, deacons are
26:33
having conversations within their church about how
26:36
they're exerc. Exercising influence and that they are,
26:39
um, acknowledging that they're wanting to use
26:42
that power to empower others.
26:45
>> Loren: Yeah, let's stay on that for a moment, if I may, because
26:48
certainly, I mean, there is
26:51
some measure of authority,
26:54
I think another word for power. Right. From
26:57
a clergy person or a church leader. And they want
27:00
to use their influence, their
27:03
authority to influence someone
27:06
for the sake of the gospel, to become
27:08
a follower of Jesus, to become a more
27:11
closely disciple of Jesus.
27:15
There is like, correct me if I'm wrong here. If you
27:18
just read like, there can be some good use of that power.
27:21
Yes.
27:22
>> Taylor Patterson: Yeah, certainly.
27:24
>> Loren: What does Lisa like? How do we.
27:27
How does, what would you tell, like a church leader or a
27:29
pastor when that leadership
27:32
or that influence or that authority is going sideways?
27:37
>> Dr. Lisa Compton: I would say that influence, when
27:39
it involves control, coercion and
27:42
manipulation is always sideways.
27:45
And Jesus.
27:45
>> Loren: Now hold on. Write that, uh, out.
27:47
>> Dr. Lisa Compton: Control, coercion, coercion
27:50
and manipulation. It's always
27:52
sideways at that point. Because
27:55
Jesus did not impose on us to
27:58
obey. He called us, he
28:01
invited us. He spoke truth and he modeled it.
28:04
He did not follow force. He did not micromanage.
28:06
>> Loren: Yeah.
28:07
>> Dr. Lisa Compton: And so I think that it's stepping over the line
28:10
when spiritual leaders are trying to
28:13
tell people what they have to do
28:16
and they weaponize shame
28:19
to get people to do what they want,
28:22
even if it's for good, even if
28:24
the goal. I mean, we've seen this in the purity culture
28:27
movement, uh, where yes, sexual
28:30
purity is a good thing, but again,
28:33
the means don't justify the
28:36
end here. Because if
28:38
we are manipulating and forcing and
28:41
weaponizing shame to get people to obey
28:44
the gospel, we're not operating in
28:47
righteousness and following the model of Jesus
28:49
in terms of how we use our own power.
28:53
>> Loren: You mentioned shame, and I want to jump to that because
28:56
I think it's such an important part of this conversation.
28:59
I'm going to read a book or excuse me, I'm going to read a quote here directly
29:02
from the book. It says
29:05
there's a definitive distinction between shame and
29:08
guilt. Guilt is the emotional response to regrettable
29:11
actions or behaviors that were perceived as wrong
29:13
or inconsistent with values and
29:16
can lead to, uh, a necessary repair of the offense.
29:20
Shame is a self devaluing emotional
29:22
response integrated into one's identity
29:25
and self worth due to perceptions of the self
29:28
as bad, sinful, unlovable, dirty, or
29:31
other deplorable traits. Shame is
29:33
intrinsically painful and emotionally
29:36
dysregulating.
29:39
Talk more, Taylor, about how, I
29:42
mean, uh, Talk more about how that
29:45
dynamic gets played out in unhealthy ways. That distinction.
29:49
>> Taylor Patterson: Yeah, so
29:52
this distinction is really important because, you know, there's that,
29:55
um, verse in 2 Corinthians about godly
29:58
grief leading to repentance that leads to salvation and
30:01
worldly grief leading to death. And I think that's the distinction we're
30:04
talking about is guilt
30:07
is an important emotion and one
30:10
we should grow to tolerate because it
30:13
leads us to recognize the ways that we are making
30:16
choices that harm ourselves and harm others. And we can
30:18
move toward God and others in repair and
30:21
in repentance. And, and so guilt, when
30:24
we, when we learn how to respond to it, rightly moves
30:27
us toward connection. Shame
30:30
tells us that we are broken, that we are
30:33
wholly unlovable, that we are wholly bad.
30:36
And it prompts us to move away from God and others
30:39
in disconnection. And so the, the
30:41
outcome is like polar opposites.
