Latest / Story Magic / 72 - Sweet and clean romance with Victorine Lieske

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72 - Sweet and clean romance with Victorine Lieske · Story Magic

2:28
Rachel: Hey, writers.
2:28
Rachel: Welcome back to Story Magic, the podcast that will help you write a book you're damn proud of.
2:32
Rachel: I'm Rachel, and today we are talking with a very special guest, Victorine Liske.
2:39
Victorine Lieske: Hello.
2:40
Victorine Lieske: Thank you for having me on.
2:41
Victorine Lieske: I'm so excited.
2:43
Rachel: Me too.
2:44
Rachel: To kick us off, would you mind telling our listeners a little bit about you and your work before we jump into our topic today?
2:52
Victorine Lieske: Absolutely.
2:53
Victorine Lieske: I started writing about 17 years ago, which makes me a dinosaur.
3:00
Victorine Lieske: But it was such a wonderful time to start writing because it took me about four years to get my first book into shape.
3:09
Victorine Lieske: And that's about the time when the Kindle was just taking off and everybody was all excited about this new way to publish and things like that, and doors were opening for authors that had been previously closed to authors.
3:23
Victorine Lieske: And so it was a really exciting time to be starting to publish and learn about all this stuff that we're writers are learning about.
3:35
Victorine Lieske: So it was awesome to publish back then.
3:38
Victorine Lieske: I think it was like 2010 when I published my first book, and about, I would say about eight or nine months after I published it, it had taken off to the point that it hit the New York Times bestseller list.
3:54
Rachel: Wow.
3:54
Victorine Lieske: I know.
3:55
Victorine Lieske: And that's, like, impossible now for indies to do, but they had opened up the ebook list and everything, and it was super exciting, and that was, like, my one book I wanted to write.
4:07
Victorine Lieske: So that happened.
4:09
Victorine Lieske: Some agents started contacting me and saying, do you have anything else?
4:13
Victorine Lieske: Are you going to write anything else?
4:13
Victorine Lieske: I was like, well, maybe I should.
4:19
Victorine Lieske: My start to this whole world was very unique and different than most people.
4:25
Rachel: Yeah. So then did you sign with an agent and start going trad, or are you a hybrid?
4:30
Rachel: What's it like?
4:31
Victorine Lieske: Oh, I did sign with an agent, but the book that I tried to publish with the agent was totally different than my first book because I was a brand new writer and I was like, oh, let's pee in all the pots, you know?
4:44
Rachel: Yeah.
4:46
Victorine Lieske: So I tried writing Sci-Fi and other stuff, and the deal that I got proposed to from it was through Avon publishing.
4:59
Victorine Lieske: They wanted to publish it ebook only, and see how it did and then do print if it did well.
5:07
Victorine Lieske: And my agent said, that's a bad deal, don't take it.
5:12
Victorine Lieske: He said, you can publish the ebook yourself and probably do much better, right?
5:15
Rachel: Better royalties, probably better everything, better control.
5:19
Victorine Lieske: And so that's what I did.
5:20
Victorine Lieske: I published it myself.
5:21
Victorine Lieske: And then I would say my third book really is the one that put me on the map for sweet Romance, because that was my first rom.com that I did, that was sweet romance.
5:33
Victorine Lieske: And that's the one the genre that I really settled on and really started dumping books into and I starting promoting.
5:40
Victorine Lieske: And so after my third book is where I really got my footing in sweet romance.
5:45
Rachel: And sweet romance.
5:46
Rachel: Yeah, you have like a pretty big backlist now.
5:50
Rachel: That's a lot of writing.
5:51
Victorine Lieske: Yes. I have about 30 books out now.
5:54
Victorine Lieske: That's crazy.
5:55
Rachel: Congratulations.
5:56
Rachel: I mean, that's the dream.
5:58
Rachel: That's so cool.
5:59
Rachel: So use this term sweet romance, and this is what we're going to be talking about today because I wanted to call out also clean romance.
6:08
Rachel: And I'm wondering if you think there's a difference between sweet romance and clean romance.
6:13
Rachel: Are they kind of the same?
6:13
Rachel: Like, what's the definition that we're working here for this category of maybe non spicy romance?
6:19
Victorine Lieske: Yes. Yes. That's a great question.
6:21
Victorine Lieske: So sweet romance is a term that was coined by all the publishers when they were trying to, you know, show the spice level of the different books.
6:30
Victorine Lieske: And they were saying, all right, books that just have kisses only.
6:32
Victorine Lieske: Let's call it sweet romance and put it at either zero or half a spice level.
6:38
Victorine Lieske: And then clean kind of came about when Amazon wanted to categorize these.
6:44
Victorine Lieske: Amazon said, well, let's call it clean and wholesome.
6:47
Victorine Lieske: And so that's kind of where Amazon put all of the sweet romance books in that.
6:53
Victorine Lieske: So we get kind of the both of those terms and people kind of don't like either one because really fit super well.
7:01
Victorine Lieske: Sweet sounds like there's no tension.
7:05
Rachel: Like cozy, like a cat.
7:07
Victorine Lieske: Exactly.
7:08
Victorine Lieske: And clean people have this aversion to that word because it implies that sex is dirty, which it's not.
7:14
Victorine Lieske: So, you know, there's no perfect term for it, I would say.
