Latest / The Post-Separation Abuse Podcast / 119. Parenting without court orders: More options than you might realise

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119. Parenting without court orders: More options than you might realise · The Post-Separation Abuse Podcast

• 0:01
  Danielle Black: A brief heads up for this episode of the Post Separation Abuse Podcast.
• 0:06
  Danielle Black: You are about to be hearing our senior coach here at Danielle Black Coaching, Bridget Morgan.
• 0:12
  Danielle Black: She's going to be leading you through this week's topic on the post-separation abuse podcast.
• 0:18
  Danielle Black: But please do stay tuned at the end of Bridget's episode because I'm also going to be jumping in with some additional information and insights on this topic.
• 0:31
  Brigid Morgan: Hi, welcome to another episode of the Post Separation Abuse Podcast.
• 0:36
  Brigid Morgan: I'm Bridget Morgan, one of the senior coaches here at Daniel Black Coaching, and I'm really glad you're here.
• 0:43
  Brigid Morgan: Today I wanted to talk about something that I think is under discussed in the post-separation abuse space.
• 0:51
  Brigid Morgan: It's something I also feel personally very connected to because it's been central to my own experience as a separated parent.
• 0:58
  Brigid Morgan: We're talking about shared care parenting within these dynamics without formal court orders.
• 1:06
  Brigid Morgan: Now before I go any further, it's really important to say that I have not personally navigated any part of the family court system for parenting matters.
• 1:16
  Brigid Morgan: I am not a legal expert, and nothing in this episode is legal advice.
• 1:21
  Brigid Morgan: What I can offer is the perspective of someone who has been navigating shared care parenting in a high conflict situation without formal court orders for a number of years now.
• 1:35
  Brigid Morgan: I'd like to share a bit about what that looks like from the inside, including the challenges, the uncertainties, and honestly, some things that have genuinely surprised me about how workable it can be in certain situations.
• 1:51
  Brigid Morgan: So this podcast episode, I'm billing it as part one.
• 1:56
  Brigid Morgan: I suspect there will be a much longer conversation that will unfold across multiple episodes.
• 2:04
  Brigid Morgan: This topic has a lot of layers.
• 2:08
  Brigid Morgan: And when I started to draft the content for this episode, I realized how complex it actually is.
• 2:15
  Brigid Morgan: So rather than keep putting it off, I thought I would just dive in with a bit of an overview, and then we can unpack some of the nuances and details in future episodes.
• 2:28
  Brigid Morgan: So keep your eyes peeled for that.
• 2:30
  Brigid Morgan: What I do want to say as well is that every family is unique.
• 2:35
  Brigid Morgan: Every former partner is different.
• 2:38
  Brigid Morgan: Every child is unique.
• 2:41
  Brigid Morgan: Every situation is unique.
• 2:44
  Brigid Morgan: So in this general overview today, it's just a starting point.
• 2:49
  Brigid Morgan: It's not a complete map.
• 2:51
  Brigid Morgan: The complete map has to be drawn with you for your specific situation and your specific child or children.
• 2:59
  Brigid Morgan: And that's where individual coaching comes in.
• 3:02
  Brigid Morgan: But more on that later.
• 3:04
  Brigid Morgan: For now, let's start with a simple question.
• 3:08
  Brigid Morgan: So have you ever fantasized about getting court orders for parenting?
• 3:14
  Brigid Morgan: Now, I know that sounds a little bit of a strange remark, but when you are in the thick of it, of a high conflict situation, and you are a child-focused protective parent, sometimes those core orders can feel a bit like a dream.
• 3:36
  Brigid Morgan: They it might be the thing that you aspire to or you would like to work towards.
• 3:44
  Brigid Morgan: Look, I'll be honest.
• 3:46
  Brigid Morgan: At one point in my situation, I absolutely fantasized about having core orders for parenting matters.
• 3:54
  Brigid Morgan: It was early in my separation, it was in the hardest, most frustrating moments of the process.
• 3:59
  Brigid Morgan: And I found myself falling into daydreams, imagining that I had this day when I'd have this document, this official, stamped, legally binding piece of paper that said, here is the arrangement.
• 4:15
  Brigid Morgan: These are the rules.
• 4:17
  Brigid Morgan: This is what's going to happen from now on.
• 4:20
  Brigid Morgan: Done.
• 4:21
  Brigid Morgan: That was the fantasy.
• 4:23
  Brigid Morgan: I thought it was almost a bit like some kind of golden ticket.
• 4:27
  Brigid Morgan: I I actually fantasized about putting it putting them in a frame and and putting them on the wall as something that I'd made it through, like an achievement, and also to signal that the uncertainty was over.
• 4:41
  Brigid Morgan: A decision had been made.
• 4:43
  Brigid Morgan: This is the end of the conflict.
• 4:44
  Brigid Morgan: We now have a framework and we can move forward and get on with our lives.
• 4:49
  Brigid Morgan: So I just wonder if you might be in a situation that's similar, or if you've felt something like that too.
• 4:57
  Brigid Morgan: Especially if you're in a high conflict situation, especially if you've experienced post-separation abuse, which is often a continuation of dynamics that are probably present throughout the relationship.
• 5:11
  Brigid Morgan: Maybe they've been normalized dynamics, or maybe they've been internalized.
• 5:16
  Brigid Morgan: Maybe these dynamics have been dismissed or overlooked.
• 5:20
  Brigid Morgan: But if you've experienced coercive control, gaslighting, darvo, manipulation just to name a few.
• 5:30
  Brigid Morgan: But these dynamics are where unpredictability itself is used as a weapon against you.
• 5:36
  Brigid Morgan: And of course, dreaming or fantasizing about something that becomes fixed or permanent or certain, it makes sense.
• 5:47
  Brigid Morgan: Of course you want that certainty.
• 5:50
  Brigid Morgan: Of course you want a piece of paper or or you know what the meaning of the that's behind that paper that says the decision has been made, this is the outcome, now we know what to do to move forward.
• 6:05
  Brigid Morgan: And sometimes we might even be hoping for that sense of justice that, you know, in that final orders, in those final orders, you can feel that you've been seen and heard and validated.
• 6:18
  Brigid Morgan: Now, even though there's a lot of compassion and empathy around wanting this or being honest with yourself about wanting it or dreaming or fantasizing, um, it it's not necessarily the best choice or the best path.
• 6:35
  Brigid Morgan: It's not a good reason to pursue formal court proceedings.
• 6:40
  Brigid Morgan: And that's one of the main reasons I thought it would be useful to unpack a bit of this in today's episode.
• 6:47
  Brigid Morgan: So what I've come to understand through my own lived experience, through research and education, and through working with our clients in the Danielle Black coaching ecosystem.
• 6:59
  Brigid Morgan: Here's the deal.
• 7:01
  Brigid Morgan: Court orders are just one pathway.
• 7:04
  Brigid Morgan: They are not the only option.
• 7:06
  Brigid Morgan: More importantly, I want to offer a reality check, and I am afraid that it is a bit of a harsh one.
• 7:14
  Brigid Morgan: But in reality, in Australia, court orders may not be what you actually hope them to be.
• 7:22
  Brigid Morgan: Even if you pursue them diligently, doggedly, at great cost, emotional cost, financial cost, in time and precious life energy, firstly, the outcome may not be what you hope for.
• 7:36
  Brigid Morgan: Secondly, even if you do get the outcome you hope for in those final formal parenting court orders, there is no way to legally enforce if they are breached, apart from returning to formal court proceedings.
• 7:58
  Brigid Morgan: Now, this is one of those situations where there are flaws in the family law system, especially here in Australia.
• 8:07
  Brigid Morgan: My misunderstanding about formal court orders was that once that I had that certainty, once I had the framework and I knew what was to be expected of me, that there would be a path, you know, of roses going forward.
• 8:23
  Brigid Morgan: There would be no more, you know, questions or challenges, that suddenly we would have an amicable working relationship, there would be nothing else to question.
• 8:34
  Brigid Morgan: That's not often the case.
• 8:37
  Brigid Morgan: In reality, if there are formal court orders, there is a strong possibility that they will be breached or ignored.
• 8:47
  Brigid Morgan: And unfortunately, I can't say it enough, in Australia, if there is a breach, the only enforcement that you have available to you is to re-engage in court proceedings.
• 9:01
  Brigid Morgan: And that means re-engaging in the system.
• 9:04
  Brigid Morgan: So I just want you to digest that for a moment.
• 9:08
  Brigid Morgan: Because right there the fantasy kind of starts to disintegrate.
• 9:13
  Brigid Morgan: Through this episode, I did want to explore that myth that you need the core orders for parenting to feel safe, protected, empowered, and to feel like you're able to parent well in a really difficult situation.
• 9:28
  Brigid Morgan: And I want to talk honestly about what these parenting orders can actually give you and what they don't.
• 9:35
  Brigid Morgan: I want to share what I've learned from my own situation and what it looks like to parent without them in this particular circumstance.
• 9:44
  Brigid Morgan: This approach is not right for every situation.
• 9:47
  Brigid Morgan: But I think there are a lot of protective parents out there who are court adverse, exhausted, and unable to co-parent amicably or cooperatively or collaboratively, despite their best attempts.
• 10:02
  Brigid Morgan: And if you're in that group right now and you're wondering if there's another way to make a solid pathway for a parenting arrangement to move forward, even in a high conflict situation, I'm here to tell you that there genuinely is.
• 10:19
  Brigid Morgan: A little bit about my story.
• 10:21
  Brigid Morgan: I've got some context to share.
