Latest / The Observatory | Discovery of Consciousness & Awareness / Turning the Lens Inward | Scott Wright on Awakening, Relationships, and Radical Self-Honesty revisited

Transcript

Turning the Lens Inward | Scott Wright on Awakening, Relationships, and Radical Self-Honesty revisited · The Observatory | Discovery of Consciousness & Awareness

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Observatory Podcast.
• 0:05
  Speaker 2: With your hosts Scott and Loray Wright.
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: Join us each week as we explore living life from
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: the inside out. Welcome back to the Observatory Podcast. Today
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: we're turning the tables again. We've done this once before
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: with Ray and I when we were interviewed by Sasha
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: and Adam Hightower. But today my friend Steve Kara Fiat
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: is coming on to ask questions. He's going to talk
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: to me and ask some questions. He and I have
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: been interacting quite a bit over the last several months
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: about some things that we want to talk about, and
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: I'm going to get pretty vulnerable in this conversation and
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: maybe triggering for some it's triggering for me. So there's
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: a lot of information and details on here about me
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: and my life that I haven't shared before, and I'm
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: going to talk about those things. And Ray is here
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: as well. She's going to be joining us and she's
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: going to keep us in line on task and doing
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: what we should do so we don't go down too
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: many rabbit holes. So here's a conversation with my good
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: friends Steven Caarafaat talking and turning the tables and asking
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: questions to me. With Ray at my side, sit back, relax,
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: and enjoy this podcast on The Observatory. Welcome back to
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: the Observatory podcast. We are sitting here today with our
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: good friend Steven Carafayette, and he was here a few
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: weeks ago. We did a podcast with him and his
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: partner Carrie, and in that podcast was mentioned that we
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: were going to come back because Steve and I have
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: been chatting for a while about another turning the Tables episode.
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: We did one of these before with Sasha and Adam
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: high Tower, and they came in and kind of asked
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: us questions, and we're you and I have been having
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: conversations for a long time, bottom line, and in those conversations,
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: you've opened up some new perspectives for me, and I
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: think I've done that for you as well. And that's
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: kind of where we want to delve into today. And
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: you know, people kind of know me. They don't need
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: to know all the details about my life. Some of
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: the things we already shared in podcasts, so a few
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: of those things will come up as subjects that we
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: talk about today. But you know what we're going to
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: do right now, honey, You ready to turn the time
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: over to Steven.
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I just want to say some of you know,
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: the majority of this has come up in your men's gathering.
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: Yes, that's where we got acquainted with each other.
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: Right, and the vulnerability and often city that you have
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: shared I think is worth repeating here with Steven. So
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: he's eager to ask you those questions. And I'm going
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: to be here just to keep you guys on the
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: rails so that we don't end up with a four
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: hour podcasts.
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: Perfect. She knows all too well. She's seen us have conversations.
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: Before, so we can always do a part too. Yeah,
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: but we'll try to keep it within an hour and
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: a half and go from there. So with that, yeah,
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: I'm ready to turn it over to Steven.
• 3:29
  Speaker 3: Hey, thank you guys. And you know, to that end,
• 3:32
  Speaker 3: I've been taking some time putting together kind of an outline,
• 3:35
  Speaker 3: trying to distill down because, like you guys say, it
• 3:38
  Speaker 3: could be days worth of content if we really delve into.
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: You know, Steve, this is the first time there will
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: be an outline for an observatory podcast, right.
• 3:47
  Speaker 3: Well, I feel honored then. It was it was fun
• 3:52
  Speaker 3: putting together my stream of consciousness because it's just I
• 3:57
  Speaker 3: just want to reflect as we get started how much
• 4:00
  Speaker 3: both of you mean to me, both seeing the relationship
• 4:05
  Speaker 3: that you've cultivated over time. I look everywhere for examples
• 4:10
  Speaker 3: of relationships that i'd actually want to emulate, and they're
• 4:13
  Speaker 3: few and far between. And you guys have that and
• 4:17
  Speaker 3: you share it so lovingly. And then also you know
• 4:21
  Speaker 3: Scott individually has been I don't think it's an exaggeration
• 4:25
  Speaker 3: to say almost the north star for me to guide
• 4:31
  Speaker 3: myself towards in terms of increase alignment and integrity. I'll
• 4:37
  Speaker 3: just give a brief overview of how I met Scott
• 4:39
  Speaker 3: and how important he is to me, and then I
• 4:41
  Speaker 3: think we want to kind of jump into spending the
• 4:43
  Speaker 3: rest of the time asking you questions about yourself.
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: Don't don't make me feel uncomfortable, That's all I mean.
• 4:50
  Speaker 3: I don't know if I can laugh. I don't know
• 4:53
  Speaker 3: if I can promise that. But you do have editing privileges,
• 4:55
  Speaker 3: so if you listeners notice any suspicious gaps, you can
• 5:00
  Speaker 3: ask Scott about it. But the first time I met Scott,
• 5:03
  Speaker 3: we were doing a men's group over here. He'd opened
• 5:05
  Speaker 3: up his backyard and his tepee and I met him
• 5:09
  Speaker 3: and I was just you know, immediately impressed with the
• 5:12
  Speaker 3: guard he'd created the sense of nature and growth and
• 5:15
  Speaker 3: kind of his own quiet, obvious, self assured, groundedness that
• 5:22
  Speaker 3: he exuded. And since then, I've noticed as I've bounced
• 5:27
  Speaker 3: around in life, you know, sinking into my shadows, coming up,
• 5:31
  Speaker 3: vibing higher. It's like every time I'm vibing as high
• 5:34
  Speaker 3: as I possibly can, is like when I come back
• 5:36
  Speaker 3: into Scott's orbit. And so I've made note of that,
• 5:40
  Speaker 3: and uh.
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: Thank you. I feel very honored by you saying that.
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: By the way, I just want you to know that
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: thank you.
• 5:48
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm glad that you can receive that, because I
• 5:51
  Speaker 3: mean it and I don't say it lightly. You know,
• 5:54
  Speaker 3: there's religious leaders out there who claim they have the answer,
• 5:58
  Speaker 3: and there's a lot of people out there who claim
• 6:00
  Speaker 3: have the answer. But as soon as I start actually
• 6:02
  Speaker 3: looking into their lives, are they walking the path that
• 6:05
  Speaker 3: they preach? Are they open? Are they loving? Are they kind?
• 6:09
  Speaker 3: How are they treating people? What does their relationship look like?
• 6:13
  Speaker 3: Can they honestly say they're deeper in love now than
• 6:15
  Speaker 3: when they first met their person? Or are they bullshitting?
• 6:18
  Speaker 3: And usually it's not pretty, But with you guys like
• 6:22
  Speaker 3: I really feel something special.
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: And you have been.
• 6:26
  Speaker 3: Almost I don't know if it's a grandfather or father
• 6:29
  Speaker 3: or some combination thereof, but I've felt it, and a
• 6:32
  Speaker 3: lot of other men in the community have commented on
• 6:34
  Speaker 3: something similar. So just you know, thank you for showing
• 6:37
  Speaker 3: up so autemically.
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: Thank you.
• 6:39
  Speaker 3: I appreciate it absolutely. I think before we delve into
• 6:44
  Speaker 3: the amazing kind of history of the just beautiful, tender,
• 6:50
  Speaker 3: sensitive boy into man into community leader. Even though he
• 6:56
  Speaker 3: excused the term our friend, Vinnie refers to him as
• 6:59
  Speaker 3: mass they're just going to put that out there to
• 7:01
  Speaker 3: embarrass him further. Yeah, but it's for a good reason.
• 7:06
  Speaker 3: So before we kind of delve into the history that
• 7:09
  Speaker 3: got you to this place, which I think is so relevant,
• 7:11
  Speaker 3: I just want to kind of talk about where you
• 7:13
  Speaker 3: currently are and like after everything you've been through, like
• 7:17
  Speaker 3: the beliefs that you kind of currently hold, and I
• 7:20
  Speaker 3: kind of wanted to start with one of the things
• 7:23
  Speaker 3: you've opened my eyes to is when you talk so
• 7:25
  Speaker 3: much about the interconnectedness of everything, can you talk just
• 7:30
  Speaker 3: a little bit about that?
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: Sure, you know, that's not something that I always saw
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: and it's not even something that anyone can can experience
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: through the senses. It's something beyond that, and everyone, I
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: think experiences in their own way. And as my life
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: began to shift, which kind of began in about two
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: thousand and eight, It's something I've talked about before, a
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: real shift of direction in my life, letting go of
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: being so disconnected. And then it was kind of like
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: just flipping the switch where all of a sudden, now
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: I started to feel connected. So it wasn't that I
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: was connected, because I'm still you know, it's a process
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: to go through, but things started open up opening up
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: for me. I started to pay attention to everything around me,
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: especially nature. Nature was the thing, and RAISE heard me
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: say this many times. But in the beginning of this
• 8:33
  Speaker 1: journey that started around two thousand and eight, it was
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: after I had this experience, I just felt this desire
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: to go and watch every sunrise and every sunset and
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: see the beauty of nature all around me all the time.
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: It was like this. It wasn't like it was different
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: than just a desire. It was a calling. It was like,
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: this is going to help you. I somehow new because
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: I could feel in the sunset this expansive feeling and
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: it was an experience and all of us can relate
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: to where we go out and it's just one of
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: those nights where the clouds are at the perfect level
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: where the sun hits and just like lights up the
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: whole sky right before it goes down, and you see
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: that the colors of orange and pink and lavender and
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: all of these colors that we don't normally see everywhere
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: every day, but it's expanded over the whole sky, and man,
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: it's such a majestic thing. And it was experiences like
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: that in the beginning that then took me to this
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: place of beginning to feel that I was part of
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: something bigger than the little keyhole I'd been looking through
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: for most of my life.
• 9:51
  Speaker 3: I love the reflection of starting to feel like you're
• 9:54
  Speaker 3: actually starting to be connected to and part of everything,
• 9:58
  Speaker 3: with everything starting as nature, and I think that kind
• 10:01
  Speaker 3: of naturally transitions into you know, now you're known in
• 10:04
  Speaker 3: the community. You've got a trailer full of drums that
• 10:07
  Speaker 3: you'll bring around to help people find flow. We just
• 10:10
  Speaker 3: got out of a tepee where we were making music
• 10:13
  Speaker 3: and grounding, and I kind of want to ask you
• 10:15
  Speaker 3: a little bit about you know, it seems like you
• 10:18
  Speaker 3: are a missionary for nature, and part of nature to
• 10:21
  Speaker 3: you stems from the saying that we hear a lot
• 10:24
  Speaker 3: of take me to the place where the music plays,
• 10:27
  Speaker 3: and you create the place where the music plays. Can
• 10:29
  Speaker 3: you talk a little bit about why music is so
• 10:32
  Speaker 3: important to you and how you kind of found that
• 10:34
  Speaker 3: as an extension of nature.
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, and the reality is as a nature
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: led me there, but I didn't realize the depth that
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: I was going to find in the music at the time.
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: And then when I say that, it's like I was
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: drawn to this. My brother opened this door up for me.
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: My brother, Paul, the paly Lama we call him, he
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: opened this door for me by introducing me to this
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: group of people that participated in these primitive skills gatherings.
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: And the grandfather of them all was or is rabbit
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: Stick is the name of it, and it takes place
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: up in Idaho where he lives. It's only about four
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: hour drive from here, and so every year he goes
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: has been going to this thing and been inviting me
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: for a long time, and I finally acquiesced and said yes.
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: In twenty eleven. It was the first year Ray and
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: I after we got together and when I experienced the
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: drum circle there for the first time, all these people,
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: they call them primitive skills gatherings because people come there
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: to learn the old ways, to carry on the traditions
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: of things like making fire with a hand drill or
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: a bow drill, or making baskets woven from cattails that
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: they get on the property, or baskets made from willows
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: that are gotten on the property, and using our connection
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: to nature to be industrious and create things to help
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: our lives to be more convenient. But when I had
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: the experience of that and then the drum circle was
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: like the icing on the cake. The first time I went,
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: I didn't go for the whole gathering. I kind of
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: witnessed what was going on. You weren't there the first
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: one I went to, but you came the next year,
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: right the next time. And it was when I participated
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: in that first drum circle. I had bought a drum
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: and it was just a frame drum, and I took
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: it to the to the event, to the fire. That night,
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: as it was getting dark, they lit this giant fire
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: like a ceremonial fire. They lit it with a hand drill,
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: so they created an ember and then they blew it
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: to life inside of a nest of cedar bark, put
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: it in the bottom of that fire which this guy
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: had stacked. It was like twenty feet high logs stack
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: like a loghouse. It was like setting a small house
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: on fire. And when it went up, just the feeling
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: of being in the presence of all of these other humans,
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: and then the music started and the dancing started, and
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: it took me to this primal place of wow. It's
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: indescribable how powerful of an experience that was. Wow. And
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: I've expressed it a number of times, and I always
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: get emotional because I can. That was my first drum circle.
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: It was the first time I was able to experience
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: something that it helped resolve this energy that was in
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: me that I had learned early in life. It's something
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: I've been just going through now. Was telling myself that
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: I couldn't sing, and this was just like opening up
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: into music. I can do this. And at first, you know,
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: I was super timid. I was just barely tapping on
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: that drum because I thought I was gonna throw everyone off.
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: And then I recognize that no one cared, didn't matter
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: how that it was perfect in fact, that wasn't the
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: point of it at all. It was just to feel
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: it in your body and your soul and play and
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: dance and celebrate life. And when when when I experienced
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: that for the first time, it was like, I don't
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: I can't describe it. But you've had that experience now,
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: and so many others have had that experience. Now, every
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: time I see someone show up at a drum circle
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: for the first time, my heart just like I'm like, yeah,
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: they're here. They finally came. And then when you see
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: someone's life transform, and then they just keep coming back
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: and coming back and coming back. It's not for everyone.
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: Not all people connect to that, but some people really do.
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: And I was one of those. That was the beginning.
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: That's how it started.