7:19
Victorine Lieske: But those are the main terms that people use when they're talking about the books with just kisses.
7:25
Rachel: Right. Okay. But, like, from an intimacy standpoint, this category is kisses.
7:29
Rachel: Anything more to that might fade to black.
7:31
Rachel: Or are we not even in the fade to black category?
7:33
Rachel: It's just kisses.
7:35
Victorine Lieske: I would say it's a spectrum.
7:37
Victorine Lieske: And there is fade to black on the more spicy side of the spectrum.
7:44
Victorine Lieske: I would say that there are a couple of books where people call it clean romance and they say it's sex just between married couples and it's implied and not on the page.
7:59
Victorine Lieske: Got it.
8:00
Rachel: We have some implicit maybe versus explicit that would only really happen if it was between a married couple.
8:08
Victorine Lieske: Yes.
8:09
Rachel: Yeah, that makes sense.
8:10
Rachel: But you mentioned spectrum.
8:14
Victorine Lieske: Yes.
8:14
Rachel: And I. Are there any.
8:16
Rachel: What's so interesting to me too, is I'm going to loop it back to Amazon for a second is because like, when we had had a prior conversation about spicy romance, Amazon seemed so prominent in determining how these books get labeled that the categories are almost controlled entirely by what Amazon decides to call them.
8:36
Rachel: So it's interesting that you have some of that here, too, where we have sweet or clean and wholesome, and it's kind of just labeled by what Amazon decides to call them.
8:45
Victorine Lieske: Absolutely.
8:46
Rachel: That, like, determines a lot.
8:49
Rachel: Yes.
8:50
Rachel: So are you, are you in this, in this spectrum?
8:50
Rachel: If we're in this category of sweet or we're in this category of clean and wholesome, it can be anywhere in there.
8:59
Rachel: But once we get into more than kisses, a little bit more than spice, it's just romance.
9:05
Victorine Lieske: Yes, exactly.
9:07
Rachel: Yeah. I want to talk to you about marketing in a little bit because so much of self publishing and author business is marketing.
9:18
Victorine Lieske: Absolutely.
9:19
Rachel: Woohoo. Who knew?
9:19
Rachel: But I think I mentioned this too, earlier.
9:25
Rachel: But I write spicy romance.
9:26
Rachel: I write why choose romance?
9:27
Rachel: And so a big part of my self publishing business is being able to know who to talk to.
9:32
Rachel: And I do want to circle back around on that as marketing to this reader group.
9:37
Rachel: But tension, you mentioned tension earlier.
9:40
Rachel: So first I want to talk about tension and conflict because the very first thing that probably comes to mind, and like you said in sweet, is that there's not, but that's not correct.
9:51
Rachel: We still have tension in conflict.
9:53
Victorine Lieske: Absolutely.
9:54
Victorine Lieske: And a lot of the tension is a sexual type tension.
9:58
Victorine Lieske: It's just kept really sweet on the page.
10:01
Victorine Lieske: And so there's not a lot of innuendo.
10:03
Victorine Lieske: There's not a lot of diving deep into that desire that you might have with more steamy romance.
10:11
Victorine Lieske: But it is that the sexual tension is there between the people, and a lot of it is centered around emotions rather than the physical desire.
10:20
Rachel: Yeah, yeah.
10:21
Rachel: So help me out with an example real fast.
10:25
Rachel: This is so silly and simplified, but in like, a spicy romance, you might have a character who looks at another character and is like, damn, I want to climb that character like a tree.
10:35
Rachel: You know, like they're expressing a sexual attraction in that way.
10:40
Rachel: From an emotional standpoint.
10:41
Rachel: Is it more like a want of connection, a want of to be like being loved, or what does that kind of look like in their own internal thoughts?
10:50
Victorine Lieske: So a lot of the times if it's just a first glance at somebody, it's a physical reaction to them, but maybe not expressing that desire to have sex with them, you know, it would be, you know, wow, he looks like he just walked off a movie, you know, like that.
11:08
Rachel: Got it kind of a little.
11:10
Rachel: Maybe a little more high level, a little less detailed, but in a metaphorical way.
11:15
Rachel: Yes.
11:16
Rachel: Yeah, yeah.
11:18
Rachel: Do you find that in these.
11:21
Rachel: In sweet romance, descriptions of, like, a physical nature are still really present, or is it left more to the imagination?
11:31
Victorine Lieske: No, I would say definitely physical descriptions are present and clean and sweet.
11:36
Rachel: Yeah, that makes sense.
11:37
Rachel: Yeah. So how do we build tension and conflict?
11:44
Rachel: I have to say, when I ask you these questions, I do really believe I'm not just trying to direct us towards a conversation about sex, but I.
11:51
Victorine Lieske: No problem.
11:53
Rachel: But we want to build attraction, so how are we building attraction through that tension?
11:58
Rachel: How are we building a romantic attraction with tension, but without crossing that line into increased physical intimacy?
12:08
Victorine Lieske: Yeah, absolutely.
12:10
Victorine Lieske: So a lot of the times in my books, my characters are focused on, like, an end goal.
12:19
Victorine Lieske: So, for example, the book that just came out that I wrote.
12:24
Victorine Lieske: So it's about twins that switch places.
