Latest / The Chuck ToddCast / Interview Only w/ Mike Pesca - The Structural Reforms American Democracy Desperately Needs

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Interview Only w/ Mike Pesca - The Structural Reforms American Democracy Desperately Needs · The Chuck ToddCast

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  Speaker 2: Well.
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  Speaker 1: Coming back for a return engagement, as we'd like to
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  Speaker 1: do regularly, I think we're almost doing this quarterly. It's
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  Speaker 1: my my pal, Mike Pesca of the Just List and
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  Speaker 1: all sorts of his his world. We were just talking
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  Speaker 1: about each other's each other's digital world, and we like
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  Speaker 1: to have our worlds collide.
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  Speaker 3: Mike, it's good to see.
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  Speaker 2: You, Hey, thanks for having me. Speaking of quarterly what
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: happened to the Trump proposal to do away with quarterly
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  Speaker 2: reports and only do by anyal I guess it would
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  Speaker 2: be Actually just so there's that's still moving its way.
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  Speaker 3: Through the SEC. I think I actually just saw an
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  Speaker 3: update on that.
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  Speaker 2: There is I think which I've talked.
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  Speaker 3: Oh, it's a good idea. I talked to you.
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  Speaker 1: You know, there was a so Jack Welch is considered
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  Speaker 1: the got the the sort of the godfather of that idea, right,
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  Speaker 1: the quarterly reports to goose stock prices. Back in his
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  Speaker 1: old ge days and towards the end of his life
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  Speaker 1: he started expressing like he admitted, I probably that the
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  Speaker 1: quarterly report idea.
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  Speaker 2: Was it is past.
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  Speaker 1: He wouldn't, you know, because no person of his ego
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  Speaker 1: will ever admit they were wrong. He just sort of
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  Speaker 1: admitted that they were. It was no longer useful and
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  Speaker 1: so was probably hurting companies. He was he was pre right, Yes, yeah, exactly, you.
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  Speaker 3: Know the way somebody with a huge ego like his.
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  Speaker 2: So the down yeah, the downside to that that I've
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  Speaker 2: heard is that back when Jack Welsh was pioneering that
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  Speaker 2: things were a little more stable and now quarterly reports
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  Speaker 2: at least give some visibility into possible meltdowns. But also
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  Speaker 2: the Ft. There's an FT podcast I know you like
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  Speaker 2: the Ft, and they were having a debate where I
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  Speaker 2: think they said, just financially good idea, but what you
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  Speaker 2: don't want to do is give Donald Trump any wins. Ever,
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  Speaker 2: and these were FT journalists right now, but they were
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  Speaker 2: embracing I guess their activism, which is once he comes
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  Speaker 2: up with a good idea, that's the most dangerous thing
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  Speaker 2: of all. And I was contrasting that. I did a
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  Speaker 2: thing on the Gist my show with The Dispatch where
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  Speaker 2: viewed Emily Auster, who was saying, you know, some of
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  Speaker 2: this MAGA stuff, not the vaccines, but the meat and
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: the food pyramid, that is a good idea. And then
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  Speaker 2: she got blowback, how are you giving Trump credit? So
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  Speaker 2: even journalistically, it's interesting the Dispatch, you know, these former
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  Speaker 2: Republicans are maybe still identified conservatives. They're saying we have
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  Speaker 2: to be honest, that if we need to give Trump
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  Speaker 2: a win, we give them a win. And the Financial Times,
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  Speaker 2: which definitely sees themselves outside the activism continuum, said no,
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  Speaker 2: we can never give Donald Trump a win.
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  Speaker 3: No, this.
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  Speaker 1: Well, you know, this is at the core of the
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  Speaker 1: redistricting fight in Virginia. This is a bad idea, This
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  Speaker 1: is bad for democracy. But the but the counter argument
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  Speaker 1: from people that even admit, yeah, this is not a
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  Speaker 1: good idea long term, you got to fight fire with fire.
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  Speaker 1: And it's the whole, this whole mentality. And I just think,
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  Speaker 1: look what we've turned into is I think both parties
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  Speaker 1: have become reactionary parties. Right, they don't really right, they
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  Speaker 1: define themselves right own the Libs and Trump resistance is
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  Speaker 1: really the same ideology, don't you think.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, And all we're doing in Yvone, Levine writes about this,
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  Speaker 2: we're just in this era of going back and forth
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  Speaker 2: and to and fro, and I don't see how we
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  Speaker 2: get out of it now, as far as the redition, I.
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  Speaker 1: Do, but we got out of this before. I obsessed
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  Speaker 1: over this. This is actually the I'm going to pull
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  Speaker 1: a muscle padding my promoting something I'm doing here, but
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: on my substack this week, I sort of go through
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: I'm obsessed with the period between Jackson and Lincoln in
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  Speaker 1: American history because it was this we had technically eight
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: presidents in twenty four years, because of deaths.
• 5:37
  Speaker 3: But it was really seven.
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  Speaker 1: Presidencies in twenty four years because you had the thirty
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  Speaker 1: one day president and each one of them, and essentially
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: it was like each president was elected claiming they were
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  Speaker 1: going to solve it, they were going to bring the
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  Speaker 1: country together, they were going to quote solve this problem, right,
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  Speaker 1: but not necessarily solve the problem, meaning.
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  Speaker 3: At that time it's slavery.
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  Speaker 1: But it would be all these papering over ideas, right,
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  Speaker 1: So you had whether it was the Democrats nominating a
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  Speaker 1: northern or at one point in Franklin Pierce, or the
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  Speaker 1: joint Tickets, which was Harrison and what's it the dough face, right, yeah,
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  Speaker 1: the few the signing of the Fugitive Slave Act that
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: Millard Fillmore thought was going to finally, you know, to
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  Speaker 1: break some peace, right, it was, but it was a
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  Speaker 1: It was just a series of presidents that were trying
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  Speaker 1: to paper over, right. And then finally the Whigs were
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  Speaker 1: just too weak to deal with the issue. And then
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  Speaker 1: finally we got a new party in the Republican Party.
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  Speaker 1: So it led me to think, which party is going
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  Speaker 1: to be the Whigs, because I'm convinced one of them
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  Speaker 1: is going away in the next decade or so big
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: out of frustration by there bye by like you can't,
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  Speaker 1: you're not you're not accomplishing. You know, there's going to
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  Speaker 1: be a moment, and I think, you know.
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  Speaker 3: Trump won.
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  Speaker 1: Everybody thought it'd be the Republicans. I'm not thinking, well,
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  Speaker 1: it could very easily be the Democrats, right, because they're
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  Speaker 1: in some ways performing like the Whigs. At the moment
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  Speaker 1: where there's a divide inside the party, do you go
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  Speaker 1: full resistance or do you try to persuade those, you know,
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  Speaker 1: a few more from the other side to try to
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  Speaker 1: have a more durable majoritarianism. And I think that, you know,
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  Speaker 1: bottom line is we're not We're not done yet with
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  Speaker 1: this back and forth we had. We went through six
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  Speaker 1: presidencies between Jackson and Lincoln. Nobody got re elected, no
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  Speaker 1: party got reelected. Right, it was just a series of
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  Speaker 1: this stuff. And we're we're in our third one right now,
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  Speaker 1: twenty eight yet going to resolve this. So I think
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  Speaker 1: we will eventually resolve it. The question is how many
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  Speaker 1: people have to get hurt before we sober up.
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  Speaker 2: That's exactly what I was saying. So all it will
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  Speaker 2: take is six hundred thousand dead, Although normed for the
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  Speaker 2: current population now would be like what two million?
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  Speaker 3: Great? I know we're not advocating civil war here, guys. No,
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  Speaker 3: the boat.
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  Speaker 1: We're actually hoping we can resolve it with it, you know,
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  Speaker 1: just short of that. Yeah, there are different parties, systems.
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  Speaker 1: I wanted I heard your commentary on Virginia. So you
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  Speaker 1: think that even without this redistricting, it would go from
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  Speaker 1: now it's six Democrats, five Republicans.
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  Speaker 2: You think we'd go to nine to two.
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  Speaker 3: Eight three without it? Eighty three without it? You got
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  Speaker 3: the first and the second man.
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  Speaker 1: You think, do you think ten to one with it
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  Speaker 1: or I don't know if they get the ten one
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  Speaker 1: ten one max. Yeah, but it could end up at
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  Speaker 1: nine to two. So if you end up at nine two,
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  Speaker 1: you basically did all this work. You sort of peed
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  Speaker 1: away political capital of Barack Obama and Abigail Spamberger for
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  Speaker 1: one seat.
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  Speaker 2: Right, But do you think as a general principal Democrats
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  Speaker 2: who have always said we are better than redistricting for
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  Speaker 2: political gain, do you think that's what they should say
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  Speaker 2: or they should be recognizing the moment right now where
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  Speaker 2: the headwinds are that we don't need to do it
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  Speaker 2: right now. Because as a principle. I do not believe
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  Speaker 2: in unilateral disarmament.
