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The Walt Harris Debacle · Pittsburgh Sports Memories

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: Hi everybody, welcome to the Pittsburgh Sports Memories Podcast.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Tim Hannon.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm Steve Wirt.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_01: And as always, we're going to take a look back at some event in Pittsburgh Sports History and deep dive into it.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_00: Alright, today we're gonna go into the 2004 Pitt Football Season.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_00: It was a uh rather controversial one, and um it definitely had uh a lot of twists and turns and um very eventful for the pit football program in general.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um so to begin, um to give you a little background on what was going on that time in pit football.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_00: In 2003, we're still in the midst of the Big East.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's uh teams are leaving, like Miami and Virginia Tech, and BC is um Boston College is on its way out at the end of the season.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: They played a couple of uh lame duck years in the uh Big East there before moving on to the ACC, but Miami and Virginia Tech had already left that year.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_00: So um basically at that uh it's the teams that are leaving versus the teams that are staying, which would be Boston College.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um at the end of the 2003 season, Pitt loses in embarrassing fashion to Miami in what they called the Big East Championship game.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_00: Uh that loss cost uh Larry Fitzgerald as a Heisman, a shot at the Heisman, who was a Jason White from Oklahoma one, even though he was playing nobody, and Larry Fitzgerald was playing against Sound Taylor and Andrell Roll.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_00: So that was probably uh the competition was a little bit more stiff for uh Larry Fitzgerald than Jason White.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_00: Also, uh what happened was a longtime athletic director Steve Peterson, the person that had brought Pitt back, Pitt football, especially back from the um brink of probably you know going away.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_00: He brought them back to at least respectability.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_00: He had left the season before, and he was the uh person that had hired Walt Harris.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_00: So he had a vested interest in keeping Walt Harris there since he was his coach.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um so after that, uh they I think they still had an eight-win season that year.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_00: For some reason, the expectations were raised, and that's increased pressure on uh Walt Harris for the 2004 season.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_00: Unfortunately for Walt Harris, his uh quarterback, uh Rod Rutherford, had uh graduated.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_00: He had been a solid starter for year for years for Pitt, and Larry Fitzgerald, seeing that Rod Rutherford, his quarterback, was leaving and that um they were gonna have to break in a new quarterback, uh either Pauco or some guy named Joe Flacco, uh decided that he was going to go to the NFL, which was a little controversial because he only been in school two years, but the rule at the time, I think it's still the rule, is three years out of high school.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_00: So he kind of got an exception because he was three years out of high school, even though he had only played two years of college.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_00: So Larry Fitzgerald leaves, Rod Rutherford leaves, and as usual, the media who had voted against Larry Fitzgerald and sabotage his Heisman career for no apparent reason.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um Bob Smyzik wrote that uh wrote this in the paper regarding Pitts uh upcoming season in 2004.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_00: It's with an eye toward that record in Harris's failure to win the important games and get the Panthers to a major bowl appearances that raise is the subject of job security.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_00: And that was Bob Smyzac from the season preview.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_00: So I mean, as a lot of times it happens in the city, for some reason the um I don't know why the media feels need to like take shots at Pitt.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_00: They don't tend to do that with Penn State or West Virginia, I don't think.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_00: And they I don't not sure why that there's more of a contentious relationship in the media towards the university, but that's uh that's how it is.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_01: So so yeah, and and to be fair, I guess, if if we're gonna try to look at it from that perspective, the that O three season was a disappointment.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_01: Like they were the number eight team in the country at one point in that season.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_01: They lost to Toledo.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_01: In Toledo, yeah, it was pretty.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_01: They lost uh a home game to Notre Dame.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_01: And then even after all that, it was a very up and down season, but they still had a chance to win the conference at home against Miami.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, like you said, they just got destroyed in that game.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_01: And uh and they ended up playing, I forget the bowl game they played in, but it was against Virginia.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and Heath Miller.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_01: Heath Miller torched them for for that whole game.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_01: It was it was just it that season was supposed to be the culmination of you know, Walt Harris had been just slowly building the program.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_01: And then in Larry Fitzgerald, he had arguably the most talented player in the history of the program, and probably next to Tony Dwarcette.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_00: Or Barino, yeah.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_01: Or Marino.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_00: And probably one of the more talented players in the country, too, outside of Sean Taylor and Miami.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_00: Well, he should have won the Heisman, absolutely.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_00: But Well, they voted uh Smyzik and uh Cook voted against them.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_00: How can you win the Heisman when your own like media people wouldn't even support you?
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't I don't understand that.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_01: I think I think the Heisman, you're not gonna give it to Oklahoma had um, you know, was playing for the their conference championship, and they were one of the best teams.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_01: I don't I just I don't think they were ever gonna give the Heisman to a mediocre team.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_01: I think if if Pitt goes out and beats Miami, wins a conference, gets an OBCS bowl, even if Fitzgerald would have had a so-so game, I think he gets the Heisman.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_01: You also almost never give that w a word to the receivers.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I I think Tim Brown was the only other guy that played Heisman.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's a quarterback, right?
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's a quarterback, you know.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_01: Uh uh Tim Brown and uh uh Charles Woodson.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_01: Those are like the only two guys I can remember that were.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_00: That weren't quarterbacks or running backs.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_01: So so but I I think yeah.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_01: Well, is it fair to question that Walt Harris job was in danger?
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_01: But I do know that in in 2003 they fell way short of the expectations that they should have had.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and that kind of set up the 2004 putting pressure on him.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I also like that kind of turned me on, like I think Mario Lemieux once said, you know, the only award he ever cared about was the scoring, whatever the the heart, is that the heart they give away for a scoring goal?