12:27
Victorine Lieske: Right.
12:27
Victorine Lieske: And.
12:28
Victorine Lieske: Yeah, and so my main female character is pretending to be her sister, who happens to be a famous actress.
12:35
Victorine Lieske: Right.
12:36
Victorine Lieske: And she's.
12:37
Victorine Lieske: But my main character has high levels of anxiety and especially when around tons of people.
12:44
Victorine Lieske: And so she has to go to this gala and she has to pretend to be her sister.
12:48
Victorine Lieske: And who does she cling to?
12:48
Victorine Lieske: Well, the next door neighbor, that she gets to go with her.
12:54
Victorine Lieske: Right.
12:54
Victorine Lieske: And so he's her emotional support.
12:57
Victorine Lieske: So in this book, her struggles are, I need to get through this event.
13:03
Victorine Lieske: I need to not fall apart.
13:04
Victorine Lieske: I need to not reveal that I am lying about who I am, you know, and all the while, I'm clinging to this guy that he is becoming my emotional support, and she's also lying to him.
13:17
Victorine Lieske: So she feels terrible about, you know, as she gets to know.
13:20
Victorine Lieske: It was.
13:21
Victorine Lieske: It was fine when she didn't know him to, you know, pretend to be her sister in front of him.
13:25
Victorine Lieske: But now that she's forming an emotional connection with him, it starts to become really difficult for her to keep lying to this guy.
13:34
Victorine Lieske: And so the focus isn't, let's get to the bedroom.
13:38
Victorine Lieske: The focus is, I need to get through this scene.
13:41
Victorine Lieske: I need to get through these things.
13:43
Victorine Lieske: But I am going to hold on to you for my emotional support type of a thing.
13:49
Rachel: Yeah. Do you still find that there's the same.
13:52
Rachel: I imagine so.
13:53
Rachel: But the same type of character resistant beats, like a why not beat or.
13:59
Rachel: There's emotional wounds here that prevent us from falling in love, and we have to overcome those in a pretty standard character arc.
14:07
Victorine Lieske: Yeah, absolutely.
14:08
Victorine Lieske: I think the beats to steamy and sweet are really similar.
14:11
Rachel: Yeah, that was my guess because really, we were kind of talking about this in our conversation with spicy romance.
14:19
Rachel: But so much of spice is to push forward character.
14:23
Rachel: That's why it exists.
14:24
Rachel: But if you removed in that genre, if you removed the spice, it would be a detriment to the story.
14:30
Rachel: But in this, it's the same emotional change.
14:34
Rachel: It's the same question of will they, won't they?
14:37
Rachel: Are we going to overcome our flaws and find love?
14:41
Victorine Lieske: Absolutely.
14:42
Rachel: Yeah. That makes sense.
14:46
Rachel: With, as we're building this emotional tension, as we're building this push and pull, drawing close together, do you find that this is pretty naturally lending towards a slow burn or.
15:02
Victorine Lieske: Yeah, yeah, I think so.
15:04
Victorine Lieske: A lot of my bugs have a kiss at about half the halfway mark, but then after the kiss, there's a huge pullback, usually like, oh, that was a mistake.
15:12
Victorine Lieske: We shouldn't have done that, you know, type of thing.
15:14
Victorine Lieske: And so, yeah, it definitely lends itself to slow burn.
15:17
Rachel: Yeah. So in this case, with our twins, probably a kiss around the midpoint and then the truth hasn't come out yet and you have to backtrack because I'm not who he thinks I am.
15:28
Rachel: Yeah, yeah, that makes sense.
15:30
Rachel: So then as you push forward and progress, do we normally end on another kiss?
15:36
Victorine Lieske: Normally, yes.
15:37
Victorine Lieske: And sometimes there can be some kisses before the big, stressful dark moment, whatever that is.
15:44
Victorine Lieske: Some people don't do a breakup at the dark moment.
15:46
Victorine Lieske: Some people do.
15:48
Victorine Lieske: But whatever you have that's going to break them apart is slowly building throughout.
15:55
Victorine Lieske: So even if you're friendly and are kissing, something still looming behind them, that's going to blow up.
16:03
Rachel: Yeah, that makes sense.
16:04
Rachel: Actually, that leads us really well into kind of my next couple questions here with, we've talked about, like, physical intimacy through kissing and, you know, the development of that.
16:15
Rachel: But I also think at the heart of romance, it's about two people.
16:18
Rachel: So it's not only about, you know, how much are they gonna touch.
16:23
Victorine Lieske: Yes.
16:24
Rachel: So how do you normally go about, like, developing your plots, your characters, the flaws they have, like, the messages you want them to learn?
16:32
Rachel: What's that process like for you?
16:34
Victorine Lieske: So for me, I start with tropes, and that's how I form, like, who my characters are.
16:42
Victorine Lieske: If I want, you know, like a fake marriage trope, then I'm like, okay, well, what's gonna, what's going to be the backstory of why they would need to be fake married, you know, and then I build on that and my characters really, for me, form as I start writing.
16:59
Victorine Lieske: So I'm a pantser.
17:01
Rachel: Me, too.
17:04
Victorine Lieske: So I just, you know, get an idea and try and inform.
17:08
Victorine Lieske: Okay, what is my main tropes?