• 10:23
  Brigid Morgan: I think it helps understand where I'm coming from.
• 10:27
  Brigid Morgan: So at the time of this recording, it's been about four and a half years since separation.
• 10:33
  Brigid Morgan: In my situation, it was sudden.
• 10:35
  Brigid Morgan: Uh, it became high conflict very quickly.
• 10:38
  Brigid Morgan: The post-separation abuse ran high and hard.
• 10:41
  Brigid Morgan: I was genuinely blindsided and overwhelmed.
• 10:45
  Brigid Morgan: I tried an amicable approach.
• 10:47
  Brigid Morgan: I tried to stay child focused despite my own grief, rage, confusion, anxiety, fear, and while navigating betrayal trauma.
• 11:00
  Brigid Morgan: I did my best to communicate clearly.
• 11:02
  Brigid Morgan: I educated myself, I sought out resources, I did all the things you're supposed to do.
• 11:08
  Brigid Morgan: And in fact, I almost did some things that I would have regretted very, very significantly to do with both parenting and finances.
• 11:20
  Brigid Morgan: I won't go into those details here, but let's just say when you're in that triggered, flooded, overwhelmed state, you can make some poor decisions.
• 11:30
  Brigid Morgan: And that's one of the biggest challenges about divorce and separation, particularly where there have been abusive dynamics or high conflict dynamics, and that is that you need to make the most calm, cognitive, regulated decisions when you are at your most dysregulated, overwhelmed, and flooded.
• 11:52
  Brigid Morgan: And something we talk about in the Danielle Black coaching framework is always about nervous system regulation because being calm and credible, not only as you present to other professionals, but also in your parenting and for yourself as you make decisions.
• 12:10
  Brigid Morgan: That has to be priority.
• 12:12
  Brigid Morgan: Calm, credible, regulated, building your capacity and having those skills and those tools is something we can certainly support you with.
• 12:22
  Brigid Morgan: I can't over express how necessary that is.
• 12:28
  Brigid Morgan: And we get it.
• 12:29
  Brigid Morgan: We get that it's hard, we get that it's challenging, and it almost seems impossible, and yet it must be done.
• 12:37
  Brigid Morgan: So back to my story about what's relevant to today's topic.
• 12:42
  Brigid Morgan: My son had significant additional needs which were undiagnosed at the time.
• 12:48
  Brigid Morgan: And I, as his primary caregiver since birth, knew that he needed support.
• 12:53
  Brigid Morgan: I was actively pursuing assessments and therapies.
• 12:57
  Brigid Morgan: I tried to communicate these things to his father.
• 13:01
  Brigid Morgan: I was met with, you know, minimizing accusations of micromanaging, uh accusations of trying to control his parenting style, active obstruction in the pursuit of therapies and diagnosis, dismissals, rebukes, enmeshment, all of the typical or textbook accusations that come when there is a primary caregiver who understands more about the child than the parent who is potentially seeking something like 50-50 care or more care than they ever had, perhaps even in the marital period or the period of the formal relationship.
• 13:43
  Brigid Morgan: So as a protective parent, I didn't have any of the language, skills, resources, or supports.
• 13:50
  Brigid Morgan: If you haven't guessed already, I did not find Danielle Black at this point.
• 13:55
  Brigid Morgan: And things turned quite significantly for me when I did.
• 13:59
  Brigid Morgan: But I knew in my heart and in my bones that the overnight care arrangements my former partner was proposing, which was 50-50, would not work for our son.
• 14:11
  Brigid Morgan: For a few reasons.
• 14:13
  Brigid Morgan: Number one, because of the care arrangements in themselves, the shift, the child development needs, and also, you know, everything to do with uh, you know, a child-focused perspective of why it wouldn't work for him, and adding the layer of the conflict of communication, the non-cooperation.
• 14:37
  Brigid Morgan: So, you know, there was just no way that we'd be able to make timely decisions about our son's care at a 50-50 arrangement.
• 14:48
  Brigid Morgan: My child has a right to.
• 14:50
  Brigid Morgan: He's entitled to have timely decisions made about his health care and his support needs.
• 14:55
  Brigid Morgan: And that's just one of the many things that can come out of, you know, retaining a status quo around a higher care percentage.
• 15:03
  Brigid Morgan: So I digress a little bit.
• 15:06
  Brigid Morgan: Um, I was definitely in a state of overwhelm and distress about my son's welfare.
• 15:10
  Brigid Morgan: I absolutely felt powerless.
• 15:13
  Brigid Morgan: And going about a year from the separation, I then took a step that I thought might provoke a negative response, which it did, and that was to initiate family dispute resolution through Relationships Australia.
• 15:27
  Brigid Morgan: There's plenty of places that you can access for mediation support.
• 15:32
  Brigid Morgan: There's free services, there's paid services.
• 15:36
  Brigid Morgan: What exactly is FDR?
• 15:38
  Brigid Morgan: Family dispute resolution, it's a neutral third-party mediator to help parents in this situation reach an agreement.
• 15:46
  Brigid Morgan: It works when there's a shared goal, genuine negotiability, and it is safe for both parties to be involved in the process.
• 15:54
  Brigid Morgan: When those conditions are not present, the process does not work.
• 16:00
  Brigid Morgan: My former partner and I did multiple rounds of mediation over the course of approximately two years.
• 16:08
  Brigid Morgan: In total, looking back, it's about 30 hours that I did, all conducted by Shuttle online for safety reasons.
• 16:15
  Brigid Morgan: It was long and laborious.
• 16:17
  Brigid Morgan: Me trying above and beyond to find a way because I thought the only other choice I had was to go through formal court proceedings.
• 16:26
  Brigid Morgan: So I was desperate to get this agreement through mediation.
• 16:31
  Brigid Morgan: I didn't know there was any other possibility, so I stuck it out, even though it was traumatic.
• 16:38
  Brigid Morgan: It was traumatic to go through that many hours of an unworkable attempt at collaboration or communication.
• 16:47
  Brigid Morgan: I found that my former partner was very rigid, fixed in his position.
• 16:53
  Brigid Morgan: We'd spend hours, one whole session, one whole three and a half hour mediation process.
• 16:59
  Brigid Morgan: We came up with one single sentence of agreement, and that was both parties agree to engage in further mediation.
• 17:07
  Brigid Morgan: Now that is a glorious waste of time, and I can only say that in hindsight.
• 17:12
  Brigid Morgan: At the time I was just lost, just lost.
• 17:18
  Brigid Morgan: No one deserves to go through that amount of time and torture to just have it prolonged with another attempt.
• 17:26
  Brigid Morgan: Again, these are things that we can absolutely coach you and support you with.
• 17:31
  Brigid Morgan: If you did want to consider mediation, if you did, if you were uncertain about how long you should engage in the process, or how to strategize well or optimize your outcome in a mediation process, coaching would be of great benefit.
• 17:46
  Brigid Morgan: I didn't have any of that at the time I was in this point in my journey, but looking back, I've definitely learned a lot since.
• 17:54
  Brigid Morgan: So eventually the service, as I mentioned, we used Relationships Australia Victoria, where I'm based, and there are some wonderful government or community-based organizations as well, but they deemed us unsuitable in the final leg of the two years, and we got our 60i certificate.
• 18:17
  Brigid Morgan: They basically dismissed us, saying that we were unsuitable.
• 18:21
  Brigid Morgan: And at that point, there was yeah, there was a bit of a standstill.
• 18:26
  Brigid Morgan: We'd we had managed to come up with a very short, um, very loose sort of parenting arrangements framework, a parenting plan.
• 18:35
  Brigid Morgan: I'll come back to that in a moment because this is a very key element of what I'm what I'm talking about, parenting without court orders, that you it doesn't mean that you have nothing to work with.
• 18:46
  Brigid Morgan: It means that maybe you have a basic framework or maybe you have a partially completed agreement or plan.
• 18:54
  Brigid Morgan: So we did have that because obviously we needed to have some some framework of how we were going to care for our child.
• 19:04
  Brigid Morgan: Uh so really the mediation was about progressing out of the current arrangements, which were the status quo at the time, and that's something really important to remember as well.
• 19:17
  Brigid Morgan: A status quo means that um it's a it's a precedent that's been set, often in formal court proceedings or in these high conflict situations.
• 19:28
  Brigid Morgan: It is very challenging to go back.
• 19:31
  Brigid Morgan: So it is always better to hold your ground if you are a protective parent and you firmly believe that the current arrangements are you know the best case scenario for your your child, uh, but maybe the other party is asking for more time.
• 19:49
  Brigid Morgan: It is always better to hold your ground until you know you have some kind of formal intervention that says that you must give more time versus allowing more time and then saying, you know, we can sort it out later and go back to the original arrangement.
• 20:07
  Brigid Morgan: So status quo basically is a way of saying, well, if it's working, we're not going to change it.
• 20:13
  Brigid Morgan: So you can always increase time if you have to, because of the way things are unfolding in your particular situation.
• 20:23
  Brigid Morgan: But it's very hard to change things back to less care time.
• 20:28
  Brigid Morgan: So just putting a little pin in that as well is the concept of status quo.
• 20:34
  Brigid Morgan: So I had managed to retain status quo as primary caregiver throughout the two years of the mediation process using that basic parenting plan that we had drafted very early in the mediation process.
• 20:49
  Brigid Morgan: And then what we were unable to move further on was that progress to a higher care or equal care uh arrangement.
• 20:57
  Brigid Morgan: So that never that never unfolded, but it took a lot of time and effort to uh to get there.