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_00: The art ros.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_01: Because nobody votes on it.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm with him.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_00: Like, that's why I don't care.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_00: Like MVP Lamar Jackson, who cares?
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_00: Good congratulations.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_00: It's awesome, game.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_00: Here you go, Miss America.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_00: Answer our question.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I'm it it you know, at least the Vesna in hockey, they just go stats anymore.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_00: It's like who is the best save percentage?
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_00: But be that as it may, the Heisman Trophy did not go to Larry Fitzgerald.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_00: So on to 2004, and so coming into that season now they have Tyler Palco.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_00: He had redshirted that year.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_00: He became the starter in 2004, but he's not a proven starter yet.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_00: So, but he is a highly regarded recruit, and mainly his father, Bob, co is a high school coach at West Allegheny.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_00: So he's a local kid, highly recruited.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_00: And that, you know, in college football, especially, that has a lot of sway because you always want to try and keep, you know, the local talent in-house and local.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_00: You don't want them leaving.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_01: Especially when you're in Pitt.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_00: Well, any team.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, if Rutgers could keep all the talent in New Jersey, they would probably have won like three national champions.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_00: You look you just look at the people that come out of New Jersey, and even Pitt's done well in New Jersey.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, there's a lot of high school football talent that comes out of New Jersey, which brings us the next person, Joe Flacco, who is the backup quarterback and is from New Jersey.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_00: Once again, if Rutgers could have somehow made him stay, you know, they probably would have a better uh team, but uh he his co his dad isn't a local coach, he's not highly recruited, but he um did read red shirt in 2003 and is facing another year as a backup.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_00: I do remember him playing in a spring game that year, and he looked like he weighed like 120 pounds, but he could throw a ball through like a brick wall, he had a really strong arm.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_00: And he wasn't afraid, I remember he wasn't afraid to put his head down and try and run people over, even though he like more bounced off.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_00: But uh yeah, I I didn't know, you know, didn't know, didn't think Joe Flaggo would be a first-round draft pick, no, but I mean he did look like he had some potential there.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_00: And uh I also remember before that season that uh Walt Harris had uh was talking about one of their opponents, how they had won eight games the year before, and their coach had gotten fired that same year, and Walt couldn't understand how that happened to a successful coach.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_00: So uh kind of a little foreshadowing there, himself there, Walt Harris.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_00: So we're gonna um begin the season.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_00: The first game they play is they play against a um Mac opponent, Ohio University.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_00: And this is back um well, I guess they weren't, they lost to Toledo, but I think that was the first time.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_00: Was that the first time they had lost to a Mac team that year before, yeah.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_00: Because they had never lost to a Mac team.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_00: So for most of most of the time, Pitt had beaten Mac teams pretty easily, and that was kind of the way that went.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_00: So it really wasn't much of a game.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_00: It's just kind of one of those tune-ups they won 24-3.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_00: So the next week is the big test.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_00: It's Nebraska comes to town, they're a solid opponent, and it's the first test of the season.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um Tyler Palco threw two interceptions early in the game, but um they did bounce back and they played a lot better in the second half, and they did come up just short.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_00: Pitt lost 17 to 24.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_00: But um Palco had a much better showing in the second half.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think the Flacco Flacco did get in for a series, but I don't think they let him throw a pass.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_00: So I mean Flacco kind of got in but didn't really do anything.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_01: Well, the reason Flacco, so I I was at that game, it it was a weird weekend because it was that Friday was uh for the for folks that live in Pittsburgh might remember this uh Hurricane Ivan had happened and there was all this flash flooding that took place in Pittsburgh.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_01: There were parts of the city underwater that I remember that, yeah.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_00: That were not like the front steps of Heinz Field, like they couldn't bring the boat, like they used to bring the boat over.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_01: They talked about they talked about canceling that game because of all the floods, and they decided to play it because it was a big it was on ESPN, ESPN I think guys, like the college football guys were there and everything.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_01: It was a big deal.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_01: And uh and and and like you said, Palco really was bad, and everybody was just booing Palco when he'd walk off the field.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, what Harris put Flacco in.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I think I think he I think he did let him I think it was mostly handoffs.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_01: I think he did run a passing play, but like he he didn't throw the ball.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_01: I think he scrambled and ran out of bounds or something like that, or maybe even got sacked.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_01: I I don't remember, but it was very short-lived.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_01: And like you said, when they brought Palco back in, then that kind of woke him up.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_01: And then I don't think we saw Flacco the rest of the season.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, because I remember Harris said that too after the game, that he thought sometimes with a younger player sitting them down helps them just especially after they've been struggling, just to see the game for the sideline.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_00: It kind of slowed the game down.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_00: And um it kind of like the comeback thing, like that's like another like thing that happens in this season, is that's kind of like the theme of the season for this team.