17:08
Victorine Lieske: And maybe some of my side tropes and kind of try to get to know my character a little bit, but it comes out as I start writing, and things just, you know, uncover come out.
17:24
Victorine Lieske: Yeah, as you write.
17:25
Victorine Lieske: And so, yeah, that's how I do it.
17:27
Rachel: Yeah. Do you have, like, a pretty.
17:29
Rachel: It sounds like, you know, roughly, though, like, where you need, like, a kiss at 50% and a pullback and so you're still holding those things.
17:38
Rachel: You're working towards these beats, but letting it come out.
17:42
Rachel: Yeah, absolutely.
17:44
Rachel: I'm so similar.
17:46
Rachel: Plotting is so boring to me.
17:48
Victorine Lieske: Yes, me too.
17:50
Rachel: You just lose the excitement.
17:52
Victorine Lieske: Yes. Or I'll plot a whole thing out, and then I'll be like, no. My character says, no, never do that.
18:00
Victorine Lieske: And then it's like, I throw the plot out.
18:03
Rachel: Yeah, I stopped outlining a long time ago because of the same.
18:06
Rachel: My characters would just be like, absolutely not.
18:09
Rachel: We're going this way.
18:11
Rachel: And then you feel the pull of, like, oh, no, am I doing it wrong?
18:14
Rachel: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
18:16
Rachel: So. But what are.
18:17
Rachel: What are revisions like for you, then?
18:20
Victorine Lieske: So I have written enough that I, once I get done with, and I'm probably a bad example because I rewrite as I go.
18:29
Victorine Lieske: A lot of people say, don't do that because it's the left side of your brain and the right side of brain arguing or whatever.
18:36
Victorine Lieske: It works for me.
18:37
Victorine Lieske: And so I revise and write as I go.
18:41
Victorine Lieske: So once I get my first draft done is really clean.
18:44
Victorine Lieske: And so I'll go through it one more time, you know, and work on the little just.
18:48
Victorine Lieske: And then the other weird things that pop in there that you're like, I don't need that many.
18:52
Victorine Lieske: That's.
18:53
Victorine Lieske: And then I'll send it off to the editor, and it's pretty much done.
18:57
Rachel: Yeah. That's amazing.
18:58
Rachel: Do I think probably a lot of that, I'm assuming here, but that's my question.
19:03
Rachel: Comes from experience, learning your process, understanding your.
19:07
Rachel: Your genre, your market.
19:09
Rachel: Like, you kind of have it down now.
19:11
Victorine Lieske: Absolutely. Yes. I think so.
19:13
Rachel: Was that.
19:13
Victorine Lieske: I couldn't have done that in the beginning.
19:15
Rachel: Yeah, that was different from the beginning.
19:17
Victorine Lieske: Yes.
19:17
Rachel: Yeah, it was a lot more.
19:18
Rachel: Maybe a trial and error.
19:19
Victorine Lieske: Yes, yes.
19:20
Rachel: Yeah. One of the things we talk about a lot at Golden May and on the story magic podcast is that there is no right way to do it.
19:29
Rachel: Like, you have to just figure out what works for you, and then once you find the path, like, kind of hone in on the path and keep going until it doesn't work for you, and then adapt and figure out what works for you next.
19:41
Victorine Lieske: I love that you say that, because I thought I was doing it wrong for a long time until I met another author who did it my way, and I was like, oh, and she's trad pop, you know?
19:50
Victorine Lieske: And I'm like, I actually am not doing wrong.
19:55
Victorine Lieske: So it felt freeing to be told that, no, you're all right.
20:00
Rachel: It is so freeing.
20:01
Rachel: And that's another reason why I love to have guests like you on the podcast, is because you.
20:06
Rachel: You know, Emily and I. Emily listeners is sick today, so that's why she's not here.
20:10
Rachel: So we're hanging out together.
20:12
Rachel: But Emily, and Emily is a plotter, and I'm a pantser.
20:16
Rachel: And that's lent really well to our business of teaching.
20:20
Rachel: It's not about the process.
20:22
Rachel: It's more about learning what works for you, or it's not about, like, the dichotomy of those two things.
20:28
Rachel: I think most people shift among the spectrum, but you feel like you have to do it a certain way, and that interrupts the process, like, so much more because you second guess and you criticize yourself and you worry and you compare, and it just doesn't serve anything.
20:44
Rachel: Like, the book still needs to get done.
20:46
Victorine Lieske: Right?
20:47
Rachel: Do the book the way that makes sense to you?
20:49
Victorine Lieske: Yeah, absolutely.
20:50
Rachel: Yeah. And I. I love having guests like you on the podcast, because with having so many books written, it's validating to know that, like, this, you can be successful.
21:01
Rachel: You can be, you know, just have a huge accomplishments without having to follow, like, the quote shoulds of the writing world.
21:11
Victorine Lieske: Yes. Well, and our brains are all different, and we acknowledge that.
21:14
Victorine Lieske: So why shouldn't our writing processes be all different?
21:18
Rachel: Exactly.
21:19
Rachel: That's, like, peak what we teach.
21:21
Rachel: That's top of the line.
21:23
Rachel: And I'm also, like, a neurodivergent person.
21:26
Rachel: So, incredibly, things are different.
21:29
Rachel: My brain works so much different than Emily and other writers in our community.