• 21:03
  Brigid Morgan: So just coming back to this idea that a lot of parents at a point, perhaps, and this is what I felt as well, in your mediation, you might feel like you have no other choice.
• 21:16
  Brigid Morgan: That if at the mediation stage you either need to give in and accept what the other parent is asking for, mediating for what they want, even knowing that what they're asking for isn't child-focused and not in the best interest of your child or children, or the only other choice is to file for court proceedings.
• 21:38
  Brigid Morgan: So some parents might feel that they need something in writing, something on paper, something agreed, something signed by both parties.
• 21:46
  Brigid Morgan: Other parents or protective parents might find themselves really frightened that if they don't agree, the other parent will initiate the court proceedings.
• 21:55
  Brigid Morgan: Some protective parents do choose to initiate the proceedings themselves.
• 21:59
  Brigid Morgan: Especially where the other parent is refusing to acknowledge the children's need.
• 22:05
  Brigid Morgan: Generally, there's a lot of uncertainty about what the process involves, what the next steps are, questions, you might have questions about what parenting orders are in general, what they can actually achieve.
• 22:18
  Brigid Morgan: And there is that gap space between completing mediation but it being unsuccessful.
• 22:26
  Brigid Morgan: So perhaps in a less high conflict, or, you know, let's just dream for a moment.
• 22:33
  Brigid Morgan: I'm assuming that if you're listening, you're not in this, you know, ideal space of an amicable separation.
• 22:42
  Brigid Morgan: In an amicable separation where two healthy, mature, reasonable adults can collaborate and communicate and cooperate.
• 22:52
  Brigid Morgan: That's the that's the fertile ground for a you know an amicable parenting arrangement.
• 22:59
  Brigid Morgan: That's where mediation usually works best.
• 23:02
  Brigid Morgan: You can come out with an agreement both parties are happy about because they both feel that it's in the child's best interests.
• 23:09
  Brigid Morgan: You've got some choices there.
• 23:11
  Brigid Morgan: You can just leave that good faith agreement in place, you can formalize it and sign it, you can actually submit that agreement to the court through a lawyer, have it sealed by the court, which basically means they become court orders for parenting.
• 23:26
  Brigid Morgan: So basically you've made your own rather than you've had to engage in any sort of litigation or any kind of you've done the negotiations, you've got the agreement, you can just go get it stamped and have your parenting orders based on the amicable arrangement.
• 23:39
  Brigid Morgan: So the catch 22 is that if you are in an amicable co-parenting situation, you've been able to communicate in a healthy way, you're both reasonable.
• 23:48
  Brigid Morgan: Number one, you probably wouldn't need to have them as sealed documents because a good faith agreement will stand.
• 23:55
  Brigid Morgan: You're amicable, right?
• 23:56
  Brigid Morgan: You're cooperating, you're collaborating.
• 23:58
  Brigid Morgan: Uh, secondly, uh, like I referred to before, if you're listening to this podcast, it's highly unlikely that you are in that situation.
• 24:05
  Brigid Morgan: I think it's just worth noting that all the situations are different, but we are speaking to a specific community here, and uh that is for those of us navigating the high conflict um circumstances.
• 24:19
  Brigid Morgan: For myself, family court was not a financial option.
• 24:22
  Brigid Morgan: I did access a lot of community legal consultations for general guidance.
• 24:27
  Brigid Morgan: I was eligible for legal aid, but I was there quietly getting my ducks in a row, having that moment, that panic between unsuccessful mediation and what next.
• 24:39
  Brigid Morgan: So I was getting my research together and making a plan, but that was fortunately when I found Danielle Black, and she was my primary coach through these initial stages of that next step phase.
• 24:56
  Brigid Morgan: And with support from Danielle and then the broader coaching, Danielle Black coaching framework and ecosystem, including the incredible document known as the Blueprint, which didn't exist when I first joined the community, but has since become an invaluable resource, which I could not recommend more highly.
• 25:19
  Brigid Morgan: And you can you can see in the show notes and on our website more about that.
• 25:25
  Brigid Morgan: But the blueprint basically answers a lot of the questions that I had going through this situation, but that Danielle answered for me as well, you know, in the one-to-one coaching space that I then engaged in.
• 25:39
  Brigid Morgan: Essentially, what Danielle and I were able to do was to look at what I had achieved already through the two years at this point, two and a half years perhaps, of the negotiation process.
• 25:52
  Brigid Morgan: Very strong status quo established with me as primary caregiver.
• 25:56
  Brigid Morgan: My son had since then been diagnosed as neurodiverse, was able to access some NDIS supports and therapies.
• 26:06
  Brigid Morgan: I was able to take on some major decision making in that process without formally having any sole parental responsibility.
• 26:16
  Brigid Morgan: But at the same time, there were some changes happening in the Family Law Act, which I will come back to in a moment.
• 26:22
  Brigid Morgan: Our agreement was pretty, pretty rough, pretty bare bones.
• 26:28
  Brigid Morgan: It was a care schedule, and it outlined some special time like holidays and some contingencies, and that was it.
• 26:39
  Brigid Morgan: Like there's a really very, very incomplete.
• 26:42
  Brigid Morgan: And I I always sort of likened it to um this image of peers or women I had come to know in the circle of navigating this, who were going through similar things at the time, who had engaged court proceedings, had lawyers, had a legal team, and they were getting their parenting orders.
• 27:05
  Brigid Morgan: And I was like, you've got a superhighway, like a bridge across this gorge, and it's like a concrete, you know, pillar-based suspension bridge, four-lane highway.
• 27:15
  Brigid Morgan: And I am on one of those rickety old rope bridge with a couple of missing planks, and um, you know, it's just swinging with some frayed, frayed edges there on the on the rope end.
• 27:28
  Brigid Morgan: And I I felt like that was comparatively parenting with orders and parenting without orders.
• 27:34
  Brigid Morgan: But I've since come to learn that um, even though my little bridge is pretty bare bones, that it in my situation has offered a lot of flexibility, and along with the education, the skill building, the capacity building, I've been able to optimize that as an outcome and leverage some of the flexibility that it offers.
• 27:56
  Brigid Morgan: It does require also high ethical work as well in terms of parental transparency, and you know, I I will unpack all of that in a future episode: boundaries around communication, what's expected, what's appropriate, what's right for um in general.
• 28:13
  Brigid Morgan: And again, we have to keep this a bit overview because everyone's situation is so unique.
• 28:19
  Brigid Morgan: Anyway, plans don't always go to plans.
• 28:22
  Brigid Morgan: Uh, my dreams of either getting my parenting orders by consent, so having an agreement for mediation and submitting them to the court for getting them formalized, that didn't go to plan.
• 28:36
  Brigid Morgan: That that didn't happen.
• 28:38
  Brigid Morgan: And I was pretty scared and I was pretty devastated and very confused.
• 28:42
  Brigid Morgan: So something I want to say is that you can change your mind if you are in a situation where you have mediation and you've come out with an agreement.
• 28:55
  Brigid Morgan: Maybe it's you know not as solid or fleshed out as you would hope it to be, but it's workable.
• 29:03
  Brigid Morgan: You can always change your mind at any time if the circumstances warrant it.
• 29:08
  Brigid Morgan: So without formal parenting orders, your plan is essentially a good faith agreement.
• 29:15
  Brigid Morgan: You can make that work for you as long as you are truly child focused.
• 29:19
  Brigid Morgan: It's just really important to remember that court professionals are often reluctant to make significant changes to long-standing care arrangements.
• 29:29
  Brigid Morgan: Other things that are really important when you're parenting without a formal structure or the core orders to guide you.
• 29:37
  Brigid Morgan: You want to make sure that you are operating with clear communication boundaries, you're understanding what you can and cannot control, and you're always staying on top of your documentation, whether that's through a formal parenting app that does the documentation time and date stamp for you, or whether it's your own process through a different type of logging app or just emailing yourself.
• 30:04
  Brigid Morgan: Some people set up a special email that they just email their notes to and that automatically time date stamps.
• 30:11
  Brigid Morgan: Whatever works for you.
• 30:13
  Brigid Morgan: There's lots of different processes and formats and styles, but documenting observable facts about, you know, what's going on in the situation, how they impact your child and the time and the date is really important throughout this process.
• 30:30
  Brigid Morgan: Cannot, again, stress more highly the power of documentation.
• 30:35
  Brigid Morgan: It's like a long, slow burn.
• 30:36
  Brigid Morgan: You don't think that it's doing much, but when you need it, it is a really, really powerful asset to have.
• 30:44
  Brigid Morgan: So if you haven't started your documentation now, start where you're at.
• 30:49
  Brigid Morgan: If you've got a documentation process, keep it going.
• 30:52
  Brigid Morgan: One of the things that you can't control is how the other parent parents your child, but you can control how you parent.
• 31:02
  Brigid Morgan: And that is a really important uh topic as well.
• 31:06
  Brigid Morgan: And parallel parenting is another little sidestep, just so when you know that we use these terms, sometimes you can get caught up in the lingo.
• 31:16
  Brigid Morgan: And I just want to make sure that everyone knows when we use these terms what we're actually talking about.
• 31:22
  Brigid Morgan: And parallel parenting is what happens when co-parenting or collaborative parenting is not safe or possible, which in high conflict situation is more often than not.
• 31:34
  Brigid Morgan: Um, it means disengaging from the other parent while staying deeply engaged with your child.
• 31:39
  Brigid Morgan: And it is not a share it is a shared focus on the child without requiring a relationship between the adults.
• 31:47
  Brigid Morgan: So that's really important to note that particularly if you are in a primary caregiver role and you are able to maintain clear boundaries and you operate in a parallel parenting style.