30:44
Do we notice something that we've done that's bad and
30:47
move toward others in connection with, or do we notice something that
30:50
we've done that's bad and move toward hiding?
30:54
>> Loren: Lisa, I'm curious about this too. You mentioned
30:56
purity culture as an example of
31:00
an unhealthy practice of shame versus guilt.
31:04
I'm wondering, I'm thinking about this too. When we
31:07
think about man
31:10
2020 and so much of the
31:13
Black Lives Matter and this need for, uh, conciliation
31:16
among, especially towards people of
31:19
color in our nation. But there's very much
31:22
a backlash in
31:25
many instances. And I'm wondering, do you think that
31:28
shame and guilt sometimes don't get
31:31
distinguished well enough? Uh,
31:34
again, like I said in the book, I think that's
31:37
an important point of saying. I think
31:40
Martin Luther King did this thing nation. We are guilty
31:43
of not living up to our values, but
31:46
that doesn't mean like we're terrible people.
31:48
>> Dr. Lisa Compton: Mhm. I think that the definitions
31:51
definitely get, are misunderstood and
31:54
misused. And I think, you know,
31:57
as counselors, I think that most of us have a different
32:00
understanding or a more clear understanding of this
32:03
because it comes up so much in the work that we do.
32:06
And in fact, we find most people that are
32:08
stuck in mental health issues related to
32:11
their trauma, it's not so much the traumatic event that
32:14
happened, it's the shame that was associated
32:17
with it. And it's the shame that often came from the
32:20
people that they thought would be their support
32:23
system. We could see this in the church
32:26
that as, as we go to the
32:29
church with our struggles, if
32:32
we are met with you're
32:34
bad and Shunned and our community
32:37
is pulled away from us and things like that
32:40
instead of focusing on behaviors because
32:42
all have sinned. And, and so I think that that's the
32:45
key to really understand that, that
32:49
guilt is an internal, ah, conviction.
32:51
It's a, the behavior was wrong, I
32:54
should change the behavior. And shame
32:57
is I am bad or you are bad.
33:00
And then the consequences of that again
33:03
are, are withdrawing from
33:06
community only, almost like a leprosy.
33:09
And that does not restore someone that
33:11
dest.
33:13
>> Taylor Patterson: Yeah, yeah. And I think to your
33:16
point, Loren, the, this kind of
33:18
guilt versus shame dynamic doesn't just happen in trauma
33:21
survivors. It happens in all of us.
33:24
And when, you know, there's an instance of injustice
33:27
in our church where
33:29
maybe we write about complicity in the book, where,
33:32
um, you know, abuse is not just an offender,
33:35
there's a whole system around the offender that
33:38
enables abuse. And when we
33:40
recognize our role in enabling
33:43
abuse, we might feel prone to feel
33:46
shame. And out of that shame,
33:49
we could be further complicit.
33:51
>> Loren: Yeah.
33:52
>> Taylor Patterson: Say, let's just move toward grace. Let's move toward
33:55
forgiveness because I don't want to address my real
33:57
feeling of guilt and move toward
34:00
reconciliation because I can't
34:02
tolerate how uncomfortable this feeling is. And so we just need to
34:05
make it go away. And so I think it's important for all of
34:08
us not to just say guilt and shame is a trauma survivor feeling,
34:11
but for all of us to learn how to respond
34:14
to the feeling of guilt so that we, uh, don't
34:17
find ourselves shame spiraling because we can't
34:20
attune to that feeling and move toward repentance and repair.
34:24
>> Loren: That's interesting that you mentioned that about
34:29
feelings of shame, people feeling the anxiety
34:34
and wanting that kind of fix or immediate
34:36
relief of, well, let's push for grace and
34:39
forgiveness.
34:42
Certainly there's too many examples. Right.
34:45
Of churches
34:49
immediately asking someone who's been offended
34:53
like, to offer grace and to extend
34:55
forgiveness.
35:01
I'm not sure the question asked, but what more do you want to add
35:04
to that? It's such a heavy conversation there.