21:34
Rachel: Everybody's unique.
21:36
Rachel: There's not a one size.
21:38
Victorine Lieske: I love that process.
21:39
Rachel: Yeah. So how long does this normally, like, take you, then, for the kind of idea inception to your stand and option editor?
21:46
Rachel: Because with a backlist of 30, I'm guessing, like, maybe to a year.
21:53
Victorine Lieske: So my first ten books took me about a year each.
21:59
Victorine Lieske: And then after that, I actually realized I can write faster than that.
22:04
Rachel: Yeah.
22:05
Victorine Lieske: Because I was writing to my critique group and we met once a week, and so I would write a chapter a week.
22:12
Victorine Lieske: And then I moved away from that critique group and I was like, well, why am I only writing a chapter?
22:19
Victorine Lieske: That's silly.
22:21
Victorine Lieske: So now I can write a book in about three to four months, depending on my other schedule, because I have a lot of other things that I do.
22:28
Rachel: So, yeah, that's a pretty good timeline.
22:32
Rachel: I mean, that's quick, but it's also like, it feels like not too quick.
22:37
Rachel: Everybody's different as, yeah, that's awesome.
22:41
Rachel: That's really good.
22:42
Rachel: So you're on a little bit of a faster schedule now.
22:45
Victorine Lieske: Yes.
22:46
Rachel: Yeah, that's cool.
22:49
Rachel: When we kind of diverged, I guess we could talk about marketing still.
22:53
Rachel: There's so many things.
22:54
Victorine Lieske: Oh, yes.
22:55
Rachel: What I love about our podcast is that I can just talk about whatever we want.
23:00
Rachel: But if you're talking to, like, a writer who is new to, you know, sweet romance or trying to figure out, like, how to set themselves apart, what's kind of the first thing that you'd suggest that they do as far as skills development or tips to write in?
23:21
Victorine Lieske: I would say, number one, read in your genre that you want to write in.
23:25
Victorine Lieske: So definitely get to know and don't just read for enjoyment.
23:29
Victorine Lieske: Read to study.
23:31
Victorine Lieske: So, and you, if you're going to be indie publishing, read the indie books that are selling really well, because what you want to do is you want to study.
23:39
Victorine Lieske: All right, why is this selling really well?
23:41
Victorine Lieske: Why does this speak to the reader?
23:41
Victorine Lieske: Even if you personally didn't like the story, you need to figure out why so many people do like that story.
23:51
Victorine Lieske: And what is it about that that is speaking to that audience.
23:57
Victorine Lieske: And once you've read enough in that genre, you can pick up on similarities between the books that are selling really well.
24:05
Victorine Lieske: And you can figure out, all right, this is really pulling that reader in emotionally because of a, b, and c, and figure out what those things are and then figure out what your secret sauce is, you know, because every author has their own voice and every author puts their own secret thing in their book that makes them special.
24:26
Victorine Lieske: And I, that's why when authors say to me, but, you know, I'm just writing in a very crowded market, I don't want to, you know, be lost in the market.
24:39
Victorine Lieske: It's like, no, you aren't.
24:40
Victorine Lieske: Because you, no one can write your book like you can.
24:44
Rachel: Yeah.
24:45
Victorine Lieske: You know, so what you need to do is you need to get known out there.
24:51
Victorine Lieske: So even if you have to give your first book away, you know, it's that sample of what you can do, that secret sauce that you put in there so that others, you know, they'll come back and buy books two, three, four, and five and so on?
25:05
Rachel: Yeah, I 100% agree across.
25:09
Rachel: I feel like that's central advice for every writer because it's so important.
25:14
Rachel: And when you're in the thicket, like, when you're in the weeds of writing, and you're like, well, I don't want to stop to go read.
25:20
Rachel: Like, it feels like a waste of time.
25:22
Rachel: Like, no, no, no. You know, you.
25:24
Rachel: And you absorb so much, and you learn, like, what is it expected?
25:30
Rachel: So in.
25:30
Rachel: In sweet romance, do you feel like there are expectations in.
25:35
Rachel: In this genre?
25:36
Rachel: Genre?
25:36
Rachel: You know, like, in mystery, there's, like, you need to have a brush with death, and you need to have a confrontation with the villain.
25:42
Rachel: And, like, are there genre specific expectations that readers are looking for when they pick romance?
25:48
Rachel: Yeah.
25:50
Victorine Lieske: Yeah, absolutely.
25:51
Victorine Lieske: Without romance, it's all the fe.
25:53
Victorine Lieske: It's all about the feels, right?
25:53
Victorine Lieske: You want to give that warm, fuzzy, new love feeling to the reader.
26:00
Victorine Lieske: That's why they pick up a sweet romance, because they want that I'm in love for the first time again feeling.
26:08
Victorine Lieske: So, yeah, it was definitely all about the feels.
26:10
Rachel: The feels.
26:11
Rachel: Are you a fan of the end of act two, early act three breakup?
26:18
Victorine Lieske: So I am a fan of the breakup.
26:22
Victorine Lieske: I have done a couple where it's not like this big, huge separation breakup.
26:29
Victorine Lieske: It's an all is last moment, but then resolves quickly type of a thing.