• 15:03
  Speaker 3: It's such a privilege to witness the kind of authentic
• 15:07
  Speaker 3: joy and almost like emotional overwhelm of the awe of
• 15:12
  Speaker 3: the connectedness that you felt to that kind of silent
• 15:15
  Speaker 3: rhythm of nature through music, and it starts to make
• 15:20
  Speaker 3: me emotional reflexively for exactly the reasons you say. And
• 15:24
  Speaker 3: it strikes me, you know, ten years ago, if I'd
• 15:27
  Speaker 3: been hearing you say that, it would not have meant
• 15:30
  Speaker 3: anything to me, because it wouldn't be able to strike
• 15:34
  Speaker 3: at a shared experience. And I'm forever grateful for learning
• 15:41
  Speaker 3: from you the flow of authentic creativity and connectedness through music,
• 15:47
  Speaker 3: which previously I would have judged as like a silly
• 15:51
  Speaker 3: distraction from the normal demands of our society and you know,
• 15:57
  Speaker 3: the corporate jobs that I hold a hobby. Yeah.
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: Well, and I'm going to interject here because something has
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: just come to mind that I don't know if you remember, Scott,
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: but music was calling to him beyond just like a
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: primitive skills gathering in a drum circle. Because we had
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: gone to California to see the Redwoods and we went
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: to the park where the Beatles performed.
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, we did, and down in the Ashbury, right, and.
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: We wanted to go to that park where the Beatles
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: had performed and just kind of experience it. And if
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: you remember, there were artists there that were gathering to play.
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, that's right. I forgot.
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: And you had a Dan Moy in your pocket or
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: code or whatever, that harp and you got it out
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: and you were sitting there and you were starting to play,
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: and I said, go up and play with them, and
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: you got up and went up. There were several men sitting,
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: old men sitting on chairs that were playing instruments.
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, these were legit drum circle dudes, right, And.
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: And you went and started playing the dan moy and
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: they motioned for you to come closer to them. They
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: didn't recognize what it was. They wanted to hear what
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: it was. The one encouraged you to come in front
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: and be by his microphone.
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I played in the microphone. That's right.
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: And here's a group of people you had never met,
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: in a much different gathering than a drum circle.
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: And I think.
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: Between the drum circle and just this innate calling that
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: music was giving you that, I think you have to
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: understand that it was a much deeper call than any setting.
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah. No, I totally agree. And looking back on it
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: now and the experience that I have with it now,
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: it's totally different than it was then because there was
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: so much uh, you know, feeling embarrassed and feeling like I,
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: you know, I was, I was. You didn't participate or
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: I couldn't do it right. You could write I couldn't
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: do it perfectly, and so why do it at all? Right?
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: And we also have talked on the podcast a lot
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: about just your playing at the Madeline, the Church of
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: the Mather, the Cathedral of the Madeline, and so you know,
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: there was a deeper calling from music for him. That
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: was that nature led him to and it was it
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: was a calling of co creating and music was going
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: to be.
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: The It was coming through this transition that I talked
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: about in two thousand and eight. It was leaving behind
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: all of these things in my life that were making
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: me feel disconnected because I was just finding things that
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: would numb me from my own pain, which was self created. Yeah,
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: you know, I was the one that created the scenario
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: I needed to heal from. I wasn't. There was a
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: period of time where I pushed that blame outside of myself, absolutely,
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: but I was coming into a realization that I needed
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: to just let this shit go. I needed to just
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: stop having that be what mandated my life and come
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: into a place where I could connect again. It was
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: like I had been disconnected. One of the ayahuasca ceremonies
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: I did then in twenty sixteen, I had an experience.
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: I'm not going to go into great detail about it,
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: but all I all I'm going to say is when
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: the experience was over. The message that kept coming through
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: was now you are receiving on a new channel. I
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: didn't know what that meant at the time, and it
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: didn't mean that I had this special gift at all.
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: It taught me how to quiet my mind and get
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: out of the way and allow the music to play
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: through me instead of me. And we've witnessed that with
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: so many people in our music group that have done
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: the same thing, and it's come Sometimes it's come through
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: plant medicine, but not always. It doesn't really matter how
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: it shows up. But I'm not saying that everyone needs
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: to go do plant medicine, ayahuasca or mushrooms or whatever
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: to be able to find this. But for some people
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: that experience, your mind kind of needs something to quiet
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: itself down so that it can get out of the
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: way and you can experience something different.
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: Right, so that we can return to our nature, which
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: is to be creative. And your creative genius lies in music.
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: In music. Yeah, but didn't start there either, No, But
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: I just started going into creativity and then the music
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: was where it floated to. Yeah.
• 20:55
  Speaker 3: I think this kind of builds into because you know,
• 20:59
  Speaker 3: nature extends into music, and I know, you know, starting
• 21:03
  Speaker 3: with these drummings and then getting very much into flutes,
• 21:05
  Speaker 3: and some of the listeners may not know, you know,
• 21:08
  Speaker 3: the vast collection of flutes and other musical instruments Scott
• 21:11
  Speaker 3: has and his willingness. One of the times I met
• 21:14
  Speaker 3: Scott at a cold Punch, he was just so welcoming
• 21:16
  Speaker 3: of do you want to learn to play the flute?
• 21:18
  Speaker 3: Come over to my house. I'll teach you how to
• 21:19
  Speaker 3: play the flute. And that's not just something for me.
• 21:21
  Speaker 3: He's opened this invitation up to so many people. There's
• 21:24
  Speaker 3: probably one hundred other floutists running around because Scott not
• 21:29
  Speaker 3: just receiving the gifts, but as that fills him up,
• 21:32
  Speaker 3: it's pouring out into the community. And you know, it
• 21:35
  Speaker 3: kind of strikes me in this moment so a little
• 21:38
  Speaker 3: bit awkward that the amazing woman I've chosen to be
• 21:41
  Speaker 3: my sacred union partner is like a younger female version
• 21:45
  Speaker 3: of Scott that also.
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: Plays the flute.
• 21:47
  Speaker 3: And there's there's a lot of uncanny similarities there.
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: It's it's it is interesting. You know, I haven't gotten
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: to know her as well as I want to, and
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: haven't played music with her enough, but I can see that.
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: You know, we listened to the podcast you guys were
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: on with with Chad in April on Safe to Love
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: Here back just this morning. We were listening to it
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: and you could see, you know, where she came through
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: and it was a healing process for her and the
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: music was such a catalyst. Hmmm. It's beautiful.
• 22:18
  Speaker 3: And I think this ties into because you've talked about
• 22:21
  Speaker 3: nature and then music and those are such powerful modalities
• 22:25
  Speaker 3: of many that you practice. And then another thing you're
• 22:28
  Speaker 3: famous for saying is that the thing is never the thing,
• 22:32
  Speaker 3: so like, none of these are actually the thing except
• 22:35
  Speaker 3: for presence. I've heard you say presence can be the thing.
• 22:38
  Speaker 3: So can you just speak of that? Yeah, can you
• 22:41
  Speaker 3: speak a little bit about what that means to you,
• 22:43
  Speaker 3: the thing not being the thing except for presence.
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: Well, I'll tell you where the idea came from for me,
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: and it was we had a little bit of it
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: in the TP. We were sitting with a men'script this
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: morning and the TP, and it kind of came from
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: that because you know, I came out of a high
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: demand religion belief system where things were all drawn out
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: this is the way it is. Things were super dogmatic
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: and that's the way religion is. It's also the way
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: science is. We were talking about that this morning. So
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: science and religion are the same. But when they come
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: from the heart, that's when it's real. But when they
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: start to try and figure everything out, it becomes dogmatic
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: and it becomes the rituals become the thing. Yeah, so
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: hold on here, they haven't finished this part, all right,
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: The ritual becomes the thing. And when we were in
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: the tepee this morning, I did some smudging, So I
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: took some different plants and I did some smudging, and
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: then I mentioned to everyone that rituals are good because
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: they guide us somewhere. But when you make the ritual
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: or something that you're doing, smudging or whatever, the thing
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: or the thing, that's when things start to sideways. Because
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: the reality is the only thing that to me, the
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: only thing that should be a thing is presence, because
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: in presence, you're just open to whatever shows up in
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: the moment and you allow it to be in in
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: your awareness. You open your awareness, and then you start
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: to recognize after you do it over a long period
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: of time. But the only reason you haven't been seeing
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: all of these miracles in your life is because you're
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: not paying attention. When you start to pay attention, you
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: start to realize that there's a conversation going on around
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: me all the time. It's happening. Most of the time.
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: For me, where it happens is in nature. So I
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: go out and I sit under a tree and I
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: play a flute. Like the other day, I was sitting
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: here in the house playing my flute. I was recording
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: some music back in the observatory room, and all of
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: a sudden there was like one hundred and fifty robins
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: in my backyard. Wow. While I'm playing the flute, and
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: you know, of course I'm going to say I called
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: them in. But the thing that I I found when
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: I would go into nature is if I went into
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: nature and I thought that way, I'm gonna call in
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: this or I'm gonna call in that, I would create
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: an expectation. I'd say, I'm gonna try and play like
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: a robin and see if a robin will come in.
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: So I'd play my flute and no robin would show up,
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: but a blue blue jay would show up, or a
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: chickadee would show up, something like that. Well, what I'm
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: doing is I'm trying to predetermine what it is that
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: I want, my ego, my mind, myself, I can conjure
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: something to show up rather than just being open and
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: present to what's happening in the moment, and it's seeing
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: the beauty and whatever that is. And sometimes the things
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: that show up are so far beyond what you could
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: conjure up in your mind and what you could want,
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: like some of the sunsets that I've seen, and some
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: of the thunderstorms that I've witnessed, and these things in
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: nature that are so profound. Rain and I like to
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: talk about our first trip to the red Wood. She
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: mentioned after going to see the redwoods and being in
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: the presence of the redwoods, you will forever feel the
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: call to go back to the redwoods because they're so
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: majestic and unbelievable. You feel like a dinosaur should walk out,
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: wood should walk out from behind every tree. They're just
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: this unbelievable thing. So when we go deep into those
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: experiences without trying to make it be something, and just
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: being present with what it is, there's nothing to make
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: a thing. You're just there, you're just witnessing, you're just experiencing,
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: and that's what life is. When we can live our
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: lives from that place. We find this flow that just
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: happens and you don't have to worry about all of
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: the stuff and the other things. We still have to
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: live in the world of form, so we still have
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: to pay the bills and pay the mortgage, and pay
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: for the insurance and all of those things, and do
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: it from this same space presence when we start to practice.
• 27:05
  Speaker 3: It, so well said, to kind of highlight what presence
• 27:10
  Speaker 3: means for you and inspiring that you've come to these
• 27:14
  Speaker 3: kind of realizations for yourself and share them. And you
• 27:17
  Speaker 3: alluded to earlier. I think it's probably a good segue
• 27:20
  Speaker 3: into coming out of being raised kind of in the
• 27:27
  Speaker 3: kind of waters of high demand, shame based religion. So
• 27:33
  Speaker 3: maybe let's rewind the clock all the way back to
• 27:37
  Speaker 3: little Scottie, you know, the one that painted that picture
• 27:40
  Speaker 3: that we see in your shed. You know, four or
• 27:44
  Speaker 3: five six years old. You've expressed to me having like
• 27:48
  Speaker 3: older brothers who are reading scripture and you're really kind
• 27:51
  Speaker 3: of taking that as inspiration. And I just want to ask,
• 27:55
  Speaker 3: like at that age, looking back on it now, like
• 28:00
  Speaker 3: what did that mean to you? And what beliefs did
• 28:04
  Speaker 3: you find that you internalized from that.
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: Well, the culture that I grew up in. It was
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: a small, small town, small farm town in southeast Idaho,
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: and so you know, there's this culture that existed there
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: that I was born into. And when I was born
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: into that culture, I had three brothers, three older brothers,
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: and I was six years younger than my closest brother.
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: And I was born in sixty one and my next
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: closest brother would have been born six years before that.
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: And when I was six years old, nineteen sixty seven,
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: my uncle passed away. And when he passed away, his
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: family he had four children, two boys, two girls, all
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: again still older than me. We took his family into
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: our family.
• 28:51
  Speaker 3: So you were how old when all of these other
• 28:53
  Speaker 3: kind of relatives just came and plopped into your That.
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: Was six, Yeah, So so at six years old, the
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: dynamic of what my family was completely totally changed. They
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: came into our family from Montgomery, Alabama, and this was
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: kind of in the middle of the Civil rights movement
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: and everything. It was nineteen sixty seven, so it was
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: civil rights movement and everything. They weren't members of the church,
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: they weren't raised in the church. They didn't really none
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: of them knew anything, and none of them had been
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: baptized in the church. Their father was not an active
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: member of the church. So the dynamic of them coming
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: in shifted a lot of things within my family, and
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: it was super hard. I don't remember a lot of
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: details being so young, but the result of that, how
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: difficult that was, has manifested in my life in ways
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: that I didn't I think manifest for some of my siblings.
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: It manifested in other ways. Of course, everybody's different, but
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: me being the youngest, I got introduced to things that
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: I hadn't been introduced to before in the timing, like
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: even just really really uh uh, semi innocent things like
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: a lot more swearing was going on. Sure sisters, sisters
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: didn't have any sisters before, so there's that dynamic. And
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: noting that since I was sixth my next closest sibling
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: was six years older, so he'd have been twelve, and
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: the youngest in the other family was eleven, So I
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: when eleven.
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: Then the girls were teenagers.
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah they all well they I mean Paul and Paul
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: was in sixth grade, Jeff was in seventh grade, so
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: on on up. And my my oldest brother was a junior,
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: So it was from sixth grade to junior. So it's
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: all these people going through the whole puberty thing and
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: you know, all that stuff. And this is the sixties,
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: so they're bringing in some of that attitude from the
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: sixties that had nothing to do with conservative small town Idaho.
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: So that dynamic was difficult to navigate, and the difficulty
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: of navigating through that was developed a lot of different
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: things for me in my life. It did for everyone.
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: It was hard all the way around. And there was
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: more conflict at home, yes, negotiation of less, less vacations,
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: less of those kinds of things. My dad had a
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: farm and so there was now five hard working boys
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: and me who's smaller, but they were immediately put to
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: work on the farm. You know. My dad was one
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: of those who he believed in hard work and keeping
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: especially boys busy doing things. And my dad was a
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: real honorable, honest type of a person, and he had
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: certain things that he wanted things to show up and
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: teach responsibility to all of us. And very open and
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: loving family. My parents were both open and loving. They were,
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: but I mean think about it, think about if you
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: if your family changed like that, how what kind of
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: of difficulty that would bring, and for my mom it
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: resulted in her really struggling for a period of time.
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: You know, she went into state of depression for a
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: period of time and had a really difficult time.