• 32:02
  Brigid Morgan: So that can mean things like minimal contact or minimal communication with the other parent, which will reduce or minimize or mitigate conflict.
• 32:11
  Brigid Morgan: Minimizing conflict is uh it is good for your child and it is good for you.
• 32:16
  Brigid Morgan: So if you have to minimize contact in order to minimize conflict, then that is okay.
• 32:23
  Brigid Morgan: That is a good goal to work towards.
• 32:25
  Brigid Morgan: And there's a whole arena of things that come up here when we look at decision making for a child or for children.
• 32:35
  Brigid Morgan: And that is a uh that is a very complex topic, and again, I'm gonna circle back to that in a moment.
• 32:42
  Brigid Morgan: But what I have learned on this journey, and I want to communicate that super clear, is that you are so much more empowered as a soul parent than you realize.
• 32:52
  Brigid Morgan: I didn't realize, and I had to step into that and live that reality, and I can tell you a thousand percent, you have a lot more power and influence as a soul parent than you think you may have.
• 33:08
  Brigid Morgan: And when I say this, I'm talking about that deep, authentic, loving connection that you have with your child or children.
• 33:17
  Brigid Morgan: Okay?
• 33:17
  Brigid Morgan: Nothing can shift that.
• 33:19
  Brigid Morgan: Nothing can take that away from you.
• 33:21
  Brigid Morgan: Nothing that the other parent does can take that away from you.
• 33:25
  Brigid Morgan: That is what you have control over.
• 33:27
  Brigid Morgan: All right, it's how you parent, how you connect with your child.
• 33:32
  Brigid Morgan: You can't control, and I might be repeating myself here, but this is this is the you know, this is the crux of it all.
• 33:39
  Brigid Morgan: You have to realize, particularly in parallel parenting, but in any situation, you really can't control what the other parent does.
• 33:47
  Brigid Morgan: But you can you can kind of mitigate it, you can you can offset it, you can lean in, right?
• 33:54
  Brigid Morgan: You can make it your your voice is stronger because it is connected, not because it's louder, not because it's, you know, um it's right.
• 34:04
  Brigid Morgan: It's not even right.
• 34:05
  Brigid Morgan: It's it's still your style of parenting, but don't ever fear that the influence you can have on your child and children.
• 34:14
  Brigid Morgan: Don't ever be afraid that it's lessened because you now have a shared care parenting arrangement and you have no control or influence over what the other parent does.
• 34:23
  Brigid Morgan: You have to let that go.
• 34:24
  Brigid Morgan: That has to be in the radical acceptance part of your journey, what the other parent is doing.
• 34:29
  Brigid Morgan: And and I say this, you know, with the caveat, of course, that there are no genuine safety concerns, uh, that there's, you know, no violence, there's no substance misuse happening, there's appropriate places, safety for the child to sleep and to live and to be.
• 34:48
  Brigid Morgan: That is in a different realm.
• 34:50
  Brigid Morgan: I'm not talking about those situations.
• 34:52
  Brigid Morgan: I'm talking about a share care parenting situation where you're worried about the type of dinner that the other parent is cooking or how often the other parent showers the child or helps them to bathe.
• 35:05
  Brigid Morgan: Yes, these are important things.
• 35:08
  Brigid Morgan: They are important, of course they matter, and that's why you, as a soul parent, you prioritize them because you love your child and you put your child first.
• 35:17
  Brigid Morgan: You you you focus on their best interests, you you know the level of hygiene, you know the level of nutrition, exercise, peer connection, their developmental needs, their you know, play needs, needs for touch and contact, comfort, um, you know, sunlight, vitamin D.
• 35:35
  Brigid Morgan: Like, you know all of this.
• 35:36
  Brigid Morgan: You are the protective parent.
• 35:38
  Brigid Morgan: You know it.
• 35:40
  Brigid Morgan: What I'm saying is that you can't force or control the other parents' choices.
• 35:45
  Brigid Morgan: They might not parent the way, and it's very likely that they won't parent the way that you think is best for your child.
• 35:51
  Brigid Morgan: And as long as your child is safe, right?
• 35:54
  Brigid Morgan: As long as there are no genuine safety concerns, you have to let that go.
• 35:59
  Brigid Morgan: You can't, you just have to step away from that.
• 36:02
  Brigid Morgan: And what works is that you lean into what you are empowered to do.
• 36:07
  Brigid Morgan: And I I do, I really do.
• 36:09
  Brigid Morgan: I feel like I can promise you this because I've experienced it, I've seen it, I've seen it working with clients, I've seen it in our ecosystem.
• 36:17
  Brigid Morgan: It is true.
• 36:18
  Brigid Morgan: You are very, very empowered to have a positive impact and influence on your child and your children's lives as a soul parent.
• 36:26
  Brigid Morgan: It really is true.
• 36:28
  Brigid Morgan: Um, on my journey, I have been fostering that deep authentic connection with my son.
• 36:33
  Brigid Morgan: I practice presence and repair, I upskill as a parent, and I care for myself so that I can show up for him.
• 36:40
  Brigid Morgan: And that is the real power in this situation.
• 36:44
  Brigid Morgan: So I want to be clear, I don't have it all figured out.
• 36:47
  Brigid Morgan: Parenting in a high conflict situation is genuinely hard.
• 36:51
  Brigid Morgan: And there are days when it is really hard.
• 36:54
  Brigid Morgan: And I found that parenting from a place of clarity, child focus, and intention rather than fear and reactivity, has made all the difference for both me and my son, right?
• 37:06
  Brigid Morgan: And I and I wish that for you as well.
• 37:08
  Brigid Morgan: And that is why, again, we talk about this uh nervous system regulation and this credibility, this calmness is so important.
• 37:16
  Brigid Morgan: You're you know, you turning up for yourself and you turning up for your child and your children.
• 37:23
  Brigid Morgan: I'm aware that some of this might seem a little bit repetitive, but it is complex territory and there is a lot of content, a lot of information, a lot to get your head around.
• 37:34
  Brigid Morgan: Um but essentially I I want to land on this idea that you know there is no um dream or fantasy about the parenting court orders that solve all the problems and remove all the conflict.
• 37:49
  Brigid Morgan: Your former partner, if they were high conflict or they had a parenting style that was, you know, opposite to yours or um not collaborative with yours, it's none of that's going to change because you suddenly have court orders, right?
• 38:07
  Brigid Morgan: Um the orders can give you a sense of a formal, legally binding framework, um, dates, times, schedules, conditions, provisions, things like travel, um, travel arrangements, passport restrictions.
• 38:22
  Brigid Morgan: Uh court orders can be really good for clarity and finality on the basics of the arrangement.
• 38:28
  Brigid Morgan: Uh, court orders can give specific protective conditions where needed, and that is really important.
• 38:35
  Brigid Morgan: If you are in a situation where that isn't that is relevant.
• 38:40
  Brigid Morgan: So, again, we're thinking of safety issues, substance abuse, in any kind of inappropriate or concerns for capacity to care for the child.
• 38:51
  Brigid Morgan: So those protective conditions in court orders, absolutely 100%, really valid, really important.
• 38:58
  Brigid Morgan: What we try to communicate is that there's actually no kind of court orders police in Australia.
• 39:05
  Brigid Morgan: And that's something that I think, you know, is under discussed, as I said when I opened.
• 39:10
  Brigid Morgan: And it's very disappointing.
• 39:12
  Brigid Morgan: It means that you could go the length of this journey, either financially invested yourself or through uh, you know, supports like legal aid or self-representing.
• 39:24
  Brigid Morgan: So that's something to bear in mind that there are no court orders police in Australia, that enforcement doesn't happen as part of, you know, the arrangement when you got the formal orders delivered.
• 39:39
  Brigid Morgan: Uh the only way to enforce a breach or to get them changed is to go back, and that will cost you in time, money, energy, etc.
• 39:48
  Brigid Morgan: In practice, many parents are not in a position to do that.
• 39:51
  Brigid Morgan: Going back to court is expensive, time consuming, and can be very traumatizing.
• 39:57
  Brigid Morgan: Not always, though, I want to make sure that you know that sometimes court process can be your best choice.
• 40:04
  Brigid Morgan: You know, we just want to get on with our lives and enjoy our children and do our parenting work and be humans in the world, right?
• 40:14
  Brigid Morgan: So constantly engaging in these litigations or the the systems abuse of going around and around.
• 40:24
  Brigid Morgan: I just want to make sure that in practice, parents with court orders are in s to some extent still relying on a quote-unquote good faith agreement.
• 40:37
  Brigid Morgan: Um so the orders are there, but the enforcement still requires you to act again in a legal arena, and that action has a cost.
• 40:44
  Brigid Morgan: So whether you have a parenting plan from a mediation or just a status quo that came from the relationship period through to the post-separation period, or you have co-orders, essentially it's an agreement banking on everyone, all parties involved, kind of playing by the rules.
• 41:06
  Brigid Morgan: Now, with co-orders, you do have the the formal seal of the court.
• 41:12
  Brigid Morgan: They are legally binding, but in Australia, the only way to take action against that is to go back through the proceedings of court.
• 41:21
  Brigid Morgan: There's one more thing that's worth sitting with before we head towards a wrap-up.
• 41:25
  Brigid Morgan: And again, like I said, this is a super complex topic, and you know, lots of other side quests I am noting to do in future parts on this, but I don't want to overwhelm you all while you're here.
• 41:37
  Brigid Morgan: Just want to mention a few things that sometimes things can get missed off-court orders altogether.