26:34
Victorine Lieske: But I think you need something to happen that creates that huge tension, and it really needs to revolve around the relationship, because I've read other books where the big thing that happens is something outside of the relationship, and it made me feel like I didn't get that climax and that resolution from the relationship that I really wanted.
26:57
Rachel: Yeah. So, like, in your example that you were sharing earlier with our twins, like that, I'm imagining that moment where the truth comes out.
27:07
Rachel: Like, that would be.
27:08
Rachel: That's relational, because he's been lying not only to the world, which is fine, but lying to him.
27:14
Rachel: And so that comes out a lot.
27:16
Rachel: But if it was just lying to the world and not lying to him, it wouldn't be the same.
27:21
Victorine Lieske: It wouldn't be the same, definitely.
27:22
Victorine Lieske: And to dig that knife in deeper, his wound is he's been lied to.
27:28
Rachel: Yes.
27:29
Victorine Lieske: So, of course, that's what makes it worse, right?
27:33
Rachel: Yes. Yes. Do you use any.
27:35
Rachel: That's such a great question or a great point, because often in romance, our flaws are directly contradict, indirect conflict.
27:45
Rachel: They butt up against each other.
27:47
Rachel: And do you use any craft tools or character development tools or anything to help you flesh out these unique wounds or you just kind of run in with.
27:57
Rachel: Here's how they show up, and I need to make sure they butt up against each other.
28:01
Victorine Lieske: I mostly just kind of pants it and, you know, feel my way through it.
28:08
Victorine Lieske: But I am a huge fan of the emotion thesaurus and all of those books that go with that.
28:14
Victorine Lieske: And so I definitely use those books.
28:16
Victorine Lieske: Those are probably my favorite tool that I use in figuring out my characters.
28:23
Rachel: Yeah, I have it right here.
28:27
Rachel: Other books.
28:28
Rachel: So I try not to grab it, but it is right next to me.
28:30
Rachel: Yes, it is really helpful.
28:33
Rachel: And what I like about the Thesaurus books is that they show you they have options for if this, then check out this thing, and they show some of the ties between the two.
28:47
Rachel: But, yeah, it can be really easy to get lost in plot but miss out how these characters, they're, why not beats, why not love?
28:55
Rachel: But then develop them intentionally so that it's why not each other when it all comes out?
29:00
Victorine Lieske: Exactly. Yeah. And people ask me, how.
29:03
Victorine Lieske: How do you do this as you're writing?
29:03
Victorine Lieske: And, you know, when I first started writing, what I really wanted was somebody to go through their book and say, okay, this is why I'm writing this, and this is why I'm writing that.
29:16
Victorine Lieske: And so I wrote that book.
29:18
Victorine Lieske: I took one of my novels and I interrupted myself throughout the whole thing and.
29:23
Victorine Lieske: And said, okay, here's the first little bit.
29:26
Victorine Lieske: This is why I wrote it this way.
29:28
Victorine Lieske: And this is why he's saying this and all of that.
29:33
Victorine Lieske: And so that's my first how to book was that book.
29:37
Victorine Lieske: It's how to write a swoonworthy, sweet romance novel.
29:41
Victorine Lieske: And it's the bulk of it.
29:42
Victorine Lieske: I mean, I talk about how to write a romance in a chapter before I start, but the bulk of it is me just telling you why I wrote it the way I did.
29:51
Rachel: This is so funny.
29:52
Rachel: I've read that book.
29:53
Victorine Lieske: Have you really?
29:56
Rachel: I didn't even put it together, but I looked.
29:58
Rachel: I'm looking now at the COVID and I'm like, I've read that.
30:01
Rachel: I read that in 2002.
30:04
Victorine Lieske: That's awesome.
30:06
Rachel: The only reason I remember is because I read it on the patio of where I was living at the time.
30:10
Rachel: And so I have this, like, picture in my.
30:12
Victorine Lieske: Oh, my goodness.
30:13
Rachel: Wow. Yeah. That's super cool.
30:15
Rachel: I'm gonna put a link to your craft books for authors in our show notes.
30:20
Rachel: So, friends, if you're listening to this, go check out Victorine's offers here or options here because there's a lot here.
30:27
Rachel: And I have read that book and I really enjoyed it.
30:29
Rachel: It was really helpful to, like, these principles are applicable, you know, for romance across the board.
30:36
Rachel: It's not just, oh, if you want to write clean and there's no spice.
30:41
Victorine Lieske: Exactly.
30:42
Rachel: It's just this is how romance works.
30:43
Rachel: And there's push and pull.
30:46
Rachel: Yeah, that's awesome.
30:48
Rachel: I'm just laughing at that now.
30:52
Rachel: Okay, so let's switch gears really fast to talk about marketing.
30:57
Rachel: Yes, I have heard this is, I believe, a myth, but I think it feels true to a lot of new indie public or new indie authors that are trying to break into the market, as well as new adult romance writers that are trying to break into traditional.
31:16
Rachel: That spice is a must and that you won't get picked unless you have spice.
31:22
Rachel: And like, there's all of this discussion in romantic and in adult romance that it's got to have spice.
31:30
Rachel: We've had such a great conversation about why that's not necessary.
31:33
Rachel: But marketing wise, I do think there's a question.
31:37
Rachel: How do we market, like, what is the market?
31:39
Rachel: Or how do we attract readers that are looking for sweet, that don't want Spice?