• 32:31
  Speaker 3: What was that like on you as such a young
• 32:33
  Speaker 3: child with so much disruption and a mom who's you know,
• 32:36
  Speaker 3: doing her best but in a state of depression and
• 32:39
  Speaker 3: not able to show up for you know.
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: I remember it a little bit, And the only reason
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: I think I remember some of the details is because
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: I've seen some letters and that that were written back
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: and forth at the time. But the truth of it is,
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: I really think I've blocked a lot of that stuff out,
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: the really hard stuff. We were still a pretty cohesive family.
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: We really did love each other. It wasn't like it
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: was fighting and hatred. It wasn't like that. There was
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: difficult times. I think the two girls really struggled. They
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: ended up moving away and not really being part of
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: the family. As soon as they could get away, they
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: went and didn't really ever come back. I think it
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: was more difficult for them. My mom knew how to
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: be a mom to boys way better than she knew
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: how to be a mom mom to girls. You know,
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: two teenage girls dumped into the family and then there
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: she was. And my dad the same way. He really
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: didn't know anything about that. We had all we ever
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: had was boys. So to start with two teenagers in
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: the middle of it all was not easy.
• 33:40
  Speaker 3: And so kind of from that nucleus, let's visit you know,
• 33:46
  Speaker 3: Scott sixteen seventeen eighteen preparing to you went on a
• 33:50
  Speaker 3: Mormon mission, right, like that version of you. How certain
• 33:55
  Speaker 3: were you and how much of a true believer were
• 33:58
  Speaker 3: you in the religion that you'd been kind of raised
• 34:01
  Speaker 3: in at that point.
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: Well, this is something I've been thinking about quite a
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: bit lately because of some some things that have happened
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: with my siblings, my brothers. We have a group where
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: we get together and we we chat about things, where
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: we we connect there and we send, you know, messages
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: of support. You know, I'm going to get knee surgery
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: or you know, I'm you know, this is going on.
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: We just keep in contact with what's going on in
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: each other's lives. And some of us, some of the brothers,
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: are still active members of the LEDs Church and some
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: are not. And so there's this dynamic of we've we
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: all have that in common because we were all raised
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: that way, but not all of us still participate. So
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: sometimes those conversations get a little bit uncomfortable when either
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: I'll say something that's i don't know, not negative against
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: the church, but not in alignment with what the church teaches,
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: and that becomes a little bit unsafe for others to
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: hear sometimes. And I'm not one to not say something.
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: I haven't been one to not say something. I've I
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: think I've now learned my lesson that I won't be
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: saying anything in the brothers group anymore. But you know,
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: my brother Paul and I talk about it sometimes and
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: he says, why do you have to poke the bear?
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: And that's a good question. Why is it that I
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: do have to poke the bear? I may be I'm
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: a Hayoka and I want to be the sacred clown
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: and I want people to change a little bit. But
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: I think what it really is is I've just seen
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: what I talked about. I was looking like through a
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: keyhole and then I opened the door and saw the
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: expansiveness of what was actually there. And I would like
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: to other people to experience that too, but that's not
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: up to me.
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: Well, and I would like to offer that I just
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: as an observer on the outside. You know, I'm a
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: middle child and Scott's the baby, and being married to
• 36:06
  Speaker 2: Scott has really helped me have such a an appreciation
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: for the youngest of a large family. So I think
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: sometimes you have a desire to be heard. Yeah, true,
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: And being the youngest, you know, your opinion is the
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: last that's often I'm guessing just knowing how it works
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: in my family, the youngest opinion is often the last
• 36:32
  Speaker 2: that is solicited because everyone just thinks that the youngest
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: must agree with all the older ones. And so I think,
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: as your opinion has developed or changed, or you've become
• 36:45
  Speaker 2: so free from a lot of things in your life,
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: you want your opinion.
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: To be shared.
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: And it's not that you need it to be followed
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: or understood by anyone else, that you'd like.
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: To be heard well. And the interesting thing about that is,
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: over the last couple of years, one of the things
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: that I've really been trying to let go of is
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: my need to be right about anything, and I not
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: holding onto that. And in this conversation that happened with
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: my brothers, I really wasn't trying to be right but
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: what I had said had offended one of my brothers,
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: and his defense of it was, you know, a whole
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: bunch of scriptural references on to why what I said
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: was wrong in very negative terms, versus seeing it that
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: it can be right for you, that it could be
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: right for me. And this is a conversation that he
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: and I have had numerous times about him. I asked
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: him to allow me to live my life the way
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: I want to, and I'll worry about it, just like
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: I will allow him to do the same. And you know,
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: I think it's not a matter of him trying to
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: check change the way. I think it's him trying to
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: defend a position that he needs to hold on to
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: and that's where he is and that's okay, and I
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: need to be able to just allow that to be.
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: I still love my brother. I don't want to have
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: conversations about religious beliefs. I don't think it. You know,
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: religion and politics just aren't aren't something that I really
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: want to have a conversation.
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: So tie this back to then, what Stephen had asked
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: about when you were preparing as a young man to
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: consider going on a mission. Yeah, did you at that
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: time have core beliefs that were more in alignment with
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: your faith, which.
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: Is a great question, and that's where I was going.
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: Thank you for bringing me back, But it was my
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: parents were not super adamant about us goalie on missions.
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: They encouraged us, said they would pay for it. They
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: if you want to go, go. Neither one of them
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: were super super religious people. They were not judgmental people.
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: They were open and honest, and both of them had
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: very open and compassionate hearts. And if I didn't go
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: on a mission, I knew that my parents were gonna
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: love me anyway. But all my brothers had gone except one,
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: and I decided to go. So I went. And it
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: wasn't out of conviction, the truth be told, I hadn't
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: read the Book of Mormon yet yet I'm going to
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: teach in the mission field in Brazil. I went to Brazil,
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: and so it was kind of for me. This isn't
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: the case for everybody, but for me, I was definitely
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: going through the motions. But I wouldn't trade it for anything.
• 39:50
  Speaker 1: I don't look back on I'm not one of those
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: who looks back on that experience with any animosity whatsoever.
• 39:57
  Speaker 3: Yeah, tell us a little bit about your mission Brazil
• 40:00
  Speaker 3: and what that exposure to different cultures meant to you.
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: Well, I'll tell you about my first day in Brazil. First,
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: you go through the training to learn the language and
• 40:10
  Speaker 1: everything so much. It's two months of intense learning, which
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: I'd never done anything like that. I wasn't a studious person,
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: but I learned the language. Okay. I had a really
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: good first companion who was Brazilian, who was a really
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: good teacher and helped me. But the first day I
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: arrived in Brazil, it was actually the second day. So
• 40:33
  Speaker 1: we arrived there, we get all of our paperwork done
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: and then they send you to your area and they
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: gave me instructions of how to get there, and it's
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: all written out in Portuguese. I could show people. And
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: they took me out on the street and it was
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: just some missionary that was there. He took me out
• 40:47
  Speaker 1: on the street, hailed a cab, put my two giant
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: bags in along with two other bags I was carrying,
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: like a shoulder bag and another bag and a briefcase.
• 40:59
  Speaker 1: So I got four bags and my coat. I get
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: in this little taxi. It was like a They call
• 41:05
  Speaker 1: it a fusca, which is a VW bug. I get
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: in this little VW bug and take off and I'm
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: show him where I'm going. I'm going to the train station.
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: He takes me, drops me off at the train station,
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: drops me off at the wrong one. So now I'm like,
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: you know, now I'm trying to figure it out. Luckily,
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: somebody came up and kind of helped me. Saw that
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: I didn't speak much Portuguese, and I'm just trying to
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: figure it out, and they're, oh, you need to go
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: to another train station, and it's just right over here.
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: So they get me in another taxi and it was,
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: you know, another five minute drive. I get on the
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: right train and I take off and I go to
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: this city and it's about an hour or so on
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: the train. This is me having grown up in a
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: city of twenty five hundred people in southeast Idaho. This
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: is San Paulo, Brazil, which has like eighteen million people.
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: Just a little bit yeah contrast, and I was nineteen. Wow,
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: and uh, but I get I get there on the train.
• 42:11
  Speaker 1: Another story goes along with that. But when I get
• 42:13
  Speaker 1: dropped off by the taxi to the place where I'm
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: supposed to be, it's at the church house, which is
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: on this really busy street, and they've got walls up
• 42:21
  Speaker 1: with gates that are locked, and I'm knocking on the
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: door and no one's around, and no one came, and
• 42:27
  Speaker 1: no one came, and there's me just sitting on my
• 42:29
  Speaker 1: bags wondering what's going on. And it wasn't until like
• 42:34
  Speaker 1: ten o'clock that night that finally someone showed up. But
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: I sat there all day on my bags. I couldn't
• 42:38
  Speaker 1: leave him, couldn't leave them. I couldn't even get a drink.
• 42:41
  Speaker 1: My bags are all sitting there. It was crazy, dude.
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: But that was my first experience. And I had a
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: really good companion. His name is Andre Dearci was his name.
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: Steve lives here in Ogden. It's a good friend of
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: mine still. And he was the one that got all
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: of the Green American elders, and the ones that got
• 43:03
  Speaker 1: him as their companion learned how to speak Portuguese, and
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: so he was really good at it. And that was
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: my introduction to it. But to learn from another culture
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: and learn another language, and to be just totally immersed
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: in that teaching. Yes, the religion part, and we baptized
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: lots of people into the church, but the friends that
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: I made, both from the mission and the friends that
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: I made while I was in Brazil opened me up
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: to this because the people of Brazil just are anytime
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: you know Vinny from our group, he's from Brazil, and
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: so it's Jonas from our group. You've seen me just
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: like gravitate to these guys because I know Brazilian culture.
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: I know what Brazilian people are, like, their hearts, how
• 43:50
  Speaker 1: open they are. We'd be walking down the street and
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: we'd stop to a house to visit, and they'dn't invite
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: us in. We'd have lunch and fresh fruit, juice and
• 43:59
  Speaker 1: you know, all this off. So my experience in Brazil
• 44:03
  Speaker 1: was super positive and I loved it.
• 44:05
  Speaker 3: So you went on this mission kind of from a
• 44:08
  Speaker 3: small town boy, opening your mind to other cultures, seeing
• 44:12
  Speaker 3: how other people live. Very positive experience, it sounds like.
• 44:16
  Speaker 3: And then compared to the typical trope of coming home
• 44:21
  Speaker 3: as a return missionary getting married, what was your experience
• 44:26
  Speaker 3: like there? How long was it between getting back as
• 44:28
  Speaker 3: a return missionary and then getting married.
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: I was home for a year. I went I went
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: to school at Utah State in Logan, Utah, and I
• 44:41
  Speaker 1: was at school for a whole year, and it was
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: the beginning of the next year that I met my
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: first wife and we got We met in like November
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: and then we it was whirlwind. I mean, we got
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: engaged like a month later and then we got married
• 44:59
  Speaker 1: in March, so it's like or five months.
• 45:01
  Speaker 3: It was a whirlwind, which is a pretty typical length
• 45:04
  Speaker 3: of time from what I've seen of kind of return
• 45:07
  Speaker 3: missionaries getting married.
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and it was. It happened at a very interesting
• 45:11
  Speaker 1: time too, because I had a couple of friends that
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: I was living with, and they were friends that I
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: had known before, and they were starting to party. So
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: we had some you know, uh ke geers at the
• 45:24
  Speaker 1: house and some parties and stuff like that. So I
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: was headed down this road of kind of leaving and
• 45:29
  Speaker 1: going out and exploring my sewing, my wild oats when
• 45:33
  Speaker 1: I met her and then my focus completely changed. It
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: was almost like within myself, I knew that if I kept,
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: if I didn't get married, that I was going to
• 45:46
  Speaker 1: go another direction that I had been holding in shame
• 45:50
  Speaker 1: for a long long time. And that's that's one of
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: the things I think we're probably going to talk about today.
• 45:54
  Speaker 1: Was the place that I held myself in shame.
• 45:57
  Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, I think this is a great time
• 45:58
  Speaker 3: to kind of lean into that you're saying this almost
• 46:01
  Speaker 3: dichotomy of getting married in that way would maybe keep
• 46:06
  Speaker 3: you on the straight and narrow versus wanting to go
• 46:10
  Speaker 3: out and sew your wild oats.
• 46:12
  Speaker 1: We talk about this a lot with.
• 46:13
  Speaker 3: The men's counsels of like what are like attitudes towards
• 46:19
  Speaker 3: our bodies, towards sexuality, towards pornography, which has touched almost
• 46:24
  Speaker 3: every man we've talked to his life in one way
• 46:26
  Speaker 3: or another. Can you talk to a little bit about
• 46:29
  Speaker 3: the kind of shame that you carried and also like
• 46:32
  Speaker 3: when you got married, like were you a virgin? What
• 46:35
  Speaker 3: were your attitudes towards sex those sorts of things.
• 46:40
  Speaker 1: This is where Steve and I have gone into the
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: woods together and had quite a few conversations about this,
• 46:46
  Speaker 1: and this is some where some of my perspectives have
• 46:49
  Speaker 1: been able to shift through our conversation. So, first of all,
• 46:53
  Speaker 1: thank you for going there. And I want you to
• 46:55
  Speaker 1: know that I feel significantly less shame now about all this,
• 47:01
  Speaker 1: and I can talk about it without a feeling of
• 47:04
  Speaker 1: shame inside of myself beautiful because of you.
• 47:08
  Speaker 3: You know, I just want to say how much that
• 47:10
  Speaker 3: means to me and to this work, because it's rare
• 47:15
  Speaker 3: for somebody to honestly talk about something that they used
• 47:19
  Speaker 3: to hold in shame and have put down it and
• 47:22
  Speaker 3: to talk about it openly on a podcast where anybody
• 47:24
  Speaker 3: could be listening. And it's exactly the sort of thing
• 47:27
  Speaker 3: that most people try to hide for obvious reasons. So
• 47:32
  Speaker 3: I just want to commend your bravery for kind of
• 47:34
  Speaker 3: talking about these things. The easy thing to do is
• 47:36
  Speaker 3: just not and it's what keeps the shame cycles perpetuating.
• 47:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, and I think you know this is one
• 47:45
  Speaker 1: of the main things that you and I have had
• 47:47
  Speaker 1: over and over, just discussions and explored. And let me
• 47:52
  Speaker 1: go back in time a little bit, back to little Scott.