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_00: This is and it's why it's one of my favorite.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_00: I love this team.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_00: And they just no matter what happened, they were always game.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_00: They just always see this through the season.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_00: They were always it was always they're always behind the eight ball, always seemed to have like everything going against them, but for the most part, they fought through and they had a fair amount of success.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_00: So the next week, and I remember going to this game, I was at the Nebraska game also, but I was at this game, and this is this was kind of a low point ever at Pitt for me, because like so Division I AA powerhouse Furman comes, which Furman is the only non-state school to win a FCS title.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_00: There's your fun factoid about Furman.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_00: They're just a private school from South Carolina, and they've had a lot of success at that level, but they're not at Pitt's level.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_00: So Pitt finds they're down 17 points to in the second half.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_00: And the the worst part was was in the first quarter, both of Furman's safeties got hurt.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_00: So, like, not only could Pitt not score, they couldn't score on backups on a FCS.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_00: Like, they're backups now.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_00: You can't even say they're starters.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_00: And the quarterback for Furman was this guy named Engle Martin, who was who played at Florida.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_00: And he got Urban Meyer chased him out of there for who was the other they won a national championship.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_00: It wasn't Tebo, the guy before Tebow.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, that that guy.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_00: But he played a well, played well.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_00: But the Pitts credit, once again, this team, they put it together because like I really thought they were gonna lose the Division I AA team.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_00: I really did.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_00: But they put it together, and in the second half, they were able to tie the game and send it to overtime.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_00: And this is back when like nobody could kick a field goal in in Heinz Field.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_00: So the goofball coach for Furman decides he's gonna try an overtime.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_00: Like, they don't get any yards.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_00: He's gonna try like a 30-yard field goal with his Division I double-A kicker in the open end of Heinz Field.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_00: Well, gee, I wonder if he's going to miss it.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_00: So the guy misses the field goal.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_00: It really wasn't his fault.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's probably an impossible task.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_00: But uh Josh Cummings, who hit hits a big field goal later and they they win the game and they avoid total the season being a total disaster.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_00: A loss to Nebraska isn't the end of the world, this would have probably killed their season for sure.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_01: It certainly would have it certainly would have been a huge, massive step backwards to lose to a Division I double A team.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_01: Hey Steve, just going back to that Nebraska game for one second, the the fun fun fact about that weekend that so Go Flacco gets into the game, but then never gets into the game again, and that sort of sets a little bit of a path forward for him.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sure we'll talk about that later.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_01: The next day, so that's happening in Pittsburgh.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_01: The next day in Baltimore is when Tommy Maddox got hurt and Ben came in.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_01: And Ben became the starter ever since.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_01: So it's just funny, Pittsburgh, Baltimore, a lot of a lot of things happening that weekend that sort of set the future of both of those franchises in motion were happening in different places.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_00: Well, um, so the next game was uh Pitt went to um Yukon to wherever Yukon plays their football games, stores stores and probably in Connecticut.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_00: Well, in Connecticut, but I don't know if it's stores or not.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_00: Rench wherever Rentler Field is.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_00: But on another like school that had just moved up from Division I, I mean, they weren't really an established football power.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_00: They had uh Dan Orlosky was their quarterback.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_00: So and some guy named Cornell Brockington was their running back.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_00: And um what kind of like sealed-I this is probably like the first big like problem Walt Harris made for himself.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_00: This is like the first like little shovel foot of dirt Harris put in his own grave here on top of himself was late and a half, and I think they were down, and instead of like being aggressive and throwing a pass in the end zone, and Cummings had been a good kicker, he calls for to Tyler Paco to run to the middle of the field and slide to set up a field goal on like uh a makeable third down, and that just that really got him a lot of criticism.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_00: And then in the second half, they couldn't really stop the uh running game of Yukon and that Pitt fell 29 to 17.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_01: And that was I can tell you for me, and I'd been a Walt Harris fan for years, because he really like you said, he the program was just absolute garbage before he came.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_01: That that one was tough because you just thought like this is this is Pitts this is the ceiling for Walt Harris.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_01: Like if he can't go for a touchdown here, like he he it was third and goal, and he just sets up a field goal with a like a s like they don't even try.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, and it wasn't like it was like third and twenty-three, I think it was like third and ten or third and twelve.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_00: I don't remember what your lightem was.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_00: But it wasn't like super impossible.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_00: It wasn't impossible.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_01: And and like you could throw even if you threw a short pass or heck, even if you handed off up the middle and it was a kind of a a fake or conservative play, but he literally didn't even try.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_01: He just had Poco slide and give up.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_01: And it just, yeah, it just for me, I I didn't like, I don't know if I can I don't know if this guy's ever gonna get past where he is.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_01: It was definitely a tough moment.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_00: Trevor Burrus, and I mean I guess even if they scored there, what would have been four more points?