31:45
Victorine Lieske: There is a huge market for sweet, and the best way to find your audience is to figure out what books that are sweet, that are out there, that are selling really well.
31:57
Victorine Lieske: Like, what do they look like?
31:59
Victorine Lieske: What's the COVID What's the blurb like?
31:59
Victorine Lieske: How are they showcasing that this is a sweet romance as opposed to a spicy romance?
32:06
Victorine Lieske: Most of that is just looking at the COVID Now, the number one reason why someone will purchase a book is because they've read that author before and they've liked what they've read and they.
32:24
Victorine Lieske: They want more of what they've read.
32:26
Victorine Lieske: So my marketing advice to people is always know that that is the number one reason why people will pick up a book.
32:34
Victorine Lieske: And you need to be out there giving away as much as you can so that people have read you so that they can go, oh, I really liked this book.
32:45
Victorine Lieske: Now I'm going to look for more books by that author and like, getting, like a book bub feature deal where you're giving away thousands of books, you know, is probably the best marketing that you can, that you can do.
32:59
Rachel: That feels like a very generous, in a, like, useful way.
33:06
Rachel: Like, we are generous to bring in readers, so we're getting something out of it.
33:10
Rachel: But it almost is a little counterintuitive because I'm sure some people listening are like, well, I don't want to give away.
33:15
Victorine Lieske: Yes, I give away a book, but absolutely.
33:18
Victorine Lieske: You know, we encounter that a lot.
33:20
Victorine Lieske: But most of the really mega sellers started out by giving away books.
33:27
Rachel: Yeah. Do they?
33:27
Rachel: Did you in particular?
33:31
Rachel: But is it more common to give away once you have three, four options?
33:38
Rachel: Should we be building a list before we take this strategy?
33:40
Victorine Lieske: Oh, it definitely makes sense to have more books than just the one you're giving away.
33:45
Victorine Lieske: But I have.
33:46
Victorine Lieske: I mean, that's how I started out, is giving away my very first book.
33:51
Victorine Lieske: And the nice thing about especially giving away on Amazon is their algorithms.
33:58
Victorine Lieske: If you have a nice big surge of a ton of people going to your page and then following through with a purchase, they're like, oh, this book is popular.
34:06
Victorine Lieske: And so they start, you know, showing your book to other people.
34:10
Victorine Lieske: And so even if I do a free book on book one of a series, that will make book one of the series sell really well after it goes back to paid, it just, it just does.
34:20
Victorine Lieske: And then the rest of the books sell, too.
34:22
Victorine Lieske: But it's a nice big boost in visibility.
34:28
Rachel: Yeah, that makes tons of sense from the advertising, like the algorithm perspective from Amazon.
34:38
Rachel: I mean, it would work like that.
34:40
Rachel: That's smart.
34:41
Rachel: Maybe I'll have to incorporate some of these strategies.
34:47
Rachel: Well, this has been amazing.
34:50
Rachel: Before we talk about where people can find you, anything else on your mind?
34:55
Rachel: Clean romance.
34:56
Rachel: Sweet romance.
34:57
Rachel: What do people need to know?
34:59
Victorine Lieske: All right, so I'll just give you my best marketing tips, because people ask me about marketing all the time and the way that I have been able to be successful, I owe it all to writing to market.
35:11
Victorine Lieske: So I would say if you want to be successful, read a lot in your genre.
35:16
Victorine Lieske: Look at how things are packaged.
35:18
Victorine Lieske: Make sure you're packaging your book professionally.
35:21
Victorine Lieske: And so it looks very similar to the top selling books in your genre and craft those blurbs like the ones that are selling really well.
35:30
Victorine Lieske: And if you package it professionally so that it looks like something a reader who is looking for that type of book wants to read, that is the secret to selling books.
35:42
Victorine Lieske: So I always say the secret to selling books is knowing what readers want and giving it to them.
35:47
Rachel: Yes.
35:48
Victorine Lieske: I mean, it sounds really simple, but that's what it really all boils down to.
35:53
Rachel: I 100% agree.
35:55
Rachel: And on my side, I do think that's why my book has been really well received, because I read so much in that genre, I knew who I was writing for.
36:05
Victorine Lieske: Exactly.
36:06
Rachel: And, like, was meeting those people's expectations and subverting them where I wanted to.
36:12
Rachel: But, yeah, it is.
36:13
Rachel: It is really impactful.
36:15
Rachel: So if you're listening, like, what do I do?
36:17
Rachel: Read.
36:18
Victorine Lieske: Yes.
36:18
Rachel: Right now, go read a lot.
36:20
Rachel: Then, as you said, study.
36:22
Rachel: I think that's so important.
36:24
Victorine Lieske: And go to a lot of conferences because conference classes are amazing, and they helped me a ton, too.
36:30
Rachel: That's awesome.
36:31
Rachel: I have been to one.
36:33
Rachel: We started our business in 2019, and then Covid happened.
36:37
Rachel: Then I had a child.
36:40
Rachel: I was pregnant when Covid hit.
36:44
Rachel: So then all that stopped.
36:47
Rachel: And I went to one conference this spring, and it was a nightmare.
36:50
Victorine Lieske: Oh, no.
36:53
Rachel: I need to find more.