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  Speaker 3: Sure, I understand that concept.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, I just think the problem is, I guess I'm
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  Speaker 1: even more Pollyannish about it. I think having more swing
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  Speaker 1: basically you're taking away swing districts. But if you actually
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  Speaker 1: have Republicans in light red districts, then you have more possibility.
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  Speaker 1: Would we be better off if a third of the
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  Speaker 1: Republican caucus were Don Bacon people? Or do you create
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  Speaker 1: a situation where no, you're just gonna have a whole.
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  Speaker 3: Bunch of James Comers. Is that what you want?
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  Speaker 1: And then then there's no ability to sort of bridge
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  Speaker 1: any divides, so that I actually think that that's the
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  Speaker 1: other part of this is that what do you what
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  Speaker 1: do you are we really gaining in this other than
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  Speaker 1: a fight just you know, a gavel And again I'm I'm.
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  Speaker 3: This, Look, we've gone through this.
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  Speaker 1: Anytime you want to temporarily suspend anything because you think no, no, no,
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  Speaker 1: First of all, how often have parties you know who
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: said no, no, no, we'll come back to this have actually
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: come back to this?
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  Speaker 3: Right?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that that's wise, but very specific to
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  Speaker 2: the moment, and I remember it was before we started
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  Speaker 2: seeing polls or knew much more than there's usually the
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  Speaker 2: swing back in the mid terms. But New York had
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  Speaker 2: the choice whether to really to throw out a fairly
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: drawn electoral map, or the Democrats could try to force
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: through their pro democratic map. And I remember thinking to myself,
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  Speaker 2: these are the Democrats right now kind of violating their
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  Speaker 2: own principles. And I don't know if they'll be punished
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: by the voters for it, but they're showing themselves to
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: be cynical, and it is I said, not a good look. Now,
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  Speaker 2: this was before I thought that they would win anyway,
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  Speaker 2: And in New York it doesn't really matter that My
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: matter is a little bit. You know, Upstate New York
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  Speaker 2: elects repulsive valley.
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  Speaker 1: There's a whole bunch of places where right now New
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: York is Ohio without the New York City mean.
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  Speaker 2: Well, Pennsylvania's Alabama with a tea in the middle. But
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  Speaker 2: as a principle, I don't think people really vote on it,
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  Speaker 2: especially because of the primacy of the primaries. And I
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  Speaker 2: think this is the biggest problem in American politics. You
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  Speaker 2: were talking about money. I think whatever can be done
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: to make the because we're so polarized. I mean, if
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: you want to go back to the EPI phenomenon, the
• 11:26
  Speaker 2: primaries of the EPI phenomenon on, our polarization is the worst.
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: And I have a friend and a guy I know,
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: Bradley Tusk, and he's tried to get essentially app voting,
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: and I think that would be a real game changer
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: if it could be done successfully. And he's convinced me
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  Speaker 2: it can be done, so I don't want to you know,
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: a lot.
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: They're going to experiment in Alaska with this first.
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  Speaker 2: Alaska and it's done in West Virginia and it's been
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: done successfully, and he specifically tried to bring it to
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: non Blue states. He tried to bring it to places
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: where they might be suspicious of this online voting app
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: and think about all the things that we do that
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: need to be secure on an app, from you know,
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: registering for a citizenship or for our IDs and everything else.
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: So it can be done. And once it's done, and
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: once it's easy, it takes primaries from something with eleven
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  Speaker 2: percent participation, so you know, fifty And I think that's
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  Speaker 2: a huge game changer and it's the number one reform
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: I think that really can change things look.
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  Speaker 1: And I actually think state I think I think we've
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: had this conversation before. I think taxpayer funded partisan primaries
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: I think are unconstitutional because you're telling me I have
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: to join a private organization in order to participate in
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: a taxpayer funded event. I think that's a violation of
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: equal protection. And now that I don't think they're you know,
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: I'm I am pretty I would just call it supportive
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: of the folks over at open primaries. And I've like
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: pushed this as as sort of I think there's a
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: legal I think there's actually you can you can sue
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: some of the states that had these that essentially bar
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: independence and bar non registered voters from this. But looked
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: all party primary, I mean, it is the better answer.
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  Speaker 3: There's no you know.
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  Speaker 1: The fact is, think about the office that is the
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: least partisan in America these days, it's mayor. And a
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: majority of mayors are elected in all party primaries, where
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: the top two candidates usually they don't even put parties.
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: A lot of them are none are you don't put
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: your party label on the ballot.
• 13:32
  Speaker 3: And top two play.
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: I mean, And the thing is is that I love
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: to use the example of a congressman and Carlos Sumenez.
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: He's a Republican congressman from Miami. When he was mayor
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: of Miami Dade, I had no idea he was a
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: conservative Republican because he didn't govern that way. He governed
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: the whole county. He was elected in a county wide vote.
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: He never put his party. You knew he leaned, right, Okay,
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: And let's say you governed based on how the votes
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: that get you in office. And then, of course he
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: got elected in a partisan Republican primary where the Republican
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: primaries everything, and he's voted a lot more concern even
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: challenged that the elect didn't certify in January sixth, right,
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: And I remember being surprised that he didn't because I
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: knew what kind of marry was. But I'd actually chalk
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: it up to I always say this, Our issue is incentives.
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: There are bad people can do good things with good incentives,
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: and good people can do bad things with bad incentives.
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: And our primary system is mostly a bad incentive.
• 14:33
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: And to be a mayor you have to deliver actual
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: material benefits to your voters and you will be judged
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: on that. And snow days matter, not in Miami, but
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: definitely in the Northeast. And then when you were a
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: part of an anonymous or by choice, a powerless organization
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: like the House of Representatives, then your incentives are all
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: to be either a free agent who is a burr
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: in the side of your party, or you know, a
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: party apparatic. Absolutely, what do you.
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: What do you think of these independent candidacies and do
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: you buy into them or are you one of those
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: that just doesn't believe these are going to work?
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: Duverger's law we only have two parties, babe? Do you
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: remember that from your political science training?
• 15:15
  Speaker 3: What was its law?
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: Duverger? It might be Duvage. This was the idea that
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: in a first past the post system such as ours,
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: you only ever get two parties. But it was one
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: of these laws with so many exceptions. I don't know
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: that being like a Tammany Hall law. Like look at India.
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: They have first passed the post and they have vulgar parties.
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: Of course it's India. So I think in some of
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: the cases, you know Nebraska, it's an imperative. It's the
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: only the In that case, the brand of the of
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: the Democrats are so toxic that it makes sense to
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: run as an independent say, with McMullen in Utah. Not
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: that he could win, but it makes sense to win
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: to run that way. And I also think on the
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: presidential level there's a real chance at a breakthrough of
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: a third party candidate. I think it's so much harder
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: at the state level. I kind of support it. I
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: like experimentation and mixing up, but you know, just because
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: of all the incentives and all the everything that's in place,
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: it makes it hard. It would be easier with that
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: jungle primary. I think first past, not first past the post,
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: but top two. Oh and one other thing I wanted
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: to say, it's a light criticism. I think that the
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: activists who were so behind ranked choice voting, they my
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: rank choice of electoral reforms that would be way down
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: the list. I'm more for it than against it, but
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: ninety somethings percent of the time it doesn't have a
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: real impact. There is a certain percentage of the time
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: where you could plausibly argue is the are the will
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: of the people really being reflected? And they did put
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: a lot of effort into that, as opposed to jungle primaries,
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: which I think would have helped things a lot more.
• 16:50
  Speaker 3: Well.
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: Look, the concept of top four then you know, sort
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: of top four advanced. You know, the Alaska law is
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: everybody's on the same ballot and top four advance, then
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: it becomes ranked choice for the general. I'd prefer it,
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: I'm with My issue with ranked choice goes back to
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: my days explaining what was explaining the vote count as
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: it was coming in on election nights, and nobody can
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: explain the black box that is ranked choice voting. There
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: is no way for me to be able to open
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: up on election night. Okay, here's the initial run and
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: you know, here's what we know about the second choices.
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: There appears to be this Canada has more second choices
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: off of this, And you know, do I think we
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: could get there with states and local officials getting better
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: at figuring out how to report these things out?
• 17:41
  Speaker 3: Yeah?
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: But are we better off not trying to have them
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: do two or three different counts on election night and
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: just focus on the main thing being the main thing,
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: the actual the first count, and then you have a runoff,
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: you know, I mean, look, I'm for Louisiana had the
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: of all the jump primary systems, it was Louisiana was
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: my favorite jungle system because they did it where the
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: all party primary actually was like in October or September,
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: was late, and then top if nobody got fifty, top
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: two met in the general election itself. So that way
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: you had because the fear is that if you have
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: a runoff after the general election, you get fewer, lesser turnout,
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: and it's less will of the people. That's why the
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: timing of the of the Louisiana system made the most
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: sense of how he did it. And then you don't
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: have to worry about rank choice voting, but you get
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: all the but you get the you get exactly what
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: rank choice voting wants to deliver.