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_00: So the window.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_00: 29-21.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_00: Sure, but it was just it was just the unstoppable, you know, Dan Orlovsky, give him the Heisman now.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_00: You know.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, they had bigger problems than that.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_01: But again, it's like when you can't when you're being overmatched and you're losing and you don't even try, it it just I don't know.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_01: It says a lot about who you are as a coach.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so after that first little like faux paw, he kind of like the rumor, the media is really on him, and it's my you know is already criticizing before the season has even started, and like all the fans are on him, and this is this is still in the days before the internet, so I can't imagine what it would have been like now.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it wasn't Facebook or web pages and stuff, not like there is.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_00: And so Walt Harris in his all his wisdom decides through his agent, he criticizes the university in a in the paper, in the Post Gazette.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_00: And the quote was, Pitt is not a major power.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_00: It is not one of the 20 jobs in the country.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_00: And uh to me that's that's the point in when the whole season kind of pivoted for at least for Walt Harris.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_00: And he wasn't gonna be the coach of Pitt anymore, probably after that, because it just you can't keep a person that's that's I think the athletic director was Jeff Long.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_00: So Jeff Long had no loyalty to keep Steve Peterson.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_00: Uh-huh.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_00: So I mean to keep Walt Harris, I mean.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_00: And they just he did it to himself.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_00: He really did.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, and you can say, well, that's his his agent, but his agent wouldn't say that if Walt Harris didn't tell him to say that.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_00: That's always been my contention.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_00: So they just he kind of really gave himself strike two there, if not strike three, with especially with the administration at the university, and that's the people you really have to keep happy.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it was it was an odd statement for his agent to make.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_01: And like you said, it just it was almost like you're right.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_01: That was the moment where you you just said, okay, this is done, this is over.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_01: And at the time, they were what, I guess, one and or they were two and two, but they they had to take Furman to overtime.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_01: So they weren't, you know, you're you're thinking it's a lost season anyway, and this is just gonna end badly.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_01: And then of course things start to turn around.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and it's kind of one of those that and that's why, like I said, I like this team is because I don't know if the players played for Walt Harris or played in spite of Walt Harris, or maybe that's why, you know, you can't just Tyler Pauco, for better or worse, is is a leader.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I don't know who in that walker room somebody was able to rally the team around them, and the team just rallied in spite of all this.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_00: Like next week they go to Temple, and Temple always, for some reason back then, Temple always gave Pitt a game.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_00: And they played behind most of the game as usual, but they ended up rallying in the fourth quarter and winning 27 to 22.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_00: So they win a game, they should win.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_00: And it was in Temple, and you know, it and they won in spite of all the negative comments that you know their coach had made.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_00: And so now the next week, I remember this.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_00: I went to this game, and this was at Hinesfield, and they played Boston College, and Boston College was ranked.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I think Boston College might have even been picked to win the Big East that year.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_00: So I figured Kiwanuka was their big defensive player.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_00: I just remember thinking there's no way Pitt's gonna beat this team.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_00: This pit team just isn't that good.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_00: But against all odds, like the big play early in that game was um they ran a flea flicker and nobody was open.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_00: So Tyler Pauco runs the ball, and as the the guy, the safety from Boston College comes up to tackle him, Tyler Parker literally runs him over and knocks the Boston College guy's helmet off.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_00: And it was just what you could see if you see the bench, if you watch it on YouTube, like the bench just goes crazy.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and it's just like like I said, like the team just all of a sudden just you can see they're just rallying around each other.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_00: And in spite of all the you know, bad stuff going on, they're kind of blocking it out.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, another great play was um there was a fourth down deep in Pitt's end.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_00: Boston College had the ball, and they they threw past their wide receiver, and Darrell Reevas probably made like the most unreal tackle.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I just remember him wrestling this guy at the one-yard line to keep him out of the and that was Reeves was a freshman too.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_00: It was, yeah, that was that was a lot of fun.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_00: And uh the game went to overtime.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_00: Pitt kicked a field goal, and then on the next Boston College possession, they uh were able to strip the running back and they they recovered the fumble to win the game, and it was a very improbable victory, and it was just a very satisfying one, especially because it was going to be embarrassing, like losing to Boston College on their way out the door to the ACC.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_00: So Pitt was uh that was a great feeling and a good win.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_00: Next uh week they went to um Rutgers comes to town from New Jersey.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_00: They blew them out 17 to 44.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_00: I guess that's Rutgers.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_00: They stink.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_00: Especially that year.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_00: And uh this this is the game that probably cost them.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_00: Next week they went to Syracuse.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_00: I remember this one more than I don't remember the Rutgers one, but I remember this one.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_00: The um they lost in the carrier dome.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_00: That was back when no, they had won a few in the carrier dome, but Josh Cummings missed a late field goal in that.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_00: And they that if they would have won that game, they would have been on track to win the Big East outright.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_00: And that definitely would have helped their case.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_00: It wouldn't have looked as bad at the end of the year.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um the defense gave up 38 points that Paul Pascoloni option offense that they always had trouble with.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, they were like the navy of the Big East.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_00: So I mean it that was that was a tough one.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_00: But we always lose to Syracuse and the Domes.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_00: I I guess I guess.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_00: Well they they don't have any plans on replacing it, apparently.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_00: But I could we could do a whole podcast of just bad stuff that's happening.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_01: In multiple sports, but especially in football in that in that building.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and and names like David Tyree and Tori Nunes, and and yeah, it just so so many just bad losses that were.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_00: Well they didn't win there for 30 years from like Merino until like I think two years before this.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_00: They hadn't surprised.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_00: They hadn't won in the carrier dome in football.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_00: So, but unfortunately that was a tough one.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_00: If they would have won that, they definitely would have been better shaped.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_00: It cost them an outright shot at the Big East Championship, so that was a tough loss.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_00: So the next week they go to Notre Dame, and Notre Dame is ranked 24th.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_00: It's probably one of the bigger games of their season outside of Boston College, and it's in Notre Dame.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_00: Uh Pitt had lost to the Irish in their last three meetings.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_00: And um, this is the game that probably I would say solidified Tyler Palco as a quarterback.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_00: And you you know, you can argue between Palco and Flacco, but uh after this game, like he was definitely the unquestioned quarterback of of the of the Pitt team because he went into Notre Dame and threw five touchdowns and had an unbelievable great game.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_00: And then Josh Cummings made up for his misses lat in the game against um Syracuse and hit a late field goal to win it.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, leading to the memorable post post uh game quote that uh Tyler Palco was really proud of this effing team, which led the great t-shirts at the at the stadium the the next home game.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_00: But uh that's Tyler Pauco for you.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_00: Tom Hammond clutched his pearls and was not his feigning cow child, I guess.