• 41:43
  Brigid Morgan: I actually have peers, friends that this has happened to, but once the orders are made and sealed, that item, that issue, that concern is no longer on the table unless you go back to court.
• 41:56
  Brigid Morgan: So they have just missed out.
• 41:58
  Brigid Morgan: Lawyers aren't perfect, and legal teams can make mistakes.
• 42:02
  Brigid Morgan: There's a lot happening in negotiation tables, and sometimes even the legal team may agree with you that they that an item should be on the orders, and yeah, maybe it's a mistake or maybe it gets deprioritized.
• 42:18
  Brigid Morgan: Uh, so that can happen.
• 42:20
  Brigid Morgan: And there's actually some other flaws that can happen within parenting court orders as well.
• 42:27
  Brigid Morgan: Sometimes uh there can be restrictions that come from it.
• 42:32
  Brigid Morgan: If every single detail is locked down into this uh agreement, um, in high conflict situations, this detailed you know, list of orders can give the other parent more to work with, more levers to pull, every provision can be a potential trigger point, and they can be leveraged against you.
• 42:54
  Brigid Morgan: A lot of these core orders are reciprocal in nature, so you have to be willing to agree to what is allowed for the other parent as they vice versa to you.
• 43:04
  Brigid Morgan: Often in these situations, we're not dealing with mature, healthy, regulated individuals, and they may be looking for ways to weaponize some of these conditions against us.
• 43:15
  Brigid Morgan: So, you know, one example uh for my situation again, I didn't have formal orders, but in the mediation process I was very aware of uh anything that I might do that could be considered bad parenting or or that would be held against me.
• 43:34
  Brigid Morgan: And I had read somewhere that punctuality to school was a really important uh element, and I am a diligent parent, but I got to the point where I felt like I was parenting under a microscope, and I was so terrified of being even five minutes late.
• 43:51
  Brigid Morgan: And I do remember this.
• 43:52
  Brigid Morgan: I remember walking my son to school, and we got to the crossing guard, and we'd missed the we'd missed the light.
• 43:59
  Brigid Morgan: And I was just in a panic and I was dysregulated.
• 44:04
  Brigid Morgan: And what happened in that moment?
• 44:07
  Brigid Morgan: I was so triggered, traumatized, stressed that I couldn't be a good present parent.
• 44:11
  Brigid Morgan: I actually broke down in front of the crossing guard because we were like five minutes late to school.
• 44:18
  Brigid Morgan: And fortunately, you know, I was able to gather myself together and repair with my son and be calm for him.
• 44:26
  Brigid Morgan: On my way back after dropping him off, I had a hug with the crossing guard and thanked her for her compassion and support.
• 44:33
  Brigid Morgan: What a lovely human being.
• 44:35
  Brigid Morgan: And I was able to come home and, you know, just work out what had gone on for me.
• 44:41
  Brigid Morgan: And later when I'd come into the Daniel Black coaching framework, I realized that that feeling of hyper-vigilance, of being always under the microscope for every parenting decision I was making, because I felt like I could lose everything at any moment, that was debilitating.
• 45:00
  Brigid Morgan: And I wouldn't wish that on anyone.
• 45:02
  Brigid Morgan: So again, a lot of this work is about educating you so that you can make informed decisions about not only how you parent, but how you move through this post-separation period, how you can optimize the outcome using strategy and knowledge, as well as your capacity being built and strengthened in the process so that things can land in a child-focused way to support the best interests of your child.
• 45:32
  Brigid Morgan: So this is one of the reasons, just one of the reasons that so many parents work with the coaches in the Daniel Black coaching ecosystem.
• 45:42
  Brigid Morgan: We've got a really deep understanding of these experiences and about what parenting plans and parenting orders involved.
• 45:50
  Brigid Morgan: We know what to consider, we know it intimately and we know it evidence-based.
• 45:57
  Brigid Morgan: And we understand controlling conflictual co-parenting situations.
• 46:02
  Brigid Morgan: A lot of law professionals, family law professionals, do not have that depth of understanding.
• 46:09
  Brigid Morgan: They are there to achieve an outcome.
• 46:11
  Brigid Morgan: Same with mediators.
• 46:13
  Brigid Morgan: They are neutral third parties and they are trained and skilled, but they are not there to listen to the case.
• 46:19
  Brigid Morgan: They're there to to to your case.
• 46:22
  Brigid Morgan: They're there to help the two parents communicate and come to a decision.
• 46:27
  Brigid Morgan: They have no decision-making power, right?
• 46:29
  Brigid Morgan: So if you already struggle to communicate or to agree, mediation may or may not help you.
• 46:37
  Brigid Morgan: And again, that's something to unpack in an individual session or to do your own research through the blueprint, which is an incredible resource.
• 46:46
  Brigid Morgan: But these are the kinds of things that you want to understand before you make decisions about what path you're going to go down, court or no court, mediation, no mediation.
• 46:56
  Brigid Morgan: These are the things you want to understand before you, you know, you decide even what arrangements might look like.
• 47:04
  Brigid Morgan: Not even how to make an agreement with the other, with the other parent, but what do they look like?
• 47:10
  Brigid Morgan: What is actually best for your child?
• 47:12
  Brigid Morgan: So some things are never going to be truly enforceable, but you can manage your expectations, optimize your outcome, and retain your position as a protective parent who is genuinely child-focused.
• 47:29
  Brigid Morgan: I used to think that the core orders, the parenting orders, would give me certainty and they would have my back, and I wouldn't have any more problems once I had them.
• 47:39
  Brigid Morgan: But I have come to understand that for many parents it's an appearance of certainty, and the reality is still actually very messy and unpredictable.
• 47:49
  Brigid Morgan: Basically, because the other parent is still who they are, orders or not.
• 47:54
  Brigid Morgan: In upcoming episodes, I will unpack a little bit more of the practical nitty-gritties of how to make this work, specific strategies, practices, and approaches.
• 48:05
  Brigid Morgan: There's lots of things to think about, lots of ways to protect your own well-being as well as retain that position of protective parenting.
• 48:13
  Brigid Morgan: And again, I'll just repeat that one of the most powerful things that I've learned through experience and through education here at Daniel Black Coaching is about leaning into your role as the primary caregiver, owning the influence that you actually have, which is so significant.
• 48:29
  Brigid Morgan: Research shows that a child or children only needs one healthy, present, attuned caregiver to thrive.
• 48:39
  Brigid Morgan: And if this is resonating with you, that healthy, present, aligned parent is very likely you.
• 48:45
  Brigid Morgan: So we will go deeper into that in the future.
• 48:49
  Brigid Morgan: There are situations where formal court orders are important, including but not limited to.
• 48:56
  Brigid Morgan: If there is a real present risk of the other parent retaining or withholding a child or not returning them to you.
• 49:02
  Brigid Morgan: If there is a risk of the other parent relocating interstate or internationally without your consent, you need legal advice and real support.
• 49:11
  Brigid Morgan: If the other parent's parenting capacity is so seriously compromised that specific protective conditions need to be formalized, such as professional supervision, regular drug testing, alcohol testing prior to transitions, and so on, you need advice and real support.
• 49:29
  Brigid Morgan: If you do not hold primary care and arrangements are genuinely contested and unstable, the status quo protection I've been describing throughout the episode doesn't apply in the same way.
• 49:40
  Brigid Morgan: You need advice and real support.
• 49:43
  Brigid Morgan: That said, and this is important, some of the above can actually be implemented without parenting orders.
• 49:51
  Brigid Morgan: For example, a primary parent can refuse to facilitate the children's spending time or overnight time with the other parent until that parent provides a clean hair follicle test or purchase a breathalyzer device and provides a zero reading before changeovers.
• 50:07
  Brigid Morgan: Also, professionally supervised time can be insisted upon without parenting orders.
• 50:14
  Brigid Morgan: The other parent can initiate proceedings if they're unhappy, but it's important that parents know you don't have to wait for court orders to put these protections in place.
• 50:24
  Brigid Morgan: It's also worth noting that a lot of our clients are the respondent, meaning that the former partner is the one who's initiated the court proceedings.
• 50:34
  Brigid Morgan: Now, if that's your situation, please do reach out.
• 50:38
  Brigid Morgan: We are here to help.
• 50:40
  Brigid Morgan: And no podcast episode, including this one, for as as kind of rambling and shambolic as it is, trying to communicate a wealth of knowledge, experience, and understanding, and that's why I've had to break them up into several.
• 50:54
  Brigid Morgan: But no podcast episode is a substitute for prop advice about what's right for you.
• 50:59
  Brigid Morgan: Don't ever feel that you need to give in or be pressurized or bullied.
• 51:05
  Brigid Morgan: You are the protective parent, you are the one who understands your child best.
• 51:12
  Brigid Morgan: So please do reach out for one-to-one coaching that can really help you with unpacking whether this parenting without orders might be a viable and beneficial option for you.
• 51:25
  Brigid Morgan: Every relational dynamic is different.
• 51:27
  Brigid Morgan: What I hope is that you come away with permission to question the assumption, if you had one or if anyone's pressurizing you to have one, that court orders are automatically the right path.
• 51:41
  Brigid Morgan: We here at Daniel Black Coaching just want you to be able to make an informed decision.
• 51:45
  Brigid Morgan: Permission to sit with your own situation and ask, what does protection actually look like for me?
• 51:51
  Brigid Morgan: What arrangement genuinely serves my child or children?
• 51:55
  Brigid Morgan: And what would it mean to parent from a place of intention and clarity rather than fear?