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: Yes, And I think that I still think it's true
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: that ninety something percent of the vote would be the same,
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: and that's why these other reforms I think would deliver.
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: I think that Louisiana system has the potential to deliver
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: vastly different and more in line with the will of
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: the people results unlike astall.
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: Look, I think that by the way, look at the
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: last you know, Louisiana's basically created a Republican primary system
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: for this cycle just to beat Bill Cassidy. Right, it
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: became a but they got there getting rid of their
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: they got rid of the system just to defeat Bill Cassidy,
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: because in.
• 19:09
  Speaker 3: The old system, Cassidy would have won.
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: And the point being, if you actually look at Louisiana
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: election results over the past twenty five years, before you know,
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: they put this system in, you had a competitive two
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: party system. You had, Yeah, the land Drew dynasty was
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: that's right. And you also had you know, John Bell Edwards.
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: By the way, Washington State, which has a version of
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: this system too, also has had even though it's a
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: very blue state, it's been a very competitive Republican party
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: for some time up there because of this system. And
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: so I just think it actually gives minority voices more
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: of an opportunity.
• 19:48
  Speaker 3: To have to get their say.
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: And I look at Washington, Louisiana, who have Now you know,
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: again we're in this era where each party feels like
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: they have to do everything they can to maximize their
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: ability to win. In fact, so a buddy of mine
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: who's a big consultant in California, I asked him, so,
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: what happens if the two Republicans end up in the
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: top two and that's the general election, right, Steve Hilton
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: and Bianca? And he said Hilton would win and in
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: less than a year there'd be a recall, right, and
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: the top two and then the legislature would he and
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: then there'd be a ballot prop to get rid of
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: the all party primaries and California would return to this
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: old system, basically eradicate all the Arnold Schwarzenegger election reforms
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: within essentially eighteen months, if that is, If that's the
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: scenario and the way he at I said, you know what,
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: he's probably right. There would probably be a successful recall.
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: Hilton probably would get recalled pretty quickly. And you know,
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: you could just see that because we're so partisan right now,
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: particularly on the coasts, that would happen pretty quick.
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: So there's a classic conundrum there where Styer and Porter
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: and Swalwell looking at each other, and the mayor of
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: San Jose McMahon, who you had on the show the
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: other day. You know, he thinks it's a fairy is
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: at four percent or whatever? I guess you could say,
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: who blinks first? But is it? If someone has to it?
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: You know, it's the classic conundrum of they're all incentivized
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: not to go, but but some of them, one of
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: them has to go for the good of the trust.
• 21:29
  Speaker 3: Don't you trust the voters to figure it out? And
• 21:31
  Speaker 3: I just think they'll tune in. I don't know.
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: I think that if Stier or Porter or swollwell, if
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: one of them doesn't go, the risk is so far
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: outweighs their individual choice of a chance of becoming governor.
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: It could even ruin all of their careers, right, That's
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: maybe how they should think about it. But they were
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: so selfish that none of them would step down. This
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• 23:28
  Speaker 3: And yes, I too, am a customer. I can look
• 23:35
  Speaker 3: at it another way.
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: Isn't this isn't the fact that no Democrat has jumped
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: out and indictment of the candidates themselves who are running.
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: I mean, you know, you do have a lot of
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: I remember remember the since you're your you and I
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: are pretty close in age. You remember the nineteen ninety
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: two presidential field when it was in nineteen ninety one
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: and called the seven Dwarfs, yep, I remember that it
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: becomes none of them over, none of the major Democrats
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: that everybody thought were going to be the front runners.
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: They thought, oh, Bush is unbeatable, I'm not running. I'm
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: going to wait till ninety six. Right, you're Bill Bradley's
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: you're out, Gorge, your dicktep parts, all these Jay Rockefeller,
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: all these say I'm none. There were all these people
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: that said I'm waiting, and you know, so there were
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: those that said, well, every nomination's worth having, so why not.
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: And it does feel like the California right that the
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: mayor of San Francis. I've talked to so many Democrats
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: whore like, I wish the mayor of San Francisco were running,
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: Lurry or you have those in southern California. I wish
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: Rick Caruso were running, but he's not. I've heard others
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: say I wish Kamala Harrison running, I wish Alex Padilla
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: were running, there's a lot of It is amazing when
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: you look at the number of high profile people that
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: don't want to lead the world's fourth largest economy. It's
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: surprising how many people have taken a pass on that seat.
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: Well, you know, maybe some of those names you listed
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: have more of an accurate sense of their chances of winning.
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: I mean, if Kamala Harris ran for that and lost,
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: I think she'd be forever done in politics in any way.
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: I mean, it helps her to.
• 25:05
  Speaker 3: Be Richard Nixon.
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: Richard Nixon lost to California governor's racing, became president within
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: six years.
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: I know we didn't. So you're saying we won't have
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: Kamala Harris to kick around anymore with, are you good
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: Democratic cloth code? Yeah? I do think that it's going
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: to shake out, and I think that one of them
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: will leave, And I don't know if it'll be pressure
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: or polling or Tom Steyer really thinks he's going to
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: be governor.
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: I think Cash Patel is going to get Eric Swawall
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: the nomination if they go and leak that file about
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: his in a weird way, that will you know, if
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: he becomes a quote target of the Trump administration, right,
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: it probably helps him in that primary.
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Also, but also the voters aren't paying attention and
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: they're turned off by it. I mean, I think I
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: don't sense that the voters are paying attention.
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: How about the fact that Gavin Newsom doesn't seem to
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: have an heir apparent and has no in Tristan. And
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: I don't know if any of them would want Gavin's
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: endorsement out.
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: There, which is odd republic I mean, Democratic front runner,
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: but wouldn't even have a positive effect in the race.
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: Right now, you know this gets too I know it's
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: your show, but let me segue here. So if the
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: Democrats gained power of this.
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: Is like being back in the days when I used
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: to have Tom Broke on Meet the Press. It would
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: be like, are you going to anchor meet the press?
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: You know? You know I always said, you know, Tom
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: was a okay passenger, that he always be instinctively wanting
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: to grab the wheel, right, But go ahead, go ahead.
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: Well, I could ask you how to question to plug
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: my later show. How to know what I wanted to
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: ask you was interesting and important for them and everyone.
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: Should the Democrats gain power, but what are the things
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: they want to do. I know, on the national scene,
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: it's save our democracy. But what are the things in
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: the Senate. There've been a couple of gigantic bills. Corey
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: Booker wants spend seven trillion dollars to give tax cuts
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: to everyone except the rich.
• 27:02
  Speaker 3: That would be.
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: A rather bad program. Chris van Holland has a similar,
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: smaller program, but a thing that has gain steam because
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: we're told, and I think it's true that this is
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: the affordability moment and election is There are different words
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: for it, surveillance pricing, predatory pricing, predictive pricing. This is
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: the technology, very simple technology that you could change the
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: price based on a lot of different things.
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: Look, I want to get into this a minute, but
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: I actually want to get at the at this specific
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: So if Democrats get Congress and they have a Donald
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: Trump as president for two years, and this is a
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: question that I've had a lot of Democrats freeze up
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: on me when I ask them this question, do you
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: try to pass legislation with Donald Trump?
• 27:52
  Speaker 3: How can you answer?
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: There is a real the base won't be excited if
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: you know they negotiate with Donald Trump. You know, and
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: yet I'll give you an I'll give you an item
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: that I think you could get Jade Vanson to support,
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: but I don't know if they would want to help
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: jd Vance potentially help his presidential campaign, and that is
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: the childcare tax credit.
• 28:18
  Speaker 3: Right, that is.
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: Something that Vance and could get Trump to support. That
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: a lot of a lot of sort of main you know,
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: sort of the There was plenty of Republican opposition to it, right,
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: But this is one of the areas where there is
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: some there is some agreement between sort of one wing
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: of the Democratic Party and one wing of the Republican Party.
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: But to me, I think that's the hardest. I think
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: that's the hardest thing. Forget what they're going to do
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: when in office. Do you want your bill signed by
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: Donald Trump? And are you going to be comfortable if
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: you pass things that Donald Trump likes?
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: Hey, listen, I don't want my money signed by Donald Trump,
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: but I'll still spend it, you know what I'm saying.
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: How can you get into office and say so, we
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: are such an alternative to the do nothing Republicans and
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: we're going to prove it by doing nothing. So there's
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: a number of people in their constituency who really want
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: to do something there's some who look at they know
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: that the map's not going to be as good as
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: it was in twenty six and actually working with Republicans
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: and being bipartisan will be rewarded. There's a bunch that,
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: you know, Democrats tend to be more policy wonks. They
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: actually are excited to get some things done. You add
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: that all up. I think that the we need to
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: do nothing to make a point or to not give
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: JD or Donald a win. I think that's a small caucus.
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: Of course, you know, just a small faction can have devastating,
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: outsized impacts.
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: I was just going to say, I don't disagree that
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: it's a small faction, but I think the loudest voices
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: in the world we occupy right in new media are
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: going to be one. And don't forget you're going to
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: have presidential candidates on the trail. That's the other thing.