35:08
>> Dr. Lisa Compton: Uh, I think that one thing that I would add, just like
35:11
it says in Romans 6, is that grace is not a license
35:13
to sin and it's certainly not a license
35:16
to harm other people. And so
35:20
if we're going to have a culture of
35:22
both compassion and clear
35:25
boundaries, we need to understand
35:29
the purpose of grace. True grace
35:31
invites transformation. It
35:34
invites change towards righteousness.
35:37
It is not avoidance of responsibility.
35:40
And, um, without acknowledgment
35:44
of responsibility, there's no true repentance
35:47
and so all of this is connected.
35:50
Forgiveness is not something that anyone should ever be
35:53
forced to do that. It actually doesn't make it
35:55
forgiveness. It just makes it an acceptance of
35:58
an apology. Um, but
36:01
again, grace is not something
36:04
that we can use as a tool
36:07
to avoid responsibility, to
36:09
avoid those feelings of shame,
36:13
to avoid, uh, any of our uncomfortableness,
36:16
and to allow sin to flourish.
36:19
>> Loren: I can't remember if it was in this book or somewhere
36:22
else or. Yes, yes, here on 2
36:25
26. Forgiveness does not mean reconciliation.
36:28
No victim should ever be forced to reconcile
36:31
with the perpetrator. I think this is a really
36:34
helpful distinction
36:36
because I wrote about this in a
36:39
subject myself. Like, you know,
36:42
I have someone to harm me in life in a ministry setting. Like,
36:45
I've forgiven them, or at least I am
36:48
very much trying to practice the 70 times 7. Right. Of
36:51
when that bitterness comes up, still trying to forgive them. Right.
36:54
Uh, but I don't necessarily want to go make friends with them again. Right.
36:58
>> Taylor Patterson: Yeah.
36:59
>> Dr. Lisa Compton: Well.
36:59
>> Taylor Patterson: And I think that's that kind of trust building that we talked about earlier,
37:02
that if there is, uh. I mean, in cases
37:05
of abuse, it's. There's a lot of.
37:09
There's so many layers of deception and wickedness that goes
37:12
into a person, uh, harming another person
37:15
in such a profound way. And so
37:18
there should always be safeguards and always
37:21
be layers of accountability around another person who has
37:23
harmed someone in such a profound way. But even in what you're
37:26
describing, there's like this kind of, um.
37:29
I mean, I don't know the details of it, but, like, if
37:32
there have not been any movement toward trust building,
37:36
there's wisdom in. In being cautious about what the
37:39
relationship looks like because you're also protecting them
37:41
from sinning against you. Again, like, you're. There's a.
37:45
It could be loving toward them to be wise about how
37:48
much access they have.
37:50
>> Loren: Yeah. Let's stay on that for a moment here real quick,
37:53
because, gosh, I want to try to find the quote, but
37:55
y' all say something or something is in the book
37:58
about grace being good boundaries. And
38:01
I thought that was quite interesting.
38:04
Lisa, do you want to comment to that?
38:06
>> Dr. Lisa Compton: Yeah. Well, first I wanted to say, uh, that
38:09
forgiveness does not mean restoration of relationship.
38:12
Those are two very different things. And
38:15
somebody can fully forgive someone and
38:17
never be in contact with them again. And
38:20
so I think we do need to separate out,
38:23
um, forgiveness as a
38:26
letting go and turning it over to God,
38:29
as opposed to, um, being the one
38:32
to. To harbor all the
38:35
negative feelings and thoughts over and over.
38:38
But Being in relationship with somebody
38:41
is completely separate. And that's where it's
38:44
important for people that have suffered abuse to know
38:47
that you can forgive and you do not have to
38:50
ever talk to that person again. If that is not
38:52
a person that is going to be safe, ongoing.
38:56
So that is an important differentiation.
38:59
Uh, I forgot what you asked. So maybe dealer
39:02
came up with a question.
39:03
>> Taylor Patterson: Yeah, I think, Loren, you were talking.
39:05
>> Loren: About, um, grace and boundaries. Yeah.
39:08
Ah.
39:08
>> Taylor Patterson: Particularly with offenders. And
39:11
I think that's where the quote was coming from.
39:13
>> Loren: Right, right.