• 52:00
  Brigid Morgan: There are so many more ways to get through this experience.
• 52:04
  Brigid Morgan: And again, you are not alone.
• 52:07
  Brigid Morgan: You are never alone.
• 52:08
  Brigid Morgan: I wanted to also just reference episode 95.
• 52:12
  Brigid Morgan: It's the collaboration question: when it works and when it doesn't.
• 52:17
  Brigid Morgan: So collaboration is often presented as the gold standard after separation.
• 52:23
  Brigid Morgan: Parents are encouraged to communicate openly, to compromise, to work together, and to have a collaborative approach.
• 52:31
  Brigid Morgan: Now, when that is possible, yes, it can be an incredibly beneficial process.
• 52:38
  Brigid Morgan: However, if you are in a high conflict situation where cooperative, clear, honest, collaborative communication and practices is not possible, then this is not a pathway to pursue.
• 52:55
  Brigid Morgan: I encourage you to listen to episode 95 for more on that.
• 53:00
  Brigid Morgan: That's it for me.
• 53:02
  Brigid Morgan: Thank you so much for being here today and listening to this episode.
• 53:06
  Brigid Morgan: This topic sits so close to my heart, and I hope something in it has been useful for you, or at least it's opened a door to questions that you can reflect on, or some options that you might be able to consider and sit with.
• 53:22
  Brigid Morgan: So just a gentle reminder that this episode is educational in nature.
• 53:27
  Brigid Morgan: It's not legal advice and it's not therapy, but it is designed to help you think more clearly and strategically about your situation and to know that you are not alone in navigating it.
• 53:38
  Brigid Morgan: I look forward to connecting with you again soon.
• 53:41
  Brigid Morgan: Thanks so much for listening.
• 53:44
  Danielle Black: A big thank you to Bridget for her contribution on the Post-Separation Abuse podcast this week.
• 53:50
  Danielle Black: And I know I'm not the only one who's going to be looking forward to hearing from Bridget again, particularly on this really important topic of parenting without orders.
• 54:00
  Danielle Black: I wanted to provide some additional information and insight on this topic because it's something that we have extensive experience with here at Daniel Black Coaching.
• 54:11
  Danielle Black: In fact, many of our clients over the years and currently are parenting without court orders.
• 54:19
  Danielle Black: And that's in fact how many people come to us initially, even if they later on end up in the court system.
• 54:26
  Danielle Black: And as Bridget mentioned, the vast majority of our clients who have ever been in the court system or are currently in the court system tend to be the respondents in court proceedings, which means that their former partner is the one who has initiated the proceedings.
• 54:44
  Danielle Black: Part of why this ends up being the case, you might be curious about this, is because we are very court averse here at Danielle Black Coaching.
• 54:54
  Danielle Black: We do take the view that litigation and court proceedings should be a last resort.
• 55:02
  Danielle Black: We take the view that there are many things that can be implemented without needing to go to court to engage in expensive and lengthy litigation, and Brigid touched on some of those during her episode.
• 55:17
  Danielle Black: She mentioned the hair follicle testing, the use of personal breathalyzer devices such as backtrack if there's a concern with the non-primary caregivers' alcohol consumption or the use of other substances.
• 55:33
  Danielle Black: She mentioned the fact that supervised time at a professional children's contact centre can also be implemented without there being parenting orders in place.
• 55:44
  Danielle Black: Now I know what some of you might be thinking, and that is, but Danielle, there's absolutely no way that my former partner would agree to that.
• 55:56
  Danielle Black: And this is why I'm jumping in.
• 56:00
  Danielle Black: What to do when your former partner is insisting on something that you don't think is safe or appropriate, that you are wanting to hold firm on something that you think provides that safety and that mitigation of harm to your kids, but you can't come to agreement.
• 56:20
  Danielle Black: That's a reality that so many of our clients have faced.
• 56:24
  Danielle Black: Let's be honest.
• 56:26
  Danielle Black: You could be putting forward in mediation that you want all parenting time to begin with a date and time stamped 0.00 blood alcohol reading before the children's time with that parent commences, for example.
• 56:43
  Danielle Black: Are they likely to agree to that either just in communication with you or in mediation?
• 56:49
  Danielle Black: Fuck no, they're not.
• 56:51
  Danielle Black: The vast majority of them are not.
• 56:54
  Danielle Black: They're going to insist that they don't actually have a problem, that you're imagining things, that your sense of what's an appropriate amount of alcohol is way off base, that you're manufacturing things, on and on and on it goes.
• 57:07
  Danielle Black: I know I'm not telling you anything that you don't already know.
• 57:10
  Danielle Black: So then we have a bit of a stalemate, what next?
• 57:13
  Danielle Black: Well, many, many parents make the mistake of thinking that their only options then are to engage with lawyers, to engage in back and forth legal correspondence, to initiate court proceedings potentially, or to just simply give up and comply with what the other parent is seeking or with what they're willing to do, or okay, well if you won't agree to the safety measures, I guess we don't get to have the safety measures.
• 57:45
  Danielle Black: Now, are those things options?
• 57:47
  Danielle Black: Absolutely.
• 57:48
  Danielle Black: Are they the only options?
• 57:50
  Danielle Black: No.
• 57:51
  Danielle Black: There is a huge misconception that after separation that you actually have to seek the other parent's agreement on what you want to implement.
• 57:59
  Danielle Black: You don't.
• 58:00
  Danielle Black: In the absence of court orders, you don't have to agree on anything, really.
• 58:06
  Danielle Black: There is no law that requires you to seek their agreement before implementing something.
• 58:13
  Danielle Black: Again, this is why so many clients come to us in the first place, particularly if they've been in relationships where there has been an imbalance with power, with decision making, whether there has been anything that would be determined as family violence or coercive control or not, many of our clients have struggled with setting appropriate boundaries, with actually holding firm on literally anything with their former partner, and they don't actually realize that they have the power to do that.
• 58:48
  Danielle Black: And so require some support and some guidance, and that's where we're able to help.
• 58:55
  Danielle Black: So, for example, in the situation of the backtrack testing or the hair follicle testing, it can be appropriate in situations where there has been drug use, even just recreational drug use, or if you're concerned about alcohol consumption, whether that's nightly increased consumption or whether that's binge drinking consumption, that leads you to have concerns about the other parent's parenting capacity, their ability to be tuned in and responsive to the children if they've had however much to drink, whatever it might be specific to your situation, if you're concerned about those things and want there to be safety measures in place to ensure that they're not actually continuing to take drugs andor that they're not under the influence of alcohol when your children are in their care, you can refuse to facilitate your children spending time with the other parent if that other parent will not agree to those things.
• 59:53
  Danielle Black: Yes, you heard me correctly.
• 59:55
  Danielle Black: In the absence of parenting orders, you are able to communicate that you will only be facilitating time if certain requirements are met.
• 1:00:06
  Danielle Black: Now, there might be some of you listening who have just had a very intense nervous system response at me saying that, at the mere thought of setting a firm boundary and making it clear that you will not be facilitating parenting time unless certain things are put in place, unless certain things are agreed to.
• 1:00:28
  Danielle Black: I get it.
• 1:00:29
  Danielle Black: I've been in your situation.
• 1:00:31
  Danielle Black: I've been in a situation where I was parenting without court orders for the better part of a decade, and in my situation, it was not some amicable, smooth-sailing, child-focused paradise.
• 1:00:46
  Danielle Black: I was continually acquiescing to the demands of my former partner.
• 1:00:52
  Danielle Black: I was not being protective of my child.
• 1:00:56
  Danielle Black: I was about as far from being a protective parent as you could get.
• 1:00:59
  Danielle Black: I was a very conflict-avoidant parent.
• 1:01:02
  Danielle Black: The mere thought of setting a boundary with my former partner would, you know, break me out in a cold sweat and heart palpitations.
• 1:01:09
  Danielle Black: And I know that there are some of you listening who can understand that and appreciate that and possibly sympathise with that because you know exactly what it feels like.
• 1:01:19
  Danielle Black: And I have very deep regret, and I have compassion for myself, and I understand why I was in that situation.
• 1:01:27
  Danielle Black: I understand why I made the decisions that I made.
• 1:01:31
  Danielle Black: And if I could go back in time and change it, I would.
• 1:01:34
  Danielle Black: Because there is still part of me that feels that there's just no excuse for what I allowed to happen to my child.
• 1:01:42
  Danielle Black: And that's why Danielle Black coaching exists.
• 1:01:45
  Danielle Black: It doesn't exist because we're warriors for justice.
• 1:01:50
  Danielle Black: You know, I'm not sure that there is really any such thing as genuine justice on this path.
• 1:01:56
  Danielle Black: Fundamentally, we're warriors for those of us in this experience leveling up, expanding our capacity, getting to a place where traumatized or not, healed or not, comfortable or not, we can stand up and protect our kids.
• 1:02:15
  Danielle Black: Even when it's hard.
• 1:02:17
  Danielle Black: Even when our nervous system is on fire saying, Girl, what the fuck?
• 1:02:20
  Danielle Black: What are you doing?
• 1:02:21
  Danielle Black: Seriously?
• 1:02:22
  Danielle Black: You know that he's not gonna like that.
• 1:02:24
  Danielle Black: No, he's not gonna fucking like it.
• 1:02:28
  Danielle Black: And when you're a protective parent, you do it anyway.
• 1:02:32
  Danielle Black: You do it anyway, and it feels like shit.
• 1:02:35
  Danielle Black: And that's why our clients connect with ours.
• 1:02:39
  Danielle Black: So that when they're in the midst of it feeling like shit, they can connect with their coach or with other women in our community and talk about what it is that they're experiencing.