• 47:57
  Speaker 1: So when I was six years old, I went through
• 48:00
  Speaker 1: some sexual abuse and I'm not going to go into
• 48:04
  Speaker 1: any detail about what that was, but suffice it to
• 48:08
  Speaker 1: say that I was introduced to the concept of sexuality
• 48:12
  Speaker 1: too early of an age, and I didn't It wasn't
• 48:16
  Speaker 1: like I lost my virginity or anything like that yet,
• 48:19
  Speaker 1: but it was an introduction to something that I was
• 48:24
  Speaker 1: just like, didn't even know what was going on, and
• 48:28
  Speaker 1: there were other people involved in that, obviously, an older girl,
• 48:32
  Speaker 1: any younger girl. The older girl was a babysitter, and
• 48:35
  Speaker 1: the younger girl, I'm not going to mention who it
• 48:37
  Speaker 1: was or anything like that, but she was close to
• 48:39
  Speaker 1: my age, and this babysitter was a teenager and she
• 48:43
  Speaker 1: was trying to teach us what sex was about. Of course,
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: she was, you know, twelve, thirteen years old, so she
• 48:49
  Speaker 1: didn't really know either, but we were the exploration material
• 48:54
  Speaker 1: that she was using for that, and it was something
• 48:58
  Speaker 1: that that experience is something that never got forgotten in me.
• 49:06
  Speaker 1: But I didn't also hold it really in a shameful
• 49:09
  Speaker 1: place or realize the impact that it had had on
• 49:11
  Speaker 1: me until later. So kind of fast forward. I got
• 49:17
  Speaker 1: introduced to pornography also at a pretty young age back
• 49:21
  Speaker 1: in the day. This is in the sixties, late sixties, seventies,
• 49:25
  Speaker 1: so pornography was a whole lot less graphic and open
• 49:30
  Speaker 1: and available than it is these days, obviously, and what
• 49:34
  Speaker 1: I was introduced to was pretty soft stuff. However, you know,
• 49:38
  Speaker 1: as a young boy witnessing some of those things and
• 49:42
  Speaker 1: starting to feel some certain feelings in your body, you
• 49:45
  Speaker 1: really don't know what that is or what to do
• 49:47
  Speaker 1: with it, and so masturbation became a part of that
• 49:50
  Speaker 1: at a pretty young age, and masturbation became like my
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: comfort place. That was my little as a little boy.
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: That was what I was using to comfort myself when
• 50:03
  Speaker 1: I felt lonely. That's what I used to comfort myself
• 50:06
  Speaker 1: when I felt bad, when I'd been yelled at, or
• 50:10
  Speaker 1: when things were going on in my life. It was
• 50:11
  Speaker 1: what I used as a as a young boy.
• 50:14
  Speaker 3: I just wanted to take a second to just poor
• 50:16
  Speaker 3: compassion on the little young version of Scotty, who you know,
• 50:21
  Speaker 3: going through all of the things in your life, found
• 50:23
  Speaker 3: a natural release of hormones and that sued you in
• 50:29
  Speaker 3: some way and just highlight how just typical a story
• 50:36
  Speaker 3: that is.
• 50:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it really is. And I didn't, of course realize
• 50:41
  Speaker 1: that at the time. I thought I was alone in this.
• 50:45
  Speaker 1: And you know, I went through my childhood and through
• 50:49
  Speaker 1: my adolescence with being having more and more exposure to it,
• 50:54
  Speaker 1: and the more that I liked to I've talked to
• 50:59
  Speaker 1: men about this a lot. I lived through the evolution
• 51:04
  Speaker 1: of porn from what it was when it was pretty,
• 51:07
  Speaker 1: you know, mild, through all of the different technological advances
• 51:12
  Speaker 1: and changes that happened with it through everything, and you know,
• 51:16
  Speaker 1: I've got Ray sitting here to my side and this
• 51:20
  Speaker 1: I dumped all this on her right in the beginning,
• 51:23
  Speaker 1: so that she I was afraid she was just going
• 51:26
  Speaker 1: to run away. But I wanted to make sure that
• 51:28
  Speaker 1: when we were in a relationship that she was fully
• 51:31
  Speaker 1: aware of where I had been and that what I
• 51:35
  Speaker 1: had done and where I was. And I remember one
• 51:37
  Speaker 1: day just we were up in bear Lake and we
• 51:40
  Speaker 1: were sleeping in the back of my truck cause we
• 51:42
  Speaker 1: were at my friend's house. And I said, and I
• 51:44
  Speaker 1: told her all this stuff, and she's just sitting there listening,
• 51:49
  Speaker 1: and I said, are you going to run away yet?
• 51:54
  Speaker 1: Of course she said, of course not, because she could
• 51:59
  Speaker 1: see something I couldn't see at the time. She could
• 52:05
  Speaker 1: see that within all of that and those experiences, there
• 52:10
  Speaker 1: was something else going on. So she recognized that early
• 52:15
  Speaker 1: and before I did. And it was her holding that
• 52:20
  Speaker 1: candle and her holding that energy that helped me have
• 52:27
  Speaker 1: energy for myself, that helped me lean deeper and deeper
• 52:31
  Speaker 1: into it, because that wasn't the case in my first marriage.
• 52:35
  Speaker 1: And that's not saying anything negative about my former wife,
• 52:39
  Speaker 1: because you know, she had her own experiences and her
• 52:43
  Speaker 1: own trauma and her own life experience that when we
• 52:48
  Speaker 1: got married. I was a virgin when we got married,
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: by the way, and so was she, and we had
• 52:55
  Speaker 1: no idea what any of that really was. I remember it,
• 53:00
  Speaker 1: you know, the whole experience of it, and you know,
• 53:03
  Speaker 1: like trying to not touch each other while we so
• 53:06
  Speaker 1: we could stay worthy to get our temple recommends so
• 53:10
  Speaker 1: that we could go get married in the temple and
• 53:12
  Speaker 1: all this just really weird stuff that it's all shame
• 53:16
  Speaker 1: based stuff. I think it would have been more beneficial
• 53:20
  Speaker 1: if we had been open and exploring what intimacy is,
• 53:26
  Speaker 1: not what sex is, but what true intimacy was. But
• 53:29
  Speaker 1: that had never been taught. I didn't learn anything about intimacy.
• 53:33
  Speaker 1: I had no clue what intimacy was until Ray and
• 53:37
  Speaker 1: I came together and we started having conversations and experiences
• 53:42
  Speaker 1: together of true intimacy. And that happened from the very beginning,
• 53:48
  Speaker 1: and we had an active physical relationship. But our relationship
• 53:54
  Speaker 1: you can relate to this now because this is what
• 53:56
  Speaker 1: you talked about in your podcast with Carrie. That was
• 53:59
  Speaker 1: not the focus of our relationship. Yeah, of course, the
• 54:02
  Speaker 1: fact that we were both in our fifties made a
• 54:05
  Speaker 1: little bit of a difference there. However, you know, we
• 54:09
  Speaker 1: both were super loving and attracted to each other in
• 54:13
  Speaker 1: a physical way, but much more than that mentally, emotionally, spiritually, physically,
• 54:20
  Speaker 1: all those ways were ways that we were attracted to
• 54:23
  Speaker 1: each other. And we've been walking this path through all that.
• 54:28
  Speaker 3: It's i mean, one of the most inspiring things, like
• 54:30
  Speaker 3: I talked about at the beginning, that I see as
• 54:32
  Speaker 3: like the pillar of the relational model is you're connecting emotionally, spiritually,
• 54:40
  Speaker 3: uh physically, sexually all of them, and you feel safe enough,
• 54:44
  Speaker 3: even after the wounding of all the stuff that we'll
• 54:46
  Speaker 3: get to in a second, to open up and share
• 54:51
  Speaker 3: yourself authentically with your partner instead of hide all of
• 54:55
  Speaker 3: that stuff more in shame. And then just so much
• 54:58
  Speaker 3: credit to the ray being able to hold all of
• 55:02
  Speaker 3: you in your authenticity. It just really speaks to a
• 55:07
  Speaker 3: model that I think if more people were able to
• 55:10
  Speaker 3: lean into, we'd see more intimacy and less connection or
• 55:15
  Speaker 3: less disconnection.
• 55:17
  Speaker 1: I want to get to.
• 55:19
  Speaker 3: You're married, you're leaning into being like a quote unquote
• 55:24
  Speaker 3: good LDS couple having kids, You're trying to stay on
• 55:29
  Speaker 3: the straight and narrow path, and meanwhile you're thinking in
• 55:34
  Speaker 3: the background, like I've got this shameful secret. I use
• 55:38
  Speaker 3: pornography and masturbate release stress hormones. Like that's my comfort Still,
• 55:43
  Speaker 3: it's still my comfort blanket. And what were the kind
• 55:47
  Speaker 3: of general attitudes towards that, like if that sort of
• 55:51
  Speaker 3: stuff were to come to light in that society, Like,
• 55:55
  Speaker 3: what are the implications.
• 55:58
  Speaker 1: Well, I think speaking for my relationship with my former wife,
• 56:02
  Speaker 1: I mean she she saw some of that early on,
• 56:07
  Speaker 1: but didn't know the depth of it at all. She
• 56:11
  Speaker 1: saw just a little bit because I think we had
• 56:13
  Speaker 1: a couple of conversations about it, but she had no
• 56:15
  Speaker 1: idea that I was addicted or any of that. Some
• 56:18
  Speaker 1: of that came to light later. I remember when I
• 56:20
  Speaker 1: was in college at Utah State that I went and
• 56:24
  Speaker 1: met with one of the psychology professors and talked to
• 56:28
  Speaker 1: him about it because they were starting to talk about
• 56:32
  Speaker 1: pornography as an addiction. And even today, some people debate
• 56:37
  Speaker 1: whether or not it's an addiction or not. You know,
• 56:39
  Speaker 1: they don't like to have that word used around it.
• 56:43
  Speaker 1: And I'm not going to debate whether it is or
• 56:44
  Speaker 1: it isn't or any of that here but I remember
• 56:48
  Speaker 1: going in and having a conversation about it. But this
• 56:50
  Speaker 1: is like early on, but that was my first real
• 56:54
  Speaker 1: conversation with anyone where I explored that, hey, maybe this
• 56:58
  Speaker 1: is something that I can and can get rid of.
• 57:02
  Speaker 1: Because inside the church, what it had always been is
• 57:04
  Speaker 1: you need to control your mind, you need to control
• 57:08
  Speaker 1: your thoughts, you need One of the metaphors was you
• 57:12
  Speaker 1: can't let the bird land in the nest in your
• 57:15
  Speaker 1: in your head. If a bird comes and lands in
• 57:18
  Speaker 1: your in a tree and you don't cast the bird
• 57:21
  Speaker 1: out of the tree, it's gonna build a nest. Then
• 57:24
  Speaker 1: that nest is gonna be there, and it's gonna have
• 57:27
  Speaker 1: more birds, more babies, and it's gonna grow, and it's
• 57:31
  Speaker 1: gonna get bigger, and pretty soon it's gonna take you over.
• 57:33
  Speaker 1: It was always about this negative energy outside of me
• 57:39
  Speaker 1: that was influencing or tempting me that you know, there's
• 57:44
  Speaker 1: lots of names for and uh, I don't see that
• 57:48
  Speaker 1: as an as a being, exactly like I don't see
• 57:53
  Speaker 1: God as a being. I see it all as one.
• 57:58
  Speaker 1: So when we experience shadow or when we experience light,
• 58:04
  Speaker 1: how would we know what light is unless there were shadow?
• 58:07
  Speaker 1: How would we know what shadow is unless there's light.
• 58:11
  Speaker 1: What if we showed up here already knowing everything, we
• 58:14
  Speaker 1: didn't have all of these experiences that are difficult, we'd
• 58:18
  Speaker 1: never have an appreciation of what life really is. Wouldn't
• 58:21
  Speaker 1: there wouldn't be in need. So it's part of life
• 58:24
  Speaker 1: and part of living. But you know, at the time,
• 58:26
  Speaker 1: I didn't understand any of that. I was just going
• 58:30
  Speaker 1: through it and in a super shameful place. Every time
• 58:34
  Speaker 1: that I would you know what's the word. Every time
• 58:38
  Speaker 1: I would uh cave in or fall or whatever word
• 58:43
  Speaker 1: was being used at the time, I'd feel bad, I'd
• 58:48
  Speaker 1: feel less than and my self esteem would deteriorate more
• 58:52
  Speaker 1: and more and more every time. And I'd go periods
• 58:55
  Speaker 1: of time where nothing was happening, but then cave again
• 58:59
  Speaker 1: and how So it's the cycles. And this is super
• 59:02
  Speaker 1: normal with any kind of addiction, whether it's drugs or
• 59:06
  Speaker 1: alcohol or whatever it is. You know, a period of
• 59:08
  Speaker 1: time of sobriety and then falling again, and the longer
• 59:14
  Speaker 1: time went on. I didn't realize at the time how
• 59:17
  Speaker 1: much my involvement in that had an effect on my
• 59:24
  Speaker 1: relationship with intimacy and partnership and friendship and everything else
• 59:30
  Speaker 1: with my partner.
• 59:31
  Speaker 3: Well, yeah, that's when all of it kind of came
• 59:35
  Speaker 3: to lightens all out in the open. What were the
• 59:39
  Speaker 3: kind of effects and results that that had on their
• 59:43
  Speaker 3: relationship and anything else.
• 59:44
  Speaker 1: There were a couple of times that it came out,
• 59:46
  Speaker 1: but one toward the end I think is probably where
• 59:49
  Speaker 1: we want to go. And that one toward the end
• 59:52
  Speaker 1: was when I went on a trip to Becky East
• 59:56
  Speaker 1: the job that I had, I was working, I would
• 59:59
  Speaker 1: fly to different and I had gone back East and
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 1: while I was there, I had rented some pornography videos
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 1: and I went to take them back and I couldn't
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 1: take them back because timing didn't work out or whatever.
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 1: And so there was a hotel bell boy there, bell
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 1: man there, and I went up and I gave him
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 1: twenty bucks. I said, will you take these back to
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 1: the video store for me? And he was like, uh sure.
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 1: So I didn't give it another thought. Well about a
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 1: week later, I'm sitting at work. Then I get a
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 1: phone call and it's my former wife and she starts
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 1: naming off the names of all of these videos and
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 1: she goes someone called and wants to know where these
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 1: videos are and of course, you know, I'm just like, whoa,
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 1: I'm caught. Yeah, you know, all this stuff I'd been
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 1: hiding for a long time. Now it's all come to light.