39:14
>> Taylor Patterson: Um, you know, one of the things I think where this
39:17
kind of grace and accountability, like, rushing to that
39:20
place can come from is, you know, someone,
39:24
uh, finds out that someone they really loved and
39:26
trusted has caused such significant harm,
39:29
and that's really, really dysregulating. That's so
39:32
disorienting. It's confusing. And you just want
39:35
everything to go back to how it was. You want everything to be okay again.
39:38
You want everything, like, everyone to be okay.
39:40
And it. You want life and relationships
39:43
to make sense again. And so there's this sense of, like,
39:46
let's rush to make it make sense again.
39:49
But that is not loving book to the. To the
39:52
victim, and that makes sense to all of us. Why? That's not loving to the victim, but
39:55
it's also not loving to the offender because
39:58
it harms us when we sin.
40:01
It harms us when we cause harm to other people.
40:04
It is loving to an offender to,
40:08
uh, protect them and. And give. Help
40:11
them see the natural consequences of their sin with the
40:14
hope that it would lead them to repentance. And so for us
40:16
to, like, protect offenders from the
40:19
consequences of their sin doesn't do them any favors.
40:22
It's not loving, and it just glosses things over.
40:25
And we, and we shroud it with Christian
40:28
language and call it loving, but it's. It really harms
40:31
everyone involved.
40:33
>> Loren: Yeah, this is great stuff here. I'm.
40:36
I'm hearing a lot of family systems theory in your. Your
40:39
thinking here. I'm not sure if that's intentional,
40:42
but certainly, yeah, it resonates.
40:46
One more question here before we take a break.
40:49
If y' all could give, like, one first step a church
40:52
could. Could take or, or think about if they really want
40:55
to be more intentional on creating
40:58
safer and healthier churches, where could they
41:01
begin? Uh, Lisa, why don't we start with you?
41:04
>> Dr. Lisa Compton: Yeah. I think starting with trainings
41:06
on trauma and power differentials is, Is
41:10
one step forward in terms of
41:13
creating awareness. So I'm, I'm a big
41:16
proponent of education and
41:19
Um, I think that that's a really good place to start
41:22
because if you don't understand the impact
41:25
of abuse, the impact of trauma,
41:28
how it creates
41:31
a ripple effect across so many
41:34
systems and how there can be
41:36
complicity not just with a perpetrator,
41:39
but, but also the systems around, as we
41:42
had mentioned, I, um, think that that's a really important
41:45
place to start before we go to
41:48
building out procedural type of things.
41:51
Of course churches should have policies and that type of
41:54
thing, but I think starting with the understanding of
41:57
trauma and power is a really good place to start.
42:00
>> Loren: Yeah. Taylor, how about you?
42:03
>> Taylor Patterson: Yeah, I would just add to that. Um, you know, I think a lot of
42:06
churches are realizing that they need some kind of safeguarding policy
42:09
in place of how many nursery workers take a child
42:12
to the bathroom, which again, super important, really, really
42:15
valuable. But they end up starting and
42:18
stopping with training the lowest level volunteer.
42:21
And the leaders don't end up getting very
42:24
much on that trauma training. And they're the ones who are getting,
42:28
doing a lot of the finding out about
42:30
allegations of abuse and responding to allegations of abuse. And
42:33
so this really starts with leadership.
42:36
And again, those volunteer trainings are important and they could
42:39
happen, but we need to start with leadership.
42:42
And we intentionally designed our book with
42:45
discussion questions. And so for a leadership team to
42:48
do, like to read the book together, to
42:51
ask and answer discussion questions together and look within
42:54
themselves of uh, where is this
42:56
sticking? What's hard about this? What am m I noticing in
42:59
myself? Where am I prone to use power in a way that
43:02
um, harms in. In ways that could seem
43:05
small? Like how can we be, um, develop
43:08
a culture of self reflection amongst our leadership team.
43:12
>> Loren: This really reminds me just to, to back to the beginning of
43:15
our conversation like that this all takes time
43:18
and energy and purpose that might
43:20
be seen as like a distraction from like doing,
43:24
you know, reaching people or what have you. But like,
43:27
we've got to understand and I think this
43:30
is the message y' all are trying to say, like, this is essential for
43:33
the health and vitality of the church, like long
43:37
term. So, uh, again, the book is
43:39
Skills for Safeguarding A Guide to Preventing
43:42
Abuse and Fostering Healing in the Church. Really recommend it.