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_01: He wasn't that was live on NBC.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_01: NBC was already disgusted because that last drive the thing that set up the Cummings field goal was um you might remember the name of the tight end.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_01: But they threw it they threw a short pass to our tight end.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_00: And he just like broke a bunch of tackles.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_01: Notre Dame just kept falling off of them and he got like a 35-yard gain.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_01: That's what set up the game-winning field goal.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_01: So so I mean, it it's a it's NBC Notre Dame's their home team, so they're already disgusted that Pitt won, and then you know, they stick a microphone in Pauco's face and he drops an F-bomb.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_01: And and what I remember about the you know, Tom Hammond said, you know, oh, we you know, we apologize for that, and uh what a shame that he had to mar such a a good day uh with that you know disgusting moment.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_01: And and as he was saying this, they were cutting the shots of Brady Quinn, who was the Notre Dame quarterback, you know, walking humbly off the field.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_01: Like there's a there's a kid that won't swear on national TV, Brady Quinn.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_01: So it it just you know it it just made you more, like you said, more of a Tyler Pauco fan at that point because he not only went into Notre Dame and threw five touchdowns, but he does he just you know upset everybody, the whole network, everything.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_00: Well, uh like I said, that was just this team that year.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_00: They just no matter, you know, going to Notre Dame and winning.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_00: Notre Dame wasn't a bad team.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_00: They were a pretty decent team that year.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, they just really had no business winning that game.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_00: But they they pulled it out.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_00: You gotta and did it their way.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_00: Well, the next game, um, they played another ranked opponent.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_00: It was uh West Virginia at home.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_00: And it was uh the closely contested game.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_00: And uh Tyler Palko, I mean, another, you know, you can see why now, like, you know, sometimes you forget, you know, why Tyler Palko was the quarterback.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, he was a pretty good quarterback in college.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_00: The pros, yeah, it didn't work out for him, but in college he really did because in that drive he hurdled uh Pac-Man Jones and picked up a first down, and they were able to um score the uh uh touchdown to seal the win for that.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_00: And this win was huge because it put them in the um position to earn a share of the big East title now.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_01: That's that game was on Thanksgiving night.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_00: I remember it was a night, yeah.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember him jumping over like I remember it was like tightly contested too.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_01: It was a it was a very closely It was very close, it was a tough game.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_01: And what I remember about it, because I was there, it was the coldest I've ever been in my life.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_01: It was it was so cold.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_01: And um my cousin came with us, she ended up getting frostplate.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_01: Like it it literally was Was it that?
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_01: I don't remember Yeah, it was it was freezing.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_01: I I remember going into the bigger.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_00: There are other games I remember being cold.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_00: I remember there was another West Virginia game that was really cold where Larry Fitzgerald dropped a pass in the end zone, but that was like 2001.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah that was cold.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_00: I I I don't remember that game being that cold.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_01: I I remember going into the bathroom to try to warm up because I was just so cold.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_01: I remember standing in the middle of the Heinz Field restroom.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_01: Uh but it was a great, like you said, it was a great win.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_01: And like and and I, you know, I I I know I never normally don't like when a guy like like Palko was that guy that liked John Madden or like John Gruden, like those kinds of guys were like, he's a gamer, he's tough, he's a gamer.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_01: But that's really what he was.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_01: He was he wasn't super talented per se, but he just was a gamer and he would find ways to win.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_00: He had a pretty accurate arm and he could read a defense, he was smart enough to read a defense.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_00: And in Walt Harris's offense, that complimented Walt Harris's offense very well.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_00: So and and now this is kind of anecdotal, but I Mark Ponko used to play safety way back in the and I I've heard this from more than just Mark Ponko, but they they they add that Walt Harris is a complete jerk.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_00: I've I've heard that.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_00: I I've heard that.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_00: Like to his players, you mean?
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_00: So I mean, like I said, maybe this team just rallied around Tyler Palko and each other and won in spite.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_00: Well, the on the onward and upward, they went to Florida the next week, and that was uh South Florida, and they beat them in Tampa by 43-14th.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_00: I remember Walt Harris looked ridiculous in a sombrero as they carried him off the field.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_00: But um, the fun part of that was it clinched like a three-way tie for the Big East.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember watching, I think it was at a wedding, I was watching a game between Boston College and Syracuse.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_00: And Syracuse had the win to give Pitt the BCS ranking, and Syracuse went into Boston College and won.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like sitting there rooting for Syracuse for the first time ever in my life.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_00: So that was fun while it lasted.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_00: So 2004, the season's over, and um or no, BC beat Syracuse.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, Boston College had to beat Syracuse.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_00: There you go, I had it backwards.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_00: So Pitt has the higher standings in the BCS poll.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um most people on the national level didn't consider Pitt worthy of a BCS selection, maybe because they wanted whatever team, like, you know, I don't know what Ohio State was doing, but I'm sure that's what Herb Street was, whatever wherever Ohio State was, I'm sure.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's just everybody has their own little teams they root for and on a national level.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_01: Well, a lot of people didn't really even like the fact that the Big East still had that BCS spot without Miami, without Virginia Tech, and without soon to be without Boston College.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_01: I mean the teams the the schools that they replaced them with, like you said, Connecticut, Cincinnati, South Florida, were not really historically big time football schools.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_01: And so for for someone to win the Big East, you know, to the national to the national audience, it was kind of like okay.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think too, the way they won, like if they if they would have beat Syracuse and won it outright, I think I don't think it would have been as bad.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, they they did not they weren't, you know.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_01: A few years later, Cincinnati won the conference undefeated.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_01: And a lot of people still said, well, that's a weak conference, but at least they were like undefeated.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_01: Undefeated, yeah.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_01: Pitt Pitt was Pitt had, you know, sort of muddled their way through the season and got hot at the end.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_01: And so um but nevertheless, yeah.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, they they end up in uh they had finally, you know, Bob Smith said in the beginning, they need to play in a big bowl game.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you know, uh Walt Harris accomplishes that.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_00: They finally get their New Year's Day bowl.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_00: It's the Fiesta Bowl, it's against Utah, who has Alex Smith at quarterback and Urban Meyer at uh coach as coach.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so I mean unfortunately for Pitt, uh Pitt probably wasn't just up to that challenge.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_00: It was a 35-7 game.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um it wasn't that close.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_00: He tried he Urban Meyer tried to run it up.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_00: I remember that, but they they were at least good enough to not let him do.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, although 30 some points isn't exactly close.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_00: But I mean it's just I think they had a successful season and two like before that they had already canned Walt Harris.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_00: The the uh administration had fired Walt, so they kind of had like no coach really, but then they let Walt Harris coach.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_00: It was a weird situation, they let Walt Harris coach the Fiesta Bowl, which is just odd.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe it's not as odd now because so many coaches change nowadays, but back then I remember thinking it was kind of weird.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_01: He was he was lame, a lame duck coach.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, there's a lot of question over you know, was he fired?