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 1: And so the ramifications of that. I'm not going to
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 1: go into details of how it all happened, but basically
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 1: what ended up happening is where I was. We're active
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 1: church members, so where I was was I needed to
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 1: go confess everything to my bishop, then my state president,
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 1: and then the High Council, and then they had a
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 1: church court, and then I was excommunicated from the LDS
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 1: church in nineteen ninety eight, and that was, you know,
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 1: nutshell version of what that went on. Of course, you
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 1: know my former wife was she didn't she'd been hit
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 1: by truck, and she had her own things that she's
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 1: dealing with in her life. Plus this has added on
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 1: to it that just just kind of fueled what her
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 1: experiences had been.
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 3: And the kind of ultimate snowball effect of all of this.
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 3: You know, and I know how your heart is, I
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 3: know how you are as a father, I know how
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 3: much you care about your children. What was the ultimate
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 3: effect and like your access to your children and your marriage, Well,
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 3: it was.
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 1: Really hard because you know, I was super involved in
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 1: the upbringing of my kids. I was super involved in
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 1: their lives. I spent time with them. I was a
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 1: good dad, but there was still this little thing that
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 1: was affecting my ability to really truly deeply connect with
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 1: them or her. And it was just, you know, my
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 1: heart was not as open as it could have been.
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 1: And just without going into great detail the results of
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 1: all of that and the fighting that went on, I
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 1: spent two years trying to come back to the church.
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 1: So from ninety eight to two thousand, I did lots
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 1: of different things to you know, crossing all the t's
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 1: and dotting all the eyes to get worthy again so
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 1: that I could get rebaptized back into the church and
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 1: come back when that all was said and done at
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 1: the end, about two years into it, I went down
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 1: and got some videos at a porn store here in
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 1: Salt Lake because my wife was out of town and
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 1: I had those in the back of the car. She
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 1: came home from out of town, opened the trunk of
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 1: the car. There they were, and again it's the same
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 1: thing that happened before, but it's just two years later, yep.
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 1: And you know, at that point I was just like
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 1: the reality was is My whole feeling about it was,
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 1: I'm not going through this again. I'm done. I'm just done.
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 1: I don't care what the consequences are. I was just done.
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 1: And you know, was that the wisest thing to do.
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 1: It's easy in hindsight to wonder, but I remember, I
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 1: remember that, and and it was at that point that
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 1: then we started being towards filing for divorce. And then
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 1: there were you know, lots of trust issues and things
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 1: like that that made it difficult. And because of those
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 1: trust issues and and me being stubborn and not wanting
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 1: to comply with some of the things that were required
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 1: of me, like like uh uh, we're going to be
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 1: required of me, like uh uh, visitation with other people there,
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 1: what's that called supervisor supervised supervised visitation, and you know
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 1: all of this other stuff. And I was just like,
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 1: fuck that, I'm not doing that. That's not me. I'm
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 1: a good dad. I love these kids, and no one
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 1: is going to tell me how or where or why
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 1: or what I can be with my children. And if
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 1: I can't see them, fuck it, I can't see him.
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 1: And you know, my own stubbornness is the reality that
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 1: that created a scenario or an energy that allowed the
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 1: legal system to get involved, and I did get to
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 1: see my kids for quite a while.
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 3: I both I love the accountability that you want to
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 3: take for your pieces of hiding things are being stubborn,
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 3: and also I just want to poor compassion like as
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 3: a father to a father who is like being accused
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 3: of being unsafe to be around his own children with
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 3: no actual basis for that in fact, And my heart
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 3: just goes out to all involved. And I appreciate you
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 3: sharing that story so raw, so so vulnerably. You know,
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 3: that's it's such a real example of something like snowballing
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 3: and getting away in a way that's ripping away a
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 3: family due to all sorts of different people and different
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 3: kind of religious views all of it. I just want
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 3: to highlight how inspiring it was to me that your son,
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 3: who you weren't able to see for so many years,
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 3: like due to all of this, actually came on one
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 3: of our men's retreats. And it's rare to have a
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 3: father son duo connect on these men's retreats. It's always inspiring.
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 3: I'm always a little bit jealous, honestly, I wish I
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 3: could see more of that or experience it myself, and
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 3: the whole arc of your story through being excommunicated, ripped
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 3: away from your family, and then building into the man
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 3: you are today. It's just one of the most inspiring
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 3: arcs that I've heard, and I'm glad we're kind of
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 3: memorializing it.
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 1: On this podcast.
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 2: I just want to add though, that, you know, the consequence,
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 2: the hardest consequence I believe that is experienced in that
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 2: scenario are the experiences that the children have. Sure, and
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 2: they're still young, you know, they're they're still in early
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 2: aspects of their adulthood, and you know, we see aspects
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 2: of that experience showing up and probably will continue to
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 2: see that. And all that can be done is just
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 2: encouraging them to do their work, you know, to do
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 2: whatever whatever wounding that that created unintentionally, that we hold
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 2: the space for them with all the love and compassion
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 2: that we can to do the work and erase whatever
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 2: narratives they have, or aches they have, or longingness that
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 2: they have of those mischief in childhood, because there's no
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 2: magic wand and every child that experiences that, whether it's
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 2: Scott's three children or any other child in a couple,
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 2: they have their own experience based on their perception of it,
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 2: and so even his three children have very different perceptions,
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 2: and you know, so it is. We're very fortunate that
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 2: Scott's relationship with his children is strong and beautiful, and
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 2: we're very grateful for that. But I just want to
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 2: highlight that it's it doesn't all get healed in the
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 2: timescape or the timeline that.
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 1: That we would all wish for. Yeah, that's very true.
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 1: As we've been witnessing it. The amount of healing that
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 1: has happened, not only with the children but with my
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 1: former wife Michelle over the last year or two, it's
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 1: been it's been pretty cool to experience, and not anything
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 1: that I really held a hope out for, but it's
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 1: been it's been very cool. And I want to go
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 1: back just a little bit and talk about, you know,
• 1:09:16
  Speaker 1: Michelle firm for just a minute, because you know her
• 1:09:18
  Speaker 1: experiences and what she would say about this is going
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 1: to be a very different perspective, which is fine, and
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 1: it doesn't none of that really matters, but I don't
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 1: what I don't want don't want to do is place
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 1: blame for this onto her. I don't want that to
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 1: come through in what I'm saying because I made choices
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 1: and I was super stubborn and when I said fuck it,
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 1: that's that. That was like this this line that I
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 1: had crossed that I wasn't wasn't going to back down from.
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 1: And it's crazy because you know, you would think that
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 1: a father would do absolutely anything to be with their children,
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 1: but because of the dynamics of how the legal system
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 1: is set up, how psychologists are involved, how special masters
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 1: that got made part of the the divorce process, and
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 1: different things were relied upon by both of us. You know,
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 1: things didn't show up the way I wanted them to,
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 1: and I wasn't willing to. I jumped. I still jumped
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 1: through a boatload of hoops, but there were certain things
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 1: that I wasn't willing to do, and you know, it
• 1:10:43
  Speaker 1: took a toll and it's still, like like Larigo said,
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 1: it's still as difficult, I am sure for the kids
• 1:10:50
  Speaker 1: because of that, my son. We we've been spending time
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 1: with all of them and Michelle because her she had
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 1: a couple of people in her family pass away recently,
• 1:11:01
  Speaker 1: so we've had some healing conversations that have gone on
• 1:11:05
  Speaker 1: there and it was refreshing to see it and it
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 1: was refreshing for me to go back to be part
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 1: of her family again. She comes from a big family too.
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 1: Her family has eight in it as well. She's the
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 1: oldest of her family. I'm the youngest of my family.
• 1:11:25
  Speaker 1: So when we got married, we came into her I
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 1: came into their family, and all of a sudden, I
• 1:11:32
  Speaker 1: was a big brother. I'd never been a big brother before.
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 1: And I just had this conversation with a bunch of
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 1: her siblings at her father's funeral, and it was pretty
• 1:11:48
  Speaker 1: cool to see that, after all the pain that had
• 1:11:52
  Speaker 1: been gone through by everyone on every side, that I
• 1:11:58
  Speaker 1: could still feel their love for me and my love
• 1:12:05
  Speaker 1: for them. You know, seventeen years we were married, so
• 1:12:10
  Speaker 1: it wasn't just an overnight thing. It wasn't a short period.
• 1:12:13
  Speaker 1: It was seventeen years. And there were like four of
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 1: her siblings surrounding me talking with me about it at
• 1:12:25
  Speaker 1: her father's gravesite, and I said that, you know, I'd
• 1:12:30
  Speaker 1: never knew what it was like to be a big
• 1:12:33
  Speaker 1: brother until I was with them, and in some ways,
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 1: again going back to the shame I had been feeling
• 1:12:43
  Speaker 1: all this time, that maybe is the big brother that
• 1:12:46
  Speaker 1: I was for them, that I had failed in some way,
• 1:12:50
  Speaker 1: and I could feel from them. Ray was there, She
• 1:12:53
  Speaker 1: witnessed this too. You could just feel from them their
• 1:12:56
  Speaker 1: love and that was super healing to feel that from
• 1:13:04
  Speaker 1: her family. Not even just her family, I mean people
• 1:13:07
  Speaker 1: from the old Ward where I got excommunicated were just
• 1:13:10
  Speaker 1: coming up and hugging me, and cousins of hers that
• 1:13:14
  Speaker 1: we had gone Tod like Powell with on trips and
• 1:13:16
  Speaker 1: different things. It was. It was really super healing for me.
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 1: So I want to just open my heart with gratitude
• 1:13:26
  Speaker 1: that this is something that's now healing. It's something that's
• 1:13:33
  Speaker 1: that's in the process of healing in a deeper way
• 1:13:36
  Speaker 1: than it has before.
• 1:13:38
  Speaker 3: It's incredible to I mean, I feel your authentic emotion
• 1:13:42
  Speaker 3: about human connections that were you know, made and severed
• 1:13:46
  Speaker 3: in ways that was totally outside of anybody's intentions, and
• 1:13:52
  Speaker 3: just want to reflect, like, I don't know anybody who
• 1:13:56
  Speaker 3: has a bigger or better heart than Scott, and I
• 1:14:01
  Speaker 3: know it's always been.
• 1:14:02
  Speaker 1: There and it was hidden for a while, and I
• 1:14:05
  Speaker 1: can tell you.
• 1:14:06
  Speaker 3: Well, it's it's just such. It's such a good It's
• 1:14:09
  Speaker 3: a beautiful, human, messy story the type that don't usually
• 1:14:16
  Speaker 3: get trouted out there and also like one of the
• 1:14:20
  Speaker 3: most beautiful that I'm aware of. I really appreciate the
• 1:14:24
  Speaker 3: vulnerability of it. I think it's powerful to memorialize it,
• 1:14:29
  Speaker 3: and just you know, as someone who does a lot
• 1:14:31
  Speaker 3: of men's work, the kind of accountability that you take
• 1:14:37
  Speaker 3: for every part of your own role. Honestly, in my opinion,
• 1:14:41
  Speaker 3: sometimes maybe taking on accountability for stuff that wasn't even yours,
• 1:14:44
  Speaker 3: because you can reclaim more of your power there. It's
• 1:14:47
  Speaker 3: an inspiration. It would be easy to blame outside other
• 1:14:55
  Speaker 3: be bitter all of it, and it wouldn't necessarily be
• 1:14:58
  Speaker 3: an invalid perspective to do so, and yet you've chosen
• 1:15:03
  Speaker 3: the perspective that leads to your growth and healing. And
• 1:15:07
  Speaker 3: yet another kind of inspiration in a nurse star for
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 3: both myself.
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 1: And I think.
• 1:15:15
  Speaker 3: Kind of anybody listening. So, having been through all of
• 1:15:20
  Speaker 3: that and getting to the point that you are, now,
• 1:15:25
  Speaker 3: how do you view, like, in this case, the pornography
• 1:15:29
  Speaker 3: and the hiding of it was an explosive combination blew
• 1:15:35
  Speaker 3: up so much. How do you view pornography the shame
• 1:15:41
  Speaker 3: around it as well as the kind of hiding from
• 1:15:44
  Speaker 3: your current perspective?
• 1:15:46
  Speaker 1: Well, thanks for the question, Steve, because this is this
• 1:15:49
  Speaker 1: is kind of where you and I went when we
• 1:15:51
  Speaker 1: were we would sit and talk about it, and we
• 1:15:55
  Speaker 1: were in some men's groups and men's councils and sitting
• 1:15:58
  Speaker 1: in the tepee. There were various different places that we
• 1:16:00
  Speaker 1: talked about it. And you kept bringing that up. You know, well,
• 1:16:04
  Speaker 1: I think you still have some shame in there somewhere,
• 1:16:07
  Speaker 1: you know. I was sure trying to tell you that
• 1:16:10
  Speaker 1: I didn't have any shame, but the shame was what
• 1:16:18
  Speaker 1: the shame was what drove the behavior, and I learned that.
• 1:16:25
  Speaker 1: Here's how I learned that. So I told you in
• 1:16:27
  Speaker 1: two thousand and eight, I had an experience that shifted.
• 1:16:30
  Speaker 1: So I stopped watching porn and participating in that, and
• 1:16:34
  Speaker 1: I went back to church because that's what I thought
• 1:16:36
  Speaker 1: was the thing to do. So I went back to church,
• 1:16:39
  Speaker 1: and I confessed all my sins again to the bishop
• 1:16:43
  Speaker 1: and the state president. But there was more sins. Now
• 1:16:45
  Speaker 1: I'd been single for ten years, so there was a
• 1:16:48
  Speaker 1: lot more yep. But I went through all of that
• 1:16:52
  Speaker 1: and told them what it were I had been and
• 1:16:54
  Speaker 1: what I was feeling, and of course they welcomed me
• 1:16:57
  Speaker 1: with open arms, and they loved to be. They wanted
• 1:17:00
  Speaker 1: to help me, They wanted to give me what they
• 1:17:02
  Speaker 1: felt like I needed. My brother, Jeff was on a
• 1:17:05
  Speaker 1: mission in Hawaii, and I expressed it to him, and
• 1:17:08
  Speaker 1: he gave me lots of advice and based on his
• 1:17:11
  Speaker 1: life experiences and things that he had had and he
• 1:17:16
  Speaker 1: I remember him telling me, and this isn't something to
• 1:17:18
  Speaker 1: say something about about Jeff, because Jeff is just giving
• 1:17:21
  Speaker 1: the party line, which is the line of the religion.