43:45
Let's take a quick break and we'll come back with some closing
43:47
questions.
43:51
>> Taylor Patterson: All.
43:51
>> Loren: Uh, right, we're back with Dr. Lisa Compton and Taylor
43:54
Patterson. Really appreciate this conversation.
43:57
Uh, grateful for Yalls perspectives.
44:00
Uh, okay, so the closing questions. You're welcome to
44:03
take these as seriously or not as you'd like to. Um,
44:05
you can respond Both or skip whatever you want to do. But, uh,
44:08
if you're Pope for a day, what would that day look like?
44:12
What might you want to do? Anything you want to accomplish.
44:15
Thinking about having significant influence
44:17
somewhere.
44:20
>> Dr. Lisa Compton: Well, I'll keep it relevant to what we were
44:23
talking about before.
44:24
>> Loren: Yeah.
44:25
>> Dr. Lisa Compton: I would love every single church and every single
44:27
ministry to have a safeguarding team that
44:30
did not have leadership on their team.
44:33
So separate. The safeguarding team should be
44:36
trained, and they should be separate from the leadership.
44:39
So if I were Pope, that would be one of the first things
44:42
that I did.
44:43
>> Loren: That's good, Taylor.
44:44
>> Taylor Patterson: Yeah. Lisa's a visionary. Um, my first thought
44:47
was, yikes. Uh, I don't know that I want to be Pope for the day.
44:51
So what goes on in me is, wow. I just hope I don't break
44:54
anything and, like, want to model,
44:58
uh, faithful, ordinary service to the least of these, because
45:00
I think most of what I want is not accomplished in
45:03
a day. But maybe that helps move
45:06
the needle in normal, ordinary
45:10
servant leadership.
45:11
>> Loren: Those are great. Those are both great answers.
45:14
Uh, a theologian or historical Christian figure you'd want to
45:17
meet or bring back to life. Let's go reverse here,
45:20
Taylor, then Lisa.
45:22
>> Taylor Patterson: Yes. So this might be a little cliche, but CS Lewis
45:25
has been a companion through so many phases of my Christian life.
45:28
That has been really sweet. So to continue
45:31
companioning with him would be sweet. Um, the other that comes to
45:34
mind is Nathan. Uh, we wrote about him in the
45:36
safeguarding book, uh, in his Confrontation of King David.
45:40
And it was just so courageous. And
45:43
I would be curious, um, what he
45:45
would say about our current time and the current place we find
45:48
ourselves.
45:49
>> Loren: Yeah, Lisa.
45:51
>> Dr. Lisa Compton: I actually struggled with this question, maybe because I am
45:54
not great at history, and that was triggering. I don't know.
45:57
But, um, the one person that came to mind was
45:59
Kenneth Hagen, because early on, back in the day,
46:02
obviously, that's who I, um,
46:05
listened to and read his books, and he even
46:08
came to one of the, um, the churches that I was at at the
46:11
time, and he didn't even have to open a Bible. And
46:14
this is before we had screens in the back, but would just
46:17
cite, like, an entire chapter of a Bible by
46:20
memory. Um, so he was really one of the
46:23
great, um, inspirations for me in terms of
46:26
teaching and knowledge of the Bible. So
46:29
that would be my pick.
46:30
>> Loren: Yeah. What do you think history
46:33
will remember, Lisa, uh, from this current
46:36
time place? And I guess I'm giving you another hard answer here.
46:39
Hard question.
46:40
>> Dr. Lisa Compton: It is hard because, you know, it's almost like with COVID
46:43
when we were in Covid, it was really hard to see, like, when
46:46
we look back in history, what is this going to? What are we
46:49
going to think about it? And I feel like it's
46:52
kind of the same. I can talk about where
46:55
we've been. When I started counseling almost 30 years
46:58
ago, we didn't talk about trauma. Like,
47:01
trauma was thought of as rare. And so,
47:04
you know, we've seen so much change over the past decades.
47:07
Right now I feel like we're in the season of.