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_01: Did he resign?
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I think what was the public story at least?
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_00: Well, the the the public the public for consumption, the way they saved face was Harris resigned as their coach and he got a job at Stanford and was hired by um Bill Walsh, who was the athletic director at that time in Stanford.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_00: And Walsh said some negative things about Pitt too to I think help cover for Harris.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_00: So the university was able to say, oh see, he left for another university, and then they went out and they actually had hired Dave Wonstadt.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_00: But they decided that I guess Walt Harris had earned this New Year's Day bowl and to kind of give him that as his uh going-away severance pay thing, just to, you know, give one last chance at uh coaching and um move on, move on to Stanford.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_00: And it it was kind of uh the end of the season, like that last game was was a shame.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_00: Really the highlight the high point was probably beating Notre Dame, five touchdowns and beating West Virginia.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_00: That was really the high point of their season.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, this this bowl game, even if they would have won it, it wouldn't have mattered.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_00: Like Pitt was in that typical, like, kind of like when you're a middle of the road school, like if you lose to Utah, it's like, well, what are you doing losing to Utah?
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_00: But then if you beat Utah, it's like, well, you should have beat them anyway.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_00: So they were in a no-win situation and they didn't win.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_01: It was strange though, after the season after Larry Fitzgerald's got, you know, as a Heisman candidate, and they're playing Miami for the conference, you know, that's and they were ranked number eight in the country at one point.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_01: That's the year that's not the year that they're playing in the festival.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that it's this year.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_01: But next year, when Fitzgerald's gone, they they almost lose to Furman.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_01: They're there are they're uh a team and a a week conference and a weak team, and that's the year that they are in the festival.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_01: It was just really a crazy It was a crazy end of the year.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_00: It it was it was just weird that they were they're in and I mean the reason you know Walt Harris had to leave was he couldn't get big name recruits and then putting those negative comments in the paper it just poisoned the you well.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_00: He never had a great relationship with the local um high school coaches.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_00: So that hurt his reputation too.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_00: He just wasn't able to you know recruit and keep people here like we'd said earlier.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_00: And um it was a shame because he had a si he had his most successful season and he got got fired pretty much.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I st I still assume he just got fired.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_00: He just they just they just said, why don't you go find another job?
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean uh or maybe he just wanted to find another job you know per his agents' comments.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_01: Something had soured.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_01: Like it wasn't like Walt Harris, like, oh please, I want to coach this team so badly.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, something had soured there either on his side, their side, or both, probably both.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_01: And we'll never probably know the full story behind that.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and kind of the background too, like uh at that time um Ben Holland, who had rebuilt the basketball program, they offered him a ton of money.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_00: And remember, they had a big buyout.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_00: And UCLA, or uh I forgot one of the big shoe manufacturer guys came in and just was like, yeah, how much is that and wrote like a check like it was nothing.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but they couldn't get Ben Holland to stay.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that kind of like, okay, we want somebody that wants to be here.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_00: It's kind of was kind of was the attitude when they hired somebody, and that's why they kind of went with one staff.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_01: Well, because that was destined to happen.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_01: If you if you're gonna hire because look at the team they played in the Fiesta Bowl, you know, Utah, what happened to Urban Meyer?