• 1:17:25
  Speaker 1: Religion that the way to overcome something is to do
• 1:17:29
  Speaker 1: three things. Pray, read your scriptures, and attend your church meetings.
• 1:17:36
  Speaker 1: And I had a few additional things that I had
• 1:17:38
  Speaker 1: to do on top of that. I had to meet
• 1:17:40
  Speaker 1: with my bishop every week. And those were the main
• 1:17:45
  Speaker 1: things that I needed to be focused on. So I
• 1:17:47
  Speaker 1: started focusing on those, feeling like that those would be
• 1:17:51
  Speaker 1: the things that would help me to control my mind
• 1:17:57
  Speaker 1: and to get the birds out of the nest and
• 1:18:01
  Speaker 1: change my life. I was going to go all in.
• 1:18:04
  Speaker 1: I was going to be back in the church and
• 1:18:06
  Speaker 1: all that. Six months later, after having done that, every
• 1:18:13
  Speaker 1: time I would go to church, I wasn't a member
• 1:18:15
  Speaker 1: yet again, so I couldn't partake of the sacrament I
• 1:18:18
  Speaker 1: couldn't take the sacrament, the bread and water. I couldn't
• 1:18:23
  Speaker 1: speak in class. I couldn't get up and pray in
• 1:18:27
  Speaker 1: front of anyone. I couldn't do any of those things.
• 1:18:30
  Speaker 1: And so because I wasn't a member, I was limited
• 1:18:34
  Speaker 1: in how I could participate. And that didn't bother me
• 1:18:40
  Speaker 1: too much. But what I started to notice is that
• 1:18:43
  Speaker 1: it started taking me back down that spiral of shame again,
• 1:18:49
  Speaker 1: and it took me deeper and deeper. And where the
• 1:18:52
  Speaker 1: shame leads to then is self esteem decreases get to
• 1:18:57
  Speaker 1: a certain point. And then I was like, here's my computer.
• 1:19:05
  Speaker 1: Maybe I just go turn it on and look at
• 1:19:07
  Speaker 1: some girls and bikinis. You know, I'm a man. I'm
• 1:19:12
  Speaker 1: just gonna go. You know, it's at that whole shame
• 1:19:15
  Speaker 1: based kind of of things. I'm just gonna dip my
• 1:19:18
  Speaker 1: toe in the water. Well, about three, four or five
• 1:19:24
  Speaker 1: weeks later, I was I could see I was headed
• 1:19:27
  Speaker 1: right back into the addiction cycle that I'd always been in,
• 1:19:32
  Speaker 1: and I was like, what, why am I going back there?
• 1:19:39
  Speaker 1: I had this experience in December of two thousand and eight,
• 1:19:43
  Speaker 1: and here it was like May June, and I was like,
• 1:19:47
  Speaker 1: why am I Why am I doing this? Why am
• 1:19:50
  Speaker 1: I going down this road? Why am I experiencing this again?
• 1:19:56
  Speaker 1: And I had an experience with a kidney stuff one morning,
• 1:20:03
  Speaker 1: and when that I had to go to the hospital
• 1:20:07
  Speaker 1: and it was so painful, and this was I've never
• 1:20:10
  Speaker 1: even said this before to you, that this It was
• 1:20:13
  Speaker 1: so painful my kidney. I was passing this stone and
• 1:20:18
  Speaker 1: it was so painful. I've never had that before. So
• 1:20:20
  Speaker 1: I go in and I have this experience. Well, uh,
• 1:20:24
  Speaker 1: I had taken it from the level of of uh,
• 1:20:30
  Speaker 1: watching pornography. There was this girl that I knew, and
• 1:20:33
  Speaker 1: I had her come over that night and went all
• 1:20:37
  Speaker 1: in back back to the same old pattern, And the
• 1:20:42
  Speaker 1: next morning woke up with a kidney stone, went to
• 1:20:46
  Speaker 1: the hospital, had that experience, came back. I had a
• 1:20:52
  Speaker 1: conversation with her. She knew my whole background and everything
• 1:20:55
  Speaker 1: like that. I had a conversation with her about it,
• 1:21:00
  Speaker 1: and we parted ways. I left the church. I knew
• 1:21:06
  Speaker 1: that wasn't the way to go. I started back down
• 1:21:10
  Speaker 1: the road. I knew I wasn't going to go down
• 1:21:11
  Speaker 1: that road again. I wasn't going to go and do
• 1:21:13
  Speaker 1: all of that stuff again. And then I started working
• 1:21:17
  Speaker 1: on me. I started going within myself. I started going fishing.
• 1:21:23
  Speaker 1: I'd take my truck and go up into the mountains
• 1:21:26
  Speaker 1: of the Grays River in Wyoming by myself like a tent,
• 1:21:32
  Speaker 1: get out, weighed in the water, look at the mountains,
• 1:21:36
  Speaker 1: connect the nature. I was creating a relationship that was
• 1:21:42
  Speaker 1: more connected. I was leaving the things behind me that
• 1:21:48
  Speaker 1: were not who I was. As I've said many times,
• 1:21:52
  Speaker 1: I was learning who I wasn't during this time, and
• 1:21:55
  Speaker 1: I needed to start learning who I was. And this
• 1:21:58
  Speaker 1: was just the beginning stage of that. And it's been unfolding,
• 1:22:01
  Speaker 1: you know, ever since. And there's been lots of failures,
• 1:22:04
  Speaker 1: and Ray's been part of some of the failures. I
• 1:22:07
  Speaker 1: call them failures, they're not failures. Some of the lessons,
• 1:22:11
  Speaker 1: learning opportunities, learning opportunities, and you know, she has some
• 1:22:15
  Speaker 1: of the things. We can go on to another podcast
• 1:22:17
  Speaker 1: talking about hers. But you know, we were walking this
• 1:22:21
  Speaker 1: path together. We were walking this together, and we were
• 1:22:27
  Speaker 1: open and sharing and loving, and she was patient with
• 1:22:31
  Speaker 1: me and I was patient with her. And when our
• 1:22:35
  Speaker 1: lives came together, it was after I'd been working on
• 1:22:37
  Speaker 1: myself for about a year and a half. That's when
• 1:22:41
  Speaker 1: our lives crossed, and during that year and a half
• 1:22:44
  Speaker 1: I had done a lot of work. I didn't know
• 1:22:47
  Speaker 1: anything about the kind of work we're doing now. It
• 1:22:49
  Speaker 1: wasn't that kind of work. It was just me letting
• 1:22:51
  Speaker 1: go of the shit that needed to be let go
• 1:22:54
  Speaker 1: of and being more in nature and delving into other things.
• 1:22:59
  Speaker 3: It's hm, it's just so beautiful witnessing you share such
• 1:23:03
  Speaker 3: a raw human story. Looking at both of you over
• 1:23:06
  Speaker 3: there on your love seat, so obviously in love and support,
• 1:23:10
  Speaker 3: are chilling, are spinning less. Don't spin it too far
• 1:23:13
  Speaker 3: because Larry's water could spill. But I want to get
• 1:23:17
  Speaker 3: to you were just talking about meaning Loray, and it's
• 1:23:19
  Speaker 3: such an important chapter of your story. I just want
• 1:23:23
  Speaker 3: to kind of your personal experience that you just shared
• 1:23:27
  Speaker 3: of noticing this sinking deeper into shame and your self
• 1:23:31
  Speaker 3: esteem dropping, and from that place of lower self esteem
• 1:23:36
  Speaker 3: and feeling disconnected and pushed away and bad for and
• 1:23:40
  Speaker 3: from those places, all of these unhealthy coping mechanisms, all
• 1:23:44
  Speaker 3: of these things that could be considered addictions are what.
• 1:23:47
  Speaker 3: It's so universal And at the risk of getting on
• 1:23:50
  Speaker 3: my soapbox for a second, to use your term like
• 1:23:53
  Speaker 3: the thing is not the thing. It's not the porn,
• 1:23:57
  Speaker 3: it's not the alcohol, it's not even the cocaine. It's
• 1:23:59
  Speaker 3: not any of those, like any of these unhealthy substances
• 1:24:02
  Speaker 3: or unhealthy behaviors, which I don't want to glamorize into
• 1:24:06
  Speaker 3: saying they're like great good choices to.
• 1:24:08
  Speaker 1: Be doing their distractions.
• 1:24:11
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's porn out so much in our men's
• 1:24:15
  Speaker 3: work that this like idea that lots of religions do,
• 1:24:19
  Speaker 3: but LDS seems to take it to the extreme of well,
• 1:24:23
  Speaker 3: just shame the thing really hard and then it'll go away.
• 1:24:26
  Speaker 3: Is the very thing that keeps it stuck. They had
• 1:24:30
  Speaker 3: to shut down the LDS like porn Rehabilitation program because
• 1:24:34
  Speaker 3: even by their own data, it was making it worse.
• 1:24:37
  Speaker 3: And I'm not saying it's an easy problem. We deal
• 1:24:40
  Speaker 3: in men's work, and like any men out there who
• 1:24:42
  Speaker 3: are struggling with like wanting to stop watching porn and
• 1:24:45
  Speaker 3: having trouble with it, that's pretty normal and there are
• 1:24:48
  Speaker 3: far more successful strategies that involve not shaming it, and
• 1:24:52
  Speaker 3: you can stop, like I choose not to watch porn
• 1:24:55
  Speaker 3: and it's not a problem for me. But in a
• 1:24:58
  Speaker 3: shame based system, I don't think I would have been
• 1:25:01
  Speaker 3: able to make that choice, I think I'd be stuck
• 1:25:03
  Speaker 3: in the same system. And I think it applies to alcohol.
• 1:25:06
  Speaker 3: I think it applies to all of these things. So
• 1:25:08
  Speaker 3: just wanted to put my two cents in there. And
• 1:25:10
  Speaker 3: why I felt so compelled to have this kind of
• 1:25:15
  Speaker 3: story memorialized. I want to be able to send this
• 1:25:18
  Speaker 3: episode to people who feel they're in it deep, or
• 1:25:22
  Speaker 3: that their life has been blown up by their addiction,
• 1:25:25
  Speaker 3: or hiding their addiction from their partner, and all of it,
• 1:25:28
  Speaker 3: because it's just so inspiring to hear.
• 1:25:31
  Speaker 1: It wasn't until I stopped holding pornography in a shameful place,
• 1:25:38
  Speaker 1: which you helped me with, Thank you, that its power
• 1:25:42
  Speaker 1: began to dissipate. And one of the things that I've
• 1:25:46
  Speaker 1: talked to Ray many times about it is we've discussed it,
• 1:25:49
  Speaker 1: and she's asked me how I'm doing or if I'm
• 1:25:52
  Speaker 1: having any challenges or anything. What I've consistently said to
• 1:25:56
  Speaker 1: her is I know what it makes me feel like
• 1:26:00
  Speaker 1: when I go down one of those rabbit holes for
• 1:26:03
  Speaker 1: whatever period of time I get stuck there. I know
• 1:26:07
  Speaker 1: what that feels like, and I know that it takes
• 1:26:10
  Speaker 1: me a period of time to recover and come back
• 1:26:14
  Speaker 1: out of that and get myself to a place where
• 1:26:17
  Speaker 1: I'm still I'm at a place where I'm feeling created
• 1:26:20
  Speaker 1: and creative, and I'm feeling like I'm vibrating at a
• 1:26:23
  Speaker 1: high level, and i feel like I'm in a frequency
• 1:26:26
  Speaker 1: of love and not a frequency of something dense. And
• 1:26:32
  Speaker 1: all of that has helped me, has helped me recognize
• 1:26:38
  Speaker 1: when I'm not holding in a shameful and dirty and
• 1:26:40
  Speaker 1: nasty place, that it loses its power and its hold
• 1:26:46
  Speaker 1: over you so beautifully said.
• 1:26:48
  Speaker 3: And also it feels like, looking at my outline, I
• 1:26:50
  Speaker 3: was going to ask you next about the very thing
• 1:26:54
  Speaker 3: that you just said, which is that you might still
• 1:26:56
  Speaker 3: fall into certain rabbit holes, but you notice it, and
• 1:26:59
  Speaker 3: you don't spend as much much time in them, and
• 1:27:00
  Speaker 3: you don't shame it, and therefore you're not being stuck
• 1:27:03
  Speaker 3: in that energy nearly as often and nearly as long.
• 1:27:06
  Speaker 3: And that's such an inspiring thing that I take into
• 1:27:09
  Speaker 3: my life.
• 1:27:10
  Speaker 1: Well, it's easy for us to because of the way
• 1:27:15
  Speaker 1: sexuality is portrayed in the media, the way it's portrayed
• 1:27:19
  Speaker 1: in pornography, the way it's commoditized into a transaction, and
• 1:27:24
  Speaker 1: the way all of that's done, it's easy for us
• 1:27:26
  Speaker 1: to say that's bad, that's negative, that's terrible, it's not uplifting.
• 1:27:32
  Speaker 1: I can tell you that it's not. And this is
• 1:27:35
  Speaker 1: some of the conversations you and I have thought about relationships.
• 1:27:38
  Speaker 1: It's like, well, I can I'm not married. I can
• 1:27:40
  Speaker 1: go have sex with whoever I want to anytime I
• 1:27:42
  Speaker 1: want to. If she agrees and I agree, it's all good,
• 1:27:45
  Speaker 1: that's great. But is there really an actual connection there?
• 1:27:50
  Speaker 1: And the same thing goes for when you're when you're
• 1:27:53
  Speaker 1: watching something in pornography. Cody and Cole and I had
• 1:27:57
  Speaker 1: lots of conversations about this. It's like we had a
• 1:28:02
  Speaker 1: kind of a discussion one day about whether or not
• 1:28:04
  Speaker 1: there exists pornography that's high vibe. I've guessed to find
• 1:28:09
  Speaker 1: any because what ends up happening is when you're anyone
• 1:28:13
  Speaker 1: who's willing to allow the intimacy that they have with
• 1:28:16
  Speaker 1: a partner to be memorialized in film and then shared
• 1:28:20
  Speaker 1: with a whole bunch of people, automatically brings it to
• 1:28:23
  Speaker 1: a lower vibration.