47:10
It's getting stirred up and so
47:13
people are getting held accountable. Things are
47:16
being called out on social media. For me, that
47:18
doesn't love conflict. It's, it's uncomfortable, but
47:21
I know that it's good and it's moving towards
47:24
change. So I feel like the current state
47:27
is. It's all coming to light
47:30
and being stirred up, and
47:32
hopefully we're going to see the shaking
47:35
settle towards real significant change.
47:39
>> Loren: Yeah. Yeah. Good. Taylor?
47:41
>> Taylor Patterson: Yeah, I would echo that from the optimistic part
47:44
of me says the pro is that this would be seen as like
47:47
a time of reckoning that leads to fruit. Like,
47:50
you know, watch things are coming out, and hopefully that is good for
47:53
the church. Um, the part of me that's like, you
47:56
know, the con side, I guess, is that this is a time of
47:59
such intense polarization, and we are, you
48:02
know, there's security tests on either side and
48:05
that are loud and hard and
48:07
intense. And, um. Yeah, but then I
48:10
feel that there's nothing new under the sun, and faithful
48:13
Christians have navigated seasons of instability and
48:17
polarization for a long, long time. So
48:20
maybe none of those things. Maybe it'll be something different.
48:22
>> Loren: But, well, let's, let's end on this more
48:25
hopeful.
48:25
What do you hope for the future of Christianity, Taylor?
48:29
>> Taylor Patterson: Yeah, I hope, uh, that
48:33
as the dust settles on a reckoning, that
48:36
we grow to be known for ordinary,
48:39
faithful service, that we love God and love our
48:42
neighbor, and that comes to be what the church is known
48:44
for rather than, uh, what it
48:47
feels like the church is known for. Now, that is
48:50
scandal and harm and abuse, injustice.
48:53
>> Dr. Lisa Compton: Yeah, Lisa, Um,
48:56
this one was really hard because there's so
48:59
many things I would want to add, but I think, number
49:02
one, I'd like to see power more shared as
49:05
opposed to an all focus on one,
49:09
um, leader in the church. I'd like to see more
49:12
shared power, and I'd like to see
49:15
more focus on formation early on
49:18
in training programs, whether it's seminaries or
49:21
whatever it is, where there's. We're not just
49:24
doing work on theology. But we're also
49:28
engaging with our past stories, increasing
49:31
our own self awareness, understanding
49:33
how as our roles and
49:36
powers increase there's going to be more pressure and more
49:39
anxiety and what is our own dysregulation
49:42
look like and how we deal with it. So
49:45
that's, that's where I think safeguarding has
49:48
to start. And that's, that's one of the reasons why we
49:51
made this into something that is, could be
49:54
a textbook because we really want it to be a
49:57
tool, information. Um, and so I think
50:00
it does start there that it's, we need to take some of the
50:02
pressure off the leaders. Like you know, we love
50:05
pastors and priests and leaders and
50:09
so we're not against them. I think that there's too much pressure
50:12
on them to be all things to all people and
50:14
I think the power needs to be spread out and we all need
50:17
to be able to engage, engage with our own stories.
50:21
>> Loren: Wow, that's, this has been good stuff. I'm really thankful for the
50:23
conversation, uh, grateful that we could make
50:26
this work and, and again grateful for the book and I hope it's a
50:29
help for others.
50:31
Uh, do you want to share anything about like where folks can connect
50:34
with you, all that stuff?
50:37
>> Dr. Lisa Compton: I think the easiest for me is my website,
50:39
drlisacompton.com.
50:43
>> Taylor Patterson: I'M not terribly public but we have a
50:46
website for the book too. SkillsForSafeGuarding. Uh.com has
50:49
information about the book and you can put a little message in there that
50:51
connects with us too.
50:54
>> Loren: Okay. Websites, Dr. Lisa Compton and
50:56
uh, the skills website. Okay. Well again
50:59
thank you so much for the conversation. Appreciate your
51:02
uh, making this work with me and uh, we always leave
51:05
folks with a word of peace. So may God's peace be with you.
51:15
>> Loren Richmond: Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast. The
51:18
Future Christian Podcast is produced by Resonate Media.
51:22
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51:25
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51:27
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51:30
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51:45
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