• 1:02:49
  Danielle Black: And inevitably they survive, they realise that that was a really intense experience when they set a boundary and maintained it and refused to facilitate arrangements that they did not think were safe or appropriate.
• 1:03:01
  Danielle Black: They survive, they come out the other side and they hold the boundary again.
• 1:03:05
  Danielle Black: And then they hold the boundary again.
• 1:03:07
  Danielle Black: And then their former partner recruits family members and friends and threatens legal action, and do you really think that you're doing the right thing by a child, denying them access to me, their other parent?
• 1:03:19
  Danielle Black: You're a terrible mother.
• 1:03:20
  Danielle Black: Blah blah blah blah blah.
• 1:03:23
  Danielle Black: I've heard it all.
• 1:03:24
  Danielle Black: So much of that has been said to me uh when I eventually did become protective.
• 1:03:30
  Danielle Black: I know the playbook.
• 1:03:32
  Danielle Black: I know how it feels when you're on the receiving end of those things.
• 1:03:35
  Danielle Black: I know how it feels when you're doubting yourself, when you're doubting whether or not what you're holding firm on is appropriate, when you're then confused, when you're questioning yourself.
• 1:03:45
  Danielle Black: Again, that's why Danielle Black Coaching exists, that's why the blueprint exists.
• 1:03:50
  Danielle Black: Because I recognize that there was such a huge gap that we needed something in this space to help parents who just didn't have any idea what the fuck they were doing, but still wanted to protect their kids anyway.
• 1:04:04
  Danielle Black: So I'm here saying that whether or not you go to mediation or not, if you don't have an agreement with the other parent about the parenting arrangements, that does not mean that the only option is court or to acquiesce and just agree with whatever they're putting forward.
• 1:04:22
  Danielle Black: You can stay firm, you can say no, I disagree, I don't think what you're proposing is appropriate for our children.
• 1:04:32
  Danielle Black: What I'm willing to facilitate is and then you outline what the child focused parenting arrangements that you are willing to facilitate are.
• 1:04:42
  Danielle Black: That might be supervised time at a professional contact centre, that might be time whereby they have to be providing you with a 0.00 blood alcohol concentration reading prior to any changeover.
• 1:04:54
  Danielle Black: There's a whole range of protective measures that can be put in place without court orders.
• 1:05:02
  Danielle Black: Oftentimes what our clients have found is that when they've actually stayed firm on those things, either their former partner has complied ultimately, if they genuinely want to spend time with the children, that's what they will do, whether we're talking professionally supervised time for a period of time.
• 1:05:22
  Danielle Black: Professionally supervised time is rarely forever.
• 1:05:25
  Danielle Black: However, we do have clients whereby ultimately no contact was deemed appropriate or whereby there's been prolonged supervision.
• 1:05:34
  Danielle Black: So if you speak to a professional supervision service and they tell you that you can only access it for eight weeks or twelve weeks or whatever, well, I'm calling bullshit because I've got many clients that have actually been utilizing the services of professional supervision for years.
• 1:05:53
  Danielle Black: There is a bit of a spiel whereby people are often under the impression of they're often told That professional supervision is just for a very, very short period of time.
• 1:06:04
  Danielle Black: That's the ideal.
• 1:06:05
  Danielle Black: But the reality looks very, very different.
• 1:06:08
  Danielle Black: And so if you're confused about this or you're wanting advice about this, please do reach out.
• 1:06:14
  Danielle Black: But all of this to say, all kinds of things can be put in place.
• 1:06:18
  Danielle Black: Non-primary caregivers have often ultimately agreed in order to maintain contact and a relationship with the children in a way that is safe and appropriate.
• 1:06:30
  Danielle Black: Whether they think it's necessary, you know, they can be kicking and screaming the whole way.
• 1:06:35
  Danielle Black: I'm not suggesting that, you know, they're going to be skipping along enjoying every moment of this.
• 1:06:41
  Danielle Black: But again, that's what protective parenting is often about.
• 1:06:45
  Danielle Black: It's not about avoiding conflict for the sake of avoiding all of the conflict.
• 1:06:49
  Danielle Black: It's not about avoiding conflict if the trade-off is that our kids are potentially exposed to safety concerns or other harms.
• 1:06:58
  Danielle Black: Being a protective parent is often about holding the line, holding firm on an expectation and a boundary, whether the other parent is happy with that or not, and actually being able to withstand somebody else's discomfort.
• 1:07:17
  Danielle Black: The discomfort of knowing that the former partner is pissed off.
• 1:07:21
  Danielle Black: It does get easier over time when you hold those boundaries.
• 1:07:24
  Danielle Black: In fact, the only way to get comfortable with holding boundaries and with being a protective parent is just to fucking do it.
• 1:07:33
  Danielle Black: And then you do it again, and then you do it again, and then you do it again and again and again, and you keep doing it again until you've increased your capacity, you've built that muscle.
• 1:07:45
  Danielle Black: Is it ever going to feel completely comfortable where you don't have to give it a second thought where there's no nervous system response?
• 1:07:53
  Danielle Black: Well, I'm not going to make that guarantee.
• 1:07:55
  Danielle Black: Everybody's journey is different.
• 1:07:57
  Danielle Black: But it does get infinitely easier each time you set and maintain a boundary.
• 1:08:04
  Danielle Black: And is there a chance that a former partner is just going to completely crack the shits and make good on a threat to initiate court proceedings?
• 1:08:14
  Danielle Black: Yes.
• 1:08:15
  Danielle Black: Sometimes the first thing that they do is run to a lawyer.
• 1:08:19
  Danielle Black: Sometimes they threaten legal action for months and months and months.
• 1:08:25
  Danielle Black: In my case it was twelve months.
• 1:08:27
  Danielle Black: My ex threatened legal action for twelve months until he actually initiated any sort of legal action.
• 1:08:33
  Danielle Black: It's different in all situations.
• 1:08:36
  Danielle Black: Depends on the appetite genuinely of the other parent to engage in that litigation and incidentally to pay for that litigation.
• 1:08:45
  Danielle Black: This is also where a bit of the strategy comes into play.
• 1:08:48
  Danielle Black: Because if your former partner doesn't have two brass pennies to rub together and doesn't have anybody else willing to foot the bill, then oftentimes a threat to commence court proceedings is an empty threat because they find out how much it's all going to cost them and realize that they simply can't because they don't have any money.
• 1:09:12
  Danielle Black: What a shame.
• 1:09:13
  Danielle Black: If your former partner, on the other hand, does have access to finances, whether of their own or that of a friend or family member who's willing to unfortunately foot the bill for someone who's potentially seeking something that is unsafe and inappropriate, that's when we can see legal action.
• 1:09:33
  Danielle Black: We can see strongly worded legal letters about unilateral decision making and withholding and gatekeeping and not in the best interests of the children, and do you really think this is child focused?
• 1:09:46
  Danielle Black: And all of that sort of other bullshit that, yeah, you might be reading between the lines here and thinking, gee, I wonder if Danielle has actually received some of those legal letters in her own situation.
• 1:09:58
  Danielle Black: How did you guess?
• 1:09:59
  Danielle Black: You know I did.
• 1:10:02
  Danielle Black: You know I was accused of all of those things.
• 1:10:04
  Danielle Black: When I eventually levelled up and became protective, of course I was labelled with all of those things.
• 1:10:10
  Danielle Black: Of course I was accused of parental alienation.
• 1:10:14
  Danielle Black: I mean it couldn't possibly be because what my ex was seeking was not appropriate, and that harm had been caused to my child.
• 1:10:22
  Danielle Black: Surely not.
• 1:10:23
  Danielle Black: Apologies, I'm being a little bit facetious here.
• 1:10:27
  Danielle Black: But of course you have to expect that there's going to be some strongly worded legal letters from some pompous assholes.
• 1:10:34
  Danielle Black: That are doing nothing except taking on board your ex's narrative.
• 1:10:40
  Danielle Black: Try not to get too worried about that.
• 1:10:42
  Danielle Black: Legal letters in themselves carry very little weight.
• 1:10:45
  Danielle Black: They have no authority ultimately in the grand scheme of things if there are no court orders in place.
• 1:10:52
  Danielle Black: You do need to pay attention to them.
• 1:10:54
  Danielle Black: It can be appropriate to respond either yourself or by seeking representation.
• 1:11:00
  Danielle Black: Again, if you're interested in unpacking what your options are for that, that's also what we're here for.
• 1:11:08
  Danielle Black: We don't provide legal advice, but we can help you to understand what options are open to you so that you can then make an informed decision yourself going forward.
• 1:11:18
  Danielle Black: And you might end up in the court system, obviously, if they've taken the decision to move forward with an application to the court.
• 1:11:27
  Danielle Black: And that's always very entertaining when you see what they've what they're seeking and what their accusations about you are, and the way that they've framed things, and the way that you know damn well that they did fuck all genuine attuned parenting.
• 1:11:45
  Danielle Black: That might not be true in every case, obviously, but you know, if you're listening to the post-separation abuse podcast, I'm assuming that it's potentially true for you.
• 1:11:53
  Danielle Black: Uh yet they're claiming that they have either been the primary caregiver or that primary care was shared jointly.
• 1:12:00
  Danielle Black: I mean, that always just gives me a giggle, frankly.
• 1:12:03
  Danielle Black: And you will have the opportunity to respond, and you will have the opportunity to be seeking the protective things that you're seeking.
• 1:12:11
  Danielle Black: And where there has been things like recreational drug use, where there are other concerns, obviously it's dependent upon the age of the children.