• 1:28:24
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think this is one where I think,
• 1:28:29
  Speaker 3: just like you said, my conversations with you have brought
• 1:28:31
  Speaker 3: me around to your way of thinking, because it's almost
• 1:28:34
  Speaker 3: like I overind axd on, let's not shame these things,
• 1:28:38
  Speaker 3: but almost then like they're all the same. And I
• 1:28:41
  Speaker 3: think the lesson I've learned from you is without shame
• 1:28:45
  Speaker 3: involved still discerning what energy am I in? Is it
• 1:28:49
  Speaker 3: higher vibe, is it lower vibe? What choices am I making?
• 1:28:51
  Speaker 3: Is this choice going to be a lower vibe or
• 1:28:53
  Speaker 3: higher vibe choice? And realizing the more choices I have
• 1:28:57
  Speaker 3: to stay in higher vibe but gets more of it.
• 1:29:00
  Speaker 3: And that's a choice that can be made in order
• 1:29:02
  Speaker 3: to both live a higher vibe life and spread higher
• 1:29:05
  Speaker 3: vibes to everyone else. And that's an important lesson.
• 1:29:09
  Speaker 1: Since I'm hearing you say high vibe a lot, and
• 1:29:11
  Speaker 1: I know I say it a lot, so I want
• 1:29:14
  Speaker 1: to say something about that. You know, this is kind
• 1:29:16
  Speaker 1: of a language that's come around through the New Age
• 1:29:19
  Speaker 1: and the spiritually awakened crowd, And what I want to
• 1:29:23
  Speaker 1: say about it is when we when we speak in
• 1:29:29
  Speaker 1: those terms, it's about how things feel, whether whether they
• 1:29:34
  Speaker 1: feel dense, if there's something that I'm participating in that
• 1:29:36
  Speaker 1: makes it feel like I'm walking around in mud, and
• 1:29:40
  Speaker 1: it's dense, and it's confusing, and it's distorted, and it's
• 1:29:44
  Speaker 1: you know, all those words. How does it feel in
• 1:29:49
  Speaker 1: my body? How does it feel in my body? Does
• 1:29:52
  Speaker 1: it make my body feel like it's uh not not
• 1:29:57
  Speaker 1: not just a pleasure thing, but it's a soulful experience
• 1:30:02
  Speaker 1: where my heart is involved. My heart needs to be
• 1:30:05
  Speaker 1: involved in this, not just my mind and not just
• 1:30:08
  Speaker 1: my body or my sexual organs or whatever it is.
• 1:30:11
  Speaker 1: It needs to be an embodied experience of all of it.
• 1:30:15
  Speaker 1: All of my emotions, all of my mental capacity, all
• 1:30:19
  Speaker 1: of my physical capacity, and my spiritual capacity can come
• 1:30:23
  Speaker 1: into a oneness with my partner as if we're practicing
• 1:30:30
  Speaker 1: true real intimacy and true real honesty and integrity with
• 1:30:37
  Speaker 1: each other about where we are and recognizing that she's
• 1:30:41
  Speaker 1: going to have her bad days, I'm going to have
• 1:30:43
  Speaker 1: my bad days, and we're just here to support each other.
• 1:30:46
  Speaker 1: I mean, we've been going through like this exponential growth
• 1:30:50
  Speaker 1: period where she's she's been doing some work with gob
• 1:30:54
  Speaker 1: Ormati's philosophies, and I've been doing work with the men
• 1:30:59
  Speaker 1: and the I'm seeing all this stuff from childhood, and
• 1:31:02
  Speaker 1: she's seeing stuff from her childhood and things that we
• 1:31:05
  Speaker 1: hold in darkness and things that we hold in light
• 1:31:08
  Speaker 1: and all of that stuff. It's really just it. Let's
• 1:31:13
  Speaker 1: make it simple. How does it make you feel?
• 1:31:16
  Speaker 3: It's so good, And it reminds me like I want
• 1:31:20
  Speaker 3: to take accountability for the times that we've had discussions,
• 1:31:23
  Speaker 3: you know, in the past years, and I could tell
• 1:31:27
  Speaker 3: in retrospect that it's like I'm feeling that weight in
• 1:31:30
  Speaker 3: my body of some like trying to justify or defend
• 1:31:33
  Speaker 3: something like rationalized it. Oh no, this is this could
• 1:31:37
  Speaker 3: be high viar maybe like what if you squint and
• 1:31:39
  Speaker 3: look at it that way? And meanwhile, like why am
• 1:31:42
  Speaker 3: I even having the discussion, like is to try to
• 1:31:44
  Speaker 3: convince myself away from the thing that if I really
• 1:31:48
  Speaker 3: just sat and felt in my body, like the answer
• 1:31:51
  Speaker 3: is obvious, it is.
• 1:31:53
  Speaker 1: And we're not taught that though.
• 1:31:55
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and it really is that simple. And I'm not
• 1:31:57
  Speaker 3: trying to simplify the ability to be in the body
• 1:32:01
  Speaker 3: or feel it or be embodied as that has proven
• 1:32:04
  Speaker 3: to be one of my greatest challenges, but it really
• 1:32:07
  Speaker 3: is seemed to be the answer.
• 1:32:09
  Speaker 1: Well, I know that the difference in physical relationships transactional
• 1:32:14
  Speaker 1: relationships that I've had in my life helped me realize
• 1:32:17
  Speaker 1: who I wasn't and when I came into the realization
• 1:32:20
  Speaker 1: of what a true intimate relationship was. When Ray and
• 1:32:23
  Speaker 1: I came together, it helped me discover who I was. Well.
• 1:32:27
  Speaker 3: I think it's a beautiful segue maybe to get Lay's
• 1:32:31
  Speaker 3: input and perspective, because we've arrived at the part in
• 1:32:34
  Speaker 3: Scott's story where the kind of you know, beautiful love
• 1:32:39
  Speaker 3: story starts. And there's a podcast out there that I
• 1:32:43
  Speaker 3: encourage you guys to listen, Safe to Love, that has
• 1:32:45
  Speaker 3: more details on the specifics of their story. It's wonderful.
• 1:32:50
  Speaker 3: But Loray, I'm curious to know, just you know, from
• 1:32:53
  Speaker 3: your perspective, what do you feel like have been the
• 1:32:58
  Speaker 3: keys that have allowed how like you and Scott to
• 1:33:02
  Speaker 3: continue to grow and alchemize together into deeper and deeper
• 1:33:06
  Speaker 3: levels of connection.
• 1:33:09
  Speaker 2: It's hard to put just one thing, you know, I
• 1:33:13
  Speaker 2: feel you have to. You have to decide that you
• 1:33:19
  Speaker 2: both want to work on yourself, the self that you
• 1:33:23
  Speaker 2: bring to the relationship, and not place blame with either
• 1:33:28
  Speaker 2: one because it's so easy to just disregard any learning
• 1:33:34
  Speaker 2: because it doesn't belong to you. But you know, what
• 1:33:38
  Speaker 2: we have found is even if it's if it's me
• 1:33:42
  Speaker 2: struggling with the things I struggle with or Scott struggling
• 1:33:45
  Speaker 2: with whatever he's struggling with. The Only way for us
• 1:33:50
  Speaker 2: to truly move beyond it is for each of us,
• 1:33:54
  Speaker 2: as we do the work, the other one to be
• 1:33:57
  Speaker 2: a mirror for us or a witness, because otherwise we
• 1:34:03
  Speaker 2: could live by ourselves.
• 1:34:06
  Speaker 1: You know, it's hard to figure it out on your
• 1:34:08
  Speaker 1: own sometimes.
• 1:34:09
  Speaker 2: Right, And I live by myself for a very long time,
• 1:34:12
  Speaker 2: and you know that doubt will creep in. So you
• 1:34:17
  Speaker 2: marriage is a witnessing agreement that says I will witness
• 1:34:22
  Speaker 2: you and in the good times and the bad times,
• 1:34:27
  Speaker 2: and likewise you will witness me. And through that you
• 1:34:31
  Speaker 2: may ask questions that I don't dare ask myself. I
• 1:34:34
  Speaker 2: may ask you questions you don't dare ask yourself. But
• 1:34:37
  Speaker 2: we're going to come out on the other side in
• 1:34:40
  Speaker 2: a more unified way, learning from one another. It may
• 1:34:46
  Speaker 2: be things that I learned that aren't about struggles that
• 1:34:49
  Speaker 2: I would have, or vice versa for Scott, but there's
• 1:34:53
  Speaker 2: still an aspect of application there that maybe then, wow,
• 1:34:59
  Speaker 2: it may not be pornography for me, but it may
• 1:35:02
  Speaker 2: be something else for me, and it has similarities to
• 1:35:06
  Speaker 2: the way that I feel about myself. It may be food,
• 1:35:10
  Speaker 2: it may be shopping, it may be something that I
• 1:35:13
  Speaker 2: do in excess. And so if I can if I
• 1:35:19
  Speaker 2: can be honest enough and less judging and just be
• 1:35:22
  Speaker 2: a witness and be that mirror in our relationship, then
• 1:35:28
  Speaker 2: we start to hold together, you know, a plane of
• 1:35:32
  Speaker 2: existence that you cannot hold by yourself.
• 1:35:35
  Speaker 3: Wow, it's so beautiful to you tie it together to
• 1:35:38
  Speaker 3: all the things. Not about the thing, but it could
• 1:35:40
  Speaker 3: be any of these things. I think kind of the
• 1:35:43
  Speaker 3: last thing I want to hear from Larey is just
• 1:35:48
  Speaker 3: you've sat here as Scott has really bared his soul,
• 1:35:51
  Speaker 3: his history, talked about very vulnerably, with real emotions pouring
• 1:35:55
  Speaker 3: forth on his face, things that he used to hold
• 1:35:58
  Speaker 3: in tight shame and the kind of effects of that,
• 1:36:03
  Speaker 3: and then also where he's at today, Like, what has
• 1:36:05
  Speaker 3: your experience been like hearing Scott go through you know
• 1:36:10
  Speaker 3: each one of these things.
• 1:36:15
  Speaker 2: Well, you know, first for his experience, just the pain
• 1:36:22
  Speaker 2: of it, you know, the pain of choice that and
• 1:36:25
  Speaker 2: we all have pain of choice, but the fact that
• 1:36:31
  Speaker 2: he traveled it in order to now stand on the
• 1:36:35
  Speaker 2: other side and call to those that struggle with it
• 1:36:38
  Speaker 2: that it's safe to come come forward, and because you know,
• 1:36:44
  Speaker 2: I can get I can think about him at six
• 1:36:47
  Speaker 2: years old and be so caught up in the innocence
• 1:36:52
  Speaker 2: of a six year old. And you know, we have
• 1:36:54
  Speaker 2: plenty of six year olds in our lives today, and
• 1:36:57
  Speaker 2: we recently went to a birthday party for a really
• 1:37:01
  Speaker 2: beautiful little five year old in our lives, and I
• 1:37:06
  Speaker 2: can look at them and feel the ache in my
• 1:37:10
  Speaker 2: heart if that child were to experience what Scott did
• 1:37:14
  Speaker 2: at six, And so I can take it from them,
• 1:37:19
  Speaker 2: you know, from the macro to the micro and back
• 1:37:23
  Speaker 2: and forth, and just understand that the experience that he had,
• 1:37:28
  Speaker 2: he's been able to overcome it so that we can
• 1:37:33
  Speaker 2: understand it not only for his experience, but for the
• 1:37:37
  Speaker 2: experience that humanity needs to address, for the number of
• 1:37:43
  Speaker 2: children that experiences that, and how the wisdom that he
• 1:37:47
  Speaker 2: learned through his own experience where that should take us,
• 1:37:50
  Speaker 2: so that we have we can contribute to the wisdom
• 1:37:53
  Speaker 2: humanity needs for all of us to lift. And so
• 1:37:57
  Speaker 2: any of that, whether it's his six year olds, is
• 1:38:01
  Speaker 2: you know, forty something year old self coming to a
• 1:38:05
  Speaker 2: point where he ends a marriage and doesn't see his children.
• 1:38:11
  Speaker 2: For the children, you know what that means for them,
• 1:38:14
  Speaker 2: For his former wife what that means for her. You know,
• 1:38:16
  Speaker 2: there's plenty of heartache to go around and to just
• 1:38:23
  Speaker 2: hear all of that and try to hold it gently
• 1:38:25
  Speaker 2: in my hand and just have compassion for all of it.
• 1:38:29
  Speaker 2: And you know that isn't something that I would always
• 1:38:33
  Speaker 2: have said, because my mind is very active, and you
• 1:38:39
  Speaker 2: know there's aspects of our life coming together and expectations
• 1:38:43
  Speaker 2: that I had that created heartache for me. And you know,
• 1:38:49
  Speaker 2: so it's it continues to have a ripple effect where
• 1:38:54
  Speaker 2: it can it can become the thing that you stay
• 1:38:58
  Speaker 2: stuck and angry at, or it can just you can
• 1:39:02
  Speaker 2: just hold it gently in your hand and breathe a
• 1:39:05
  Speaker 2: little bit of life back into it and through the
• 1:39:08
  Speaker 2: compassion of your heart move somewhere that says we have
• 1:39:14
  Speaker 2: overcome this, and we step into wanting to be a
• 1:39:19
  Speaker 2: voice for those that find that in their lives.
• 1:39:22
  Speaker 1: Now.
• 1:39:23
  Speaker 3: Wow, and just powerful words, And just if I could
• 1:39:28
  Speaker 3: reflect just how inspiring it is to have, you know,
• 1:39:32
  Speaker 3: witnessed you holding Scott in support as he's moving through
• 1:39:37
  Speaker 3: this like obviously having created the same emotional safety even
• 1:39:41
  Speaker 3: deeper in an intimate relationship that allows in our men's containers,
• 1:39:46
  Speaker 3: men to come forward and talk about things that they
• 1:39:49
  Speaker 3: may not be able to talk about at home. Because
• 1:39:51
  Speaker 3: cards on the table, not every wife could sit there
• 1:39:55
  Speaker 3: and support as their husband shared as authentically and vulnerably
• 1:39:59
  Speaker 3: as Scott did it. I'm not saying that's right or wrong.
• 1:40:01
  Speaker 3: It's just a fact. And so that you've created the
• 1:40:05
  Speaker 3: emotional safety that he can be as open and vulnerable
• 1:40:09
  Speaker 3: with you is inspiring. And I see it happening in
• 1:40:12
  Speaker 3: the other direction as well.
• 1:40:14
  Speaker 1: Scott.