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: You're going to have presidential candidates who are going to
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: do nothing but piss on Washington, right, and they're going
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: to look for opportunities to run against those that establishment
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: crowd whatever it is. So I think we are absolutely
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: going to see nothing get done if there's a democratic
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: Now some might argue that's what they want, right, just
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: paralysis is better than giving anything.
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: They'll two investigations, they'll count that as the thing.
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: But I think that will be the highest profile stuff,
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: and it won't be It won't be Trump administration officials
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: who will all hide under executive privilege. But I'll tell you,
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: and I've told this to my friends in the business
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: community when they ask me, what should we be telling
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: our business that the you know, corporations who are trying
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: to figure out what's happening, why, I said, be prepared
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: for lots of subpoenas, because because congressional Democrats aren't going
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: to be able to get these Trump officials to answer
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: subpoenas because they'll all hide behind executive privilege and finding
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: out what these deals were that were cut with the
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: administration and all this stuff. But the private sector doesn't
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: get to hide behind executive privilege. And I have a
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: feeling that the most high profile impact of a Democratic
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: Congress is going to be that.
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I would think that there are a number of
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: Democrats who would say, we'll have done our job if
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: our investigations by the time we're done lead in two
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: years to subpoena's credible subpoenas of Elon Musk. That's a
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: big target. He's subpoenable based on his.
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: Beach entire AI all the Tech I mean, I think
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: they're coming after Tech in a big way.
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: Well, this is with them. I don't know that Tech
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: has committed crimes, but you know, there's a plausible case
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: that Musk has with how he you know, his website
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: which would only register, which would crash if you wanted
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: to register as a Democrat. And even guys like Stephen
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: Miller I think are subpoenable, Not that he'll answer.
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: I think he's not that act privilege. He's in the
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: West Wing. Yeah, I think he absolutely hides behind executive privilege.
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: But investigations that show that. You know, he went to
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: California officials and said, forget due process and forget reasonableok
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: cause just go to parking lots of home depots. I
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: mean he did say that, or he allegedly or has
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: been reported to have said that.
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: Now surveillance price. Okay, I know you're you're obsessed about this.
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: Let me tell you a fun Let me tell you
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: a fun little nugget I got on this. I had
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: interviewed Brad Carson, former Democratic congressman from Oklahoma who's essentially
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: the front person for the anthropic AI super Pac, meaning
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: the AI super pac that is pro regulation versus the
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: open AI superPAC. Right, you know, there's all this money
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: flowing around. So we were I threw this in there
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: and he told me. He says, well, I thank good.
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: Now we were talking about AI regulation and I said
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: why you're pro and he says, yes, and I want
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: to see the states regulate. And he gave me an example.
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: He goes, I'm a subscriber to the Washington Post and
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: thanks to the law New York, you know, I really
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: you know, which said that you know this has been
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: done with surveillance pricing. You know essentially that he was
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: being and that was his way of using an example
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: why it's good if the state's way in and in
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: one state law could actually help people living in other states.
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: In one regulatory decision by New York to force disclosure
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: on surveillance pricing at least gave a consumer in Oklahoma
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: an opportunity to find out what this was all about.
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: So yeah, I like Brek Carson. By the way, I
• 33:34
  Speaker 2: think his heart is actually in it. He's not just
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: taking a gig he's a former secret under Secretary of
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: the Army and ran University of Tulsa for a while.
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: I've had him on my show, not even mad. I
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: think he's a straight shooter. And you know, back back
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: in a time when you could get elected as a
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: Democrat from Oklahoma, maybe that time will come again. So
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: the deal with surveillance pricing, which, depending on how much
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: you like it or hate it, is called dynamic pricing.
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: That seems good the stores, the retailers call it dynamic pricing.
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: And I think the.
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: Remember dynamic scoring. Remember that phenomenon in Congressional Budget Office.
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: Oh right, yes, yes, no no no.
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: So tax cuts, no, no, no, dynamic scoring. The debt
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: doesn't go up, it goes down with dynamic scoring.
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: For the first time ever, an accountant gets accused of
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: dynamism worth a dynamic duo, meaning he has the pencil
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: and I have the ice shade.
• 34:24
  Speaker 3: Anyway, dynamic scoring, dynamic price pricing.
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: Surveillance pricing, predatory pricing, you could change that's if you
• 34:31
  Speaker 2: hate it, you call it predatory pricing. And if you
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: adopt a bill or propose a bill like Letitia James
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: in New York and McMorrow is campaigning on this in Michigan.
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: You talk about the egregious example. So McMorrow always talks
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: about if you go to book an uber but your
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: phone shows that it's under five percent battery, it boosts
• 34:55
  Speaker 2: the price because it knows you're desperate. No one likes that.
• 34:58
  Speaker 2: That's pretty bad. But another aspect of dynamic pricing, and
• 35:02
  Speaker 2: this made the front page of the New York Post,
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: is Wendy's was charging more for hamburgers at noon than
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: they were at eleven. And I got to say, all
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: this to me is is a discount for the eleven
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: o'clock hamburg.
• 35:15
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that doesn't bother me. That's not to me.
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: That's different because in theory everybody's eligible for the discount.
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: But what about the prices. Here's another one, the prices
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: on store shelves. That there are a lot of bills
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: in different legislators that would illegalize electronic price tags, like
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: what is this nineteen seventy eight because the idea is
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: you could use dynamic pricing. And what they always say
• 35:40
  Speaker 2: is charge two people different things. And I guess the
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: people who are against this all Democrats, think that it
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: is just inherently bad to charge two people different things.
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: But this is what the circulars and discounts and even
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: be longing to Sam's Club gives you. Right, different people
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: have different things. The classic example that the retailers use
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: is if the bananas are going bad, we could price
• 36:05
  Speaker 2: them at ten cents a pound instead of thirty five
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: cents a pound, and essentially we might even be taking
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: a loss. But what we're really doing is incentivizing the
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: shopper to take the bananas home with them instead of
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: us putting it in a compost team. So there's so
• 36:17
  Speaker 2: much about dynamic pricing that's just modern and that actually
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: just helps everyone and is being thought of as a boogeyman.
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: And there are bills, literally bills in front of Congress
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: that would eliminate the banana pricing scheme. And I identify
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: this as though the outrageous examples concentrate the mind. I
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: think that if you just publicize them, my libertarian instincts
• 36:41
  Speaker 2: would say that the companies wouldn't want to be associated
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: with them. I think of it as so if affordability
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: is the issue, it's very hard for Democrats not to
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: jump on this trend. But are they really improving things
• 36:54
  Speaker 2: for the media and voter and consumer.
• 36:56
  Speaker 3: That's a look.
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: I think it all depends and what you're putting your
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: throwing into this bucket of what we're going to call
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: surveillance pricing or whatever. I think the where I the
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: problem I have is what the airlines want to do,
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: which is use the data, use the data that I
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: have voluntarily given them against me to price some things, right,
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: and that is wait a minute, you know, so now
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: it looks like now I'm almost regretting ever becoming a
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: frequent flyer because I've given them so much information that
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: you know, they now every time I book, they know
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: certain things and I'm going to get quoted a price.
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: You know, they know where I'm They can look at
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: my history to know how price sensitive I am on
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: various things and various routes and how and so the
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: I think it's how the how the data you've handed
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: over to them, if that's being used to inform your
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: individual price. I think when you're saying floating price based
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: on supply and demand, that seems very normal, fair part
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: of the free market economy. When you're changing price based
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: on what you think an individual will do, that feels
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: a little bit.
• 38:12
  Speaker 3: That feels like you're bordering on discrimination. Well, if you.
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: Write the bill narrowly so it doesn't go through broad
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: I guess I support it, but't I listen to the
• 38:22
  Speaker 2: rhetoric of Greg Caesar and Luhan of New Mexico and
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: the and Letitia James, and this is not what they're saying.
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: They're not allowing I never hear the clause, and I
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: listen of now. Of course we understand that businesses it's
• 38:37
  Speaker 2: not just in their ability, but helps the business stay
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: afloat and also helps the consumer dev different prices at
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: different times. They're just all seen as a boogeyman, and
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: in this moment of affordability above all else, it's tantalizing
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: to reach for. I also don't know do voters really
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: reward you for these small, bore quality of life improvements.
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: When Biden tried maybe this was messaging jump.
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: Fees, it was weirdly popular. Though it pulls well.
• 39:09
  Speaker 2: It does ask people the question flat out, you want
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: to pay more or less? They'll say less. But does
• 39:14
  Speaker 2: it really accrue to the statesman who is there and
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: trying to fight for you in a big way. Maybe
• 39:21
  Speaker 2: on the smaller level it will. I don't think this
• 39:24
  Speaker 2: is I am suspicious. I understand why Democrats are reaching
• 39:27
  Speaker 2: for I don't think that it is the killer blow
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: that some think it is.
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: I don't think it's a killer blow, but I do
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: believe if you're always seen on the side of the
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: consumer right, not thinking of this as voter, and if
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: you want to have a conversation with people that are
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: just not in your tribe but are actually members of
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: other tribes, then I think.
