Latest / Nonprofit411 Podcast / Burnout Isn't Inevitable with Abbey Harlow | Nonprofit411 Podcast
Transcript
- Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Hello and welcome to the Nonprofit 411 podcast. I'm your host, Sarah Barton, and I'm excited to be joined today by Abby Harlow, founder at Harlow Nonprofit Consulting. Abby works with small and rural nonprofits helping stretch teams move out of survival mode. She spent 20 years in nonprofit strategy, fundraising, and facilitation, and she started her firm in 2022. She works from Vermont and she likes to say that burnout isn't inevitable. Welcome, Abby. Abbey Harlow | HNC: Thanks, I'm so glad to be here, Sarah. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: I'm so excited to have you. So we actually just recently met because I learned about your upcoming summit and I was really excited because it's called the Rural Nonprofit Summit, correct? Abbey Harlow | HNC: Yes, the Rural Nonprofit Leader Summit. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Beater Summit. Yeah. So I work in West Virginia, which is a state that is entirely in the Appalachian region, and we are very rural. So I'm so excited about this conversation today because we'll have a lot to share, just about maybe challenges that are a little bit different from rural nonprofits versus maybe some more urban ones. Abbey Harlow | HNC: Mm-hmm. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: but before we get started, I always start with a question. What's your favorite hobby? Because I believe everyone needs to have a hobby. So what's yours? Abbey Harlow | HNC: That is so true. my favorite hobby is I would say hands down, probably reading. if you could see you see, I have books behind me, but I'm actually sitting in the library of my house right now. So I've got books next to me, books on the wall. I have 20 books, 20 audiobooks on hold on Libby. it's just always something that sort of resets me and is something I look forward to and really get excited by every year for my birthday I go on a little book buying trip. So yeah, it's hi it it's great. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Well, I love that. So my dad is an avid reader and I actually Abbey Harlow | HNC: Mm-hmm. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: grew up he had a bookstore growing up. And so I worked in the bookstore. it was a grocery store and they had a little bit of books, but then they found out that like the books were the biggest seller. And so they converted it and they were like one of the largest used bookstores in southern Pennsylvania. And I grew up with lots of books all around me. Abbey Harlow | HNC: I love that. My my dad was an English teacher and a huge, huge, huge, huge reader. and so I think that's a lot of where it comes from. Yeah. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Yeah, yeah. It until I was an adult. I actually I remember the the week my dad was sick. He like had the flu or something. It was the first time there was a day during that period, it was the first time I'd ever seen him without a book. and Abbey Harlow | HNC: Mm. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: so like, you know, and my grandmother was the same way. In fact, she said she almost got hit by a train once because she was reading a book and she was walking on the railroad tracks. So here's your free piece of advice today. If you're walking on the railroad tracks, you should not be reading your book at the same time. Abbey Harlow | HNC: Yes. I always tell my daughter, you because she's also she's always has a book too. And I'll I'm s I'll say like, you know, you can't walk down the stairs and read Lucy's. That's that's gonna end poorly for you one of these days. So it's an ongoing lesson. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Yeah, so but you know, us readers have to learn. I'm an audio Abbey Harlow | HNC: Mm-hmm. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: listener these days, so I can work clean and walk down the railroad track with my book in. Abbey Harlow | HNC: Ha ha ha Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: But well, okay, so let's get into the meat of it. I wanna learn a little bit more about you. Tell me about how you got into nonprofit work, what type of work you've done, and how you got to where you are today. Abbey Harlow | HNC: Yeah. okay, so backing it up sort of to the beginning of Abbey, I grew up in a rural area. it's actually where I live now. my my whole state, like yours, Vermont, is a rural area. I went to school in a college town. I did a lot of work in the music world and sector, working at different like music venues. I was also studying to be an opera singer and contemplated taking that further. And I also worked at the arts and music section of the public library in my college town. and then so I had this whole like, you know, patchwork of arts background. In my senior year of college, I I spent a semester in Washington, DC interning at one of the Smithsonian museums. And that was my first sort of nonprofit experience. And I thought, okay, well, maybe this is what I want to do. And, you know, I think also there's just a lot of pressure placed on knowing what you want to do. And I definitely felt that in my early twenties and and sort of fell into the nonprofit world by accident, which was a happy accident. but you know, I did I've done a whole bunch of things in the nonprofit sector. So I started working after college at a museum in Boston and then, you know, just worked in different museums, performing arts nonprofits for the bulk of my in house career. The first fundraising job, which is most of my nonprofit background, was again just sort of like, I I would love to work at this nonprofit. and this job that's open as a fundraising, you know, entry level position, great, I'll I'll check it out. And and it all sort of went from there. after my husband and I got married about 10 years ago, we moved to Vermont. He's not from here, but just love Vermont. And then in twenty twenty two, fast forward a few years, I had my son. I already had a daughter during the pandemic. And it just really changed the way my my life looked in addition to it already being, you know, the pandemic and life changing for so many of us. And I thought, okay, where do I where do I take this from here? What do I wanna do? How do I wanna be spending my time? Who do I want to be working with? and Harlow nonprofit consulting was born. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: I love that. Yeah. Yeah. And I think as a fundraiser, I mean, the for me, like as a fundraiser at a nonprofit, I want to know that other nonprofits have that support too, because I believe so many nonprofits are so important, right? And so, and and they may not have the capacity to do the fundraising themselves. So that's I love that. I love that, you know, you've kind of gone this route. I think many fundraisers are finding their space in a consulting role simply because we can impact organizations at a greater, you know, a greater number of organizations overall. And we're already passionate about nonprofits being, I don't know, I think they're kind of a a heart of a community in a lot of ways. Abbey Harlow | HNC: Mm. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: You know, they provide like the heart services of a community. So so you're doing consulting now and you Abbey Harlow | HNC: Mm-hmm. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: have this passion for rural community or for rural nonprofits. Abbey Harlow | HNC: Mm-hmm. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: I'm assuming that's the brainchild for Abbey Harlow | HNC: Ha ha. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: for the rural nonprofit summit or for the rural nonprofit leader summit. Abbey Harlow | HNC: Yes. So I you know, most of the p these past four or so years, as well as, you know, my in house career, except for the time I was in Boston, has been with rural and or small nonprofits. And in many ways they have their own you know, their own needs and their own ways of functioning. They're sort of almost like their own little part of the nonprofit world. and even you know, living in a rural state where we're all considered rural, there are pockets of this state that feel, you know, more rural, more left out than others. And I think this is where this idea started coming together for me is I I was speaking at a workshop in the southern half of Vermont. so to back up our city or our our state has one quote unquote big city, which is Burlington, near the northern end. so I was at the other end of the state giving a workshop and two non with nonprofits. And afterwards a couple k of them came up to me and they said, we're just so glad to have this resource down here, not have to drive to the, you know, Burlington, the big city, not have to potentially pay to stay overnight there. This is just so great. And I thought, wow, within my state, you know, there are people who feel that way and it's a rural state. you know, obviously this is something to noodle on. That was almost Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Yeah. Abbey Harlow | HNC: a year ago. And I I've sort of been thinking about it since. And yeah, that was thoughts like that were a big impetus behind the the summit. Just the the need for for free quality resources for rural nonprofits. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Well, and do you think that there are specific challenges that rural organizations have that the rest of the sector may not understand entirely? Abbey Harlow | HNC: Yeah, so I actually, as part of the planning for this event, did a lot of surveying of rural nonprofit leaders to sort of confirm or add to some of the things I was already hearing. and three buckets were really what came up. The first was funding. And and you know, on the on the surface, it sounds like, yeah, well n all nonprofits, you know, need help with funding. but you know, specifically We don't have somebody devoted to fundraising. We don't know which grants to apply to because we're in competition with, you know, a big city or a more well resourced nonprofit, another part of the state. you know, we're relying on this like or a big one is, you know, we everybody asks the same people in our small town. We don't know who else to go to. So that was one and then the a feeling of isolation was a really big one as well. Just we don't have colleagues down the road or we don't have you know, mixers, networking events we can go to where we can just say, Hey, did this weird thing, you know, ever happen at your organization? Let's talk about it. So that that was also a big one. And then burnout, which we're all of course, you know, feeling or have encountered to some extent. But the idea of just oftentimes and not always, you know, there are larger rural nonprofits, but oftentimes it's just far too few people serving a very large geographical area for their amount of staff and it's just it doesn't feel sustainable. I I actually earlier this year I was leading a workshop for rural organizations and somebody at the end of it said, you know, I and every day feeling like I have not done enough and that I'm a failure. and that's just so heartbreaking, but it also I think is something that so many of us can relate to in some ways or just sounds sounds Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Yeah. Abbey Harlow | HNC: familiar. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Yeah. Yeah. I think too, you know, as I've worked with rural nonprofits, one, I want to say that rural nonprofits, I say all the time, and I want to say this here and record it because other people need to hear it. They squeeze water from dry sponges. that's Abbey Harlow | HNC: No. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: you know, very frequently they will make things happen even when it's very hard. So they're very resourceful. I I find that they're super resourceful and money is only one resource and they're very good at managing some of the other resources that come into their ecosystem. and and feel free to, you know, if if that's not your experience, but that's that's been my experience. Abbey Harlow | HNC: yeah. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: And I don't I don't know that people always realize like how what some of the monumental tasks are, but when you talk about regions, I know in West Virginia. Even our American Red Cross, which is a larger organization, but it's serving the rural population in West Virginia. They have 16 counties. And we have 66 counties in the state, but 16 counties spans a very large region. And the local office has three people, and that's three people to do all the things, you know. and so travel is a Abbey Harlow | HNC: Mm, yeah, yeah. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: huge barrier and challenge, especially if the services are need to be face to face, right? Abbey Harlow | HNC: Yeah, absolutely. That is just such a there's fewer people, but it's more spread out. and it's just such a big part of it. And I think, you know, to your first point, there's a lot of pluckiness, I feel like, in rural nonprofits. You know, I'm thinking, so I live the the largest town near me is I think the second biggest, again, quote unquote city in Vermont. and a few years ago, sort of late. mid to late pandemic, somebody in the town, you know, w there was need of a a day shelter and a food pantry and warm meals. And this person just said, Well, this needs to happen and I'm gonna start it. And I'm just gonna like sort of work my way through it. I've never done nonprofit work before. and, you know, a couple of years into it, she'd sort of like snowballed her way through doing this and learning things and picking up things and then was like, Okay, now like I need to I need to figure out what other hands and and minds and collaborations I can bring into this. But it started with her being, you know, her recognizing the need and just saying, Well I'm gonna no one else is doing it, so I'm gonna do it and it's just gonna get done. Yeah. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Yes. And I think that's what contributes to like the challenges then with the fundraising is that they never started it really as a business model, right? They Abbey Harlow | HNC: Mm-hmm. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: and and so in in nonprofits, in not the nonprofit sector, we talk about this is a business with a tax identification, right? That's what Abbey Harlow | HNC: Mm. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: a nonprofit is. But oftentimes if we're talking about the way the businesses are built, they're really built from just seeing a need, answering that need, and then it's continuing. And now we're in a situation where we can't continue it with our own funds or with just the donations of you know our friends and family. And so we have to move into greater and greater fundraising. Abbey Harlow | HNC: Mm-hmm. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: So when it comes to fundraising, what are some of the what are some of the most creative solutions that you've seen organizations embrace as they want to, you in improve and enhance their fundraising. Abbey Harlow | HNC: That's a great question. I Should say too that I've sort of in the last couple years transitioned more out of fundraising. So these aren't like these are sort of from a few years ago, but I not fresh 2026 ideas. but I think you know, many things still apply no matter what year it is. I think the rural I'm and then I'm sp specifically thinking rural nonprofits still right now. again, it just goes back. That pluckiness than not being afraid to show up and say, here's what's going on, and I need help and I need support. And I think sometimes we get in this mindset of, well, people know we exist, and they would get involved if they want to. I mean, that's a simplistic way of saying it, but in in a sense. and you know, we just don't want to be in the way. And I think I see a lot of fresh nonprofits, new nonprofits, or just rural, smaller nonprofits in general, just being, you know, saying, well, why, you know, I have to. I have to, my community needs this. I have to, you know, put the word out there and I need to engage anyone who can help me with that. So I think I think that's a really big one. And I think also just, you know, experimentation. I I think there's a I not love isn't the right word, but a willingness to experiment with things that that I don't always see elsewhere. Just yeah, okay, we'll apply for that. Or like, yeah, fine, we'll send out a fundraising, you know, appeal. We've never done that before, but that's great. We're gonna do that because because we we can and we should or not that sending out A year end appeal is like this great experimentation, but just this idea of, yeah, we'll we'll see what happens, we'll see what sticks and then we'll if we have time evaluate it. Yeah. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Yeah. Yeah. I do I like that you say experimentation though, because I think in any business, I'm learning as an entrepreneur too, right? That we have to experiment. We don't know until we try it. And sometimes it it goes super and then sometimes it's like, mm, not so good. Okay, we're not gonna do that one again. Abbey Harlow | HNC: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: So so I love that. Okay. You I mentioned at the beginning that you know You said burnout isn't inevitable for nonprofit Abbey Harlow | HNC: Yeah. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: staff, which I think is such a great topic. Cause you said, you know, in terms of the buckets, burnout's a concern. And the Abbey Harlow | HNC: Mm-hmm. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: state of the nonprofits 2026 report said that last year, 33% of executive directors reported that they were worried about their own burnout. This year in 2026, it was forty-six percent. So that's a huge increase. so how do we help in nonprofit in in especially when we're thinking about rural nonprofits where it's a small team, how do we help prevent burnout or address burnout? Abbey Harlow | HNC: That's such a great and such a a big question, right? you know, and I think we tend so I have a few a few different ways and thoughts I can answer this question. And I think the first thing I'll say is, you know, we tend to treat burnout or we I don't we don't want to start the conversation about burnout from like a, okay, this is on the individual, right? You know, you need to take it upon yourself to take some time away to step back. That's yeah, that's very important. It's a very com important conversation to have. But I think it starts with sort of this sector wide idea that you know, because you do this mission based based work, you really need to put your all into it, you know, or more than your all, right? Because that's what burnout is causing. that maybe your time is not worth as much. And I think, you know, that's a really harmful system to have in place. So I think I think it starts from that, and I don't, you know, have an easy answer for that, other than we should all keep talking about it and talking with each other about it, and and just putting it out there. I think at an organizational level, even when it's small, this, you know, one example that I'll often work with Burl nonprofit leaders on is bring up the idea of the Eisenhower matrix, which if you're not familiar with it, it's this time management tool. There are four quadrants and each one has some delineation of urgent but not important, urgent and important. So it helps you will will tend to like walk through their last few days or their week and write down everything they did. assign it to one of those quadrants and then say okay what in your la what in the last week surprised you what what quadrant did you spend more time in than you thought what could you have delegated to somebody and if you don't have anybody to delegate to what could you have not done and how would that have felt because I I think an important thing about doing exercises like this is not only to To take a real look at the work you're doing, but also just sort of let your mind think, okay, if I didn't do this, how would that feel? And then what would actually happen? Because I think many of us get into a mindset of we're doing this work and we can't stop because something big and bad will happen. and I think making it sort of task, looking at a specific task and saying, Now what would actually happen if that didn't if that didn't get done? That's that's a great way, I think, to approach it on an individual level, but it's also a big systemic structural thing that we're really gonna be diving into at the at the summit for sure. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Yeah. I love that. I think that so often it is it is hard to walk away when there's still someone at the door, right? It it's super Abbey Harlow | HNC: Mm-hmm. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: hard to walk away. And I I know someone who is an amazing nonprofit leader. She she's in a rural county and has continued to grow the work of her organization. But one of the things that she taught me, this was really interesting, and I I I think that it, you know, it applies often, is that she had to, she teaches people how to have expectations about what she does. So she runs a food pantry, she runs a she has a a day center type place, she has a drop-in center that kids can come to also. And so she has all these resources in the community. And I remember Being with her one time and she was talking about somebody had reached out to her after hours about needing diapers because they were completely out. And she told and the individual knows that they give diapers and what their hours are. And she told that individual, you'll have to come in tomorrow. I'm not sure what your solution will be tonight, but we are only open during these hours and you you have to come back during our open hours. And I and I like We had this conversation about it, and she's like, it seems harsh, but actually it's really not. It's a realistic expectation and also it helps people to know how to treat you. And I was like, wow, that's a great lesson that like many organizations can learn from because Abbey Harlow | HNC: Mm-hmm. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: sometimes I think, especially in the rural community, we feel pressured to be the solution all the time, right? And so like Abbey Harlow | HNC: Mm-hmm. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: To set some boundaries about what the expectations are. And she said, you know, I I maybe have this problem once with the person, but I never have it twice. They'll come in and they'll make sure that they make it in during our open hours. And she has evening hours, like she makes a lot of accommodations. It's just that Abbey Harlow | HNC: Right. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: those are the accommodations. They're not like beyond that is not within her capacity because it's just Abbey Harlow | HNC: Mm-hmm. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: a very, very small team and she is the main. Peace. Abbey Harlow | HNC: Right, right. And I think, you know, part of that just pinged in my mind, a part of the thing with rural nonprofits and rural communities too is you're it's likely you know these people. So I think that makes some of those boundaries more porous. You know, it's I'll see this person at the post office tomorrow or at the gas station or whatever it is. and And and also I have this other way that they're interacting with me. So it it can make things complicated. That's yeah, that's Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Yeah, yeah. Abbey Harlow | HNC: great. And I I think that same thing applies within an organization too. It's making sure you know, for example, I I worked with an organization recently that said we don't have job descriptions and that's worked for us until now and now it doesn't. And that helps us we need something like that. Help us understand how to interact with each other and what we're supposed to be asking each other for. and another person said to me recently, too, you know, I I've stopped answering emails right away. And you know, that sounds perhaps not revolutionary, but I think for lots of people it is, because she said, I've realized that when I respond to somebody, they then respond to me. And if I just wait a while, sometimes they figure it out for themselves or they realize maybe they should try to figure it out for themselves beforehand. And just sort of these little almost micro boundaries I think can help, can help a lot like strengthen that that muscle in in a way that you have the ability to do. Not everybody can say, I'm not gonna check my email for the next six hours and have that be okay. But what's a version of that for you? Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Yeah, yeah, I really like that. I'm board chair for an organization called Inspiring Dreams Network. And as I was training one it I think it's been maybe a year ago or two years ago, I had this epiphany because I was training with Dr. Barb Brady. She's the executive director, and we were talking about helping kids in the summertime. Like, so what do you do? And you know It was really fascinating because we naturally will say, Well, we just take them the food or we get them to the food or we, you know, give them the resources. And she said empowering is actually teaching them how to do it too. And and Abbey Harlow | HNC: Mm-hmm. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: so, like in the summertime, the things that we were we teach about empowering in the summer is that helping people identify what other types of resources they have in the community. You know, maybe not organizational resources, but there's people resources. I know one of my friends was talking about when they were small, that they knew that, you know, if they needed safety, they could go to this neighbor. If they needed food, they could go to that neighbor, you know. And so I think that in rural communities, this idea of empowering others to help them be able to identify some resources, because there still are a lot of resources in in small. Communities. that that grittiness Abbey Harlow | HNC: Absolutely. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: and that pluckiness. I love that word that you said. You know, we can teach others how to have it too, right? Abbey Harlow | HNC: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right. Absolutely. And I think, you know, back to that bucket of isolation, community collaboration. I think, you know, there's that's a definite part of it for rural nonprofits. But I also think Creating your own network, creating your own web of of people who y who can help you, is also the other the flip side of that. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Yeah. Yeah, I call it broad-based community support. And I think Abbey Harlow | HNC: Mm. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: rural communities have the opportunity to really grow that because there's still that community flavor a lot of times in those community. Like they val that's Abbey Harlow | HNC: Mm-hmm. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: a value that they carry, right? Yeah. So Abbey Harlow | HNC: Right. Yeah, absolutely. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: okay. I can't even believe like I could I could definitely talk to you longer about this just because I think Abbey Harlow | HNC: Yeah. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: it's so interesting and just to share, you know, our experiences with rural nonprofits. But we're almost at time. So I wanna before we you know, tell everybody where they can find you, what is something that you would love all nonprofit leaders to know, especially those in the rural Abbey Harlow | HNC: Ooh, that's a great, great question. I think hmm let me think for a minute. I think that there I that you can take time for yourself for your organization you could take time to strategize that I think so many organizations especially rural ones or smaller ones run on urgency and you know maybe a lot of that is is of necessity but I think doing a hard reset almost and saying I can take the time and I need to take the time to strategize, to think about the big picture, to step away because I'm a human with other things, is really important and it's something that grows on a on an individual level with practice, on an organization level with, you know, the leadership sort of making that a priority. but yeah, also remembering if you can't do it or if you feel bad about it, that's that's the system. That's that's capitalism for you. And we just you know, it's not always your problem to solve, but it can feel feel badly sometimes. But practice anyway. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Yeah. I really appreciate that. I think that that's great advice. So thank Abbey Harlow | HNC: Thank you. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: you, Abby. Where can people find you and where can people find out about the Ohural Nonprofit Leadership Summit? Abbey Harlow | HNC: Yes. So the the people can find me at on LinkedIn at Ab Abby Harlow, Harlow Nonprofit Consulting. And they can find me on my website, Harlow Nonprofit Consulting.com. Clearly I'm very, very creative with all of these. and then the summit is on my website and I can I can share a link to that. there's a wait list currently open. Doors will open on October 1st. And I'm super excited. I'm I'm really excited for for you to speak and to listen to what you have to say as well. And it's it's just gonna be a lot of fun. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: That's awesome. Well, thank you so much for joining today. And Abbey Harlow | HNC: Thank you. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: to our listeners, I want to thank you for listening. If you enjoyed this show and you would like to learn more, please like, link, and subscribe. Those really do help us to grow our audience and to help other nonprofit leaders with advice from all these nonprofit experts. I hope you have a great week and tune in next time for our next conversation.