• 1:40:14
  Speaker 3: The safety and kind of strong foundation that you guys
• 1:40:18
  Speaker 3: have created in your relationship is inspiring. So I think
• 1:40:22
  Speaker 3: moving to wrap things up, I just wanted to know,
• 1:40:26
  Speaker 3: is there anything that you'd want to kind of put
• 1:40:29
  Speaker 3: out there to listeners, any advice that you'd have for them,
• 1:40:33
  Speaker 3: or anything that you're creating in your life that you
• 1:40:35
  Speaker 3: want people to know about, or kind of any other
• 1:40:38
  Speaker 3: final words from the both of you.
• 1:40:40
  Speaker 1: One thing I want to say is that you know
• 1:40:45
  Speaker 1: it is a vulnerable place for men to come out
• 1:40:49
  Speaker 1: and talk about this and speak about this and have
• 1:40:53
  Speaker 1: a recognition that they're not alone and whatever their struggles
• 1:40:56
  Speaker 1: are not just pornography wouldn't no matter what it is. Yeah,
• 1:40:59
  Speaker 1: for men to be able and have a safe space
• 1:41:02
  Speaker 1: to come and express and get support from other men,
• 1:41:06
  Speaker 1: it's important to have a partner like her in my life.
• 1:41:10
  Speaker 1: I feel super fortunate because Ray is one of those
• 1:41:15
  Speaker 1: lucky women in life that she didn't suffer sexual abuse
• 1:41:20
  Speaker 1: when she was young, and it brings forward in her
• 1:41:25
  Speaker 1: this it's an innocence, and it's a a purity, and
• 1:41:38
  Speaker 1: it's a love of just wanting to have the relationship
• 1:41:42
  Speaker 1: for the relationship in all of its aspects. There's not
• 1:41:46
  Speaker 1: anything in the background where when we're in our physical
• 1:41:53
  Speaker 1: part of our relationship that she has to heal from.
• 1:41:57
  Speaker 1: There's not trauma in her life that she needs to
• 1:41:59
  Speaker 1: heal in order for that relationship to be healed. And
• 1:42:02
  Speaker 1: for me as the man and having seen what I've
• 1:42:06
  Speaker 1: seen and have someone like this in my life, I
• 1:42:10
  Speaker 1: feel super fortunate. I feel super blessed to have her
• 1:42:16
  Speaker 1: hair because she is the ultimate mirror for me, because
• 1:42:23
  Speaker 1: you know, I'll start coming from my old paradigm a
• 1:42:27
  Speaker 1: little bit and she can see right through it immediately.
• 1:42:30
  Speaker 1: And what you just said about you know, not all
• 1:42:33
  Speaker 1: women would be able to sit and hear this. It's true,
• 1:42:38
  Speaker 1: but it's mostly because sexual abuse is so rampant in
• 1:42:43
  Speaker 1: our world. Yeah, and because sexual abuse is so rampant
• 1:42:47
  Speaker 1: in our world from the either side, from men or
• 1:42:50
  Speaker 1: women on children. That's not to put that into this
• 1:42:57
  Speaker 1: really shameful, nasty, dirty, ugly place, which is where the
• 1:43:01
  Speaker 1: world is trying to stuff it. Yeah, we got to
• 1:43:04
  Speaker 1: bring some light to this. How do you bring light
• 1:43:07
  Speaker 1: to something so dark? Well, it's in the healing of
• 1:43:11
  Speaker 1: those who've been through it, and the healings of those
• 1:43:14
  Speaker 1: who've been through it where they recognize that that's not them.
• 1:43:18
  Speaker 1: They can let go of the energy of the experience
• 1:43:21
  Speaker 1: and that they can have a different experience. Or you
• 1:43:24
  Speaker 1: don't have to stay stuck in your six year old self.
• 1:43:27
  Speaker 1: You can come out of it into the intimacy, the
• 1:43:31
  Speaker 1: partnership of true and intimate love in compassion with another
• 1:43:38
  Speaker 1: human being. You don't have to stay stuck in whatever
• 1:43:43
  Speaker 1: your experience was as a child. You were innocent, it's
• 1:43:47
  Speaker 1: not your fault. Allow yourself the heal move out of
• 1:43:53
  Speaker 1: that energy. It's low vibration, it's super low vibration. Each
• 1:44:00
  Speaker 1: of us hold that it takes work. I'm not going
• 1:44:03
  Speaker 1: to say you can just snap your fingers and just
• 1:44:05
  Speaker 1: say let it go. But there's lots of ways to heal.
• 1:44:09
  Speaker 1: Reach out to a group, reach out to others who've
• 1:44:14
  Speaker 1: been through it, go to support, go to men's groups,
• 1:44:17
  Speaker 1: go to women's groups, do plant, medicine, cold plunge, sauna,
• 1:44:24
  Speaker 1: all of the things, but just remember not to make
• 1:44:28
  Speaker 1: the thing the thing right. Use all the things. But
• 1:44:33
  Speaker 1: it's a way that we find community, find community. There
• 1:44:38
  Speaker 1: are communities that are healing. One last thing I want
• 1:44:42
  Speaker 1: to say about that is I was not creative until
• 1:44:48
  Speaker 1: I started to heal. So leaning into a way to
• 1:44:52
  Speaker 1: find your way to be creative doesn't matter what it is,
• 1:44:56
  Speaker 1: doesn't have to be art or music or anything like that.
• 1:45:00
  Speaker 1: Something creative where you're bringing something into the world of
• 1:45:03
  Speaker 1: form that doesn't exist yet. That is a significant thing
• 1:45:11
  Speaker 1: in healing you because you're you're using the If pornography
• 1:45:16
  Speaker 1: and sexuality is something you're struggling with, that energy is
• 1:45:20
  Speaker 1: stuck or distorted or something is wrong the way it's
• 1:45:24
  Speaker 1: being expressed. But the expression of art, art, and any
• 1:45:29
  Speaker 1: kind of creation of something from nothing is the same energy.
• 1:45:36
  Speaker 1: You're creating a human being from nothing. When you're in
• 1:45:40
  Speaker 1: an intimate relationship, when you have a baby, and when
• 1:45:44
  Speaker 1: you create a new song, that's the same energy. I
• 1:45:50
  Speaker 1: think we've got to figure that out. We can tap
• 1:45:54
  Speaker 1: into that energy in whatever way we want to in
• 1:45:56
  Speaker 1: our life. We can tap into that energy in the
• 1:45:59
  Speaker 1: intimate personal relationships with our partners, and we can tap
• 1:46:03
  Speaker 1: into that energy in our relationships with everyone, just in
• 1:46:08
  Speaker 1: the friendships that we have, the conversations that we have.
• 1:46:14
  Speaker 1: We got to find a way to come to it
• 1:46:16
  Speaker 1: from a place of love instead of fear. Fear is
• 1:46:21
  Speaker 1: not going to heal this. Holding it into place of
• 1:46:23
  Speaker 1: darkness is not going to heal this. Each of us,
• 1:46:26
  Speaker 1: individually have got to walk the path. We got to
• 1:46:30
  Speaker 1: have our own hero's journey, and we've got to walk
• 1:46:33
  Speaker 1: into the cave and we got to look at it
• 1:46:36
  Speaker 1: and realize that that's where the treasure of your life is.
• 1:46:39
  Speaker 1: It's why you're here. There doesn't exist light without shadow.
• 1:46:44
  Speaker 1: So whatever your shadow is, look at it, don't judge it.
• 1:46:49
  Speaker 1: It's okay, it's waiting to have a light shined on it,
• 1:46:54
  Speaker 1: but you're the only one that can do the shining.
• 1:46:59
  Speaker 3: I just want to say I got such chills when
• 1:47:01
  Speaker 3: you were talking about the real intimacy that you feel
• 1:47:06
  Speaker 3: into with the ray and the emotion that was pouring
• 1:47:11
  Speaker 3: out there really touched me.
• 1:47:15
  Speaker 1: Thank Steve. I kind of love her. Yeah, Steve, thank
• 1:47:18
  Speaker 1: you so much for this.
• 1:47:19
  Speaker 2: You know, it's gone longer than we typically do, but
• 1:47:24
  Speaker 2: I it is okay because as I've sat here and
• 1:47:28
  Speaker 2: I've listened, you know, and I've I've seen Scott create
• 1:47:34
  Speaker 2: many avenues for what he felt he has a message
• 1:47:40
  Speaker 2: to share, even starting a separate podcast, and you know,
• 1:47:48
  Speaker 2: it's I'm realizing it's only in a conversation that someone
• 1:47:52
  Speaker 2: like you could have turned the tables on and held
• 1:47:56
  Speaker 2: for him that this message has been able to be shared. Finally,
• 1:48:01
  Speaker 2: So thank you se Max for the role that you've
• 1:48:04
  Speaker 2: intentionally and innocently, probably to some degree played well. We
• 1:48:11
  Speaker 2: really honor the fact that you felt strongly about it
• 1:48:16
  Speaker 2: and continued to pursue it.
• 1:48:18
  Speaker 1: And thank you for all those conversations that we have
• 1:48:22
  Speaker 1: had that led to where it is, and so many
• 1:48:26
  Speaker 1: more that we will have that will continue to explore
• 1:48:29
  Speaker 1: this deeper and deeper and deeper, because you know, I'm
• 1:48:34
  Speaker 1: not here to heal porn addicts by myself. I'm here
• 1:48:39
  Speaker 1: to open up a space with you, with Cole, with Cody,
• 1:48:43
  Speaker 1: with any any man who wants to come an experiment
• 1:48:49
  Speaker 1: with what we're talking about. Find this for yourself, and
• 1:48:53
  Speaker 1: it doesn't have to be with us. There's lots of
• 1:48:55
  Speaker 1: resources out there. Just have the recognition that the things
• 1:49:00
  Speaker 1: that you're holding in darkness are not really dark. They
• 1:49:04
  Speaker 1: definitely might seem that way, and it's hard to say
• 1:49:06
  Speaker 1: that they're not when you're in the middle of them.
• 1:49:10
  Speaker 1: But they're the lessons, they're the teachers. It's what's going
• 1:49:12
  Speaker 1: to get you.
• 1:49:13
  Speaker 2: Where you need to be well, and it's the only
• 1:49:15
  Speaker 2: way to move beyond them, the only way to.
• 1:49:17
  Speaker 1: Move beyond them. The lesson will keep coming in different
• 1:49:20
  Speaker 1: forms until you decide to learn it. Wow, what do
• 1:49:29
  Speaker 1: you think, Steve.
• 1:49:31
  Speaker 3: I'm still basking and the appreciation of it just feels
• 1:49:34
  Speaker 3: like I've had so many amazing conversations with you over
• 1:49:38
  Speaker 3: the years, and so many nuggets from all of them,
• 1:49:40
  Speaker 3: and it's like, yeah, I think I just wanted to
• 1:49:43
  Speaker 3: gather a couple of them into one place, and it's
• 1:49:46
  Speaker 3: still bursting out the seams, and there's so many more
• 1:49:48
  Speaker 3: we haven't even covered better in my notes. But Wow,
• 1:49:52
  Speaker 3: I feel incredible. Thank you for sharing so authentically of yourself.
• 1:49:58
  Speaker 3: What an inspiration.
• 1:49:59
  Speaker 1: Thank you, Thank you for taking the time to be here,
• 1:50:02
  Speaker 1: Thanks for coming to the TP this morning. And I mean,
• 1:50:06
  Speaker 1: you've been a great mirror for me, and I look
• 1:50:11
  Speaker 1: forward to the additional mirrors that we're going to be
• 1:50:14
  Speaker 1: for each other and the people that are going to
• 1:50:16
  Speaker 1: join that and see that and experience that. Absolutely cool.
• 1:50:21
  Speaker 1: Anything else, honey, No, I just.
• 1:50:23
  Speaker 2: Really honor you for your authenticity and your vulnerability, and
• 1:50:28
  Speaker 2: I'm just I'm just really happy that this is a
• 1:50:32
  Speaker 2: message that you've been able to share.
• 1:50:35
  Speaker 1: Thank you. I truly appreciate it. And now I know
• 1:50:39
  Speaker 1: that this afternoon, I'm gonna go, I'm going to turn
• 1:50:42
  Speaker 1: this off. I'm gonna give you the little chip to
• 1:50:45
  Speaker 1: send an eight, and then I'm gonna go, why the
• 1:50:48
  Speaker 1: hell did I say that? Why the hell did I
• 1:50:51
  Speaker 1: say that? But I want everyone to know that I
• 1:50:55
  Speaker 1: said what was in my heart and I just let
• 1:50:58
  Speaker 1: it flow. And if any of it may have triggered
• 1:51:03
  Speaker 1: you or caused you some pain, or caused you maybe
• 1:51:07
  Speaker 1: to judge, I want to apologize for that. I'm just
• 1:51:11
  Speaker 1: trying to share a story of my own that I
• 1:51:14
  Speaker 1: feel is important to be shared. I've felt this way
• 1:51:17
  Speaker 1: for a long time, but my voice really I haven't
• 1:51:21
  Speaker 1: had the words to express it. But with help from
• 1:51:24
  Speaker 1: my beautiful wife Ray and from good friends like you, Steve,
• 1:51:29
  Speaker 1: it's helped me to find words and find ways to
• 1:51:33
  Speaker 1: share it that I think are less in your face,
• 1:51:36
  Speaker 1: that are easier to to conceptualize and actually take action
• 1:51:41
  Speaker 1: on and implying your life. So I appreciate you guys
• 1:51:45
  Speaker 1: both for that. All right, all right, okay, so I
• 1:51:50
  Speaker 1: guess here we go until next time. Bye. If you're
• 1:51:56
  Speaker 1: enjoying the Observatory Podcast, please consider subscribing, sharing us, and
• 1:52:01
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• 1:52:03
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• 1:52:09
  Speaker 1: the word out and get this information out to more
• 1:52:11
  Speaker 1: and more people so that it can be shared and
• 1:52:14
  Speaker 1: we can help ripple out this energy that's emanating in
• 1:52:18
  Speaker 1: the world today. There's been so much separation and we
• 1:52:21
  Speaker 1: want to find a way to create conversations where we
• 1:52:24
  Speaker 1: can come together, not divide so much as we have
• 1:52:28
  Speaker 1: been to learn to come together in unity. Thank you.
• 1:52:35
  Speaker 2: You've been listening to the Observatory Podcast.
• 1:52:38
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• 1:52:42
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