• 39:52
  Speaker 3: It's a way in. Again.
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: Look, I believe this. I think part of the news
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: media's trust issue is on the national level, we don't
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: think of ourselves as consumer advocates very often. Local news
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: actually used to be. That was the differentiator. Your local
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: news operation was much more of a consumer advocate than
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: and I think gutting And I've always said when we
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: gutted local news, we actually gutted the first line of
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: trust defense, meaning because the local news operators were the
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: consumer advocates finding out who was getting scammed and hey
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: there's some bad phone calls right, always section on you
• 40:33
  Speaker 1: that it gave actually media a little bit more trust generally.
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: So I agree it's not a single killer app issue,
• 40:41
  Speaker 1: but I actually think anytime you're caught being a consumer advocate.
• 40:45
  Speaker 3: You're gaining trust.
• 40:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and if you agree with us, we'll also send
• 40:49
  Speaker 2: you a copy of the fight back theme song that
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: was the other David Horowitz show from the eighties. True,
• 40:57
  Speaker 2: then again, and.
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: Then David Horowitz became a a huge right winger.
• 41:01
  Speaker 3: Remember different guy?
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: Was it a different There were two, there, weren't I
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: remember being very confused, Wait a minute, right.
• 41:10
  Speaker 2: What are we fighting back?
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: In fact, I think the right wing David Horrowitz became
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: more prominent.
• 41:16
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, and he the right wing David Horror or
• 41:18
  Speaker 2: Whitz started off as an extreme left wing you know,
• 41:21
  Speaker 2: smashed the state guy, as is often the arc. I also,
• 41:24
  Speaker 2: I do wonder, though, if the idea of the local
• 41:27
  Speaker 2: news and the tip off to a ripoff is of
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: a piece with an older era where Chuck Schumer would
• 41:33
  Speaker 2: have a press conference every week at a gas station
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: and talk about exactly these issues, but he also knew
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: that he could get coverage of it. And now what
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: are we really paying attention to? Do you think there's
• 41:45
  Speaker 2: going to be a ripoff talk? A shame on you talk?
• 41:48
  Speaker 2: Do you think this is going to be a predatory
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: pricing talk? I don't know that these are the issues
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: that are grabbing our attention these days.
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: No, but it is a piece of the larger issue
• 41:58
  Speaker 1: that we have less control and that somehow we've given
• 42:01
  Speaker 1: tech too much control of things in general. So I
• 42:05
  Speaker 1: think it's a piece of something bigger. That's why I
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: think it resonates.
• 42:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think MGP. I think Marie lucikan Perez
• 42:12
  Speaker 2: is the ultimate example of someone who's very much on
• 42:15
  Speaker 2: the side of consumer and she's mostly associated with the
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: ability to fix your own washing machine, and that's her
• 42:20
  Speaker 2: brand and it helps her. So yeah, that would be
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: an example of where some of it does break through.
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: I wonder, I mean, if the Republican Party didn't go
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: as crazy as it did, I had wondered for a
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: long time, might she defect because she seems very very
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: upset with the Democrats and often is. If you hear
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: three Democrats voted against the bill and she's.
• 42:38
  Speaker 3: Of from one.
• 42:41
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  Speaker 3: I am and maybe this is the poly in me.
• 44:35
  Speaker 1: I am hopeful that what Kevin Kylie did when he
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: decided to put an eye next to his name and
• 44:40
  Speaker 1: leave the Republican Party. You know, I think that if
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: you told me MGP decided to become an I and
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: then you know, look, I'm pretty fluent and certainly I
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: converse a lot with the folks in the Forward space,
• 44:58
  Speaker 1: the Andrew Yang World, Christy Weapons involved, and and you know,
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: they're they're trying they're sort of fighting a two front war,
• 45:06
  Speaker 1: right one is they're trying to improve batlet access for
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: independent candidates. And you know, and that's a that's the
• 45:11
  Speaker 1: thing you kind of have, that's almost like a that's
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: the long game. The short game is they're looking to
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: do a better version of what problem Solvers and no
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: Labels tried to do and didn't do it very well,
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: which is create a caucus of independent thinkers whatever that
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: is independent Dems, independent ours, independent independence, right that collectively
• 45:33
  Speaker 1: vote together on leadership elections and and become the folkrum
• 45:38
  Speaker 1: like in the Senate if you just got you know,
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: take Dan Osborne, right, the thing that's keeping him from
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: winning that Senate race is the fact that he you know,
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: it's you know, it's he's going to be a vote
• 45:50
  Speaker 1: for Schumer.
• 45:50
  Speaker 3: He's going to be a vote for Democrats.
• 45:51
  Speaker 1: So how does he convince the voters that he's not
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: a vote for Schumer and that he's not a vote
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: for Democrats?
• 45:57
  Speaker 3: Right?
• 45:58
  Speaker 1: You know, if he's working with you know, if his
• 46:01
  Speaker 1: answer is I'm going to work with Lisa, I'm going
• 46:02
  Speaker 1: to Lisa Murkowski, and I'm going to you know, Bernie
• 46:07
  Speaker 1: Sanders and Lisa Murkowski and Angus King and you know,
• 46:12
  Speaker 1: and John Curtis in Utah, you know, you sort of
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: and I'm you know, I'm going to try to forge
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: an independ I refuse to have to pick between Donald
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: Trump and Chuck Schumer. You're not going to make me
• 46:22
  Speaker 1: pick here because I actually think my election is going
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: to create an opening with to work with a whole
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: bunch of independence and will make the two parties court
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: us to decide who should get the majority. But until
• 46:38
  Speaker 1: we have that breakthrough, that's what makes it I think
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: tough in these independent Senate campaigns.
• 46:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that the the structure of it. Yeah,
• 46:49
  Speaker 2: I think that it's structurally tough. I think that our
• 46:52
  Speaker 2: politics is sclerotic and it doesn't it doesn't at all
• 46:57
  Speaker 2: comport with our media and our attention. And I think
• 47:00
  Speaker 2: that there's been a bigger there hasn't ever been a
• 47:03
  Speaker 2: bigger mismatch in our lifetime. It's like we're running analog
• 47:07
  Speaker 2: politics with next gen digital. Not just this goes to
• 47:13
  Speaker 2: how we think about the world.
• 47:15
  Speaker 1: Well, this goes to whether it's it's infrastructure right to
• 47:18
  Speaker 1: improve the small de democratic infrastructure like online voting or
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: you know, doing things like this, like we haven't modernized
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: the infrastructure of politics to match the needs of today.
• 47:31
  Speaker 1: Just like you know, i'd argue our constitution needs updated,
• 47:34
  Speaker 1: doesn't need we don't need to redo it. But there
• 47:37
  Speaker 1: are a few things that like, Okay, that's sort of
• 47:39
  Speaker 1: that doesn't work anymore, and we kind of need this,
• 47:41
  Speaker 1: like the pardon power. I'm really into this constitutional amendment
• 47:45
  Speaker 1: that's been introduced in the House that gives Congress the
• 47:48
  Speaker 1: ability to essentially overturn a part presidential pardon using sort
• 47:52
  Speaker 1: of but realizing it has to be a constitutional amendment.
• 47:55
  Speaker 1: And I actually think the parameters they created, which was
• 47:58
  Speaker 1: it has to be a super majority to do it.
• 48:00
  Speaker 1: This stuff feels very founding fatherlike oh, sort of like okay,
• 48:04
  Speaker 1: and the type of modernization that probably is necessary out
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: of you know, for the life of me, I don't
• 48:09
  Speaker 1: know why there's soul why an individual was given pardon
• 48:13
  Speaker 1: power by a bunch of people who were afraid of
• 48:15
  Speaker 1: a king. But needless to say that I did happen.
• 48:18
  Speaker 2: You know from reading the history. It was a huge
• 48:20
  Speaker 2: compromise and didn't really conceptualize what the president would be.
• 48:25
  Speaker 2: I give them a lot of leeway. Those guys in
• 48:28
  Speaker 2: those wigs, drinking the weak beer they were made.
• 48:30
  Speaker 3: It was pretty good.
• 48:31
  Speaker 1: What they did come up with has been yes, right,
• 48:34
  Speaker 1: they were reinfected. They didn't think you know, remember our
• 48:38
  Speaker 1: first constitution didn't even last a decade, so so pretty good.
• 48:42
  Speaker 2: Thing is the moment it's so hard to amend the Constitution,
• 48:45
  Speaker 2: and the moment to amend the Constitution is a post
• 48:48
  Speaker 2: Watergate moment when everyone realizes, oh my god, that went
• 48:51
  Speaker 2: horribly wrong. And I don't think we're going to have that.
• 48:54
  Speaker 2: I don't think we're going to have that in twenty
• 48:56
  Speaker 2: twenty eight. I don't think we're going to have But I.
• 48:58
  Speaker 3: Think by twenty four.