• 1:12:19
  Danielle Black: There's so many different factors, which again is why this is very generalist information.
• 1:12:25
  Danielle Black: If you're wanting specific information specific to your situation, I highly recommend that you consider accessing the blueprint if you haven't already, or that you book a call with someone on our team, because these are the sorts of things that we can help parents to understand just what options are available, what path might be the best one for you.
• 1:12:50
  Danielle Black: But incidentally, a lot of the grumpy former partners that initiate court proceedings can be quite surprised when the court actually thinks that hair follicle testing, breathalyzer testing, professionally supervised visits are actually all very sensible ideas.
• 1:13:07
  Danielle Black: And that has happened for so many, look, honestly, more clients than I can count.
• 1:13:12
  Danielle Black: That has happened with.
• 1:13:14
  Danielle Black: Our clients have been holding firm when there have been no orders in place, the other parent storms off in a huff and either threatens legal action for a really long period of time and then ultimately just complies, or they actually carry through with their threat to commence litigation and things end up in the court system, and lo and behold, the court system actually thinks that what the protective parent has been seeking all along is actually very appropriate on an interim basis because of the safety concerns.
• 1:13:48
  Danielle Black: Important to note that the burden of proof in family law proceedings is actually very different to criminal law.
• 1:13:56
  Danielle Black: A lot of people are worried that because they might not have hard and fast quote unquote proof of recreational drug taking or excessive consumption of alcohol, they worry that that's never going to be taken seriously by the court, so why bother?
• 1:14:11
  Danielle Black: I might as well just give in and let all of those safety mitigation things go.
• 1:14:16
  Danielle Black: No, incorrect.
• 1:14:18
  Danielle Black: You do not need to have high levels of proof when you're in family court.
• 1:14:24
  Danielle Black: That is a big misconception.
• 1:14:26
  Danielle Black: Now, this is not legal advice.
• 1:14:28
  Danielle Black: Obviously, you would be engaging with a lawyer most likely if you were going to be responding to an application in family court.
• 1:14:38
  Danielle Black: But please do not underestimate the weight that can be given, particularly on an interim basis, to your observations and lived experiences during the course of that relationship.
• 1:14:53
  Danielle Black: All this to say that please don't be thinking that because your former partner is not going to agree to no overnights or to supervised time for a period of time until they can prove that they are clean and not using any drug, or that they are sober when they're caring for your children.
• 1:15:12
  Danielle Black: Please don't be thinking that because your ex doesn't agree to any of those things and there's no orders in place, that you're then stuck and have nowhere to go and just simply have to acquiesce because you need an agreement, you need to agree, you need some certainty.
• 1:15:26
  Danielle Black: That's not true.
• 1:15:28
  Danielle Black: Your nervous system is going to want some certainty.
• 1:15:31
  Danielle Black: Your nervous system is going to want to see that there's something on paper and agreed and signed.
• 1:15:37
  Danielle Black: But just because your nervous system wants it doesn't mean that that's actually reality.
• 1:15:41
  Danielle Black: It doesn't mean that that's actually factually how things need to be in order to progress things.
• 1:15:48
  Danielle Black: And this is where coaching can help.
• 1:15:51
  Danielle Black: Particularly if you've listened to any of this and it's resonating with you and you're thinking, hey, I think I need to talk to somebody on the Danielle Black Coaching team.
• 1:16:00
  Danielle Black: Please do reach out.
• 1:16:02
  Danielle Black: You can head to the website Danielleblackcoaching.com.au where you will find lots of information, info about the blueprint, information about the coaches, you can book with us.
• 1:16:13
  Danielle Black: My books at the time of recording this are currently full.
• 1:16:17
  Danielle Black: I'm hoping that they're going to open up a little bit in the near future, but nevertheless, both Trudy and Bridget are experienced.
• 1:16:26
  Danielle Black: They can help you.
• 1:16:28
  Danielle Black: And we have the blueprint.
• 1:16:30
  Danielle Black: And I am not for a second suggesting that any of this is easy.
• 1:16:36
  Danielle Black: So if you're thinking, oh well Danielle, but it's easy for you to say, but you don't understand, you don't understand my ex.
• 1:16:43
  Danielle Black: I'm just gonna stop you right there and say that for most of you listening, I understand a lot more than what you think I do.
• 1:16:51
  Danielle Black: Just because I'm at the other side does not mean that I don't still remember, not just cognitively but somatically, you know, in my body and on a nervous system level what it was like when my ex was not agreeing to things that were appropriate and safe for our child and that I was acquiescing and that I felt unable to hold firm on anything, that I felt unable to protect my child.
• 1:17:14
  Danielle Black: I remember that all too well.
• 1:17:16
  Danielle Black: But what you may not realize is how you will feel if you don't level the fuck up and protect your child.
• 1:17:26
  Danielle Black: I know how that feels.
• 1:17:28
  Danielle Black: I know how the guilt and the grief feels knowing the harm that was caused that I didn't prevent, knowing that I wasn't protective.
• 1:17:40
  Danielle Black: And again, please don't ever use my coaching or Bridget's coaching or Trudy's coaching, you know, any of our coaching against yourself.
• 1:17:48
  Danielle Black: This is not about blame and shame, but it is about being really fucking brutally honest.
• 1:17:54
  Danielle Black: And that can sometimes land really hard.
• 1:17:56
  Danielle Black: I know that that can trigger a lot of you listening potentially to feel really defensive, to feel seen in a way that's really uncomfortable.
• 1:18:04
  Danielle Black: And I'm not going to apologize for that, because I think sometimes we really do need to look at ourselves and feel that discomfort, because truly, if you're feeling a level of discomfort, my guess is that it's because something that I'm saying is landing with you as being accurate, as being true.
• 1:18:23
  Danielle Black: And none of this is about shame and blame, you know, that would be a really easy, superficial thing to just throw the fucking airpods across the room and say that bitch can just fuck off.
• 1:18:34
  Danielle Black: What the fuck does she know?
• 1:18:35
  Danielle Black: She doesn't know my life.
• 1:18:37
  Danielle Black: No, I don't know your life, but I know what it's like to not protect your child and then have to live with that for the rest of your life after the fact.
• 1:18:45
  Danielle Black: I know what that's like because that's my life, and I don't want that for you, and I certainly don't want that for your kids.
• 1:18:52
  Danielle Black: I have immense compassion for the mother that I was, for the traumatized mother that I was, for the stuck mother that I was, for the frightened mother that I was.
• 1:19:05
  Danielle Black: I have so much compassion for that version of me all of those years ago.
• 1:19:11
  Danielle Black: And for me, there is no amount of self-compassion, there is no amount of healing, there is no amount of helping other mothers, there is no amount of knowing that other children are protected, there is no amount of kind words from clients or from strangers that will ever take away the grief, the guilt, and the pain that I carry knowing that my child was harmed because I didn't act when I needed to.
• 1:19:47
  Danielle Black: And I did not at all intend this closing to Bridget's episode to take such an emotional turn, to take such a potentially dark turn.
• 1:19:59
  Danielle Black: But if you've listened to this podcaster for any length of time, if you are one of my one-on-one coaching clients, if you've connected with us at all, if you know anything about me, you know, rightly or wrongly, I'm honest.
• 1:20:14
  Danielle Black: I'm honest about my experience.
• 1:20:16
  Danielle Black: I'm honest about what I see happening in this system.
• 1:20:20
  Danielle Black: And I'm being honest here with you in this moment.
• 1:20:24
  Danielle Black: I know that taking action can be incredibly difficult.
• 1:20:28
  Danielle Black: I know that holding a line and holding a boundary can be incredibly difficult.
• 1:20:33
  Danielle Black: I know that there is that urge to just fall back into the, but I I can't do it, I'm traumatized, he's going to be angry, it's too hard, it's just easier in this moment to agree.
• 1:20:48
  Danielle Black: You know, the anticipatory compliance is very real.
• 1:20:52
  Danielle Black: Again, I know because I lived it for so long.
• 1:20:56
  Danielle Black: You know, my middle name could have been anticipatory compliance for a decade.
• 1:21:00
  Danielle Black: And I don't want that for you.
• 1:21:02
  Danielle Black: So whether you're planning separation, whether you're newly separated, whether you're planning for mediation, whether you've just got that lovely worded legal letter accusing you of all the things and you're thinking that you're going to be in the court system sometime soon, or maybe you are in the court system.
• 1:21:20
  Danielle Black: Quite literally, wherever you are in your journey, we can help.
• 1:21:25
  Danielle Black: The blueprint can help.
• 1:21:26
  Danielle Black: The coaches here at Danielle Black Coaching can help.
• 1:21:29
  Danielle Black: This is what we do.
• 1:21:30
  Danielle Black: This is why we're here.
• 1:21:32
  Danielle Black: And I know I speak for both Bridget and Trudy, our current SANU coaches here at Danielle Black Coaching.
• 1:21:39
  Danielle Black: I know I speak for both of them when I say thank you so much for being here with us for this episode.
• 1:21:46
  Danielle Black: Thank you so much for being willing to consider the information that we're providing.
• 1:21:50
  Danielle Black: Thank you so much to those of you who have already invested in yourself and your children with this work, whether that's by purchasing the blueprint, whether that's by working with us one-on-one.
• 1:22:00
  Danielle Black: However, it is that you're doing this work, we thank you sincerely.
• 1:22:06
  Danielle Black: And I'm not sure who you're going to be hearing from next week, but whichever one of us you do hear from, we'll look forward to chatting with you then.