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_01: He went to Florida.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_01: He goes to Florida.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_01: And that was that was happening all the time at schools in bas with basketball and football.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_01: You know, if you if you raised up a program from nothing and made it a national contender, then you got, you know, then you got called up by the the big leagues, so to speak.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_01: And so if you're gonna hire like Ben Halland, UCLA is a obviously very rich tradition in basketball school, and they poached him away.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_01: Uh Harris, it wasn't quite the same thing.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, going to Stanford was not exactly like going to Michigan or Iowa St.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_00: I think yeah, I think like yeah, he decided he was out, and I think the administration wanted him out.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_00: Like, yeah, if you're looking for another job, now's the time to do it kind of thing.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_01: But to your point, waiver you're fired.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_01: But to your point, I think for for long, I think that like you said, the attitude was, okay, th this is we're not go we don't want guys using this as a stepping stone.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_01: We want guys who want to be here.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_01: And when they hired Jamie Dixon and when they hi when they hired Dave Wansted, that's really what they were that was really the mentality there.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_01: Like these are guys that are gonna stay.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_01: And honestly, even to this day, I feel like that continues.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_01: They're they're always trying to go after guys that they think are gonna want to be here.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_01: It's not always a local guy like Dave, but it it's you know, they they realize that they don't want to be the stepping stone program.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it's tough, I think, too, when you're constantly turning over coaches because coaches set such a precedent.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's it's like starting over every couple years.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_00: And that's kind of what happened after WandStat.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_00: They just kept stepping.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_00: Although, I mean, you could look at a University of Cincinnati, they've hired like three or four coaches and all had success.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know how they do it.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, they hired D'Antonio, then they hired Kelly, and now they have this fickle, and they've had success under now.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know, you could say maybe they don't play a tough a schedule as other teams, but I mean that's and they they had Tommy Tubberville, I think, in there too.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_00: But Pitt But Pitt doesn't want to do that.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, Pitt definitely did not have success doing that.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_01: Every time Pitt changed coaches, so when they changed to Wanstead, it didn't go well at first, and then when they fired Wanstead, they they went through just years of chaos in what, six different coaches in three years or some ridiculous number like that.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_01: So so you know, typically, especially a school like Pitt, to change coaches, like you said, it does start everything over.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_01: The the people they recruited are not the guys, you know, are different.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_01: They recruited them to play a certain system, now you're bringing another system, you have players transfer, it's it's all kinds of chaos.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_01: You you definitely would rather have stability than not have stability at the coaching position.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_00: And that was definitely, yeah, their main criteria with Dave Weinstadt.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_00: They call him a pit man.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_01: And he was.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_01: He was he was he was a pit guy, he was a Pittsburgh guy through and through.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_01: And we talked about this in an earlier podcast when we talked about the the 2007 West Virginia game.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_01: Dave would have stayed there till he died.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_01: He would have been like Paterno.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_01: He would have stayed there till he died if they would have let him.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_01: And that's that's what they were going for.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_01: And Walt Harris was not that guy.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_00: No, Walt Walt definitely was not staying there for the long term.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_00: Well, and you can see like Walt, Walt um, you know, the aftermath for all the, you know, everybody seemed to take a hit.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_00: Like you we said when they switched from the pass happy offense to a run first offense, it took a couple years to sink in.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_00: They didn't go to a bowl game.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_00: Tyler Paco, after the Fiesta Bowl, Tyler Paco didn't play in another bowl game.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_00: Which is hard to believe.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_00: He's only he he was there and he only played one.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_01: He played two more seasons after that.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and he only played in one bowl game.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um I guess the recruiting talent had dipped a little because he had lost.
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_00: I remember the wide receivers were really bad.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_00: Like Joe Dardo, like, I'm taller and faster than Joe Del Sardo, and that's that's a bad thing.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_00: That's probably not good.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_00: Uh Greg Lee, I don't know what Greg Lee was thinking, but for some reason he thought he was an NFL wide receiver, and I'm no expert.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_00: I could just tell from watching him play that he was nowhere near an NFL wide receiver, even if he would have stayed and been lucky to have been a NFL wide receiver.
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, Greg Lee's a tragic story because he left here.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, he listened to an agent or something.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_01: And and I remember him being on the radio.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I think it was like Stan Savin interviewing him, and he's like, So where are you projecting yourself?
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_01: And he said the third round of the NFL draft.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_01: And like there was a long pause for Stan.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_01: Like you could just tell he didn't want to like it was too late.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_01: Like you can't say anything at that point, but you could tell he just was like, Oh my gosh, you're kidding me.
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_01: And Greg Lee didn't get drafted, and I don't know what I don't think he ever played it down in professional football.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, he's serving milkshake somewhere.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um okay, after that, Walt Harris, he went to Stanford, but he only lasted two years.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_00: And in the second season, they only won one game at Stanford.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_00: I think they lost to San Jose State and uh and at a home opener.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_00: Like Stanford built this beautiful new stadium, and uh they lost their home opener to like a Division I double A team.
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_00: So uh and Walt he's never had another head coaching job after Stanford.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_01: Did he coach after that?
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_01: Was he like an assistant?
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_00: He's been assistant, he's been he came back to Western Pennsylvania and like coached a little bit with like Cal U and stuff like that, but nothing nothing major, no major programs or nothing.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_00: So I mean, once again, like I don't know what happened to Walt, but after that, he definitely fell off a uh cliff.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um Dave Weinstatt is replacement, like we said, took three years for him to really get the program to where he wanted, and um he found some success.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_00: But um even even Dave Weinstatt didn't go to a New Year's Day bowl in his tenure at Pitt.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_00: Uh Tyler Pauco, he started two more years and never did play in another bowl game.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_00: Tyler Pauko, uh despite that, ended his college career tied for second in his school history with um Cleveland Browns offensive coordinator Alex Van Pelt.
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_00: He's gonna he's gonna straighten out their uh Baker Mayfield.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_00: And uh okay, he was second in passing yardage to some guy named uh Dan Merino.
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know who's that.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_01: That's hard to believe about Palko, like you said.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_01: You don't think of Palco is like an all-time great pick quarterback, but he certainly has a lot of numbers.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I even with the uh switch though, you know, the Matt Kavanaugh offense, and uh he's one of the top three passes in Panther football history.
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, is that just because and he only played three years, right?
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, he only played three years redshirted, yeah.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_00: So Joe Flacco um got tired of sitting around and not playing.
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_00: So he would uh transfer to a Division I AA school, the University of Delaware, and uh go on to become a first-round NFL draft pick for the Baltimore Ravens and uh winning a Super Bowl with the Baltimore Ravens.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_01: And being a Super Bowl MVP and getting a very huge contract.
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and there's a lot of people who don't think he's elite.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_00: I've always found that funny.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_00: He's a he's a big arm.
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_00: I mean he's tall.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, certainly we could debate whether or not Joe Flacco's elite.