• 49:01
  Speaker 1: You know, if you look at the eras when we
• 49:03
  Speaker 1: have done multiple constitutional amendments in a ten year period,
• 49:07
  Speaker 1: they have happened after huge moments.
• 49:10
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 49:10
  Speaker 1: We had a period around the Civil War. We had
• 49:13
  Speaker 1: a period essentially in the industrial right, the Industrial Revolution
• 49:18
  Speaker 1: and the pushback on that. That's why we got direct
• 49:20
  Speaker 1: election of senators when suffrage the ability to tax.
• 49:26
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 49:26
  Speaker 1: So, you know, do I think it's twenty twenty eight? No,
• 49:30
  Speaker 1: But do I think remember all of those constitutional amendments
• 49:33
  Speaker 1: that passed.
• 49:34
  Speaker 3: Were like introduced twenty years earlier. Right.
• 49:36
  Speaker 1: It is one of those things that it does take.
• 49:38
  Speaker 1: You know, it takes time to do it, and you know,
• 49:41
  Speaker 1: I think we will eventually get there. Hey, let me,
• 49:45
  Speaker 1: are you an MBA fan?
• 49:47
  Speaker 2: I am, in fact.
• 49:48
  Speaker 1: Okay, because I thought this would be a good way
• 49:52
  Speaker 1: for us to close.
• 49:53
  Speaker 3: We're buttoning up here in.
• 49:55
  Speaker 2: The forty five close seven times during the interview shop.
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah you have you keep trying to get out. That's
• 50:00
  Speaker 1: really the sneaky little thing. I have this annual conversation
• 50:05
  Speaker 1: with a whole group of friends of mine, and it
• 50:07
  Speaker 1: always happens at the same time a year. Why Why
• 50:11
  Speaker 1: during March madness do I end up realizing how much
• 50:14
  Speaker 1: I hate the NBA sucks.
• 50:16
  Speaker 3: NBA regular season sucks, and.
• 50:18
  Speaker 1: It's like it like it always just it's a stark
• 50:23
  Speaker 1: reminder that like the NBA has a massive regular season problem.
• 50:27
  Speaker 1: I'll say this both as a fan of basketball and
• 50:29
  Speaker 1: as a gambler. Okay, I enjoy gambling. I know that's
• 50:33
  Speaker 1: not popular to say that, but I.
• 50:35
  Speaker 2: It's not popular to say that it's popular to do it,
• 50:37
  Speaker 2: that is exactly.
• 50:39
  Speaker 1: But I also want I also believe in honest I
• 50:42
  Speaker 1: want to gamble honestly, meaning if you know, I don't
• 50:46
  Speaker 1: gamble on the NBA because I don't believe every team
• 50:48
  Speaker 1: is trying every night, and if I know that people
• 50:51
  Speaker 1: aren't trying, then I don't want to. I'm not risking
• 50:53
  Speaker 1: my money on something that is that is that is
• 50:55
  Speaker 1: not going to be that is not going to match
• 50:59
  Speaker 1: with the DA indicates generally it should match right. And
• 51:05
  Speaker 1: I don't know, but I think the NBA has a
• 51:07
  Speaker 1: massive regular season problem. And I don't know how they should,
• 51:11
  Speaker 1: how they're going to fix it, but I think they've
• 51:13
  Speaker 1: got to fix it. I'm embarrassed about the Wizards, you know,
• 51:17
  Speaker 1: but if they're not alone here with this tanking mess,
• 51:20
  Speaker 1: but it really has made the NBA is useless to watch.
• 51:22
  Speaker 1: When a tanking team is playing anybody, it doesn't matter
• 51:25
  Speaker 1: if they're playing Wenby or if they're playing you know,
• 51:27
  Speaker 1: it is baseball. Yeah, think about baseball, baseball, whatever you
• 51:33
  Speaker 1: think of baseball in September, of the teams that are eliminated,
• 51:36
  Speaker 1: those players try hard because they.
• 51:38
  Speaker 2: Want to call up and it's their slot.
• 51:40
  Speaker 3: Yeah right.
• 51:41
  Speaker 1: And somehow in the NBA, I mean literally, you have
• 51:44
  Speaker 1: the Wizards. As soon as a player does well that
• 51:46
  Speaker 1: he gets benched. Yes, I mean literally, the coaches get
• 51:49
  Speaker 1: involved to do this, and I do think it's screwed
• 51:51
  Speaker 1: up the product. And I do think the NCAA Tournament
• 51:54
  Speaker 1: always becomes this moment to remind people, oh yeah, boy time.
• 52:00
  Speaker 1: I can't wait for the NBA playoffs because We're literally
• 52:02
  Speaker 1: at the crappiest time of year to watch the NBA.
• 52:05
  Speaker 2: Right so my counters, I don't know if they're counters.
• 52:08
  Speaker 2: And by the way, this would make a great how to.
• 52:10
  Speaker 2: You should come on my new show how to Fix
• 52:12
  Speaker 2: the NBA. And I don't have a good answer that this.
• 52:15
  Speaker 2: We need question askers, so you would ask, how how
• 52:18
  Speaker 2: do I fix the How do I gamble correctly and
• 52:20
  Speaker 2: do this?
• 52:21
  Speaker 1: And I want to get I enjoy? Well, put it
• 52:24
  Speaker 1: this way, the NCAA Tournament's been great. This has been
• 52:27
  Speaker 1: great college basketball. By the way, a reminder, money can't
• 52:30
  Speaker 1: improve things creating financial incentives to you know, we have
• 52:34
  Speaker 1: some of the most competitive basketball and improved quality that
• 52:39
  Speaker 1: we've had in thirty years. This feels like the eighties again,
• 52:42
  Speaker 1: how good college basketball is right now.
• 52:44
  Speaker 2: So I'm a huge Saint John's fan. Without Mike Ropole
• 52:47
  Speaker 2: of vitamin water and some horses injecting tens of million
• 52:51
  Speaker 2: dollars into that franchise to get Patino in to pay players,
• 52:54
  Speaker 2: they'd be regular old, probably not even going to make
• 52:56
  Speaker 2: the tournament. Saint John's. I agree with you on an il.
• 52:59
  Speaker 2: I definitely think they need a bunch of reforms, like
• 53:01
  Speaker 2: you need to know how much the players will play.
• 53:03
  Speaker 3: You need to know that everybody's following the same rules.
• 53:06
  Speaker 2: Yes, we need to We need to know what the
• 53:07
  Speaker 2: market is. It screws of the players. It's opaque, it's
• 53:10
  Speaker 2: not working for anyone except the agents. Would you rather
• 53:13
  Speaker 2: have It's almost unfair because the NBA is a one
• 53:17
  Speaker 2: and done situation. So that's unbelievably exciting. But it's a
• 53:21
  Speaker 2: six yes, sorry, March madness is that's a six game tournament,
• 53:25
  Speaker 2: and not only for money and attention, but even for
• 53:29
  Speaker 2: the actual the actual pace of play and how sophisticated
• 53:35
  Speaker 2: these guys are. You want longer series in the NBA,
• 53:38
  Speaker 2: not by being selfish and trying to milk the fans.
• 53:40
  Speaker 2: Long series where teams get to know each other and
• 53:43
  Speaker 2: get to know each other's every move are amazing. They're great.
• 53:47
  Speaker 2: So I'd rather have an NBA where people are trying,
• 53:51
  Speaker 2: where teams are trying, than an NCAAA which gins up
• 53:55
  Speaker 2: this March madness excitement because of the one and done
• 53:59
  Speaker 2: nature of the tournament. In fact, I think the tournament
• 54:01
  Speaker 2: itself is this great product and people don't view ANDCAA
• 54:05
  Speaker 2: basketball is this great product they do a little bit lately,
• 54:08
  Speaker 2: people are interested in the freshitt better.
• 54:10
  Speaker 1: Oh, I think it's quality of play. Look, March Madness
• 54:15
  Speaker 1: kept the conversation about the crappiness of college basketball over
• 54:18
  Speaker 1: the last twenty years at Bay because the tournament was
• 54:21
  Speaker 1: still good, right, even if the team, even if we
• 54:23
  Speaker 1: saw a lot of just crappy games.
• 54:25
  Speaker 2: The tournament is a great product. Absolutely, it's great marketing.
• 54:29
  Speaker 2: Gambling helps and one and done in Jack says Trauma
• 54:33
  Speaker 2: into it.
• 54:33
  Speaker 1: I would argue that the improved the fact that you
• 54:37
  Speaker 1: have players now staying longer. Right, anybody under six to
• 54:39
  Speaker 1: six isn't isn't leaving to go play in Europe anymore.
• 54:42
  Speaker 1: They're staying here because they can make the same money
• 54:44
  Speaker 1: here that they could make playing in Turkey or France
• 54:47
  Speaker 1: or whatever. So you've got you know, you've got these
• 54:50
  Speaker 1: veteran teams, right, So you've got just in the same
• 54:54
  Speaker 1: way four year point guards were the key to winning
• 54:57
  Speaker 1: the tournament in the eighties. Four year point guards again
• 55:00
  Speaker 1: become important in the NCBA. So I think that in
• 55:04
  Speaker 1: that sense, let me throw an idea at you.