36:54
Rachel: I need to get back into the conference circuit.
36:56
Victorine Lieske: Yes.
36:57
Rachel: But I 100% agree.
36:59
Rachel: Learning, absorbing.
37:01
Rachel: That's incredible.
37:02
Rachel: I think you're so right.
37:04
Rachel: So where can people find you in your work?
37:04
Rachel: You have tons of fiction.
37:07
Rachel: You also have nonfiction.
37:09
Victorine Lieske: Yes. So my website is probably the best place to go.
37:12
Victorine Lieske: Victorinelisky.com.
37:14
Victorine Lieske: and I know it's really hard to.
37:16
Rachel: Spell, so link in the show notes.
37:19
Victorine Lieske: Find a link.
37:20
Victorine Lieske: Yes.
37:22
Victorine Lieske: I don't know why I decided to use my real name to publish only after a few books out.
37:28
Victorine Lieske: I'm like, this is really dumb.
37:29
Victorine Lieske: Why pick the hardest name to spell?
37:35
Victorine Lieske: Yeah.
37:36
Victorine Lieske: No, my website is probably the easiest place to find me.
37:39
Rachel: Amazing. Okay. Incredible.
37:41
Rachel: And then you mentioned earlier that you do a lot, and I know you have some other things.
37:47
Rachel: I mean, are you going to conferences?
37:49
Rachel: Are you doing podcasting?
37:49
Rachel: Are you, you know, where else can people engage with you to Instagram, social media?
37:55
Victorine Lieske: Yes. So me and a fellow friend of mine named Michelle, we run a group called the Writing Gals, and we have a Facebook group, and we have a yearly conference that we put out virtually.
38:08
Victorine Lieske: And so we're gearing up.
38:09
Victorine Lieske: That'll be in October.
38:10
Victorine Lieske: We're gearing up to release all the classes for that.
38:15
Victorine Lieske: We usually have, like, 50 classes for our conference.
38:18
Victorine Lieske: Yeah.
38:19
Victorine Lieske: And they're all, you know, about marketing and about business related stuff and about writing, the craft of writing and all that stuff.
38:26
Victorine Lieske: And we're both romance writers, and so we have a lot of romance type stuff in that conference as well.
38:33
Victorine Lieske: And what we've done is, since we've been doing this for quite a while, we have past conference classes that we have stuck into the writing Gals Academy, which is just $9.95 a month, and you can get some past conference classes that still apply to today.
38:49
Victorine Lieske: And so we have that, which is awesome.
38:51
Victorine Lieske: And then I do teach at a lot of conferences.
38:54
Victorine Lieske: I'm teaching at one in Arizona in September, and I have taught at 20 books conference, Vegas.
39:03
Victorine Lieske: I'm not asked to teach at the brand new one.
39:07
Victorine Lieske: That's author nation, I think is what it's called.
39:10
Victorine Lieske: Coming in.
39:10
Victorine Lieske: But I will be there.
39:11
Victorine Lieske: I'll be in there in November.
39:13
Victorine Lieske: And I just love going to conferences, so.
39:15
Rachel: Yay. That's awesome.
39:17
Rachel: Which one are you going to in Arizona?
39:18
Rachel: That's where I'm from.
39:19
Victorine Lieske: Oh, my goodness.
39:20
Victorine Lieske: It's called ANwa, American Knight Riders association.
39:23
Victorine Lieske: And yeah, it's a great little conference.
39:26
Victorine Lieske: It's in Mesa, Arizona, so.
39:28
Rachel: Oh, fun.
39:28
Rachel: Okay. I was born in Indiana, but I was raised in Arizona and then two years ago moved to Colorado.
39:34
Rachel: So that's where I live now.
39:37
Rachel: But been to Mesa all the time.
39:39
Victorine Lieske: Oh, wow.
39:40
Victorine Lieske: That's amazing.
39:41
Rachel: That's awesome.
39:42
Rachel: Well, I hope you have.
39:43
Rachel: What time of year is it?
39:43
Rachel: September.
39:45
Victorine Lieske: You said the annual conference is September?
39:49
Victorine Lieske: Yes.
39:50
Rachel: It's gonna be beautiful.
39:51
Victorine Lieske: Yes.
39:54
Rachel: That's wonderful.
39:55
Rachel: Well, thank you again so much for joining us.
39:57
Rachel: Your expertise is amazing.
39:59
Victorine Lieske: Thank you.
40:00
Rachel: Appreciate your time.
40:01
Rachel: Everyone.
40:01
Rachel: Links are going to be in the show notes, so go check it out.
40:04
Rachel: Go get on Victrian's newsletter as well so you can stay up to date with all these incredible things.
40:10
Victorine Lieske: Great.
40:11
Rachel: Amazing.
40:12
Rachel: Thank you.
40:13
Victorine Lieske: Okay. Thank you so much.
40:14
Rachel: If you want to build a successful, fulfilling and sustainable writing life that works for you, you've got to get on our email list.
40:20
Rachel: Sign up now to get our free email course.
40:22
Rachel: The magic of character arcs.
40:23
Rachel: After seven days of email magic, you'll have the power to keep your readers flipping pages all through the night.
40:28
Rachel: Link in the show notes.
40:29
Rachel: We'll see you there.
40:30
Rachel: There.