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_01: All I can say is that Joe Flacco did win a Super Bowl.
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_00: That's more than Tyler.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_00: Tyler Paco had a horrendous NFL career.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_01: And you can't and you can't and you can't take that away from him.
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_00: So who the worst c who had a worse NFL career, him or Nathan Peterman, who there's a debate.
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, pit quarterbacks have not Joe Flacco is the probably the only pit quarterback since Merino to have really found any kind of success in the NFL, and he you know, he played three downs at Pitt.
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_01: So That's definitely
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: Definition of having a cup of coffee here.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and the 2004 season, there's like so many in like pit football history.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_00: Like, it's just so bittersweet because it's like so many great things happen.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_00: Like I said, like even the the the win against Boston College, the comeback against Furman, the you know, beating Notre Dame in Notre Dame with Palco throwing five touchdowns, beating your big rival West Virginia, and making a bull and making a New Year's Day bowl.
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_00: If you would have said that before the season, I said, well, there's no way Walt Harris is gonna leave, you know.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_00: But uh for whatever reason, Walt in the administration just could not see eye to eye, and that's a pretty common theme throughout Pitt athletic history for whatever reason.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that's uh one of the more interesting seasons of uh Pitt football.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_00: Uh probably their would you say one of their more successful I mean I can't think of another seasons where they've had they haven't been to New Year's Day bowl.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_00: That's their only New Year's Day bowl since the eighties, yeah.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_01: I mean the Fiesta Bowl is definitely the if you want to talk about like the furthest they ever got in terms of a a a bowl game, it was this season.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_01: It was a little bit of a fluke because the Big East had that.
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_01: Was it down year, yeah.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, because they were eight and four that year.
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_01: They had like they had better years under Harris and Wanstead where they didn't get to go to the Fiesta Bowl.
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_01: So it was a little bit of a fluke, however uh it was what it was, and they made it there.
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_01: And and Harris, you know, i it was it was a weird tenure that he had.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_01: You know, when he first came in, he was a hero because the program was just in absolute shambles.
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_01: And he brought this offense, this exciting offense.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_01: He will he was able to recruit guys like Antonio Bryan and Larry Fitzgerald and you know uh Latif Graham, like these exciting offensive, um talented players.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but then on the field he just was never really able to get over whatever the hump was that he needed to get over.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, and then when he sort of finally did, then that was the end of Walt Harris.
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_01: So it was kind of strange.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's just I it's hard to wrap your ra head around that.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's such a college football story because like so many college football seasons probably have ended like this.
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_00: You know, how many teams have had like a season where you, you know, there's teams that gone undefeated and not won a national championship.
• 46:35
  SPEAKER_00: So I mean it's that's just the way college football goes.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_01: Well, college football doesn't really have a real champion.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_01: You know, they have a subjective champion that people especially back then, yeah.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, especially back then there wasn't even a playoff.
• 46:47
  SPEAKER_01: The playoff you could even argue is a little subjective.
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, back then it was just like, oh, I guess this team's the best, so we'll vote for them, or we'll vote for two teams that are the best.
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, you kind of you kind of look at some of these seasons as just, okay, it it it it's not as definitive as a pro sport where you either win a championship or you don't.
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I guess it's too like why college football is always more based on rivalry, like beating your rival is such a big game.
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_01: And so the West Virginia, like you said, there were some really memorable moments, beating West Virginia, beating Notre Dame, making it, even making it, playing in that Fiesta Bowl where you know they were huge underdogs and you knew about I don't know, ten minutes into the first quarter that it wasn't even gonna be a game.
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_01: It was still like, oh my gosh, we're watching Pitt play in the Fiesta Bowl.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_01: It was a big deal.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_01: I think the first time they've been in the fiesta ball since like the early eighties, too.
• 47:36
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 47:36
  SPEAKER_01: I mean they they again they hadn't been in any kind of a a a big bowl game since Marino had graduated.
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, you're talking at that point uh, you know, twenty years and now thirty years, thirty plus years later, that's still the case.
• 47:52
  SPEAKER_01: That's still the the biggest bowl game they've played in.
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_01: So So it was it was exciting.
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah I mean they play yeah, the biggest the next biggest game is the ACC championship game they played right two years ago.
• 48:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 48:03
  unknown: Yeah.
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_00: And that and I that team's kind of similar to this team, like that.
• 48:05
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_00: They were just a plucky, plucky underdog, like that I didn't even think was gonna make a bowl game, never mind you know, the ACC championship.
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_01: But but I think like you said, it it it's so you remember that as a as a pretty cool season, but then it's like it's also the end of the the the the the era of what Harris being the coach and yeah who knows what would have happened if he would have stayed.
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_01: I mean things could have gone south just like they did for Wanstead, uh based on tougher competition in the Big East because some of those schools you know started passing Pitt, Connecticut and Cincinnati, some of those new schools to the Big East really pass Pitt up.
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_00: But Cincinnati, like I I can never like how can Cincinnati have so much success and Pitt can't even figure it out.
• 48:50
  SPEAKER_01: And would that would that have happened with Harris?
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_01: Like it did with Wanstead?
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_01: I we'll never really know the answer to that.
• 48:55
  SPEAKER_01: But regardless, like you said, uh something happened where both parties just sort of agreed that they didn't want to be in business together anymore.
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_01: It was an ugly divorce.
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_00: And we were the kids that were traumatized.
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_00: On that note, uh, thank you for tuning in.
• 49:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um we do uh do these every couple weeks.
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um enjoyable going over this, and uh thanks for having us.