• 55:06
  Speaker 3: It at the NBA.
• 55:08
  Speaker 1: So look, I hear you on a seven game series
• 55:10
  Speaker 1: there's nothing like it for the NBA Finals and for
• 55:12
  Speaker 1: the conference finals. But you know, baseball would have a
• 55:17
  Speaker 1: bigger problem about the Dodgers if it wasn't for the
• 55:19
  Speaker 1: fact that they have a five game series in their playoffs.
• 55:22
  Speaker 2: Because it introduces randomness, correct, and if you had a
• 55:26
  Speaker 2: little bit more randomness in the NBA in that first round.
• 55:29
  Speaker 1: Now, remember they used to have it two out of
• 55:31
  Speaker 1: three was a bad idea. They tried that once and
• 55:33
  Speaker 1: eliminated the Lakers in the first round. That was a
• 55:35
  Speaker 1: disaster for them, so they quickly got rid of that.
• 55:38
  Speaker 1: I remember this back in bream was heard. But like
• 55:41
  Speaker 1: they loose to the Rockets at are two out of
• 55:43
  Speaker 1: three the year after they win the title, it.
• 55:45
  Speaker 3: Was just screw it.
• 55:45
  Speaker 2: Eighties.
• 55:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but a five game series in the first round
• 55:50
  Speaker 1: and allowing some randomness in the first round. My thesis
• 55:54
  Speaker 1: is those nine, ten to eleven teams. You know, I'm
• 56:00
  Speaker 1: not a big fan of the play in as much
• 56:02
  Speaker 1: I get why they tried it, But instead of doing
• 56:04
  Speaker 1: the play in, I'd rather see the five game first
• 56:06
  Speaker 1: round series because it then makes the eighth seed and
• 56:09
  Speaker 1: seven seed worth having as it is, and you might
• 56:13
  Speaker 1: get more nine through twelve teams who are deciding do
• 56:17
  Speaker 1: I tank or not. You're not beating You're not going
• 56:19
  Speaker 1: to win a one You're not going to beat a
• 56:21
  Speaker 1: one seed in a seven game series. It's happened once
• 56:23
  Speaker 1: or twice, but it mostly doesn't. But you could do
• 56:26
  Speaker 1: it in a five game and then suddenly that's an
• 56:30
  Speaker 1: incentive to get.
• 56:30
  Speaker 3: Into the playoffs.
• 56:32
  Speaker 1: Just like in baseball, the eighty eight win team that
• 56:36
  Speaker 1: sneaks in with a great pitcher can knock off the
• 56:40
  Speaker 1: one seed in a five game series because that pitcher
• 56:42
  Speaker 1: can pitch twice.
• 56:44
  Speaker 2: And I know that's exciting, but I don't know that
• 56:46
  Speaker 2: that's fair. Just on the baseball side of things. I
• 56:49
  Speaker 2: used to analogize it too. There was a lot of
• 56:52
  Speaker 2: there was a lot of discussion about if college admissions
• 56:55
  Speaker 2: were fair or not fair, and I said, well, what
• 56:58
  Speaker 2: you could do is inject a lot of random, which
• 57:00
  Speaker 2: is your SAT score would just correlate to the number
• 57:03
  Speaker 2: of spots you had on a big prize wheel, and
• 57:05
  Speaker 2: that would be if you got into college. So that
• 57:08
  Speaker 2: would be more I guess fair or random, or it
• 57:10
  Speaker 2: would deprioritize the SATs. But I don't think that would
• 57:14
  Speaker 2: be a fairer system. But what we want in sports
• 57:16
  Speaker 2: is entertainment. So I definitely want to say this one thing.
• 57:20
  Speaker 2: I have a solution, and I have a critique of
• 57:22
  Speaker 2: something you said, you don't bet because you don't know
• 57:24
  Speaker 2: if the teams are trying. That is true. I think
• 57:26
  Speaker 2: you're probably over indexing for the Wizards, who are horrendous
• 57:30
  Speaker 2: on this score, absolutely shameful.
• 57:32
  Speaker 1: I've had to deal with this for three years now.
• 57:34
  Speaker 1: I mean, your best DC could be a great basketball market.
• 57:38
  Speaker 1: It's the NBA, and the Wizards have just been you know, made,
• 57:42
  Speaker 1: they screwed it up.
• 57:43
  Speaker 2: The players, of course always try, but like you say,
• 57:45
  Speaker 2: the management doesn't give you the good players, or they
• 57:47
  Speaker 2: shut you down, or the coaches will pull you out
• 57:51
  Speaker 2: if you weren't you bet. I mean on the Nuggets
• 57:54
  Speaker 2: are playing the Rockets, or the Knicks are playing the Rockets,
• 57:56
  Speaker 2: or the Nuggets are playing the Lakers. These guys are
• 57:58
  Speaker 2: going at it. Let's right, Luca is going at it
• 58:01
  Speaker 2: as hard as he could. I'm seeing Jamal Murray with
• 58:04
  Speaker 2: facial lacerations as he drives down the lane. There is
• 58:07
  Speaker 2: a lot of effort and the way to stop the tanking.
• 58:10
  Speaker 2: It's very interesting because they thought that, well, instead of
• 58:13
  Speaker 2: giving teams the guaranteed number one pick, we'll just give
• 58:16
  Speaker 2: them the highest odds at the number one pick. And
• 58:19
  Speaker 2: I think a behavioral economists will say that will never
• 58:21
  Speaker 2: change behavior. If all you're doing is saying, well, do
• 58:25
  Speaker 2: I have any chance of it? Is it a better
• 58:27
  Speaker 2: chance than everyone else, I'm still going to do it.
• 58:29
  Speaker 2: The downside of tanking isn't that bad what you do.
• 58:32
  Speaker 2: It's a fundamental change. But really, if you think about it,
• 58:35
  Speaker 2: it's fine. It works. It solves a lot of problems.
• 58:38
  Speaker 2: Rotate the number one pick among all thirty two teams
• 58:41
  Speaker 2: in the league, or when we expand thirty five thirty eight,
• 58:45
  Speaker 2: So that's fine. I mean one year Oklahoma City will
• 58:49
  Speaker 2: have it after winning the National Championship and or the
• 58:54
  Speaker 2: NBA Championship, and one year the Spurs will have it
• 58:57
  Speaker 2: after being in last place, as they did when you know,
• 59:00
  Speaker 2: when they picked David Robinson. So if you just do
• 59:03
  Speaker 2: a rotation and then some modification, I don't think teams
• 59:07
  Speaker 2: are jockeying so much to get the three or four
• 59:10
  Speaker 2: or five pick. I think it's a lot better than
• 59:12
  Speaker 2: what we have now. You have to address tanking. Silver
• 59:15
  Speaker 2: I think could lose a job over how bad the
• 59:18
  Speaker 2: tanking issue has become.
• 59:21
  Speaker 1: Well, and the other thing is I think more transparency.
• 59:24
  Speaker 1: I mean, look, it is true. Am I going to
• 59:28
  Speaker 1: see certain players when they come to my city once?
• 59:32
  Speaker 3: Right?
• 59:33
  Speaker 1: When they come to my city once? And then I
• 59:36
  Speaker 1: spend all this money, you know, and then you don't
• 59:39
  Speaker 1: get to see that one star playery you kind of wanted.
• 59:42
  Speaker 3: To see right there. And that's the fact. I mean.
• 59:46
  Speaker 1: They try to mess around with load management by having
• 59:48
  Speaker 1: a mandatory number of games to qualify for rewards and stuff.
• 59:53
  Speaker 1: I don't think that's worked, right. I think we still
• 59:56
  Speaker 1: we still have it, and part of the load management
• 59:59
  Speaker 1: gets it too. This is why I think tinkering with
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 1: the playoffs, where you incentivize making the regular season matter more,
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 1: you've got and I think ultimately, if the regular season
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 1: matters more, you will over time have less handing. And
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 1: I don't know how you do when you allow twenty
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 1: of the thirty teams to make the playoffs, Have you
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 1: made the regular season matter anymore?
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 2: No, it doesn't matter that much. But you know, I'm
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 2: sure you've been watching it for a while. If you
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 2: compare a random second quarter of an NBA game now,
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 2: just the defense that's being pit played to the eighties
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 2: or nineties. I used to think, are they even really trying?
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 2: And they weren't and just go to a quarter defense.
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 1: We know, and I get it, but again I go back,
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 1: baseball doesn't have this problem.
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 2: Well, baseball has a lot of other problems.
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 1: They have other problems. I'm not going to sit there
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 1: and say they don't, but they don't have this problem.
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 1: And they have, you know, even fewer teams that make
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 1: the playoffs in a given year by the way they've
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 1: They have a rule that seems like a pretty simple
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 1: rule on their lottery. If you got the number one pick.
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 3: This year.
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 1: I remember the Nats one year they got the first
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 1: overall pick, and they were ineligible to get the first
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 1: overall the next year. The highest they could get was eleven. Yeah,
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 1: so you know that seemed like a pretty so that way,
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 1: you're not doing the process i e. The sixers where
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 1: you're tanking three years in a row or what the
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 1: Astros did, right that was that was what happened in baseball.
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 1: The Astros did a huge tank job in twenty ten,
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 1: twenty eleven, twenty twelve, which got them to a Correa Bregman,
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 1: you know, and then they ended up, you know, having
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 1: this great run.
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 2: And the Rays were sort of doing a tank job
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 2: except when they weren't. They just didn't want to spend
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 2: any money. But the baseball draft matters a lot less
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 2: than the NBA draft, just for in terms of predictability,
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 2: but also in terms of development. The guys making the
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 2: picks probably if they screw it up too often, won't
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 2: be in the front office years later, whereas in the NBA,
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 2: you know, those are your picks that are that you
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 2: hang on. The GM.
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 3: Well, it's just it's funny. I can't tell you.
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 1: It feels like every April there's this group of friends
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 1: of mine and I we have this argument about God,
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 1: what's wrong with the NBA. And I think part of
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 1: it is, again, it's recency bias. The tournament is so
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 1: much fun, right, and you're just sitting there going, oh,
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 1: there's no urgency and we're at the tail end of
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 1: the season, right, We're at this and so you do
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 1: have that, you know, there's a little bit of let's
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 1: save people a little bit for the playoffs. So it
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 1: is and it's a if I'm the NBA, it's a bummer.
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 1: You've got a whole bunch of people excited about basketball,
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 1: they tune into the pros, and you're not giving them
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 1: nearly the same urgency. And you know, I think it's
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 1: a missed opportunity for the NBA as well.
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 2: I've always thought on that first Thursday of the NCAA tournament,
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 2: which is one of the best days in sports structurally
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 2: the same as the next day, but just wall to
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 2: all games, that the NBA even plays a game or
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 2: two is kind of laughable. It's just sitting itself. Get
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 2: out of the way, paradia failure.
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 1: More importantly, make these Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday of the following
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 1: week some of the best matchups you you know, make
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 1: sure Lakers Celtics, make sure Thunderspurs, make sure, you know,
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 1: have a big prime time, you know, something like counter.
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 1: You know, take advantage of this moment that you have
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 1: on those days.
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that the NBA just has too many
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 2: games in the season, and of course they do, but
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 2: this is what you're going to get. The last ten
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 2: games of the NBA season is always going to be boring.
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 2: If there are more than fifty games in the NBA season, Hey,
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 2: if you want to balm for all of this WNBA.
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 2: They've gone to a forty four game season, but they
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 2: have three game series and it's all tight and taut.
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 2: And though again with the new deal, which I congratulate
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 2: the players for, as more money comes into the league,
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 2: they're gonna want to if they can fill an arena,
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 2: as they will. And that's what's going to happen with
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 2: the WNBA, and they will be grousing about this. We'll
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 2: be saying, oh, the Links always get the number one pick.
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 1: Well, it seemed like in the eighties, don't you remember it,
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 1: like the Lakers and Celtics always ended up with the
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 1: number one pick.
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it was.
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 1: It was just like but somehow the Clippers traded the
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 1: Lakers the number one pick, and you're like.
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 3: How did I mean it was?
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 1: I mean, that's why they had to create the lottery,
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 1: because too many teams were dumping their picks to the
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 1: to the better teams.
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 2: But if there were, if there's ever a counter argument
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 2: to good old days with the sport of basketball in
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 2: the fifties, they had the regional picks, so that the
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 2: this is why, this is why the Celtics got everyone
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 2: who went to a new England Institution, and the draft
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 2: went like fifteen rounds. I don't understand. There were ten
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 2: teams in the league. How are they picking fifteen players?
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 2: Although you know you always hear Dave Debusha a thirteenth
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 2: round pack.
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 1: I know, well, but that NFL was that way. Bart
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 1: Star famously was a seventeenth round pick.
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 2: But seventeen on a roster fifty two versus fifteen on
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 2: a rock.
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 1: Now you only had like twelve, But back then you
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 1: only had like twelve teams, right, right, so it made
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 1: sense that you had you had all these rounds. But
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 1: then again, remember Mike Piazza was famously drafted in like
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 1: the twenty ninth round, and you're like as a favorite.
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 2: Of Tommy Lasorda because their dads were friends or maybe
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 2: just Italian.
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 3: I don't know, that's exactly.
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 1: Well, you've got some technical issues that you're gonna mess.
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 3: With, huh.
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 2: It's just the camera. Somebody like microphone sound great?
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 1: They do, And of my audience, I think I think
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 1: the interviews are more audio. Do you do you know
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 1: the distinction between your audio and your video?
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 2: Yes, it's uni yeah, yeah, And so.
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 1: That it seems like if you don't offer video that's
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 1: an important five. You're you're missing out.
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 2: It is true. It's the cutting edge five, and they're
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 2: gonna I'm gonna lose them to call your daddy.
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 3: I fear.
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 2: Cat plug a couple shows, please, Okay.
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 1: I think I think I'm due to be in our
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 1: Home and Away series. I think I'm due on.
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 3: Your soon and you can't wait. I've got more to
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 3: plug there. I've got a new sports show.
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 2: I do have this show how to I said, we
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 2: can pair you with how to Bet Better, the episode
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 2: that is up right now. So every week we someone
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 2: asks how to question, we get an expert, my friend
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 2: Nate Silver, who I'm sure I don't know if you've
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 2: interviewed him. He's a brilliant thinker and he's a good talker,
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 2: but he uses these filler words like wright and um.
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 2: So this week's episode is how not to say um
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 2: with Nate Silver, and he's not embarrassed about he gets
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 2: created it by the end. Let me tell you. So,
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 2: we've had how to Immigrate as a throut ble to Europe.
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 2: We've had how to be a Ghostbuster. We're doing next
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 2: week how to Talk to My Cats. Some good practical
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 2: advice there I do have cats, so tune into how
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 2: To for You please, aclectic and practical pieces of advice.
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 2: And I thought you want to ask a question?
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 3: Seriously, I love the series and I do hope how
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 3: to fix the NBA? Count me in?
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 1: All right, count me in for that. But by the way,
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 1: the cat, I mean, that's play into algorithms, aren't you?
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 1: That's play into the algorithm? How to talk to cats?
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 2: Except my experts like don't don't try, just operate in
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 2: their world. She's a very good cat expert. The guy
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 2: asking the question said, am I doing it right? My
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 2: cat named mister Bad wakes me up at four thirty
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 2: in the morning and I lock them in the closet.
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 2: Then at six I show them my watch and say
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 2: now it's time for feeding. And it turns out that
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 2: wasn't how to talk to a cat.
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 1: By the way, how do people get your daily newsletter?
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 1: I love it and I find so many fun little
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 1: stories from it.
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 3: Tell people how to get it.
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 2: The gist list is at Mike Pesca dot substack dot
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 2: com and they also have some uh I've been doing
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 2: going some deep diving information on the pit and their background,
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 2: character and.
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 1: Why you're obsessed with all the A holes on pity.
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 1: That's just been a running gag of yours, hasn't it.
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 2: Yes, well I'm keeping the official tracker. You know, you
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 2: gotta have someone doing it.
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 1: I have a I have a submission for the just List.
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 1: You know there's a pencil running for governor of Oregon.
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 1: Oh really a pencil, Yes, a pencil and it actually
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 1: is a series.
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 2: Of running as a writing candidate.
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 3: Hey, there you go. See it just writes itself.
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 2: Is he hoping to come in number two?
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 3: Well?
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 2: Does he believe in carbonas.
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 3: Man?
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 1: This is I had. We did not plan this. I
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 1: just threw it up there and and there it is.
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 1: You know you dad pund it out of the ballpark.
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 2: Make a good point.
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 1: Guess who's lasting reading on K through three the state
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 1: of Oregon?
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 2: Is it?
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 3: Really? Yeah?
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 2: So that's the ire that the Mississippi miracle. Someone has
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 2: to It's.
• 1:08:30
  Speaker 1: Exactly what needs to happen is go learn about you know,
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 1: get hooked on phonics.
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 3: I think we learned. Go get hooked on phonics. It works.
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 2: Found it out people. I love that pencil all.
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 1: Right, anyway, go check out governor pencil. We need that's
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 1: you know, I think people would be happier with inanimate
• 1:08:47
  Speaker 1: objects as our political leaders as it is. So, you know,
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 1: the stapler is next.
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 2: I hope a red stapler that I think has niche appeal.
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 1: Well, the red staples. You have the red staples and
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 1: the blue staples. They don't know what, you know, it
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 1: gets a little fularizing.
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 3: And that's like.
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 2: Third party paper fastener.
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you know the big bulky clip people. You know,
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 1: Mike Paska.
• 1:09:11
  Speaker 3: It's always a pleasure.
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 2: Oh, thank you, Chuck. Pleasure for me too.